tranny going to break

From : bryan swadenera melon

Q: it sounds like there isnt enough freeplay. it will likely have a cable-operated clutch and should have an adjustment at the top end of the cable where it passes thru the firewall. properly adjusted the pedal should move down about an inch 2.5cm before the clutch begins to release. and with the pedal all the way down you should get enough clutch release to put the transmission into gear w/ the engine running. if not all of the above youll be replacin parts. bryan howdy all i just moved to the cold barren lands of red deer alberta and i took my mothers 1988 dodge ram 50 for a drive tonite. the clutch was so bad i could barely drive it. i had to let it up all the way for the it to catch and shift. is there an adjustment i can change without taking to a garage. i know a fair amount about vehicles so. thanx .

Replies:

From : max340

where was anyone talking about drs as usuall this has nothing to do with the conversation at hand. what happened you just wake up from a nap it was a perfect simile something that totally eluded you. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : redneck tookover hellmax340

$2500-3000 usd. if they suceed i am certainly considering getting it done even if it means a extra trip to canada. i already installed the transmission pressure booster to get rid of the chatter when pulling a havy load it works pretty well. no sense going to canada just go here http//www.thepowershop.com these guys know exactly what is going on the owner chuck arnold runs a first class facility dealing with diesel pickups and motorhomes ill start watching reality tv shows when i can vote people off the planet. .

From : max340

maybe that is why my mechanic has such a loyal customer base his customers are loyal because they pay him id ask you to make sense but that has proven futile too many times. and you are a bankrupt bar bouncer. just saying maybe. i am lol do tell where did you get this idea amusing as always. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : max340

why they cant fix it without diagnosing it and it simply is part of the cost pf doing business. which as you note is passed on to the customer. thats why they charge for it. ultimately the customer pays for it anyway so what is the point of charging for it as a separate item to show the customer how their money is spent how much time it takes to do each portion of the job. simply put its an added customer service in a world where simply saying you owe me $$$ the car is fixed wouldnt and shouldnt be accepted by the customer. do you guarantee your diagnosis to be accurate and if not what write do you have charging for it yup with todays diagnostic accuracy isnt a real issue particularly if it can be proven with printouts etc that the diagnostic was done correctly and the results followed. thus since the paper trail is there the shop has every write where did you learn english to write a bill of sale on services including diagnostic rendered. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : max340

so what do you think that this expensive equipment serves no benefit to the shop that bought it well if they cannot charge for its use it serves no purpose except to shorten repair time lowering income while they pay for its purchase. that equipment allows them to repair vehicles that they would probably have to turn away and to do the jobs that they do take on faster. true. however if you do not like being charged for the service they provide you can go elsewhere. that is still no excuse to rape the customer by adding an extra charge for a service that they have to do anyway to find the problem. such bullshit shows a lack of knowledge. a fee for a diagnostic hookup is far cheaper than an hourly rate for diagnostic without the electronics which would double triple or more the time taken on diagnostics. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. . 222 274688 20031229163534.29591.00001353@mb-m02.aol.com i dont know if they are restricting the chemistry or not but if you dont use genuine gm or ac delco power steering fluid youll be replacing what you put in with the genuine stuff to get your power steering to work honda is pretty much the same way neither company appears to be sharing their chemistry with the aftermarket now if the aftermarket cant get the chemistry right for power steering fluid maybe its not such a bad idea to restrict sharing for something as valuable as a current automotive automatic transmission why should chryco be doing warranty repairs on its transmissions if the aftermarket trans fluid caused the problems but are both honda and gm restricting the chemistry of these fluids or is the demand so light for such specific fluids that the aftermarket just sees no profit in manufacturing and marketing them ill start watching reality tv shows when i can vote people off the planet. .

From : redneck tookover hell

if you take it in to get it fixed then you should pay to get it fixed its too bad somebody didnt pay to get your parents fixed before the best part of you ran down your mothers leg ill start watching reality tv shows when i can vote people off the planet. .

From : tbone

why they cant fix it without diagnosing it and it simply is part of the cost pf doing business. which as you note is passed on to the customer. thats why they charge for it. you mean using itemization to jack up the bill and increase profits. ultimately the customer pays for it anyway so what is the point of charging for it as a separate item to show the customer how their money is spent how much time it takes to do each portion of the job. that can be done just like in the past by tracking the time as the job is completed. simply put its an added customer service in a world where simply saying you owe me $$$ the car is fixed wouldnt and shouldnt be accepted by the customer. neither should they accept added charges from nothing more than creative accounting. do you guarantee your diagnosis to be accurate and if not what write do you have charging for it yup with todays diagnostic accuracy isnt a real issue particularly if it can be proven with printouts etc that the diagnostic was done correctly and the results followed. thus since the paper trail is there the shop has every write where did you learn english to write a bill of sale on services including diagnostic rendered. yea yea yea. i know that i used the wrong word get over it. what do you do for the customer if your diagnosis proves to be wrong -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

shaking at gm lately no matter how good lutz was as at product development if you dont have good design people in the trenches turning out ideas then you dont have squat. besides he was vice-chairman when he left. thats a long way from product manager/designer. anything published by any automotive rag along those lines automotive yes if theres an on-line reference please quote the article. but i dont expect you read industry publications if they dont require a subscription and im sufficiently motivated sure. im usually too busy reading other non-automotive industry publications. -- you strike me as more of a consumer reports guy youd be wrong. ok maybe once every few years when im in the market for a dishwasher or fridge. or maybe car and driver... only when they review radar detectors. someone who likes magazines that do his thinking for him like your industry publications is that why you read them . 222 274709 9l2dnbrqb8jezm2irvn-vw@comcast.com so what do you think that this expensive equipment serves no benefit to the shop that bought it well if they cannot charge for its use it serves no purpose except to shorten repair time lowering income while they pay for its purchase. lowering income talk about lack of knowledge. shortening the time to repair allows for more repairs and more profits from the sale of parts alone. that equipment allows them to repair vehicles that they would probably have to turn away and to do the jobs that they do take on faster. true. however if you do not like being charged for the service they provide you can go elsewhere. funny how the garages all seemed to do just fine without this bs charge until it became the popular thing to do recently. that is still no excuse to rape the customer by adding an extra charge for a service that they have to do anyway to find the problem. such bullshit shows a lack of knowledge. a fee for a diagnostic hookup is far cheaper than an hourly rate for diagnostic without the electronics which would double triple or more the time taken on diagnostics. a fee for a diagnostic is nothing more than creative accounting to charge extra for a process that they would have to do anyway and used to do for free. funny how the auto parts stores can do this same service for nothing even if you dont buy the part from them. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

tom lawrence wrote the throttle position sensor i believe is easy to replace. i have not had to do so myself though. i believe it runs about $150 at the dealer. $43 list price - can be had for about $30 if you have a nice dealer. takes all of 5 minutes to replace. youll need a torx screwdriver t-15 maybe when my tps went out on my 2000 ram the dealer had stated it was about $150+parts but they replaced it under warranty so i never saw the actual price. at that price its easier to replace it yourself rather than take it to the dealer where you often pay around $75 for diagnoses + parts + lab

From : budd cochran

happy new year! havent you heard about the new interpretive english being taught were all words have randomly selected meanings as selected by the author and/or the reader -- budd cochran in tribute to the united states of america and the state of israel two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. ----------------------------------------- why they cant fix it without diagnosing it and it simply is part of the cost pf doing business. which as you note is passed on to the customer. thats why they charge for it. ultimately the customer pays for it anyway so what is the point of charging for it as a separate item to show the customer how their money is spent how much time it takes to do each portion of the job. simply put its an added customer service in a world where simply saying you owe me $$$ the car is fixed wouldnt and shouldnt be accepted by the customer. do you guarantee your diagnosis to be accurate and if not what write do you have charging for it yup with todays diagnostic accuracy isnt a real issue particularly if it can be proven with printouts etc that the diagnostic was done correctly and the results followed. thus since the paper trail is there the shop has every write where did you learn english to write a bill of sale on services including diagnostic rendered. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : max340

lowering income talk about lack of knowledge. shortening the time to repair allows for more repairs and more profits from the sale of parts alone. lol yup you have a lack of knowledge and obviously do not know the way the business operates. funny how the garages all seemed to do just fine without this bs charge until it became the popular thing to do recently. um lol its not the recently popular thing to do its been going on for years its just become popular among you consumers to want it listed as a line item on the bill and thats not a bad thing. a fee for a diagnostic is nothing more than creative accounting to charge extra for a process that they would have to do anyway and used to do for free. used to do for free lol funny how the auto parts stores can do this same service for nothing even if you dont buy the part from them. funny how the tool they let you borrow is so simple it couldnt compare to the otc and snap on tools. the stuff they have at the parts stores does the same damn thing you can do at home with a paperclip or on mopars a simple series of key on/key off switching. and that device tells you about as much as the home remedies.... a code. unfortunately codes dont tell it all. if you think the tool at the parts store is a great deal have at it but itll never replace a computer interface with diagnostics and a good tech thet knows how to read more than codes. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : tbone

they can also read errors known by the computer that in many cases point directly to the failed component. lol sure it may point directly to the failed component but why did the component fail age bad wire spike in voltage physical damage moisture total immersion bad protection from elements mechanical failure that was repaired by the owner that then scratched his head and said hmmm it still wont start i wonder why but the owner failed to mention that detail to the technician...... who cares could you spin any faster unless the reason is obvious or constant it is highly unlikely that the tech is going to do anything more than replace the part and see what happens. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : max340

that may just get me to come out from my veil of secrecy oooohhhhhh... its colonel flagg!!! the wind broke its leg....... veil of secrecy thats funny....... jackas we all have a veil of secrecy on here wtf are ya gonna do post name address and a pic of your ass who gives a fuck who you are all that matters is that you continue to behave like some stupid television sitcom and make an ass of yourself by acting stupid and then watching you fade away as the episode closes. then we turn off the tube and go on with life. remember like you said its not real.... or is it we can tell an awful lot about how you think by adding alcohol or anonymity to your personality. if it aint real start acting your age or turn off the power. or keep amusing us..... max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : budd cochran

always remember denny there are folks in the world that think if you go to a doctor and he tells you have anything incurable including the common cold you shouldnt have to pay for the office visit. -- budd cochran in tribute to the united states of america and the state of israel two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. ----------------------------------------- on sun 28 dec 2003 012529 gmt gary glaenzer nobulltrans@mchsi.com wrote tom lawrence wrote the throttle position sensor i believe is easy to replace. i have not had to do so myself though. i believe it runs about $150 at the dealer. $43 list price - can be had for about $30 if you have a nice dealer. takes all of 5 minutes to replace. youll need a torx screwdriver t-15 maybe when my tps went out on my 2000 ram the dealer had stated it was about $150+parts but they replaced it under warranty so i never saw the actual price. at that price its easier to replace it yourself rather than take it to the dealer where you often pay around $75 for diagnoses + parts + labor. would it be a bad idea to have the dealer or independent shop diagnose the problem and then you could put the part on yourself if it wasnt too difficult seems like guessing without diagnosing would get very expensive quickly. yes it does but some folks have this thing about allowing a qualified person to diagnose a problem they have this fixation on the amount charged for the diagnosis believing that paying 30 to 60 bucks for what they peceive as a tiny amount of work as a rip off they fail to take into account the investment in service manuals scan tools updates for scan tools new cables for scan tools time spent on the phone with tech services time spent sitting in a classroom learning more about modern day systems the inevitable unbillable hours spent on the first time this problem came thru the door phone bill power bill internet service bill computer to give internet access to information services computer upgrades insurance on the premises insurance on tools advertising promotions give-aways to service organizations for their fund-raisers donations to charities interest on the loans to finance new equipment purchases taxes on the shop time spent doing bookkeeping for federal state and local governments time and effort spent to insure epa compliance and on and on and on ad nauseum they see only the act of plugging a scan tool into a vehicle pushing a few buttons and reading a code. never mind that the first time one of this model/year/make came in it was a half-day struggle to even get the scan tool to communicate because the vehicle maker and the scan tool provider are not exactly on friendly terms information-exchange-wise hell to this day im waiting for a call back from otc on why my otc-4000e will not read transmission data on full-size 97 gm trucks well get back to you in a week or so said the otc national service manage on sept 12 2000 in las vegas so let em rant and rave and go on with their its cheaper to replace it nothing you or i will say can convince them that a fee for diagnosis is a bargain........................ maybe it depends on the mechanic gary. now for my sons bmw i got a mechanic who i do pay for the diagnostic but he figures it is part of the deal in fixing the thing. i take it to him and he tells me what is wrong with it. then he charges me to fix it not to diagnose it. seems a little strange gary to take it to you to pay $60 to tell me what you are going to charge me to fix it. i mean the reason that i would take it to you if i had like a 104 degree fever and wasnt acting rational that it is to fix it not to tell me that you are going to charge me $60 to tell me how much it costs to fix it. now on my dodge truck it is a whole different deal. it is under warranty so they just have to fix it. maybe that is the reason why you are still crawling under cars rather than hiring people to crawl under cars gary; you dont have any diea what the hell you are doing. anyway im just saying gary nothing personal. now dont go and get all pissed off again. i kinda curious on something mr. daguy in your bmw example lets say a brake light did not work and the bulb was ok. it took your mechanic one hour to find a wire that was loose in a connector somewhere under the dash. now it only takes one minute to push the connector back in place. do you expect to pay the one hour your mechanic had in it finding the problem or just the one minute to fix it. dont really want to get into an argument over this just want to see where youre coming from. denny .

From : daguy

on tue 30 dec 2003 062959 gmt budd cochran mr-d150@citlink.net wrote always remember denny there are folks in the world that think if you go to a doctor and he tells you have anything incurable including the common cold or my mind you shouldnt have to pay for the office visit. where was anyone talking about drs as usuall this has nothing to do with the conversation at hand. what happened you just wake up from a nap you were gone so loooong budd it was nice. but then it is nice to have you back again to remind the rest of us how lucky we are to have a mind. .

From : yonziebudd cochran

roy@home.net wrote im right at the look around stage. gotta see what is out there and what will work gotcha. when you figure it out let me know. the titan 489 is a great all around tire. it isnt the best at anything but it does everything good. the 589 to me is the ultimate trail tire offering better mud and rock capability than the 489 but slightly less lateral traction. the vampire edl is the ultimate mud tire. the lugs are 2 deep! since you can only get the edl in a 28 tire though its not an option for most. your 700 would have no problem turning it though. the vampire asx in 26 is what i ran on my arctic cat which is now sold btw for several years. its an awesome mud tire but not so great as a general purpose trail tire no lateral traction. atv tirs are as versatile as atvs in that there is something for every need. i guess first you should decide on what you need. thanks nate. i guess atv tires are like everything else kinda hard to get one that does all things perfectly. so gotta figure where to compromise. roy sounds like youre talking about marriage dale .

From : max340

which as you note is passed on to the customer. thats why they charge for it. you mean using itemization to jack up the bill and increase profits. no i mean showing what theyve been charging you for that you didnt know about before. exactly like i said until you tried to twist it. that can be done just like in the past by tracking the time as the job is completed. unfortunately no it cannot and youve had this explained to you. you simply dont like the way it is and continue to whine about it. so be it. neither should they accept added charges from nothing more than creative accounting. its hardly creative accounting. again this is like trying to tell a teenager how things work. you know it all and damn those that say differently. yea yea yea. i know that i used the wrong word get over it. if you know it then act like you have the degree you claim and speak write the language properly. what do you do for the customer if your diagnosis proves to be wrong that would be up to the shop and customer on a case by case basis. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : max340

happy new year! same to you budd great time for new beginnings. havent you heard about the new interpretive english being taught were all words have randomly selected meanings as selected by the author and/or the reader sounds sorta like it depends on how you define the word is...... some people forgot that the reason why language is a standardized set of words phrases definitions and sentence structure is so thoughts and ideas with meaning can be described with a level of accuracy that conveys these thoughts and ideas. instead some figure its a good way to muddle those thoughts and ideas so they can hide behind the meaning and push an agenda if they so desire. sounds like an immature kid trying to hide wrongdoing from a parent. but then weve come to expect that from the parties in question. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : tbone

on tue 30 dec 2003 141013 gmt gary glaenzer nobulltrans@mchsi.com wrote on tue 30 dec 2003 062959 gmt budd cochran mr-d150@citlink.net wrote always remember denny there are folks in the world that think if you go to a doctor and he tells you have anything incurable including the common cold or my mind you shouldnt have to pay for the office visit. where was anyone talking about drs as usuall this has nothing to do with the conversation at hand. what happened you just wake up from a nap simile look it up lol. what a hoot. you guys are a hoot. have you read this thread. tbone and i got you in a huff over nothing. nothing at all. you are way too easy. ah life is a wonderful thing. lol how true. but you had better watch out or budd will start accusing us of being the same person again. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : budd cochran

we spent a great christmas with my oldest son who got home on leave and now waiting for his discharge date to come around so he can plan for his schooling at wyoming tech. our new years celebration will probably be about as wild as last years . . . ..cutting zs instead of rugs. some folks also cant define what sex is either so what can be expected of persons of the same inclinations if you accept for sake of discussion only that mankind did at one time grunt out gutteral sounds in lieu of a true language then if they never developed clear meanings and definitions for those sounds the human race would never have been able to get itself out of those caves and into an organized society. -- budd cochran in tribute to the united states of america and the state of israel two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. ----------------------------------------- happy new year! same to you budd great time for new beginnings. havent you heard about the new interpretive english being taught were all words have randomly selected meanings as selected by the author and/or the reader sounds sorta like it depends on how you define the word is...... some people forgot that the reason why language is a standardized set of words phrases definitions and sentence structure is so thoughts and ideas with meaning can be described with a level of accuracy that conveys these thoughts and ideas. instead some figure its a good way to muddle those thoughts and ideas so they can hide behind the meaning and push an agenda if they so desire. sounds like an immature kid trying to hide wrongdoing from a parent. but then weve come to expect that from the parties in question. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : tbone

on tue 30 dec 2003 131411 -0500 tbone fatchance@noway.now wrote on tue 30 dec 2003 141013 gmt gary glaenzer nobulltrans@mchsi.com wrote on tue 30 dec 2003 062959 gmt budd cochran mr-d150@citlink.net wrote always remember denny there are folks in the world that think if you go to a doctor and he tells you have anything incurable including the common cold or my mind you shouldnt have to pay for the office visit. where was anyone talking about drs as usuall this has nothing to do with the conversation at hand. what happened you just wake up from a nap simile look it up lol. what a hoot. you guys are a hoot. have you read this thread. tbone and i got you in a huff over nothing. nothing at all. you are way too easy. ah life is a wonderful thing. lol how true. but you had better watch out or budd will start accusing us of being the same person again. that makes it even better. if they spin any more they are gonna pass out. happy new year by the way. same to you. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

on wed 31 dec 2003 052020 gmt budd cochran mr-d150@citlink.net wrote no you should **guy. there is no shame in being either a cook or a janitor. true unless you try to pass yourself off as king turd on shit island as you do. at some time in your life one fed you in spite of the fact you didnt deserve it and the other cleaned up the mess you made. ugly visual ignored. of course youre convinced that comments such as this also show you have more class and prove you to be too superior to anyone in the group. not anyone but certainly to you gary and maxie. all you really prove with such bigoted comments is how little class you really have. yeah sure budd. btw since you and tom never argue are always in complete agreement and often write with the same mannerisms its easy to conclude you to be one and the same. im surprised no one else has noticed. yeah sure budd. once again you are the brilliant genius. now let us just suppose that we chose to insist that we are not the same person. let us just suppose that we could prove that and under the right circumstances would be willing to do just that. would you care to put some money on this brilliant theory or yours now that may just get me to come out from my veil of secrecy budd. think about it. if he agrees to this i want my cut of the money g. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : gary glaenzer

tom lawrence wrote the throttle position sensor i believe is easy to replace. i have not had to do so myself though. i believe it runs about $150 at the dealer. $43 list price - can be had for about $30 if you have a nice dealer. takes all of 5 minutes to replace. youll need a torx screwdriver t-15 maybe when my tps went out on my 2000 ram the dealer had stated it was about $150+parts but they replaced it under warranty so i never saw the actual price. at that price its easier to replace it yourself rather than take it to the dealer where you often pay around $75 for diagnoses + parts + labor. would it be a bad idea to have the dealer or independent shop diagnose the problem and then you could put the part on yourself if it wasnt too difficult seems like guessing without diagnosing would get very expensive quickly. yes it does but some folks have this thing about allowing a qualified person to diagnose a problem they have this fixation on the amount charged for the diagnosis believing that paying 30 to 60 bucks for what they peceive as a tiny amount of work as a rip off if it is a tiny amount of work then it is a rip-off. perceive as a tiny amount of work jesus will you learn to read if all that they are doing is plugging in a code reader then it is a tiny amount of work no perception required. learn how to comprehend. plug it in enter vehicle go to proper screens run tests then interpret what the information means contrary to public belief the scan tool does not tell what parts to replace all it can do is give an indication of what the ecm expected to see at a certain point but did not see .

From : gary glaenzer

on tue 30 dec 2003 062959 gmt budd cochran mr-d150@citlink.net wrote always remember denny there are folks in the world that think if you go to a doctor and he tells you have anything incurable including the common cold or my mind you shouldnt have to pay for the office visit. where was anyone talking about drs as usuall this has nothing to do with the conversation at hand. what happened you just wake up from a nap simile look it up .

From : daguy

on tue 30 dec 2003 065227 gmt budd cochran mr-d150@citlink.net wrote happy new year! havent you heard about the new interpretive english being taught were all words have randomly selected meanings as selected by the author and/or the reader .

From : gary glaenzer

lowering income talk about lack of knowledge. shortening the time to repair allows for more repairs and more profits from the sale of parts alone. lol yup you have a lack of knowledge and obviously do not know the way the business operates. funny how the garages all seemed to do just fine without this bs charge until it became the popular thing to do recently. um lol its not the recently popular thing to do its been going on for years its just become popular among you consumers to want it listed as a line item on the bill and thats not a bad thing. hes one of the have your cake and eat it too crowd max he bitches because its a separate item but if its included as part of the total labor hell bitch that its a separate operation and he shouldnt be charge for part of the repair. the bottom line is that he expects free diagnosis so he and his beer-swilling buddies can go to autozone buy the part and put it on and then bitch when it doesnt cure the problem. .

From : max340

hes one of the have your cake and eat it too crowd max yup. he bitches because its a separate item but if its included as part of the total labor hell bitch that its a separate operation and he shouldnt be charge for part of the repair. he just bitches........ the bottom line is that he expects free diagnosis so he and his beer-swilling buddies can go to autozone buy the part and put it on and then bitch when it doesnt cure the problem. yup. unlike his business which he claimed at one point was some sort of computer programming where im sure he only charges for the time repairing the problem and not the time spent figuring out the problem so he can repair it. lol funny part is he seems to have no clue that any industrial repair service charges double and triple per hour what a shop dealing with the public charges. and that those companies charge by the hour from when they leave to come see you not just time spent on the job. if he had any clue what some of these suppliers to the industrial sector cost hed shut up and love the way he is treated. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : tom mitchelldaguy

gosh eric thanks for the praise. i figured id picked enough brains in here so i wanted to pay some of the vig on what i owe. i used to work for a think tank and we got graded on stuff like this -- tech reports had to be non-flowery top-down with all references! ..............tom we recently bought a 2004 ram 3500 dually for full-time 5th-wheel towing purposes 5er yet tbd. snip outstanding post nothing to add except this is the way a post is supposed to look!! thanks for taking the time to share your research and findings in an understandable straightforward manner with all supporting documentation hyperlinked!! what an outstanding post! thanks again eric .

From : daguy

on tue 30 dec 2003 141013 gmt gary glaenzer nobulltrans@mchsi.com wrote on tue 30 dec 2003 062959 gmt budd cochran mr-d150@citlink.net wrote always remember denny there are folks in the world that think if you go to a doctor and he tells you have anything incurable including the common cold or my mind you shouldnt have to pay for the office visit. where was anyone talking about drs as usuall this has nothing to do with the conversation at hand. what happened you just wake up from a nap simile look it up lol. what a hoot. you guys are a hoot. have you read this thread. tbone and i got you in a huff over nothing. nothing at all. you are way too easy. ah life is a wonderful thing. .

From : daguy

on 30 dec 2003 231608 gmt mopar440@aol.comnet.org redneck tookover hell wrote if you take it in to get it fixed then you should pay to get it fixed its too bad somebody didnt pay to get your parents fixed before the best part of you ran down your mothers leg man you just give some really ugly bottom drawer visuals red. but then we have come to expect that from you. still you really need to get a little class. ill start watching reality tv shows when i can vote people off the planet. .

From : budd cochran

watch out gary he was a mechanic for two whole months iirc and therefore knows it all . . .just ask him. -- budd cochran in tribute to the united states of america and the state of israel two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. ------ tom lawrence wrote the throttle position sensor i believe is easy to replace. i have not had to do so myself though. i believe it runs about $150 at the dealer. $43 list price - can be had for about $30 if you have a nice dealer. takes all of 5 minutes to replace. youll need a torx screwdriver t-15 maybe when my tps went out on my 2000 ram the dealer had stated it was about $150+parts but they replaced it under warranty so i never saw the actual price. at that price its easier to replace it yourself rather than take it to the dealer where you often pay around $75 for diagnoses + parts + labor. would it be a bad idea to have the dealer or independent shop diagnose the problem and then you could put the part on yourself if it wasnt too difficult seems like guessing without diagnosing would get very expensive quickly. yes it does but some folks have this thing about allowing a qualified person to diagnose a problem they have this fixation on the amount charged for the diagnosis believing that paying 30 to 60 bucks for what they peceive as a tiny amount of work as a rip off if it is a tiny amount of work then it is a rip-off. perceive as a tiny amount of work jesus will you learn to read if all that they are doing is plugging in a code reader then it is a tiny amount of work no perception required. learn how to comprehend. plug it in enter vehicle go to proper screens run tests then interpret what the information means contrary to public belief the scan tool does not tell what parts to replace all it can do is give an indication of what the ecm expected to see at a certain point but did not see .

From : tbone

on tue 30 dec 2003 203030 -0500 rathskellar rathskellartheslayer@hotmail.com wrote if you take it in to get it fixed then you should pay to get it fixed its too bad somebody didnt pay to get your parents fixed before the best part of you ran down your mothers leg maybe your mother shouldve swallowed. now lets see rathskellar when did i first hear that one gee i think it was in junior high school and that has been a long time ago. you really know how to throw in the zingers pal. lol. you can stand beside dudd gary and the maxie man. now lets see fuckshank. i first heard that when it was new. now go tell mommy its time to change your diaper. and this statement makes you look how old... maybe 12. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

you mean using itemization to jack up the bill and increase profits. so . . .when you go to a grocery store if they want to throw everything into bags and just take a wild guess at the total price it would be fine with you charging by the item is done everywhere tom. that can be done just like in the past by tracking the time as the job is completed. you spent how long working as a mechanic my step-dad used to tell me that when you tell one lie you have to tell five lies to cover it up then five more for covering each of them and soon you forget which set of lies you told to whom. if you ever worked in a shop you had to itemize your work and this subject wouldnt be so novel to you. typical grocery store bill bread $2.15 soda $1.95 ham $3.95 cheese $2.75 total $10.80 now the same bill as done by many garages. bread $2.15 soda $1.95 ham $3.95 cheese $2.75 price scanning $1.00 bagging $0.50 high weight movement the ham $0.75 bag $0.02 total $13.07 how about that nothing different was bought it just cost $2.27 more for nothing more than creative accounting to charge for things that are normally done and / or supplied anyway. i am fully aware of what itemization is and what it can do as well as rip off the customer. hell the phone and cable companies have been doing this for a while now as well. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : rathskellar

if you take it in to get it fixed then you should pay to get it fixed its too bad somebody didnt pay to get your parents fixed before the best part of you ran down your mothers leg maybe your mother shouldve swallowed. -- q. whats the difference between an english actuary and a sicilian actuary a. an english actuary can tell you how many people are going to die next year. a sicilian actuary can give you their names. .

From : daguy

on tue 30 dec 2003 203030 -0500 rathskellar rathskellartheslayer@hotmail.com wrote if you take it in to get it fixed then you should pay to get it fixed its too bad somebody didnt pay to get your parents fixed before the best part of you ran down your mothers leg maybe your mother shouldve swallowed. now lets see rathskellar when did i first hear that one gee i think it was in junior high school and that has been a long time ago. you really know how to throw in the zingers pal. lol. you can stand beside dudd gary and the maxie man. over. .

From : rathskellar

on tue 30 dec 2003 203030 -0500 rathskellar rathskellartheslayer@hotmail.com wrote if you take it in to get it fixed then you should pay to get it fixed its too bad somebody didnt pay to get your parents fixed before the best part of you ran down your mothers leg maybe your mother shouldve swallowed. now lets see rathskellar when did i first hear that one gee i think it was in junior high school and that has been a long time ago. you really know how to throw in the zingers pal. lol. you can stand beside dudd gary and the maxie man. now lets see fuckshank. i first heard that when it was new. now go tell mommy its time to change your diaper. .

From : budd cochran

you mean using itemization to jack up the bill and increase profits. so . . .when you go to a grocery store if they want to throw everything into bags and just take a wild guess at the total price it would be fine with you charging by the item is done everywhere tom. that can be done just like in the past by tracking the time as the job is completed. you spent how long working as a mechanic my step-dad used to tell me that when you tell one lie you have to tell five lies to cover it up then five more for covering each of them and soon you forget which set of lies you told to whom. if you ever worked in a shop you had to itemize your work and this subject wouldnt be so novel to you. -- budd cochran in tribute to the united states of america and the state of israel two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. ------ .

From : tbone

i dont claim to know it all budd just more than you. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving watch out gary he was a mechanic for two whole months iirc and therefore knows it all . . .just ask him. -- budd cochran in tribute to the united states of america and the state of israel two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. ------ tom lawrence wrote the throttle position sensor i believe is easy to replace. i have not had to do so myself though. i believe it runs about $150 at the dealer. $43 list price - can be had for about $30 if you have a nice dealer. takes all of 5 minutes to replace. youll need a torx screwdriver t-15 maybe when my tps went out on my 2000 ram the dealer had stated it was about $150+parts but they replaced it under warranty so i never saw the actual price. at that price its easier to replace it yourself rather than take it to the dealer where you often pay around $75 for diagnoses + parts + labor. would it be a bad idea to have the dealer or independent shop diagnose the problem and then you could put the part on yourself if it wasnt too difficult seems like guessing without diagnosing would get very expensive quickly. yes it does but some folks have this thing about allowing a qualified person to diagnose a problem they have this fixation on the amount charged for the diagnosis believing that paying 30 to 60 bucks for what they peceive as a tiny amount of work as a rip off if it is a tiny amount of work then it is a rip-off. perceive as a tiny amount of work jesus will you learn to read if all that they are doing is plugging in a code reader then it is a tiny amount of work no perception required. learn how to comprehend. plug it in enter vehicle go to proper screens run tests then interpret what the information means contrary to public belief the scan tool does not tell what parts to replace all it can do is give an indication of what the ecm expected to see at a certain point but did not see .

From : max340

they can also read errors known by the computer that in many cases point directly to the failed component. lol sure it may point directly to the failed component but why did the component fail age bad wire spike in voltage physical damage moisture total immersion bad protection from elements mechanical failure that was repaired by the owner that then scratched his head and said hmmm it still wont start i wonder why but the owner failed to mention that detail to the technician...... max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : max340

i never said that a diagnosis only should be for free but a 5 minute hookup and guess should not cost $60.00. if its a diagnostic hookup its not a guess. and if they are the ones repairing the vehicle then it should be included and not another cost on top of the repair charges. lol so why complain if they include it as a seperate item how would i know unless i see an extra hour that i know it didnt take to complete the repair. if you know so friggin much about the repair save the entire bill and do it yourself. i watched my boss at one shop take a 10 minute raft of shit from someone like you. after it he said hang on a second i want to double check the fix because i want you to be happy. took the car inside removed the part took the now unrepaired car back outside told him that all extra charges were taken care of and the visit was free. have a nice day and dont come back. turned out the guy didnt want to be charged for diagnostic but all he was charged for was diagnostic and a part. boss wrote it off as a good way to get rid of a bad customer. what could the jackass do complain that we hadnt charged him to not fix the car whatever.... max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : budd cochran

as usual you have to cloud the discussion. in the grocery example those creative accounting charges you whine about are included in the prices of the purchases. i would hate to see how you would whine if they itemized completely and included employee bonuses future raises insurance training advertising etc. -- budd cochran in tribute to the united states of america and the state of israel two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. ----------------------------------------- you mean using itemization to jack up the bill and increase profits. so . . .when you go to a grocery store if they want to throw everything into bags and just take a wild guess at the total price it would be fine with you charging by the item is done everywhere tom. that can be done just like in the past by tracking the time as the job is completed. you spent how long working as a mechanic my step-dad used to tell me that when you tell one lie you have to tell five lies to cover it up then five more for covering each of them and soon you forget which set of lies you told to whom. if you ever worked in a shop you had to itemize your work and this subject wouldnt be so novel to you. typical grocery store bill bread $2.15 soda $1.95 ham $3.95 cheese $2.75 total $10.80 now the same bill as done by many garages. bread $2.15 soda $1.95 ham $3.95 cheese $2.75 price scanning $1.00 bagging $0.50 high weight movement the ham $0.75 bag $0.02 total $13.07 how about that nothing different was bought it just cost $2.27 more for nothing more than creative accounting to charge for things that are normally done and / or supplied anyway. i am fully aware of what itemization is and what it can do as well as rip off the customer. hell the phone and cable companies have been doing this for a while now as well. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : max340budd cochran

sure i do max and despite this bs i think that you do as well. that high tech equipment increases the shops ability speed and accuracy and all of these things lead to more money. lets assume for a minute that the work source is unlimited its not but well drop reality for a minute here and all hte time saved can be charged for on other jobs. is it fair to those other customers whose jobs that do not need the expensive diagnostic tools to charge them no. so those that need the service get charged for it. bullshit. it is now added to the bill for no other reason but to squeeze the maximum amount of money out of the customer. more whining. you dont know that and cannot prove it on anything more than a case by case basis. making a general assumption makes your statement incorrect. god forbid that anything is done anymore without charging top dollar for it. which tracks back to insurance rates cost of customers that fail to pay all of the bill hint whiners like yourself and restrictions on many of the fluids and byproducts of operating an auto repair facility. used to do for free lol yep i believe that it was once thought of as customer service. too bad that is a lost art. maybe it was maybe it wasnt but since cars are not as simple as they once were mechanics cannot see the electrons failing to do things properly costs for repairs are not as simple as they once were. you and the general public like all the cool stuff a modern fi engine does but you dont want to pay the extra cost when it fails to be cool i would agree with this is if the percentage of the people using them knew wtf they were doing but sadly that is not the case. lol maybe its not the case in your limited experience but overall most techs are very well trained. part of the reason the bill is so high is training costs. i know of at least three repair businesses in htis area that spend big dollars on getting training for thier guys even though they are not new car dealers. sure there are places that dont spend a dime on training but you have the choice to go elsewhere. even the dealers tend to just guess if the computer does not tell them exactly what is wrong at least from what im seeing. a dealer thats taking a guess is a good one to stay away from. instead of bitching about the cost bitch about what you get for your money. perhaps you should learn how to use a spell checker before criticizing others. i dont criticize your spelling i criticize your lack of grammatical skills in picking word form. i already said that a complex diagnosis that takes time and skill should be charged for separately unless it is part of the repair itself. nice spin. obviously a spin but thats your modus operandi. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : daguy

on wed 31 dec 2003 020518 gmt budd cochran mr-d150spam@citlink.net wrote watch out gary he was a mechanic for two whole months iirc and therefore knows it all . . .just ask him. well even then budd that is more than a cook in the national guard and a janitor for life. there is a saying about people that live in glass houses........... you need to review that one good buddy. .

From : max340

plug it in enter vehicle go to proper screens run tests then interpret what the information means ok. that is about 10 minutes if you are slow. that depends directly on the problem and how complex it is. contrary to public belief the scan tool does not tell what parts to replace that is not always true. are you sure that you have ever used one yourself the scan tool cannot ever say what parts need to be replaced it can only tell you what the onboard systems know. there are no scanning/diagnostic tools that have a screen that reads replace . max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : tbone

tom lawrence wrote the throttle position sensor i believe is easy to replace. i have not had to do so myself though. i believe it runs about $150 at the dealer. $43 list price - can be had for about $30 if you have a nice dealer. takes all of 5 minutes to replace. youll need a torx screwdriver t-15 maybe when my tps went out on my 2000 ram the dealer had stated it was about $150+parts but they replaced it under warranty so i never saw the actual price. at that price its easier to replace it yourself rather than take it to the dealer where you often pay around $75 for diagnoses + parts + labor. would it be a bad idea to have the dealer or independent shop diagnose the problem and then you could put the part on yourself if it wasnt too difficult seems like guessing without diagnosing would get very expensive quickly. yes it does but some folks have this thing about allowing a qualified person to diagnose a problem they have this fixation on the amount charged for the diagnosis believing that paying 30 to 60 bucks for what they peceive as a tiny amount of work as a rip off if it is a tiny amount of work then it is a rip-off. perceive as a tiny amount of work jesus will you learn to read if all that they are doing is plugging in a code reader then it is a tiny amount of work no perception required. learn how to comprehend. plug it in enter vehicle go to proper screens run tests then interpret what the information means ok. that is about 10 minutes if you are slow. contrary to public belief the scan tool does not tell what parts to replace that is not always true. are you sure that you have ever used one yourself all it can do is give an indication of what the ecm expected to see at a certain point but did not see they can also read errors known by the computer that in many cases point directly to the failed component. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : daguy

on tue 30 dec 2003 205258 -0500 rathskellar rathskellartheslayer@hotmail.com wrote on tue 30 dec 2003 203030 -0500 rathskellar rathskellartheslayer@hotmail.com wrote if you take it in to get it fixed then you should pay to get it fixed its too bad somebody didnt pay to get your parents fixed before the best part of you ran down your mothers leg maybe your mother shouldve swallowed. now lets see rathskellar when did i first hear that one gee i think it was in junior high school and that has been a long time ago. you really know how to throw in the zingers pal. lol. you can stand beside dudd gary and the maxie man. now lets see fuckshank. i first heard that when it was new. now go tell mommy its time to change your diaper. whew dont get your little panties all bunched up slayer. man talk about not being able to take it you are pretty weak rathskellar the slayer. hey did you think up that name all by yourself .

From : max340max340

man you just give some really ugly bottom drawer visuals red. but then we have come to expect that from you. still you really need to get a little class. funny part is even without getting a little class he still has more than you. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : max340

and this statement makes you look how old... maybe 12. which would put him about two years ahead of you and *guy. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : max340

i am fully aware of what itemization is and what it can do as well as rip off the customer. hell the phone and cable companies have been doing this for a while now as well. poor poor pitiful you. what wont you whine about max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : budd cochran

which proves youre self-delusional. -- budd cochran in tribute to the united states of america and the state of israel two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. ----------------------------------------- i dont claim to know it all budd just more than you. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving watch out gary he was a mechanic for two whole months iirc and therefore knows it all . . .just ask him. -- budd cochran in tribute to the united states of america and the state of israel two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. ------ tom lawrence wrote the throttle position sensor i believe is easy to replace. i have not had to do so myself though. i believe it runs about $150 at the dealer. $43 list price - can be had for about $30 if you have a nice dealer. takes all of 5 minutes to replace. youll need a torx screwdriver t-15 maybe when my tps went out on my 2000 ram the dealer had stated it was about $150+parts but they replaced it under warranty so i never saw the actual price. at that price its easier to replace it yourself rather than take it to the dealer where you often pay around $75 for diagnoses + parts + labor. would it be a bad idea to have the dealer or independent shop diagnose the problem and then you could put the part on yourself if it wasnt too difficult seems like guessing without diagnosing would get very expensive quickly. yes it does but some folks have this thing about allowing a qualified person to diagnose a problem they have this fixation on the amount charged for the diagnosis believing that paying 30 to 60 bucks for what they peceive as a tiny amount of work as a rip off if it is a tiny amount of work then it is a rip-off. perceive as a tiny amount of work jesus will you learn to read if all that they are doing is plugging in a code reader then it is a tiny amount of work no perception required. learn how to comprehend. plug it in enter vehicle go to proper screens run tests then interpret what the information means contrary to public belief the scan tool does not tell what parts to replace all it can do is give an indication of what the ecm expected to see at a certain point but did not see .

From : budd cochran

no you should **guy. there is no shame in being either a cook or a janitor. at some time in your life one fed you in spite of the fact you didnt deserve it and the other cleaned up the mess you made. of course youre convinced that comments such as this also show you have more class and prove you to be too superior to anyone in the group. all you really prove with such bigoted comments is how little class you really have. btw since you and tom never argue are always in complete agreement and often write with the same mannerisms its easy to conclude you to be one and the same. im surprised no one else has noticed. --- budd cochran in tribute to the united states of america and the state of israel two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. ----------------------------------------- on wed 31 dec 2003 020518 gmt budd cochran mr-d150spam@citlink.net wrote watch out gary he was a mechanic for two whole months iirc and therefore knows it all . . .just ask him. well even then budd that is more than a cook in the national guard and a janitor for life. there is a saying about people that live in glass houses........... you need to review that one good buddy. .

From : daguy

on wed 31 dec 2003 052020 gmt budd cochran mr-d150@citlink.net wrote no you should **guy. there is no shame in being either a cook or a janitor. true unless you try to pass yourself off as king turd on shit island as you do. at some time in your life one fed you in spite of the fact you didnt deserve it and the other cleaned up the mess you made. ugly visual ignored. of course youre convinced that comments such as this also show you have more class and prove you to be too superior to anyone in the group. not anyone but certainly to you gary and maxie. all you really prove with such bigoted comments is how little class you really have. yeah sure budd. btw since you and tom never argue are always in complete agreement and often write with the same mannerisms its easy to conclude you to be one and the same. im surprised no one else has noticed. yeah sure budd. once again you are the brilliant genius. now let us just suppose that we chose to insist that we are not the same person. let us just suppose that we could prove that and under the right circumstances would be willing to do just that. would you care to put some money on this brilliant theory or yours now that may just get me to come out from my veil of secrecy budd. think about it. --- budd cochran in tribute to the united states of america and the state of israel two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. ----------------------------------------- on wed 31 dec 2003 020518 gmt budd cochran mr-d150spam@citlink.net wrote watch out gary he was a mechanic for two whole months iirc and therefore knows it all . . .just ask him. well even then budd that is more than a cook in the national guard and a janitor for life. there is a saying about people that live in glass houses........... you need to review that one good buddy. .

From : daguy

on wed 31 dec 2003 134253 gmt roy roy@home.net wrote just get me to come out from my veil a veil budd hes really dd bfg sorry but it was there and i had to. folks are getting tooo serious around here. it is the internet remember roy yep. hey i remember dd. now that was a good time. dd was a mess. .

From : budd cochran

on wed 31 dec 2003 052020 gmt budd cochran mr-d150@citlink.net wrote no you should **guy. there is no shame in being either a cook or a janitor. true unless you try to pass yourself off as king turd on shit island as you do. how much class is there in using profanity or demonstrating a lack of grammatical skills didnt you claim to have a college education yet you lack the civility of a high school graduate. iow no class. besides it would be far better to spend an eternal lifetime as either a cook or a janitor than to be like you. at some time in your life one fed you in spite of the fact you didnt deserve it and the other cleaned up the mess you made. ugly visual ignored. dont ignore it its you i speak of not myself and everytime you attack me you heap more dung upon your own head. ill bet its an improvement to the scenery in your locale. of course youre convinced that comments such as this also show you have more class and prove you to be too superior to anyone in the group. not anyone but certainly to you gary and maxie. unfortunately you havent the class it would take to be considered roadkill on the highway of life. do you think no one notices you cant form complete sentences all you really prove with such bigoted comments is how little class you really have. yeah sure budd. just as this shows a lack of ability to engage in a battle of wits . . . what no ammo btw since you and tom never argue are always in complete agreement and often write with the same mannerisms its easy to conclude you to be one and the same. im surprised no one else has noticed. yeah sure budd. once again you are the brilliant genius. now let us just suppose that we chose to insist that we are not the same person. let us just suppose that we could prove that and under the right circumstances would be willing to do just that. would you care to put some money on this brilliant theory or yours now that may just get me to come out from my veil of secrecy budd. think about it. lol i wouldnt waste my money on you churl. youve already demonstrated your dishonesty as has tom. --- budd cochran in tribute to the united states of america and the state of israel two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. ----------------------------------------- .

From : tbone

as usual you have to cloud the discussion. in the grocery example those creative accounting charges you whine about are included in the prices of the purchases. how does this cloud anything. is this your answer when you know that you are wrong. those charges are on top of the markup that already covers them it just allows them to increase their profits without obvious unreasonable markups. just as this example of mine shows the first one is the average grocery store and the second one is your way. both grocery stores have the same operating costs and the same markups yet the second one charges more and an idiot like you doesnt even see it and just goes along with it. i would hate to see how you would whine if they itemized completely and included employee bonuses future raises insurance training advertising etc. those costs are covered by the markup on the food. the costs of business in a garage are covered by the hourly charge and the markup on parts. the added diag charge is nothing more than a creative way to squeeze more money out of the customer. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbonetbone

then perhaps you should have asked what his reasons were instead of accusing/assuming he was abusing the truck. i did ask pinhead learn how to read. really ok here is what you said is there a particular reason that you want to do this or do you just want to abuse your vehicle right from the start the second portion of your request basically criticizes any change so you arent asking you are judging. once again you are wrong. but ill ask you then if you dont have a partcular need to further increase the impressive torque and performance of the diesel what exactly is the performance increase needed or going to be used for maybe if you had a better grasp of how the language worked or just of any sort of tact..... lol like tact has ever been a strong point in this group. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : daguy

on wed 31 dec 2003 055330 gmt budd cochran mr-d150@citlink.net wrote on wed 31 dec 2003 052020 gmt budd cochran mr-d150@citlink.net wrote no you should **guy. there is no shame in being either a cook or a janitor. true unless you try to pass yourself off as king turd on shit island as you do. how much class is there in using profanity or demonstrating a lack of grammatical skills fuck if i know. didnt you claim to have a college education yet you lack the civility of a high school graduate. iow no class. now clames that i now uv. besides it would be far better to spend an eternal lifetime as either a cook or a janitor than to be like you. your choice my friend. at some time in your life one fed you in spite of the fact you didnt deserve it and the other cleaned up the mess you made. ugly visual ignored. dont ignore it its you i speak of not myself and everytime you attack me you heap more dung upon your own head. ill bet its an improvement to the scenery in your locale. of course youre convinced that comments such as this also show you have more class and prove you to be too superior to anyone in the group. not anyone but certainly to you gary and maxie. unfortunately you havent the class it would take to be considered roadkill on the highway of life. do you think no one notices you cant form complete sentences fuck if i know/care. all you really prove with such bigoted comments is how little class you really have. yeah sure budd. just as this shows a lack of ability to engage in a battle of wits . . . what no ammo bwaahaaaaaaaaaa btw since you and tom never argue are always in complete agreement and often write with the same mannerisms its easy to conclude you to be one and the same. im surprised no one else has noticed. yeah sure budd. once again you are the brilliant genius. now let us just suppose that we chose to insist that we are not the same person. let us just suppose that we could prove that and under the right circumstances would be willing to do just that. would you care to put some money on this brilliant theory or yours now that may just get me to come out from my veil of secrecy budd. think about it. lol i wouldnt waste my money on you churl. youve already demonstrated your dishonesty as has tom. --- budd cochran in tribute to the united states of america and the state of israel two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. ----------------------------------------- over one more time my pen pal. .

From : roy

just get me to come out from my veil a veil budd hes really dd bfg sorry but it was there and i had to. folks are getting tooo serious around here. it is the internet remember roy .

From : tbone

i never said that a diagnosis only should be for free but a 5 minute hookup and guess should not cost $60.00. if its a diagnostic hookup its not a guess. not according to you or your buddy gary. like you said the tool cannot say exactly what is wrong or why only what is not right with expected readings. and if they are the ones repairing the vehicle then it should be included and not another cost on top of the repair charges. lol so why complain if they include it as a seperate item because including it as a seperate item allows them to double charge for the work or to create huge markups and justify it by breaking it down into a bunch of bs items creative accounting. how would i know unless i see an extra hour that i know it didnt take to complete the repair. if you know so friggin much about the repair save the entire bill and do it yourself. i do. the most of my car that has seen a garage with the exception of warranty work in the last 20 years was the transmission for my nissan. i watched my boss at one shop take a 10 minute raft of shit from someone like you. after it he said hang on a second i want to double check the fix because i want you to be happy. took the car inside removed the part took the now unrepaired car back outside told him that all extra charges were taken care of and the visit was free. have a nice day and dont come back. that sounds pretty childish and stupid on his part. instead of possibly losing some of the time and money on the job he lost even more time and all of the money on the job not to mention the possible loss of business due to word of mouth complaints. and if something happened to that car on the way to the next repair shop he could have been sued and rightfully so. turned out the guy didnt want to be charged for diagnostic but all he was charged for was diagnostic and a part. boss wrote it off as a good way to get rid of a bad customer. what could the jackass do complain that we hadnt charged him to not fix the car while this all sounds good what exactly was wrong with the vehicle how much was the diagnostic and how much was the part if he could remove it so quickly and easily it sounds like it was an easy part to replace and probably looked to be easy to diagnose as well. and btw the customer could complain that he damaged the car since he lied when he took it back into the shop and was therefore not authorized to remove the part. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

plug it in enter vehicle go to proper screens run tests then interpret what the information means ok. that is about 10 minutes if you are slow. that depends directly on the problem and how complex it is. really!!!! contrary to public belief the scan tool does not tell what parts to replace that is not always true. are you sure that you have ever used one yourself the scan tool cannot ever say what parts need to be replaced it can only tell you what the onboard systems know. there are no scanning/diagnostic tools that have a screen that reads replace . are we resorting to semantics again -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : gary glaenzer

you mean using itemization to jack up the bill and increase profits. so . . .when you go to a grocery store if they want to throw everything into bags and just take a wild guess at the total price it would be fine with you charging by the item is done everywhere tom. that can be done just like in the past by tracking the time as the job is completed. you spent how long working as a mechanic my step-dad used to tell me that when you tell one lie you have to tell five lies to cover it up then five more for covering each of them and soon you forget which set of lies you told to whom. if you ever worked in a shop you had to itemize your work and this subject wouldnt be so novel to you. typical grocery store bill bread $2.15 soda $1.95 ham $3.95 cheese $2.75 total $10.80 now the same bill as done by many garages. bread $2.15 soda $1.95 ham $3.95 cheese $2.75 price scanning $1.00 bagging $0.50 high weight movement the ham $0.75 bag $0.02 total $13.07 how about that nothing different was bought it just cost $2.27 more for nothing more than creative accounting to charge for things that are normally done and / or supplied anyway. i am fully aware of what itemization is and what it can do as well as rip off the customer. hell the phone and cable companies have been doing this for a while now as well. congratulations on proving yourself to be completely ignorant on the subject of pricing the last 4 items in your second list are included as part of the cost of the food items. no wonder you keep repeating the same stupid rhetoric over and over and over its because you have no idea how prices are determined. .

From : tbone

you mean using itemization to jack up the bill and increase profits. so . . .when you go to a grocery store if they want to throw everything into bags and just take a wild guess at the total price it would be fine with you charging by the item is done everywhere tom. that can be done just like in the past by tracking the time as the job is completed. you spent how long working as a mechanic my step-dad used to tell me that when you tell one lie you have to tell five lies to cover it up then five more for covering each of them and soon you forget which set of lies you told to whom. if you ever worked in a shop you had to itemize your work and this subject wouldnt be so novel to you. typical grocery store bill bread $2.15 soda $1.95 ham $3.95 cheese $2.75 total $10.80 now the same bill as done by many garages. bread $2.15 soda $1.95 ham $3.95 cheese $2.75 price scanning $1.00 bagging $0.50 high weight movement the ham $0.75 bag $0.02 total $13.07 how about that nothing different was bought it just cost $2.27 more for nothing more than creative accounting to charge for things that are normally done and / or supplied anyway. i am fully aware of what itemization is and what it can do as well as rip off the customer. hell the phone and cable companies have been doing this for a while now as well. congratulations on proving yourself to be completely ignorant on the subject of pricing oh really lets see. the last 4 items in your second list are included as part of the cost of the food items. sure they are but by itemizing the bill they just double charged you. the first store is doing just what you said including the costs of doing buisness and making a profit into the markup of the goods. what you fail to see is that the second store is charging the same price for its goods same markup and added the last four items to further increase profits. hell the second store could drop all of its prices 10 cents lower than the first on and still get more money from you for the same thing and you would thank them for it lol. no wonder you keep repeating the same stupid rhetoric over and over and over its because you have no idea how prices are determined. no gary you either have no idea or hope that others have no idea how to use itimization to rip them off. .

From : tbone

sure i do max and despite this bs i think that you do as well. that high tech equipment increases the shops ability speed and accuracy and all of these things lead to more money. lets assume for a minute that the work source is unlimited its not but well drop reality for a minute here and all hte time saved can be charged for on other jobs. i cant speak for where you work but most of the good garages around here have waiting lists so while the work source may not be unlimited the will not run out of work by getting it done faster. is it fair to those other customers whose jobs that do not need the expensive diagnostic tools to charge them no. so those that need the service get charged for it. is it fair to charge the same labor rate for the unskilled easy jobs as the skilled hard ones that is the way that it works. bullshit. it is now added to the bill for no other reason but to squeeze the maximum amount of money out of the customer. more whining. you dont know that and cannot prove it on anything more than a case by case basis. making a general assumption makes your statement incorrect. bullshit and just more spin. nothing can be proved beyond a case by case basis. god forbid that anything is done anymore without charging top dollar for it. which tracks back to insurance rates cost of customers that fail to pay all of the bill hint whiners like yourself and restrictions on many of the fluids and byproducts of operating an auto repair facility. these are the costs of doing business slapping on added fees is nothing more than justifying higher profits. used to do for free lol yep i believe that it was once thought of as customer service. too bad that is a lost art. maybe it was maybe it wasnt but since cars are not as simple as they once were mechanics cannot see the electrons failing to do things properly costs for repairs are not as simple as they once were. you and the general public like all the cool stuff a modern fi engine does but you dont want to pay the extra cost when it fails to be cool lol many of the repairs now are even easier then they were since the computer can usually point them in the direction to look. when it gets hard is when something fails that is not part of the modern electronics because the computer usually cannot help them diagnose it. i would agree with this is if the percentage of the people using them knew wtf they were doing but sadly that is not the case. lol maybe its not the case in your limited experience but overall most techs are very well trained. being well trained and being good are not always the same thing. part of the reason the bill is so high is training costs. and that should be and is reflected in the high labor rate. i know of at least three repair businesses in htis area that spend big dollars on getting training for thier guys even though they are not new car dealers. sure there are places that dont spend a dime on training but you have the choice to go elsewhere. the problem is knowing which is which. even the dealers tend to just guess if the computer does not tell them exactly what is wrong at least from what im seeing. a dealer thats taking a guess is a good one to stay away from. instead of bitching about the cost bitch about what you get for your money. and that will help how i already said that a complex diagnosis that takes time and skill should be charged for separately unless it is part of the repair itself. nice spin. obviously a spin but thats your modus operandi. sorry maxi but that is what i was always saying hence the term itemization. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : max340

i cant speak for where you work but most of the good garages around here have waiting lists so while the work source may not be unlimited the will not run out of work by getting it done faster. there have been and always will be lulls in the rate of business. is it fair to charge the same labor rate for the unskilled easy jobs as the skilled hard ones that is the way that it works. thats not how it works. the labor rate is for time not skill. when more skill or technology is needed it is charged to the customer as a diagnostic fee or in the case of specialized skill such as transmission repair the labor rate is higher. bullshit and just more spin. nothing can be proved beyond a case by case basis. and despite your advice youve made a general assumption something you admit is a bad idea. these are the costs of doing business slapping on added fees is nothing more than justifying higher profits. any idiot knows that the cost of doing business gets passed on to the consumer it always has and always will. so claiming the higher profit motivation is just you whining again still all the rest of your blather comes down to one thing caveat emptor. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : tbone

who cares could you spin any faster unless the reason is obvious or constant it is highly unlikely that the tech is going to do anything more than replace the part and see what happens. another generalization when youve already said it depends on a case by case basis. iow you stuck yourself on this one. no max that would be you that said that. i said that nothing can be proven except but on a case by case basis but also said that the world operated on general assumptions. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : budd cochran

i figure if he were a normal human being with normal self-esteem hed be willing to admit to his real identity. however multiple personality disorders are not yet considered normal. the real question of course would be could we believe such an outright baldfaced compulsive liar if he did reveal himself -- budd cochran in tribute to the united states of america and the state of israel two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. ----------------------------------------- that may just get me to come out from my veil of secrecy oooohhhhhh... its colonel flagg!!! the wind broke its leg....... veil of secrecy thats funny....... jackas we all have a veil of secrecy on here wtf are ya gonna do post name address and a pic of your ass who gives a fuck who you are all that matters is that you continue to behave like some stupid television sitcom and make an ass of yourself by acting stupid and then watching you fade away as the episode closes. then we turn off the tube and go on with life. remember like you said its not real.... or is it we can tell an awful lot about how you think by adding alcohol or anonymity to your personality. if it aint real start acting your age or turn off the power. or keep amusing us..... max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : max340max340

if its a diagnostic hookup its not a guess. not according to you or your buddy gary. like you said the tool cannot say exactly what is wrong or why only what is not right with expected readings. the only seperate fee would be for the diagnostic hookup the rest would be general labor. again caveat emptor. because including it as a seperate item allows them to double charge for the work or to create huge markups and justify it by breaking it down into a bunch of bs items creative accounting. whine whine whine...... if you dont like it fix it yourself. that sounds pretty childish and stupid on his part. not at all it solved the problem tactfully politely and with finality. instead of possibly losing some of the time and money on the job lol the guy wanted the whole bill to go away because he wasnt charged labor it was the diagnostic fee you are complaining about. he didnt want to be charged a diagnostic fee. if we had charged labor he would have just like you complained about being overcharged for labor. so instead we lost money on the time and the part and he lost the repair. he lost even more time and all of the money on the job not to mention the possible loss of business due to word of mouth complaints. complaint like i said how do ya complain about being charged nothing and if something happened to that car on the way to the next repair shop he could have been sued and rightfully so. sure ya can sue anytime you want.... winning is the hard part. he coulda sued over the bill or the repair even if all went well with those things. while this all sounds good what exactly was wrong with the vehicle o2 sensor. how much was the diagnostic $40 same as an hour of labor. and how much was the part that i dont remember but nothing out of the ordinary since we charge under list iow he got it cheaper than if he had bought it himself. if he could remove it so quickly and easily sure with a lift. it sounds like it was an easy part to replace and probably looked to be easy to diagnose as well. so what and btw the customer could complain that he damaged the car since he lied when he took it back into the shop and was therefore not authorized to remove the part. authorized to remove hell the customer was refusing authorization to install it so my boss did what he felt would solve the problem most easily removed the new part. it would be fun to see you living in a small town..... max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : tbone

once again you are wrong. keep repeating it and whether or not its true youll believe it. again the word of experience. but ill ask you then if you dont have a partcular need to further increase the impressive torque and performance of the diesel what exactly is the performance increase needed or going to be used for anything he wants including just being able to say he has a chip modification. iow to brag and be cool. that is what is great about this democratic republic with capitalism as its economic system people can do what ever they want and what ever they can afford and they dont need a reason beyond a simple want to do it. i never said anything different. many times people make these mods to a vehicle just because they read about them and dont even think about the potential abuse these changes can cause to related components. i realize this concept is beyond your socialist/liberal/entitlement mindset but thats the way it is in this country. duh really lol like tact has ever been a strong point in this group. doesnt matter if you think it is or not. the properly raised educated no matter what level well mannered person attempts to act in a civil manner something you have failed to do since you got here. perhaps you should read your own posts and talk to your little puppy. or do you admit to lowering your standards to what you percieve as the level in here sure i have to deal with you and others like you. but like what is regularly said although seldom believed this is not reality so get over it. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : budd cochran

then that would make him tom/**guy/dd/richard/pedo/crossdresser/bubba-lover right -- budd cochran in tribute to the united states of america and the state of israel two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. ----------------------------------------- just get me to come out from my veil a veil budd hes really dd bfg sorry but it was there and i had to. folks are getting tooo serious around here. it is the internet remember roy .

From : max340

who cares could you spin any faster unless the reason is obvious or constant it is highly unlikely that the tech is going to do anything more than replace the part and see what happens. another generalization when youve already said it depends on a case by case basis. iow you stuck yourself on this one. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : max340

a veil the only other guy ive seen with a veil is michael jackson. make your own conclusions from there..... max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : tbone

i cant speak for where you work but most of the good garages around here have waiting lists so while the work source may not be unlimited the will not run out of work by getting it done faster. there have been and always will be lulls in the rate of business. that is going to happen regardless of the speed in which you can make the repairs so what is your point my point is that the faster you can make the repairs during the good times the more money that you will make. is it fair to charge the same labor rate for the unskilled easy jobs as the skilled hard ones that is the way that it works. thats not how it works. the labor rate is for time not skill. do you charge a different rate for changing a water pump then you do for changing a timing chain or a cylinder head bullshit and just more spin. nothing can be proved beyond a case by case basis. and despite your advice youve made a general assumption something you admit is a bad idea. general assumptions are made all of the time. the world would not work any other way. these are the costs of doing business slapping on added fees is nothing more than justifying higher profits. any idiot knows that the cost of doing business gets passed on to the consumer it always has and always will. so claiming the higher profit motivation is just you whining again still while all costs are passed on to the customer the type of itemization that i am talking about such as your diagnostic hookup fee is just creative accounting to justify charging the maximum possible charges and make the customer think that they are getting a bargin. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

if its a diagnostic hookup its not a guess. not according to you or your buddy gary. like you said the tool cannot say exactly what is wrong or why only what is not right with expected readings. the only seperate fee would be for the diagnostic hookup the rest would be general labor. lol exactly my point. you are still paying for the diagnosis only now you get an additional hookup fee on top of the actual time required to make the diagnosis thanks max. because including it as a seperate item allows them to double charge for the work or to create huge markups and justify it by breaking it down into a bunch of bs items creative accounting. whine whine whine...... if you dont like it fix it yourself. and i do just that. that sounds pretty childish and stupid on his part. not at all it solved the problem tactfully politely and with finality. how is lying to the customer and telling him never to come back either tactful or polite instead of possibly losing some of the time and money on the job lol the guy wanted the whole bill to go away because he wasnt charged labor it was the diagnostic fee you are complaining about. he didnt want to be charged a diagnostic fee. if we had charged labor he would have just like you complained about being overcharged for labor. so instead we lost money on the time and the part and he lost the repair. when did i complain about being overcharged for labor stop lying max. he lost even more time and all of the money on the job not to mention the possible loss of business due to word of mouth complaints. complaint like i said how do ya complain about being charged nothing how about for the loss of use of his car while your shop did effectively nothing. and if something happened to that car on the way to the next repair shop he could have been sued and rightfully so. sure ya can sue anytime you want.... winning is the hard part. he coulda sued over the bill or the repair even if all went well with those things. but he has little chance of winning. what your boss did was damage the vehicle and that is a whole different ballgame. while this all sounds good what exactly was wrong with the vehicle o2 sensor. how much was the diagnostic $40 same as an hour of labor. gee an hour of labor for a 20 minute job including the diagnostic and you wonder why he complained. he should have dropped the diag charge and charged him for the actual time to repair it and the customer would have been happy. and how much was the part that i dont remember but nothing out of the ordinary since we charge under list iow he got it cheaper than if he had bought it himself. who buys anything for list if he could remove it so quickly and easily sure with a lift. or a jack. it sounds like it was an easy part to replace and probably looked to be easy to diagnose as well. so what so charging a high diagnostic charge for a simple job is ripping off the customer. face it max if he charged on labor only he would only make half as much. and btw the customer could complain that he damaged the car since he lied when he took it back into the shop and was therefore not authorized to remove the part. authorized to remove hell the customer was refusing authorization to install it so my boss did what he felt would solve the problem most easily removed the new part. more symantics lol. he authorzed the repair or your boss would not have done it and complained for the unreasonable charges for the job. that does not equate to a refusal only to a person tying not to get his hard earned money stolen. it would be fun to see you living in a small town..... we shall soon see. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : budd cochran

as ive said repeatedly you know nothing about automotive repair or business operation. the costs you whine about are included in the pricing. would you want to be charged a diagnostic charge for hooking up a 68 plymouth to the scanner no. but would it be out of line to hook it up to a sun engine dyno diagnostic machine they used them a lot back when you were still messing your diapers and often not always charge a separate charge to use it. now go argue with **guy. -- budd cochran in tribute to the united states of america and the state of israel two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. ----------------------------------------- as usual you have to cloud the discussion. in the grocery example those creative accounting charges you whine about are included in the prices of the purchases. how does this cloud anything. is this your answer when you know that you are wrong. those charges are on top of the markup that already covers them it just allows them to increase their profits without obvious unreasonable markups. just as this example of mine shows the first one is the average grocery store and the second one is your way. both grocery stores have the same operating costs and the same markups yet the second one charges more and an idiot like you doesnt even see it and just goes along with it. i would hate to see how you would whine if they itemized completely and included employee bonuses future raises insurance training advertising etc. those costs are covered by the markup on the food. the costs of business in a garage are covered by the hourly charge and the markup on parts. the added diag charge is nothing more than a creative way to squeeze more money out of the customer. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : budd cochranbudd cochran

congratulations on proving yourself to be completely ignorant on the subject of pricing oh really lets see. the last 4 items in your second list are included as part of the cost of the food items. sure they are but by itemizing the bill they just double charged you. yes they would be raising the total bill if the did not reduce the other costs proportionately. however sometimes this charges get added separately after a long time because their costs have become excessive and if you didnt need the scan as in the example of the 68 plymouth you dont get charged for it. this is where you lack of knowledge screws you up again no matter how you spin it. if for example you sacked the groceries yourself eggs do not go under canned goods! you could save that cost. thats one way the large warehouse stores save you money. the first store is doing just what you said including the costs of doing buisness and making a profit into the markup of the goods. what you fail to see is that the second store is charging the same price for its goods same markup and added the last four items to further increase profits. hell the second store could drop all of its prices 10 cents lower than the first on and still get more money from you for the same thing and you would thank them for it lol. this is where you screwed up your response tom/**guy. if the costs of food and /or the costs of the services had remained low there would not have been separate charges for those services and the food items would have been lower. no wonder you keep repeating the same stupid rhetoric over and over and over its because you have no idea how prices are determined. no gary you either have no idea or hope that others have no idea how to use itimization to rip them off. wrong again. -- budd cochran in tribute to the united states of america and the state of israel two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. ----------------------------------------- .

From : redneck tookover hell

so . . .when you go to a grocery store if they want to throw everything into bags and just take a wild guess at the total price thats how t bones drug supplier does it g ill start watching reality tv shows when i can vote people off the planet. .

From : max340

lol exactly my point. you are still paying for the diagnosis only now you get an additional hookup fee on top of the actual time required to make the diagnosis thanks max. weve explained this and how it works a dozen times and you are so lame you dont get it. spin on. whine whine whine...... if you dont like it fix it yourself. and i do just that. then why are you complaining about repair costs you claim you have no knowledge of..... if you actually fix the car yourself...... how is lying to the customer and telling him never to come back either tactful or polite no lies..... the guy wanted the bill to reflect no diagnostic. he got exactly what he wanted. and my boss checked the car to be sure it was running exactly the way it was when it came in. when did i complain about being overcharged for labor every time you complain about a diagnostic charge. stop lying max. no lie youve bitched about it in almost every single post on this thread. complaint like i said how do ya complain about being charged nothing how about for the loss of use of his car while your shop did effectively nothing. we didnt drag him in he came in on his own. down time is his responsibility. and on top of it we did exactly what he wanted to be charged for. but he has little chance of winning. what your boss did was damage the vehicle damage how spinning you nahhh........ gee an hour of labor for a 20 minute job including the diagnostic yup saved him two hours $80 of us poking at wires and taking guesses charged him for a diagnostic hook up and installed the part for free. and you wonder why he complained. well the bill could have been $120. he should have dropped the diag charge and charged him for the actual time to repair it and the customer would have been happy. ok so 30 minutes of test drive time to get the car into open loop 30 more to check and double check readings and codes while the car did its intermittant thing 30 more to get a rusted o2 sensor out of the pipe fitting and another 30 to insure the car now ran correctly. $80 plus parts. instead we charged him $40 plus parts and he wasnt happy. who buys anything for list anyone who buys at retail even if you think you are getting a break at the counter. if he could remove it so quickly and easily sure with a lift. or a jack. yeah crawling under a car is so much easier than standing under it. not. so charging a high diagnostic charge for a simple job is ripping off the customer. face it max if he charged on labor only he would only make half as much. actually in this case he would have made double or triple. he authorzed the repair or your boss would not have done it and complained for the unreasonable charges for the job. that does not equate to a refusal only to a person tying not to get his hard earned money stolen. more silly crap from the unknowing...... it would be fun to see you living in a small town..... we shall soon see. if ya act towards them like ya act on here youll be the dickhead living down the street in no time. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : cbhvaccbhvac

3001.bay.webtv.net!not-for-mail from lowerlink@webtv.net heres a scarry thought.worn crank thrust bearingand or caank.pushing clutchforcing crank forward.moving flywheel notches away from crank sensor!ive seen this before. hey cb you were right the guy from webtv showed up. must be that new phonics they are teaching in public schools nah man..its called the week after christmas... ill start watching reality tv shows when i can vote people off the planet. .

From : max340

well i wont argue with you about the quality of your service. i have never used your service but you obviously take your business and your job very seriously. that is cool. interesting you know as much about gary but are willing to call him every name in the book and accuse him of fraudulent practices. and gary has done the same as steve for many people in here. if everyone just took the time to do the very best that they capable of a lot of these arguments would not even need to take place. remember that next time you decide to call someone names or judge their character with no reason. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : clem

ok so 30 minutes of test drive time to get the car into open loop 30 more to check and double check readings and codes while the car did its intermittant thing 30 more to get a rusted o2 sensor out of the pipe fitting and another 30 to insure the car now ran correctly. $80 plus parts. instead we charged him $40 plus parts and he wasnt happy. this shows what itemization can do for the bottom line. half an hour for each of those steps how tidy. respectfully. - .

From : max340

one i never called gary every name in the book. never said ya did simply noted your willingness to do so try reading. actually over the years i have called him very few. proving my point. i have a very big book max. yes and im sure its hidden under your veil. second you will have to show me where i accused gary of fraudulant business practices. the beginning of this thread where you reply to denny thanks for the question that is pretty much where im coming from. i have an honest mechanic while gary is a rip off artist. im not going to question your mechanics honesty but i think you are wrong about gary. he sounds above board to me. fair enough. he just seems pretty bottom drawer to me. or this maybe that is the reason why you are still crawling under cars rather than hiring people to crawl under cars gary; you dont have any diea what the hell you are doing. and the original reply to denny thanks for the question that is pretty much where im coming from. i have an honest mechanic while gary is a rip off artist. rip off artist = fraudulant business practices. i nevefr did this is just more stupid spin on your part. really the posts are there for all to see..... looks to me like you are lying. having been on this group for about four years i have plenty of reason to judge your behavior as well as garys and budds. with no reason what fucking ng have you been reading you said its not real. if its not real no reason to judge. sorry to upset your delicate little sensibilites max. no upset here just amusement that you cant seem to decide how real this is and whether or not to stick to what you claim is the right way to do things. btw when are ya gonna let us in on who the bankrupt bouncer is and if you really think thats me when are ya gonna provide proof come on drop the veil open the big book of insults and get on stage the audience is waiting!!! max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : cbhvac

lemmie add a couple of things here... i never said that a diagnosis only should be for free but a 5 minute hookup and guess should not cost $60.00. if its a diagnostic hookup its not a guess. not according to you or your buddy gary. like you said the tool cannot say exactly what is wrong or why only what is not right with expected readings. depends on a couple of things...one the tool used and two the skills of the guy reading it. and if they are the ones repairing the vehicle then it should be included and not another cost on top of the repair charges. wrong. i have seen some ghosts take over 4 hours to locate and then it was a simple fix once it was located. i dont know of anyone that will work for free that long. lol so why complain if they include it as a seperate item because including it as a seperate item allows them to double charge for the work or to create huge markups and justify it by breaking it down into a bunch of bs items creative accounting. in a shop enviroment as long back as i can remember...back in the early 70s...there was a charge for diagnosis. and since now i am in the service end of a different sort the thing that people want now is free estimates. i did that for a while...no longer. you go in spend 2 hours measuring and then 2 to 3 hours later doing all the calculations to literally hand the work over to a hack that barely can install the stuff.... fuck it..i dont work for free and i damn sure dont do the other guys legwork for free. how would i know unless i see an extra hour that i know it didnt take to complete the repair. if you know so friggin much about the repair save the entire bill and do it yourself. i do. the most of my car that has seen a garage with the exception of warranty work in the last 20 years was the transmission for my nissan. i watched my boss at one shop take a 10 minute raft of shit from someone like you. after it he said hang on a second i want to double check the fix because i want you to be happy. took the car inside removed the part took the now unrepaired car back outside told him that all extra charges were taken care of and the visit was free. have a nice day and dont come back. excellent. that sounds pretty childish and stupid on his part. not really. instead of possibly losing some of the time and money on the job he lost even more time and all of the money on the job not to mention the possible loss of business due to word of mouth complaints. and if something happened to that car on the way to the next repair shop he could have been sued and rightfully so. no he could not be. no charge no error. we have a policy for all our techs.....if the homeowner gets snippy over a price remove whatever you did put it right back the way it was and walk out. i learned this one a while back in automotive. we had this one pain in the ass show up and had a real winner of a hyundai. it was a total basket case as many were...pulled the history and it had not been back for a thing since day one other than warranty issues had about 120k on it as memory goes....and it came in for a clunking noise. that noise was the t-belt. it took about an hour to locate it since it had other issues to get around but at anyrate the customer declined the repair and we made it clear that the belt was about to go and that a wrecker would be the safe way to get it out of the shop....and this was not an exaggeration. she came to get it called me a liar and a dealer whore and just raised hell. she pulled out into traffic and reved the engine to about 5gs and dumped the clutch where the belt cleanly snapped. then all hell broke loose. we sabotaged her car...we did that...we did it to make her pay...we did it cause we didnt like her..we we we we we we thats all we heard. she would not admit that the car never had a timing belt installed even tho the part number had been superceeded and the part # of the belt in the car was an original...no matter. we offered to pay for a tow to any shop she wanted...no...she wanted us to do the work..for free. we told her to get a good lawyer and come talk to us...she never did... about 4 months later i was helping at another dealer for a couple of days and here she came again....all i heard about was that son of a bitch at the other place and how i looked like a nice guy and she didnt think i would mess her car up like they did and how the service manager was a liar and a prick and had this really bad attitude. i just looked at her and grinned and said to her that he was nice compared to me that i knew the story and she could get her rat trap off the lot. the dealers owner agreed since the east coast rep for hyundai was there that day and he was well aware of the story....you cant catch em all those that will try to steal from you but when you can leave em. btw..i still dont think she realized who she was talkin

From : cbhvac

on fri 2 jan 2004 015914 -0500 cbhvac stephenaddressscfrewedonpurpose@carolinabreezehvac.com wrote in a shop enviroment as long back as i can remember...back in the early 70s...there was a charge for diagnosis. and since now i am in the service end of a different sort the thing that people want now is free estimates. i did that for a while...no longer. you go in spend 2 hours measuring and then 2 to 3 hours later doing all the calculations to literally hand the work over to a hack that barely can install the stuff.... fuck it..i dont work for free and i damn sure dont do the other guys legwork for free. that is what makes this country so great. that is your right. me i personally have no problem with that philosophy. just be up front about it. bottom line you wouldnt ever be working for me. there are a bunch of good folks out there that do it differently. id hire one of them after getting estimates. not a big deal though. youd just get a job elsewhere and id just get a person to do the job elsewhere. no loss either way. no..the difference is that in my line of work...of course steering out of the auto end and sticking to this sub for a second...the difference is that if you hired someone else you would probably get a unit that works. i can guarantee you that it wont work as well as if we installed it. i cant tell you how many times we get called back to double check someone elses work. whereas is you called us and we did the work you would find out that the total bill for a unit that is not only installed right but works at peak and in quiet and was installed quickly and the inspectors signed off without so much as a can you fix this little thing real fast is actually right at or below what you expected even with the $200 or so that you spent to get the estimate. and i have to hand to to those that actually call and ask me to come out and look this new stuff over...it takes some of them some real pride loss to do it. particularly when we get there and its a freaking mess and its going to cost about the same as they paid to fix it. it happens. i just do things a bit different....we give stuff away to the old folks...we dont charge extra after hours or weekends or holidays...not even christmas..some stuff we flat rate others we dont...it depends on if you think that xyg that came out for free and told you its gonna cost $340 for that $25 motor replacement is fair or if you think that we are more fair at $150..we lose alot because people dont understand the markup in our end.... not flaming or arguing...just agreeing with you....in a round about way... several in here can tell you that when there is a problem they can call us and unlike so many others out there we can help them 9 times out of ten over the phone or fax. back when gppimp was in here he called a couple of times with problems up in goat land and we even talked him through it...and trust me..that takes some doing...baaaaahad lee...lol and budd had a gas line issue that we took care of for nothing and his inspectors thought it was a pretty damn good diametric for someone that didnt see the layout...so it all balances out...we are the blacksheep of the industry in my area. customers love us...the competition hates us...and since we got into mold issues they really hate us...its ok...i would rather them talk bad about us since we get more people that understand that when the competition starts talking like that the other guys are doing something right. whats really cool is when the homeowner calls the city or county and asks about us and the inspectors tell them to call us if they want a good install and of course they have to suggest one or two others but when it comes to the mold issues...we are it right now...anyway...strayed too far from the topic at hand...but i guess i look at the big picture...sure you pay a little extra here but in the big picture its not as much as the other guy. we even sell some stuff that the average joe cant get to anyone in here that asks...and normally way below retail as a favor..ie those uv lamps that are going to end up being code on some installations in the future...retail on some of them is over $900...now why in hell would i sell direct to someone anyone if it can be bought for around $375 its public perception. btw...if you have any idea about how a good mechanical install should look...and want a real laugh hit my site go to the photos page give a sec for it to load and go to the bottom...there is a header there that says that the following pics are for the state board and city inpectors office....look what a free quote and $7500 got the guy..nothing there is legal and its not even a heat pump..what they paid for... bad thing...to repair the damage clean it up and do it right....over $9000...the guy destroyed the home... and yea...there are warrants out for the guys arrest since he had no licence and didnt pu

From : beekeepdaguy

on 2 jan 2004 112012 -0800 pak.ecker@comcast.net pak wrote looks like my radiator is shot. as soon as engine is warmed up have lots of leaks and steam. also have a transmission cooler not sure if it is attached to radiaotor or seperate. not sure if radiator or cooler is where the leaks are. anyway is there anyone out there who has tackled this job and can offer any advice i have replaced radiators on cars before but havent tackled the van ever surroundinig real estate looks somewhat congested. if its like my 92 b250 its a piece of cake. just unbolt the front grill assembly pull the hoses and youre looking at it. beekeep .

From : daguy

on 02 jan 2004 182348 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote well i wont argue with you about the quality of your service. i have never used your service but you obviously take your business and your job very seriously. that is cool. interesting you know as much about gary but are willing to call him every name in the book and accuse him of fraudulent practices. and gary has done the same as steve for many people in here. one i never called gary every name in the book. actually over the years i have called him very few. i have a very big book max. second you will have to show me where i accused gary of fraudulant business practices. i nevefr did this is just more stupid spin on your part. if everyone just took the time to do the very best that they capable of a lot of these arguments would not even need to take place. remember that next time you decide to call someone names or judge their character with no reason. having been on this group for about four years i have plenty of reason to judge your behavior as well as garys and budds. with no reason what fucking ng have you been reading sorry to upset your delicate little sensibilites max. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : daguy

on fri 2 jan 2004 094326 -0500 cbhvac stephenaddressscfrewedonpurpose@carolinabreezehvac.com wrote on fri 2 jan 2004 015914 -0500 cbhvac stephenaddressscfrewedonpurpose@carolinabreezehvac.com wrote in a shop enviroment as long back as i can remember...back in the early 70s...there was a charge for diagnosis. and since now i am in the service end of a different sort the thing that people want now is free estimates. i did that for a while...no longer. you go in spend 2 hours measuring and then 2 to 3 hours later doing all the calculations to literally hand the work over to a hack that barely can install the stuff.... fuck it..i dont work for free and i damn sure dont do the other guys legwork for free. that is what makes this country so great. that is your right. me i personally have no problem with that philosophy. just be up front about it. bottom line you wouldnt ever be working for me. there are a bunch of good folks out there that do it differently. id hire one of them after getting estimates. not a big deal though. youd just get a job elsewhere and id just get a person to do the job elsewhere. no loss either way. no..the difference is that in my line of work...of course steering out of the auto end and sticking to this sub for a second...the difference is that if you hired someone else you would probably get a unit that works. i can guarantee you that it wont work as well as if we installed it. i cant tell you how many times we get called back to double check someone elses work. whereas is you called us and we did the work you would find out that the total bill for a unit that is not only installed right but works at peak and in quiet and was installed quickly and the inspectors signed off without so much as a can you fix this little thing real fast is actually right at or below what you expected even with the $200 or so that you spent to get the estimate. and i have to hand to to those that actually call and ask me to come out and look this new stuff over...it takes some of them some real pride loss to do it. particularly when we get there and its a freaking mess and its going to cost about the same as they paid to fix it. it happens. i just do things a bit different....we give stuff away to the old folks...we dont charge extra after hours or weekends or holidays...not even christmas..some stuff we flat rate others we dont...it depends on if you think that xyg that came out for free and told you its gonna cost $340 for that $25 motor replacement is fair or if you think that we are more fair at $150..we lose alot because people dont understand the markup in our end.... not flaming or arguing...just agreeing with you....in a round about way... several in here can tell you that when there is a problem they can call us and unlike so many others out there we can help them 9 times out of ten over the phone or fax. back when gppimp was in here he called a couple of times with problems up in goat land and we even talked him through it...and trust me..that takes some doing...baaaaahad lee...lol and budd had a gas line issue that we took care of for nothing and his inspectors thought it was a pretty damn good diametric for someone that didnt see the layout...so it all balances out...we are the blacksheep of the industry in my area. customers love us...the competition hates us...and since we got into mold issues they really hate us...its ok...i would rather them talk bad about us since we get more people that understand that when the competition starts talking like that the other guys are doing something right. whats really cool is when the homeowner calls the city or county and asks about us and the inspectors tell them to call us if they want a good install and of course they have to suggest one or two others but when it comes to the mold issues...we are it right now...anyway...strayed too far from the topic at hand...but i guess i look at the big picture...sure you pay a little extra here but in the big picture its not as much as the other guy. we even sell some stuff that the average joe cant get to anyone in here that asks...and normally way below retail as a favor..ie those uv lamps that are going to end up being code on some installations in the future...retail on some of them is over $900...now why in hell would i sell direct to someone anyone if it can be bought for around $375 its public perception. btw...if you have any idea about how a good mechanical install should look...and want a real laugh hit my site go to the photos page give a sec for it to load and go to the bottom...there is a header there that says that the following pics are for the state board and city inpectors office....look what a free quote and $7500 got the guy..nothing there is legal and its not even a heat pump..what they paid for... bad thing...to repair the damage clean it up and do it right....over $9000...the guy destroyed th

From : daguy

on 02 jan 2004 223039 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote one i never called gary every name in the book. never said ya did simply noted your willingness to do so try reading. actually over the years i have called him very few. proving my point. i have a very big book max. yes and im sure its hidden under your veil. second you will have to show me where i accused gary of fraudulant business practices. the beginning of this thread where you reply to denny thanks for the question that is pretty much where im coming from. i have an honest mechanic while gary is a rip off artist. im not going to question your mechanics honesty but i think you are wrong about gary. he sounds above board to me. fair enough. he just seems pretty bottom drawer to me. or this maybe that is the reason why you are still crawling under cars rather than hiring people to crawl under cars gary; you dont have any diea what the hell you are doing. and the original reply to denny thanks for the question that is pretty much where im coming from. i have an honest mechanic while gary is a rip off artist. rip off artist = fraudulant business practices. i nevefr did this is just more stupid spin on your part. really the posts are there for all to see..... looks to me like you are lying. having been on this group for about four years i have plenty of reason to judge your behavior as well as garys and budds. with no reason what fucking ng have you been reading you said its not real. if its not real no reason to judge. sorry to upset your delicate little sensibilites max. no upset here just amusement that you cant seem to decide how real this is and whether or not to stick to what you claim is the right way to do things. btw when are ya gonna let us in on who the bankrupt bouncer is and if you really think thats me when are ya gonna provide proof come on drop the veil open the big book of insults and get on stage the audience is waiting!!! max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. well max if you are so amused but not upset what motivates you to follow my posts so closely it is flattering though so thank you. however even then i dont see where i ever called gary a fraud other than by your definition. now i realize that you used to teach school but never the less i am not going ot be bound by your definitions such as they are. oh and you are the one who said you were a bar bouncer. you are also the one who said you had filed bankruptcy. i was only going on your statements so if they are wrong you indeed are a liar. but then i really dont care if you are lying or not. its all just too much fun. and before you step on your tongue any more the veil of secrecy was budds accusation. to just picked it up like you because it was such a stupid assertion. i am glad that we agree on something while you still have a long ways to go it is a step in the right direction for you. over or is the bar open now .

From : max340

well max if you are so amused but not upset what motivates you to follow my posts so closely its not exactly hard given that everything is archived. it is flattering though so thank you. no problem the performance you put on is quite amusing. however even then i dont see where i ever called gary a fraud other than by your definition. calling someone a rip off is saying they use fraudulant practices even if you dont want to admit it. now i realize that you used to teach school really but never the less i am not going ot be bound by your definitions such as they are. for one who isnt bound by the truth i expected no more. oh and you are the one who said you were a bar bouncer. wow you certainly must be following my posts closely as well. i have on occasion done that. it is not my sole means of income by a longshot. you are also the one who said you had filed bankruptcy. but apparently not close enough. youll need to prove that. i know i havent said it because ive never done it. dig up the post. i was only going on your statements you didnt go by my statements. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : max340

this shows what itemization can do for the bottom line. half an hour for each of those steps how tidy. respectfully. - your point is exactly why the gentleman in question was not charged for what was done but instead was charged a diagnostic fee. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : tom lawrencetbone

damn this from a guy who has/had two v10s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! bg yep. still have em in fact. but i am glad i finally let a bunch of people talk me into the cummins... especially the new hpcr engine. the only thing wrong with it from the factory is that its too damn quiet. that was quickly fixed however say whats this about leather seats oh... i made one stinkin comment about getting leather in my 99 because i absolutely hated the red/yellow/blue multi-colored pattern on the cloth seats looked like someone puked up a bowl of froot loops and roy immediately went to the leather fetish thing. personally i think it says a whole lot more about him than it does about me but hey - to each his own p.s. yeah the 03 cummins truck has leather in it as well... .

From : tbone

congratulations on proving yourself to be completely ignorant on the subject of pricing oh really lets see. the last 4 items in your second list are included as part of the cost of the food items. sure they are but by itemizing the bill they just double charged you. yes they would be raising the total bill if the did not reduce the other costs proportionately. lol yea sure budd. are you really this stupid notice that in my example that both stores were doing this at the same time and were charging equal markups for the same items. the only difference is that the other store was adding on additional charges for the same thing. the funny and sad thing is that you simply justified them doing it without a second thought and you wonder why it is becoming common practice. however sometimes this charges get added separately after a long time because their costs have become excessive and if you didnt need the scan as in the example of the 68 plymouth you dont get charged for it. what does this even mean what if the diagnosis time for the 68 becomes excessive do they just let it go because it doesnt have a diagnostc port what if the hookup points to a problem that would have taken hours to diagnose on the 68 in a matter of minutes do you then give them a discount this is where you lack of knowledge screws you up again no matter how you spin it. if for example you sacked the groceries yourself eggs do not go under canned goods! you could save that cost. thats one way the large warehouse stores save you money. once again you prove yourself to be an idiot. the cost of bags comes to pennies per customer and the checkout person still has to handle all of the items. then you can add the extra person that stands at the exit and checks all of the people comming out to make sure that they actually bought what they are leaving with which costs more than a few bags. the cost reduction comes from special deals and volume purchases. the shopright by me matches bjs prices on everything that they sell. the first store is doing just what you said including the costs of doing buisness and making a profit into the markup of the goods. what you fail to see is that the second store is charging the same price for its goods same markup and added the last four items to further increase profits. hell the second store could drop all of its prices 10 cents lower than the first on and still get more money from you for the same thing and you would thank them for it lol. this is where you screwed up your response tom/**guy. if the costs of food and /or the costs of the services had remained low there would not have been separate charges for those services and the food items would have been lower. lol and you know this how the answer is you dont. as a matter of fact i told you that they didnt and that they were just ripping you off. you are just justifying the added charges and that makes the screw-up you! no wonder you keep repeating the same stupid rhetoric over and over and over its because you have no idea how prices are determined. no gary you either have no idea or hope that others have no idea how to use itimization to rip them off. wrong again. are you gary now -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

as ive said repeatedly you know nothing about automotive repair or business operation. and as usual you are wrong but what else is new. you really seem to have a real self confidence problem. the costs you whine about are included in the pricing. no dudd i am complaining about the additional tacked on for pure profit charges. would you want to be charged a diagnostic charge for hooking up a 68 plymouth to the scanner what part of this dont you understand i dont want to be charged a hookup fee for any car in addition to the diagnosis charge. no. but would it be out of line to hook it up to a sun engine dyno diagnostic machine they used them a lot back when you were still messing your diapers and often not always charge a separate charge to use it. yes they did and for good reason. that tool takes more than the 5 seconds to hook up that a typical diag tool for modern cars does and takes far more experience to determine exactly what the readings indicate and was usually not done unless they couldnt figure out the problem without it. i think that i could count on one hand the number of times i saw the one in the garage i worked at hooked up to any customers car. now go argue with **guy. but according to you we never argue and in fact are the same person so why would i argue with him / myself now -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

lol exactly my point. you are still paying for the diagnosis only now you get an additional hookup fee on top of the actual time required to make the diagnosis thanks max. weve explained this and how it works a dozen times and you are so lame you dont get it. spin on. no all you are doing is trying to justify it and it is still bs. whine whine whine...... if you dont like it fix it yourself. and i do just that. then why are you complaining about repair costs you claim you have no knowledge of..... if you actually fix the car yourself...... just because i fix my own car doesnt eliminate my rights to voice an opinion on obvious overcharging. how is lying to the customer and telling him never to come back either tactful or polite no lies..... the guy wanted the bill to reflect no diagnostic. he got exactly what he wanted. and my boss checked the car to be sure it was running exactly the way it was when it came in. no he said let me take another look at it and never indicated that he was going to remove the part. when did i complain about being overcharged for labor every time you complain about a diagnostic charge. but you made it clear that the diagnostic charge was in addition and not related to labor so i ask you again when did i complain about being overcharged for labor stop lying max. no lie youve bitched about it in almost every single post on this thread. you need to actually read what was written not just what you want to see. complaint like i said how do ya complain about being charged nothing how about for the loss of use of his car while your shop did effectively nothing. we didnt drag him in he came in on his own. down time is his responsibility. not once the car is in your hands. and on top of it we did exactly what he wanted to be charged for. actually no you didnt. but he has little chance of winning. what your boss did was damage the vehicle damage how spinning you nahhh........ he took a normally running car back into the shop and removed a good part and purposly replaced it with a known defective one. sounds like damage to me. gee an hour of labor for a 20 minute job including the diagnostic yup saved him two hours $80 of us poking at wires and taking guesses charged him for a diagnostic hook up and installed the part for free. so you feel the need to charge extra for using a tool that makes you more efficient and you wonder why he complained. well the bill could have been $120. sure it could have been $500. he should have dropped the diag charge and charged him for the actual time to repair it and the customer would have been happy. ok so 30 minutes of test drive time to get the car into open loop lol what planet are you on. my car and truck are in open loop when they are first started. they go into closed loop after about 5 minutes. 30 more to check and double check readings and codes while the car did its intermittant thing if it sets the code then it sets the code. if the electrical connections look good then the sensor is probably bad. when the diagnostic costs more than the part it makes no sense to do it just replace the part. 30 more to get a rusted o2 sensor out of the pipe fitting how long are you counting the time that the vehicle sits while the penetrating oil does its job and he was working on something else or on a break and another 30 to insure the car now ran correctly. yea sure. youn could do the same thing by letting it idle in the lot while working on something else. $80 plus parts. instead we charged him $40 plus parts and he wasnt happy. if he would have charged the $40 as 1 hour labor instead of the bogus diag fee he probably would have been fine with it. who buys anything for list anyone who buys at retail even if you think you are getting a break at the counter. there is a difference between paying retail and paying list. if he could remove it so quickly and easily sure with a lift. or a jack. yeah crawling under a car is so much easier than standing under it. not. when did i say that it was easier so charging a high diagnostic charge for a simple job is ripping off the customer. face it max if he charged on labor only he would only make half as much. actually in this case he would have made double or triple. how for being inefficient lol. he authorzed the repair or your boss would not have done it and complained for the unreasonable charges for the job. that does not equate to a refusal only to a person tying not to get his hard earned money stolen. more silly crap from the unknowing...... yawn it would be fun to see you living in a small town..... we shall soon see. if ya act towards them like ya act on here youll be the dickhead living down the street in no time. lol you should be one of the last people

From : max340

just because i fix my own car doesnt eliminate my rights to voice an opinion on obvious overcharging. no your lack of knowledge does that. no he said let me take another look at it and never indicated that he was going to remove the part. he indicated he would make the customer happy. the customer bitched until he got what he wanted to pay for. actually he got more since he paid for nothing and read the receipt explaining what was wrong. if he was smart he only needed to drive to another shop and ask for the part to be replaced which im sure would have made him happy.... until he got the bill. but you made it clear that the diagnostic charge was in addition and not related to labor incorrect but then you believe what you want. you need to actually read what was written not just what you want to see. thats funny... maybe you need to realize what you are writing. we didnt drag him in he came in on his own. down time is his responsibility. not once the car is in your hands. if a customer is unsatisfied with down time the only recourse is to take the car elsewhere. again its not our responsibility. and on top of it we did exactly what he wanted to be charged for. actually no you didnt. he wanted to pay for nothing he got nothing and did not pay for it. he took a normally running car back into the shop and removed a good part and purposly replaced it with a known defective one. sounds like damage to me. nope its insuring that the car is running as it was when it arrived. so you feel the need to charge extra for using a tool that makes you more efficient everyone does because the cost of that tool is called overhead. if its overhead it is part of the cost of getting a repair completed. clearly youve never run a business.... at least not profitably or using traditionally accepted business methods. well the bill could have been $120. sure it could have been $500. so why are you complaining about a small extra charge ok so 30 minutes of test drive time to get the car into open loop lol what planet are you on. my car and truck are in open loop when they are first started. they go into closed loop after about 5 minutes. thats wrong. closed loop ifthen... ifthen... reads specific parameters open loop ifandandand..... reads variables from the sensors. closed loop reads a set of programmed memory repeatedly. open loop reads changing info thus it never reads exactly the same twice. if it sets the code then it sets the code. if its intermittant and does nto set a code you must diagnose to determine if the sensor is fluctuating abnormally but within accepted parameters. this is something you obviously dont understand. if the electrical connections look good you may still be missing something on the connectors. then the sensor is probably bad. probably youve just proven the reasoning in using proper diagnostic procedure. when the diagnostic costs more than the part it makes no sense to do it just replace the part. unless of course you have an intermittant problem and it doesnt set a code or when the replace test again repeat as needed method fails. hint this method fails by design 30 more to get a rusted o2 sensor out of the pipe fitting how long are you counting the time that the vehicle sits while the penetrating oil does its job and he was working on something else or on a break no im counting the time it takes to properly raise a vehicle work the rust loose track down the connector clean the threads in the pipe apply neverseize install new o2 sensor reconnect wiring lower vehicle clear lift clear ecm memory. which as i noted was not charged to the customer despite the fact that it was all done on time chargable to his repair. and another 30 to insure the car now ran correctly. yea sure. youn could do the same thing by letting it idle in the lot while working on something else. if thats good enough for you then youve never run a successful auto repair business. in fact your method is a sure way to invite comebacks wasting time for everyone involved. simply idling a vehicle particularly on an o2 sensor replacement is not good enough. if he would have charged the $40 as 1 hour labor instead of the bogus diag fee he probably would have been fine with it. it doesnt say what *** i *** think it should on the bill so i wont pay that amounts to failure to pay for services rendered. anyone who buys at retail even if you think you are getting a break at the counter. there is a difference between paying retail and paying list. yeah sure..... whatever. you know all about the auto parts business now dont you you are grasping at straws. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : max340

no dudd i am complaining about the additional tacked on for pure profit charges. yeah pure profit.... until you look at the weekly payment on a $2000 piece of equipment training on using it costs of upgrades costs of additional connectors..... what part of this dont you understand i dont want to be charged a hookup fee for any car in addition to the diagnosis charge. you simply dont get this do you you as a consumer of services get to pay for the overhead which includes the price of diagnostic equipment and labor. to keep it fair which you as a consumer of services also demand you are not charged if you dont need to have the scanner hooked up. however if you do need that piece of equipment used you get to pay for a portion of its cost so everyone else doesnt have to pay for what you needed. if you dont wish to pay for service rendered to you then do not go to a commercial garage. yes they did and for good reason. that tool takes more than the 5 seconds to hook up that a typical diag tool bullshit. it takes about the same number of connections. for modern cars does and takes far more experience to determine exactly what the readings indicate hardly. the only difference is the old sun stuff reads analog and a snap-on or otc reads digital. ya still have to know what it means and what it should read. i think that i could count on one hand the number of times i saw the one in the garage i worked at hooked up to any customers car. what a waste of good equipment. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : tbone

just because i fix my own car doesnt eliminate my rights to voice an opinion on obvious overcharging. no your lack of knowledge does that. no he said let me take another look at it and never indicated that he was going to remove the part. he indicated he would make the customer happy. the customer bitched until he got what he wanted to pay for. actually he got more since he paid for nothing and read the receipt explaining what was wrong. if he was smart he only needed to drive to another shop and ask for the part to be replaced which im sure would have made him happy.... until he got the bill. he still didnt tell the customer that he was going to remove the part. semantics aside he was still lying. but you made it clear that the diagnostic charge was in addition and not related to labor incorrect but then you believe what you want. what you did say was the only seperate fee would be for the diagnostic hookup the rest would be general labor you need to actually read what was written not just what you want to see. thats funny... maybe you need to realize what you are writing. lol pot kettle black we didnt drag him in he came in on his own. down time is his responsibility. not once the car is in your hands. if a customer is unsatisfied with down time the only recourse is to take the car elsewhere. again its not our responsibility. yes it is. just because he cant legally do anything about... and on top of it we did exactly what he wanted to be charged for. actually no you didnt. he wanted to pay for nothing he got nothing and did not pay for it. no he didnt want to pay for a ripoff diagnostic hookup. he took a normally running car back into the shop and removed a good part and purposly replaced it with a known defective one. sounds like damage to me. nope its insuring that the car is running as it was when it arrived. lol sure max anything you say. so you feel the need to charge extra for using a tool that makes you more efficient everyone does because the cost of that tool is called overhead. if its overhead it is part of the cost of getting a repair completed. clearly youve never run a business.... at least not profitably or using traditionally accepted business methods. bullshit. if the tool increases your repair speed it pays for itself even if you keep your rates consistant. well the bill could have been $120. sure it could have been $500. so why are you complaining about a small extra charge because it is unnecessary. ok so 30 minutes of test drive time to get the car into open loop lol what planet are you on. my car and truck are in open loop when they are first started. they go into closed loop after about 5 minutes. thats wrong. closed loop ifthen... ifthen... reads specific parameters w r o n g !!! open loop ifandandand..... reads variables from the sensors. even more w r o n g !!! closed loop reads a set of programmed memory repeatedly. open loop reads changing info thus it never reads exactly the same twice. what in the hell are you talking about. you really dont have a clue. an open loop much like an open circuit is incomplete. iow the computer is not reading all of the sensors. in a closed loop again much like a closed circuit is complete and is reading from all sensors. with your knowlege of electricity and your belief that voltage flows i really should expect nothing more. but hell max dont believe me look it up in the fsm. if it sets the code then it sets the code. if its intermittant and does nto set a code you must diagnose to determine if the sensor is fluctuating abnormally but within accepted parameters. this is something you obviously dont understand. now that would depend on why it was brought in. there are damn few cases where the fluctuations would cause poor running or failing emmissions and the computer would not be aware of a problem. if the electrical connections look good you may still be missing something on the connectors. while true it is unlikley. then the sensor is probably bad. probably youve just proven the reasoning in using proper diagnostic procedure. no i didnt. when the diagnostic costs more than the part it makes no sense to do it just replace the part. unless of course you have an intermittant problem and it doesnt set a code or when the replace test again repeat as needed method fails. hint this method fails by design it only fails if the diagnostic costs less than the part you are diagnosing. if it takes you 2 hours at $60 and hour to diagnose a $80 dollar part that is the most likely cause of the problem it is more cost efficient to just replace the part and go from there. why do you think that so many dealers just seem to throw parts at some problems 30 more to get a rusted o2 sensor out of the pipe fitting how long are yo

From : budd cochran

as ive said repeatedly you know nothing about automotive repair or business operation. and as usual you are wrong but what else is new. you really seem to have a real self confidence problem. you dont know much about polio survivors do you you should do some research. polio survivors like myself make up the largest group of overachievers in the demographic world. btw youre wrong. the costs you whine about are included in the pricing. no dudd i am complaining about the additional tacked on for pure profit charges. no your whining because your wussy ego wont let you live a day without finding something to whine about. would you want to be charged a diagnostic charge for hooking up a 68 plymouth to the scanner what part of this dont you understand i dont want to be charged a hookup fee for any car in addition to the diagnosis charge. then fix it yourself since your two months sweeping floors in a garage make you the worlds greatest living mechanic. modern engines as you have often thought you needed to remind someone require a diagnostic search because you cant work on them under a shadetree with a bfh. no. but would it be out of line to hook it up to a sun engine dyno diagnostic machine they used them a lot back when you were still messing your diapers and often not always charge a separate charge to use it. yes they did and for good reason. that tool takes more than the 5 seconds to hook up that a typical diag tool for modern cars does and takes far more experience to determine exactly what the readings indicate and was usually not done unless they couldnt figure out the problem without it. i think that i could count on one hand the number of times i saw the one in the garage i worked at hooked up to any customers car. well its hard to watch and learn from the mechanics when youre scrubbing up oil spills. if you didnt see it doesnt mean it didnt happen and if they didnt use it when they should have then it speaks poorly of them as does your mechanical knowledge if you learned it from those clowns. now go argue with **guy. but according to you we never argue and in fact are the same person so why would i argue with him / myself now so you could leave normal people alone go find a mirror and argue it out for yourself . . . just be careful you dont lose the argument. -- budd cochran in tribute to the united states of america and the state of israel two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. ------ .

From : dudlee brennfoerderbudd cochranbudd cochran

i was unable to locate this seller -- dudlee & debbie brennfoerder edgar ne 68935 i purchased two of them from ebay from the same seller they work great he went by the name bunnyboy roy on ebay jimmy looking for a factory am/fm/cd/cass player for a 1998 dodge ram- please email direct sales@batteriesareus.com still have a nice topper for sale for a short box dodge! nothin but dodges in our garages! -- dudlee & debbie brennfoerder edgar ne 68935 .

From : robert lowerneil nelson

redanyone ever told you that your a prickthey have now.n/m .

From : budd cochranbudd cochran

my biggest concern spammers. theyre as bad as telemarketers if not worse -- budd cochran in tribute to the united states of america and the state of israel two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism. ------ what is your biggest concern when buying a used car the condition of the car honesty of salesman price vote at http//www.thriftmeister.com/poll.htm .

From : neil nelson

tbone fatchance@noway.now wrote a couple of casual observations... bullshit. if the tool increases your repair speed it pays for itself even if you keep your rates consistant. but the discussion is about a scan tool is it not scan tools are not totally dedicated to speeding up a repair they are a necessary piece of equipment in as much as it is impossible to extract codes without one in many cases and it is the only way to determine what values the pcm is operating under as opposed to merely connecting a volt meter to a sensor or component and viewing the raw voltage values. snip even more w r o n g !!! closed loop reads a set of programmed memory repeatedly. open loop reads changing info thus it never reads exactly the same twice. what in the hell are you talking about. you really dont have a clue. an open loop much like an open circuit is incomplete. iow the computer is not reading all of the sensors. in a closed loop again much like a closed circuit is complete and is reading from all sensors. with your knowlege of electricity and your belief that voltage flows i really should expect nothing more. but hell max dont believe me look it up in the fsm. since the problem in this case involves an oxygen sensor it is entirely possible that the vehicle needed to be test driven because even though the o2 and system sensor may have been going closed loop initially during warm up it could also have been dropping out of closed loop back to open loop after an extended period of time while driving. o2 sensors do -do- this when they are failing i.e. sensor develops an open once hot ce light comes on doesnt do it until 15 miles down the road after an initial cold start. step 1 in diagnostics verify the complaint under the conditions where it occurs. max understands this i understand this gary understands this and any other professional mechanic that has done more than a few driveability repairs should understand this. snip now that would depend on why it was brought in. there are damn few cases where the fluctuations would cause poor running or failing emmissions and the computer would not be aware of a problem. you dont work on many chrysler products do you two weeks ago customer calls 97 chrysler lhs 3.5 liter engine. cant get it running cranks okay. since hes only a few miles down the road i grab a spark tester my brick a test light and some other odds and ends. its got good spark the fuel pump is running in key on and during crank has correct fuel pressure sounds like it wants to start. i get it running by holding it in wot and drive it back to the shop with my brick hooked up and set to record a movie. curious readings from the left o2 sensor like only reading .01 volt while driving it back i record a movie back at the shop i download the movie to scan graphics and replay it. left o2 sensor pretty much flat lined from the time it went closed loop yes it will go closed loop on just the right sensor right o2 sensor functioning normally left fuel trim maxed out at +25% right fuel trim running 3%-5% normal. pulled the sparkplugs left bank sparkplugs black with soot right bank sparkplugs clean and normal. no trouble codes stored none! while the computer was aware of the problem in as much as it was viewable in the data stream it didnt do anything about it like turn on the ce light or even set a trouble code. now while this particular problem was pretty much a slam dunk it certainly points out the shortfalls in the diagnostic routines programmed into the pcms us professionals deal with every day. snip it only fails if the diagnostic costs less than the part you are diagnosing. if it takes you 2 hours at $60 and hour to diagnose a $80 dollar part that is the most likely cause of the problem it is more cost efficient to just replace the part and go from there. why do you think that so many dealers just seem to throw parts at some problems because the oems rarely if ever pay diagnostic time and this certainly doesnt help your arguement for obvious reasons. there is currently a big shit storm brewing in the ford dealership ranks for this and other issues having to do with absurd warranty labor times and charge backs. it boils down to there being a certain comfort level with the oems with respect to throwing parts at vehicles until they are fixed a comfort level that doesnt exist in the non-dealership end of the repair business. if certain component failures have a higher than expected rate of replacement usually/eventually the oem will issue a tsb to cover the problem hopefully eliminating the parts swapping orgy. once the vehicle expires its warranty coverage there is a level of certainty that these issues will have already been dealt with but at this point another totally different level of failure and repair begin to show up. snip not really. there are guidelines and industry standards

From : max340

a couple of casual observations... one on my part i did reverse open and closed loop descriptions. all else that i said including the descriptions themselves stand as written. now while this particular problem was pretty much a slam dunk it certainly points out the shortfalls in the diagnostic routines programmed into the pcms us professionals deal with every day. the question that needs to be addressed here for tbones benefit is who paid for all the time put into diagnostics and was there a seperate charge for the diagnostic connection ooops i guess no one ever explained to t-bone what those fn keys can do to the price structure. indeed. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : daguy

on 04 jan 2004 172049 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote a couple of casual observations... one on my part i did reverse open and closed loop descriptions. all else that i said including the descriptions themselves stand as written. now while this particular problem was pretty much a slam dunk it certainly points out the shortfalls in the diagnostic routines programmed into the pcms us professionals deal with every day. the question that needs to be addressed here for tbones benefit is who paid for all the time put into diagnostics and was there a seperate charge for the diagnostic connection or better yet is it going to be expected that he or whoever started this thing pay for all of the dignostic info that was received here ooops i guess no one ever explained to t-bone what those fn keys can do to the price structure. indeed. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : neil nelson

max340@aol.compost max340 wrote a couple of casual observations... one on my part i did reverse open and closed loop descriptions. were all human. all else that i said including the descriptions themselves stand as written. if i understand his initial objection wrt open or closed loop he was objecting without consideration for the possibility that perhaps the failure experienced on -that- particular vehicle necessitated driving the vehicle until it went open loop. not having been there all i can do is think of all the possibilities as to why driving until open loop might be needed. regardless of what -he- might think i for one recognized that what you were describing was legitimate and valid. unfortuneately his limited experience only allowed him to believe that only driving or idling until -closed loop- was a valid procedure. i guess thats all one can expect from someone who in his entire employment as a mechanic only saw a scan tool in use 5 or less times. now while this particular problem was pretty much a slam dunk it certainly points out the shortfalls in the diagnostic routines programmed into the pcms us professionals deal with every day. the question that needs to be addressed here for tbones benefit is who paid for all the time put into diagnostics and was there a seperate charge for the diagnostic connection yes there was a charge for the diagnosis as a separate labor line item on the repair order however there was not a separate line item labor charge for a diagnostic connection. in this particular case viewing the failure in graphing mode on my laptop made it very easy for the customer to understand the whats and whys of the failure he was very impressed and felt that he got good value for his money. in addition there was no extra or separate charge for my visit to his house/getting the vehicle running. ooops i guess no one ever explained to t-bone what those fn keys can do to the price structure. indeed. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : neil nelson

max340@aol.compost max340 wrote regardless of what -he- might think i for one recognized that what you were describing was legitimate and valid. the rest of the story as it were is that while it was a simple fix this particular customer had in the past been exceptionally picky about his vehicles to a fault. as such we made damn sure we had the problem cornered with paper trail of a proper diagnostic procedure. when he complained about a thoroughly documented and proper job after complaining about not knowing what his bills were for on previous visits he had worn out his welcome. i applaud you or the boss for firing this customer. unfortuneatly sometimes thats what you have to do. yes there was a charge for the diagnosis as a separate labor line item on the repair order however there was not a separate line item labor charge for a diagnostic connection. my question is then do you or does the dealership own the diagnostic tool you were using curiousity drives this on my part. i own the scan tool along with all of my other diagnostic gear however i do not work in a dealership. n addition there was no extra or separate charge for my visit to his house/getting the vehicle running. something that is rare or nonexistant except in rural areas where it seems almost common for a loyal customer. the area where i live for the most part is rural. .

From : max340neil nelson

regardless of what -he- might think i for one recognized that what you were describing was legitimate and valid. the rest of the story as it were is that while it was a simple fix this particular customer had in the past been exceptionally picky about his vehicles to a fault. as such we made damn sure we had the problem cornered with paper trail of a proper diagnostic procedure. when he complained about a thoroughly documented and proper job after complaining about not knowing what his bills were for on previous visits he had worn out his welcome. yes there was a charge for the diagnosis as a separate labor line item on the repair order however there was not a separate line item labor charge for a diagnostic connection. my question is then do you or does the dealership own the diagnostic tool you were using curiousity drives this on my part. n addition there was no extra or separate charge for my visit to his house/getting the vehicle running. something that is rare or nonexistant except in rural areas where it seems almost common for a loyal customer. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : max340max340

oh well maybe he needs to start a new group alt.netnannies hell if all the guys who want dodge truck content and only ram content would start their own group theyd have it made. in the mean time i think the idots of society make it fun to watch and help make good friends more appreciated. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : max340

i applaud you or the boss for firing this customer. unfortuneatly sometimes thats what you have to do. agreed and funny thing is more often than ot you hear from another garage about him either asking what happened that he is down there or asking why ya put up with him so long. my question is then do you or does the dealership own the diagnostic tool you were using curiousity drives this on my part. i own the scan tool along with all of my other diagnostic gear however i do not work in a dealership. well if you are self employed then you dont count the tool as overhead. if you are employed by another he cannot call it overhead and thus cannot charge for it. not calling it overhead is different from around here where a garage will count that sort of investment as overhead. the area where i live for the most part is rural. same here. its not uncommon to pick up or deliver a car. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : gotwingsneil nelson

ok my 93 dakota 2wd is having a lil trouble. when i pull up to a stop and depress the clutch often times now the motor speed will dip down and die if i dont rev it a lil. then it idles fine. anyone know what sensor i need to swap out etc allllllrighty then this thread sure went downill fast! but anyhoo i cleaned and de-gummed my tb and truck idles great so far. it did before but would occassionally die as the tb plates would close. so i think cleaning it really helped. i even tucked a 14 x 4 air cleaner in the drum. i forgot how zippy these trucks are. my non winter driver is a 2000 z28 that runs high 11s. but still fast for a truck! thanks all .

From : neil nelson

max340@aol.compost max340 wrote i applaud you or the boss for firing this customer. unfortuneatly sometimes thats what you have to do. agreed and funny thing is more often than ot you hear from another garage about him either asking what happened that he is down there or asking why ya put up with him so long. similar here most all of the shops get along and compare notes... my question is then do you or does the dealership own the diagnostic tool you were using curiousity drives this on my part. i own the scan tool along with all of my other diagnostic gear however i do not work in a dealership. well if you are self employed then you dont count the tool as overhead. if you are employed by another he cannot call it overhead and thus cannot charge for it. not calling it overhead is different from around here where a garage will count that sort of investment as overhead. overhead is accounted for in the shop labor rate specialized equipment that doesnt fall under general servicing gets billed according to the provisions of the labor time manual. as a typical example; if im fixing a ford driveability problem the initial code retrieval and scrutiny of the data stream if it has one is billed out as a separate labor item as eec test. were i to be employed by someone and had to supply my own scan tool etc. the charges for that would have been negotiated at the time of hire possibly a split flat rate scale. the area where i live for the most part is rural. same here. its not uncommon to pick up or deliver a car. hell its not uncommon for a customer to call and ask to have the vehicle picked up and they tell you where the spare house key is so you can let yourself in and grab the keys off the hook. i have one customer a building contractor that just gives me copies of all the keys for his vehicles then he just calls and lets me know what needs service and when hell be needing it done by. he always tacks on an extra $20 to the bill for me picking up and returning the vehicle. .

From : tbone

as ive said repeatedly you know nothing about automotive repair or business operation. and as usual you are wrong but what else is new. you really seem to have a real self confidence problem. you dont know much about polio survivors do you you should do some research. polio survivors like myself make up the largest group of overachievers in the demographic world. but what does this have to do with you while you may be a polio survivor i would hardly call you an overachiever. the costs you whine about are included in the pricing. no dudd i am complaining about the additional tacked on for pure profit charges. no your whining because your wussy ego wont let you live a day without finding something to whine about. you sure do like to project your feelings onto the one you are arguing with. would you want to be charged a diagnostic charge for hooking up a 68 plymouth to the scanner what part of this dont you understand i dont want to be charged a hookup fee for any car in addition to the diagnosis charge. then fix it yourself since your two months sweeping floors in a garage make you the worlds greatest living mechanic. lol when you resort to these childish insults it becomes obvious that your argument has no legs. modern engines as you have often thought you needed to remind someone require a diagnostic search because you cant work on them under a shadetree with a bfh. like i said multiple times already i do fix them myself and i dont mind paying for a complex diagnosis when it is required as i fully believe that a mechanic should be payed for his skills and time involved but a hookup fee is just a bullshit charge anyway you spin it. no. but would it be out of line to hook it up to a sun engine dyno diagnostic machine they used them a lot back when you were still messing your diapers and often not always charge a separate charge to use it. yes they did and for good reason. that tool takes more than the 5 seconds to hook up that a typical diag tool for modern cars does and takes far more experience to determine exactly what the readings indicate and was usually not done unless they couldnt figure out the problem without it. i think that i could count on one hand the number of times i saw the one in the garage i worked at hooked up to any customers car. well its hard to watch and learn from the mechanics when youre scrubbing up oil spills. more insults grow up budd/max. not that thats what i actually did are you saying that a person who cleans up oil spills is less of a person than anyone else or is by nature dumber than others if you didnt see it doesnt mean it didnt happen and if they didnt use it when they should have then it speaks poorly of them as does your mechanical knowledge if you learned it from those clowns. lol wrong again. actually the mechanics at the garage that i worked at were very good and capable of diagnosing the problem in short order without the need for that tool in most cases. when they couldnt figure it out or the symptoms could not be accurately diagnosed without the tool it would be used. to take the time to hook it up for a tune up both wastes their time and the customers money. now go argue with **guy. but according to you we never argue and in fact are the same person so why would i argue with him / myself now so you could leave normal people alone again what does that have to do with you go find a mirror and argue it out for yourself . . . just be careful you dont lose the argument. speaking from personal experience again -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

lol yea sure budd. are you really this stupid notice that in my example that both stores were doing this at the same time and were charging equal markups for the same items. the only difference is that the other store was adding on additional charges for the same thing. the funny and sad thing is that you simply justified them doing it without a second thought and you wonder why it is becoming common practice. lol i justified noting but it would take some knowledge of business practices to realize it. then how would you know anything about it the only time a retailer should charge for the extra service without a price cut would be when as i mentioned but you conviently ignored there is a dramatic wholesale price increase in his inventory. and that is the key issue here budd the word should. the human mind as a remarkable ability to justify just about anything and when honest people see others doing something that they initially perceive as wrong enough times they tend to justify doing it for themselfs as well. as for the dramatic wholesale price increase if that is the case then the retailer needs to raise his prices not tack on bullshit charges. of course admitting such could even possibly be the case would destroy your pathetic whines. what does this even mean it appears im correct you have no business sense. no it just means that you make no sense. what if the diagnosis time for the 68 becomes excessive the real question would be do you really want to know whats wrong or do you want a wild guess that depends on the cost vs the problem. if you want an accurate diagnosis then you pay for it whether its done by machine or not. what does that have to do with the subject at hand there is a big difference between a diagnosis charge and a bs hookup fee. do they just let it go because it doesnt have a diagnostc port never a saw a sun diagnostic in your life have you are you really lod enought to have gone to trade school i had no reason to go to a trade school and had personal access to to one for years when i both worked for the garage and while i still lived near it. what if the hookup points to a problem that would have taken hours to diagnose on the 68 in a matter of minutes do you then give them a discount lol you really are a business doofus. did you deliver papers as a kid did you buy them at $0.30 and sell them for $0.29 here we go back to the name calling and unfounded accusations lol. this is where you lack of knowledge screws you up again no matter how you spin it. if for example you sacked the groceries yourself eggs do not go under canned goods! you could save that cost. thats one way the large warehouse stores save you money. once again you prove yourself to be an idiot. the **guy that cant even figure out simple pricing calls me an idiot no your continued resistance to facts is increasing your idiocy. i called you an idiot becaue that is the way that you are acting. simple pricing has nothing to do with bogus add on charges. your continued resistance to that simple fact is increasing your idiocy although i wouldnt think that was possible. the cost of bags comes to pennies per customer and the checkout person still has to handle all of the items. then you can add the extra person that stands at the exit and checks all of the people comming out to make sure that they actually bought what they are leaving with which costs more than a few bags. the cost reduction comes from special deals and volume purchases. the shopright by me matches bjs prices on everything that they sell. hey tom/**guy you just demonstrated what weve been trying to tell you yelling intended. there are hidden charges and there are times to bring them out into the open and charge for them separately. why if you reduce the price to show the elimination of hidden charges then you might be correct but that is not what is happening. lol and you know this how the answer is you dont. wrong again tom/**guy. ive run small businesses off and on since i was 14. and with your current living conditions i would say that your knowledge is limited at best. i have knowledge of experience behind me. in 1961 i was making more per hour than the president of the local bank in a dry prairie community with no lawns to speak of running a lawn mowing service. the going wage at the time was $1/hr and i was making $5/hr and had one other kid as an employee. then your bank was very small if the president was making less than $5.00 an hour even in 1961. you probably werent even a dream in your daddys eye then. and this has to do with what if you were so successful at around 14 years old with polio what the hell happened to you now as a matter of fact i told you that they didnt and that they were just ripping you off. you are just justifying t

From : max340

overhead is accounted for in the shop labor rate specialized equipment that doesnt fall under general servicing gets billed according to the provisions of the labor time manual. bingo. precisely as i explained it to tbone. were i to be employed by someone and had to supply my own scan tool etc. the charges for that would have been negotiated at the time of hire possibly a split flat rate scale. again a seperate charge for use of specialized equipment. the above and this are not very much different from here just handled in a bit different way. its still billed out to the consumer in the end. hell its not uncommon for a customer to call and ask to have the vehicle picked up and they tell you where the spare house key is so you can let yourself in and grab the keys off the hook. gotta love living in an area where ya can actually trust the guy down at the garage or where ever without question. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : theguy

on mon 05 jan 2004 221836 gmt budd cochran mr-d150@spamcitlink.net wrote reread the words you use ok i reread the words that i used. especially when it comes to redefining words to suit your purpose if that is the criteria then we are all tom. and tell us again how you are not tom. how im not tom that makes no sense. youre building up a case against yourself and not smart enough to realize it. what is the case that i am building up against myself oh boy deputy budd is on the case. budd cochran on 02 jan 2004 223039 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote one i never called gary every name in the book. never said ya did simply noted your willingness to do so try reading. actually over the years i have called him very few. proving my point. i have a very big book max. yes and im sure its hidden under your veil. second you will have to show me where i accused gary of fraudulant business practices. the beginning of this thread where you reply to denny thanks for the question that is pretty much where im coming from. i have an honest mechanic while gary is a rip off artist. im not going to question your mechanics honesty but i think you are wrong about gary. he sounds above board to me. fair enough. he just seems pretty bottom drawer to me. or this maybe that is the reason why you are still crawling under cars rather than hiring people to crawl under cars gary; you dont have any diea what the hell you are doing. and the original reply to denny thanks for the question that is pretty much where im coming from. i have an honest mechanic while gary is a rip off artist. rip off artist = fraudulant business practices. i nevefr did this is just more stupid spin on your part. really the posts are there for all to see..... looks to me like you are lying. having been on this group for about four years i have plenty of reason to judge your behavior as well as garys and budds. with no reason what fucking ng have you been reading you said its not real. if its not real no reason to judge. sorry to upset your delicate little sensibilites max. no upset here just amusement that you cant seem to decide how real this is and whether or not to stick to what you claim is the right way to do things. btw when are ya gonna let us in on who the bankrupt bouncer is and if you really think thats me when are ya gonna provide proof come on drop the veil open the big book of insults and get on stage the audience is waiting!!! max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. well max if you are so amused but not upset what motivates you to follow my posts so closely it is flattering though so thank you. however even then i dont see where i ever called gary a fraud other than by your definition. now i realize that you used to teach school but never the less i am not going ot be bound by your definitions such as they are. oh and you are the one who said you were a bar bouncer. you are also the one who said you had filed bankruptcy. i was only going on your statements so if they are wrong you indeed are a liar. but then i really dont care if you are lying or not. its all just too much fun. and before you step on your tongue any more the veil of secrecy was budds accusation. to just picked it up like you because it was such a stupid assertion. i am glad that we agree on something while you still have a long ways to go it is a step in the right direction for you. over or is the bar open now .

From : tbone

now everybody is me wow how cool is that!!! wait a minute ... does that mean that budd is like me too aaaahhh now i have to go shoot myself. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving on mon 05 jan 2004 221836 gmt budd cochran mr-d150@spamcitlink.net wrote reread the words you use ok i reread the words that i used. especially when it comes to redefining words to suit your purpose if that is the criteria then we are all tom. and tell us again how you are not tom. how im not tom that makes no sense. youre building up a case against yourself and not smart enough to realize it. what is the case that i am building up against myself oh boy deputy budd is on the case. budd cochran on 02 jan 2004 223039 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote one i never called gary every name in the book. never said ya did simply noted your willingness to do so try reading. actually over the years i have called him very few. proving my point. i have a very big book max. yes and im sure its hidden under your veil. second you will have to show me where i accused gary of fraudulant business practices. the beginning of this thread where you reply to denny thanks for the question that is pretty much where im coming from. i have an honest mechanic while gary is a rip off artist. im not going to question your mechanics honesty but i think you are wrong about gary. he sounds above board to me. fair enough. he just seems pretty bottom drawer to me. or this maybe that is the reason why you are still crawling under cars rather than hiring people to crawl under cars gary; you dont have any diea what the hell you are doing. and the original reply to denny thanks for the question that is pretty much where im coming from. i have an honest mechanic while gary is a rip off artist. rip off artist = fraudulant business practices. i nevefr did this is just more stupid spin on your part. really the posts are there for all to see..... looks to me like you are lying. having been on this group for about four years i have plenty of reason to judge your behavior as well as garys and budds. with no reason what fucking ng have you been reading you said its not real. if its not real no reason to judge. sorry to upset your delicate little sensibilites max. no upset here just amusement that you cant seem to decide how real this is and whether or not to stick to what you claim is the right way to do things. btw when are ya gonna let us in on who the bankrupt bouncer is and if you really think thats me when are ya gonna provide proof come on drop the veil open the big book of insults and get on stage the audience is waiting!!! max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. well max if you are so amused but not upset what motivates you to follow my posts so closely it is flattering though so thank you. however even then i dont see where i ever called gary a fraud other than by your definition. now i realize that you used to teach school but never the less i am not going ot be bound by your definitions such as they are. oh and you are the one who said you were a bar bouncer. you are also the one who said you had filed bankruptcy. i was only going on your statements so if they are wrong you indeed are a liar. but then i really dont care if you are lying or not. its all just too much fun. and before you step on your tongue any more the veil of secrecy was budds accusation. to just picked it up like you because it was such a stupid assertion. i am glad that we agree on something while you still have a long ways to go it is a step in the right direction for you. over or is the bar open now .

From : jerry

tbone wrote aaaahhh now i have to go shoot myself. promises............promises jerry .

From : tbone

dont worry jerry i know that you would miss me far to much for me to actually do that. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving tbone wrote aaaahhh now i have to go shoot myself. promises............promises jerry .

From : tbone

max340@aol.compost max340 wrote overhead is accounted for in the shop labor rate specialized equipment that doesnt fall under general servicing gets billed according to the provisions of the labor time manual. bingo. precisely as i explained it to tbone. actually no you didnt. i never said a diagnostic should not be charged for i said that a hookup fee is a bogus charge. one can only imagine the frustration his school teachers felt. it is there job to expalin why things are te way that they are not just tell me that it is so. were i to be employed by someone and had to supply my own scan tool etc. the charges for that would have been negotiated at the time of hire possibly a split flat rate scale. again a seperate charge for use of specialized equipment. the above and this are not very much different from here just handled in a bit different way. its still billed out to the consumer in the end. and then theres the flip side where if the customer doesnt see mention of any diagnostics youre setting yourself up because there is no proof that they were done to begin with. lol you are kidding right. boils down to; theyre *his* codes not mine if he wants the problem fixed hes going to have to pay for the necessary steps to do so. if you add the time to your labor charge that it takes you to read the codes including plugging in the machine and determine what they mean including further tests fair enough. if you also charge them a flat fee on top of all of that just to hook up the tester then you are ripping them off any way that you spin it. hell its not uncommon for a customer to call and ask to have the vehicle picked up and they tell you where the spare house key is so you can let yourself in and grab the keys off the hook. gotta love living in an area where ya can actually trust the guy down at the garage or where ever without question. i certainly do. as ive often said maybe not here though theres plenty of honest money to be made no need to resort to crooked practices. and yet they do it anyway imagine that. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : max340

and then theres the flip side where if the customer doesnt see mention of any diagnostics youre setting yourself up because there is no proof that they were done to begin with. yeah i didnt get charged for it so it was never done. boils down to; theyre *his* codes not mine if he wants the problem fixed hes going to have to pay for the necessary steps to do so. and since all the shops i know charge for diagnostics and the use of specialized tools such as a scanner he can claim its a bs unjustified profiteering cost all he likes its just not so. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : max340

actually no you didnt. i never said a diagnostic should not be charged for i said that a hookup fee is a bogus charge. and i said it wasnt and neil concurs as he said specialized equipment that doesnt fall under general servicing gets billed according to the provisions of the labor time manual. it is there job to expalin why things are te way that they are not just tell me that it is so. which would explain their frustration with you. if you also charge them a flat fee on top of all of that just to hook up the tester then you are ripping them off any way that you spin it. so its ok to charge to use a tool but its not ok to charge for a tool that costs over and above what most tool boxes cost again it comes down to the simple fairness of charging for what was done and not charging everyone for the use of an expensive tool that never got near their vehicle. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : s millertbone

in addition to the tdr site also look at www.dieseltruckresource.com for a lot of good info. i just bought my first diesel and while its definitely a different experience from a gas engine i do like it... the cummins really grows on you quickly. if youre going to be doing any significant towing at all there really isnt any other way to go. diesels do use a specific oil but it is no more expensive per quart than standard automotive oil. btw i just did my first oil change a short while ago with rotella the supposedly smelly one and i didnt notice any additional odor at all. me wrote of course its a dodge.. i was just reading a post about the oil.. do you need to buy a specific brand do some brands produce an odor when you drive i guess im saying i dont know half as much as i thought i did but i still want my 1 ton .. thanks guys... some real interesting and informative posts here ive been lurking for months. .

From : tbone

actually no you didnt. i never said a diagnostic should not be charged for i said that a hookup fee is a bogus charge. and i said it wasnt and neil concurs as he said specialized equipment that doesnt fall under general servicing gets billed according to the provisions of the labor time manual. in todays world a code reader or diagnostic machine is far from a specialized tool and iirc he said that he does not charge for hooking up a reader. it is there job to expalin why things are te way that they are not just tell me that it is so. which would explain their frustration with you. tuff shit for them huh. if you also charge them a flat fee on top of all of that just to hook up the tester then you are ripping them off any way that you spin it. so its ok to charge to use a tool no it isnt and i never said that it was. but its not ok to charge for a tool that costs over and above what most tool boxes cost that is correct. if you didnt have the tool then you couldnt do the job so the tool pays for itself in the fact that it allow you to do the work. again it comes down to the simple fairness of charging for what was done and not charging everyone for the use of an expensive tool that never got near their vehicle. you make no sense and this is just more bullshit spin. if you didnt have the tool you couldnt do the job simple as that. to doube charge the customer for a tool that you need to do your job anyway is a ripoff any way that you spin it. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

tbone fatchance@noway.now wrote in todays world a code reader or diagnostic machine is far from a specialized tool and iirc they are can you use them to do an oil change can you use them to lift a vehicle off the ground how about to remove a tire/wheel replace brake shoes/pads r & r an alternator scrape an old gasket remove trim screws to access an instrument cluster hold a transverse engine in place while r & r-ing a transaxle do they work well as breaker bar can you use them to press bearing into place well neil that would make every one of these tools a speciality tool since they all have their specific purpose. do you have a lift charge and a wrench charge as well or do you use the lift to scrape gaskets this is just semantics and spin. he said that he does not charge for hooking up a reader. i said that because merely hooking up a scan tool does little to accomplish anything. that is correct and exactly my point. snip so its ok to charge to use a tool no it isnt and i never said that it was. its virtually impossible or pointless depending on your view to use a tool as is being discussed and not impart some sort of *for value* service as part of the process. the value comes from the tech or mechanic using it unless you now have tools that are capable of hooking itself up and making the repair without you. but its not ok to charge for a tool that costs over and above what most tool boxes cost that is correct. if you didnt have the tool then you couldnt do the job so the tool pays for itself in the fact that it allow you to do the work. in this case the tool conveys information information costs money the person seeking the information gets to pay for having that information provided to them. like i said bullshit charges creative accounting and semantics. the simple fact is that the person needing the information is the mechanic or tech not the customer. you are the one hired to find the problem and make the repair and therefore the one needing the information to do it properly not the customer. since you are the customer in that case it should be you paying the cost and you do that in the cost of the tools that you use. if you believe differently call identifix mitchell on demand or alldata and see what theyre giving away for free today. they are selling you a finished product that happens to be information. i bet that you would be pissed if they added a research or a computer filing line item to your cost on top of what they already charge. you are selling a diagnosis and repair of a vehicle. the cost to get the information to do that is your cost not the customers since that information is in most cases useless to them. as for not being able to do the job without a scan tool ill tell you i worked flat rate for many years in a chevrolet dealership doing driveability work without any scan tool available zip-zilch-nothing but my dvom. and how much longer did it take you to do that and when exactly did you do this please dont pull a nax special an leave out that it was in the early 80s and these tools did not exist or were thousands of dollars and almost no cars needed them at the time. i noticed that you didnt just bring your dvom in your example. again it comes down to the simple fairness of charging for what was done and not charging everyone for the use of an expensive tool that never got near their vehicle. you make no sense and this is just more bullshit spin. he makes perfect sense. it would be unfair to my customers if my shop labor rate were to be adjusted across the board in order to account for the high end diagnostic equipment. what is fair about someone paying for a brake job having to subsidize the person who has an intermittant check engine light lol you are kidding again right most brake jobs are a fixed price per wheel so how are the two related if you didnt have the tool you couldnt do the job simple as that. to doube charge the customer for a tool that you need to do your job anyway is a ripoff any way that you spin it. to charge in the first place for a tool that isnt being used on a particular vehicle/repair procedure is a rip off. lol more semantics and creative accounting. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : neil nelson

tbone fatchance@noway.now wrote tbone fatchance@noway.now wrote in todays world a code reader or diagnostic machine is far from a specialized tool and iirc they are can you use them to do an oil change can you use them to lift a vehicle off the ground how about to remove a tire/wheel replace brake shoes/pads r & r an alternator scrape an old gasket remove trim screws to access an instrument cluster hold a transverse engine in place while r & r-ing a transaxle do they work well as breaker bar can you use them to press bearing into place well neil that would make every one of these tools a speciality tool since they all have their specific purpose. no they are not specialty tools. they are tools and equipment one would expect to find in any service facility. general service tools able to be used by any mechanic regardless of level of skill. then again feel free to visit every shop in your area tell them you want your car or truck to take a ride up and down on their lift tell them you want it for free. get back to me after they stop laughing... do you have a lift charge and a wrench charge as well nope. but then i wouldnt expect someone whos total experience with a diagnostic tool such as a scanner being five or less instances to understand the difference. or do you use the lift to scrape gaskets oil pan and transmission pan gaskets yup sure you betcha! thats why you can always find some bubba-gomer under a shade tree to do it cheaper mainly because that is all the bubba-gomer is capable of. this is just semantics and spin. according to you. and i might add you seem to be getting better at it. he said that he does not charge for hooking up a reader. i said that because merely hooking up a scan tool does little to accomplish anything. that is correct and exactly my point. i thought your point was that you didnt like seeing things billed out ala cart. the audacity of those shops actually having the nerve to list out on an invoice exactly what the customer recieved for their money. i guess for you the easiest transaction is for the service provider to hand you a blank piece of paper and for you to empty out your wallet on the cashiers counter. snip so its ok to charge to use a tool no it isnt and i never said that it was. its virtually impossible or pointless depending on your view to use a tool as is being discussed and not impart some sort of *for value* service as part of the process. the value comes from the tech or mechanic using it unless you now have tools that are capable of hooking itself up and making the repair without you. yes that is why i find your hook up charges to be totally absurd. you make it sound like there are thousands of shops out there plugging in/unplugging diagnostic testers *just* so they can add it to the bill. but its not ok to charge for a tool that costs over and above what most tool boxes cost that is correct. if you didnt have the tool then you couldnt do the job so the tool pays for itself in the fact that it allow you to do the work. in this case the tool conveys information information costs money the person seeking the information gets to pay for having that information provided to them. like i said bullshit charges creative accounting and semantics. the simple fact is that the person needing the information is the mechanic or tech not the customer. nope. its the customer. its his car he bought it he put the miles on it he broke it and hes asking to have it repaired. up to that point my life maxs life every other mechanics life will go happily on not knowing what that customers mass airflow sensor reading is. you are the one hired to find the problem and make the repair and therefore the one needing the information to do it properly not the customer. well for your sake i hope you never suffeer a broken bone because one of the first things the doctors are going to do is park your ass in front of an x-ray machine and the *are* going to charge you for retreiving the information they feel is necessary to perform service on you. since you are the customer in that case it should be you paying the cost and you do that in the cost of the tools that you use. how can a service provider be a customer at the same time if you believe differently call identifix mitchell on demand or alldata and see what theyre giving away for free today. they are selling you a finished product that happens to be information. just as im selling my customers a finished product. that finished product will cost you $xxx.xx. the fact that the product is itemized is neither here nor there. i bet that you would be pissed if they added a research or a computer filing line item to your cost on top of what they already charge. they do already. this year mine and thousands of other shops get to buy service information all ov

From : tbone

tbone fatchance@noway.now wrote tbone fatchance@noway.now wrote in todays world a code reader or diagnostic machine is far from a specialized tool and iirc they are can you use them to do an oil change can you use them to lift a vehicle off the ground how about to remove a tire/wheel replace brake shoes/pads r & r an alternator scrape an old gasket remove trim screws to access an instrument cluster hold a transverse engine in place while r & r-ing a transaxle do they work well as breaker bar can you use them to press bearing into place well neil that would make every one of these tools a speciality tool since they all have their specific purpose. no they are not specialty tools. they are tools and equipment one would expect to find in any service facility. lol yea sure. do you expect to be able to run a general service facility today without one general service tools able to be used by any mechanic regardless of level of skill. then again feel free to visit every shop in your area tell them you want your car or truck to take a ride up and down on their lift tell them you want it for free. get back to me after they stop laughing... now you have me laughing. while i dont expect them to give my vehicle rides on their lift for nothing i dont expect to see a lift pad placement service fee for general service either. do you do that at your shop do you have a lift charge and a wrench charge as well nope. but then i wouldnt expect someone whos total experience with a diagnostic tool such as a scanner being five or less instances to understand the difference. then you are not as bright as you might think. or do you use the lift to scrape gaskets oil pan and transmission pan gaskets yup sure you betcha! thats why you can always find some bubba-gomer under a shade tree to do it cheaper mainly because that is all the bubba-gomer is capable of. really exactly how do you get the lift to do it please provide pictures. this is just semantics and spin. according to you. and i might add you seem to be getting better at it. he said that he does not charge for hooking up a reader. i said that because merely hooking up a scan tool does little to accomplish anything. that is correct and exactly my point. i thought your point was that you didnt like seeing things billed out ala cart. billed out is fine double billed by creative accounting is a load of crap. the audacity of those shops actually having the nerve to list out on an invoice exactly what the customer recieved for their money. lol it is exactly that when the shop lists it in unrealistic detail and then charges for every item. i guess for you the easiest transaction is for the service provider to hand you a blank piece of paper and for you to empty out your wallet on the cashiers counter. using ignorance to argue a point doesnt say much. snip so its ok to charge to use a tool no it isnt and i never said that it was. its virtually impossible or pointless depending on your view to use a tool as is being discussed and not impart some sort of *for value* service as part of the process. the value comes from the tech or mechanic using it unless you now have tools that are capable of hooking itself up and making the repair without you. yes that is why i find your hook up charges to be totally absurd. you make it sound like there are thousands of shops out there plugging in/unplugging diagnostic testers *just* so they can add it to the bill. that is exactly what im saying and exactly what is happening and the more that it happens the more shops that didnt do it begin to justify doing it themselfs just like you. but its not ok to charge for a tool that costs over and above what most tool boxes cost that is correct. if you didnt have the tool then you couldnt do the job so the tool pays for itself in the fact that it allow you to do the work. in this case the tool conveys information information costs money the person seeking the information gets to pay for having that information provided to them. like i said bullshit charges creative accounting and semantics. the simple fact is that the person needing the information is the mechanic or tech not the customer. nope. its the customer. its his car he bought it he put the miles on it he broke it and hes asking to have it repaired. up to that point my life maxs life every other mechanics life will go happily on not knowing what that customers mass airflow sensor reading is. that is correct but the customer never needs to know what the mass airflow sensor is reading unless he is the one performing the repair. the only one that needs to know this information is the one being payed to perfporm the diagnosis and that is the mechanic. it is amazing how the human mind can justify total bullshit. you are the one hired to f

From : neil nelson

tbone fatchance@noway.now wrote no they are not specialty tools. they are tools and equipment one would expect to find in any service facility. lol yea sure. do you expect to be able to run a general service facility today without one without one what general service tools able to be used by any mechanic regardless of level of skill. then again feel free to visit every shop in your area tell them you want your car or truck to take a ride up and down on their lift tell them you want it for free. get back to me after they stop laughing... now you have me laughing. while i dont expect them to give my vehicle rides on their lift for nothing i dont expect to see a lift pad placement service fee for general service either. its there whether you see it or not. as for the expectations; when your name is tied to the tax documents you then get to dictate. do you do that at your shop yes we laugh. lately its been happening more frequently. nope. but then i wouldnt expect someone whos total experience with a diagnostic tool such as a scanner being five or less instances to understand the difference. then you are not as bright as you might think. thats quite all right since i give very little consideration to how bright you think i am. oil pan and transmission pan gaskets yup sure you betcha! thats why you can always find some bubba-gomer under a shade tree to do it cheaper mainly because that is all the bubba-gomer is capable of. really exactly how do you get the lift to do it please provide pictures. why havent you ever seen a vehicle on a lift being serviced was your whole career in automotive begun and ended in a single afternoon snip i thought your point was that you didnt like seeing things billed out ala cart. billed out is fine double billed by creative accounting is a load of crap. cant sat ive ever seen it not that it isnt possible but i have people bring me invoices all the time questioning what another shop did to their vehicles and i cant recall ever seeing a blatant example. since you claim to do all of your own repairs and maintanance i have to question whether its ever happened to you. the audacity of those shops actually having the nerve to list out on an invoice exactly what the customer recieved for their money. lol it is exactly that when the shop lists it in unrealistic detail and then charges for every item. so youre saying that a certain percentage of the services/goods recieved should be given away for free and this extortion/taxation without representation/gratuity/charity is justified by what again you do realize that you are more than welcome to use toilet paper from the roll as needed but you are not entitled to take the roll of toilet paper home with you dont you i guess for you the easiest transaction is for the service provider to hand you a blank piece of paper and for you to empty out your wallet on the cashiers counter. using ignorance to argue a point doesnt say much. where is there an arguement its my business i take the risks i make the rules. dont like my business rules try the shop down the street. snip yes that is why i find your hook up charges to be totally absurd. you make it sound like there are thousands of shops out there plugging in/unplugging diagnostic testers *just* so they can add it to the bill. that is exactly what im saying and exactly what is happening and the more that it happens the more shops that didnt do it begin to justify doing it themselfs just like you. just like me where is your proof that ive ever double billed someone. how could it be possible for someone who does his own maintanance and repair work to have such extensive experience on t needs to know this information is the one being payed to perfporm the diagnosis and that is the mechanic. it is amazing how the human mind can justify total bullshit. or be so simplistic. what possible difference could it make if the repair bill says; diagnose and replace mass airflow sensor........$300.00 or scan for codes test maf circuits...................$50.00 mass air flow sensor......................................$250.00 either way the total comes to $300.00 well for your sake i hope you never suffeer a broken bone because one of the first things the doctors are going to do is park your ass in front of an x-ray machine and the *are* going to charge you for retreiving the information they feel is necessary to perform service on you. lol that is for a specific independent test and the x-rays are yours if you want them. printer paper is cheap i go thru lots of it. diagnostic print-outs go in the customers file copies are free for the asking. i dont recall ever seeing an x-ray machine hookup fee or a film loading fee added to the bill for the test. gee in 34 years i dont ever recall seeing a scanner hook-up fee or a fee for loading pa

From : roy

we took about a 4 hour highway trip over the holidays in a 1998 dakota 4z4 with the 5.2 l v8. the truck has about 99000 miles on it. while crusing around 65 mph i noticed the tach would run at about 1900 rpms and then suddendly jump to about 2300 rpms and then back to the crusing speed. it was as if it was popping out of overdrive into 3rd -- it lasted about 1/2 a second. over the 3 hour trip this happened about 20 times. it didnt matter if i was going 70 or 55. is my tranny breaking could be the tps or the brake light switch. roy .

From : miles

a.melon wrote we took about a 4 hour highway trip over the holidays in a 1998 dakota 4z4 with the 5.2 l v8. the truck has about 99000 miles on it. while crusing around 65 mph i noticed the tach would run at about 1900 rpms and then suddendly jump to about 2300 rpms and then back to the crusing speed. it was as if it was popping out of overdrive into 3rd -- it lasted about 1/2 a second. over the 3 hour trip this happened about 20 times. it didnt matter if i was going 70 or 55. is my tranny breaking probably not your tranny at all. however if you drive it like this much then it could cause the tranny to overheat and become scrap. what you have described is the torque converter unlocking. the most likely cause of this is the throttle position sensor. another possible cause is a bad brake pedal switch. do this as a quick test. drive on the highway at a constant rate in od. just tap your brake pedal very lightly for a split second. you should see the rpms jump up very briefly duplicating your experience. the computer will unlock the tc when the brake pedal is depressed. .

From : tarapia tapioco

miles i tried your experiement with the break pedal nothing happened w/ the tach at all. im wondering if your other suggestion throttle position sensor i have never heard of that so ive never replaced it before. what do you think about the costs of the part and the ease of installation is this something a novice can do thanks for the ideas all! miles unknown@unlistedspam.com wrote a.melon wrote we took about a 4 hour highway trip over the holidays in a 1998 dakota 4z4 with the 5.2 l v8. the truck has about 99000 miles on it. while crusing around 65 mph i noticed the tach would run at about 1900 rpms and then suddendly jump to about 2300 rpms and then back to the crusing speed. it was as if it was popping out of overdrive into 3rd -- it lasted about 1/2 a second. over the 3 hour trip this happened about 20 times. it didnt matter if i was going 70 or 55. is my tranny breaking probably not your tranny at all. however if you drive it like this much then it could cause the tranny to overheat and become scrap. what you have described is the torque converter unlocking. the most likely cause of this is the throttle position sensor. another possible cause is a bad brake pedal switch. do this as a quick test. drive on the highway at a constant rate in od. just tap your brake pedal very lightly for a split second. you should see the rpms jump up very briefly duplicating your experience. the computer will unlock the tc when the brake pedal is depressed. .

From : miles

tarapia tapioco wrote miles i tried your experiement with the break pedal nothing happened w/ the tach at all. im wondering if your other suggestion throttle position sensor i have never heard of that so ive never replaced it before. what do you think about the costs of the part and the ease of installation is this something a novice can do tapping the break pedal very slightly should still cause the rpms to go up as long as you didnt break hard enough to bring it back down. the throttle position sensor i believe is easy to replace. i have not had to do so myself though. i believe it runs about $150 at the dealer. might call around and see if you can find it for less. .

From : tom lawrence

the throttle position sensor i believe is easy to replace. i have not had to do so myself though. i believe it runs about $150 at the dealer. $43 list price - can be had for about $30 if you have a nice dealer. takes all of 5 minutes to replace. youll need a torx screwdriver t-15 maybe .

From : redneck tookover hell

i have not had to do so myself though. i believe it runs about $150 at the dealer. might call around and see if you can find it for less. or maybe you should tell him to take it and actually have it tested. throwing parts at this is not going to solve his problem unless its having too much money in his wallet. your method will certainly solve that ill start watching reality tv shows when i can vote people off the planet. .

From : miles

redneck tookover hell wrote i have not had to do so myself though. i believe it runs about $150 at the dealer. might call around and see if you can find it for less. or maybe you should tell him to take it and actually have it tested. throwing parts at this is not going to solve his problem unless its having too much money in his wallet. your method will certainly solve that thank you so much for your ever so helpfull insight. now why not skip the middleman and offer some of your wonderful technical auto repair knowledge to the op .

From : miles

tom lawrence wrote the throttle position sensor i believe is easy to replace. i have not had to do so myself though. i believe it runs about $150 at the dealer. $43 list price - can be had for about $30 if you have a nice dealer. takes all of 5 minutes to replace. youll need a torx screwdriver t-15 maybe when my tps went out on my 2000 ram the dealer had stated it was about $150+parts but they replaced it under warranty so i never saw the actual price. at that price its easier to replace it yourself rather than take it to the dealer where you often pay around $75 for diagnoses + parts + labor. .

From : denny

tom lawrence wrote the throttle position sensor i believe is easy to replace. i have not had to do so myself though. i believe it runs about $150 at the dealer. $43 list price - can be had for about $30 if you have a nice dealer. takes all of 5 minutes to replace. youll need a torx screwdriver t-15 maybe when my tps went out on my 2000 ram the dealer had stated it was about $150+parts but they replaced it under warranty so i never saw the actual price. at that price its easier to replace it yourself rather than take it to the dealer where you often pay around $75 for diagnoses + parts + labor. would it be a bad idea to have the dealer or independent shop diagnose the problem and then you could put the part on yourself if it wasnt too difficult seems like guessing without diagnosing would get very expensive quickly. denny .

From : dennydenny

i just got a 7.5 foot curtis snow plow on my 2002 dodge ram 1500 quad cab 4x4. curtis makes the snow plow for the rams and adds stronger timbrins sp as part of the application. i know fisher diamond and meyers do not make a snow plow for the ram 1500 and dodge does not recommend it. i intend to use it for driveways. i have a few questions for experienced folks 1 anyone else using the curtis snow plow on same truck nope. i use a meyers blade. 2 while driving plow seems to creep down or settle out. it lowers about 4 - 6 inches then seems to stay put. is this normal i wouldnt think so. hydraulics of any kind should not bleed off. 3 the temp gauage on the console above the rear view mirror now reads about 110 f. direction still seems okay. must be a bad sensor or electical problem related to installation of plow as this just started. any thought where is the sensor located sensor is located behind the grill. when traveling down the road with the blade all the way up airflow is very restricted thru the grill. this is why your outside temp is reading high and your coolant temp guage probably went up a little bit. when traveling you should keep your speed under 35-40 mph for cooling and safety reasons. 4 any pointers re plowing for a newbie. i did a few searches but so far nothing useful. this list could go for several pages. g lets just say go slow be carefull when backing up and that last six inches of snow laying by the garage door-brick edging-curb-lamp post-whatever really isnt that important to get. sooner or later you are going to oops but hopefully it will be a minor one. one more. change your plow oil yearly. theres nothing worse than a frozen pump or solinoid when its zero outside. denny .

From : gary glaenzer

tom lawrence wrote the throttle position sensor i believe is easy to replace. i have not had to do so myself though. i believe it runs about $150 at the dealer. $43 list price - can be had for about $30 if you have a nice dealer. takes all of 5 minutes to replace. youll need a torx screwdriver t-15 maybe when my tps went out on my 2000 ram the dealer had stated it was about $150+parts but they replaced it under warranty so i never saw the actual price. at that price its easier to replace it yourself rather than take it to the dealer where you often pay around $75 for diagnoses + parts + labor. would it be a bad idea to have the dealer or independent shop diagnose the problem and then you could put the part on yourself if it wasnt too difficult seems like guessing without diagnosing would get very expensive quickly. yes it does but some folks have this thing about allowing a qualified person to diagnose a problem they have this fixation on the amount charged for the diagnosis believing that paying 30 to 60 bucks for what they peceive as a tiny amount of work as a rip off they fail to take into account the investment in service manuals scan tools updates for scan tools new cables for scan tools time spent on the phone with tech services time spent sitting in a classroom learning more about modern day systems the inevitable unbillable hours spent on the first time this problem came thru the door phone bill power bill internet service bill computer to give internet access to information services computer upgrades insurance on the premises insurance on tools advertising promotions give-aways to service organizations for their fund-raisers donations to charities interest on the loans to finance new equipment purchases taxes on the shop time spent doing bookkeeping for federal state and local governments time and effort spent to insure epa compliance and on and on and on ad nauseum they see only the act of plugging a scan tool into a vehicle pushing a few buttons and reading a code. never mind that the first time one of this model/year/make came in it was a half-day struggle to even get the scan tool to communicate because the vehicle maker and the scan tool provider are not exactly on friendly terms information-exchange-wise hell to this day im waiting for a call back from otc on why my otc-4000e will not read transmission data on full-size 97 gm trucks well get back to you in a week or so said the otc national service manage on sept 12 2000 in las vegas so let em rant and rave and go on with their its cheaper to replace it nothing you or i will say can convince them that a fee for diagnosis is a bargain........................ .

From : daguy

on sun 28 dec 2003 012529 gmt gary glaenzer nobulltrans@mchsi.com wrote tom lawrence wrote the throttle position sensor i believe is easy to replace. i have not had to do so myself though. i believe it runs about $150 at the dealer. $43 list price - can be had for about $30 if you have a nice dealer. takes all of 5 minutes to replace. youll need a torx screwdriver t-15 maybe when my tps went out on my 2000 ram the dealer had stated it was about $150+parts but they replaced it under warranty so i never saw the actual price. at that price its easier to replace it yourself rather than take it to the dealer where you often pay around $75 for diagnoses + parts + labor. would it be a bad idea to have the dealer or independent shop diagnose the problem and then you could put the part on yourself if it wasnt too difficult seems like guessing without diagnosing would get very expensive quickly. yes it does but some folks have this thing about allowing a qualified person to diagnose a problem they have this fixation on the amount charged for the diagnosis believing that paying 30 to 60 bucks for what they peceive as a tiny amount of work as a rip off they fail to take into account the investment in service manuals scan tools updates for scan tools new cables for scan tools time spent on the phone with tech services time spent sitting in a classroom learning more about modern day systems the inevitable unbillable hours spent on the first time this problem came thru the door phone bill power bill internet service bill computer to give internet access to information services computer upgrades insurance on the premises insurance on tools advertising promotions give-aways to service organizations for their fund-raisers donations to charities interest on the loans to finance new equipment purchases taxes on the shop time spent doing bookkeeping for federal state and local governments time and effort spent to insure epa compliance and on and on and on ad nauseum they see only the act of plugging a scan tool into a vehicle pushing a few buttons and reading a code. never mind that the first time one of this model/year/make came in it was a half-day struggle to even get the scan tool to communicate because the vehicle maker and the scan tool provider are not exactly on friendly terms information-exchange-wise hell to this day im waiting for a call back from otc on why my otc-4000e will not read transmission data on full-size 97 gm trucks well get back to you in a week or so said the otc national service manage on sept 12 2000 in las vegas so let em rant and rave and go on with their its cheaper to replace it nothing you or i will say can convince them that a fee for diagnosis is a bargain........................ maybe it depends on the mechanic gary. now for my sons bmw i got a mechanic who i do pay for the diagnostic but he figures it is part of the deal in fixing the thing. i take it to him and he tells me what is wrong with it. then he charges me to fix it not to diagnose it. seems a little strange gary to take it to you to pay $60 to tell me what you are going to charge me to fix it. i mean the reason that i would take it to you if i had like a 104 degree fever and wasnt acting rational that it is to fix it not to tell me that you are going to charge me $60 to tell me how much it costs to fix it. now on my dodge truck it is a whole different deal. it is under warranty so they just have to fix it. maybe that is the reason why you are still crawling under cars rather than hiring people to crawl under cars gary; you dont have any diea what the hell you are doing. anyway im just saying gary nothing personal. now dont go and get all pissed off again. .

From : gary glaenzer

on sun 28 dec 2003 012529 gmt gary glaenzer nobulltrans@mchsi.com wrote tom lawrence wrote the throttle position sensor i believe is easy to replace. i have not had to do so myself though. i believe it runs about $150 at the dealer. $43 list price - can be had for about $30 if you have a nice dealer. takes all of 5 minutes to replace. youll need a torx screwdriver t-15 maybe when my tps went out on my 2000 ram the dealer had stated it was about $150+parts but they replaced it under warranty so i never saw the actual price. at that price its easier to replace it yourself rather than take it to the dealer where you often pay around $75 for diagnoses + parts + labor. would it be a bad idea to have the dealer or independent shop diagnose the problem and then you could put the part on yourself if it wasnt too difficult seems like guessing without diagnosing would get very expensive quickly. yes it does but some folks have this thing about allowing a qualified person to diagnose a problem they have this fixation on the amount charged for the diagnosis believing that paying 30 to 60 bucks for what they peceive as a tiny amount of work as a rip off they fail to take into account the investment in service manuals scan tools updates for scan tools new cables for scan tools time spent on the phone with tech services time spent sitting in a classroom learning more about modern day systems the inevitable unbillable hours spent on the first time this problem came thru the door phone bill power bill internet service bill computer to give internet access to information services computer upgrades insurance on the premises insurance on tools advertising promotions give-aways to service organizations for their fund-raisers donations to charities interest on the loans to finance new equipment purchases taxes on the shop time spent doing bookkeeping for federal state and local governments time and effort spent to insure epa compliance and on and on and on ad nauseum they see only the act of plugging a scan tool into a vehicle pushing a few buttons and reading a code. never mind that the first time one of this model/year/make came in it was a half-day struggle to even get the scan tool to communicate because the vehicle maker and the scan tool provider are not exactly on friendly terms information-exchange-wise hell to this day im waiting for a call back from otc on why my otc-4000e will not read transmission data on full-size 97 gm trucks well get back to you in a week or so said the otc national service manage on sept 12 2000 in las vegas so let em rant and rave and go on with their its cheaper to replace it nothing you or i will say can convince them that a fee for diagnosis is a bargain........................ maybe it depends on the mechanic gary. now for my sons bmw i got a mechanic who i do pay for the diagnostic but he figures it is part of the deal in fixing the thing. i take it to him and he tells me what is wrong with it. then he charges me to fix it not to diagnose it. seems a little strange gary to take it to you to pay $60 to tell me what you are going to charge me to fix it. i mean the reason that i would take it to you if i had like a 104 degree fever and wasnt acting rational that it is to fix it not to tell me that you are going to charge me $60 to tell me how much it costs to fix it. now on my dodge truck it is a whole different deal. it is under warranty so they just have to fix it. maybe that is the reason why you are still crawling under cars rather than hiring people to crawl under cars gary; you dont have any diea what the hell you are doing. maybe you should read what i wrote again with comprehension nowhere did i say id charge someone to tell them how much it would cost to fix it...i said that some people view the charge as a rip-off because they dont know or care to understand what it costs to be in a position to do the diagnosis try reading it again or if you prefer i can re-write it in words of one syllable anyway im just saying gary nothing personal. now dont go and get all pissed off again. it would serve no purpose to get pissed off at someone like yourself who obviously has a severe comprehension problem and attempts to put words into my mouth claiming that i said something that was nowhere close to what i said but it is refreshing to see that you are so well-trained that anything i write is a doofus-magnet for the likes of yourself that you come running and hump my leg looking for attention so heres your doggy-yum now go find somebody elses leg to hump rover .

From : barry s

on sun 28 dec 2003 021023 gmt denny wddodge@woh.rr.com wrote i kinda curious on something mr. daguy in your bmw example lets say a brake light did not work and the bulb was ok. it took your mechanic one hour to find a wire that was loose in a connector somewhere under the dash. now it only takes one minute to push the connector back in place. do you expect to pay the one hour your mechanic had in it finding the problem or just the one minute to fix it. dont really want to get into an argument over this just want to see where youre coming from. if i was working at the shop the bmw was taken to the original estimate would have probably been for 1-2 hours labor to diagnose the problem. bmws shop rate is about $100 around here.. $100-$200 to diagnose and push the connector.. the bad for the tech is that sometimes theyll spend 4 hours diagnosing a problem that pays 2. note to reply replace the word spam embedded in return address with mail. n38.6 w121.4 .

From : greg o

thanks for the question that is pretty much where im coming from. i have an honest mechanic while gary is a rip off artist. i would like to see you back up that claim. gary has been around here for quite a while given plenty of free advice. he even hooked me up with a supply of quality parts at wholesale price. you are humping the wrong leg spouting crap like this around here! greg .

From : miles

denny wrote would it be a bad idea to have the dealer or independent shop diagnose the problem and then you could put the part on yourself if it wasnt too difficult seems like guessing without diagnosing would get very expensive quickly. if you can find a dealer or other shop that will diagnose it for free. most here charge $75-$85 just to look at it. it depends on what the problem is and the knowledge of the owner. for $30-$40 with the symptoms this guy mentioned id put a tps in and try it. mind you thats what i would do. that may not be the best choice for everyone. taking it to a shop can sometimes get very expensive as well. often they do not diagnose it correctly the first time. that wont stop them from charging the $75 fee plus parts plus labor. then when it still has a problem you take it back whereby they say the part replaced was bad but theres something else bad too. round and round we go back and forth forking out more $s. iows the shops guess as well. i realize not all shops do that but it happens all to often. if you find a great shop then take all your business there and treat them well as they will return the favor. not easy to find a good shop. .

From : denny

on sun 28 dec 2003 021023 gmt denny wddodge@woh.rr.com wrote excellent example denny. my mechanic did indeed find a bulb that was out. it was in the tranny shift indicator light. why when he went to replace the bulb he even found that there was wiring problem he idid fix the bulb finally. he charged me under $2 which was the cost of the bulb. im not familiar with bmw. did he have to take the cluster out to get to the indicator bulb how long did it take to replace it do you supply free labor at your job thanks for the question that is pretty much where im coming from. i have an honest mechanic while gary is a rip off artist. im not going to question your mechanics honesty but i think you are wrong about gary. he sounds above board to me. denny thanks for the chance to explain. .

From : miles

gary glaenzer wrote but some folks have this thing about allowing a qualified person to diagnose a problem they have this fixation on the amount charged for the diagnosis believing that paying 30 to 60 bucks for what they peceive as a tiny amount of work as a rip off im not of that type. i have no problem paying $65 an hour labor for a skilled person to correctly diagnose and repair my truck. i do have problems paying their fees to mis-diagnose over and over and each time asking me to pay more $s. my current dealer has tried to do that but a quick talk with the service manager has always resolved the situation satisfactorly. i now never deal with the service reps when taking my truck in. i go straight to the service manager. perfect service every time. trouble is that one manager cant possibly handle all cars coming in and that for me seems to be the only way to get things done right the first time and not be hit up for excessive charges. they see only the act of plugging a scan tool into a vehicle pushing a few buttons and reading a code. too bad so many techs struggle to diagnose a problem for which the computer doesnt diagnose for them with a code. techs arent as good as they used to be imho. so let em rant and rave and go on with their its cheaper to replace it nothing you or i will say can convince them that a fee for diagnosis is a bargain........................ i never said it wasnt. it depends on the situation and the person who owns the vehicle. .

From : daguy

on sun 28 dec 2003 021023 gmt denny wddodge@woh.rr.com wrote on sun 28 dec 2003 012529 gmt gary glaenzer nobulltrans@mchsi.com wrote tom lawrence wrote the throttle position sensor i believe is easy to replace. i have not had to do so myself though. i believe it runs about $150 at the dealer. $43 list price - can be had for about $30 if you have a nice dealer. takes all of 5 minutes to replace. youll need a torx screwdriver t-15 maybe when my tps went out on my 2000 ram the dealer had stated it was about $150+parts but they replaced it under warranty so i never saw the actual price. at that price its easier to replace it yourself rather than take it to the dealer where you often pay around $75 for diagnoses + parts + labor. would it be a bad idea to have the dealer or independent shop diagnose the problem and then you could put the part on yourself if it wasnt too difficult seems like guessing without diagnosing would get very expensive quickly. yes it does but some folks have this thing about allowing a qualified person to diagnose a problem they have this fixation on the amount charged for the diagnosis believing that paying 30 to 60 bucks for what they peceive as a tiny amount of work as a rip off they fail to take into account the investment in service manuals scan tools updates for scan tools new cables for scan tools time spent on the phone with tech services time spent sitting in a classroom learning more about modern day systems the inevitable unbillable hours spent on the first time this problem came thru the door phone bill power bill internet service bill computer to give internet access to information services computer upgrades insurance on the premises insurance on tools advertising promotions give-aways to service organizations for their fund-raisers donations to charities interest on the loans to finance new equipment purchases taxes on the shop time spent doing bookkeeping for federal state and local governments time and effort spent to insure epa compliance and on and on and on ad nauseum they see only the act of plugging a scan tool into a vehicle pushing a few buttons and reading a code. never mind that the first time one of this model/year/make came in it was a half-day struggle to even get the scan tool to communicate because the vehicle maker and the scan tool provider are not exactly on friendly terms information-exchange-wise hell to this day im waiting for a call back from otc on why my otc-4000e will not read transmission data on full-size 97 gm trucks well get back to you in a week or so said the otc national service manage on sept 12 2000 in las vegas so let em rant and rave and go on with their its cheaper to replace it nothing you or i will say can convince them that a fee for diagnosis is a bargain........................ maybe it depends on the mechanic gary. now for my sons bmw i got a mechanic who i do pay for the diagnostic but he figures it is part of the deal in fixing the thing. i take it to him and he tells me what is wrong with it. then he charges me to fix it not to diagnose it. seems a little strange gary to take it to you to pay $60 to tell me what you are going to charge me to fix it. i mean the reason that i would take it to you if i had like a 104 degree fever and wasnt acting rational that it is to fix it not to tell me that you are going to charge me $60 to tell me how much it costs to fix it. now on my dodge truck it is a whole different deal. it is under warranty so they just have to fix it. maybe that is the reason why you are still crawling under cars rather than hiring people to crawl under cars gary; you dont have any diea what the hell you are doing. anyway im just saying gary nothing personal. now dont go and get all pissed off again. i kinda curious on something mr. daguy in your bmw example lets say a brake light did not work and the bulb was ok. it took your mechanic one hour to find a wire that was loose in a connector somewhere under the dash. now it only takes one minute to push the connector back in place. do you expect to pay the one hour your mechanic had in it finding the problem or just the one minute to fix it. dont really want to get into an argument over this just want to see where youre coming from. denny excellent example denny. my mechanic did indeed find a bulb that was out. it was in the tranny shift indicator light. why when he went to replace the bulb he even found that there was wiring problem he idid fix the bulb finally. he charged me under $2 which was the cost of the bulb. thanks for the question that is pretty much where im coming from. i have an honest mechanic while gary is a rip off artist. thanks for the chance to explain. .

From : daguy

on sun 28 dec 2003 020200 gmt gary glaenzer nobulltrans@mchsi.com wrote on sun 28 dec 2003 012529 gmt gary glaenzer nobulltrans@mchsi.com wrote tom lawrence wrote the throttle position sensor i believe is easy to replace. i have not had to do so myself though. i believe it runs about $150 at the dealer. $43 list price - can be had for about $30 if you have a nice dealer. takes all of 5 minutes to replace. youll need a torx screwdriver t-15 maybe when my tps went out on my 2000 ram the dealer had stated it was about $150+parts but they replaced it under warranty so i never saw the actual price. at that price its easier to replace it yourself rather than take it to the dealer where you often pay around $75 for diagnoses + parts + labor. would it be a bad idea to have the dealer or independent shop diagnose the problem and then you could put the part on yourself if it wasnt too difficult seems like guessing without diagnosing would get very expensive quickly. yes it does but some folks have this thing about allowing a qualified person to diagnose a problem they have this fixation on the amount charged for the diagnosis believing that paying 30 to 60 bucks for what they peceive as a tiny amount of work as a rip off they fail to take into account the investment in service manuals scan tools updates for scan tools new cables for scan tools time spent on the phone with tech services time spent sitting in a classroom learning more about modern day systems the inevitable unbillable hours spent on the first time this problem came thru the door phone bill power bill internet service bill computer to give internet access to information services computer upgrades insurance on the premises insurance on tools advertising promotions give-aways to service organizations for their fund-raisers donations to charities interest on the loans to finance new equipment purchases taxes on the shop time spent doing bookkeeping for federal state and local governments time and effort spent to insure epa compliance and on and on and on ad nauseum they see only the act of plugging a scan tool into a vehicle pushing a few buttons and reading a code. never mind that the first time one of this model/year/make came in it was a half-day struggle to even get the scan tool to communicate because the vehicle maker and the scan tool provider are not exactly on friendly terms information-exchange-wise hell to this day im waiting for a call back from otc on why my otc-4000e will not read transmission data on full-size 97 gm trucks well get back to you in a week or so said the otc national service manage on sept 12 2000 in las vegas so let em rant and rave and go on with their its cheaper to replace it nothing you or i will say can convince them that a fee for diagnosis is a bargain........................ maybe it depends on the mechanic gary. now for my sons bmw i got a mechanic who i do pay for the diagnostic but he figures it is part of the deal in fixing the thing. i take it to him and he tells me what is wrong with it. then he charges me to fix it not to diagnose it. seems a little strange gary to take it to you to pay $60 to tell me what you are going to charge me to fix it. i mean the reason that i would take it to you if i had like a 104 degree fever and wasnt acting rational that it is to fix it not to tell me that you are going to charge me $60 to tell me how much it costs to fix it. now on my dodge truck it is a whole different deal. it is under warranty so they just have to fix it. maybe that is the reason why you are still crawling under cars rather than hiring people to crawl under cars gary; you dont have any diea what the hell you are doing. maybe you should read what i wrote again with comprehension nowhere did i say id charge someone to tell them how much it would cost to fix it...i said that some people view the charge as a rip-off because they dont know or care to understand what it costs to be in a position to do the diagnosis try reading it again or if you prefer i can re-write it in words of one syllable anyway im just saying gary nothing personal. now dont go and get all pissed off again. it would serve no purpose to get pissed off at someone like yourself who obviously has a severe comprehension problem and attempts to put words into my mouth claiming that i said something that was nowhere close to what i said but it is refreshing to see that you are so well-trained that anything i write is a doofus-magnet for the likes of yourself that you come running and hump my leg looking for attention so heres your doggy-yum now go find somebody elses leg to hump rover oh now it looks like i set your fragile little systme off balance again. btw gary why are all your examples so sexual and so abnormal at that over rover. .

From : miles

denny wrote i dont know what you do for a living but do you do it for free they cant! the point was that based on the ops original problem and the most likely cause i would pay $30 for a part and try it before heading to the dealer. $30 is worth my time when there is a high chance it will fix it. if otoh the best guess as to the problem were $500 to do it myself id take it to the dealer and gladly pay them $75 to confirm it or find what the true problem is and get an estimate. if you notice a tail light out on your truck would you try replacing the bulb for $3 first or would you pay $75 diagnoses because it might be an electrical problem i would try the $3 first if that didnt work ill take it to the shop. .

From : miles

denny wrote i kinda curious on something mr. daguy in your bmw example lets say a brake light did not work and the bulb was ok. it took your mechanic one hour to find a wire that was loose in a connector somewhere under the dash. now it only takes one minute to push the connector back in place. do you expect to pay the one hour your mechanic had in it finding the problem or just the one minute to fix it. dont really want to get into an argument over this just want to see where youre coming from. id pay the 1 hour fee. electrical problems are not always easy to find. however heres what happened to me. i took my 1993 nissan altima into the dealer because the cruise control kept disengaging at random times. when i spoke to the service rep i asked him to first check the brake pedal switch because i had tested it with an ohm meter and it appeared flaky and is a common cause for the cruise control problem. when i went to pick it up the dealer had a charge for 3 hours labor. diagnosis bad brake pedal switch replaced. the switch takes about 10 minutes to replace. the service rep admitted he never told the tech what i had stated. they spent most of the time looking at the cruise control itself and didnt think about the brake pedal switch until last. when he remembered what i had asked him to do he changed the charge to 1 hour labor. that was fair and i paid it. now if it had turned out to be something else i would have paid the 3 hours labor it may have taken to diagnose along with 1/2 hour to check the brake pedal switch because i had asked. that would have been fair. .

From : denny

denny wrote i kinda curious on something mr. daguy in your bmw example lets say a brake light did not work and the bulb was ok. it took your mechanic one hour to find a wire that was loose in a connector somewhere under the dash. now it only takes one minute to push the connector back in place. do you expect to pay the one hour your mechanic had in it finding the problem or just the one minute to fix it. dont really want to get into an argument over this just want to see where youre coming from. id pay the 1 hour fee. electrical problems are not always easy to find. however heres what happened to me. i took my 1993 nissan altima into the dealer because the cruise control kept disengaging at random times. when i spoke to the service rep i asked him to first check the brake pedal switch because i had tested it with an ohm meter and it appeared flaky and is a common cause for the cruise control problem. when i went to pick it up the dealer had a charge for 3 hours labor. diagnosis bad brake pedal switch replaced. the switch takes about 10 minutes to replace. the service rep admitted he never told the tech what i had stated. they spent most of the time looking at the cruise control itself and didnt think about the brake pedal switch until last. when he remembered what i had asked him to do he changed the charge to 1 hour labor. that was fair and i paid it. now if it had turned out to be something else i would have paid the 3 hours labor it may have taken to diagnose along with 1/2 hour to check the brake pedal switch because i had asked. that would have been fair. sounds like you found the honest dealer that we were talking about in another thread. did you take in donuts bg just curious as to why you didnt replace the switch yourself when you were under the dash instead of taking it in. denny .

From : denny

gary glaenzer wrote but some folks have this thing about allowing a qualified person to diagnose a problem they have this fixation on the amount charged for the diagnosis believing that paying 30 to 60 bucks for what they peceive as a tiny amount of work as a rip off im not of that type. i have no problem paying $65 an hour labor for a skilled person to correctly diagnose and repair my truck. i do have problems paying their fees to mis-diagnose over and over and each time asking me to pay more $s. my current dealer has tried to do that but a quick talk with the service manager has always resolved the situation satisfactorly. i now never deal with the service reps when taking my truck in. i go straight to the service manager. perfect service every time. trouble is that one manager cant possibly handle all cars coming in and that for me seems to be the only way to get things done right the first time and not be hit up for excessive charges. its a shame the service manager cant get his advisors together for a quick meeting and que them in on how the boss wants his customers treated. you shouldnt have to go to the manager for every little thing. denny .

From : denny

denny wrote i dont know what you do for a living but do you do it for free they cant! the point was that based on the ops original problem and the most likely cause i would pay $30 for a part and try it before heading to the dealer. $30 is worth my time when there is a high chance it will fix it. if otoh the best guess as to the problem were $500 to do it myself id take it to the dealer and gladly pay them $75 to confirm it or find what the true problem is and get an estimate. if you notice a tail light out on your truck would you try replacing the bulb for $3 first or would you pay $75 diagnoses because it might be an electrical problem i would try the $3 first if that didnt work ill take it to the shop. lol we cant keep a discussion going if we both agree. i had to chuckle on that. denny .

From : miles

denny wrote sounds like you found the honest dealer that we were talking about in another thread. did you take in donuts bg just curious as to why you didnt replace the switch yourself when you were under the dash instead of taking it in. i didnt have the time to work on it and i wanted cruise control for a trip taken a few days later. sometimes ill pay the dealer to save me time not because i cant fix it myself. yes this dealer treats me well but only through the service manager never the service reps. just recently i took my truck in because of the check engine light. code said something about emissions leak. the service rep insisted that the code meant the gas cap was bad. i knew that to be a common cause so i had replaced the cap stant not mopar a few weeks earlier and reset the computer. the rep still insisted the cap was bad. so along with the $75 diagnoses fee i paid another $13 for another new cap. when the light came back on i went back to the dealer and went straight to the manager. even though the dealer was packed the manager had a tech look at it immediatly. he found a split vent line from the tank to the solenoid. the manager refunded 1/2 the fee and apologized for not diagnosing it correctly the first time. i had not asked for a refund. for those in the phoenix area this dealer is ed moses dodge. tina the service manager is just fantastic. .

From : max340

now for my sons bmw ya know as if your general demeanor wasnt clue enough i think the fact that anyone in your family owning a bmw clearly denotes you as a jackass with more bullshit than information and fact. but thats nothing personal or anything so dont go and get pissed or anything. funny how some people never get it. max i have add and my friends dont understand look!! a chicken!!! .

From : max340

thanks for the question that is pretty much where im coming from. i have an honest mechanic while gary is a rip off artist. yup no proof of anything he says but he opens his mouth anyway. and hell it took posting the entire thread again for him to be able to clarify that he was gonna accuse someone on this thread of something he couldnt prove if it was true and he had the smoking gun in his hand. meanwhile despite what the bmw owning fact deficient pick a random stupid syllable to fill this spaceguy thinks most shops thta have advanced diagnostic do charge for the use of that equipment. furthermore some people prefer to know what the repair will cost before its done even if the diagnostic is already done charged and paid. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : daguy

on sat 27 dec 2003 220840 -0600 greg o goo1959@cableone.net wrote thanks for the question that is pretty much where im coming from. i have an honest mechanic while gary is a rip off artist. i would like to see you back up that claim. gary has been around here for quite a while given plenty of free advice. he even hooked me up with a supply of quality parts at wholesale price. you are humping the wrong leg spouting crap like this around here! greg hi greg. sorry to say shit about your dad man. .

From : daguy

on sun 28 dec 2003 045315 gmt denny wddodge@woh.rr.com wrote on sun 28 dec 2003 021023 gmt denny wddodge@woh.rr.com wrote excellent example denny. my mechanic did indeed find a bulb that was out. it was in the tranny shift indicator light. why when he went to replace the bulb he even found that there was wiring problem he idid fix the bulb finally. he charged me under $2 which was the cost of the bulb. im not familiar with bmw. did he have to take the cluster out to get to the indicator bulb how long did it take to replace it do you supply free labor at your job no shit intended denny you seem to be one of the decent folks around here but if i knew the answers to your questions i would have fixed the fucking thing myself. thanks for the question that is pretty much where im coming from. i have an honest mechanic while gary is a rip off artist. im not going to question your mechanics honesty but i think you are wrong about gary. he sounds above board to me. fair enough. he just seems pretty bottom drawer to me. denny thanks for the chance to explain. .

From : daguydaguy

on 28 dec 2003 063948 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote now for my sons bmw ya know as if your general demeanor wasnt clue enough i think the fact that anyone in your family owning a bmw clearly denotes you as a jackass with more bullshit than information and fact. yeah anyone with a bmw is a jackass. no generalizing on your part but then from your past posts this is no surprise. but thats nothing personal or anything so dont go and get pissed or anything. whats to get pissed about a bankrupt bar bouncer is mad because i can buy an old bmw for my son. nothing to upsetting there max. hey send me your address and ill send you a picture. you can show all your bar belles the picture and pretend that it is yours. funny how some people never get it. lol. you think max max i have add and my friends dont understand look!! a chicken!!! .

From : daguy

on 28 dec 2003 064823 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote thanks for the question that is pretty much where im coming from. i have an honest mechanic while gary is a rip off artist. yup no proof of anything he says but he opens his mouth anyway. geez and i thought budd was an idiot. this is a ng max. we just type shit here. its not even real max. thats a good thing too. id hate to think that there are real people like you out there outside of the cyber world that is. and hell it took posting the entire thread again for him to be able to clarify that he was gonna accuse someone on this thread of something he couldnt prove if it was true and he had the smoking gun in his hand. say what meanwhile despite what the bmw owning fact deficient pick a random stupid syllable to fill this spaceguy thinks most shops thta have advanced diagnostic do charge for the use of that equipment. furthermore some people prefer to know what the repair will cost before its done even if the diagnostic is already done charged and paid. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : roy

thanks for the question that is pretty much where im coming from. i have an honest mechanic while gary is a rip off artist. yup no proof of anything he says but he opens his mouth anyway. and hell it took posting the entire thread again for him to be able to clarify that he was gonna accuse someone on this thread of something he couldnt prove if it was true and he had the smoking gun in his hand. meanwhile despite what the bmw owning fact deficient pick a random stupid syllable to fill this spaceguy thinks most shops thta have advanced diagnostic do charge for the use of that equipment. furthermore some people prefer to know what the repair will cost before its done even if the diagnostic is already done charged and paid. max again!!!!!! g hope the holiday went well. roy .

From : roy

on sun 28 dec 2003 045315 gmt denny wddodge@woh.rr.com wrote im not familiar with bmw. did he have to take the cluster out to get to the indicator bulb how long did it take to replace it do you supply free labor at your job no shit intended denny you seem to be one of the decent folks around here but if i knew the answers to your questions i would have fixed the fucking thing myself. none taken. i guess what im trying to determine is that in your opinion an honest mechanic is one who works for free are honest mechanics such a low class of people that they should not be paid for their labor do you supply free labor at your job denny no they work for carrots. sorry but ... your point is well taken. dont ya know that a person who gets his hands dirty is kinda looked down upon whether it is mechanics or construction. to those who live in their plastic world and are maxed out on their credit a mechanic even though they probably spend a couple of weeks a year upgrading their skills are looked down upon. now if you went to work in a suit and worked with a pen and phone thats a different story. but alas you are a blue collar worker. it doesnt matter that your toys are paid for or your kids college tuition is all set or that you dont live paycheck to paycheck or you dont cringe every time the phone rings cause of the bill collectors. one thing a mechanic has is a skill that is always in demand a mechanic will always be able to feed his family. take a look at all the suits that are out of work sadly they have no marketable skills other than their field. another thought. i dont know how long most of you have been at your place of employment but most mechanics arent relocating to find work or stay employed. dont really know how i got on this rant but im off. roy .

From : daguy

on sun 28 dec 2003 142009 gmt denny wddodge@woh.rr.com wrote on sun 28 dec 2003 045315 gmt denny wddodge@woh.rr.com wrote im not familiar with bmw. did he have to take the cluster out to get to the indicator bulb how long did it take to replace it do you supply free labor at your job no shit intended denny you seem to be one of the decent folks around here but if i knew the answers to your questions i would have fixed the fucking thing myself. none taken. i guess what im trying to determine is that in your opinion an honest mechanic is one who works for free are honest mechanics such a low class of people that they should not be paid for their labor do you supply free labor at your job denny here is what i think should happen. if you take it in for diagnostics but do not get it repaired by the same shop/mechanic then you should pay whatever the estimate was for the diagnosis. if you take it in to get it fixed then you should pay to get it fixed diagnosing the problem is just part of the repair in that instance. .

From : denny

on sun 28 dec 2003 142009 gmt denny wddodge@woh.rr.com wrote on sun 28 dec 2003 045315 gmt denny wddodge@woh.rr.com wrote im not familiar with bmw. did he have to take the cluster out to get to the indicator bulb how long did it take to replace it do you supply free labor at your job no shit intended denny you seem to be one of the decent folks around here but if i knew the answers to your questions i would have fixed the fucking thing myself. none taken. i guess what im trying to determine is that in your opinion an honest mechanic is one who works for free are honest mechanics such a low class of people that they should not be paid for their labor do you supply free labor at your job denny here is what i think should happen. if you take it in for diagnostics but do not get it repaired by the same shop/mechanic then you should pay whatever the estimate was for the diagnosis. if you take it in to get it fixed then you should pay to get it fixed diagnosing the problem is just part of the repair in that instance. thank you for the clarification. think snow! denny .

From : mac davis

on 28 dec 2003 064823 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote thanks for the question that is pretty much where im coming from. i have an honest mechanic while gary is a rip off artist. yup no proof of anything he says but he opens his mouth anyway. and hell it took posting the entire thread again for him to be able to clarify that he was gonna accuse someone on this thread of something he couldnt prove if it was true and he had the smoking gun in his hand. meanwhile despite what the bmw owning fact deficient pick a random stupid syllable to fill this spaceguy thinks most shops thta have advanced diagnostic do charge for the use of that equipment. furthermore some people prefer to know what the repair will cost before its done even if the diagnostic is already done charged and paid. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. max.. you might add to that thought... that in most cases the diagnostic equipment is very expensive... mac .

From : smokinjoemax340

i just got a 7.5 foot curtis snow plow on my 2002 dodge ram 1500 quad cab 4x4. curtis makes the snow plow for the rams and adds stronger timbrins sp as part of the application. i know fisher diamond and meyers do not make a snow plow for the ram 1500 and dodge does not recommend it. i intend to use it for driveways. i have a few questions for experienced folks 1 anyone else using the curtis snow plow on same truck nope. i use a meyers blade. 2 while driving plow seems to creep down or settle out. it lowers about 4 - 6 inches then seems to stay put. is this normal i wouldnt think so. hydraulics of any kind should not bleed off. 3 the temp gauage on the console above the rear view mirror now reads about 110 f. direction still seems okay. must be a bad sensor or electical problem related to installation of plow as this just started. any thought where is the sensor located sensor is located behind the grill. when traveling down the road with the blade all the way up airflow is very restricted thru the grill. this i

From : max340

your outside temp is reading high and your coolant temp guage probably went up a little bit. when traveling you should keep your speed under 35-40 mph for cooling and safety reasons. 4 any pointers re plowing for a newbie. i did a few searches but so far nothing useful. this list could go for several pages. g lets just say go slow be carefull when backing up and that last six inches of snow laying by the garage door-brick edging-curb-lamp post-whatever really isnt that important to get. sooner or later you are going to oops but hopefully it will be a minor one. one more. change your plow oil yearly. theres nothing worse than a frozen pump or solinoid when its zero outside. denny thanks for the useful response! the temp sensor being where it is makese sense that its reading way high. the engine temp climbs when im on the highway and going 55 right where the dealer told me it would start to loose air flow. the plow still creeps down. it eventually goes all the way down while driving. i have to keep lifting it while underway. im calling them tomorrow as something is clearly wrong. thanks again! .

From : max340

yeah anyone with a bmw is a jackass. no generalizing on your part but then from your past posts this is no surprise. like i said you wouldnt get it and you didnt. whats to get pissed about a bankrupt bar bouncer is mad because i can buy an old bmw for my son. who is this upset bar bouncer with financial troubles hey send me your address and ill send you a picture. you can show all your bar belles the picture and pretend that it is yours. lol no need people around here are more than amused with the big black ram i dont need any other toys. funny how some people never get it. lol. you think max from your response i know. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. . 222 274625 20031228195254.15319.00001639@mb-m12.aol.com again!!!!!! g hope the holiday went well. superbly. lots of fun plenty of food xbox out the wazoo and real eggnog. all thta and friends gretting together each night cant beat it. hope yours was the same. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : max340

max.. you might add to that thought... that in most cases the diagnostic equipment is very expensive... yup so anyone who would think that a decent shop would not charge for diagnostic in some way is deluding themselves. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : max340

dont really know how i got on this rant but im off. all of it true. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : max340

if you take it in to get it fixed then you should pay to get it fixed diagnosing the problem is just part of the repair in that instance. lol so you should pay for whatever labor was done including diagnostics. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : tbone

-- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving if you take it in to get it fixed then you should pay to get it fixed diagnosing the problem is just part of the repair in that instance. lol so you should pay for whatever labor was done including diagnostics. why they cant fix it without diagnosing it and it simply is part of the cost pf doing business. ultimately the customer pays for it anyway so what is the point of charging for it as a separate item do you guarantee your diagnosis to be accurate and if not what write do you have charging for it max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. .

From : tbone

on 28 dec 2003 064823 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote thanks for the question that is pretty much where im coming from. i have an honest mechanic while gary is a rip off artist. yup no proof of anything he says but he opens his mouth anyway. and hell it took posting the entire thread again for him to be able to clarify that he was gonna accuse someone on this thread of something he couldnt prove if it was true and he had the smoking gun in his hand. meanwhile despite what the bmw owning fact deficient pick a random stupid syllable to fill this spaceguy thinks most shops thta have advanced diagnostic do charge for the use of that equipment. furthermore some people prefer to know what the repair will cost before its done even if the diagnostic is already done charged and paid. max anvils dont kill cartoon characters cartoon characters kill cartoon characters. max.. you might add to that thought... that in most cases the diagnostic equipment is very expensive... so what do you think that this expensive equipment serves no benefit to the shop that bought it that equipment allows them to repair vehicles that they would probably have to turn away and to do the jobs that they do take on faster. that is still no excuse to rape the customer by adding an extra charge for a service that they have to do anyway to find the problem. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

tom lawrence wrote the throttle position sensor i believe is easy to replace. i have not had to do so myself though. i believe it runs about $150 at the dealer. $43 list price - can be had for about $30 if you have a nice dealer. takes all of 5 minutes to replace. youll need a torx screwdriver t-15 maybe when my tps went out on my 2000 ram the dealer had stated it was about $150+parts but they replaced it under warranty so i never saw the actual price. at that price its easier to replace it yourself rather than take it to the dealer where you often pay around $75 for diagnoses + parts + labor. would it be a bad idea to have the dealer or independent shop diagnose the problem and then you could put the part on yourself if it wasnt too difficult seems like guessing without diagnosing would get very expensive quickly. yes it does but some folks have this thing about allowing a qualified person to diagnose a problem they have this fixation on the amount charged for the diagnosis believing that paying 30 to 60 bucks for what they peceive as a tiny amount of work as a rip off if it is a tiny amount of work then it is a rip-off. they fail to take into account the investment in service manuals scan tools updates for scan tools new cables for scan tools time spent on the phone with tech services time spent sitting in a classroom learning more about modern day systems the inevitable unbillable hours spent on the first time this problem came thru the door phone bill power bill internet service bill computer to give internet access to information services computer upgrades insurance on the premises insurance on tools advertising promotions give-aways to service organizations for their fund-raisers donations to charities interest on the loans to finance new equipment purchases taxes on the shop time spent doing bookkeeping for federal state and local governments time and effort spent to insure epa compliance and on and on and on ad nauseum all of this is part of the costs of doing business and some of them just to make the owner look good gary and should be dealt with by better money management and efficient use of time and materials. charging the customer a high price for something that they have to do anyway on top of the cost of the repair is just a rip-off. now im not talking about when the problem is a mystery and requires real time effort and skill to discover what it is. what im talking about is when they hook up some code reader and take a guess at the problem or open the hood and see the obvious leaking water pump and then charge $60.00 for the diagnosis regardless of whether they are right or wrong. they see only the act of plugging a scan tool into a vehicle pushing a few buttons and reading a code. never mind that the first time one of this model/year/make came in it was a half-day struggle to even get the scan tool to communicate because the vehicle maker and the scan tool provider are not exactly on friendly terms information-exchange-wise and the customer should have to pay for problems you are having with your venders why hell to this day im waiting for a call back from otc on why my otc-4000e will not read transmission data on full-size 97 gm trucks well get back to you in a week or so said the otc national service manage on sept 12 2000 in las vegas then perhaps you should get the word out and look for an equipment vender that has better customer support. so let em rant and rave and go on with their its cheaper to replace it nothing you or i will say can convince them that a fee for diagnosis is a bargain........................ it is only a bargain if it actually saves the customer money. the only ones that seems to be getting the bargain here are the shops. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : gary glaenzer

robin sadly your explanation still isnt clear but let me suggest you check at the fuse block for the fuse that controls the i/p lights. you should be able to tap off this fuse to get the dimmed lighting that you want. mike first of all you should not be checking for continuity like this you should be checking for voltage. if you want to check for continuity ground one of meters leads and with the bulb removed and the lights off check each wire for continuity. does the ash tray light dim with your instrument lights does the light that illuminates your power window switch have one or two wires do you want the light in the pw switch to dim with the other lights if you can answer these questions then we can help you. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving i just put some power windows in a 2001 ram 1500 plain jane. i wanted to illuminate the switch when i turned on the lights. i thought no problem. so i went to the ash tray light. thats where i was gonna get the power from. it had two wires going to it. one was kinda brown the other was black with orange. i didnt know which was the hot so i hooked the ground of the meter to one wire and the hot from the meter to a fuse. it showed continuity. so then i hooked the ground of the meter to the other wire of the ash tray light and the hot of the meter to a fuse. i also got continuity. what gives why would both wires show a reading can anyone help o.k. lets start again and no verbal insults. im just looking for a place to get power for the illuminated lights of the power windows and the ashtray light looked like the easiest place execept for the wires going to it being to short.. i do know a little about wiring from older cars but these newer models it looks like if you breath wrong you screw up the computer. the ash tray light had two wires going to it and didnt even look like it was a bulb because you couldnt do anything with it except turn it upside down.. anyway to get away with trying to take the so called bulb out i guess the best thing for me to do is just cut the bulb out then check for power to the wires then resplice everything back together later. . 222 274661 jvvhb.692554$fm2.597407@attbis04 tom lawrence wrote the throttle position sensor i believe is easy to replace. i have not had to do so myself though. i believe it runs about $150 at the dealer. $43 list price - can be had for about $30 if you have a nice dealer. takes all of 5 minutes to replace. youll need a torx screwdriver t-15 maybe when my tps went out on my 2000 ram the dealer had stated it was about $150+parts but they replaced it under warranty so i never saw the actual price. at that price its easier to replace it yourself rather than take it to the dealer where you often pay around $75 for diagnoses + parts + labor. would it be a bad idea to have the dealer or independent shop diagnose the problem and then you could put the part on yourself if it wasnt too difficult seems like guessing without diagnosing would get very expensive quickly. yes it does but some folks have this thing about allowing a qualified person to diagnose a problem they have this fixation on the amount charged for the diagnosis believing that paying 30 to 60 bucks for what they peceive as a tiny amount of work as a rip off if it is a tiny amount of work then it is a rip-off. perceive as a tiny amount of work jesus will you learn to read they fail to take into account the investment in service manuals scan tools updates for scan tools new cables for scan tools time spent on the phone with tech services time spent sitting in a classroom learning more about modern day systems the inevitable unbillable hours spent on the first time this problem came thru the door phone bill power bill internet service bill computer to give internet access to information services computer upgrades insurance on the premises insurance on tools advertising promotions give-aways to service organizations for their fund-raisers donations to charities interest on the loans to finance new equipment purchases taxes on the shop time spent doing bookkeeping for federal state and local governments time and effort spent to insure epa compliance and on and on and on ad nauseum all of this is part of the costs of doing business and some of them just to make the owner look good gary and should be dealt with by better money management and efficient use of time and materials. charging the customer a high price for something that they have to do anyway on top of the cost of the repair is just a rip-off. now im not talking about when the problem is a mystery and requires real time effort and skill to discover what it is. where did i ever say that the charge for diagnosis was in additi