ping: Nate .. old baja pics

From : mac davis

Q: hey nate.. i found this page.... these are from when the house was going up.. ill post some current ones or i can email them to ya.. http//www.davisbaja.com/sept-baja.htm mac please remove splinters before emailing .

Replies:

From : tbone

what kind of mileage are you guys that have a wrangler seeing im considering selling the f350 since i am no longer living in the country and no longer have a call for it. im thinking of replacing it with a 4cyl or 4.0l 6 cyl wrangler depending on mileage reports. -- chris i can give the mileage on a 81 cj7 if that would help.g roy .

From : roy

hey nate.. i found this page.... these are from when the house was going up.. ill post some current ones or i can email them to ya.. http//www.davisbaja.com/sept-baja.htm mac please remove splinters before emailing bro please post them here so we can all see them. roy .

From : nosey

bro please post them here so we can all see them. roy i cant.. my new server strips them.. if i get them on a page ill post the link here.. fighting a damn cold now.. *hack* messages with binary attachments dont get passed through many servers on the inbound side either. you can post them at www.tinypic.com for free. -- ken .

From : miles

nathan w. collier wrote isnt the mexican government more blatent about letting you buy your way out of anything thats an old myth. doesnt happen very often just as in the usa. it was more common 20-30 years ago but not so much today. attempting to bribe a law official will more often than not get you into far more trouble. .

From : miles

nathan w. collier wrote in mexico where the typical worker makes $5 a day why do so many americans have a complete lack of knowledge of mexico yet make statements like that it is true that mexicos minimum wage is about that but per the mexican social security institute the average is 4 to 5 times as much. plus their money goes much further than it does here. .

From : miles

mac davis wrote corrupt government oh you meant the u.s... i get it now.. thats true. for all the problems people state about the mexican gov. they seem to ignore very similar problems in the usa. .

From : bob m

roy wrote hey nate.. i found this page.... these are from when the house was going up.. ill post some current ones or i can email them to ya.. http//www.davisbaja.com/sept-baja.htm mac please remove splinters before emailing bro please post them here so we can all see them. roy yea. what he said. bob .

From : mac davis

on sun 17 feb 2008 174215 -0700 nathan w. collier no@way.com wrote i never got them. message was empty. hmm... your server must have stripped them... did you get the link for the old ones http//www.davisbaja.com/sept-baja.htm mac please remove splinters before emailing .

From : nathan w collier

http//www.davisbaja.com/sept-baja.htm thats pretty dang neat mac! im surprised though at the cost. 150k is what i would expect to pay in this country. in mexico where the typical worker makes $5 a day how do the locals afford to live if a nice hosue like that is 150k how are you received in general are you disliked for being able to afford such a house for example so many californians are selling their homes and moving to montana bringing the millions of dollars that they got for selling their homes in california that the property values here are getting so outrageous that its getting difficult for the lower and lower-middle class to afford a decent home. this amongst other political reasons is why the natives tend to dislike californians im not saying it is justified or not im just saying how it is. do you run into the same thing there i look foward to more pics its really neat what you have done. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p99sw99.com http//ppstalk.com http//p7talk.com .

From : nathan w collier

nathan w. collier wrote in mexico where the typical worker makes $5 a day why do so many americans have a complete lack of knowledge of mexico yet make statements like that that statement was based on comments from someone actually living and working there. are you claiming greater knowledge than one who lives and works there every day -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p99sw99.com http//ppstalk.com http//p7talk.com .

From : mac davis

on sun 17 feb 2008 112653 -0500 roy roy@fhome.net wrote hey nate.. i found this page.... these are from when the house was going up.. ill post some current ones or i can email them to ya.. http//www.davisbaja.com/sept-baja.htm mac please remove splinters before emailing bro please post them here so we can all see them. roy i cant.. my new server strips them.. if i get them on a page ill post the link here.. fighting a damn cold now.. *hack* mac please remove splinters before emailing .

From : mac davis

on sun 17 feb 2008 104039 -0700 nathan w. collier no@way.com wrote http//www.davisbaja.com/sept-baja.htm thats pretty dang neat mac! im surprised though at the cost. 150k is what i would expect to pay in this country. i can sure tell that you dont live in california nate... lol we refinanced our old run down house in ca for $320k to build this one.. we were in whats a starter area in fresno... anywhere near a big city and it would of been twice that cost.. in mexico where the typical worker makes $5 a day how do the locals afford to live if a nice hosue like that is 150k most of them cant or dont want to... the builders and business folks could if they wanted to but to the average worker it would be like an almost rich persons house.. some of the houses in town are little more than shacks with dish and ac and some are far nicer than ours.. how are you received in general are you disliked for being able to afford such a house as ive told my friends here for 2 years i havent met a local yet that i didnt like.. and that i sure cant say that for the gringos here.. in general i think the locals are a mixture of curious and grateful of the income.. maybe a bit envious but i dont pick up on that much... the trickle-down theory works here.. were building houses so the builders are busy and hiring the trades are all doing well the trucking industry is booming and pushing for better roads etc.. most of the local stores and restaurants have been doing well enough to remodel and direct marketing for the gringo customer... a lot of folks are doing very well with us here and seem to enjoy absorbing us and our bucks into the community.. for example so many californians are selling their homes and moving to montana bringing the millions of dollars that they got for selling their homes in california that the property values here are getting so outrageous that its getting difficult for the lower and lower-middle class to afford a decent home. this amongst other political reasons is why the natives tend to dislike californians im not saying it is justified or not im just saying how it is. do you run into the same thing there i saw a lot more of that in urban areas of ca than i do here... folks would sell their homes in the san francisco area for a few million and come buy homes in our area for cash usually at over market prices.. i think its sort of different here because were driving the gringo home prices up very fast but not really effecting the price of the local home except that the demand on material has really made those costs go up... then again id guess than the average wage in the area has more than triples in the last 5 years.. i look foward to more pics its really neat what you have done. thanks we love it here... ive got a freaking cold.. bout the 3rd one this winter and still sitting in the sun looking at the water.. one downside of being in a place like this is that between folks going to visit family and family visiting here we always seem to have some kind of bug going around... must be all the huggin and hand shakin they do here..lol mac please remove splinters before emailing .

From : mac davis

on sun 17 feb 2008 165432 -0500 nosey kfrei43@removethis.hotmail.com wrote bro please post them here so we can all see them. roy i cant.. my new server strips them.. if i get them on a page ill post the link here.. fighting a damn cold now.. *hack* messages with binary attachments dont get passed through many servers on the inbound side either. you can post them at www.tinypic.com for free. ill throw a bunch on one of the web pages when i feel better.. mac please remove splinters before emailing .

From : miles

nathan w. collier wrote that statement was based on comments from someone actually living and working there. are you claiming greater knowledge than one who lives and works there every day possibly yes. i do not know whom you are referring to. i have traveled mexico extensively have relatives born and raised in mexico and my folks currently live in mexico. so yes your statement is wrong and mexicos imss office that tracks such figures also disagrees. .

From : nosey

i hope you feel better soon. i was sick as a dog on wednesday. i laid on the couch for about 18 hours with a fever. i only got up for bathroom breaks and my head hurt so bad i could hardly keep my balance. im still feeling some of it today but im medicating with copious amounts of a fermented malted barley and hops remedy. it doesnt do much for balance but it eases the pain some. -- ken .

From : nathan w collier

possibly yes. i do not know whom you are referring to. i have traveled mexico extensively have relatives born and raised in mexico and my folks currently live in mexico. so yes your statement is wrong and mexicos imss office that tracks such figures also disagrees. what some website has to say is to me irrelevant. i base both my statement and belief on those who live there and work there. earlier i posted a link to my friend/employee oscar. he is one of my sources. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p99sw99.com http//ppstalk.com http//p7talk.com .

From : mac davis

on sun 17 feb 2008 181417 -0500 nosey kfrei43@removethis.hotmail.com wrote i hope you feel better soon. i was sick as a dog on wednesday. i laid on the couch for about 18 hours with a fever. i only got up for bathroom breaks and my head hurt so bad i could hardly keep my balance. im still feeling some of it today but im medicating with copious amounts of a fermented malted barley and hops remedy. it doesnt do much for balance but it eases the pain some. thanks... i dont get sick very often so it kind of pisses me off when i am.. ive been at half speed or less for a week and really down for 2 days... i ducked the last 3 or 4 bugs but this one caught me good... i hate not being able to work in the shop..grrrr.. mac please remove splinters before emailing .

From : miles

tbone wrote your point is complete crap. even $20 dollars a day is nothing compared to even minimum wage here in the us. like i said and you wonder why they flood our borders. nah i wonder how people like yourself can argue about a country they have zero comprehension of and have never even been there. if conditions are as good as you say there simply would not be the number of people trying to get here from there. how many people do not come here what part of mexicos society is coming here you have no clue to either answer. .

From : mac davis

on mon 18 feb 2008 143235 -0500 tbone noway@nothere.com wrote i do like that roof. it looks like a nice place to hang out in the evenings and in the morning before the sun cranks up with some interesting views. its sort of a myth t... everyone thinks that theyre going to spend lots of time on the roof maybe even sleep there some hot nights.. we even had the main part tiled and plumbed for a hot tub.. the reality is you go up once in a while if its not too hot or too windy but most company wants to be on the courtyard or inside.. our neighbor has a bbq tables bar & stools and just about everything else up on his.. i think he used the roof a lot at first but hardly ever does now.. mac please remove splinters before emailing .

From : mac davis

on mon 18 feb 2008 170815 -0700 nathan w. collier no@way.com wrote not sure what you mean by type of housing like ranch house victorian house etc. if i wanted to build a house just like yours i wouldnt know what to begin to ask for. we really didnt either... we spent an afternoon with the builder looking at homes that he was working on or had recently finished with him asking like/dislike questions.. the next day we met at his office and talked about size price etc.. he emailed ideas until we liked one.. most have web pages with sample houses and floor plans too.. mac please remove splinters before emailing .

From : mac davis

on mon 18 feb 2008 140617 -0500 tbone noway@nothere.com wrote i think that you also need to consider the cost of living there mac. people are not going to work for less than they need to survive at least not for long. if the cost of living is high as it is in ca then they will make more because the employers simply will not be able to get workers for less. now the illegals will work for less than many of the legals and just about any american but they still need to make enough to survive. they are also used to much lower standards of living than most americans so having 6 or more workers sharing a 1 bedroom apartment is no big deal for them as they have electricity running water an indoor bathroom heat and ac and some securitry. the extra money can be sent back home to their families. very true.. i saw a lot of really packed housing in the fresno & madera areas of ca... a big difference there is that these were seasonal workers following crops from mexico ca az and so on as crops were ready to pick.. otoh very few people crossing the borders illegally are very highly skilled.. the demand for skilled labor especially high tech is very strong in the ensenada and tj areas and building skills are in demand in most of baja.. some of the larger condo complexes going up in my area have had to import a lot of the labor from the states.. mac please remove splinters before emailing .

From : roy

on sun 17 feb 2008 112653 -0500 roy roy@fhome.net wrote hey nate.. i found this page.... these are from when the house was going up.. ill post some current ones or i can email them to ya.. http//www.davisbaja.com/sept-baja.htm mac please remove splinters before emailing bro please post them here so we can all see them. roy i cant.. my new server strips them.. no i got them on your first attempt. roy .

From : roy

on sun 17 feb 2008 181417 -0500 nosey kfrei43@removethis.hotmail.com wrote i hope you feel better soon. i was sick as a dog on wednesday. i laid on the couch for about 18 hours with a fever. i only got up for bathroom breaks and my head hurt so bad i could hardly keep my balance. im still feeling some of it today but im medicating with copious amounts of a fermented malted barley and hops remedy. it doesnt do much for balance but it eases the pain some. thanks... i dont get sick very often so it kind of pisses me off when i am.. ive been at half speed or less for a week and really down for 2 days... i ducked the last 3 or 4 bugs but this one caught me good... i hate not being able to work in the shop..grrrr.. mega dose the vitamin c bro. roy mac please remove splinters before emailing .

From : nathan w collier

i never got them. message was empty. -- nathan in montana http//bighorntactical.com http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p99sw99.com http//ppstalk.com http//p7talk.com on sun 17 feb 2008 112653 -0500 roy roy@fhome.net wrote hey nate.. i found this page.... these are from when the house was going up.. ill post some current ones or i can email them to ya.. http//www.davisbaja.com/sept-baja.htm mac please remove splinters before emailing bro please post them here so we can all see them. roy i cant.. my new server strips them.. no i got them on your first attempt. roy .

From : tbone

you are wasting your time nate. miles knows everything about everything and has family who lives everywhere and does everything. funny how he described mexico as a third world nation and then says everyone there is living well and the poverty level is slim lol. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving possibly yes. i do not know whom you are referring to. i have traveled mexico extensively have relatives born and raised in mexico and my folks currently live in mexico. so yes your statement is wrong and mexicos imss office that tracks such figures also disagrees. what some website has to say is to me irrelevant. i base both my statement and belief on those who live there and work there. earlier i posted a link to my friend/employee oscar. he is one of my sources. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p99sw99.com http//ppstalk.com http//p7talk.com .

From : mac davis

on sun 17 feb 2008 192815 -0500 roy roy@fhome.net wrote on sun 17 feb 2008 181417 -0500 nosey kfrei43@removethis.hotmail.com wrote i hope you feel better soon. i was sick as a dog on wednesday. i laid on the couch for about 18 hours with a fever. i only got up for bathroom breaks and my head hurt so bad i could hardly keep my balance. im still feeling some of it today but im medicating with copious amounts of a fermented malted barley and hops remedy. it doesnt do much for balance but it eases the pain some. thanks... i dont get sick very often so it kind of pisses me off when i am.. ive been at half speed or less for a week and really down for 2 days... i ducked the last 3 or 4 bugs but this one caught me good... i hate not being able to work in the shop..grrrr.. mega dose the vitamin c bro. roy shes got me on vitamins antibiotics decongestants antihistamines fresh fruit.. hell im not sure what else.. mac please remove splinters before emailing .

From : mac davis

on sun 17 feb 2008 192709 -0500 roy roy@fhome.net wrote on sun 17 feb 2008 112653 -0500 roy roy@fhome.net wrote hey nate.. i found this page.... these are from when the house was going up.. ill post some current ones or i can email them to ya.. http//www.davisbaja.com/sept-baja.htm mac please remove splinters before emailing bro please post them here so we can all see them. roy i cant.. my new server strips them.. no i got them on your first attempt. roy they must have changed obviously... when i tried a few weeks ago it told me that the files were refused! mac please remove splinters before emailing .

From : tbone

nathan w. collier wrote in mexico where the typical worker makes $5 a day why do so many americans have a complete lack of knowledge of mexico yet make statements like that it is true that mexicos minimum wage is about that but per the mexican social security institute the average is 4 to 5 times as much. plus their money goes much further than it does here. so you are saying that the average mexican is making 15 to 20 dollars a day -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : milesmiles

tbone wrote actually miles he said $5 a day not per hour. youre correct. my typo. but point still stands. mexicans on average are paid many times over $5/day. if conditions are as good as you say there simply would not be the number of people trying to get here from there. you have no comprehension of what part of the mexican society is coming here. none at all. it is not an overall mix of people. they are much of the part that mexico does not want and why the mexican gov. encourages them to come to the usa. we get their problems that they do not want. .

From : tbone

nathan w. collier wrote what some website has to say is to me irrelevant. i base both my statement and belief on those who live there and work there. earlier i posted a link to my friend/employee oscar. he is one of my sources. imss is a mexican gov. office that reports economic conditions. they are not some website. as i said i do have family there and know the economy well. the average wage in mexico is not $5/hr and not even close. it is not a dirt poor country as so many americans who have never been there believe. actually miles he said $5 a day not per hour. i will agree with you that the mexican economy has improved much in the past years but much like here most of the money goes to the few and the rest have to scrape to get by. if conditions are as good as you say there simply would not be the number of people trying to get here from there. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : mac davis

on mon 18 feb 2008 170732 -0700 nathan w. collier no@way.com wrote corrupt government oh you meant the u.s... i get it now.. isnt the mexican government more blatent about letting you buy your way out of anything i dont know the extent of their involvement in sending mexican troops into the us to smuggle drugs engaging our border patrol in the process but theyve done nothing to acknowledge the problem and seemingly nothing to end it. only in the movies nate as far as weve seen... everyone told us that we should carry a lot of cash in several different places so we could pay bribes all the time... not.. you wouldnt believe the hoops that we had to jump through to move here not pay full tariff on our stuff and such... also were not allowed to work unless we can prove that the job doesnt cause a national to lose job or chance of one.. we pass through a military checkpoint whenever we head to the border or back.. those kids with m-16s sure look serious when they search the cars.. mac please remove splinters before emailing .

From : tbone

mac davis wrote corrupt government oh you meant the u.s... i get it now.. thats true. for all the problems people state about the mexican gov. they seem to ignore very similar problems in the usa. oh really miles then how do you explain the last and upcomming elections -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

tbone wrote oh really go look it up and post the definition. developing nation. has nothing to do with being poor and everything to do with the style of social political and economic cultures. lol not by definition and with what you say the current minimum wage is and even what many are making the definition is correct andf you are wrong imagine that. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

tbone wrote so you are saying that the average mexican is making 15 to 20 dollars a day that is the average and not the median income. housing costs about 90% less than in the usa except in areas close to our borders. theres also considerable free housing available in many cities especially southern mexico. lol if i were to eliminate your housing costs could you live on 15 to 20 dollars a day. even if the median income were double that and i doubt that could you feed and cloth a family of 8 for that i used that number because you made that claim about 6 kids with the new truck. how about a more realistic family of 4 as for that free housing i doubt that it is very livable or there would be no reason for so many mexicans to try and come here. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

tbone wrote actually miles he said $5 a day not per hour. youre correct. my typo. but point still stands. mexicans on average are paid many times over $5/day. your point is complete crap. even $20 dollars a day is nothing compared to even minimum wage here in the us. like i said and you wonder why they flood our borders. if conditions are as good as you say there simply would not be the number of people trying to get here from there. you have no comprehension of what part of the mexican society is coming here. none at all. it is not an overall mix of people. they are much of the part that mexico does not want and why the mexican gov. encourages them to come to the usa. we get their problems that they do not want. more crap that you cannot possibly back up. many of the mexicans that i know and deal with are very hard working people. sure we get some of the scum comming across as well but that doesnt make it the majority. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : mac davis

on sun 17 feb 2008 210136 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote nathan w. collier wrote what some website has to say is to me irrelevant. i base both my statement and belief on those who live there and work there. earlier i posted a link to my friend/employee oscar. he is one of my sources. imss is a mexican gov. office that reports economic conditions. they are not some website. as i said i do have family there and know the economy well. the average wage in mexico is not $5/hr and not even close. it is not a dirt poor country as so many americans who have never been there believe. $5 an hour would be pretty good money for a lot of jobs here miles... the min. wage is about $5 a day but most folks as in the states make more than that.. most builders now are paying about $120 a week 5 1/2 days for labor up to $200 if its skilled labor like windows doors tile etc.. id say the building trades and retailers are at the top of the food chain right now.. mac please remove splinters before emailing .

From : mac davis

on mon 18 feb 2008 111022 -0500 tbone noway@nothere.com wrote tbone wrote actually miles he said $5 a day not per hour. youre correct. my typo. but point still stands. mexicans on average are paid many times over $5/day. your point is complete crap. even $20 dollars a day is nothing compared to even minimum wage here in the us. like i said and you wonder why they flood our borders. you have to consider cost of living t... say a guy is making $65 a day in ca as opposed to $20 a day in mexico... he could rent a 1 bedroom apt. here for about $150 a month... i just dont see that happening in ca... food and clothing are probably about the same if he lived in a cheap area of ca.. of course with no green card and probably not speaking any english hes not going to have a prayer in hell of making min. wage in the states.. mac please remove splinters before emailing .

From : nathan w collier

http//www.davisbaja.com/sept-baja.htm i did. thats really neat. what is that type of housing called and how is it constructed -- nathan in montana http//bighorntactical.com http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p99sw99.com http//ppstalk.com http//p7talk.com .

From : miles

tbone wrote lol if i were to eliminate your housing costs could you live on 15 to 20 dollars a day. thats the average not median income. again people in mexico have vastly different priorities. they live quite well. now quit trying to argue about a country you have never even been too. even if the median income were double that and i doubt that take a look. mexico is ranked between australia and poland. hardly dirt poor countries. http//www.nationmaster.com/graph/ecopopbelmedincpergdp-below-median-income-per-gdp .

From : tbone

on mon 18 feb 2008 110713 -0700 nathan w. collier no@way.com wrote http//www.davisbaja.com/sept-baja.htm i did. thats really neat. what is that type of housing called and how is it constructed not sure what you mean by type of housing if you mean the style id guess something like southwest but i really dont know.. they just ask that it have a mexican flow to it.. we pretty much told the builder that we wanted 2 bedrooms and baths a shop and as few walls as possible.. his 2nd floorplan was right on and we told him to go for it.. the great room is about 30 feet long with no walls dividing what would be kitchen/living/dining rooms in the states.. lots of open space and windows lots of french doors front and back verandas etc.. the foundation is concrete slab poured on packed red dirt... the exterior walls are stuff made up of cement and styrofoam known as durawall performa wall and newdura... sort of like building out of block except the material is much lighter and better insulating.. also it comes in a lot longer strips so it foes up faster.. the roof is cement poured over a form braced on concrete beams on 24 centers.. i cant remember if its 4 6 or 8 thick.. the inside ceilings are 6 of foam which is plastered and painted.. the windows and patio doors are double pane and tinted.. thats about all i can remember nate.. i do like that roof. it looks like a nice place to hang out in the evenings and in the morning before the sun cranks up with some interesting views. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : mac davis

on mon 18 feb 2008 214640 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote tbone wrote your point is complete crap. even $20 dollars a day is nothing compared to even minimum wage here in the us. like i said and you wonder why they flood our borders. nah i wonder how people like yourself can argue about a country they have zero comprehension of and have never even been there. if conditions are as good as you say there simply would not be the number of people trying to get here from there. how many people do not come here what part of mexicos society is coming here you have no clue to either answer. also miles as ive mentioned a few times what skill level people are going to the states mac please remove splinters before emailing .

From : mac davis

on mon 18 feb 2008 221231 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote nathan w. collier wrote coming from one quoting mexican government statistics thats laughable miles. iow;s your a typical person that assumes mexico is dirt poor with a highly corrupt non-functional gov. all based on anything but fact. the usas gov. is corrupt in much the same manner. actually... i agree with him miles.. believing shit that the mexican or united states governments tell you is like believing in the easter bunny... sorry denny mac please remove splinters before emailing .

From : tbone

on mon 18 feb 2008 111022 -0500 tbone noway@nothere.com wrote tbone wrote actually miles he said $5 a day not per hour. youre correct. my typo. but point still stands. mexicans on average are paid many times over $5/day. your point is complete crap. even $20 dollars a day is nothing compared to even minimum wage here in the us. like i said and you wonder why they flood our borders. you have to consider cost of living t... say a guy is making $65 a day in ca as opposed to $20 a day in mexico... he could rent a 1 bedroom apt. here for about $150 a month... i just dont see that happening in ca... i think that you also need to consider the cost of living there mac. people are not going to work for less than they need to survive at least not for long. if the cost of living is high as it is in ca then they will make more because the employers simply will not be able to get workers for less. now the illegals will work for less than many of the legals and just about any american but they still need to make enough to survive. they are also used to much lower standards of living than most americans so having 6 or more workers sharing a 1 bedroom apartment is no big deal for them as they have electricity running water an indoor bathroom heat and ac and some securitry. the extra money can be sent back home to their families. food and clothing are probably about the same if he lived in a cheap area of ca.. and the rent would also be much lower if he lived in a low income area. im not going to get into a big argument with you on this or claim to have more knowledge on the subject as unlike you i dont live there. but by listening to you i can say that many dont have the highest standard of living for whatever reason and they are comming here and in large numbers and giving up their home for a reason. of course with no green card and probably not speaking any english hes not going to have a prayer in hell of making min. wage in the states.. thats not really true either. employers are going to pay what they must to get the workers to work. as miles said many of the illegals in az have driven the price of day labor to $15 an hour amd more. that is more than a little bit above minimum wage. even illegals are not going to work for less than they need to survive. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : nathan w collier

not sure what you mean by type of housing like ranch house victorian house etc. if i wanted to build a house just like yours i wouldnt know what to begin to ask for. -- nathan in montana http//bighorntactical.com http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p99sw99.com http//ppstalk.com http//p7talk.com .

From : miles

tbone wrote lol not by definition and with what you say the current minimum wage is and even what many are making the definition is correct andf you are wrong imagine that. you still trying to argue about a country you have never been too have no family there and know zilch about ya thats your style. .

From : miles

nathan w. collier wrote imss is a mexican gov. this is laughable miles. you consider the mexican government credible generally speaking yes it is. for any problem in mexicos gov. its not too difficult to find the same thing in the usa. .

From : miles

nathan w. collier wrote coming from one quoting mexican government statistics thats laughable miles. iow;s your a typical person that assumes mexico is dirt poor with a highly corrupt non-functional gov. all based on anything but fact. the usas gov. is corrupt in much the same manner. .

From : tbone

on mon 18 feb 2008 143235 -0500 tbone noway@nothere.com wrote i do like that roof. it looks like a nice place to hang out in the evenings and in the morning before the sun cranks up with some interesting views. its sort of a myth t... everyone thinks that theyre going to spend lots of time on the roof maybe even sleep there some hot nights.. we even had the main part tiled and plumbed for a hot tub.. the reality is you go up once in a while if its not too hot or too windy but most company wants to be on the courtyard or inside.. our neighbor has a bbq tables bar & stools and just about everything else up on his.. i think he used the roof a lot at first but hardly ever does now.. thats too bad. it looks like from the pictures like a nice place to hang out. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

on mon 18 feb 2008 140617 -0500 tbone noway@nothere.com wrote i think that you also need to consider the cost of living there mac. people are not going to work for less than they need to survive at least not for long. if the cost of living is high as it is in ca then they will make more because the employers simply will not be able to get workers for less. now the illegals will work for less than many of the legals and just about any american but they still need to make enough to survive. they are also used to much lower standards of living than most americans so having 6 or more workers sharing a 1 bedroom apartment is no big deal for them as they have electricity running water an indoor bathroom heat and ac and some securitry. the extra money can be sent back home to their families. very true.. i saw a lot of really packed housing in the fresno & madera areas of ca... a big difference there is that these were seasonal workers following crops from mexico ca az and so on as crops were ready to pick.. otoh very few people crossing the borders illegally are very highly skilled.. the demand for skilled labor especially high tech is very strong in the ensenada and tj areas and building skills are in demand in most of baja.. some of the larger condo complexes going up in my area have had to import a lot of the labor from the states.. thats kinda funny as many of the builders here in nc at least my area are mexican and many dont speak much if any english. now i dont know if they are all illegals or not but i bet some of them are as it sorta looks like they live in that van they drive to the sites. then again their work is far from the best that i have seen but they are paid by the job not the hour so the more work that they do.... i guess that many will always go where the money is. now that the building in shis state is rapidly comming to a halt as it is in many other areas of the country you may get some of them back. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

tbone wrote lol not by definition and with what you say the current minimum wage is and even what many are making the definition is correct andf you are wrong imagine that. you still trying to argue about a country you have never been too have no family there and know zilch about ya thats your style. just because you lived there doesnt make you an expert as you are more than proving here. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

tbone wrote lol if i were to eliminate your housing costs could you live on 15 to 20 dollars a day. thats the average not median income. again people in mexico have vastly different priorities. they live quite well. now quit trying to argue about a country you have never even been too. even if the median income were double that and i doubt that take a look. mexico is ranked between australia and poland. hardly dirt poor countries. http//www.nationmaster.com/graph/ecopopbelmedincpergdp-below-median-income-per-gdp did you actually bother to click on the link and read it or are you just trying to make it easier for me there population below the poverty level is 40%. since you seem to be stuck in moron mode that means that almost half of the population doesnt make enough to really survive. this is what makes up your cultural differences and why so many try and come here legally or otherwise. even from the link that you sent me calderon has stated that his top priorities include reducing poverty and creating jobs it also mentions the need to upgrade infrastructure and modernize labor laws. sorry miles but while mexico has come a long way and continues to improve they still have a lot of issues and a lot of poor that simply cannot find work and not all of it is unskilled labor. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

tbone wrote your point is complete crap. even $20 dollars a day is nothing compared to even minimum wage here in the us. like i said and you wonder why they flood our borders. nah i wonder how people like yourself can argue about a country they have zero comprehension of and have never even been there. give it up miles. thats all that you can say because you have no valid argument. if conditions are as good as you say there simply would not be the number of people trying to get here from there. how many people do not come here what part of mexicos society is coming here you have no clue to either answer. and neither do you miles as there is no way to know. all you can do is assume and your assumptions are clouded by your bias just like everyone elses. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : mac davis

on tue 19 feb 2008 093124 -0500 tbone noway@nothere.com wrote on mon 18 feb 2008 140617 -0500 tbone noway@nothere.com wrote i think that you also need to consider the cost of living there mac. people are not going to work for less than they need to survive at least not for long. if the cost of living is high as it is in ca then they will make more because the employers simply will not be able to get workers for less. now the illegals will work for less than many of the legals and just about any american but they still need to make enough to survive. they are also used to much lower standards of living than most americans so having 6 or more workers sharing a 1 bedroom apartment is no big deal for them as they have electricity running water an indoor bathroom heat and ac and some securitry. the extra money can be sent back home to their families. very true.. i saw a lot of really packed housing in the fresno & madera areas of ca... a big difference there is that these were seasonal workers following crops from mexico ca az and so on as crops were ready to pick.. otoh very few people crossing the borders illegally are very highly skilled.. the demand for skilled labor especially high tech is very strong in the ensenada and tj areas and building skills are in demand in most of baja.. some of the larger condo complexes going up in my area have had to import a lot of the labor from the states.. thats kinda funny as many of the builders here in nc at least my area are mexican and many dont speak much if any english. now i dont know if they are all illegals or not but i bet some of them are as it sorta looks like they live in that van they drive to the sites. then again their work is far from the best that i have seen but they are paid by the job not the hour so the more work that they do.... i guess that many will always go where the money is. now that the building in shis state is rapidly comming to a halt as it is in many other areas of the country you may get some of them back. wow.. i cant even imagine being from mexico especially the baja and experiencing a nc winter... *shudder* mac please remove splinters before emailing .

From : mac davis

on tue 19 feb 2008 092303 -0500 tbone noway@nothere.com wrote our neighbor has a bbq tables bar & stools and just about everything else up on his.. i think he used the roof a lot at first but hardly ever does now.. thats too bad. it looks like from the pictures like a nice place to hang out. it is weather permitting... the first winter my wife thought that the roof was a perfect place for her exercise equipment.. only place really no room in the house she found out that between wind cold and motivation the roof was just a good place to store shit.. dont get me wrong it is a nice place to hang out sometimes but since everyone thinks that theyre going to practically live on the roof they make it nice.. then the next generation of folks see all the nice roofs and think that they have to have one.. we bought a queen-size air bed before we moved.. figured that it would be great for sleeping on the roof.. never been out of the friggin box.. lol mac please remove splinters before emailing .

From : nathan w collier

generally speaking yes it is. for any problem in mexicos gov. its not too difficult to find the same thing in the usa. if that works for you good. believe what you wish. on the one hand i have a mexican native former/future employee and in fact a very good friend telling me one thing and some guy on the internet who i dont know telling me that he found something on the internet that contradicts what my employee told me. i think i would consider his word more credible. ........nothing personal sir. -- nathan in montana http//bighorntactical.com http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p99sw99.com http//ppstalk.com http//p7talk.com .

From : nathan w collier

the usas gov. is corrupt in much the same manner. we could go back and forth all day about this and accomplish nothing....surely you can agree on that. -- nathan in montana http//bighorntactical.com http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p99sw99.com http//ppstalk.com http//p7talk.com .

From : miles

tbone wrote just because you lived there doesnt make you an expert as you are more than proving here. far more so than you who know zilch. .

From : miles

tbone wrote oh really miles then how do you explain the last and upcomming elections you mean mexicos elections where the liberal candidate lost and started a huge protest even worse than what the liberals in the usa did in fl when a liberal loses they never blame themselves to improve next time and gain votes. same in the usa or mexico. .

From : nathan w collier

the reality is you go up once in a while if its not too hot or too windy but most company wants to be on the courtyard or inside.. i like it because it looks like a very defensible position. - -- nathan in montana http//bighorntactical.com http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p99sw99.com http//ppstalk.com http//p7talk.com .

From : nathan w collier

wow.. i cant even imagine being from mexico especially the baja and experiencing a nc winter... *shudder* lol.....you should have seen my employee oscar coming from mexico city into a montana winter. i swear he moved in slow motion. - -- nathan in montana http//bighorntactical.com http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p99sw99.com http//ppstalk.com http//p7talk.com .

From : mac davis

on tue 19 feb 2008 125045 -0700 nathan w. collier no@way.com wrote the reality is you go up once in a while if its not too hot or too windy but most company wants to be on the courtyard or inside.. i like it because it looks like a very defensible position. - ill have to post a pic of the neighbors house.. we call it the alamo.. mac please remove splinters before emailing .

From : miles

mac davis wrote also miles as ive mentioned a few times what skill level people are going to the states mostly under and uneducated. mexico exports its poverty instead of dealing with it themselves. americans tend to believe mexico by and large is mostly living in poverty. that leads them to feel those that come here are a cross section of the mexican population. i find mexicans in mexico nicer harder working and more willing to give even when they are living in poverty. we invited a man selling crafts on the beach over to our trailer for a bbq. on a later trip he invited our entire family over to his house where his wife made us the best tamales ive ever had. just a fun experience meeting the locals there. always so friendly to us. .

From : miles

mac davis wrote actually... i agree with him miles.. believing shit that the mexican or united states governments tell you is like believing in the easter bunny... sorry denny exactly. my point was that for every example of how someone lost out due to corruption in the mexican gov. its pretty easy to find a similar example in the usa. the mexican gov. is not a hodge podge of organized criminal corruption. at least not much more than the usa. its come along ways from 3+ decades ago. however cities such as tijuana still have major problems. .

From : tbone

tbone wrote just because you lived there doesnt make you an expert as you are more than proving here. far more so than you who know zilch. say all that you want miles because all you are really managing to do is prove my points. 40% below the poverty level is even worse than jamaica and to see the way some of the people live over there is enough to make you cry. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

tbone wrote sorry miles but while mexico has come a long way and continues to improve they still have a lot of issues and a lot of poor that simply cannot find work and not all of it is unskilled labor. never said otherwise. i only stated that mexico is not a country where most people are dirt poor and starving. mexico exports its poverty to the usa as a way of solving the problem. those that come here are mostly under and uneducated. .

From : tbone

tbone wrote oh really miles then how do you explain the last and upcomming elections you mean mexicos elections where the liberal candidate lost and started a huge protest even worse than what the liberals in the usa did in fl when a liberal loses they never blame themselves to improve next time and gain votes. same in the usa or mexico. actually miles. i was talking about this country. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

tbone wrote say all that you want miles because all you are really managing to do is prove my points. 40% below the poverty level is even worse than jamaica and to see the way some of the people live over there is enough to make you cry. mexico ranks right next to australia for % of people living below the median income. that 40% is also based on the usas poverty level which doesnt apply to mexico to well. someone earning a wage at the usas poverty level would certainly not be poor in mexico. heck most people at the usas poverty level would be considered doing rather well in many other countries. jamaica huh hmm. another country youve never been too but know all about huh .

From : miles

tbone wrote actually miles. i was talking about this country. hatred and false promises from liberal politicians. they have not delivered what they campaigned to do. and sorry tbone its not because of reps that the dems have not delivered. they havent even tried. but they have tried to do even worse. if it werent for the reps our spending would be even higher than it is. the reps are horrible but the dems are not the answer. .

From : miles

nathan w. collier wrote if that works for you good. believe what you wish. on the one hand i have a mexican native former/future employee and in fact a very good friend telling me one thing and some guy on the internet who i dont know telling me that he found something on the internet huh nate i dont base anything on the internet. ive lived there and have family in mexico. i know what its like there. your beliefs are old worn out stereotypical myths not based on anything other than hearsay. its sad that so many in this country have a complete lack of understanding about our neighbors. .

From : nathan w collier

huh nate i dont base anything on the internet. you were quoting a mexican government website. that is something you found on the internet. i know what its like there. your beliefs are old worn out stereotypical myths not based on anything other than hearsay. ill let oscar know hes really not earning roughly $5 a day. ill let him know that hes not sharing a house with a dozen other people only way they can afford a house and ill let him know its because some guy on the internet told me its just a stereotypical myth. - ......ok actually hes not. i sent him money to float on until we can get him back up here. but he was before i sent the money. -- nathan in montana http//bighorntactical.com http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p99sw99.com http//ppstalk.com http//p7talk.com .

From : miles

nathan w. collier wrote huh nate i dont base anything on the internet. you were quoting a mexican government website. that is something you found on the internet. to tbone on an unrelated subject because he demands sites which i agree with you that theyre worthless. you can find anything you want on the internet to show anything you want. you replied about gov. corruption. its here in the usa as well but works a bit different. not as blatent. but the idea of trying to bribe your way out of a mess in mexico is myth. ill let oscar know hes really not earning roughly $5 a day. if he needs a better paying job let me know. i know where to send him to make far more. theres people here in the usa making didly squat. you base what all of mexico is like based on oscar know that hes not sharing a house with a dozen other people only way they can afford a house theres people in the usa doing the same thing. whats your point and ill let him know its because some guy on the internet told me its just a stereotypical myth. - theres poor people in the usa as well. should the usa be stereotyped in the same way as you are with mexico .

From : tbone

tbone wrote say all that you want miles because all you are really managing to do is prove my points. 40% below the poverty level is even worse than jamaica and to see the way some of the people live over there is enough to make you cry. mexico ranks right next to australia for % of people living below the median income. that is not true. perhaps you had better go back and really look at the site that you posted. iirc and im not going to even bother wasting the time to look the rating that you are refering to is gnp not the number of people living above or below the poverty line. the poverty level rating can be found by clicking on mexico in the main rating list and then clicking on the link where it shows the poverty level. a whole new list pops up showing the ranks of the different countries according to population below the poverty level and australia is nowhere near it but jamaica is right above it and everyone knows just how dirt poor that country is. that 40% is also based on the usas poverty level which doesnt apply to mexico to well. damn miles can you really be this stupid that would make it a meaningless number. sorry to burst you bubble miles but once again you are dead wrong. those numbers are based on the poverty level of the specific country not the us. someone earning a wage at the usas poverty level would certainly not be poor in mexico. that is correct so please explain the meaning of using the us poverty level as a basis point for other countries. you will not be able to because it makes no sense at all and would be completely meaningless. hell miles even in this country you cant even do that between states. do you really think that you can live at the same level for the same money in california as you can in montana. heck most people at the usas poverty level would be considered doing rather well in many other countries. again more proof that basing poverty level of other countries on american incomes as you said they did would be completely meaningless and that you really dont know wtf you are talking about. jamaica huh hmm. another country youve never been too but know all about huh actually miles. i have been there a few times. as you like to say i have or in this case had family over there. and like you said many of the locals are loving and caring people but many dont have a pot to piss in. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

nathan w. collier wrote huh nate i dont base anything on the internet. you were quoting a mexican government website. that is something you found on the internet. to tbone on an unrelated subject because he demands sites which i agree with you that theyre worthless. you can find anything you want on the internet to show anything you want. damn miles now you have to resort to lies. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

tbone wrote sorry miles but while mexico has come a long way and continues to improve they still have a lot of issues and a lot of poor that simply cannot find work and not all of it is unskilled labor. never said otherwise. yes you did. according to you most mexicans are doing quite well and simply choose to live the way that they do due to cultural differences. if this were in fact true they would not have the issues that they do and the number of them trying to get here would be much less. i only stated that mexico is not a country where most people are dirt poor and starving. most no but 40% is still damn high and if those figures were reported to that site by the mexican government then i suspect that number to be much higher than that. mexico exports its poverty to the usa as a way of solving the problem. lol another statement that you cannot possibly hope to back up. this is your opinion miles and nothing more. those that come here are mostly under and uneducated. i would say that the higher percentage are exactly that but why are there so many of them miles are you saying that mexicans are typically stupid or lazy is that part of the cultural differences that you keep talking about -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

tbone wrote that is not true. iirc and im not going to even bother wasting the time to look the rating that you are refering to is gnp not the number of people living above or below the poverty line. title of the chart on the 1st page reads population below median income. i said median tbone. those numbers are based on the poverty level of the specific country not the us. wrong. each country may or may not even have a poverty level they compute. its only meaningful if you have something to relate it to. whats considered poverty in the usa may not be poverty elsewhere. in the usa theres scores of people below the poverty level whom have cable tv and internet. different cultures tbone. something you just cant grasp. do you really think that you can live at the same level for the same money in california as you can in montana. exactly yet there is a federal poverty level used for determining things such as social services available even at the state level. as you like to say i have or in this case had family over there. sure ya do tbone! good grief! .

From : miles

tbone wrote yes you did. according to you most mexicans are doing quite well and simply choose to live the way that they do due to cultural differences. thats true. most mexicans are doing well per their needs and culture. theyre mostly happy have roof over their heads and food on the table. you seem to feel most are dirt poor and the countries run down and corrupt. most no but 40% is still damn high most of that 40% are not dirt poor starving etc. most in the usa below the poverty level are not dirt poor homeless starving etc. what does poverty mean to you tbone what does it mean to the federal gov. whom sets the $ amount to define it mexico exports its poverty to the usa as a way of solving the problem. lol another statement that you cannot possibly hope to back up. this is your opinion miles and nothing more. its your opinion that those coming to the usa represent a cross section of mexico rather than the poor under educated etc. i would say that the higher percentage are exactly that but why are there so many of them miles 11 million well thats just a guess could be higher could be lower who knows came here over a 40 year period. whats the population of mexico .

From : tbone

tbone wrote that is not true. iirc and im not going to even bother wasting the time to look the rating that you are refering to is gnp not the number of people living above or below the poverty line. title of the chart on the 1st page reads population below median income. i said median tbone. who cares miles. when you click on mexico it says that 40% are below the poverty level. those numbers are based on the poverty level of the specific country not the us. wrong. each country may or may not even have a poverty level they compute. its only meaningful if you have something to relate it to. are you really serious what a complete load of crap. poverty has a definition miles go and look it up. whats considered poverty in the usa may not be poverty elsewhere. once again you prove yourself to be an idiot. while it may be true that the same standard of living in one area may be considered substandard in another poverty is pretty much the same everywhere. when you cannot affors to feed your falily or provide for even basic needs then you are in the poverty class and yes there are levels of that as well. in the usa theres scores of people below the poverty level whom have cable tv and internet. different cultures tbone. something you just cant grasp. lol if they can afford cable tv and internet connections then they are either not poverty level or are just stupid much like yourself. do you really think that you can live at the same level for the same money in california as you can in montana. exactly yet there is a federal poverty level used for determining things such as social services available even at the state level. yes they can but it is not exactly the same for every state or even for every reigon in each state. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

tbone wrote s miles. when you click on mexico it says that 40% are below the poverty level. what poverty level is that exactly what does it mean in mexico how are these 40% living exactly what do they have in the way of housing food etc i know you have a belief of dirt poor with little to nothing maybe based on usa standards but thats all it is a belief. are you really serious what a complete load of crap. poverty has a definition miles go and look it up. the poverty level does not have an exact definition agreed to by every nation in the world in how they compute it. the poverty level the feds in the usa set does not mean dirt poor and homeless without food etc. poverty is pretty much the same everywhere. bull. in the usa people that earn the poverty level generally have a roof over their head food and a car. you just cant seem to handle that. when you cannot affors to feed your falily or provide for even basic needs then you are in the poverty class and yes there are levels of that as well. poverty class that has nothing to do with the federal poverty level in terms of $s. people in the usa at the poverty level arent necessarily dirt poor without basic needs etc. lol if they can afford cable tv and internet connections then they are either not poverty level then the federal gov.s poverty level figure must be wrong or more likely you are wrong! yes they can but it is not exactly the same for every state or even for every reigon in each state. the federal poverty level is the same for all states and used to determine social services available even at the state level. .

From : tbone

tbone wrote yes you did. according to you most mexicans are doing quite well and simply choose to live the way that they do due to cultural differences. thats true. most mexicans are doing well per their needs and culture. once again miles you make statements that you cant possibly hope to back up. even the links that you provide go against you. theyre mostly happy have roof over their heads and food on the table. how do you know did you interview the majority of the population you seem to feel most are dirt poor and the countries run down and corrupt. i never said any such thing but they do have a much lower standard of living than we do and a large population at the poverty level and lower. you seem to be happy with the delusion that they want it this way but the numbers of them crossing the border says something very different. most no but 40% is still damn high most of that 40% are not dirt poor starving etc. lol oh really! care to back that up. of course you dont because you cant. most in the usa below the poverty level are not dirt poor homeless starving etc. again lets see you back that up. sure there are some scum that scam the system and many are not homeless or starving because of social programs but they are still dirt poor and are in many cases trapped by the very system that they now depend on not to be starving or homeless. what does poverty mean to you tbone to me it means not having enough to meet even basic needs without being strapped down by some gubberment handouts and red tape. what does it mean to you miles what does it mean to the federal gov. whom sets the $ amount to define it probably the amount needed to just scrape by in the lowest cost area in the country. mexico exports its poverty to the usa as a way of solving the problem. lol another statement that you cannot possibly hope to back up. this is your opinion miles and nothing more. its your opinion that those coming to the usa represent a cross section of mexico rather than the poor under educated etc. i would say that it is much more likely to be closer to mine than yours but even if you are the one who is correct why are there so many of them and if mexico is such a booming place with free housing and health care why would they rick it all to come here and why so many of them. you deleted the question the last time i posted it. how about answering it if you know so much about the country as you claim. i would say that the higher percentage are exactly that but why are there so many of them miles 11 million well thats just a guess could be higher could be lower who knows came here over a 40 year period. whats the population of mexico once again more meaningless numbers. unless the flow has been the same every year for those 40 years what exactly is your point -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

tbone wrote s miles. when you click on mexico it says that 40% are below the poverty level. what poverty level is that exactly what does it mean in mexico since their standard of living is so much lower than ours i would say that their poverty level is also way lower than ours. how are these 40% living exactly what do they have in the way of housing food etc i know you have a belief of dirt poor with little to nothing maybe based on usa standards but thats all it is a belief. you make no sense at all miles. first you say that their culture is the reason that they live at such a lower standard of living than that common in the us then you say that there definition of poverty is higher than ours or that they dont have one. please list all of the countries that you can think of that actually have an economy even close to the size of mexicos and dont classify a poverty level. are you really serious what a complete load of crap. poverty has a definition miles go and look it up. the poverty level does not have an exact definition agreed to by every nation in the world in how they compute it. the poverty level the feds in the usa set does not mean dirt poor and homeless without food etc. it is based on the level below what is accepted as the common standard of living. since the common standard of living of many that you claim are fine and happy is way below that of ours it only makes sense that the level that they refer to as poverty is also much lower than what we start it at. sorry miles but all your cultural bullshit is comming back to bite you. poverty is pretty much the same everywhere. bull. in the usa people that earn the poverty level generally have a roof over their head food and a car. you just cant seem to handle that. how would you know miles do you have family that live that way as well or are you just referring to your employees. you are referring to the working poor and they are a step or two above true poverty. when you cannot affors to feed your falily or provide for even basic needs then you are in the poverty class and yes there are levels of that as well. poverty class that has nothing to do with the federal poverty level in terms of $s. people in the usa at the poverty level arent necessarily dirt poor without basic needs etc. you keep talking about the us why is that we are talking about mexico and if their normal standard of living is somewhat lower than that in the us the poverty level will be as well. lol if they can afford cable tv and internet connections then they are either not poverty level then the federal gov.s poverty level figure must be wrong or more likely you are wrong! its based on a dollar amount of wages that they are aware of and since our government always tries to make itself look better and take the easy way out yea they are probably wrong. if people are making money under the table to pay for these things or are living in government housing and eating from food stamps then they may be earning enough under the table or the housing might have a common cable connection and still be considered at a poverty level. does mexico have all of these social programs -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

tbone wrote i never said any such thing but they do have a much lower standard of living than we do never said otherwise. of course mexico has a lower standard of living. but that doesnt mean people arent happy. they dont need the things we take for granted here in order to be happy. were spoiled. to me it means not having enough to meet even basic needs the us poverty level is $21000 for a typical family. certainly not much $s but i know quite a number of families of 4 making about that and doing ok. they have an apartment car and food. theyre strapped and penny pinch on a daily basis but they do alright and are not dirt poor and starving and homeless nor are they on social handouts. mexico is such a booming place with free housing and health care why would they rick it all to come here and why so many of them. who said booming i never did. i simply stated that most in mexico are not dirt poor starving and homeless. most do just fine for their needs. .

From : miles

tbone wrote since their standard of living is so much lower than ours i would say that their poverty level is also way lower than ours. in comparison perhaps but their needs and priorities are vastly different than ours. people need far less in mexico in order to be happy. how would you know miles do you have family that live that way as well i spend several hours a day doing volunteer charity work for numerous families in just such a situation. so yes i most certainly do know. i would think you being the compassionate liberal would be doing even more and get to know the people youre guessing about. does mexico have all of these social programs theyre smarter than the usa and do not believe in oppression through social handouts that have never done anything to reduce poverty. yet they do have numerous social programs to help people to help themselves. .

From : tbone

tbone wrote i never said any such thing but they do have a much lower standard of living than we do never said otherwise. of course mexico has a lower standard of living. but that doesnt mean people arent happy. they dont need the things we take for granted here in order to be happy. were spoiled. what people need and what they want are to very different things miles. if people were just happy with what they need there would be no rich people and greed would not exist. just because they are used to living well below what we would consider poverty doesnt mean tha they want to stay that way. are you happy now miles are you still trying to grow your business to make more money why miles to me it means not having enough to meet even basic needs the us poverty level is $21000 for a typical family. certainly not much $s but i know quite a number of families of 4 making about that and doing ok. that depends on their ambition and where they live miles. sure there are areas where you can survive on that level of income but they are trapped there. so much for freedom. they have an apartment car and food. theyre strapped and penny pinch on a daily basis but they do alright and are not dirt poor and starving and homeless nor are they on social handouts. i dont think that they are overly happy about being 1 paycheck away from being on the street either. they may not have a bad attitiude and are trying to make the best out of the situation but i can bet that if an oppertunity would come up to double or even tripple their income they would jump on it in a heartbeat. just like the ones comming over here from mexico. mexico is such a booming place with free housing and health care why would they rick it all to come here and why so many of them. who said booming i never did. i simply stated that most in mexico are not dirt poor starving and homeless. most do just fine for their needs. yes you did miles. if most of the population is doing just fine for their needs then the economy is booming. that is not the case there or even here right now. your attitude is really why so many hate the rich as many of them have the same one. just because people may smile sometimes when they are just getting by doesnt mean that they are happy with their situation or dont want anything more. many of the people that you are talking about are not happy and are in fear of losing even the little bit that they do have and wonder if they can ever retire. this is not doing just fine and if the opportunity or even perceived opportunity to improve that situation appears many are going to jump on it. it is not just the uneducated and lazy that are floodong our borders it is the ambitious and the ones that want a better life and are willing to take the risk to achieve it as well and are probably the greater percentage now. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

tbone wrote since their standard of living is so much lower than ours i would say that their poverty level is also way lower than ours. in comparison perhaps but their needs and priorities are vastly different than ours. people need far less in mexico in order to be happy. how so miles as said before there is a huge difference between needs and wants and just because they may have gotten used to doing with very little doesnt mean that they dont want more. do you have any idea just how stupid you sound how would you know miles do you have family that live that way as well i spend several hours a day doing volunteer charity work for numerous families in just such a situation. so yes i most certainly do know. i would think you being the compassionate liberal would be doing even more and get to know the people youre guessing about. i do know them miles and unlike you i actually have friends in that situation. being that they are my friends i see first hand the problems that they have and the worries as well. by what you say miles it is more than clear the you really dont have a fucking clue. does mexico have all of these social programs theyre smarter than the usa and do not believe in oppression through social handouts that have never done anything to reduce poverty. yet they do have numerous social programs to help people to help themselves. really name them. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

tbone wrote actually miles. i was talking about this country. hatred and false promises from liberal politicians. lol sorry miles but the right are the kings of hatred. look what they did to this country now and what they did to clinton out of nothing but fear. this country was and to a degree still is a laughing stock to many other countries due to that. they have not delivered what they campaigned to do. and sorry tbone its not because of reps that the dems have not delivered. oh yea and the right always has lol! sorry miles but it very much has to do with the right and the idiot that we have for a president. they havent even tried. but they have tried to do even worse. if it werent for the reps our spending would be even higher than it is. the reps are horrible but the dems are not the answer. yea right. how exactly are they going to do anything without spending money i guess that you would rather do as our president does and just take the money away from those that need it the most like the billions he wants to take from medicare and medicade to fund his bogus war instead of raising taxes of those that can afford it the most. since most of them are republicans they like you should be more than willing to support the war your god started. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

tbone wrote just because they are used to living well below what we would consider poverty doesnt mean tha they want to stay that way. i see. so they need liberals like yourself to keep telling them how miserable they are. everyone strives for more. but they arent miserable. theyre generally happy. you seem to think everyone needs to live how we do in the usa or they cant possibly be happy. sometimes i think they have the better life. simpler quieter and focus on the little things in life instead of cable tv and internet. are you happy now miles sure the heck am. enjoying life. hope you are too. are you still trying to grow your business to make more money why miles you have a problem with growth oh ya must be greed. no tbone my salary has gone up an average of around 2-3% per year often less than inflation. companies growth has been 10-12% per year. but im sure youll figure out a way that must be greed. sigh. sure there are areas where you can survive on that level of income but they are trapped there. so much for freedom. as janis says freedoms just another word for having nothing left to lose. i know many at around the poverty level that i envy. they are quite happy. happier than many middle and upper class. you seem to live in a materialistic world and cant imagine how people c

From : tbone

tbone wrote you are wasting your time nate. miles knows everything about everything and has family who lives everywhere and does everything. funny how he described mexico as a third world nation and then says everyone there is living well and the poverty level is slim lol. 3rd world does not mean dirt poor. oh really go look it up and post the definition. its more of a cultural and sociological difference than an economic one. how would you know do you live there the number of people giving up everything to come here says different. you crack me up tbone. you and nate will argue about a country youve never been to and attempt to know all about it. too funny. i hate to burst your bubble miles you keep killing your own arguments. first you say that money there goes further then you say that just about everything but housing cost the same as it does here. how exactly then does money go further then you say that the mexican worker makes the same there as here and then say that companies there have significant savings in operating costs including labor. how exactly does that work i could go further but since all you will do is spin it there is no point. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

. 222 342783 bq7uj.10687$497.3092@fe14.phx nathan w. collier wrote what some website has to say is to me irrelevant. i base both my statement and belief on those who live there and work there. earlier i posted a link to my friend/employee oscar. he is one of my sources. imss is a mexican gov. office that reports economic conditions. they are not some website. as i said i do have family there and know the economy well. the average wage in mexico is not $5/hr and not even close. it is not a dirt poor country as so many americans who have never been there believe. .

From : miles

tbone wrote you are wasting your time nate. miles knows everything about everything and has family who lives everywhere and does everything. funny how he described mexico as a third world nation and then says everyone there is living well and the poverty level is slim lol. 3rd world does not mean dirt poor. its more of a cultural and sociological difference than an economic one. you crack me up tbone. you and nate will argue about a country youve never been to and attempt to know all about it. too funny. .

From : miles

tbone wrote so you are saying that the average mexican is making 15 to 20 dollars a day that is the average and not the median income. housing costs about 90% less than in the usa except in areas close to our borders. theres also considerable free housing available in many cities especially southern mexico. .

From : nathan w collier

imss is a mexican gov. this is laughable miles. you consider the mexican government credible ....i think ill put my trust in those who live and work there. the average joe....or average pedro would know a lot more about living conditions for the average pedro than would the corrupt government. -- nathan in montana http//bighorntactical.com http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p99sw99.com http//ppstalk.com http//p7talk.com office that reports economic conditions. they are not some website. as i said i do have family there and know the economy well. the average wage in mexico is not $5/hr and not even close. it is not a dirt poor country as so many americans who have never been there believe. .

From : miles

tbone wrote really name them. yes mexico really does have some good welfare programs. the progresa program for starters. it is a direct cash handout mostly to women with children in the very poorest of regions. it gives them cash they need for food etc. however it requires that their kids go to school rather than work the fields. the intent is to educate theses kids so they do not end up on welfare later in life themselves. .

From : tbone

tbone wrote really name them. yes mexico really does have some good welfare programs. the progresa program for starters. it is a direct cash handout mostly to women with children in the very poorest of regions. it gives them cash they need for food etc. however it requires that their kids go to school rather than work the fields. the intent is to educate theses kids so they do not end up on welfare later in life themselves. the only problem with this is that this program didnt even start until 1997 but thanks for proving my point once again. proponents of progresa say the program works because it attacks the source of low school attendance in mexico low family income. families in poor countries prefer to send their children to school but cannot live without the income their children provide. i guess that all of the families in mexico are not fat and happy like you suggest after all. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

tbone wrote the only problem with this is that this program didnt even start until 1997 but thanks for proving my point once again. proponents of progresa say the program works because it attacks the source of low school attendance in mexico low family income. families in poor countries prefer to send their children to school but cannot live without the income their children provide. i guess that all of the families in mexico are not fat and happy like you suggest after all. sigh. never said all. every family in the usa isnt as well. there are poor in every country of the world. you ask really and attempted to discount the fact decent welfare that helps people rather sustain as our programs do does exist in mexico. now you spin it with your rhetoric as usual! it exists tom!!! the programs are aimed at the poorest of mexicans in remote village type towns. not the cities where most people live. theyre also building schools in these areas as many such regions are so remote its often too far for kids to travel to a school. .

From : miles

tred and false promises from liberal politicians. lol sorry miles but the right are the kings of hatred. look what they did to this country now and what they did to clinton out of nothing but fear. clinton deserved it. no president should lie under oath to a grand jury no matter what the circumstances are and people like you make excuses for him to do so. i know you loved clinton but he was horrible. the economy had nothing to do with any thing he himself did. and it was a doomed economy anyways no matter what your liberal bandwagon rhetoric says. this country was and to a degree still is a laughing stock to many other countries due to that. too bad. clinton sold us out to china and n. korea and you just shrug your shoulders and laugh at that. its a sad day when politicians sell out to other countries out of fear of being laughed at. oh yea and the right always has lol! sorry miles but it very much has to do with the right and the idiot that we have for a president. lol everythings the rights and bushs fault. geez tbone typical liberal to always blame others. the dems have not delivered on their promises. they have made no attempt to. heck they blasted bush at his budget cuts wanting to spend even more. they campaigned to get the budget cut...ya its bushs fault they wish to spend considerably more than he does. yea right. how exactly are they going to do anything without spending money huh i see. the way to make things right is to spend more money. good grief. only in a liberals world!! the dems pelosi and company campaigned to cut spending. they named several areas they wished to trim from the budget. yet they did the opposite. they wanted to increase the budget considerably. your ilk blasts bush for spending too much then rants that to make things better we need to spend more. too funny. i guess that you would rather do as our president does and just take the money away from those that need it the most like the billions he wants to take from medicare and medicade to fund his bogus war instead of raising taxes of those that can afford it the most. since most of them are republicans they like you should be more than willing to support the war your god started. the war isnt part of the budget the dems wish to increase. no matter where you make cuts somebody isnt going to like it. yet the dems capaigned to do just that and then reversed once they got into power and you sit here and defend them on both what they campaigned on and what they are doing. to faced tbone! .

From : tbone

tbone wrote just because they are used to living well below what we would consider poverty doesnt mean tha they want to stay that way. i see. so they need liberals like yourself to keep telling them how miserable they are. everyone strives for more. but they arent miserable. theyre generally happy. how do you know this miles the fact is that you dont and i would say that many of them are not happy. sure many if not most can find some joy in their lives but that far from makes them truly happy. safety and security are two main points that allow people truly happy and living paycheck to paycheck does neither. you seem to think everyone needs to live how we do in the usa or they cant possibly be happy. lol i never said any such thing and not everyone is living in the us all that well either. however basic needs are pretty much the same for everyone and despite your bullshit that is not the case there or here for everyone and here is still better than there. sometimes i think they have the better life. simpler quieter and focus on the little things in life instead of cable tv and internet. and what exactly is stopping you from doing just that miles are you happy now miles sure the heck am. enjoying life. hope you are too. yes i am and thank you for asking as this is exactly my point. you are happy now and i bet that you were happy before you had the nice house the summer cabin the new cars the boat and everything else that you now have and yet you continue work to have more. you may claim that it is our culture but in reality it is just human nature. are you still trying to grow your business to make more money why miles you have a problem with growth not at all miles but if you are already happy what is the point seem like enough and even more than enough is still now enough for you. what makes you think that they are any different. oh ya must be greed. no tbone my salary has gone up an average of around 2-3% per year often less than inflation. companies growth has been 10-12% per year. but im sure youll figure out a way that must be greed. sigh. you are a bit paranoid miles. my point is that even though your company is doing well you continue to work to make it bigger. as i said miles this is human nature and the people of mexico are also human and despite you complete bullshit also strive to better themselves. sure there are areas where you can survive on that level of income but they are trapped there. so much for freedom. as janis says freedoms just another word for having nothing left to lose. i know many at around the poverty level that i envy. they are quite happy. happier than many middle and upper class. lol yea sure. if that were the case miles what is stopping you from joining them you seem to live in a materialistic world and cant imagine how people could be happier enjoying the little things in life. they dont have nor necessarily want cell phones cable tv etc. you must think the amish are miserable and need your liberal help. i guess that you have now defined liberal as someone who cares much unlike yourself and if thats the case then yea im a liberal and proud of it. but you are still the definition of the typical ignorant and greedy right that thinks the rest of the world is just stupid. there is a huge difference between having toys lile cell phones and cable and having enough money to put food on the table and a few dollars in the bank. you keep making the claim that the people that come here are un and under educated and the primary reason for that is that parents have to send those kids to work to put food on the table and the social program that you mentioned was put in place to combat that very thing. sorry miles but the more you say the more you prove what you dont know. yes you did miles. if most of the population is doing just fine for their needs then the economy is booming. huh um if you say so tom!! can anyone translate this rhetoric perhaps they can after they sort threw the bs and spin in the crap you typed above. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : nathan w collier

you and nate will argue about a country youve never been to and attempt to know all about it. too funny. coming from one quoting mexican government statistics thats laughable miles. -- nathan in montana http//bighorntactical.com http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p99sw99.com http//ppstalk.com http//p7talk.com .

From : mac davis

on mon 18 feb 2008 105829 -0700 nathan w. collier no@way.com wrote imss is a mexican gov. this is laughable miles. you consider the mexican government credible ...i think ill put my trust in those who live and work there. the average joe....or average pedro would know a lot more about living conditions for the average pedro than would the corrupt government. corrupt government oh you meant the u.s... i get it now.. mac please remove splinters before emailing .

From : mac davis

on mon 18 feb 2008 110713 -0700 nathan w. collier no@way.com wrote http//www.davisbaja.com/sept-baja.htm i did. thats really neat. what is that type of housing called and how is it constructed not sure what you mean by type of housing if you mean the style id guess something like southwest but i really dont know.. they just ask that it have a mexican flow to it.. we pretty much told the builder that we wanted 2 bedrooms and baths a shop and as few walls as possible.. his 2nd floorplan was right on and we told him to go for it.. the great room is about 30 feet long with no walls dividing what would be kitchen/living/dining rooms in the states.. lots of open space and windows lots of french doors front and back verandas etc.. the foundation is concrete slab poured on packed red dirt... the exterior walls are stuff made up of cement and styrofoam known as durawall performa wall and newdura... sort of like building out of block except the material is much lighter and better insulating.. also it comes in a lot longer strips so it foes up faster.. the roof is cement poured over a form braced on concrete beams on 24 centers.. i cant remember if its 4 6 or 8 thick.. the inside ceilings are 6 of foam which is plastered and painted.. the windows and patio doors are double pane and tinted.. thats about all i can remember nate.. mac please remove splinters before emailing .

From : nathan w collier

corrupt government oh you meant the u.s... i get it now.. isnt the mexican government more blatent about letting you buy your way out of anything i dont know the extent of their involvement in sending mexican troops into the us to smuggle drugs engaging our border patrol in the process but theyve done nothing to acknowledge the problem and seemingly nothing to end it. -- nathan in montana http//bighorntactical.com http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p99sw99.com http//ppstalk.com http//p7talk.com .

From : tbone

sadly many of bushs cuts will cause much more harm then people just not liking it. yet the dems capaigned to do just that and then reversed once they got into power and you sit here and defend them on both what they campaigned on and what they are doing. to faced tbone! any way that you want to spin it when the dems try bush just vetos or threatens to veto if it reaches his desk. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving . 222 342951 47bf9156$0$22803$4c368faf@roadrunner.com tbone wrote the only problem with this is that this program didnt even start until 1997 but thanks for proving my point once again. proponents of progresa say the program works because it attacks the source of low school attendance in mexico low family income. families in poor countries prefer to send their children to school but cannot live without the income their children provide. i guess that all of the families in mexico are not fat and happy like you suggest after all. sigh. never said all. every family in the usa isnt as well. there are poor in every country of the world. you ask really and attempted to discount the fact decent welfare that helps people rather sustain as our programs do does exist in mexico. now you spin it with your rhetoric as usual! it exists tom!!! you have mentioned one miles and its only around 10 years old. what else do they offer i agree that our programs dont work as they are but people like you would rether eliminate them and let the people starve rather than fix them because fixing them might initially cost some money. the programs are aimed at the poorest of mexicans in remote village type towns. not the cities where most people live. theyre also building schools in these areas as many such regions are so remote its often too far for kids to travel to a school. lol it has little to do with distance and more to do with earning enough money to live otherwise all they would need to do is build the schools and it is not targeted to those remote village type towns because one of the requirements is that the children remain in school and how exactly are they going to get there. you really need to get your facts straight miles. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

tbone wrote how do you know this miles the fact is that you dont and i would say that many of them are not happy. how do you know the tom fact is you dont. you guess as you always do. sure many if not most can find some joy in their lives but that far from makes them truly happy. yes they need liberals to tell them they are miserable and what they need to be happy. typical liberal absurdity at its worst. you are a bit paranoid miles. my point is that even though your company is doing well you continue to work to make it bigger. now just why would i do that tom i do so to be able to give more to others. something a compassionate liberal cant comprehend. ive spent almost 30% of my own money out of pocket directly helping others. that doesnt include donations to charity groups. how are you doing oh ya i must be greedy too as you say so often. as i said miles this is human nature and the people of mexico are also human and despite you complete bullshit also strive to better themselves. i strive to give to others. always have always will. try it tom. its very rewarding. but you are still the definition of the typical ignorant and greedy right that thinks the rest of the world is just stupid. no tom that would be you who thinks others are stupid. you think they need you to tell them theyre not really happy. .

From : miles

tbone wrote oh please miles more right wing bullshit. why was he even asked that because he was being investigated for sexual harassment. he was asked to show what kind of a character he truly is and that he had a habit of such behavior. what purpose did it serve you would have done exactly the same thing and just about everyone on the planet knows that the whole thing was a setup. setup clinton had scores of women accusing him of improper behavior long before he got into the wh. the guy was pure scum in this regard and you declare him innocent he admitted it in the end at least in one case. so now you feel hes innocent against all the other women who accused him good grief. doomed in what way more right wing crap. economists had predicted a collapse before clinton even left office. the economy did start down in his last year. .

From : miles

tbone wrote you have mentioned one miles and its only around 10 years old. what else do they offer i agree that our programs dont work as they are but people like you would rether eliminate them and let the people starve rather than fix them because fixing them might initially cost some money. ive always said i am all for social programs that help people get off of welfare. i am against social programs that do nothing but oppress and keep people dependent. .

From : tbone

im towing a lighter camper & was thinking about changing out a 4.10 to a 3.54 rear for better mpg what difference can i expect . cost involved for labor parts thanks .

From : tbone

tred and false promises from liberal politicians. lol sorry miles but the right are the kings of hatred. look what they did to this country now and what they did to clinton out of nothing but fear. clinton deserved it. no president should lie under oath to a grand jury no matter what the circumstances are and people like you make excuses for him to do so. oh please miles more right wing bullshit. why was he even asked that what purpose did it serve you would have done exactly the same thing and just about everyone on the planet knows that the whole thing was a setup. the right was scared to deth of him becaused during his term he more than proved that the right was completely full of shit and bush more than proved it. i know you loved clinton but he was horrible. the economy had nothing to do with any thing he himself did. and it was a doomed economy anyways no matter what your liberal bandwagon rhetoric says. doomed in what way more right wing crap. this country was and to a degree still is a laughing stock to many other countries due to that. too bad. clinton sold us out to china and n. korea and you just shrug your shoulders and laugh at that. its a sad day when politicians sell out to other countries out of fear of being laughed at. how exactly did he sell us out and what exactly should he have done oh yea and the right always has lol! sorry miles but it very much has to do with the right and the idiot that we have for a president. lol everythings the rights and bushs fault. yep they have been the ones in power for the longest for the last 12 years. geez tbone typical liberal to always blame others. sorry miles but thats the way of the right as well and they are much better at it. the dems have not delivered on their promises. they have made no attempt to. see what i mean. you are convinced that they have made no attempts but seem to ignore the fact that bush didnt veto a single bill until the dems took control of congress. sorry miles but as usual you are wrong again. heck they blasted bush at his budget cuts wanting to spend even more. because most of bushs budget cuts are aimed at the poor and social programs as well as state aid. they campaigned to get the budget cut...ya its bushs fault they wish to spend considerably more than he does. no thew wish it spent differently but we are locked into a war that will take years to get out of and wars cost money. yea right. how exactly are they going to do anything without spending money huh i see. the way to make things right is to spend more money. good grief. only in a liberals world!! once again your ignorance more than shows itself. the way to make things right is to spend the money where it is needed. unfortunantly we are locked into billions of wasted spending in a war that never should have happened. the dems pelosi and company campaigned to cut spending. they named several areas they wished to trim from the budget. yet they did the opposite. they wanted to increase the budget considerably. your ilk blasts bush for spending too much then rants that to make things better we need to spend more. too funny. lol lets see you back up this complete bullshit. the areas that they wished to trim th budget on are the very ones that the pinhead threatened to veto and then blame them for stopping progress. i guess that you would rather do as our president does and just take the money away from those that need it the most like the billions he wants to take from medicare and medicade to fund his bogus war instead of raising taxes of those that can afford it the most. since most of them are republicans they like you should be more than willing to support the war your god started. the war isnt part of the budget the dems wish to increase. no shit sherlock but bush has no trouble cutting the medicade and medicare budjets to fund it as well as many other social programs. no matter where

From : tbone

tbone wrote oh please miles more right wing bullshit. why was he even asked that because he was being investigated for sexual harassment. he was asked to show what kind of a character he truly is and that he had a habit of such behavior. like i said more right wing bullshit. funny how that investigation didnt begin until after the white water attempt failed and since monica never issued a complaint why did they ask what purpose did it serve you would have done exactly the same thing and just about everyone on the planet knows that the whole thing was a setup. setup clinton had scores of women accusing him of improper behavior long before he got into the wh. lol yea right and look at the character of the women making the claims. the guy was pure scum in this regard and you declare him innocent who said anything about him being innocent but when you look at the character of the women who accused him.... doomed in what way more right wing crap. economists had predicted a collapse before clinton even left office. the economy did start down in his last year. yes it did right after the first debate. but even after bushs massive tax cuts the economy still did crap unless you want to include the housing bubble which did a lot for me but screwed many people and will continue to do so for years to come. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

tbone wrote how do you know this miles the fact is that you dont and i would say that many of them are not happy. how do you know the tom fact is you dont. you guess as you always do. sorry miles but what i said is far more sensible than what you have. i do have friends in this situation and while they do see many of the joys in life they also face the very real fear of losing everything sonce they have little to fall back on and the worries of how to get their kids into a good college. sorry miles but most in this situation face these same challenges and fears and that is not true happiness. sure many if not most can find some joy in their lives but that far from makes them truly happy. yes they need liberals to tell them they are miserable and what they need to be happy. typical liberal absurdity at its worst. they need that about as much as you telling them that they are. sorry miles but it works both ways and if they are so happy and you are so envious of their lifestyles as you claim what is stopping you form joining them. you are a bit paranoid miles. my point is that even though your company is doing well you continue to work to make it bigger. now just why would i do that tom i do so to be able to give more to others. something a compassionate liberal cant comprehend. lol please miles just about everything else that you say in here says something very different. ive spent almost 30% of my own money out of pocket directly helping others. let me ask you something miles do you claim any of that money as tax deductions that doesnt include donations to charity groups. how are you doing oh ya i must be greedy too as you say so often. its not what i say miles but what you say. you keep saying that anyone working in unskilled labor shouldnt even make enough money to live. you also plan on continuing to pay yourself your full salary until either your company goes under or you die. yea thats real giving. sure you have all of the right wing justifications for doing it but it still equates to selfishness any way you try and spin it. as i said miles this is human nature and the people of mexico are also human and despite you complete bullshit also strive to better themselves. i strive to give to others. always have always will. try it tom. its very rewarding. again miles what you are saying here differs greatly from everything else that you say. but you are still the definition of the typical ignorant and greedy right that thinks the rest of the world is just stupid. no tom that would be you who thinks others are stupid. you think they need you to tell them theyre not really happy. and you seem to think that they need you to tell them that they are. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

tbone wrote sorry miles but what i said is far more sensible than what you have. i do have friends in this situation and while they do see many of the joys in life they also face the very real fear of losing everything sonce they have little to fall back on and the worries of how to get their kids into a good college. thats the usa not mexico. the usa isnt mexico. you have friends i work with these people weekly. wonder why so few liberals just say rather than do but thats a different issue! yes they need liberals to tell them they are miserable and what they need to be happy. typical liberal absurdity at its worst. they need that about as much as you telling them that they are. i dont tell them a thing. they tell me. its you trying to tell them theyre really miserable in typical liberal fashion and how your absurd liberalism can save them from such misery. youre sounding like a liberal politician. sorry miles but it works both ways and if they are so happy and you are so envious of their lifestyles as you claim what is stopping you form joining them. my folks did and in time i may do the same. they went from a 4000sf home on 2 acres to a 1200sf home on 1/8 acre. they went from a new airplane and 2 cadillacs to a 1998 ctd and a 2002 explorer. they could have more if they wanted but they dont want it and dont need liberals like you telling them that they do. lol please miles just about everything else that you say in here says something very different. oh ya tell me tom how many hours a week to you spend directly helping and working with others outside your own family not just donations but time. compassionate liberalism involves getting others to pay and give and never themselves. let me ask you something miles do you claim any of that money as tax deductions ya its always all about deductions huh so i give 30% out of my own pocket. tell me tom how much money does that generate for me sorry tom it doesnt generate me money it costs me money. but go ahead and not give to others so you cant be accused of a tax write off. good grief what a sorry reason not to give! in reality tom to answer your question no. i cant deduct 30%. most of it is not to charitable organizations. its directly to people i work with and help. dang compassionate liberals. its not what i say miles but what you say. you keep saying that anyone working in unskilled labor shouldnt even make enough money to live. never said that. i said minimum wage shouldnt be set as such nor should a walmart door greeter be paid as such etc. your view is that people should be paid based on need and not abilities. theres a social and economic system with that mentality..know what it is tom you also plan on continuing to pay yourself your full salary until either your company goes under or you die. yea thats real giving. you have never been able to explain why investing in my own company and retiring on its returns is bad. you have told me i should invest in other companies stocks etc.. why other companies and not my own again miles what you are saying here differs greatly from everything else that you say. bull. i have always said i give considerably as many conservatives do. liberals are all talk....talk with other peoples money and not their own. and you seem to think that they need you to tell them that they are. again they tell me and i leave it at that. i do not tell them anything. but you sure seem to! .

From : miles

tbone wrote since monica never issued a complaint why did they ask huh the court trial wasnt about monica. do you even know what clinton was being investigated for hint it wasnt about monica. he was questioned about her to show clinton had a pattern of such behavior for the case brought up against him....which wasnt about monica at all. what purpose did it serve you would have done exactly the same thing and just about everyone on the planet knows that the whole thing was a setup. most people certainly would not do the same thing. most people arent sexual harassers. ya i know clinton was a nice guy who treated women who worked for him with respect. sigh... who said anything about him being innocent but when you look at the character of the women who accused him.... you certainly do look the other way at his guilt. he had no respect for women who worked for him yet you keep defending this scum. .

From : miles

tbone wrote but even after bushs massive tax cuts the economy still did crap only in a hateful biased liberals mind. it began to grow considerably the following year while federal income grew faster than ever before. unless you want to include the housing bubble which did a lot for me but screwed many people as did clintons tech bubble which you seem to have loved so much and credit clinton for. .

From : tbone

tbone wrote sorry miles but what i said is far more sensible than what you have. i do have friends in this situation and while they do see many of the joys in life they also face the very real fear of losing everything sonce they have little to fall back on and the worries of how to get their kids into a good college. thats the usa not mexico. the usa isnt mexico. you have friends i work with these people weekly. wonder why so few liberals just say rather than do but thats a different issue! miles i work with them as well and many become my friends. and while this is the usa and not mexico people have the same fears everywhere. sure they may be more worried in mexico about putting food on the table each night then sending their kids to an ivy league school but how can anyone truly be happy with fears like going hungry or becoming homeless hanging over their heads every night. argue all you want miles i am the one with reality on my side and the masses comming over the border as well as the links that you provided back me up. yes they need liberals to tell them they are miserable and what they need to be happy. typical liberal absurdity at its worst. they need that about as much as you telling them that they are. i dont tell them a thing. they tell me. its you trying to tell them theyre really miserable in typical liberal fashion and how your absurd liberalism can save them from such misery. youre sounding like a liberal politician. lol there is a big difference between worried and miserable miles despite your right wing spin and again the people that you are dealing with are here in the usa where the standard of living is much higher even for our poor. in mexico true poverty very much can mean misery starvation and even death. i know that you keep denying it because you only see what you want to see. sorry miles but it works both ways and if they are so happy and you are so envious of their lifestyles as you claim what is stopping you form joining them. my folks did and in time i may do the same. they went from a 4000sf home on 2 acres to a 1200sf home on 1/8 acre. they went from a new airplane and 2 cadillacs to a 1998 ctd and a 2002 explorer. they could have more if they wanted but they dont want it and dont need liberals like you telling them that they do. once again spinmaster what you just said has nothing to do with what i asked. while your parents may have stepped down their lifestyles a bit im sure that they still have a lot of money in the bank which puts them in a completely different class from those that cant afford to do any better and have no savings at all. now if you think that their lifestyles are so great why dont you give away your business and get a job paying what they make and live that lifestyle lol please miles just about everything else that you say in here says something very different. oh ya tell me tom how many hours a week to you spend directly helping and working with others outside your own family not just donations but time. compassionate liberalism involves getting others to pay and give and never themselves. it differs from week to week but on average around 5 to 15 hours a week sometimes more sometimes less. as i said before i have a second business doing home improvements and repairs and many times i help those that dont have much money by making those repairs for them at not much over cost when i know they need the help. the difference here miles is that while you pay yourself your full salary whether you work or not being an independant contractor every hour i spend doing this costs me money so dont give me that bullshit about liberalism. let me ask you something miles do you claim any of that money as tax deductions ya its always all about deductions huh so i give 30% out of my own pocket. tell me tom how much money does that generate for me sorry tom it doesnt generate me money it costs me money. im sure that you are not doing it for nothing miles and im not trying to attack you im going by what you say and how you react to situations. in many ways you make it sound like the only reason to do anything is to benefit yourself so what exactly is the benefit here. i would say that it is either the tax rightoff or it makes you look better and not like a scumbag that lives well at the expence of your workers. now i dont know if this is the reason or not but from what you say..... but go ahead and not give to others so you cant be accused of a tax write off. good grief what a sorry reason not to give! lol how did you come up with this load of crap. i am simply trying to discover your motivation for doing this because by what you say true concern for others takes a distant second place to profit. in reality tom to answer your question no. i cant deduct 30%. most of it is not to charitable organizations. its directly to peo

From : tbone

tbone wrote but even after bushs massive tax cuts the economy still did crap only in a hateful biased liberals mind. it began to grow considerably the following year while federal income grew faster than ever before. what you call growth most call recover from but even there while big business made a lot of money the same cannot be said for the majority of americans. unless you want to include the housing bubble which did a lot for me but screwed many people as did clintons tech bubble which you seem to have loved so much and credit clinton for. actually you are the one that just credited him for it by calling it clintons tech bubble. the thing is that during the tech bubble the whole economy took off because many people had well paying jobs and were spending money unlike now. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

tbone wrote miles i work with them as well and many become my friends. and while this is the usa and not mexico people have the same fears everywhere. tbone its really simple. if they say they are happy then i leave it at that. only a liberal would feel the need to tell them they are wrong and dont know any better. in mexico true poverty very much can mean misery starvation and even death. i know that you keep denying it because you only see what you want to see. if they say they are happy then who are you to tell them theyre wrong trouble with you tbone is you seem to know what you do not see. nobody needs you or any other liberal to tell them how they feel and what they need. the difference here miles is that while you pay yourself your full salary whether you work or not being an independant contractor every hour i spend doing this costs me money so dont give me that bullshit about liberalism. right tom! tell me how you plan to retire you invest i hope and will retire off the revenues from those investments. unless you feel as youve told me so much that such is totally wrong. so i guess we just live on a negative return investment called social security huh you have no good reason why it is wrong to invest in ones own company but perfectly fine to invest in someone elses stocks. im sure that you are not doing it for nothing miles and im not trying to attack you im going by what you say and how you react to situations. its not for nothing. its to help others. when i see the effects helping others has it does make me feel great. thats what i get out of it. your hatred and bias makes you believe i nor other reps or conservatives help others in big ways. got for ya tom. every single organization ive ever belonged to that does charitable work was mostly conservatives. such as our local 20-30 club but im older than 39 so that was awhile ago! liberals are all talk and little action themselves. many ways you make it sound like the only reason to do anything is to benefit yourself so what exactly is the benefit here. no tom that would be your bias talking. you keep telling me how i am through your own beliefs devoid of factual substance. i like most conservatives give considerably through their own time as well as money. you do not see that because you choose not too. it goes against what you believe. i would say that it is either the tax rightoff write off ok i donate $60000 a year and that helps me finacially exactly how even if it were all tax deductible which its not it will not generate me anywheres near 60k in tax savings. not even close. write off huh good grief. lol how did you come up with this load of crap. i am simply trying to discover your motivation for doing this because by what you say true concern for others takes a distant second place to profit. no tom thats your hatred talking rather than reality. while i have no idea id be willing to wager i give far more of my own time and money helping others than you. put your time and money where your mouth is tom. perhaps if you paid them a resonable salary to begin with you wouldnt have to help them on the side but then again you can screw them over this way and look good and caring while doing it. how right of you. huh they dont work for me. geez are you on a rampage of pure biased hatred tonight! then what exactly is the purpose of the minimum wage miles not every minimum wage job is a wallmart door greeter and some of these minimum wage jobs are not so unskilled and actually hard to do. if they are so hard to do then the company would be hard pressed to find someone capable of doing that job for minimum wage. because only an idiot puts all of their eggs in one basket miles and how exactly are you investing that does not explain why you feel its wrong to invest in ones own company and retire on its returns. why is it wrong when investing in others companies is fine .

From : tbone

tbone wrote miles i work with them as well and many become my friends. and while this is the usa and not mexico people have the same fears everywhere. tbone its really simple. if they say they are happy then i leave it at that. only a liberal would feel the need to tell them they are wrong and dont know any better. only a conservative would assume such a thing. perhaps what i hear is different than what you do. could that be possible in mexico true poverty very much can mean misery starvation and even death. i know that you keep denying it because you only see what you want to see. if they say they are happy then who are you to tell them theyre wrong ive done no such thing but unless you have heard from the majority of the popullation and you havent your claims are as invalid as you claim mine to be. trouble with you tbone is you seem to know what you do not see. nobody needs you or any other liberal to tell them how they feel and what they need. lol the only one making the claim that liberals or anyone else are telling people how they feel is you. i am simply going by what i am told and the number of them coming here goes against everything that you say. the difference here miles is that while you pay yourself your full salary whether you work or not being an independant contractor every hour i spend doing this costs me money so dont give me that bullshit about liberalism. right tom! tell me how you plan to retire you invest i hope and will retire off the revenues from those investments. unless you feel as youve told me so much that such is totally wrong. so i guess we just live on a negative return investment called social security huh you have no good reason why it is wrong to invest in ones own company but perfectly fine to invest in someone elses stocks. please expalin to me how this paragraph above has anything at all to do with the one you were replying to. as for investing i am all for that but please expalain to me how you are investing in your company. as far as i can see you are not doing anything more than any of your other employees so are you saying that they all have this same oppertunity im sure that you are not doing it for nothing miles and im not trying to attack you im going by what you say and how you react to situations. its not for nothing. its to help others. when i see the effects helping others has it does make me feel great. thats what i get out of it. your hatred and bias makes you believe i nor other reps or conservatives help others in big ways. i never said that miles but as i have said many times if thise business owners many of them conservatives actually paid their employees a living wage then most of this help would be unnecessary. got for ya tom. every single organization ive ever belonged to that does charitable work was mostly conservatives. such as our local 20-30 club but im older than 39 so that was awhile ago! liberals are all talk and little action themselves. lol perhaps thats because most of them are conservative organizations to begin with. not going to find many liberals there as the heated political arguments and different ways of thinking wouldnt get much done. now you make the claim that because there were few liberals involved in a conservative organization that they dont do anything. could you possibly sound any more ignorant. many ways you make it sound like the only reason to do anything is to benefit yourself so what exactly is the benefit here. no tom that would be your bias talking. you keep telling me how i am through your own beliefs devoid of factual substance. i like most conservatives give considerably through their own time as well as money. you do not see that because you choose not too. it goes against what you believe. no miles i just see the big picture and you keep making claims that you cannot possibly back up. if what you say is true and i have no reason not to believe you then you do seem to give but saying that most conservatives do as well is nothing more than your belief and the fact that we have so many in this country without health insurance and considered working poor says something completely different. face it miles as long as there are poor in need those above them have power and control over them and that is something not so easy to give up and sadly many of those that give are doing it to maintain that power and control. lol how did you come up with this load of crap. i am simply trying to discover your motivation for doing this because by what you say true concern for others takes a distant second place to profit. no tom thats your hatred talking rather than reality. while i have no idea id be willing to wager i give far more of my own time and money helping others than you. put your time and money where your mouth is tom. you may give more money than i d

From : tbone

tbone wrote since monica never issued a complaint why did they ask huh the court trial wasnt about monica. do you even know what clinton was being investigated for sure i do right wing fear. clinton was doing everything that the right swore would destroy the economy and the economy was doing just fine. hint it wasnt about monica. no she was just the set up and trap how lame. he was questioned about her to show clinton had a pattern of such behavior for the case brought up against him....which wasnt about monica at all. but that makes no sense. how does what he did with monica have anything to do with sexual harassment men can cheat on their wives and not be sexual harassers. it seems more to me that many of these women simply thought that giveng him a little something would get them somewhere and when it didnt they got pissed off. funny how none of them tried to do anything until he became president and one of them posed for playboy. yea real high self proclaimed moral values there. what purpose did it serve you would have done exactly the same thing and just about everyone on the planet knows that the whole thing was a setup. most people certainly would not do the same thing. most people arent sexual harassers. ya i know clinton was a nice guy who treated women who worked for him with respect. sigh... lol can we put a stop to the spin for even a second. what i said was that most men in that situation would deny cheating on their wifes in public. clinton is far from the only man to do that including others in important political positions. do you remember newt who said anything about him being innocent but when you look at the character of the women who accused him.... you certainly do look the other way at his guilt. he had no respect for women who worked for him yet you keep defending this scum. simply put miles you really dont know exactly what happened in any of those situations. sure its easy for you to fully blame clinton for everything especially since you hate him the way that you do but that doesnt make it true. sure he was a slime messing with these women and cheating on his wife but something tells me that many of these women had their own ideas and got pissed when it didnt work their way. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

tbone wrote but that makes no sense. how does what he did with monica have anything to do with sexual harassment you have no clue what the entire sexual harassment issue through the 80s and 90s was all about do you it was about people in power exploiting those under them through sex. guess you see nothing wrong with that. it seems more to me that many of these women simply thought that giveng him a little something would get them somewhere and when it didnt they got pissed off. for some it did get them somewhere. that tbone is what sexual harassment is. those that give these scum business leaders sex are often given preferential treatment in the business. that tbone is sexual harassment. lol can we put a stop to the spin for even a second. what i said was that most men in that situation would deny cheating on their wifes in public. clinton is far from the only man to do that including others in important political positions. it was more than just cheating on his wife. he used his position of power to gain him such favors and thats sexual harassment. this began long before he was in the wh. simply put miles you really dont know exactly what happened in any of those situations. sure its easy for you to fully blame clinton for everything especially since you hate him the way that you do but that doesnt make it true. sure he was a slime messing with these women and cheating on his wife but something tells me that many of these women had their own ideas and got pissed when it didnt work their way. .

From : miles

tbone wrote only a conservative would assume such a thing. perhaps what i hear is different than what you do. could that be possible youve never been there or heard from anyone that i have yet youve heard huh sorry tbone i do not assume anything...that would be your liberal mentality. geez is your far radical left side coming out in full force! trying to tell someone that theyre really miserable and how your liberal socialistic policies can save them from their misery. unbelievable you really believe your rhetoric! ive done no such thing but unless you have heard from the majority of the popullation and you havent your claims are as invalid as you claim mine to be. youve never traveled to mexico and spoken with the locals yet you know them better huh too funny. lol the only one making the claim that liberals or anyone else are telling people how they feel is you. no tbone you keep telling me how you know they are really miserable even though they say they are not. now you deny trying to tell them they must be wrong i am simply going by what i am told and the number of them coming here goes against everything that you say. those coming here are not representative of the mexican population as a whole. they are a select segment of the population...not mexico. as for investing i am all for that but please expalain to me how you are investing in your company. huh one cant invest in their own company hmm... as far as i can see you are not doing anything more than any of your other employees so are you saying that they all have this same oppertunity i do the same thing as employees huh so what you are saying is that the walmart door greeter is doing the same thing as the store manager. good grief! i never said that miles but as i have said many times if thise business owners many of them conservatives actually paid their employees a living wage then most of this help would be unnecessary. most do just that. minimum wage at my company is $10/hr to start for a totally unskilled job such as front receptionist who mostly reads books and greets the occasional client. ya i know that person should make $20 or $30 im sure. lol perhaps thats because most of them are conservative organizations to begin with. yep and thats because liberals do not start nor belong to very many such organizations. theyre all talk with other peoples money instead of their own money and time. if what you say is true and i have no reason not to believe you then you do seem to give but saying that most conservatives do as well is nothing more than your belie not so at all. i grew up around top politicians and business owners. every one of them gave considerable sums of money and more importantly their time directly helping others. many business owners started very worthwhile charitable organizations. ya i know it was all for some tax write off that somehow magically generated them more money. could never have been because they wanted to help others. and the fact that we have so many in this country without health insurance and considered working poor says something completely different. how is that the republicans and conservatives fault and not just as much the democrats and liberals its not. furthermore socialistic welfare handouts of the left have never done a thing to reduce poverty. but they have in many cases oppressed. face it miles as long as there are poor in need those above them have power and control over them and that is something not so easy to give up and sadly many of those that give are doing it to maintain that power and control. yes and liberals do that extremely well through their social hand out programs. they gain and maintain control through them. youve told me you agree and are against such welfare programs. yet these are exactly what the democrats keep promoting and you support them. first you say that you are helping the people that you work with and now you say that they dont work for you. which way is it youre confused. i work often with kids by spending time with them taking them places they would never be able to go otherwise. i work with their families helping them to have better homes and learn how to gain skills to be less dependent on society. how exactly are you investing miles and how many of your employees who are also working to make your company a success able to invest in it this way feel free to invest any of your own money yourself and you too can partake in any returns. you seem to feel that owners who use their own funds to start a company and then continue to invest their own money shouldnt make a return greater than the investment. sorry tbone thats what investments are whether into my own company or someone elses stocks. so i guess now we need some sort of socialized investment program where even those that dont invest still get a return .

From : tbone

tbone wrote only a conservative would assume such a thing. perhaps what i hear is different than what you do. could that be possible youve never been there or heard from anyone that i have yet youve heard huh are you now saying that you have personaly spoken to every citizen of mexico amd if not then wtf are you talking about nc has a rather high mexican population and i speak to quite a few of them both legal and possibly not. most say they came for the same reason the living conditions and sorry miles they are not all uneducated lazy slugs as you would have us believe. sorry tbone i do not assume anything...that would be your liberal mentality. geez is your far radical left side coming out in full force! trying to tell someone that theyre really miserable and how your liberal socialistic policies can save them from their misery. unbelievable you really believe your rhetoric! is your argument really this weak. oh hell who am i asking of course it is. ive done no such thing but unless you have heard from the majority of the popullation and you havent your claims are as invalid as you claim mine to be. youve never traveled to mexico and spoken with the locals yet you know them better huh too funny. i dont have to. there are more than enough of them here. lol the only one making the claim that liberals or anyone else are telling people how they feel is you. no tbone you keep telling me how you know they are really miserable even though they say they are not. now you deny trying to tell them they must be wrong sorry to burst your bubble miles but they say no such thing. perhaps the select few that your wealthy parents know probably do but that is not representitive of the entire population. now i know that you will go on talking about your sister in law but yet again she is also not.... i am simply going by what i am told and the number of them coming here goes against everything that you say. those coming here are not representative of the mexican population as a whole. they are a select segment of the population...not mexico. htf do you know this miles have you been sitting at the border interviewing them as they cross over this is just your assumption and nothing more. as for investing i am all for that but please expalain to me how you are investing in your company. huh one cant invest in their own company hmm... as usual you dont answer the question. how exactly are you investing in the company as far as i can see you are not doing anything more than any of your other employees so are you saying that they all have this same oppertunity i do the same thing as employees huh so what you are saying is that the walmart door greeter is doing the same thing as the store manager. good grief! in many cases that would be correct. please explain what you do that is really all that different than anyone else short of your receptionist. i never said that miles but as i have said many times if thise business owners many of them conservatives actually paid their employees a living wage then most of this help would be unnecessary. most do just that. minimum wage at my company is $10/hr to start for a totally unskilled job such as front receptionist who mostly reads books and greets the occasional client. ya i know that person should make $20 or $30 im sure. well you are the one that said that the illegals in your area are getting $15 an hour and up for not doing all that much more work. $10/hr comes out to a little more than 20g a year. could you live in your area on that and im not talking about living the way that you do. could you reasonably live on that at all if so then you are doing the right thing but even here in nc it would be difficult to do. lol perhaps thats because most of them are conservative organizations to begin with. yep and thats because liberals do not start nor belong to very many such organizations. theyre all talk with other peoples money instead of their own money and time. once again you spew out complete horse shit that as usual you cannot possibly back up. if what you say is true and i have no reason not to believe you then you do seem to give but saying that most conservatives do as well is nothing more than your belie not so at all. i grew up around top politicians and business owners. every one of them gave considerable sums of money and more importantly their time directly helping others. many business owners started very worthwhile charitable organizations. ya i know it was all for some tax write off that somehow magically generated them more money. could never have been because they wanted to help others. if they can afford to do this then why didnt they give more money to their lower paid employees and eliminate the problem before it starts sounds to me like these business owners just like that feeling

From : tbone

tbone wrote but that makes no sense. how does what he did with monica have anything to do with sexual harassment you have no clue what the entire sexual harassment issue through the 80s and 90s was all about do you it was about people in power exploiting those under them through sex. guess you see nothing wrong with that. actually that is not the correct definition an how exactly was he exploiting monica it seems to me that she was a willing participant and that alone by definition makes it not sexual harassment. go look up the definition. it seems more to me that many of these women simply thought that giveng him a little something would get them somewhere and when it didnt they got pissed off. for some it did get them somewhere. that tbone is what sexual harassment is. those that give these scum business leaders sex are often given preferential treatment in the business. that tbone is sexual harassment. sorry miles but that is incorrect. lol can we put a stop to the spin for even a second. what i said was that most men in that situation would deny cheating on their wifes in public. clinton is far from the only man to do that including others in important political positions. it was more than just cheating on his wife. he used his position of power to gain him such favors and thats sexual harassment. this began long before he was in the wh. sorry miles but your right wing definition of sexual harassment is wrong. the sexual advances have to both be continual and unwanted. if i were to ask someone one time if they wanted to sleep with me and didnt threaten them if they said no that is not sexual harassment. if i kept asking after they asked me to stop threatened them is they said no or offered them an improved position if they said yes then it would be but that was not the case with monica or prpbably most of the ones that accused him. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

tbone wrote actually that is not the correct definition an how exactly was he exploiting monica geez tom you have no clue what sexual harassment means do you feel its about rape or something it seems to me that she was a willing participant and that alone by definition makes it not sexual harassment. go look up the definition. lol i think you need to do just that!! quid pro quo is the form clinton was accused of or possible the counselor-helper form which is using position of power to gain sexual favors in the workplace. there are many forms. for some it did get them somewhere. that tbone is what sexual harassment is. those that give these scum business leaders sex are often given preferential treatment in the business. that tbone is sexual harassment. sorry miles but that is incorrect. uh no tom you would be incorrect. you seem to feel theres only one form probably forced verbal and physically. not so. the scenario above was the main issue involved in all the harassment cases of the 80s and 90s. sorry miles but your right wing definition of sexual harassment is wrong. the sexual advances have to both be continual and unwanted. bull!!! thats only one form of harassment. there are over a dozen definitions that vary from state to state and the federal gov. lists quite a few as well. if i were to ask someone one time if they wanted to sleep with me and didnt threaten them if they said no that is not sexual harassment. no threats need to be made. offers of advancement special privilides in the workplace etc. in exchange is also considered sexual harassment despite your claims otherwise. or offered them an improved position if they said yes then it would be but that was not the case with monica or prpbably most of the ones that accused him. ding ding we have a winner. that is what clinton was accused of and why charges were filed against him. the questioning of monica most certainly did deal with this issue. .

From : miles

tbone wrote are you now saying that you have personaly spoken to every citizen of mexico amd if not then wtf are you talking about hmm wtf are you talking about ive spoken with many locals all over mexico. youve spoken with none yet youve heard them and know they cant be happy even if they say they are. typical liberal rhetoric of thinking you can tell people what they need and how they feel. nc has a rather high mexican population lol that tbone says it all. thats those in the usa. a select segment of the mexican population. until you travel there tbone you have no clue about anything in mexico despite your lame attempts. its too much for you to admit you know zilch about mexico so instead you argue as you have been. i dont have to. there are more than enough of them here. you feel you can understand mexico by the select segment that come to the usa lol if you ever travel to mexico youre in for a huge does of enlightenment. youll find the people in mexico are generally vastly different in many ways. but go ahead with your fantasy then travel there with your expectations. sorry to burst your bubble miles but they say no such thing. perhaps the select few that your wealthy parents know probably do but that is not representitive of the entire population. lol theyre over in baja. i havent even mentioned anyone over there but go on with your rhetoric! you base your entire knowledge of mexico on a select few that have come to the usa. too funny. those coming here are not representative of the mexican population as a whole. they are a select segment of the population...not mexico. htf do you know this miles because tbone i know many of them here in the usa just like you. i also have traveled around mexico and see the difference. you have not and yet you know more about mexico dont think so tom but feel free to argue some more about a country youve never been to. its darn right laughable! as usual you dont answer the question. how exactly are you investing in the company by continually improving and updating technology in order to stay competitive. now tom explain your question itself. you seem to have trouble with investing in a company. i do the same thing as employees huh so what you are saying is that the walmart door greeter is doing the same thing as the store manager. good grief! in many cases that would be correct. please explain what you do that is really all that different than anyone else short of your receptionist. wtf are you talking about all jobs are really all the same and therefore everyone should be paid about the same wtf are you trying to say here you really feel the receptionist can manage the company too funny. $10/hr comes out to a little more than 20g a year. could you live in your area on that and im not talking about living the way that you do. could you reasonably live on that at all if so then you are doing the right thing but even here in nc it would be difficult to do. yes i realize your communistic tendencies with regards to setting salaries on ones needs rather than on ones abilities. sorry that system has not worked well anywhere its been tried. if they can afford to do this then why didnt they give more money to their lower paid employees and eliminate the problem before it starts sounds to me like these business owners just like that feeling of power. oh of course. gotta be all about power. every business owner i deal with pays their employees far above market wages as well as union wages in the area. thats how good businesses keep their skilled employees rather than loose them to the competition. but i dont expect you to comprehend that philosophy because it is counter to your bias and hatred. its not. furthermore socialistic welfare handouts of the left have never done a thing to reduce poverty. but they have in many cases oppressed. once again you really dont know wtf you are talking about. oh by all means do tell! please explain the great social programs that have reduced poverty. explain what sustained years poverty dropped substantially in this country as a direct result of social hand outs. sorry tbone there has been and always will be poverty. perhaps if people like yourself would stop justifying the lowest pay possible and started paying people that work hard and are dependable a working wage this would be much less necessary. any way that you want to spin it miles there are simply not enough skilled jobs available for everyone that needs them. what are you saying so we need to create them like russia does pay intro level unskilled workers based on needs rather than abilities thats been done in russia. guess what they were still just as poor as ever but youve never understand why it doesnt work. i would say that by now your company has returned your initial investment many times over so how muc

From : tbone

tbone wrote actually that is not the correct definition an how exactly was he exploiting monica geez tom you have no clue what sexual harassment means do you feel its about rape or something not at all miles but harassment has to be harassment and what you are calling sexual harassment is simply not the case. it seems to me that she was a willing participant and that alone by definition makes it not sexual harassment. go look up the definition. lol i think you need to do just that!! quid pro quo is the form clinton was accused of or possible the counselor-helper form which is using position of power to gain sexual favors in the workplace. there are many forms. you need to further look up or at least understand the definition miles. every version still indicates either some type of force or harassment.. any way you want to spin it miles it was a desperate act by the right due to fear and hatred. for some it did get them somewhere. that tbone is what sexual harassment is. those that give these scum business leaders sex are often given preferential treatment in the business. that tbone is sexual harassment. sorry miles but that is incorrect. uh no tom you would be incorrect. you seem to feel theres only one form probably forced verbal and physically. not so. the scenario above was the main issue involved in all the harassment cases of the 80s and 90s. again miles you dont have a clue. sorry miles but your right wing definition of sexual harassment is wrong. the sexual advances have to both be continual and unwanted. bull!!! thats only one form of harassment. there are over a dozen definitions that vary from state to state and the federal gov. lists quite a few as well. and they all have a general premise that was not present with monica. if i were to ask someone one time if they wanted to sleep with me and didnt threaten them if they said no that is not sexual harassment. no threats need to be made. offers of advancement special privilides in the workplace etc. in exchange is also considered sexual harassment despite your claims otherwise. that is correct miles because that is also considered a threat. if you sleep with me you will get whatever also translates into if you dont sleep with me you will not get whatever. what exactly was monica either promised or threatened with or offered them an improved position if they said yes then it would be but that was not the case with monica or prpbably most of the ones that accused him. ding ding we have a winner. that is what clinton was accused of and why charges were filed against him. the questioning of monica most certainly did deal with this issue. not really. btw they didnt ask bill if he sexually harassed her only if he had sex with her. iow a lame attempt to discredit him out of fear and hatred. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

tbone wrote you need to further look up or at least understand the definition miles. every version still indicates either some type of force or harassment.. any way you want to spin it miles it was a desperate act by the right due to fear and hatred. you feel it means against ones will. not so. as for your desperate act rhetoric look at what the left has done lately and for decades. they have on case after another against reps. most are just for public consumption gains as they are dropped as the left knows they will be. the investigation wasnt launched by the reps. a single individual a dem filed a suit as did other women almost all of which were dems. that is correct miles because that is also considered a threat. if you sleep with me you will get whatever also translates into if you dont sleep with me you will not get whatever. what exactly was monica either promised or threatened with threatened she was given preferential treatment far and above any other page at the wh because she put out. that is exactly what triggered the sexual harassment movement of the 80s. she couldnt get those privileges unless she did. even willingly agreeing can still be considered harassment. clinton used his power status for sexual gains in the workplace in exchange for privileged status. however she didnt press charges so the case wasnt about her. she did publicly claim harassment after the case was over because clinton dissed her when he got busted. she never pressed charges. she was a character witness to a grand jury investigating a case against clinton. it was only a grand jury investigation not a trial that monica was involved in. the resulting trial was because clinton lied under oath. not really. btw they didnt ask bill if he sexually harassed her only if he had sex with her. iow a lame attempt to discredit him out of fear and hatred. lol before they asked that question they proved he had given rather unique special privileges to monica. that was established. .

From : tbone

tbone wrote are you now saying that you have personaly spoken to every citizen of mexico amd if not then wtf are you talking about hmm wtf are you talking about ive spoken with many locals all over mexico. youve spoken with none yet youve heard them and know they cant be happy even if they say they are. typical liberal rhetoric of thinking you can tell people what they need and how they feel. i find that hard to believe miles. the way that you described your childhood shows that your parents liked to be involved with the upper classes so i really doubt that they delt much with the poor in mexico. sure compared to the way you probably lived many of them seemed poor compared to your standard of living but as you say they have a different life style and probably were somewhat well off compared to the ones im talking about. nc has a rather high mexican population lol that tbone says it all. thats those in the usa. a select segment of the mexican population. until you travel there tbone you have no clue about anything in mexico despite your lame attempts. its too much for you to admit you know zilch about mexico so instead you argue as you have been. lol sorry miles but you really dont have a clue. im sure that in the areas that you hung out in mexico many of the people there are happy but that does not make it the whole country. you then make the claim that only a select group of people from there are unhappy and say that they are the un and under educated but give no reason as to why. the reason miles is that they didnt have the privilege to go to school as for many there were no schools in the area and even if there were they needed their children to work as soon as they could to put food on the table because they simply couldnt make enough money to do it on their own and the social program in mexico that you posted giving money to families with children to keep them in school confirms that very thing. i dont have to. there are more than enough of them here. you feel you can understand mexico by the select segment that come to the usa lol if you ever travel to mexico youre in for a huge does of enlightenment. youll find the people in mexico are generally vastly different in many ways. but go ahead with your fantasy then travel there with your expectations. lol nobody ever said that everyone in mexico wanted to leave miles. but with over 40% at or below the poverty line if even only 20% of those people want to leave that is a significantly large number and not all of these people are either ignorant or lazy. sorry to burst your bubble miles but they say no such thing. perhaps the select few that your wealthy parents know probably do but that is not representitive of the entire population. lol theyre over in baja. i havent even mentioned anyone over there but go on with your rhetoric! you base your entire knowledge of mexico on a select few that have come to the usa. too funny. lol if it were only a few we wouldnt be having this discussion. those coming here are not representative of the mexican population as a whole. they are a select segment of the population...not mexico. htf do you know this miles because tbone i know many of them here in the usa just like you. i also have traveled around mexico and see the difference. you have not and yet you know more about mexico dont think so tom but feel free to argue some more about a country youve never been to. its darn right laughable! sorry miles but the only one laughable right now is you. nobody said that they all want to come here but there are enough to make the borders a problem. as usual you dont answer the question. how exactly are you investing in the company by continually improving and updating technology in order to stay competitive. now tom explain your question itself. you seem to have trouble with investing in a company. sorry miles but thats how any company stays in business and every manager does or at least tries to do that and no matter how much tech you have without skilled hard working people you will still go under so it seems that your employees are investing the same amount as you do. why is it then that they unlike you get nothing more than a paycheck if you invest then you should get a return right miles i do the same thing as employees huh so what you are saying is that the walmart door greeter is doing the same thing as the store manager. good grief! in many cases that would be correct. please explain what you do that is really all that different than anyone else short of your receptionist. wtf are you talking about all jobs are really all the same and therefore everyone should be paid about the same wtf are you trying to say here you really feel the receptionist can manage the company too funny. yawn your spin is really getting old. i didnt say that the receptionist

From : tbone

tbone wrote you need to further look up or at least understand the definition miles. every version still indicates either some type of force or harassment.. any way you want to spin it miles it was a desperate act by the right due to fear and hatred. you feel it means against ones will. by the definition of harassment that is correct. not so. as for your desperate act rhetoric look at what the left has done lately and for decades. oh please miles the left has never been as good at stirring up shit as the right. the left tend to look at the big picture and see all of the damage that these things can cause something that the right could give a rats ass about. sadly the left are beginning to learn how to attack without concern as well. they have on case after another against reps. really name a few. most are just for public consumption gains as they are dropped as the left knows they will be. the investigation wasnt launched by the reps. a single individual a dem filed a suit as did other women almost all of which were dems. lol yea and the right had nothing to do with it. give me a break miles. that is correct miles because that is also considered a threat. if you sleep with me you will get whatever also translates into if you dont sleep with me you will not get whatever. what exactly was monica either promised or threatened with threatened she was given preferential treatment far and above any other page at the wh because she put out. and your proof is oh thats right you dont have any. sorry miles but any preferential treatment that she may have received could simply be because he liked her and that is just human nature. that is exactly what triggered the sexual harassment movement of the 80s. she couldnt get those privileges unless she did. once again and as usual you make accusations that you cannot possibly hope to prove or even back up. even willingly agreeing can still be considered harassment. no it cannot. agreeing and willingly agreeing are two very different things. a person may agree to something due to a want or need of something offered while willingly agreeing means that you would agree to it regardless of any offer. clinton used his power status for sexual gains in the workplace in exchange for privileged status. i suppose that he may have at times and unfortunantly he is not alone there but in the case of monica there is no proof of any kind that he did that there. however she didnt press charges so the case wasnt about her. of course not. if they tried that one further investigation would have revealed the setup that it was. she did publicly claim harassment after the case was over because clinton dissed her when he got busted. duh no shit. she was revealed to be the lowlife scumbag that she was and was trying to save face. she never pressed charges. again she couldnt because the true facts of what really happened would have came to light and the reps would never allow that to happen. she was a character witness to a grand jury investigating a case against clinton. it was only a grand jury investigation not a trial that monica was involved in. iow a fishing expedition and a set up to a sitting president by a scared desperate and cowerdly party. the resulting trial was because clinton lied under oath. again a win win situation for the reps regardless of how it made the country look. had he told the truth he would have been discrased and if he lied he would still be discrased by a trial that never should have happened while he was in office but it would serve no point to the reps after he left. not really. btw they didnt ask bill if he sexually harassed her only if he had sex with her. iow a lame attempt to discredit him out of fear and hatred. lol before they asked that question they proved he had given rather unique special privileges to monica. that was established. oh really how about backing that one up and then prove that it was due to sexual favors and not just because he liked her. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : milesmiles

tbone wrote you feel it means against ones will. by the definition of harassment that is correct. thats one definition and not the definition as defined by the courts. you seem to have slept through the main issue during the sex harassment movement of the 80s. lol yea and the right had nothing to do with it. give me a break miles. she filed the complaint while clinton was still a gov. geez tom is your hateful bias in full swing. duh no shit. she was revealed to be the lowlife scumbag that she was and was trying to save face. you feel she was a lowlife but clinton was just fine in all this huh a tad bit biased there tom! again a win win situation for the reps regardless of how it made the country look. had he told the truth he would have been discrased as he should be. he used his power in office for sexual gains in the workplace. thats disgusting especially for a seated president. couldnt he have taken her to a hotel instead of using the janitors closet in the wh .

From : tbone

tbone wrote i find that hard to believe miles. the way that you described your childhood shows that your parents liked to be involved with the upper classes so i really doubt that they delt much with the poor in mexico. oh geez. there goes your warped biased arrogant views again. i lived in mexico most of the summers and often through the rest of the year as a kid. in an old old airstream trailer that wasnt very big. yes we dealt with the poor in mexico quite a bit in those years. your hatred arrogance blinds you to reality. lol you really need to make up your mind miles. just before you calimed to have grown up around high powered politicians and business owners and now you are making a very different claim. why was it that you lived in mexico was that a summer place and if so i still doubt that you delt with the truly poor. lol sorry miles but you really dont have a clue. im sure that in the areas that you hung out in mexico many of the people there are happy but that does not make it the whole country. never said it did. but you paint a picture of a country in dire straights of poverty and filth and its nothing of the sort. you are vastly mistaken if you feel the majority of mexicans are dirt poor starving and miserable. the majority no but with over 40% at or below the poverty level there are a large number that live exactly that way. if this were not the case then we would not be having the problems that we now are. the reason miles is that they didnt have the privilege to go to school as for many there were no schools in the area those are the remote villages with very small populations. thats not the majority of mexico you claim are miserable. even in those villages not everyone is miserable. many despise the cities where jobs and to you better living standards exist. some want the remote simple old fashioned village life. why do you feel the need to constantly spin. please give me even one ling to where i said everyone was miserable. lol nobody ever said that everyone in mexico wanted to leave miles. but with over 40% at or below the poverty line so 40% must be miserable huh did i actually say that nope that is just more of your creative editing but i would say that most if them are not happy with their situation the usa has about 15% living below the poverty level. however most at around the poverty level have a home car tv a/c and more. and once again you dont know wtf you are talking about although i do see the word play here. how typically right wing of you. sorry miles but thats how any company stays in business and every manager does or at least tries to do that and no matter how much tech you have without skilled hard working people you will still go under so it seems that your employees are investing the same amount as you do. wtf are you talking about there you go again thinking that someone who starts and runs a company should make no more return on their investment than the door greeter at walmart. after all that greeter invested the same amount according to you. what is this thing that you have with walmart door greeters you do realise that the walmart door greeter is actually part of their security system right nobody is saying that a walmart door greeter should make as much as the store manager or even a department manager but if they are not maing enough to pay the bills why bother to do it at all ya lets all live in a world where everything is equal no rich no poor everyone taken care of. actually i believe that they call that heaven. dont you believe miles or would you just rather not got there why is it then that they unlike you get nothing more than a paycheck if you invest then you should get a return right miles returns on investment comes with taking risk. generally the higher youre willing to risk then the higher the return on your investment. nobody is arguing that miles but you have yet to define how much is enough. an employee isnt taking the same risk as someone who puts their own paycheck back into the company. that is not always true. many employees work for these companies during their early stages and sometimes dont get paid every week and if the company goes under they lost their time and job and in todays market that is a real risk. there also comes the time where the person starting the company is no longer putting their own paycheck back into the company and once that point is reached they are at no more risk than any other worker. if they decide to go elsewhere what do they loose and if they decise to stay with what you believe what do they gain if an investor walks away they loose everything they invested. they take a higher risk. lol why would they do that yawn your spin is really getting old. i didnt say that the receptionist could or should manage the company. what i said was that just

From : miles

tbone wrote the usa has about 15% living below the poverty level. however most at around the poverty level have a home car tv a/c and more. and once again you dont know wtf you are talking about although i do see the word play here. how typically right wing of you. word play huh i stated a fact. most in the usa around the poverty level do indeed have a home car tv a/c and more. deal with it. returns on investment comes with taking risk. generally the higher youre willing to risk then the higher the return on your investment. nobody is arguing that miles but you have yet to define how much is enough. you certainly are arguing that issue exactly. you say employees should get the same return on their investment as the owners. sorry but employees are not taking anywheres near the risks that the employees are. higher risk higher returns. plain and simple except for the simple minded. that is not always true. many employees work for these companies during their early stages and sometimes dont get paid every week and if the company goes under they lost their time and job the owner probably lost everything they owned if the company was in its early stages. the owner almost always has far more of a risk than any employee. and if they decide to stay with what you believe what do they gain a job and the benefits it returns paycheck insurance vacations profit sharing retirement plan 401k ss wmc etc. all at the owners expense. if an investor walks away they loose everything they invested. they take a higher risk. lol why would they do that why because owners of new businesses very likely do put a huge amount of their own assets to start it and sustain it until it sustains itself. they take enormous risks despite your claims they dont. like me huh i pay well above market value and give well above average raises and benefits. tell me tom how much should the walmart door greeter type unskilled job earn $10/hr 20 30 what tom name it without being vague or generalizing. back to the walmart door greeter huh how can anyone be specific miles when there are walmarts all over the country and even in other countries. figures you cant answer a simple question. you complain all workers should make a living wage. how much should an unskilled entry job such as a door greeter make...ok specifically where you live. how much should a walmart door greeter make where you live $10 $20 $30/hr what tom...name it....or just be vague and not answer and complain about business owners instead. a living wage is whatever it takes to live in a particular area. i suppose that it could be any one of your above suggestions depending on what area you live in. why do you keep bringing up that walmart greeter. because its a classic example of an unskilled job that you feel should earn a living wage yet refuse to state just how much they should make. you keep saying livable wage but refuse to state how much such a worker should make. tell me in a particular city i dont care....name it tom! you cant but you can whine really good! once again miles you resort to spin. the minimum wage should be based on need and anything above that should be based on ability. so lets make minimum wage $20/hr. would that reduce poverty one bit hell no tom but youll never comprehend why it would not change a thing. lol where did i say that an investment should only return what you put in you did when you told me i was wrong for getting back more from my company than my original investment. you told me that was greed. you arent earning at least 8% on your investments geez tom you need a better investment adviser!! in todays economy returns well above 8% are easy to achieve. lol once again you more than prove that you dont know wtf you are talking about. sucks to be you then tom im earning well above 8% on my stock investments. if youre not then youve got serious financial investment problems you need to deal with rather than whine here! .

From : tbone

employees are not taking anywheres near the risks that the employees are. higher risk higher returns. plain and simple except for the simple minded. sorry miles but you are completely full of shit. once the business returns its initial investment the owner is at no more risk than any other employee if it fails. that is not always true. many employees work for these companies during their early stages and sometimes dont get paid every week and if the company goes under they lost their time and job the owner probably lost everything they owned if the company was in its early stages. the owner almost always has far more of a risk than any employee. here we go with that maybe / probably / almost bullshit again. to follow your rules miles it either is or it isnt. how about the ones that work for public companies what risk do their ceos have for the money they make i know that you like to fall back to the starting small business owner to back up your bullshit but that is a small number of people. even you dont fit there anymore as your company is established and if it were to fold tomorrow you would be no worse off than any of your employees. actually you would be better off with your much higher salary and double digit lol returns on your investments that you paid yourself more than enough money to make. and if they decide to stay with what you believe what do they gain a job and the benefits it returns paycheck insurance vacations profit sharing retirement plan 401k ss wmc etc. all at the owners expense. lol yea sure. first of all any of these expenses are at the business expense not the owners and not all companies are individually owned. second with the amount of uninsured worker here in the us i would hardly use that a benefit for most and many of the ones that do have insurance are fairly underinsured. 401k sounds good but in reality unless you are willing to pay your workers enough where they can afford to contribute to them they mean nothing. as for ss that is a requirement by the gubberment and if not probably wouldnt be done. retirement plans usually means a pension of some type and where you have takes care of yourself very well there do you offer the same for your employees if an investor walks away they loose everything they invested. they take a higher risk. lol why would they do that why because owners of new businesses very likely do put a huge amount of their own assets to start it and sustain it until it sustains itself. they take enormous risks despite your claims they dont. once again miles you dont answer the question and resort to your typical spin so ill ask again why would they just walk away like me huh i pay well above market value and give well above average raises and benefits. tell me tom how much should the walmart door greeter type unskilled job earn $10/hr 20 30 what tom name it without being vague or generalizing. back to the walmart door greeter huh how can anyone be specific miles when there are walmarts all over the country and even in other countries. figures you cant answer a simple question. nobody could answer that general of a question miles and you know that. you complain all workers should make a living wage. not all but for a full time job hiring adults yes. how much should an unskilled entry job such as a door greeter make...ok specifically where you live. how much should a walmart door greeter make where you live $10 $20 $30/hr what tom...name it....or just be vague and not answer and complain about business owners instead. around the area where i live probably between $12 to $15 an hour could get a single person by without worring if they will be able to eat and stay warm. a living wage is whatever it takes to live in a particular area. i suppose that it could be any one of your above suggestions depending on what area you live in. why do you keep bringing up that walmart greeter. because its a classic example of an unskilled job that you feel should earn a living wage yet refuse to state just how much they should make. you keep saying livable wage but refuse to state how much such a worker should make. tell me in a particular city i dont care....name it tom! you cant but you can whine really good! well here i would say it would take between $12 to $15 and hour and that would be far from luxury living but would put food on the table in a nice although small 1 bdrm apartment. the point is miles if the job isnt worth making a living then why does it exist once again miles you resort to spin. the minimum wage should be based on need and anything above that should be based on ability. so lets make minimum wage $20/hr. would that reduce poverty one bit hell no tom but youll never comprehend why it would not change a thing. sure i do miles because greedy pricks like yourself will just jack the prices on

From : miles

tbone wrote sorry miles but you are completely full of shit. once the business returns its initial investment the owner is at no more risk than any other employee if it fails. now i understand why your own business endevors havent led to anything major. most business owners continue to roll their own money back into the company again and again. if the company begins to struggle due to market issues or whatever the owner most certainly will scrape anything they have to build it back up and keep it running. when a company fails the owner usually fails with it whether you think so or not. here we go with that maybe / probably / almost bullshit again. to follow your rules miles it either is or it isnt. bull. no two situations are exactly the same. you have stated that once a business returns the original investment then theres no more risk to the owner than the employee. you state it as if thats all cases. its not even most cases except in your version devoid of reality. what risk do their ceos have for the money they make what in a public company or any other the ceos dont necessarily own the company. they are an employee who may have some ownership. if a company fails the major owners will most likely fail with it. the larger the corporation the more diversified the ownership is in most cases. even you dont fit there anymore as your company is established and if it were to fold tomorrow you would be no worse off than any of your employees. wtf are you rambling about if my company folded tomorrow i certainly would lose most of what i own with it. if it starts sinking i most certainly will pour whatever funds i have tied to my own personal property if i felt it would allow it to survive. i would also use my own private funds to make last payrolls etc. i would be the last one paid. employees would be first. i realize in your world of hate you cant comprehend that concept. lol yea sure. first of all any of these expenses are at the business expense not the owners bull. any money left in the business is the owners. theres two places for it. the owners pocket or retained earnings put back into the company. all expenses are that of the owners for every penny they spend is that much less they have for themselves or to put into the company. around the area where i live probably between $12 to $15 an hour could get a single person by without worring if they will be able to eat and stay warm. so a totally unskilled job should pay $12-$15 an hour that would also push up wages of other jobs above that. which in turn will shove prices up. the net result is that the poverty level would remain largely unchanged. i realize you disagree but salaries above market value would do nothing more than raise the market value of goods to match. well here i would say it would take between $12 to $15 and hour and that would be far from luxury living but would put food on the table in a nice although small 1 bdrm apartment. the point is miles if the job isnt worth making a living then why does it exist because there are people who need a place to start and work their way up. same reason part time jobs exist. sure i do miles because greedy pricks like yourself will just jack the prices on everything rather than giving up a penny of your own income. lol always blame employers for all of your problems. ah yes the perfect world where the government sets wages and prices of goods. go move to a country where that very thing exists and then tell me how great it is. .

From : tbone

tbone wrote sorry miles but you are completely full of shit. once the business returns its initial investment the owner is at no more risk than any other employee if it fails. now i understand why your own business endevors havent led to anything major. most business owners continue to roll their own money back into the company again and again. if the company begins to struggle due to market issues or whatever the owner most certainly will scrape anything they have to build it back up and keep it running. when a company fails the owner usually fails with it whether you think so or not. you have no idea how any of my businesses have done miles but i see you are back to the half-truths again. unless you are an idiot you should have incorporated by now even if it is just an llc. the minute that you do that the corp becomes its own identity and the money it makes belongs to the business not you. sure you may own it and control where the money goes but the money is part of the business so in reality you are investing the businesses money back into it not yours. as for investing your own money back into the business if it gets into trouble thats a whole different issue. if the business gets into trouble thats most likely your fault as you are the one running it and if you dump your own money back into it without knowing what went wrong and being sure that you can correct the problem then you are an idiot and deserve to lose it all. i had one business fail and had a few friends lose a business or two as well and we are all just fine miles. the trick is to know when the ship is sinking and if you cannot save it which sometimes happens to get out gracefully and minimize losses. here we go with that maybe / probably / almost bullshit again. to follow your rules miles it either is or it isnt. bull. no two situations are exactly the same. and the same goes for salaries as well miles but then you just dont want to hear it and think that i can simply rattle off a cure all salary. you have stated that once a business returns the original investment then theres no more risk to the owner than the employee. you state it as if thats all cases. its not even most cases except in your version devoid of reality. sorry miles but as usual you are wrong. do you really own anything what risk do their ceos have for the money they make what in a public company or any other the ceos dont necessarily own the company. thanks for repeating what i already said and with that please justify the huge salaries that they make since they are truly just employees and at no more risk than any other. they are an employee who may have some ownership. if a company fails the major owners will most likely fail with it. the larger the corporation the more diversified the ownership is in most cases. where do you come up with this crap sure that may be the case for a tiny mom and pop but they tend not to be all that rich either. i am talking about larger businesses that employ more than 10 people. even you dont fit there anymore as your company is established and if it were to fold tomorrow you would be no worse off than any of your employees. wtf are you rambling about if my company folded tomorrow i certainly would lose most of what i own with it. then you are either an idiot or does your company own most of your assets so that you can minimise your tax liability if it starts sinking i most certainly will pour whatever funds i have tied to my own personal property if i felt it would allow it to survive. then you would be re-investing in your company and so would any employee that didnt jump ship when and if they get the chance because with the current job market they would also be risking their home and livelihoods should they become unemployed. but what would you do if you knew early on that you couldnt save it i doubt that you would let it drain you and if you had half a brain you would take a loan on the companies assets to try and save it. i would also use my own private funds to make last payrolls etc. i would be the last one paid. employees would be first. i realize in your world of hate you cant comprehend that concept. perhaps because that is an act of desperation and stupidity. lol yea sure. first of all any of these expenses are at the business expense not the owners bull. any money left in the business is the owners. theres two places for it. the owners pocket or retained earnings put back into the company. all expenses are that of the owners for every penny they spend is that much less they have for themselves or to put into the company. lol not really. if it is a corp of any type the money is the businesses under control of its officers. the owner/officer takes a salary just like any other employee along with bonuses and whatever other crap they choose to use to get the most money w

From : miles

tbone wrote unless you are an idiot you should have incorporated by now even if it is just an llc. the minute that you do that the corp becomes its own identity and the money it makes belongs to the business not you. youre talking only about ones legal liability if a company fails. where your logic becomes absurd is what happens when the company is cash strapped. the owner has a few choices. fold up shop or use their own funds to build it back up or sell. most will put their own funds into it just as they did when they first started the business. if the business gets into trouble thats most likely your fault as you are the one running it and if you dump your own money back into it without knowing what went wrong and being sure that you can correct the problem then you are an idiot and deserve to lose it all. wtf are you rambling about a company could need the use of more funds than it has available for a variety of reasons. who knows. it could be doing quite well or going slow due to the economy or whatever. if changes are in order for whatever reason then cash is needed. the owner may wish to make greater changes than the company has in retained earnings. thanks for repeating what i already said and with that please justify the huge salaries that they make since they are truly just employees and at no more risk than any other. i have no idea nor do i necessarily feel their salaries are justified. i agree with you that in some cases they seem absurd. ask the owners why they pay them so much not me. however you seem to base your entire belief on business economics on what a very few select large corporate ceos earn which are only gross examples and not representative. where do you come up with this crap sure that may be the case for a tiny mom and pop but they tend not to be all that rich either. i am talking about larger businesses that employ more than 10 people. more than 10 huh my company has about 125 employees. most of your rhetoric seems to apply to a very few huge conglomerate corporations that make the mainstream rounds. then you are either an idiot or does your company own most of your assets so that you can minimise your tax liability oh geez. youre clueless tbone. you fail to realize that most owners will in fact do what it takes to keep their business their dream their life afloat. you feel owners just routinely close up shop when the going gets rough. some might most do not. they believe in their company as its their lifes work and more than just $s. a concept your hatred seems to fail at. then you would be re-investing in your company and so would any employee that didnt jump ship huh if i dump a few $100000 into my company to re-invest and the employees continue working the risk is identical if it fails im out a few 100 grand. the employee wont risk anywheres near that much. besides the owners work far more hours than the typical 40 hour week. try nights weekends holidays. whatever it takes. perhaps because that is an act of desperation and stupidity. paying employees before myself is an act of desperation and stupidity if thats the liberal compassionate way of viewing such acts then im glad im not one! why miles because the rich execs dont want to give up a penny prices will go up from the mom & pop shops all the way up to the huge corporations. raise costs and everything beneath will go up. in your dream world i guess you wish to control both wages and cost of goods. only with your short sighted right wing greedy viewpoint. nope. its called economics. if more people have money to spend they will spend it. that means a bigger market and more money for everyone but that goes against everything that you believe. you didnt do so good in basic economics class did you call it greed or whatever you want. it doesnt change what happens when consumers have more money. it balances out all the same in the long run. you cant regulate salaries and expect greater buying power. bullshit and just more lame justifications. why should people have to work up to just being able to survive sigh. ya people shouldnt have to learn a skill and work their way up. good grief. i already do as it has happened here and with the way things are going probably will again. sorry but the usa doesnt regulate wages other than minimum wage and a few issues such as ot etc. and it only regulates a select few markets. .

From : tbone

tbone wrote unless you are an idiot you should have incorporated by now even if it is just an llc. the minute that you do that the corp becomes its own identity and the money it makes belongs to the business not you. youre talking only about ones legal liability if a company fails. where your logic becomes absurd is what happens when the company is cash strapped. the owner has a few choices. fold up shop or use their own funds to build it back up or sell. most will put their own funds into it just as they did when they first started the business. here we go again with you putting your feelings as what most will do. if the business gets into trouble thats most likely your fault as you are the one running it and if you dump your own money back into it without knowing what went wrong and being sure that you can correct the problem then you are an idiot and deserve to lose it all. wtf are you rambling about a company could need the use of more funds than it has available for a variety of reasons. who knows. it could be doing quite well or going slow due to the economy or whatever. if changes are in order for whatever reason then cash is needed. the owner may wish to make greater changes than the company has in retained earnings. even in your above example unless the company is very small like a mom and pop if the owner can afford to dump this much money into the company and the company itself cannot afford to do it then the owner is being greedy and paying themself way to much. a well run company should have that cash on hand or be able to get it if needed. thanks for repeating what i already said and with that please justify the huge salaries that they make since they are truly just employees and at no more risk than any other. i have no idea nor do i necessarily feel their salaries are justified. i agree with you that in some cases they seem absurd. ask the owners why they pay them so much not me. however you seem to base your entire belief on business economics on what a very few select large corporate ceos earn which are only gross examples and not representative. that is simply not true miles but even there these few huge companies tend to be the ones that employ the masses. where do you come up with this crap sure that may be the case for a tiny mom and pop but they tend not to be all that rich either. i am talking about larger businesses that employ more than 10 people. more than 10 huh my company has about 125 employees. most of your rhetoric seems to apply to a very few huge conglomerate corporations that make the mainstream rounds. how is that miles you also talk about investing 100s of thousands into your company and yet your staring wage is below what someone would need to survive. then you are either an idiot or does your company own most of your assets so that you can minimise your tax liability oh geez. youre clueless tbone. you fail to realize that most owners will in fact do what it takes to keep their business their dream their life afloat. you feel owners just routinely close up shop when the going gets rough. some might most do not. they believe in their company as its their lifes work and more than just $s. a concept your hatred seems to fail at. and as said before miles as with you and many like you it is a matter of control which is the same reason that you and many like you make the starting wage way below what most need to even survive. you like to maintain that control over them. as for closing up shop if the company gets big enough most owners short of the greedy ones could afford to return enough money back to the company to supply it with enough funds to save it and it would be up to the ones controlling it to come up with a way to use the companies assets to generate the required funds. then you would be re-investing in your company and so would any employee that didnt jump ship huh if i dump a few $100000 into my company to re-invest and the employees continue working the risk is identical if it fails im out a few 100 grand. the employee wont risk anywheres near that much. besides the owners work far more hours than the typical 40 hour week. try nights weekends holidays. whatever it takes. here is the big question miles when you say that you dump a few hundred grand back into the company are you talking company funds or money out of your personal bank account perhaps because that is an act of desperation and stupidity. paying employees before myself is an act of desperation and stupidity if thats the liberal compassionate way of viewing such acts then im glad im not one! paying your employees before yourself is a good thing miles. running the company down to the level that it cannot afford payroll is whats stupid and desperate. why miles because the rich execs dont want to give up a penny prices will go up from t

From : miles

tbone wrote here we go again with you putting your feelings as what most will do. just as you feel most business owners are greedy bastards who think only for themselves. course you somehow relate that only to republicans that are the greedy bastards! that is simply not true miles but even there these few huge companies tend to be the ones that employ the masses. yes tom it is very true. the absurdly paid ceos you see in the are extreme examples glorified by people like you. they are not in the majority. not even close. how is that miles you also talk about investing 100s of thousands into your company and yet your staring wage is below what someone would need to survive. my company pays well above the going wage. also well above benefits including vacation insurance profit sharing matched 401k contributions and more. if all corporations paid their lowest skilled workers $15-$20/hr it would do nothing to raise their standard of living. ya i know thats because greedy bastards would raise the costs of goods which in turn raise costs not only for consumers but for businesses as well. so go move to a country with regulated wages and prices of goods and tell me how great it is. and as said before miles as with you and many like you it is a matter of control which is the same reason that you and many like you make the starting wage way below what most need to even survive. you like to maintain that control over them. lol geez your hatred of all business owners is showing in extreme ways! now start talking about the controlling liberals with their oppressive social programs. ya they just want to help and has nothing to do with power right go figure. here is the big question miles when you say that you dump a few hundred grand back into the company are you talking company funds or money out of your personal bank account both. if the company needs more funds than it has available either liquid or not then it borrows. if it borrows more than it has in equitable assets then somethings gotta give. usually the owner takes the risk to back the loans. large corporations are not what were talking about here tom. those are extreme examples where the company isnt owned by a single owner nor even a few owners. in those few cases the risks are split up. paying your employees before yourself is a good thing miles. running the company down to the level that it cannot afford payroll is whats stupid and desperate. geez tom youre clueless! most businesses have good years and bad. take large construction companies. they work on about a 4-8% profit margin on a multi-million $ job. they build by turning over the profits from one job to fund another with a bank backing it up. one slow growth year for an area will certainly cause such a scenario. any funds the company has are tied up with projects that are in progress. bad business practice to you perhaps. if an employee is making x dollars a month but is only working at 50% capability is given a 20% increase in wages sorry tom but a salary wage is earned by being productive. a worker thats says they know they suck do lousy work but ask for more pay and then theyll do better is worthless. the same goes for a company that fails to recognize quality workers and pay them well. those companies often loose their good employees to the competition. once again you more than prove that you really dont know wtf you are talking about. ok tom you win. tell me what country regulates wages where it has raised the standard of living through increased buying power. sorry but the usa doesnt regulate wages other than minimum wage and a few issues such as ot etc. and it only regulates a select few markets. like i said many times miles crack open a history book and get back to me. huh go ahead tom. explain how the usa regulates wages other than what i stated and how it has increase the buying power and lowered poverty. .