latest T-boner-ism: weight = force, without mass
From : transurgeon
Q: lol while true it still doesnt change the fact that helium has no weight. it does have mass and it also has an atomic weight but as far as actual weight goes it has n o n e. http//education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele002.html read the third paragraph where it says that helium is not gravitationally bound to the earth. why do you think that is steam isnt gravitationally bound to the earth either but water definitly weighs something and sticks pretty damn close to the earths surface if not laying directly on it. i bet a vessel full of liquid helium drops like a rock. blimps and hot air balloons fall into the category of lighter than air aircraft. they do indeed have weight which is supported by the pressure of the air surrounding the gas filled envelope. which means that they have no weight in respect to the air around them. what part of lighter than dont you get ooops sorry apparently all of it. -- max give a man a match and he is warm for a short while. light him on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life. .
Replies:
From : tbone
if you applied power directly to the fan motor and it didnt spin then it is bad. ok. i wasnt sure if there was some circuitry inside the fan itself which only allowed it to turn on when hotetc. it doesnt appear to be the case but wasnt 100% sure. thanks .
From : tom lawrence
steam is also lighter than air but its no different it has weight just like helium and just as air does. funny... a concept so simple i didnt think to question him on it till you brought it up. i wonder where he thinks atmospheric pressure comes from in the first place i mean - somethings gotta weigh something to generate that 14.7 pounds per square inch... lol it is nothing more than the definition of weight and weightless. if we go by your hard-line definition of weight as the attraction between two separate bodies gravity then you have proven yourself wrong on your freefall theory because that force gravityexists free-falling or not. i find that definition of weight as meaningless because it serves no purpose but is good to hide behind when you are afraid to think outside of the box. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .
From : tom lawrence
wrong what you have measured is the force being applied by the water to make the ice weightless. fine. why arent you weightless when standing on your bathroom scale i mean all youre really measuring is the force being applied by the scale to hold you up right and when you grab that 5lb. dumbell insert your own joke here people and the scale goes up by 5lbs. is that because the dumbell weighs 5lbs. or is that because the dumbell is weightless and youre just exerting 5lbs. of force to hold it up well really its the scale exerting 5 more lbs. of force to hold you and your dumbell up. .
From : max dodge
perhaps because they choose not to name this condition in the fsm or maybe it is an unexpected condition that happens enough to be given a name. if these things didnt happen then there would be no need for any tsbs. the fsm is specific as to the operation of the trans and its solenoids. no limp home mode is described. if it is an unexpected condition then its not an operating mode of the pcm but an unexpected condition. -- max give a man a match and he is warm for a short while. light him on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life. if you think about it for a minute youll realize that the whole idea behind tsbs is to disseminate info not contained in the service manual. if the limp mode/limp-in mode were addressed in the fsm there would be no need to rehash it in a tsb. if you think for a moment after reading the fsm and the complete description of operation you might also come to the conclusion that there is no limp home mode. this is because it specifically details what the pcm is capable of doing. perhaps because they choose not to name this condition in the fsm or maybe it is an unexpected condition that happens enough to be given a name. if these things didnt happen then there would be no need for any tsbs. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .
From : max dodge
jack up the front wheels remove the two big bolts that hold the steering rack to the frame sigh...if jacking it up was an option that would be helpful...; shifting sand is all ive got... not quite clear on what you mean by steering rack...the shaft is sort of in the way i thought about unhooking it at the gearbox end... cricket then you can scoot the rack to one side so the steering shaft is out of the way attack from top okay its hot my dearly beloved not so much just now... tore down the shop so theres no place to work on this thing on level ground and im short...all of which is relevant *because*... i cant reach the damn thing! from the bottom i cant get at it without three extra joints in my arm no safe way to jack it up anyway. from the top i just cant reach period. obviously this is looking like a major project and i dont want to spend two hours dicking around with it only to find out that its absolutely impossible to get at from above/below and has to be attacked all over from the other way. so...anybody done one of these lately and if so any secret to getting at the damn thing ive done three s-10 blazer starters in the last four years and i cant believe i cussed about them...theyre a piece of cake when compared to this beast...; cricket .
From : tbone
go back to the ice cube in the glass of water... exact same principle. tell me how the ice cube is weightless. the ice cube is weightless in the water as it is floating . the glass of water will weigh more because you have increased the mass contained within the glass. there is no magic here. weigh the glass of water insert the ice cube into the glass of water weigh the glass of water + ice cube then tell us the results.......................... i already said that the glass would weight more. i guess that reading just isnt your thing. now weigh the ice cube while it is floating in the glass and tell us the results. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .
From : tbone
are you saying that an airplane in the air weighs less than it does on the ground then you can add to that the fact if it is actually flying there is a force being applied to it that is negating the force of gravity the fact that an aircraft is supported by the application of bernoullis principle does absolutely nothing to lessen the force of gravity on the mass of the airplane. and i never said that it did. yes there is another force actually the same gravitational force that tries to pull the plane down is the same force that keeps it in the air do you care to explain this thats working against the force of gravity but that doesnt mean the gravitational force no longer exists. again i never said that it did but if the force is opposed by another force with equal intensity and in the opposite direction the acceleration due to those forces becomes zero and then so does the weight by definition. just as if i took one end of a rope and you the other and we pulled against each other. if you pulled me forward that doesnt mean i wasnt pulling against you - just that you exerted more force than i did. correct but the two forces working against each other regardless of which one is stronger affects the acceleration and direction of the net force. weight. now i realize that this is an abstract thought process which seems hard for most of you to understand but it still is what it is. look up forces and vectors in a high school physics book... this is exactly whats being discussed here. that is correct but if you have two forces pulling in opposite directions the net force is the difference between them. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .
From : miles
driving along on the freeway with cruise set at 70mph. abs and brake light comes on then after one second the air bag then check engine light comes on. next speedo goes out and although does displaying mileage not increasing. next ac and blower stop. try turn signals and brakes and all other things like rev counter power windows sunroof and mirrors all work. pull over turn off engine and wait one minute. start up and everything works with no warning lights except check engine light which seems to come on randomly anyway. drive home around 70 miles and stop to get gas. start engine and this time check engine light goes out. seems like some sort of electronic or electric short since only somethings stop working. has anyone else had this problem anyone know what is wrong taken it in for both problems tomorrow and hope there is a fix. i have also had the engine stall on me at very low speed think goodness or else i would probably not be here. thanks .
From : max dodge
wrong what you have measured is the force being applied by the water to make the ice weightless. you do remember that equal and opposite reaction law of forces dont you to measure the weight of the ice cube you need to take a reading directly from the ice at its present conditions. um yeah in a way since the force applied by the water to make the ice float is the same as what the ice weighs. btw sitting the glass of water with an ice cube in it is taking a measure of the ice cubes weight under those conditions. it cant but i can see that you are far too simple minded to understand it. btw you were still wrong on your cylinder has the same volume regardless of the position of the piston bs but nice spin to get away from that point im impressed. no no im im pressed. i never thought you could get so spin happy thick headed as to claim anything was weightless. if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving btw given your theories on weight i think if i were you id stay on the ground. -- max give a man a match and he is warm for a short while. light him on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life. .
From : christopher thompson
you cant convince me because 90% of the time you are wrong. helium is weightless on this planet because the forces pushing it away from the surface are greater than gravity trying to pull it back. weight is a measurement of force toward the planet not the objects mass. so a ship on the atlantic is weightless because the forces pushing it away from the ocean floor earth are greater than the gravity trying to pull it back. ok no matter how a tried to keep from arguing these i just cant leave this one any longer.... helium is weightless on this planet because the forces pushing it away from the surface are greater than gravity trying to pull it back. thats his statement right ok then! go pick up a 75 lb bar bell.....the force you are excerting on the bar bell is exceeding that of gravity. yet your arms will get tired after holding the bar bell for a while......now! why would that be its weightless right .
From : max dodge
and if it has mass it has another sort of weight. wrong. lol you forgot weight = mass x acceleration of gravity you have now announced that nothing with mass has weight. transportation engineers are now scrambling to capitalize on this theory right weight is a measurement of downward force and if something has no measurable downward force under a set of conditions then it has no weight under those conditions. that is the difference between weight and mass. just as you cannot measure an aircrafts weight while it is flying/floating you cannot measure the weight of helium while it is flying/floating. but that does not mean it is weightless. no what im seeing is you spin once again because you got called on your bs and have no other way out. gaseous helium is not always weightless but on this planet in our atmosphere it is. even on the moon which has no definable atmosphere the gravitaitional force of the moon cannot hold it to the surface so it is for the most part weightless there too. well thats two stupid answers. gaseous helium has weight since it has mass and will be accelerated by gravity once it is displaced by the heavier atmosphere. as to no helium on the moon..... http//www.yfiles.com/helium3.htm they seem to thinmk there is one helluva lot of it there. you cant convince me because 90% of the time you are wrong. helium is weightless on this planet because the forces pushing it away from the surface are greater than gravity trying to pull it back. weight is a measurement of force toward the planet not the objects mass. so a ship on the atlantic is weightless because the forces pushing it away from the ocean floor earth are greater than the gravity trying to pull it back. there are no forces pushing it farther from the surface of the planet. then why does it rise because the heavier portions of the atmosphere are displacing it. sorta like i said right here its very simple something heavier is displacing it lol anf the only way something can be displaced moved out of the way is by a force. no force no movement. the force of gravity is acting on the heavier air just as it acts on the helium. sorta like i said right here because that heavier gas is being pulled by gravity just like helium is. yep but the hevier gasses are being pulled harder and their mass is pushing the helium up and away effectivly negating the force of gravity the one force that gives something weight and if this force is overpowered the weight must be zero or less. so a ball thrown through the air is weightless same theory makes a ship float on water. the ship is less dense than the water by virtue of the fact that its full of air so it floats on the water. yep which makes it buoyant or weightless while it is floating in the water so they are lying when they refer to a ship so many tons because the water is supplying enough upward force to cancel out the force of gravity. if it could not do that the ship would sink fall to the bottom. hint nothing cancels the force of earths gravity except going out beyond the moon to get away from the earth. -- max give a man a match and he is warm for a short while. light him on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life. exactly. and helium has an atomic weight as well. so no matter how ya cut it helium isnt weightless like you claim.. lol is there a reason why consistantly make an ass out of yourself. atomic weight is not the same thing as actual weight you do know that dont you im well aware that its different but you claim its weightless. well if it has an atomic weight then it has one form of weight. lol the fact that you just said this shows that you really dont have a clue. and if it has mass it has another sort of weight. wrong. but youve claimed it has no weight. so i figured id better cover all bases here and see if you were talking atomic weight not actual weight. apparently not. so you are saying that helium has no actual weight. and thats wrong. weight is a measurement of downward force and if something has no measurable downward force under a set of conditions then it has no weight under those conditions. that is the difference between weight and mass. i know hte answer but you obviously dont considering that you think helium has no weight in its gaseous state. if you knew the answer you would have said it. iow you dont have a clue. helium has no weight in its uncompressed gaseous state on this planet because the density of the air that makes up our atmosphere applies more upward force to the gas than gravity can supply to pull it down. since weight is a net force in a downward direction if the forces going the other way are stronger you simply have no actual weight. um i guess you havent figured out that im asking stupid questions to see how stupid an answer you will give. see you think
From : tbone
i dont recall water vapor supporting any type of ship never mind an aircraft carrier. if it could there would be no reason for dry-dock. now water itself is a liquid while vapor is a gas you do know that right yeah but you seem confused by it. actually no you are the one that seems confused. see youve just said that water vapor steam has weight because it water. water vapor and steam are not exactly the same thing. do you know the difference yet that water vapor will rise through the air particularly if its heated and is steam. water vapor disperses through the air and may be considered weightless however i dont recall many ships sailing in vapor do you helium is actually lighter than air and that alone makes it different.. its the same with helium which you seem to think acts totally differently as a gas than water does as a gas. if water vapor gaseous water has weight then so does gaseous helium. lol steam usually has liquid water in mechanical suspension and that makes it heavier than air. put liquid helium on any scale under normal atmospheric conditions and it will have weight. put helium gas on that scale under the same conditions and it will show nothing at all. ive simply taken your theory about helium gas and applied it to another elements as a gas and shown how your theory doesnt work. no you didnt because water vapor can be and is part of the atmosphere and helium is not. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .
From : tom lawrence
the point is that if you did not know the mass or weight of the aircraft at rest there would be no scale in the world that could give you the weight to calculate the mass while the plane is in level flight because while in level flight the plane has no weight. and here i thought it was because you could not get the scale to stick to the underside of an airplane going better than mach 1. -- max give a man a match and he is warm for a short while. light him on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life. tbone wrote of course it does. the farther you get away from the planet the lower the force of gravity acting on it is. then you can add to that the fact if it is actually flying there is a force being applied to it that is negating the force of gravity so in relation to the ground the airplane has no weight. now i realize that this is an abstract thought process which seems hard for most of you to understand but it still is what it is. the airplane is exerting a downword force equal to the airplanes weight onto the air that supports it. thats a concept that you dont seem to comprehend. actually if the aircraft is climbing the force being exerted upward is greater than the planes weight and i am fully aware of this. the point is that weight a measurement of the net downward force of some mass and if the forces pushing it back up is greater than the force pulling it down exactly how much weight do you have the point is that if you did not know the mass or weight of the aircraft at rest there would be no scale in the world that could give you the weight to calculate the mass while the plane is in level flight because while in level flight the plane has no weight. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .
From : christopher thompson
weight is a measurement of downward force and if something has no measurable downward force under a set of conditions then it has no weight under those conditions. that is the difference between weight and mass. weight is a measure of gravity on a mass. period. youre big on definitions - try this one http//dictionary.reference.com/searchq=weight the force with which a body is attracted to earth ... the product of the objects mass and the acceleration of gravity * okay... now start in with the yeah buts and the downward forces and everything else to deny this simple fact just because something floats in the atmosphere does not mean its weightless. * actually to be entirely correct this should read as the inverse of the objects acceleration - as an object accelerating at the rate of 1g has no weight... but an object accelerating at the rate of -1g ie going against gravity at 32ft./s2 weighs twice as much. .
From : tom lawrence
i had the dealer do the throttle body and injectors cleaned because of a rough idle. how long should it be before i feel a difference .
From : miles
i dont recall water vapor supporting any type of ship never mind an aircraft carrier. if it could there would be no reason for dry-dock. now water itself is a liquid while vapor is a gas you do know that right yeah but you seem confused by it. see youve just said that water vapor steam has weight because it water. yet that water vapor will rise through the air particularly if its heated and is steam. its the same with helium which you seem to think acts totally differently as a gas than water does as a gas. if water vapor gaseous water has weight then so does gaseous helium. ive simply taken your theory about helium gas and applied it to another elements as a gas and shown how your theory doesnt work. -- max give a man a match and he is warm for a short while. light him on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life. well that might be true if steam always rises but that doesnt always happen and even when it does it usually doesnt go very high so it must be gravitationally bound to the earth after all just like the water it came from. but now that you mention it water vapor has mass but also has no measurable weight since it is floating throughout most of the atmosphere. ok so if water has no weight how exactly is it that it supports a 120000 ton aircraft carrier i dont recall water vapor supporting any type of ship never mind an aircraft carrier. if it could there would be no reason for dry-dock. now water itself is a liquid while vapor is a gas you do know that right you might look up the theory/definition of bouyancy. wait..... dont do that youll only add to your own confusion. i know what it means do you -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .
From : tbone
tbone wrote i dont recall starting off calling any of you names on my first response. now thats funny. qualifying when you call people names. ya thats nice of you to wait till your 2nd response before calling someone names! lol i didnt say that it was my second response either. i do however have enough respect for people that i dont come out of the gate with the name-calling like others do. if it turns to that down the road then so be it. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .
From : beekeep
wait..... does hydrogen weigh anything it has less density than helium so you figure it out. i know but do you how about neon nope neon is heavier atomic weight than both nitrogen and oxygen which make up around 99% of our atmosphere exactly. and helium has an atomic weight as well. so no matter how ya cut it helium isnt weightless like you claim.. if lead were in a gaseous state would it be weightless.... i doubt it. why dont you try it and find out i know hte answer but you obviously dont considering that you think helium has no weight in its gaseous state. wow....... i just cant do this anymore..... what do you mean anymore. like you ever could. youre right i never could convince you of anything thatmade sense youve always stuck to the crap you believe like weightless helium. -- max give a man a match and he is warm for a short while. light him on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life. you really need to work on that comprehention here tom. i think that we can agree that weight is a force and to define it closer a downward force. it is also known that helium gas does not stay in the atmosphere as shown by the link i provided. if the only way out of the atmosphere is up and weight is a force pushing it down it becomes clear that if helium does not stay in the atmosphere it must have no weight. so...... um....... sorry...... im laughing to much.... cant think straight....... ill agree with you on your thought processes but i doubt it has anything to do with laughing. tell me again why steam has weight and helium doesnt where did i say what steam weighs wait..... does hydrogen weigh anything it has less density than helium so you figure it out. how about neon nope neon is heavier atomic weight than both nitrogen and oxygen which make up around 99% of our atmosphere if lead were in a gaseous state would it be weightless.... i doubt it. why dont you try it and find out wow....... i just cant do this anymore..... what do you mean anymore. like you ever could. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .
From : tbone
tbone wrote if this were not true lighter than air aircraft would never leave the ground are you saying that an airplane in the air weighs less than it does on the ground .
From : tom lawrence
transurgeon wrote try weighing a container with a hard vacuum inside then weighing it when its filled with helium braniac thats pretty funny! if something is lighter than air then it weighs nothing! i never knew that! .
From : miles
rock. yep i do believe that i mentioned that as well but we are not talking about liquid helium and if you are please point out a few pools of it that i can check out. blimps and hot air balloons fall into the category of lighter than air aircraft. they do indeed have weight which is supported by the pressure of the air surrounding the gas filled envelope. which means that they have no weight in respect to the air around them. what part of lighter than dont you get ooops sorry apparently all of it. i do get it what about you since we are surrounded by air if something is lighter than air then it has no downward force and therefore no weight. this is the difference between weight and mass maxi mass is what it is but weight can be infinitely variable. hell the farther away you get from the planet and depending on the object at hand the weight could first increase and then decrease to the point of being zero as you get beyond the gravitational pull of the planet. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving . 222 303075 cqlbe.40128$xa.405622@twister.southeast.rr.com it toward the earth it has no weight. helium does not have enough density or atomic weight for the force of gravity on this planet to hold it down so it has no weight here. im stupified here.... do you really believe that helium isnt dense enough for gravity to act on it huh holy shit! in the words of casey kasem... ponderous... fing ponderous.... you really need to work on that comprehention here tom. i think that we can agree that weight is a force and to define it closer a downward force. it is also known that helium gas does not stay in the atmosphere as shown by the link i provided. if the only way out of the atmosphere is up and weight is a force pushing it down it becomes clear that if helium does not stay in the atmosphere it must have no weight. helium doesnt posess any special anti-gravity properties tom... its just that the air around it is more dense and pushes the helium up... just like the oil in salad dressing pushes the vinegar to the top. but if that were all it was then the outer atmosphere would consist of helium and hydrogen and that is not the case. not only is helium so light that it rises to the top gravity has so little grip on it that anything at all can tear it away so for all intents and purposes it has no weight. please explain how matter can have mass but not have weight. given that gravity acts upon all matter i find this concept err... intriguing. because weight is a force and if other forces around it negate it it has no weight take it and your co2 to the moon and neither will have any weight in gaseous form but they will both have the same mass there as they do here or anywhere else in the universe. since there is no atmosphere surrounding the moon both the helium and the co2 will sink to the lunar surface. actually if that were true the moon would have a full atmosphere of its own but its gravitational force is simply not strong enough to hold any gas against the force of the solar winds so in reality it would simply float away no weight. there actually is a reason why the moon has no atmosphere. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .
From : tbone
okay its hot my dearly beloved not so much just now... tore down the shop so theres no place to work on this thing on level ground and im short...all of which is relevant *because*... i cant reach the damn thing! from the bottom i cant get at it without three extra joints in my arm no safe way to jack it up anyway. from the top i just cant reach period. obviously this is looking like a major project and i dont want to spend two hours dicking around with it only to find out that its absolutely impossible to get at from above/below and has to be attacked all over from the other way. so...anybody done one of these lately and if so any secret to getting at the damn thing ive done three s-10 blazer starters in the last four years and i cant believe i cussed about them...theyre a piece of cake when compared to this beast...; cricket .
From : tbone
that could give you the weight to calculate the mass while the plane is in level flight because while in level flight the plane has no weight. go back to the ice cube in the glass of water... exact same principle. tell me how the ice cube is weightless. the ice cube is weightless in the water as it is floating . the glass of water will weigh more because you have increased the mass contained within the glass. there is no magic here. you really need to think outside of the box every now and then. oh... but thats different....... no it isnt. i never said that it was or wasnt different. you really need to stop arguing with yourself. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .
From : miles
lol while true it still doesnt change the fact that helium has no weight. it does have mass and it also has an atomic weight but as far as actual weight goes it has n o n e. http//education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele002.html read the third paragraph where it says that helium is not gravitationally bound to the earth. why do you think that is steam isnt gravitationally bound to the earth either really got proof but water definitly weighs something and sticks pretty damn close to the earths surface if not laying directly on it. i bet a vessel full of liquid helium drops like a rock. yep i do believe that i mentioned that as well but we are not talking about liquid helium and if you are please point out a few pools of it that i can check out. blimps and hot air balloons fall into the category of lighter than air aircraft. they do indeed have weight which is supported by the pressure of the air surrounding the gas filled envelope. which means that they have no weight in respect to the air around them. what part of lighter than dont you get ooops sorry apparently all of it. i do get it what about you since we are surrounded by air if something is lighter than air then it has no downward force and therefore no weight. this is the difference between weight and mass maxi mass is what it is but weight can be infinitely variable. hell the farther away you get from the planet and depending on the object at hand the weight could first increase and then decrease to the point of being zero as you get beyond the gravitational pull of the planet. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .