Will any NV4500 tranny fit into a 99 ram 1500 4x4?

From : rm

Q: what do i need to look for do all manuals fit to the transfer case will my bell housing from my auto fit the manual .

Replies:

From : denny

cmon bro ya gotta help red. anyway see if ya can help the old fart out with his problem maybe collectively we can come up with a solution. roy there it is the we can come up with a solution. i knew all along that ole roy had a piece of the machine. denny .

From : greg o

what do i need to look for do all manuals fit to the transfer case will my bell housing from my auto fit the manual what are you doing you mention a bellhousing from your automatic. are you planing on swaping out an automatic tranny for a manual tranny if so good luck! dont forget shift linkage clutch linkage. bellhousing flywheel clutch and computer controls. if you really want a manual tranny sell your truck and buy one! greg .

From : rm

covered this before. cant sell a truck with no transmission auto broke. it is almost paid for i do not want more payments. truck is already heavily modified. i have talked to several sources and cost would be about the same as a rebuild from shop which would just go out again 40-60k down the line. clutch is hydraulic and holes are already their so no big deal. flywheel bell housing and pedals from junkyard clutch from autozone ecm from somewhere auto shift column can stay put just remove the handle and linkage. it looks as if the 4500 shifts from the top and again the hole in floor is already there.what else do you see to be a problem every one likes to suggest selling your truck but that solution is not always easy or possible. what do i need to look for do all manuals fit to the transfer case will my bell housing from my auto fit the manual what are you doing you mention a bellhousing from your automatic. are you planing on swaping out an automatic tranny for a manual tranny if so good luck! dont forget shift linkage clutch linkage. bellhousing flywheel clutch and computer controls. if you really want a manual tranny sell your truck and buy one! greg .

From : greg o

covered this before. cant sell a truck with no transmission auto broke. it is almost paid for i do not want more payments. truck is already heavily modified. i have talked to several sources and cost would be about the same as a rebuild from shop which would just go out again 40-60k down the line. clutch is hydraulic and holes are already their so no big deal. flywheel bell housing and pedals from junkyard clutch from autozone ecm from somewhere auto shift column can stay put just remove the handle and linkage. it looks as if the 4500 shifts from the top and again the hole in floor is already there.what else do you see to be a problem every one likes to suggest selling your truck but that solution is not always easy or possible. well if it is so easy do it! dont forget a wiring harness and figure in some time and money for the unforeseen to get this hogepoge togather. but i do question your knowledge and then your ability to do this swap when you have to ask if the bell housing from your auto will fit a standard tranny! greg .

From : tbone

covered this before. cant sell a truck with no transmission auto broke. it is almost paid for i do not want more payments. truck is already heavily modified. i have talked to several sources and cost would be about the same as a rebuild from shop which would just go out again 40-60k down the line. clutch is hydraulic and holes are already their so no big deal. flywheel bell housing and pedals from junkyard clutch from autozone ecm from somewhere auto shift column can stay put just remove the handle and linkage. it looks as if the 4500 shifts from the top and again the hole in floor is already there.what else do you see to be a problem every one likes to suggest selling your truck but that solution is not always easy or possible. well if it is so easy do it! dont forget a wiring harness and figure in some time and money for the unforeseen to get this hogepoge togather. but i do question your knowledge and then your ability to do this swap when you have to ask if the bell housing from your auto will fit a standard tranny! greg many people tend not to add the labor costs and aggravationeven if it is their own time and aggravation into the equation. he will soon find that it is not worth the trouble although by then it will be to late. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : rm

as i am a glutton for punishment 1 more question. is there any difference in the tail end of the standard tranny on a 2wd as opposed to a 4wd in other words do they interchange because of the xfer case before i get flamed for lack of technical prowess i have not physically seen any yet and am just asking to save research time. .

From : rm

well if it is so easy do it! dont forget a wiring harness and figure in some time and money for the unforeseen to get this hogepoge togather. i always allow for problems when starting a project. i already learned that the hard way. but i do question your knowledge and then your ability to do this swap i managed to install a body lift 5 suspension lift 3/4 ton axles and custom stereo system myself so i am pretty sure i can handle it when you have to ask if the bell housing from your auto will fit a standard tranny! i havent been able to look under the truck or hunt for a standard due to the heavy rains so i was using an alternate form of research. is that such a bad idea i am sure i would be able to tell by looking if i could right now. a tranny shop on the internet said i might be able to use my existing one which sounded odd to me but it doesnt hurt to ask or so i thought. many people tend not to add the labor costs and aggravationeven if it is their own time and aggravation into the equation. he will soon find that it is not worth the trouble although by then it will be to late. i hate automatics. they go out constantly and are too expensive to repair. there will be little labor cost as i am doing it myself. i was told the axle swap wasnt worth the trouble and it damn sure was. truck has brakes way better than stock now and 4.10 gears to boot. not to mention heavier hubs and ball joints. .

From : mac davistbone

on tue 18 nov 2003 233145 -0600 yonzie dyonz@hotmail.com wrote 20031118112356.01810.00000399@mb-m27.aol.com redneck tookover hell mopar440@aol.comnet.org wrote can you say super ugly vehicle lot of contenders for the title ! ill start watching reality tv shows when i can vote people off the planet. first place for being super ugly would be the pontiac aztek dale is that related to the cheby lost-my-lunch umm.. i mean avalanche... .

From : tbone

yes it is completely different. the 2wd has and extension housing for the main shaft while the 4wd has an adapter housing and probably a different shorter main shaft as well. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving as i am a glutton for punishment 1 more question. is there any difference in the tail end of the standard tranny on a 2wd as opposed to a 4wd in other words do they interchange because of the xfer case before i get flamed for lack of technical prowess i have not physically seen any yet and am just asking to save research time. .

From : tbone

well if it is so easy do it! dont forget a wiring harness and figure in some time and money for the unforeseen to get this hogepoge togather. i always allow for problems when starting a project. i already learned that the hard way. the problem here is that you have no idea of the possible problems that you may run into. but i do question your knowledge and then your ability to do this swap i managed to install a body lift 5 suspension lift 3/4 ton axles and custom stereo system myself so i am pretty sure i can handle it these are all mickey mouse jobs compared to the one that you are planning to undertake. when you have to ask if the bell housing from your auto will fit a standard tranny! i havent been able to look under the truck or hunt for a standard due to the heavy rains so i was using an alternate form of research. is that such a bad idea i am sure i would be able to tell by looking if i could right now. a tranny shop on the internet said i might be able to use my existing one which sounded odd to me but it doesnt hurt to ask or so i thought. and this would be your first problem. just looking isnt gonna tell you shit. although they may look the same doesnt mean that a few of the trans mounting bolts might not be in slightly different locations. then there is the small fact of mounting points for the clutch components or access for the hydraulics. many people tend not to add the labor costs and aggravationeven if it is their own time and aggravation into the equation. he will soon find that it is not worth the trouble although by then it will be to late. i hate automatics. then why did you buy one they go out constantly and are too expensive to repair. that is not always true and if properly maintained seem to do quite well. there will be little labor cost as i am doing it myself. then you consider your time worthless i was told the axle swap wasnt worth the trouble and it damn sure was. an axle swap is easy compared to what you are trying to do. truck has brakes way better than stock now and 4.10 gears to boot. not to mention heavier hubs and ball joints. while that may be true what you are now attempting is much harder to do but lets talk about that a little. iirc you have a 1500 4x4 with an automatic. the bell housing for an automatic will probably not be usable with the nv4500 and will need to be replaced. then there is the pilot bushing / bearing that will also probably also need to be replaced since i doubt that a torque converter needs the same thing as a clutch. btw is this a 360 engine with its external balancing either way you need to replace the flex plate and torque converted with a flywheel and the 360 has special needs. now since 1500 and 2500/3500 use different frames and the nv4500 was never offered in the 1500 series there is a chance that the mounting points between a nv3500 and nv4500 are different and that there is no mount available for this trans in the 1500 guess who gets to make one. then lets not forget that you have a 4wd and that just increases the fun. it would say that the chances are pretty good that the nv4500 will not bolt up to the nv231hd transfer case that your truck uses so guess what you will need to replace the transfer case as well with the nv241hd which was also not offered in the 1500 series and now we are back to the possible mounting problems again. while still on the transfer case does yours have the electric shift or the mechanical linkage. what will the one you are replacing it with have and are you ready to make the necessary changes then there is a length issue. i doubt that the length of the trans / transfer case between the current auto and the standard trans are going to be the same so a new set of driveshafts will probably also need to be added to the list. then there is the electrical problems. the automatic does not use the same wiring harness or computer that the standard shift uses. while the wiring harness issue may not be a killer the computer can be. iirc the computer has the vehicle vin number as well as stores the mileage and afaik you cannot legally just drop one in from another vehicle without having it reprogrammed. these things are just a few problems off of the top of my head and im sure that there are more of them to think about. i have to agree with the others on this one. unless this truck has some special value to you i would just repair the automatic it probably would cost less and be much faster than the conversion. then sell the truck and buy one with a 5 speed if that is what you really want. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : redneck tookover hell

ill offer him a $100 for his truck after he starts this little job and gives up on it hell ill give him $200 for the way it sits now without it being screwed up unless this truck has some special value to you i would just repair the automatic it probably would cost less and be much faster than the conversion. then sell the truck and buy one with a 5 speed if that is what you really want. ill start watching reality tv shows when i can vote people off the planet. .

From : denny

bite me. if he is willing to sell it that cheep its mine!!! lol flip you for it you wanna match me or should i match you careful t-bone ole red is selling the machine so ya never know what hes up to... denny .

From : getcigz comgreg o

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From : greg o

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From : tbone

careful t-bone ole red is selling the machine so ya never know what hes up to... denny i am trying to sell it but you and roy wont bid. thats why ive only got a quarter to flip with. now if you guys will put in a decent bid on da machine i can afford the whole truck!!!! g it will take the jaws of life to pry serious money out of tbone and the damn rabbit. hell after a month i think i had them up to 3k on the truck. try $6999.99 and the offer still stands....... plus a 10hp snow blower on my side to keep your driveway clear. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : redneck tookover hell

careful t-bone ole red is selling the machine so ya never know what hes up to... denny i am trying to sell it but you and roy wont bid. thats why ive only got a quarter to flip with. now if you guys will put in a decent bid on da machine i can afford the whole truck!!!! g ill start watching reality tv shows when i can vote people off the planet. .

From : roy

careful t-bone ole red is selling the machine so ya never know what hes up to... denny i am trying to sell it but you and roy wont bid. thats why ive only got a quarter to flip with. now if you guys will put in a decent bid on da machine i can afford the whole truck!!!! g it will take the jaws of life to pry serious money out of tbone and the damn rabbit. hell after a month i think i had them up to 3k on the truck. since you went through the trauma of putting it up for bid it you seem that you have collected quite a following of best friends. perhaps you should reconsider and hook back up to it. gbfg roy ill start watching reality tv shows when i can vote people off the planet. .

From : roy

careful t-bone ole red is selling the machine so ya never know what hes up to... denny i am trying to sell it but you and roy wont bid. thats why ive only got a quarter to flip with. now if you guys will put in a decent bid on da machine i can afford the whole truck!!!! g me and roy are still trying to figure out why youre selling it. a couple of weeks without a good workout and you must be feeling very frustrated. maybe you could just sell time-shares with your west coast buddies denny he has been nastier than usual. he really needs a session. no need for time shares a bunch of them could use it at the same time. serves 5 no waiting. bfg roy .

From : denny

careful t-bone ole red is selling the machine so ya never know what hes up to... denny i am trying to sell it but you and roy wont bid. thats why ive only got a quarter to flip with. now if you guys will put in a decent bid on da machine i can afford the whole truck!!!! g it will take the jaws of life to pry serious money out of tbone and the damn rabbit. hell after a month i think i had them up to 3k on the truck. try $6999.99 and the offer still stands....... the damn rabbit .

From : rm

while that may be true what you are now attempting is much harder to do but lets talk about that a little. iirc you have a 1500 4x4 with an automatic. the bell housing for an automatic will probably not be usable with the nv4500 and will need to be replaced. then there is the pilot bushing / bearing that will also probably also need to be replaced since i doubt that a torque converter needs the same thing as a clutch. btw is this a 360 engine with its external balancing either way you need to replace the flex plate and torque converted with a flywheel and the 360 has special needs. now since 1500 and 2500/3500 use different frames and the nv4500 was never offered in the 1500 series there is a chance that the mounting points between a nv3500 and nv4500 are different and that there is no mount available for this trans in the 1500 guess who gets to make one. then lets not forget that you have a 4wd and that just increases the fun. it would say that the chances are pretty good that the nv4500 will not bolt up to the nv231hd transfer case that your truck uses so guess what you will need to replace the transfer case as well with the nv241hd which was also not offered in the 1500 series and now we are back to the possible mounting problems again. while still on the transfer case does yours have the electric shift or the mechanical linkage. what will the one you are replacing it with have and are you ready to make the necessary changes then there is a length issue. i doubt that the length of the trans / transfer case between the current auto and the standard trans are going to be the same so a new set of driveshafts will probably also need to be added to the list. then there is the electrical problems. the automatic does not use the same wiring harness or computer that the standard shift uses. while the wiring harness issue may not be a killer the computer can be. iirc the computer has the vehicle vin number as well as stores the mileage and afaik you cannot legally just drop one in from another vehicle without having it reprogrammed. this is all i was asking for was a good reason why it wouldnt work as i thought. tbone i appreciate the time it took for you to post this and provide my answer with some detail. i will just fix the damn auto i guess and hope for the best. i dont know why so many people want to be smartasses or give generic answers that dont tell me anything. thanks. another dream crushed! .

From : rm

i hate automatics. then why did you buy one it was all they had in my price range. lack of research on my part. my friends with chevys get a hell of a lot more miles out of their trannys and i expected the same of a dodge. even the service manager told me they are bad. he suggested a dodge truck with chevy engine and ford transmission hopefully as a joke. they go out constantly and are too expensive to repair. that is not always true and if properly maintained seem to do quite well. i changed fluid and filter per the manual and it only has 55k on it. dont know how else to maintain it. there will be little labor cost as i am doing it myself. then you consider your time worthless no but i value money more. i dont like paying people to do what i can do myself. .

From : rm

i am about ready to take it! without the stereo of course. ill offer him a $100 for his truck after he starts this little job and gives up on it hell ill give him $200 for the way it sits now without it being screwed up unless this truck has some special value to you i would just repair the automatic it probably would cost less and be much faster than the conversion. then sell the truck and buy one with a 5 speed if that is what you really want. ill start watching reality tv shows when i can vote people off the planet. .

From : tbone

i hate automatics. then why did you buy one it was all they had in my price range. lack of research on my part. my friends with chevys get a hell of a lot more miles out of their trannys and i expected the same of a dodge. even the service manager told me they are bad. he suggested a dodge truck with chevy engine and ford transmission hopefully as a joke. i know what you mean about the prices but in all honesty the dodge autos are really no worse then the ford or chevys. i suspect that with you body and suspension lifts that you are also running some fairly large tires as well. this puts a real strain on the trans and may be overheating it. they go out constantly and are too expensive to repair. that is not always true and if properly maintained seem to do quite well. i changed fluid and filter per the manual and it only has 55k on it. dont know how else to maintain it. as stated above you may be overheating it. i would suggest two things. first get a good auxiliary trans cooler and install it on your truck and second get a trans temp gauge and install it as well. if you keep your trans cool and change the fluid regularly as you claim to already do it should last much longer the next time around. there will be little labor cost as i am doing it myself. then you consider your time worthless no but i value money more. i dont like paying people to do what i can do myself. i do the same thing but your time is valuable and needs to be considered in any major project. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbonerm

bite me. if he is willing to sell it that cheep its mine!!! -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving ill offer him a $100 for his truck after he starts this little job and gives up on it hell ill give him $200 for the way it sits now without it being screwed up unless this truck has some special value to you i would just repair the automatic it probably would cost less and be much faster than the conversion. then sell the truck and buy one with a 5 speed if that is what you really want. ill start watching reality tv shows when i can vote people off the planet. .

From : rm

i know what you mean about the prices but in all honesty the dodge autos are really no worse then the ford or chevys. i suspect that with you body and suspension lifts that you are also running some fairly large tires as well. this puts a real strain on the trans and may be overheating it. 36/14.50 radial mud terrains. i put 4.10 gears in hoping to alleviate the load. as stated above you may be overheating it. i would suggest two things. first get a good auxiliary trans cooler and install it on your truck and second get a trans temp gauge and install it as well. if you keep your trans cool and change the fluid regularly as you claim to already do it should last much longer the next time around. it has the heavy duty package from the dealer which included a trans cooler. might try the temp gauge though. .

From : redneck tookover hell

bite me. if he is willing to sell it that cheep its mine!!! lol flip you for it you wanna match me or should i match you ill start watching reality tv shows when i can vote people off the planet. .

From : tbonetbonetbone

your welcome. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving thats what i thought a good size trans cooler should do the trick...the temp gauge sounds like a nice little add on. looks like its shopping time for me. thanks alot for your help michael sorry it took me so long to get back to you but i am not a transmission expert and had hoped that one of the trans experts in here would answer your specific questions silly me. i dont know the specific model that your truck uses but i would say that a good trans fluid cooler would defiantly help to protect your rebuild. you might also consider installing a temp gauge on it so that you can better monitor it especially if you do things that could overheat it such as plowing. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving thank you tbone i myself also drive dodge 84 250 4x4 w/ 360 camper special this is my 3rd dodge truck .the ramcharger is my 4th. im just tring to find out more about this paticular transmission. the problem with my trans started in the overdrive unit with the main bearing . it started to break down and metal flakes started to flow around the trannie .you should have seen all the shit built up on the magnet .all the clutchs were black and so was some of the metal parts and gears inside the trans. i believe it was all caused by heat. is it true that the trannie is a 518 was it used in only the model years of 1990-1993 also if i installed a trans fluid cooler would that help keep the overheating of the overdrive unit incheck or is there a better way of protecting my rebuild thanks michael .

From : tbone

ok we will flip for it. heads i win tails you lose - -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving bite me. if he is willing to sell it that cheep its mine!!! lol flip you for it you wanna match me or should i match you ill start watching reality tv shows when i can vote people off the planet. .

From : denny

careful t-bone ole red is selling the machine so ya never know what hes up to... denny i am trying to sell it but you and roy wont bid. thats why ive only got a quarter to flip with. now if you guys will put in a decent bid on da machine i can afford the whole truck!!!! g it will take the jaws of life to pry serious money out of tbone and the damn rabbit. hell after a month i think i had them up to 3k on the truck. try $6999.99 and the offer still stands....... plus a 10hp snow blower on my side to keep your driveway clear. that 10hp snow blower sounds good right now. i gotta figure out how to clear the snow at home now that i sold the truck and the routes. thought about a atv but they are over 5k with a plow. also id be at the bonecrusher each time i used it. i could put a plow on the tahoe for around 3k but then it would lead to doing more than my driveway. also dont want to blow the warranty on it. of course there are always friends that will do it. but ive been there and doing freebies after you have been up all night is a pia. ive always maintained that after being in a truck over 10 hours you shouldnt plow residential property cause that is when the damage happens. also in all honesty i dont like to wait and id much rather do it myself. having said all that ill give ya 40 bucks for the snow blower. and you have the nerve to say that denny and i are cheap lol. no shit!!! i think hes hoarding all his bucks to put in a secret bid on reds machine. he was a lot more mellow and easy to get along with when it was on the east coast. denny .

From : yonzie

denny wddodge@woh.rr.com wrote careful t-bone ole red is selling the machine so ya never know what hes up to... denny i am trying to sell it but you and roy wont bid. thats why ive only got a quarter to flip with. now if you guys will put in a decent bid on da machine i can afford the whole truck!!!! g me and roy are still trying to figure out why youre selling it. a couple of weeks without a good workout and you must be feeling very frustrated. maybe you could just sell time-shares with your west coast buddies denny ha ha thats funny its like trying to get weaned off a milking machine .

From : roy

careful t-bone ole red is selling the machine so ya never know what hes up to... denny i am trying to sell it but you and roy wont bid. thats why ive only got a quarter to flip with. now if you guys will put in a decent bid on da machine i can afford the whole truck!!!! g it will take the jaws of life to pry serious money out of tbone and the damn rabbit. hell after a month i think i had them up to 3k on the truck. try $6999.99 and the offer still stands....... plus a 10hp snow blower on my side to keep your driveway clear. that 10hp snow blower sounds good right now. i gotta figure out how to clear the snow at home now that i sold the truck and the routes. thought about a atv but they are over 5k with a plow. also id be at the bonecrusher each time i used it. i could put a plow on the tahoe for around 3k but then it would lead to doing more than my driveway. also dont want to blow the warranty on it. of course there are always friends that will do it. but ive been there and doing freebies after you have been up all night is a pia. ive always maintained that after being in a truck over 10 hours you shouldnt plow residential property cause that is when the damage happens. also in all honesty i dont like to wait and id much rather do it myself. having said all that ill give ya 40 bucks for the snow blower. roy .

From : tbone

careful t-bone ole red is selling the machine so ya never know what hes up to... denny i am trying to sell it but you and roy wont bid. thats why ive only got a quarter to flip with. now if you guys will put in a decent bid on da machine i can afford the whole truck!!!! g it will take the jaws of life to pry serious money out of tbone and the damn rabbit. hell after a month i think i had them up to 3k on the truck. try $6999.99 and the offer still stands....... plus a 10hp snow blower on my side to keep your driveway clear. that 10hp snow blower sounds good right now. i gotta figure out how to clear the snow at home now that i sold the truck and the routes. thought about a atv but they are over 5k with a plow. also id be at the bonecrusher each time i used it. i could put a plow on the tahoe for around 3k but then it would lead to doing more than my driveway. also dont want to blow the warranty on it. of course there are always friends that will do it. but ive been there and doing freebies after you have been up all night is a pia. ive always maintained that after being in a truck over 10 hours you shouldnt plow residential property cause that is when the damage happens. also in all honesty i dont like to wait and id much rather do it myself. having said all that ill give ya 40 bucks for the snow blower. and you have the nerve to say that denny and i are cheap lol. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : roy

denny wddodge@woh.rr.com wrote careful t-bone ole red is selling the machine so ya never know what hes up to... denny i am trying to sell it but you and roy wont bid. thats why ive only got a quarter to flip with. now if you guys will put in a decent bid on da machine i can afford the whole truck!!!! g me and roy are still trying to figure out why youre selling it. a couple of weeks without a good workout and you must be feeling very frustrated. maybe you could just sell time-shares with your west coast buddies denny ha ha thats funny its like trying to get weaned off a milking machine dale sounds like ya been there. maybe you could offer some advice to our good friend red. at least some thoughts on how he can get over his separation anxiety or withdrawal from the machine. perhaps a substitute maybe even a woman. then again maybe hes been spoiled by the performance of the machine and nothing else will do. i still think he should reconsider and not sell it he could learn to share it. now that mac has his new toy and will be traveling all over the country maybe he could again transport it. of course last time mac got his hands on it he had some lame story as to why it never got to where it was supposed to. i figure mac might have made a copy for himself. anyway i can think of a few folks around here that should be made to spend some time with it as a attitude adjustment procedure. so perhaps mac will step up. cmon bro ya gotta help red. anyway see if ya can help the old fart out with his problem maybe collectively we can come up with a solution. roy .

From : yonzie

roy@home.net wrote denny wddodge@woh.rr.com wrote careful t-bone ole red is selling the machine so ya never know what hes up to... denny i am trying to sell it but you and roy wont bid. thats why ive only got a quarter to flip with. now if you guys will put in a decent bid on da machine i can afford the whole truck!!!! g me and roy are still trying to figure out why youre selling it. a couple of weeks without a good workout and you must be feeling very frustrated. maybe you could just sell time-shares with your west coast buddies denny ha ha thats funny its like trying to get weaned off a milking machine dale sounds like ya been there. maybe you could offer some advice to our good friend red. at least some thoughts on how he can get over his separation anxiety or withdrawal from the machine. perhaps a substitute maybe even a woman. then again maybe hes been spoiled by the performance of the machine and nothing else will do. i still think he should reconsider and not sell it he could learn to share it. now that mac has his new toy and will be traveling all over the country maybe he could again transport it. of course last time mac got his hands on it he had some lame story as to why it never got to where it was supposed to. i figure mac might have made a copy for himself. anyway i can think of a few folks around here that should be made to spend some time with it as a attitude adjustment procedure. so perhaps mac will step up. cmon bro ya gotta help red. anyway see if ya can help the old fart out with his problem maybe collectively we can come up with a solution. roy gotta take it one day at a time to get over the withdraw symptons. .