Update on 46RE rebuild
From : tom lawrence
Q: as some may remember i posted a while ago about a friends 00 durango that wasnt going in to lockup and was overheating the transmission fluid trans temp light would come on after 10-15 minutes of driving... thats about 260f. it then started slipping in multiple gears. we pulled it out what a bitch... fin exhaust all in the way not to mention all rusted to sh** - and just about zero access to the top bellhousing bolts combined with two fully-fused dowel pins that just didnt want to let go and tore it down. finally got it free of the engine and down on the bench. thought briefly about buying the special tool to disassemble the od unit until i saw they wanted $70 for it. rummaging around the shop i found a scrap piece of 3/8 plate which the plasma cutter quickly turned into a 4 disc three bolts which the welder quickly attached to the disc making a little tripod and before you knew it... presto a $70 tool for free. stuck it in the press and didnt kill myself removing the 800lb. od direct apply spring. with everything torn down we found a busted snap ring in the od inconsequential to the trouble some aluminum shavings in the od hub probably from the od direct steels chewing on the case - again not germane to the trouble evidence of rear clutch pack slippage almost no grooves left in the clutch discs decent amount of non-metallic crud in the pan clutch material and some evidence of overheating nasty-looking and even worse-smelling fluid. i know atf+4 smells bad normally but man... you should take a whiff once its been cooked. quincy would puke. we long suspected that the tc clutch was shot as that would explain the lack of lockup as well as the immense heat build-up nothing warms up fluid like a slipping clutch. so with a new tc remand vb didnt want to take the chance it was something screwy in the lu circuits of the vb or that the lu solenoid was weak and a rebuild kit we put the whole thing back together. i had to re-use some of the original steels as with the new steels the snap ring wouldnt fit. i didnt feel like trying to get thinner snap rings or trying to machine the ones we had back down. and besides the original steels looked fine all were nicenflat no warping and no black marks. iirc it was only the rear clutch pack that needed the original steels re-used. we flushed out the coolers factory cooler in the radiator plus an external cooler - installed to help make the drive down to my place with a can of transmission flush. important safety tip... dont install the can on the return line....the check valve in that line will quickly make a mess with trans flush all over the place. damn that stuff is cold. once hooked up to the right line a whole bunch of crud came out - took almost the whole can before it would run clear. so with all the new parts in the trans and everything buttoned up we re-installed it it was then that i realized i forgot to re-install the stupid e-clip on the park rod. sob! well it turned out id get another chance.... more of a bitch trying to get those upper bellhousing bolts in place. finally get it in piece the exhaust back together we cut it in two places to remove it and fire it up. p1762 code - governor pressure sensor volts high/low. limp mode... 3rd gear only. fffaaaawwwwkkkkkk..... stuck a gauge on the governor test port.... 60psi @ idle. not good.... should be around 3. pul the vb back out all that brand-new expensive +4 fluid... no one sells/carries +3 anymore. i used to pay $2.50/qt. for +3 - now its well over $5/qt.... we saved every drop for re-use. bench-test the solenoid - seems to work. bench-test the sensor... the brand new sensor on the rebuilt tested certified blah blah blah valve body.... nothin. at first i read 0.98v from it regardless of pressure. after that it would only indicate 0.03 or 0.04v again regardless of pressure. gdmfpos. off to the dealer get a new sensor cant/dont want to deal with calling the place sending it back playing the well you must have damaged it game. slap that back in re-install vb button everything up remembered to install the stupid e-clip this time - a little more difficult when the trans in the vehicle replace liquid-gold tranny juice and start it up. no codes. cool! go for test drive... 1st gear 2nd 3rd 4th.... wait for it.... wait for it.... lockup. terrific. spectacular. couldnt be happier... ..... until.... aw dammit! leak from the input seal... dripping out the inspection plate. contemplate the amount of carnage several well-aimed rounds of .50 caliber would do the transmission. chuckle inside at the thought. through deep meditation about 8 bottles worth conclude that its just a new seal that s a little stiff.... and itll work its way in and eventually stop leaking. yeah thats the ticket. cuz theres no way in hell i feel like pulling that pos back out again. so thats where we stand now...
Replies:
From : tom lawrence
well it doesnt speak well for the guys that did the first rebuild. i found a bunch of little things that made me question their attention to detail. on the first rebuild i forget the specifics but it was something wrong in the o/d section. he didnt want to have the vehicle down for the time it would have taken us to pull the od unit tear it down/have it repaired and re-install so he just found a place to do a quick rebuild. as for why it went in the first place well he was your typical owner with a blown 46re a person who towed a lot and was very lax on maintenance. the 48re introduced in late 03 for the diesels has had a much better track record. dodge re-did the overdrive unit going to a massive 23-disc direct clutch pack and improving the fluid flow into the od unit. that significantly patched up the only real problem area with the overall design. while i havent seen the 68rfe from what i understand it was designed from the ground up as a 6 speed rather than adapted from an initial 3-speed design. as such theres no add-on overdrive unit and im sure everything is built to take the abuse of 650+ ft.lbs. tom thats really poor. it doesnt say much for the quality does it i understand the new automatic for the cummins is of industrial quality is that also your opinion steve i am very happy i have a 6 speed manual. out of curiosity how many miles before the failure 80k on the original... about 60k on this one. .
From : steve lusardi
i am very happy i have a 6 speed manual. out of curiosity how many miles before the failure steve as some may remember i posted a while ago about a friends 00 durango that wasnt going in to lockup and was overheating the transmission fluid trans temp light would come on after 10-15 minutes of driving... thats about 260f. it then started slipping in multiple gears. we pulled it out what a bitch... fin exhaust all in the way not to mention all rusted to sh** - and just about zero access to the top bellhousing bolts combined with two fully-fused dowel pins that just didnt want to let go and tore it down. finally got it free of the engine and down on the bench. thought briefly about buying the special tool to disassemble the od unit until i saw they wanted $70 for it. rummaging around the shop i found a scrap piece of 3/8 plate which the plasma cutter quickly turned into a 4 disc three bolts which the welder quickly attached to the disc making a little tripod and before you knew it... presto a $70 tool for free. stuck it in the press and didnt kill myself removing the 800lb. od direct apply spring. with everything torn down we found a busted snap ring in the od inconsequential to the trouble some aluminum shavings in the od hub probably from the od direct steels chewing on the case - again not germane to the trouble evidence of rear clutch pack slippage almost no grooves left in the clutch discs decent amount of non-metallic crud in the pan clutch material and some evidence of overheating nasty-looking and even worse-smelling fluid. i know atf+4 smells bad normally but man... you should take a whiff once its been cooked. quincy would puke. we long suspected that the tc clutch was shot as that would explain the lack of lockup as well as the immense heat build-up nothing warms up fluid like a slipping clutch. so with a new tc remand vb didnt want to take the chance it was something screwy in the lu circuits of the vb or that the lu solenoid was weak and a rebuild kit we put the whole thing back together. i had to re-use some of the original steels as with the new steels the snap ring wouldnt fit. i didnt feel like trying to get thinner snap rings or trying to machine the ones we had back down. and besides the original steels looked fine all were nicenflat no warping and no black marks. iirc it was only the rear clutch pack that needed the original steels re-used. we flushed out the coolers factory cooler in the radiator plus an external cooler - installed to help make the drive down to my place with a can of transmission flush. important safety tip... dont install the can on the return line....the check valve in that line will quickly make a mess with trans flush all over the place. damn that stuff is cold. once hooked up to the right line a whole bunch of crud came out - took almost the whole can before it would run clear. so with all the new parts in the trans and everything buttoned up we re-installed it it was then that i realized i forgot to re-install the stupid e-clip on the park rod. sob! well it turned out id get another chance.... more of a bitch trying to get those upper bellhousing bolts in place. finally get it in piece the exhaust back together we cut it in two places to remove it and fire it up. p1762 code - governor pressure sensor volts high/low. limp mode... 3rd gear only. fffaaaawwwwkkkkkk..... stuck a gauge on the governor test port.... 60psi @ idle. not good.... should be around 3. pul the vb back out all that brand-new expensive +4 fluid... no one sells/carries +3 anymore. i used to pay $2.50/qt. for +3 - now its well over $5/qt.... we saved every drop for re-use. bench-test the solenoid - seems to work. bench-test the sensor... the brand new sensor on the rebuilt tested certified blah blah blah valve body.... nothin. at first i read 0.98v from it regardless of pressure. after that it would only indicate 0.03 or 0.04v again regardless of pressure. gdmfpos. off to the dealer get a new sensor cant/dont want to deal with calling the place sending it back playing the well you must have damaged it game. slap that back in re-install vb button everything up remembered to install the stupid e-clip this time - a little more difficult when the trans in the vehicle replace liquid-gold tranny juice and start it up. no codes. cool! go for test drive... 1st gear 2nd 3rd 4th.... wait for it.... wait for it.... lockup. terrific. spectacular. couldnt be happier... .... until.... aw dammit! leak from the input seal... dripping out the inspection plate. contemplate the amount of carnage several well-aimed rounds of .50 caliber would do the transmission. chuckle inside at the thought. through deep meditation about 8 bottles worth conclude that its just a new seal that s a little stiff.... and itll work its way in and eventually stop leaking. yeah thats the ticket. cuz theres
From : tom lawrence
i am very happy i have a 6 speed manual. out of curiosity how many miles before the failure 80k on the original... about 60k on this one. .
From : tom lawrence
hope ya didnt hit the same problem i had last time i had what i thought was a front seal leak turned out to be a bad weld on the converter hub. it was a new converter not a rebuild too. anyways good luck yeah me too. were going to have to pull the transmission back out. i stuck a drain pan under the truck and after a day there was probably 1/3 of a quart in the pan. thats quite a bit more than i had when i had a leaking input seal. that would be just perfect.... buy new valve body it comes with a dead sensor. buy a new converter - it comes with a leak. maybe shoving an nv4500 in there isnt such a bad idea. .
From : steve lusardi
tom thats really poor. it doesnt say much for the quality does it i understand the new automatic for the cummins is of industrial quality is that also your opinion steve i am very happy i have a 6 speed manual. out of curiosity how many miles before the failure 80k on the original... about 60k on this one. .
From : nunya
well it doesnt speak well for the guys that did the first rebuild. i found a bunch of little things that made me question their attention to detail. on the first rebuild i forget the specifics but it was something wrong in the o/d section. he didnt want to have the vehicle down for the time it would have taken us to pull the od unit tear it down/have it repaired and re-install so he just found a place to do a quick rebuild. as for why it went in the first place well he was your typical owner with a blown 46re a person who towed a lot and was very lax on maintenance. snip well your story on the rebuild reinforces my opinion on how to handle transmission trouble. my 97 1500 4x4 had to have a new tranny at 215k. of course it deserved a new transmission. a life of pulling campers trailers and being loaded doing work stuff. i would say that it carrying at least a 800 to 3000 pound load more days than it didnt. at least once a month its a trip to the aggregate plant to pick up 3k of sandblast sand. twice a week to the lumber store to pick up a load of pressure treated lumber. move equipment back and forth haul the camper occassionally for the wife etc. all this with a propensity not to do regular service. i only changed the tranny fluid twice before it died. when it died i ordered a new tranny in a crate from mopar. we installed it with a new torque converter radiator and all new cooling lines. nothing got reused to contaminate the new transmission. in fact i was told that if you didnt do it this way the moco wouldnt warranty the thing. job went snooth with all new factory parts drove it for a week and overdrive started flipping out. since it was all brand new and covered by the warranty i took it to my local dodge dealer. since i had done the swap myself they tried to hem and haw. when i showed them the reciepts where i bought every component brand new from them for the swap they rolled it back into the shop. they made some adjustments and i went on my way. a couple of three days later it started flipping out again and i took it back. they replaced a sensor and the tranny has worked flawlessly for 80k. i hope to not replace the transmission in this truck again until it is ready for the scrap yard. my plan is to keep it serviced and then retire it at 400k. that is enough service life for a 1/2 ton gas burner. the transmission in my 2001 3/4 ton diesel has just started the overdrive flutter as i refer to it. the truck has 190k on it and if you forget to lock out the overdrive for city driving it will start shifting back and forth between od and third rapidly until you remember to lock the od. i know this is the first sign. i will continue to drive the thing until just locking the od out for low speed driving doesnt help anymore and if it is like the 97 first gear will be getting weak by this time. i expect this to be somewhere between 210k and 250k. when it finally gets bad enough to do something about i will buy a new radiator cooling lines torque converter tranny and all related parts. we will shoehorn all these factory moco items in and go back to dragging heavy stuff around with a factory warranty. personally i dont believe in rebuilding transmissions. i dont do it every day so i am not qualified. if you take it to a transmission shop you are at the mercy of the mechanic of the week way too often. the price difference and potential down time is not worth the few dollars saved. by the time my trucks reach the 200k+ mark it just makes sense to replace the radiator and any external coolers anyway. so that is my preferred method for handling transmission trouble. right or wrong it works for me. we seem to get an average of a quarter million miles per tranny and that is decent enough for me. i have two dakotas that are still on their original transmissions. one is at 250k and the other is at 277k. i know a guy locally that has replaced the transmission on his 1/2 ton gmc truck four times. he is only getting about 40k to 50k per replacement. he reuses the torque converter coolers radiators and lines. he says he fluses everything well but i believe his problem is that he cant or isnt getting all the gunk out and is contaminating his brand new tranny right out of the box. it is just too easy and not that much more expensive to go all the way. down time costs me more money than the parts. b.t.w. i have two factory nos short tail shaft 727 transmissions that are 1970s vintage units that i picked up a year ago. they are dead solid perfect and i can lay my hands on one more. they came out of an airforce warehouse and were sold at auction. if anyone needs a nos 727 i could let one of mine go and lay my hands on the other available unit. my buddy and i bought a total of five. we have sold one with no complaints. we each plan on using one a piece in projects and that leaves two more to sell.
From : tom lawrence
personally i dont believe in rebuilding transmissions. i dont do it every day so i am not qualified. if it works for you its hard to argue against it. theres a lot of merit to the argument that its better to pay a little more get all new stuff and save downtime. in our case were not under the gun so we can wait for parts spend time on labor though it sucks to have to re-do things several times while not laying out lots of cash. if this were my truck a daily driver id most likely just pay a shop to swap in a new performance-built transmission - for the exact reason that if anything went wrong it would be on them to fix it. reuses the torque converter coolers radiators and lines. he says he fluses everything well but i believe his problem is that he cant or isnt you cant flush out a torque converter nor can you replace the clutch lining of the lockup clutch. re-using a tc on a trans rebuild is just begging for trouble - as his experience proves. .
From : johnb
hope ya didnt hit the same problem i had last time i had what i thought was a front seal leak turned out to be a bad weld on the converter hub. it was a new converter not a rebuild too. anyways good luck .
From : bg
tbone wrote of course it does. the farther you get away from the planet the lower the force of gravity acting on it is. then you can add to that the fact if it is actually flying there is a force being applied to it that is negating the force of gravity so in relation to the ground the airplane has no weight. now i realize that this is an abstract thought process which seems hard for most of you to understand but it still is what it is. the airplane is exerting a downword force equal to the airplanes weight onto the air that supports it. thats a concept that you dont seem to comprehend. .