Problem With Power Outlet

From : neil

Q: i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for the power inverter and for the laptop charger are below. thanks for any input! neil power inverter specs capacity 140w input voltage 12vdc dc input voltage range 10.5 - 15.8vdc output voltage nominal 120vac 5% dc voltage 12vdc cigarette jack frequency 60 hz 3% continuous output power 140w peak output power 270w laptop charger specs power provided 90 w product type power adapter type ac adapter voltage required 100 to 240 vac max output current 4.5 a max. at 4-second pulse 3.5 a continuous .

Replies:

From : matt whiting

tbone wrote even a bad ground will show 12 volts if there is any connection at all with no load on it. are you sure what if the ground is disconnected completely matt .

From : bill putney

max dodge wrote ...and neither of you know proper troubleshooting procedure. it would be neither know*s* as long as it makes you feel good to say that thats all that matters. you have a lovely day too. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : bill putney

max dodge wrote it would be neither know*s* no it would be exactly as i wrote it since both are acceptable. thats not how it works. ever take an english class oh only several and making a steady living as a technical writer. amazing eh! bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : joe

you guys are studs for still posted in this thread. i dont see how youve kept it up honestly. .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on wed 15 mar 2006 132557 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote youre proving a high level of dishonesty on your part by repeating that lie numerous times. as was accurately pointed out several times by others the battery voltage was already tested and the inverter cuts off even with the alternator pumping the system well above battery voltage and measurements showing considerable drop in the wiring. voltage tesed yes load tested no. time to test the battery for load handling ability. for crying out lowd max how do you think they arrived at the cranking amp rating not the published figure for the battery give it a rest already - youve had your butt kicked - admit it. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : gary glaenzer

why not just replace the battery instead of over-analyzing this if the battery cures it case closed if not let dodge deal with it i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for the power inverter and for the laptop charger are below. thanks for any input! neil power inverter specs capacity 140w input voltage 12vdc dc input voltage range 10.5 - 15.8vdc output voltage nominal 120vac 5% dc voltage 12vdc cigarette jack frequency 60 hz 3% continuous output power 140w peak output power 270w laptop charger specs power provided 90 w product type power adapter type ac adapter voltage required 100 to 240 vac max output current 4.5 a max. at 4-second pulse 3.5 a continuous .

From : ken weitzel

neil wrote i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for the power inverter and for the laptop charger are below. thanks for any input! neil power inverter specs capacity 140w input voltage 12vdc dc input voltage range 10.5 - 15.8vdc output voltage nominal 120vac 5% dc voltage 12vdc cigarette jack frequency 60 hz 3% continuous output power 140w peak output power 270w laptop charger specs power provided 90 w product type power adapter type ac adapter voltage required 100 to 240 vac max output current 4.5 a max. at 4-second pulse 3.5 a continuous hi neil... respectfully suggest that the problems not with the battery or the alternator but rather that the invertors shutting down to save you being stranded. by the time the battery voltage is down to 10.5 volts with a 3 or 4 amp draw you arent at all likely to start the car only reasonable suggestion i can offer is buying another from someplace that might let you try several until you find one a little less protective of you - or modifying the one you have to make it a little less sensitive to battery voltage. be aware though that if you do go this route you may well end up stranded. good luck and take care. ken .

From : fmb

i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. go out to the car plug in your puter and inverter see that it is not getting power then turn your key to acc. does it come on for a few seconds what if you turn the key to on without starting the engine does it go on and stay on my inverter stays on for a few seconds after turning the truck off if it is plugged into the power outlet that doesnt get power when the key is off. i dont know if it turns on with the key on acc as i now have it plugged into a always on outlet when i use it. fmb .

From : daniel j stern

on sat 11 mar 2006 neil wrote i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. youll probably find your cigarette lighter plug is depowered when the engine is shut down. itll be a fairly simple matter to rewire it so its live all the time. .

From : bill putney

neil wrote actually ive tested it with the engine off and it only stays on a few seconds. not sure what the batter saver function is; but if the battery is fully charged then a 90w drain shouldnt be that much for it. but the inverter shuts down after a couple of seconds with the engine off. chrysler vehicles have a battery saver function that may be shutting down the load a few minutes after killing the ignition. besides the good suggestion of others that the socket may become depowered with ign. off i cant believe that no one has suggested - are you ready for a mind-blowing idea - that you take a *voltmeter* and actually read the *voltage* at the lighter socket both with the inverter as a load and without load. it may not give you the *whole* story but it certainly would answer a lot of questions about what is going on with the voltage levels - like is there too much drop in the wire to the socket *or* is the system voltage dropping *or* is something actively *disconnecting* the socket from power *or* etc. etc. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : jcr

on 3/11/2006 438 pm ... neil wrote actually ive tested it with the engine off and it only stays on a few seconds. not sure what the batter saver function is; but if the battery is fully charged then a 90w drain shouldnt be that much for it. but the inverter shuts down after a couple of seconds with the engine off. chrysler vehicles have a battery saver function that may be shutting down the load a few minutes after killing the ignition. it wouldnt be the battery saver system then. it waits a few minutes before killing loads it knows shouldnt normally be drawing power. have you put a meter on the circuit to see what voltage reading youre actually getting .

From : webpa

your troubleshooting has been fairly extensive...except for the only 2 tests that actually matter 1. what is the voltage at on the battery terminals engine on and engine off 2. what is the voltage at the interior sockets engine on and engine off if 1 is above 10.5 v engine on and below 10.5 v engine off your battery is shot...no matter what. if 1 is above 10.5 v at all times...and stays that way for a couple of minutes and 2 is above 10.5 v then a your inverter is broken or b the inverters specifications are wrong it shuts down above 10.5 v. it is also perfectly possible that both sockets in the new vehicle have been used extensivelly and are seriously corroded. this essentially places a resistor in the circuit...causing a voltage drop that depends on the current drawn by the inverter...which depends on the load on the inverter. for this clean the interiors of the sockets battery disconnected. but id vote for poor battery performance. actually ive tested it with the engine off and it only stays on a few seconds. not sure what the batter saver function is; but if the battery is fully charged then a 90w drain shouldnt be that much for it. but the inverter shuts down after a couple of seconds with the engine off. .

From : neil

well id prefer to not shell out $75 if its something else. as for dodge the cars out of warranty 45k miles anythings out of pocket. neil why not just replace the battery instead of over-analyzing this if the battery cures it case closed if not let dodge deal with it i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for the power inverter and for the laptop charger are below. thanks for any input! neil power inverter specs capacity 140w input voltage 12vdc dc input voltage range 10.5 - 15.8vdc output voltage nominal 120vac 5% dc voltage 12vdc cigarette jack frequency 60 hz 3% continuous output power 140w peak output power 270w laptop charger specs power provided 90 w product type power adapter type ac adapter voltage required 100 to 240 vac max output current 4.5 a max. at 4-second pulse 3.5 a continuous .

From : jcr

chrysler vehicles have a battery saver function that may be shutting down the load a few minutes after killing the ignition. .

From : neil

the one in the back is on all the time the fuse box allows you to toggle it between always on and only on with key but the one in the front requires the key to be in acc. either way without the engine on the inverters not getting enough juice to stay on. on sat 11 mar 2006 neil wrote i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. youll probably find your cigarette lighter plug is depowered when the engine is shut down. itll be a fairly simple matter to rewire it so its live all the time. .

From : neil

actually ive tested it with the engine off and it only stays on a few seconds. not sure what the batter saver function is; but if the battery is fully charged then a 90w drain shouldnt be that much for it. but the inverter shuts down after a couple of seconds with the engine off. chrysler vehicles have a battery saver function that may be shutting down the load a few minutes after killing the ignition. .

From : jcr

a 2003 may be covered under the 5-60 warranty offered on some 2003 models. .

From : justme

sounds like the battery has poor reserve power it has enough reserve to start the car i dont think the inverter draws more than the starter. .

From : neil

right except that ive used this same setup -- same inverter same laptop and charger -- for a long time with my other car without any problem. so it seems that im not getting the juice from the car that i should be getting. the inverter never shut down with my gmc jimmy. thanks. neil wrote i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for the power inverter and for the laptop charger are below. thanks for any input! neil power inverter specs capacity 140w input voltage 12vdc dc input voltage range 10.5 - 15.8vdc output voltage nominal 120vac 5% dc voltage 12vdc cigarette jack frequency 60 hz 3% continuous output power 140w peak output power 270w laptop charger specs power provided 90 w product type power adapter type ac adapter voltage required 100 to 240 vac max output current 4.5 a max. at 4-second pulse 3.5 a continuous hi neil... respectfully suggest that the problems not with the battery or the alternator but rather that the invertors shutting down to save you being stranded. by the time the battery voltage is down to 10.5 volts with a 3 or 4 amp draw you arent at all likely to start the car only reasonable suggestion i can offer is buying another from someplace that might let you try several until you find one a little less protective of you - or modifying the one you have to make it a little less sensitive to battery voltage. be aware though that if you do go this route you may well end up stranded. good luck and take care. ken .

From : neil

there are two outlets -- one in the front and one in the back. the one in the front requires the key to be in acc; the one in the back is always on. whether the key is on with either on or the key is off with just the one in the back the results are the same inverter only stays on for a few seconds indicating that its not getting enough juice. when the engines on and hence alternators on it stays on. but with the engine off the inverter stays on for just a couple of seconds and then shuts down. thanks. i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. go out to the car plug in your puter and inverter see that it is not getting power then turn your key to acc. does it come on for a few seconds what if you turn the key to on without starting the engine does it go on and stay on my inverter stays on for a few seconds after turning the truck off if it is plugged into the power outlet that doesnt get power when the key is off. i dont know if it turns on with the key on acc as i now have it plugged into a always on outlet when i use it. fmb .

From : neil

see below. your troubleshooting has been fairly extensive...except for the only 2 tests that actually matter 1. what is the voltage at on the battery terminals engine on and engine off when i tested it at autozone they said the battery tested fine and it was at 12.8v. that was with a series of tests and with a load etc. so dont know the exact answer to the above question; but the battery passed the autozone tester tests. 2. what is the voltage at the interior sockets engine on and engine off thats a good question. how do i test that as noted in this thread i havent been able to find someone who has a tester for the actual sockets. if 1 is above 10.5 v engine on and below 10.5 v engine off your battery is shot...no matter what. if 1 is above 10.5 v at all times...and stays that way for a couple of minutes and 2 is above 10.5 v then a your inverter is broken or b the inverters specifications are wrong it shuts down above 10.5 v. as noted i havent had a problem with the inverter previously with my jimmy. and this is the first time im using with the caravan which i just got last week. it is also perfectly possible that both sockets in the new vehicle have been used extensivelly and are seriously corroded. this essentially places a resistor in the circuit...causing a voltage drop that depends on the current drawn by the inverter...which depends on the load on the inverter. for this clean the interiors of the sockets battery disconnected. they both look pretty clean. but id vote for poor battery performance. that would be an easy thing to rectify. does it sound like 45k miles is a reasonable amount for an original battery to fail im in texas and the summers are hot. but still it seems like it should last longer. thanks! actually ive tested it with the engine off and it only stays on a few seconds. not sure what the batter saver function is; but if the battery is fully charged then a 90w drain shouldnt be that much for it. but the inverter shuts down after a couple of seconds with the engine off. .

From : dan c

on sat 11 mar 2006 213604 +0000 neil wrote whether the key is on with either on or the key is off with just the one in the back the results are the same inverter only stays on for a few seconds indicating that its not getting enough juice. when the engines on and hence alternators on it stays on. but with the engine off the inverter stays on for just a couple of seconds and then shuts down. which proves that the battery needs to be replaced as youve already been advised. sheesh. -- if youre not on the edge youre taking up too much space. linux registered user #327951 .

From : bill putney

neil wrote actually splitter isnt necessary. the inverter has an auxiliary power outlet in case you want to plug in a cigarette lighter or cell phone or whatever in addition to the ac outlet. which makes the statement by the dealer that they didnt have a meter to measure voltage there even more ridiculous than first thought. as someone else pointed out they ae giving you the brush off. and it means that all you need is the meter. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : tbone

and a new battery which at three years on a factory battery isnt a bad idea at all. the factory delco battery in my 85 jeep comanche lasted 9 years so i wouldnt have considered replacing at at 1/3 of its life to be a good idea. i guess we just have different definitions of good idea. ever have a late model mopar battery ever consider that 9 years is 4 over the average life of the best lead acid battery life expectancy on the market meanwhile a bunch of guys who never set foot in a repair shop except to pick up the car will tell a bunch of us whove been doping this for years how it all works wasting time for..... days while the op doesnt have a clue how to operate a vm.... he does now as several of us have given him a few clues. you just gave him suggestions that require him to visit a repair shop. if he cant operate a vm maybe his best option is a shop. my suggestions were 1 test battery voltage was done multipe times and shown to be ok. 2 test port voltage as comparison also done and shows a significant voltage drop. 3 act accordingly. means absolutly nothing to someone without experience. all easily done on his own if he learns to operate a vm. then why do you keep telling him to take it to a shop. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : neil

below is what i got from the cars carfax report. dont know how accurate it is. but it seems to indicate that there is no warranty. neil estimated start date of warranty 09/08/2003 last reading reported on 01/07/2006 43212 miles todays date march 1 2006 type of coverage original warranty estimated remaining coverage basic 36 months or 36000 miles coverage expired drivetrain 84 months or 70000 miles 55 months or 26788 miles emissions 36 months or 36000 miles coverage expired corrosion 60 months or 100000 miles 31 months or 56788 miles transferable transferable at no cost same roadside assistance 36 months or 36000 miles coverage expired safety belt & inflatable restraint no data reported to carfax specific components 96 months or 80000 miles 67 months or 36788 miles notes manufacturer covers emissions components under basic warranty. emissions coverage may vary by state. refer to owners manual for specific details. transferable no cost unlimited owners covered. corrosion coverage applies to outer panels. inner panels are covered un corrosion for 3 years only. wear items are covered for 1 year or 12000 miles. a $100 powertrain deductible applies after basic warranty coverage period and is transferable. jcr nospam@nospam.com wrote

From : neil

a 2003 may be covered under the 5-60 warranty offered on some 2003 models. . 222 314204 smiqf.4889$6i.3850@read3..pas.earthlink.net yes thats a good idea. i actually asked two places out that -- a goodyear repair place and the dodge dealer service center. both said they didnt have any such voltmeter. neil wrote actually ive tested it with the engine off and it only stays on a few seconds. not sure what the batter saver function is; but if the battery is fully charged then a 90w drain shouldnt be that much for it. but the inverter shuts down after a couple of seconds with the engine off. chrysler vehicles have a battery saver function that may be shutting down the load a few minutes after killing the ignition. besides the good suggestion of others that the socket may become depowered with ign. off i cant believe that no one has suggested - are you ready for a mind-blowing idea - that you take a *voltmeter* and actually read the *voltage* at the lighter socket both with the inverter as a load and without load. it may not give you the *whole* story but it certainly would answer a lot of questions about what is going on with the voltage levels - like is there too much drop in the wire to the socket *or* is the system voltage dropping *or* is something actively *disconnecting* the socket from power *or* etc. etc. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : neil

no i havent and per the other message i just posted here i dont know here i can get a meter than reads voltage in the actual power outlet. i suppose i could put a meter on the battery and see what happens. on 3/11/2006 438 pm ... neil wrote actually ive tested it with the engine off and it only stays on a few seconds. not sure what the batter saver function is; but if the battery is fully charged then a 90w drain shouldnt be that much for it. but the inverter shuts down after a couple of seconds with the engine off. chrysler vehicles have a battery saver function that may be shutting down the load a few minutes after killing the ignition. it wouldnt be the battery saver system then. it waits a few minutes before killing loads it knows shouldnt normally be drawing power. have you put a meter on the circuit to see what voltage reading youre actually getting .

From : neil

some more notes regarding this. with engine off i plug in the power inverter with nothing connected to inverter. get low voltage alarm 11.5v but inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop charger not connected to laptop and lights in laptop charger come on and inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop in need of charge but with laptop itself turned off to laptop charger. laptop lights show its charging and inverter stays on. i then unplug the laptop from charger while still in need of charge and turn it on. after laptop is booted i plug laptop back into charger. get a long alarm 5 seconds from inverter and it turns itself off indicating that voltage is 10.5v. thus it seems that even without a load except for the inverter its getting 11.5v. and its able to handle a small load but not the load with the laptop on. but again its only a 90w charger. and also again didnt have a problem with past two cars i had. regarding the battery itself there are my notes from the autozone battery test. 628 cold cranking amps 12.8v with alternator off 13.82 with alternator on thanks for any input. neil i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for the power inverter and for the laptop charger are below. thanks for any input! neil power inverter specs capacity 140w input voltage 12vdc dc input voltage range 10.5 - 15.8vdc output voltage nominal 120vac 5% dc voltage 12vdc cigarette jack frequency 60 hz 3% continuous output power 140w peak output power 270w laptop charger specs power provided 90 w product type power adapter type ac adapter voltage required 100 to 240 vac max output current 4.5 a max. at 4-second pulse 3.5 a continuous .

From : philthy

sounds like the battery has poor reserve power neil wrote i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for the power inverter and for the laptop charger are below. thanks for any input! neil power inverter specs capacity 140w input voltage 12vdc dc input voltage range 10.5 - 15.8vdc output voltage nominal 120vac 5% dc voltage 12vdc cigarette jack frequency 60 hz 3% continuous output power 140w peak output power 270w laptop charger specs power provided 90 w product type power adapter type ac adapter voltage required 100 to 240 vac max output current 4.5 a max. at 4-second pulse 3.5 a continuous .

From : neil

see my more recent response to clare here. front circuit has problems too. thanks neil neil wrote some more notes regarding this. with engine off i plug in the power inverter with nothing connected to inverter. get low voltage alarm 11.5v but inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop charger not connected to laptop and lights in laptop charger come on and inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop in need of charge but with laptop itself turned off to laptop charger. laptop lights show its charging and inverter stays on. i then unplug the laptop from charger while still in need of charge and turn it on. after laptop is booted i plug laptop back into charger. get a long alarm 5 seconds from inverter and it turns itself off indicating that voltage is 10.5v. thus it seems that even without a load except for the inverter its getting 11.5v. and its able to handle a small load but not the load with the laptop on. but again its only a 90w charger. and also again didnt have a problem with past two cars i had. this makes me even more suspicious that there is a ptc protecting this circuit. might want to find someone with a factory service manual and review the schematics. matt .

From : matt whiting

neil wrote i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for the power inverter and for the laptop charger are below. first you need to get a multimeter and check the actual voltage at the power outlet. i dont know how this is wired but if it is wired directly to the battery bus then it should read the same open circuit voltage as the battery. if it is running through a semiconductor swithing device such as the interior lights do then you will lose some voltage across that device 0.7v is typical for silicon if memory serves. so this would drop the nominal 12.6v open circuit at the battery to 11.9v open circuit at the power outlet. you then said this is a rear outlet so that means it may have 20 feet or so of wire. i dont know what the amp rating on the outlet is but if it isnt all that high it may be wired with fairly small gauge wire. if you are drawing 90w this yields 7.5a at a nominal 12v and could be even higher if the battery is dropping below 12v under load unlikely if the car still starts ok with this battery. does the outlet cover have a power or current rating printed on it another possibility if you happen to be exceeding the power draw of the outlet is that it may be getting shut down by a ptc or similar device. i believe chrysler uses ptcs to protect several of the body circuits. these positive temperature coefficient thermistors will increase their resistance as they heat up. they will heat up as the amperage draw of the circuit they are protecting increases. increased resistance means increased voltage drop across the ptc and thus less voltage available to the load. if the 7.5-8 amps you are drawing is anywhere near the limit of that power outlet then this could well be dropping the voltage below 10.5 volts as it heats up. and this would also account for the slight delay before your inverter shuts down. with the engine running you are likely starting out with closer to 14 volts available rather than 12 and this could well be enough to keep you above 10.5 even if the ptc were dropping a couple of volts at the current you are drawing. just some thoughts. matt .

From : matt whiting

neil wrote some more notes regarding this. with engine off i plug in the power inverter with nothing connected to inverter. get low voltage alarm 11.5v but inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop charger not connected to laptop and lights in laptop charger come on and inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop in need of charge but with laptop itself turned off to laptop charger. laptop lights show its charging and inverter stays on. i then unplug the laptop from charger while still in need of charge and turn it on. after laptop is booted i plug laptop back into charger. get a long alarm 5 seconds from inverter and it turns itself off indicating that voltage is 10.5v. thus it seems that even without a load except for the inverter its getting 11.5v. and its able to handle a small load but not the load with the laptop on. but again its only a 90w charger. and also again didnt have a problem with past two cars i had. this makes me even more suspicious that there is a ptc protecting this circuit. might want to find someone with a factory service manual and review the schematics. matt .

From : bill putney

neil wrote yes thats a good idea. i actually asked two places out that -- a goodyear repair place and the dodge dealer service center. both said they didnt have any such voltmeter. repair places without voltmeters multimeters! what will they think of next. amazing. but i guess im not surprised. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x neil wrote actually ive tested it with the engine off and it only stays on a few seconds. not sure what the batter saver function is; but if the battery is fully charged then a 90w drain shouldnt be that much for it. but the inverter shuts down after a couple of seconds with the engine off. chrysler vehicles have a battery saver function that may be shutting down the load a few minutes after killing the ignition. besides the good suggestion of others that the socket may become depowered with ign. off i cant believe that no one has suggested - are you ready for a mind-blowing idea - that you take a *voltmeter* and actually read the *voltage* at the lighter socket both with the inverter as a load and without load. it may not give you the *whole* story but it certainly would answer a lot of questions about what is going on with the voltage levels - like is there too much drop in the wire to the socket *or* is the system voltage dropping *or* is something actively *disconnecting* the socket from power *or* etc. etc. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : bill putney

neil wrote some more notes regarding this. with engine off i plug in the power inverter with nothing connected to inverter. get low voltage alarm 11.5v but inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop charger not connected to laptop and lights in laptop charger come on and inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop in need of charge but with laptop itself turned off to laptop charger. laptop lights show its charging and inverter stays on. i then unplug the laptop from charger while still in need of charge and turn it on. after laptop is booted i plug laptop back into charger. get a long alarm 5 seconds from inverter and it turns itself off indicating that voltage is 10.5v. thus it seems that even without a load except for the inverter its getting 11.5v. and its able to handle a small load but not the load with the laptop on. but again its only a 90w charger. and also again didnt have a problem with past two cars i had. regarding the battery itself there are my notes from the autozone battery test. 628 cold cranking amps 12.8v with alternator off 13.82 with alternator on thanks for any input. neil now you are getting somewhere. matt is correct - you are getting voltage drop - pure and simple - either due to wiring resistance or some device in series that is inadvertently or intentionaly dropping voltage or limiting current sort of the same thing. you would not see the effects of this back at the battery. the voltage drop whatever the cause is seen across the cause of the drop i.e. thermistor entire length of wire or whatever. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : matt whiting

justme wrote sounds like the battery has poor reserve power it has enough reserve to start the car i dont think the inverter draws more than the starter. yes not even close. the above assertion isnt justified by the information presented thus far. a starter can draw hundreds of amps for a short time far more than the 8 or so that this laptop charger is drawing. matt .

From : jcr

on 3/11/2006 541 pm ... neil wrote yes thats a good idea. i actually asked two places out that -- a goodyear repair place and the dodge dealer service center. both said they didnt have any such voltmeter. neil wrote actually ive tested it with the engine off and it only stays on a few seconds. not sure what the batter saver function is; but if the battery is fully charged then a 90w drain shouldnt be that much for it. but the inverter shuts down after a couple of seconds with the engine off. chrysler vehicles have a battery saver function that may be shutting down the load a few minutes after killing the ignition. besides the good suggestion of others that the socket may become depowered with ign. off i cant believe that no one has suggested - are you ready for a mind-blowing idea - that you take a *voltmeter* and actually read the *voltage* at the lighter socket both with the inverter as a load and without load. it may not give you the *whole* story but it certainly would answer a lot of questions about what is going on with the voltage levels - like is there too much drop in the wire to the socket *or* is the system voltage dropping *or* is something actively *disconnecting* the socket from power *or* etc. etc. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x buy a cheap one at radio shack. .

From : neil

now you are getting somewhere. matt is correct - you are getting voltage drop - pure and simple - either due to wiring resistance or some device in series that is inadvertently or intentionaly dropping voltage or limiting current sort of the same thing. you would not see the effects of this back at the battery. the voltage drop whatever the cause is seen across the cause of the drop i.e. thermistor entire length of wire or whatever. yes thats true. however as i just posted to clare the front power outlet also is not getting enough power so theres something going on besides just wiring to the rear outlet. neil .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on sat 11 mar 2006 224128 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote yes thats a good idea. i actually asked two places out that -- a goodyear repair place and the dodge dealer service center. both said they didnt have any such voltmeter. neil wrote actually ive tested it with the engine off and it only stays on a few seconds. not sure what the batter saver function is; but if the battery is fully charged then a 90w drain shouldnt be that much for it. but the inverter shuts down after a couple of seconds with the engine off. chrysler vehicles have a battery saver function that may be shutting down the load a few minutes after killing the ignition. besides the good suggestion of others that the socket may become depowered with ign. off i cant believe that no one has suggested - are you ready for a mind-blowing idea - that you take a *voltmeter* and actually read the *voltage* at the lighter socket both with the inverter as a load and without load. it may not give you the *whole* story but it certainly would answer a lot of questions about what is going on with the voltage levels - like is there too much drop in the wire to the socket *or* is the system voltage dropping *or* is something actively *disconnecting* the socket from power *or* etc. etc. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x you need to find someone electrically and automotively knowlegeable with a voltmeter to make the tests for you. very basic test for those who know about these things. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on sat 11 mar 2006 224722 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote see below. your troubleshooting has been fairly extensive...except for the only 2 tests that actually matter 1. what is the voltage at on the battery terminals engine on and engine off when i tested it at autozone they said the battery tested fine and it was at 12.8v. that was with a series of tests and with a load etc. so dont know the exact answer to the above question; but the battery passed the autozone tester tests. 2. what is the voltage at the interior sockets engine on and engine off thats a good question. how do i test that as noted in this thread i havent been able to find someone who has a tester for the actual sockets. if 1 is above 10.5 v engine on and below 10.5 v engine off your battery is shot...no matter what. if 1 is above 10.5 v at all times...and stays that way for a couple of minutes and 2 is above 10.5 v then a your inverter is broken or b the inverters specifications are wrong it shuts down above 10.5 v. as noted i havent had a problem with the inverter previously with my jimmy. and this is the first time im using with the caravan which i just got last week. it is also perfectly possible that both sockets in the new vehicle have been used extensivelly and are seriously corroded. this essentially places a resistor in the circuit...causing a voltage drop that depends on the current drawn by the inverter...which depends on the load on the inverter. for this clean the interiors of the sockets battery disconnected. they both look pretty clean. but id vote for poor battery performance. that would be an easy thing to rectify. does it sound like 45k miles is a reasonable amount for an original battery to fail im in texas and the summers are hot. but still it seems like it should last longer. thanks! actually ive tested it with the engine off and it only stays on a few seconds. not sure what the batter saver function is; but if the battery is fully charged then a 90w drain shouldnt be that much for it. but the inverter shuts down after a couple of seconds with the engine off. buy one of those cheap power splitters. plug the inverter into one hole and carefully connect the voltmeter to the second hole. if you want to be real safe get a cord that fits the plug and connect the voltmeter to that. buy a cheap digital voltmeter for $5. the splitter mabee another 5 and a cord mabee another 5. or salvage a cord from an old device.. or just get an extention cable and split the conductors strip 2 spots and connect the voltmeter that way. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on sat 11 mar 2006 213345 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote right except that ive used this same setup -- same inverter same laptop and charger -- for a long time with my other car without any problem. so it seems that im not getting the juice from the car that i should be getting. the inverter never shut down with my gmc jimmy. thanks. neil wrote i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for the power inverter and for the laptop charger are below. thanks for any input! neil power inverter specs capacity 140w input voltage 12vdc dc input voltage range 10.5 - 15.8vdc output voltage nominal 120vac 5% dc voltage 12vdc cigarette jack frequency 60 hz 3% continuous output power 140w peak output power 270w laptop charger specs power provided 90 w product type power adapter type ac adapter voltage required 100 to 240 vac max output current 4.5 a max. at 4-second pulse 3.5 a continuous hi neil... respectfully suggest that the problems not with the battery or the alternator but rather that the invertors shutting down to save you being stranded. by the time the battery voltage is down to 10.5 volts with a 3 or 4 amp draw you arent at all likely to start the car only reasonable suggestion i can offer is buying another from someplace that might let you try several until you find one a little less protective of you - or modifying the one you have to make it a little less sensitive to battery voltage. be aware though that if you do go this route you may well end up stranded. good luck and take care. ken being a dodge i can say with almost complete certainty you have an excessive voltage drop to the power outlet at the back of the van. the wiring is way too light for anything more than a small trouble-light in my experience. a little inflator compressor will run about 2/3 to 3/4 speed under load compared to plugging in up front. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on sat 11 mar 2006 234831 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote some more notes regarding this. with engine off i plug in the power inverter with nothing connected to inverter. get low voltage alarm 11.5v but inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop charger not connected to laptop and lights in laptop charger come on and inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop in need of charge but with laptop itself turned off to laptop charger. laptop lights show its charging and inverter stays on. i then unplug the laptop from charger while still in need of charge and turn it on. after laptop is booted i plug laptop back into charger. get a long alarm 5 seconds from inverter and it turns itself off indicating that voltage is 10.5v. thus it seems that even without a load except for the inverter its getting 11.5v. and its able to handle a small load but not the load with the laptop on. but again its only a 90w charger. and also again didnt have a problem with past two cars i had. regarding the battery itself there are my notes from the autozone battery test. 628 cold cranking amps 12.8v with alternator off 13.82 with alternator on thanks for any input. your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. your 90 watt inverter is ok. your laptop charger is ok. your laptop is ok. the wires to the back power outlet are too light for the length. get an automotive electrician to run a secondheavier wire from the fuse box back to the outlet. connect it in parallel with the original from a s close to the fuse as possible to as close to the plug as possible. cost less than a new battery and actually solve the problem. neil i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for the power inverter and for the laptop charger are below. thanks for any input! neil power inverter specs capacity 140w input voltage 12vdc dc input voltage range 10.5 - 15.8vdc output voltage nominal 120vac 5% dc voltage 12vdc cigarette jack frequency 60 hz 3% continuous output power 140w peak output power 270w laptop charger specs power provided 90 w product type power adapter type ac adapter voltage required 100 to 240 vac max output current 4.5 a max. at 4-second pulse 3.5 a continuous *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : ted mittelstaedt

yes thats a good idea. i actually asked two places out that -- a goodyear repair place and the dodge dealer service center. both said they didnt have any such voltmeter. they are ususally called voltohmmeters or dvms and that is bullshit since the drb scanner that all dodge dealers have can make voltage measurements. besides that harbor freight puts them on sale for under $5 all the time. this is a basic electrical test instrument and any automotive service place that would say that i would question their competence. they are probably telling you that as a go away and stop bothering me kid kind of response. testing system voltage with a voltmeter is a required part of checking a charging system before installing a replacement battery. ted .

From : neil

yes and as noted previously the car starts right up with barely a touch and no foot on the gas. if the battery was a little low it would probably require a little work and some extra gas to start the car. sounds like the battery has poor reserve power it has enough reserve to start the car i dont think the inverter draws more than the starter. .

From : neil

you then said this is a rear outlet so that means it may have 20 feet or so of wire. i dont know what the amp rating on the outlet is but if it isnt all that high it may be wired with fairly small gauge wire. if you are drawing 90w this yields 7.5a at a nominal 12v and could be even higher if the battery is dropping below 12v under load unlikely if the car still starts ok with this battery. does the outlet cover have a power or current rating printed on it no nothing printed on it. another possibility if you happen to be exceeding the power draw of the outlet is that it may be getting shut down by a ptc or similar device. i believe chrysler uses ptcs to protect several of the body circuits. these positive temperature coefficient thermistors will increase their resistance as they heat up. they will heat up as the amperage draw of the circuit they are protecting increases. increased resistance means increased voltage drop across the ptc and thus less voltage available to the load. if the 7.5-8 amps you are drawing is anywhere near the limit of that power outlet then this could well be dropping the voltage below 10.5 volts as it heats up. and this would also account for the slight delay before your inverter shuts down. with the engine running you are likely starting out with closer to 14 volts available rather than 12 and this could well be enough to keep you above 10.5 even if the ptc were dropping a couple of volts at the current you are drawing. yes thats possible. thanks neil just some thoughts. matt .

From : dan c

on sun 12 mar 2006 082025 +0000 max dodge wrote this aint rocket science folks load test the battery check voltage at the power port and act accordingly. no shit. hard to believe this idiotic thread has progressed this long. replace the friggin battery and be done with it! -- if youre not on the edge youre taking up too much space. linux registered user #327951 .

From : neil

the voltmeter they were referring to was one that could test the voltage at the socket as the person had suggested. neither said they had a voltmeter that could test voltage at the socket though they had regular voltmeters. on sat 11 mar 2006 224128 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote yes thats a good idea. i actually asked two places out that -- a goodyear repair place and the dodge dealer service center. both said they didnt have any such voltmeter. neil wrote actually ive tested it with the engine off and it only stays on a few seconds. not sure what the batter saver function is; but if the battery is fully charged then a 90w drain shouldnt be that much for it. but the inverter shuts down after a couple of seconds with the engine off. chrysler vehicles have a battery saver function that may be shutting down the load a few minutes after killing the ignition. besides the good suggestion of others that the socket may become depowered with ign. off i cant believe that no one has suggested - are you ready for a mind-blowing idea - that you take a *voltmeter* and actually read the *voltage* at the lighter socket both with the inverter as a load and without load. it may not give you the *whole* story but it certainly would answer a lot of questions about what is going on with the voltage levels - like is there too much drop in the wire to the socket *or* is the system voltage dropping *or* is something actively *disconnecting* the socket from power *or* etc. etc. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x you need to find someone electrically and automotively knowlegeable with a voltmeter to make the tests for you. very basic test for those who know about these things. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : gary glaenzer

well jesus mary and joseph how f*cking difficult is it to reach down into the g*dd*m socket and test it or stick a probe in the wires coming off the plug and test it that way heres a hint buy your own voltmeter and learn to use it so you wont be at the mercy of idiots the voltmeter they were referring to was one that could test the voltage at the socket as the person had suggested. neither said they had a voltmeter that could test voltage at the socket though they had regular voltmeters. on sat 11 mar 2006 224128 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote yes thats a good idea. i actually asked two places out that -- a goodyear repair place and the dodge dealer service center. both said they didnt have any such voltmeter. neil wrote actually ive tested it with the engine off and it only stays on a few seconds. not sure what the batter saver function is; but if the battery is fully charged then a 90w drain shouldnt be that much for it. but the inverter shuts down after a couple of seconds with the engine off. chrysler vehicles have a battery saver function that may be shutting down the load a few minutes after killing the ignition. besides the good suggestion of others that the socket may become depowered with ign. off i cant believe that no one has suggested - are you ready for a mind-blowing idea - that you take a *voltmeter* and actually read the *voltage* at the lighter socket both with the inverter as a load and without load. it may not give you the *whole* story but it certainly would answer a lot of questions about what is going on with the voltage levels - like is there too much drop in the wire to the socket *or* is the system voltage dropping *or* is something actively *disconnecting* the socket from power *or* etc. etc. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x you need to find someone electrically and automotively knowlegeable with a voltmeter to make the tests for you. very basic test for those who know about these things. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on mon 13 mar 2006 000919 -0800 ted mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com wrote both of which need to be tested using a known good battery. wow ive said this several times now and all you engineers refuse to believe that knowing your baseline voltage is essential to finding a drop in the wiring. max and others! doesent anyone who is posting to this thread have a 2003 caravan that they could spend a few minutes with a dvm to make some measurements with to give the op something for comparisons sake ted no but i have a 2004 pontiac trans sport. when it stops raining ill connect my 300 watt invereter and my thinkpad 770 to the rear power outlet and give you all a voltage reading. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on mon 13 mar 2006 015332 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote wrong braniac it would have a proven the battery was at fault or b shown the problem to be with the inverter power outlet or wiring to that outlet either way the original poster would have had a definitive answer and a new battery which at three years on a factory battery isnt a bad idea at all. ive had batteries go bad at 3 months and ive had them last 10 years. meanwhile a bunch of guys who never set foot in a repair shop except to pick up the car will tell a bunch of us whove been doping this for years how it all works wasting time for..... days while the op doesnt have a clue how to operate a vm.... take the fucking thing to a garage and forget asking here half of us dont have a clue the other half have too much info. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on mon 13 mar 2006 030533 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote and a new battery which at three years on a factory battery isnt a bad idea at all. the factory delco battery in my 85 jeep comanche lasted 9 years so i wouldnt have considered replacing at at 1/3 of its life to be a good idea. i guess we just have different definitions of good idea. ever have a late model mopar battery ever consider that 9 years is 4 over the average life of the best lead acid battery life expectancy on the market average is the important word here - and a lot of batteries dont last 2 years. discounting infant mortality average battery lifespan is closer to 5 years. not counting those undersized delco freedom batteries of a few years back. meanwhile a bunch of guys who never set foot in a repair shop except to pick up the car will tell a bunch of us whove been doping this for years how it all works wasting time for..... days while the op doesnt have a clue how to operate a vm.... he does now as several of us have given him a few clues. you just gave him suggestions that require him to visit a repair shop. if he cant operate a vm maybe his best option is a shop. my suggestions were 1 test battery voltage 2 test port voltage as comparison 3 act accordingly. all easily done on his own if he learns to operate a vm. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : neil

i think youve hit the nail on the head here. i did the same tests with the front power outlet and the inverter didnt shut off. so the issue is with the wiring as you said. however were not out of the woods yet. i ran the same tests as noted directly below only instead of no key the key was in the acc position since the front power outlet requires that. the first three steps yielded the same results. however the fourth one with laptop on and plugged into the inverter was different. instead of a long alarm and the inverter shutting off there was a series of double-beeps from the inverter; but it stayed on. according to the faq page at the inverter manufacturers site http//www.cyberpowersystems.com/faqacmobile.asp the double-beep indicates either that - the unit may be overheating form an excessive load. try reducing the load placed on the unit. - the power supplied to the ac mobile unit may be lower than 11 volts. try starting the car to recharge the car battery. since the unit had just been plugged in it probably wasnt overheating and a 90w charger probably wasnt an excessive load for a 140w inverter. thus its probably the second one power supplied to the unit is lower than 11v. thus we have the following - from either the front or the rear power outlets i get a low voltage alarm when the invert is plugged in with no load. thus even the front power outlets not getting a lot of power. - with the laptop on and plugged in the rear outlet causes the inverter to shut down completely; the front one causes it to continuously emit a series of double-beeps indicating its not getting enough power and probably close to shutting down. thus even with the light wiring to the rear causing the problems there theres still a problem overall in that even the front power outlets not supplying enough power. a couple of other points 1 tonight i was driving with the laptop turned off but plugged into the rear power outlet. shouldnt be a problem according to tests ive done with the engine off; but with the engine on definitely shouldnt be a problem. however while stopped at a red light the inverted emitted the familiar 5-second beep and turned off indicating the power to the rear had dropped below 10.5v. unplugged the inverter and plugged it back in again and it worked fine from then on. but the fact that the power to the rear would drop to below 10.5v while the engine was on and alternator was supplying power is very disconcerting. 2 something ive noticed a couple of times in the short time ive had the car is that the headlights every once in a while will flicker off then on again once or twice within a couple of seconds and then be fine. as stated this has only happened a couple of times and i was hoping that it would just go away. but this may be related to this problem. i.e. the car may have some serious electrical problems in general. thanks for any input! neil on sat 11 mar 2006 234831 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote some more notes regarding this. with engine off i plug in the power inverter with nothing connected to inverter. get low voltage alarm 11.5v but inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop charger not connected to laptop and lights in laptop charger come on and inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop in need of charge but with laptop itself turned off to laptop charger. laptop lights show its charging and inverter stays on. i then unplug the laptop from charger while still in need of charge and turn it on. after laptop is booted i plug laptop back into charger. get a long alarm 5 seconds from inverter and it turns itself off indicating that voltage is 10.5v. thus it seems that even without a load except for the inverter its getting 11.5v. and its able to handle a small load but not the load with the laptop on. but again its only a 90w charger. and also again didnt have a problem with past two cars i had. regarding the battery itself there are my notes from the autozone battery test. 628 cold cranking amps 12.8v with alternator off 13.82 with alternator on thanks for any input. your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. your 90 watt inverter is ok. your laptop charger is ok. your laptop is ok. the wires to the back power outlet are too light for the length. get an automotive electrician to run a secondheavier wire from the fuse box back to the outlet. connect it in parallel with the original from a s close to the fuse as possible to as close to the plug as possible. cost less than a new battery and actually solve the problem. neil i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down

From : neil

actually splitter isnt necessary. the inverter has an auxiliary power outlet in case you want to plug in a cigarette lighter or cell phone or whatever in addition to the ac outlet. on sat 11 mar 2006 224722 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote see below. your troubleshooting has been fairly extensive...except for the only 2 tests that actually matter 1. what is the voltage at on the battery terminals engine on and engine off when i tested it at autozone they said the battery tested fine and it was at 12.8v. that was with a series of tests and with a load etc. so dont know the exact answer to the above question; but the battery passed the autozone tester tests. 2. what is the voltage at the interior sockets engine on and engine off thats a good question. how do i test that as noted in this thread i havent been able to find someone who has a tester for the actual sockets. if 1 is above 10.5 v engine on and below 10.5 v engine off your battery is shot...no matter what. if 1 is above 10.5 v at all times...and stays that way for a couple of minutes and 2 is above 10.5 v then a your inverter is broken or b the inverters specifications are wrong it shuts down above 10.5 v. as noted i havent had a problem with the inverter previously with my jimmy. and this is the first time im using with the caravan which i just got last week. it is also perfectly possible that both sockets in the new vehicle have been used extensivelly and are seriously corroded. this essentially places a resistor in the circuit...causing a voltage drop that depends on the current drawn by the inverter...which depends on the load on the inverter. for this clean the interiors of the sockets battery disconnected. they both look pretty clean. but id vote for poor battery performance. that would be an easy thing to rectify. does it sound like 45k miles is a reasonable amount for an original battery to fail im in texas and the summers are hot. but still it seems like it should last longer. thanks! actually ive tested it with the engine off and it only stays on a few seconds. not sure what the batter saver function is; but if the battery is fully charged then a 90w drain shouldnt be that much for it. but the inverter shuts down after a couple of seconds with the engine off. buy one of those cheap power splitters. plug the inverter into one hole and carefully connect the voltmeter to the second hole. if you want to be real safe get a cord that fits the plug and connect the voltmeter to that. buy a cheap digital voltmeter for $5. the splitter mabee another 5 and a cord mabee another 5. or salvage a cord from an old device.. or just get an extention cable and split the conductors strip 2 spots and connect the voltmeter that way. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : matt whiting

neil wrote now you are getting somewhere. matt is correct - you are getting voltage drop - pure and simple - either due to wiring resistance or some device in series that is inadvertently or intentionaly dropping voltage or limiting current sort of the same thing. you would not see the effects of this back at the battery. the voltage drop whatever the cause is seen across the cause of the drop i.e. thermistor entire length of wire or whatever. yes thats true. however as i just posted to clare the front power outlet also is not getting enough power so theres something going on besides just wiring to the rear outlet. which would lead to the other two of the three ideas i gave you. losing voltage across a silicon device that is controller power to the sockets or losing voltage across a ptc that is providing circuit overload protection. there may well be a 4th and 5th possibility but without looking at schematics i cant say what else might be possible. could also be something like a corroded ground etc. but your vehicle isnt all that old so that is less likely. is there another similar vehicle that you can try this same inverter and charger in maybe a dealer will let you try a new one on the lot. that could quickly tell you if this is a systematic problem or just a fault with your particular vehicle. matt .

From : matt whiting

max dodge wrote here is another thought to add to all the good info on how power drops in various ways in this situation if autozone tested the battery after you drove there and found 12.8 volts you need a new battery. a battery that just had a charging system pushing power into it should be over 13v maybe even close to 14v. for it to be at 12.8 after a charge cycle indicates poor ability to stand up to a load. which brings us to the load test.... doesnt sound like one was done. where did you get that information nominal voltage for a properly charged battery in good condition is 12.6v. a battery that has just been charged can read a little higher than that for a short time but will fairly quickly drop back to 12.6v or less depending on battery condition. and this is open circuit voltage. as soon as you apply a load of any significance it can drop well below 12.6 due to the internal resistance in the battery. it sounds like you are confusing charging voltage 14-14.6v with battery voltage 12.6. matt .

From : matt whiting

max dodge wrote your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. rubbish. with alt charging the system should show over 14v. second as yet no one has shown results of a load test which is the only way to find out how it works under a load. funny how that works...... the vehicle still starts using this battery. that is a pretty good load test. the starting load is so much higher than the load hes using charging his laptop that this isnt even a concern in this situation. now if the battery would run the laptop charge but not start the engine then id suggest a load test was in order but not the other way around. matt .

From : max dodge

here is another thought to add to all the good info on how power drops in various ways in this situation if autozone tested the battery after you drove there and found 12.8 volts you need a new battery. a battery that just had a charging system pushing power into it should be over 13v maybe even close to 14v. for it to be at 12.8 after a charge cycle indicates poor ability to stand up to a load. which brings us to the load test.... doesnt sound like one was done. and as gary says check the voltage at the socket with a voltmeter. this aint rocket science folks load test the battery check voltage at the power port and act accordingly. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author neil wrote i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for the power inverter and for the laptop charger are below. first you need to get a multimeter and check the actual voltage at the power outlet. i dont know how this is wired but if it is wired directly to the battery bus then it should read the same open circuit voltage as the battery. if it is running through a semiconductor swithing device such as the interior lights do then you will lose some voltage across that device 0.7v is typical for silicon if memory serves. so this would drop the nominal 12.6v open circuit at the battery to 11.9v open circuit at the power outlet. you then said this is a rear outlet so that means it may have 20 feet or so of wire. i dont know what the amp rating on the outlet is but if it isnt all that high it may be wired with fairly small gauge wire. if you are drawing 90w this yields 7.5a at a nominal 12v and could be even higher if the battery is dropping below 12v under load unlikely if the car still starts ok with this battery. does the outlet cover have a power or current rating printed on it another possibility if you happen to be exceeding the power draw of the outlet is that it may be getting shut down by a ptc or similar device. i believe chrysler uses ptcs to protect several of the body circuits. these positive temperature coefficient thermistors will increase their resistance as they heat up. they will heat up as the amperage draw of the circuit they are protecting increases. increased resistance means increased voltage drop across the ptc and thus less voltage available to the load. if the 7.5-8 amps you are drawing is anywhere near the limit of that power outlet then this could well be dropping the voltage below 10.5 volts as it heats up. and this would also account for the slight delay before your inverter shuts down. with the engine running you are likely starting out with closer to 14 volts available rather than 12 and this could well be enough to keep you above 10.5 even if the ptc were dropping a couple of volts at the current you are drawing. just some thoughts. matt .

From : max dodge

your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. rubbish. with alt charging the system should show over 14v. second as yet no one has shown results of a load test which is the only way to find out how it works under a load. funny how that works...... -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author on sat 11 mar 2006 234831 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote some more notes regarding this. with engine off i plug in the power inverter with nothing connected to inverter. get low voltage alarm 11.5v but inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop charger not connected to laptop and lights in laptop charger come on and inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop in need of charge but with laptop itself turned off to laptop charger. laptop lights show its charging and inverter stays on. i then unplug the laptop from charger while still in need of charge and turn it on. after laptop is booted i plug laptop back into charger. get a long alarm 5 seconds from inverter and it turns itself off indicating that voltage is 10.5v. thus it seems that even without a load except for the inverter its getting 11.5v. and its able to handle a small load but not the load with the laptop on. but again its only a 90w charger. and also again didnt have a problem with past two cars i had. regarding the battery itself there are my notes from the autozone battery test. 628 cold cranking amps 12.8v with alternator off 13.82 with alternator on thanks for any input. your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. your 90 watt inverter is ok. your laptop charger is ok. your laptop is ok. the wires to the back power outlet are too light for the length. get an automotive electrician to run a secondheavier wire from the fuse box back to the outlet. connect it in parallel with the original from a s close to the fuse as possible to as close to the plug as possible. cost less than a new battery and actually solve the problem. neil i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for the power inverter and for the laptop charger are below. thanks for any input! neil power inverter specs capacity 140w input voltage 12vdc dc input voltage range 10.5 - 15.8vdc output voltage nominal 120vac 5% dc voltage 12vdc cigarette jack frequency 60 hz 3% continuous output power 140w peak output power 270w laptop charger specs power provided 90 w product type power adapter type ac adapter voltage required 100 to 240 vac max output current 4.5 a max. at 4-second pulse 3.5 a continuous *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : Annonymous

in message ohrqf.146$%b.22@trndny04 max dodge wrote your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. rubbish. with alt charging the system should show over 14v. second as yet no one has shown results of a load test which is the only way to find out how it works under a load. funny how that works...... scroll down dipshit. you quoted the results of the load test. 628 cca. im pretty sure thats enough to power his little charger. the pcm will vary charge rate according to battery conditions temp etc. system voltage wouldnt necessarily be over 14v. what he needs is a voltage drop test on that rear power outlet circuit. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author on sat 11 mar 2006 234831 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote some more notes regarding this. with engine off i plug in the power inverter with nothing connected to inverter. get low voltage alarm 11.5v but inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop charger not connected to laptop and lights in laptop charger come on and inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop in need of charge but with laptop itself turned off to laptop charger. laptop lights show its charging and inverter stays on. i then unplug the laptop from charger while still in need of charge and turn it on. after laptop is booted i plug laptop back into charger. get a long alarm 5 seconds from inverter and it turns itself off indicating that voltage is 10.5v. thus it seems that even without a load except for the inverter its getting 11.5v. and its able to handle a small load but not the load with the laptop on. but again its only a 90w charger. and also again didnt have a problem with past two cars i had. regarding the battery itself there are my notes from the autozone battery test. 628 cold cranking amps 12.8v with alternator off 13.82 with alternator on thanks for any input. your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. your 90 watt inverter is ok. your laptop charger is ok. your laptop is ok. the wires to the back power outlet are too light for the length. get an automotive electrician to run a secondheavier wire from the fuse box back to the outlet. connect it in parallel with the original from a s close to the fuse as possible to as close to the plug as possible. cost less than a new battery and actually solve the problem. neil i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for the power inverter and for the laptop charger are below. thanks for any input! neil power inverter specs capacity 140w input voltage 12vdc dc input voltage range 10.5 - 15.8vdc output voltage nominal 120vac 5% dc voltage 12vdc cigarette jack frequency 60 hz 3% continuous output power 140w peak output power 270w laptop charger specs power provided 90 w product type power adapter type ac adapter voltage required 100 to 240 vac max output current 4.5 a max. at 4-second pulse 3.5 a continuous *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : neil

neil wrote now you are getting somewhere. matt is correct - you are getting voltage drop - pure and simple - either due to wiring resistance or some device in series that is inadvertently or intentionaly dropping voltage or limiting current sort of the same thing. you would not see the effects of this back at the battery. the voltage drop whatever the cause is seen across the cause of the drop i.e. thermistor entire length of wire or whatever. yes thats true. however as i just posted to clare the front power outlet also is not getting enough power so theres something going on besides just wiring to the rear outlet. which would lead to the other two of the three ideas i gave you. losing voltage across a silicon device that is controller power to the sockets or losing voltage across a ptc that is providing circuit overload protection. there may well be a 4th and 5th possibility but without looking at schematics i cant say what else might be possible. could also be something like a corroded ground etc. but your vehicle isnt all that old so that is less likely. is there another similar vehicle that you can try this same inverter and charger in maybe a dealer will let you try a new one on the lot. that could quickly tell you if this is a systematic problem or just a fault with your particular vehicle. hey thats a great idea! definitely worth a try. neil matt .

From : bill putney

neil wrote the voltmeter they were referring to was one that could test the voltage at the socket as the person had suggested. neither said they had a voltmeter that could test voltage at the socket though they had regular voltmeters. that was an excuse for lazy mechanics - very lazy mechanics. they were taking advantage of your ignorance and i dont mean that as an insult to you. to hear them youd think that to measure voltage at a battery youd need to buy one voltmeter then to read voltage at a starter youd need a special voltmeter for reading the voltage at a starter ad infinitum. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : neil

well in fairness to them in both cases i was talking to a service manager not the mechanic. so it may have been ignorance on their part and mine as well. neil neil wrote the voltmeter they were referring to was one that could test the voltage at the socket as the person had suggested. neither said they had a voltmeter that could test voltage at the socket though they had regular voltmeters. that was an excuse for lazy mechanics - very lazy mechanics. they were taking advantage of your ignorance and i dont mean that as an insult to you. to hear them youd think that to measure voltage at a battery youd need to buy one voltmeter then to read voltage at a starter youd need a special voltmeter for reading the voltage at a starter ad infinitum. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : bill putney

neil wrote ...2 something ive noticed a couple of times in the short time ive had the car is that the headlights every once in a while will flicker off then on again once or twice within a couple of seconds and then be fine... this is sometimes a problem in lh cars and when it happens it is often the result of loose power connections at the positive jump post. vibration and self heating of the high-resistance joint cause intermittent flickering of power which will only be evident to you in headlight flickering until the joint resistance gets so high that the engine will cut off or the starter wont work - starter is on a different cable but goes thru the same stud connection. i dont know if the van has this same jump post but you might check into that or other joints in the power cables. it might in fact be that youre dropping a half a volt or so consistently with momentary fluctuations again due to vibration and self-heating thru such a joint but as youve been led to believe and rightly so thats probably not the *main* problem with your power converter. the main problem is almost certainly an ohmic drop in the wire going to the socket. and i cant believe that this problem has generated a thread this long. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x

From : neil

here is another thought to add to all the good info on how power drops in various ways in this situation if autozone tested the battery after you drove there and found 12.8 volts you need a new battery. a battery that just had a charging system pushing power into it should be over 13v maybe even close to 14v. for it to be at 12.8 after a charge cycle indicates poor ability to stand up to a load. which brings us to the load test.... doesnt sound like one was done. during the test the person had me rev the engine to over 1500 rpms. not sure if thats the load test youre referring to or if its something else. neil and as gary says check the voltage at the socket with a voltmeter. this aint rocket science folks load test the battery check voltage at the power port and act accordingly. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author neil wrote i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for the power inverter and for the laptop charger are below. first you need to get a multimeter and check the actual voltage at the power outlet. i dont know how this is wired but if it is wired directly to the battery bus then it should read the same open circuit voltage as the battery. if it is running through a semiconductor swithing device such as the interior lights do then you will lose some voltage across that device 0.7v is typical for silicon if memory serves. so this would drop the nominal 12.6v open circuit at the battery to 11.9v open circuit at the power outlet. you then said this is a rear outlet so that means it may have 20 feet or so of wire. i dont know what the amp rating on the outlet is but if it isnt all that high it may be wired with fairly small gauge wire. if you are drawing 90w this yields 7.5a at a nominal 12v and could be even higher if the battery is dropping below 12v under load unlikely if the car still starts ok with this battery. does the outlet cover have a power or current rating printed on it another possibility if you happen to be exceeding the power draw of the outlet is that it may be getting shut down by a ptc or similar device. i believe chrysler uses ptcs to protect several of the body circuits. these positive temperature coefficient thermistors will increase their resistance as they heat up. they will heat up as the amperage draw of the circuit they are protecting increases. increased resistance means increased voltage drop across the ptc and thus less voltage available to the load. if the 7.5-8 amps you are drawing is anywhere near the limit of that power outlet then this could well be dropping the voltage below 10.5 volts as it heats up. and this would also account for the slight delay before your inverter shuts down. with the engine running you are likely starting out with closer to 14 volts available rather than 12 and this could well be enough to keep you above 10.5 even if the ptc were dropping a couple of volts at the current you are drawing. just some thoughts. matt .

From : steve

great crap all this thread about a stinking auxiliary power outlet sheesh! 1 measure the voltage at the outlet with the load applied. if its too low meassure at the battery. 2 if its too low at both the battery and the outlet replace the battery. 3 if its just too low at the outlet run a heavier gauge wire from the power distribution center to the power outlet. 4 stop whining. or better yet skip 1-4 above and a get a power adaptor for your laptop that doesnt need a cheeseball 120 v inverter in the first place http//us.kensington.com/html/1422.html b stop whining. .

From : tbone

neither does anyone else. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving max dodge wrote ...anytime a problem that might be related to battery load occurs the first test is the source of power to determine its capacity capability and performance under load. only when you have a known quantity as the power source can you accurately determine other issues such as voltage drop to the power port. but earlier you suggested willy-nilly replacing the battery without determining where the problem is by intelligent voltage tests. except for a shorted cell condition which is obviously not the case here for all practical purposes i.e. all but extreme system loading a weak battery will not show up with the alternator pumping out over 14 volts which the inverter should run with handily - barring voltage drops elsewhere in the system. im not following your logic. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : tbone

yea after you suggested just replacing the damn battery. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving and if thats not the problem he has a good used battery on his hands and still no farther ahead. better to buy a cheap voltmeter get a book from the library on how to use it and test it himself. learn how to do his own testing and not be at the mercy of what seems to be more commonly incompetent technicians wow exactly what i suggested 50 posts back..... -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author on sun 12 mar 2006 172957 gmt gary glaenzer glaenzer@verizon.net wrote no it was me that suggested that rather than over-analyze the situation just stick another battery in and see what happens even at 5 bucks an hour the time spent on this so far far exceeds what a battery costs and if thats not the problem he has a good used battery on his hands and still no farther ahead. better to buy a cheap voltmeter get a book from the library on how to use it and test it himself. learn how to do his own testing and not be at the mercy of what seems to be more commonly incompetent technicians *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : max dodge

where did you get that information nominal voltage for a properly charged battery in good condition is 12.6v. a battery that has just been charged can read a little higher than that for a short time but will fairly quickly drop back to 12.6v or less depending on battery condition. and this is open circuit voltage. as soon as you apply a load of any significance it can drop well below 12.6 due to the internal resistance in the battery. it sounds like you are confusing charging voltage 14-14.6v with battery voltage 12.6. not at all. as you said above a battery will be above nominal voltage if its charging. so if its just been charging and it is returning to nominal itll be above 12.8 volts...it doesnt just drop like a rock to nominal voltage. sorta like we both just said. wtf -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote here is another thought to add to all the good info on how power drops in various ways in this situation if autozone tested the battery after you drove there and found 12.8 volts you need a new battery. a battery that just had a charging system pushing power into it should be over 13v maybe even close to 14v. for it to be at 12.8 after a charge cycle indicates poor ability to stand up to a load. which brings us to the load test.... doesnt sound like one was done. where did you get that information nominal voltage for a properly charged battery in good condition is 12.6v. a battery that has just been charged can read a little higher than that for a short time but will fairly quickly drop back to 12.6v or less depending on battery condition. and this is open circuit voltage. as soon as you apply a load of any significance it can drop well below 12.6 due to the internal resistance in the battery. it sounds like you are confusing charging voltage 14-14.6v with battery voltage 12.6. matt .

From : max dodge

. 222 314256 w5xqf.3598$ub.794@trndny07 during the test the person had me rev the engine to over 1500 rpms. not sure if thats the load test youre referring to or if its something else. lol thats funny... really. revving the engine will do nothing to increase alternator output voltage; amperage maybe a little. either way its not a load test. but it does show how accurate and knowledgable the people at your particular autozone are. have a load test done elsewhere or simply replace the battery. say has anyone checked the age of this battery again its not rocket science. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author here is another thought to add to all the good info on how power drops in various ways in this situation if autozone tested the battery after you drove there and found 12.8 volts you need a new battery. a battery that just had a charging system pushing power into it should be over 13v maybe even close to 14v. for it to be at 12.8 after a charge cycle indicates poor ability to stand up to a load. which brings us to the load test.... doesnt sound like one was done. during the test the person had me rev the engine to over 1500 rpms. not sure if thats the load test youre referring to or if its something else. neil and as gary says check the voltage at the socket with a voltmeter. this aint rocket science folks load test the battery check voltage at the power port and act accordingly. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author neil wrote i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for the power inverter and for the laptop charger are below. first you need to get a multimeter and check the actual voltage at the power outlet. i dont know how this is wired but if it is wired directly to the battery bus then it should read the same open circuit voltage as the battery. if it is running through a semiconductor swithing device such as the interior lights do then you will lose some voltage across that device 0.7v is typical for silicon if memory serves. so this would drop the nominal 12.6v open circuit at the battery to 11.9v open circuit at the power outlet. you then said this is a rear outlet so that means it may have 20 feet or so of wire. i dont know what the amp rating on the outlet is but if it isnt all that high it may be wired with fairly small gauge wire. if you are drawing 90w this yields 7.5a at a nominal 12v and could be even higher if the battery is dropping below 12v under load unlikely if the car still starts ok with this battery. does the outlet cover have a power or current rating printed on it another possibility if you happen to be exceeding the power draw of the outlet is that it may be getting shut down by a ptc or similar device. i believe chrysler uses ptcs to protect several of the body circuits. these positive temperature coefficient thermistors will increase their resistance as they heat up. they will heat up as the amperage draw of the circuit they are protecting increases. increased resistance means increased voltage drop across the ptc and thus less voltage available to the load. if the 7.5-8 amps you are drawing is anywhere near the limit of that power outlet then this could well be dropping the voltage below 10.5 volts as it heats up. and this would also account for the slight delay before your in

From : bill putney

neil wrote now you are getting somewhere. matt is correct - you are getting voltage drop - pure and simple - either due to wiring resistance or some device in series that is inadvertently or intentionaly dropping voltage or limiting current sort of the same thing. you would not see the effects of this back at the battery. the voltage drop whatever the cause is seen across the cause of the drop i.e. thermistor entire length of wire or whatever. yes thats true. however as i just posted to clare the front power outlet also is not getting enough power so theres something going on besides just wiring to the rear outlet. neil yes - but the problem is less severe at the front socket - shorter wire less drop. the only way to answer anything any further is to get that voltmeter and see where your actual voltage drops are in the vehicle. keep in mind also that a cheap power inverter will not pull a constant steady current - it takes huge pulses of current at high frequency that average out to the stated steady state figure. the wires to the sockets have inductance which acts differently to high frequency pulses than pure resistance to d.c. steady state current. i cant say for sure but one solution may be to put a large capacitor right at the socket to a solid ground - that will negate the pulsing effects over the long wires to the sockets if they are in fact what are pissing off the inverter. *but* - and thats a big butt - to repeat myself youd be wise to get a voltmeter and also check the steady state d.c. drops in the chain of wires that supply the power to the load measure the drops with the load applied. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : max dodge

scroll down dipshit. you quoted the results of the load test. 628 cca. im pretty sure thats enough to power his little charger. um nope. thats the amperage available from the battery not load test dipshit. a load test will show voltage drop over a short period of time when a resistance is applied. the very simple test i have in mind wont show amperage rating of a battery dipshit. as to if itll power anything well i wouldnt have any less than 750 if i were driving accessories like that and id prefer 1000. why because of the exact situation we have here. the pcm will vary charge rate according to battery conditions temp etc. system voltage wouldnt necessarily be over 14v. immediately after charging a battery should read more than 12.8 volts. what he needs is a voltage drop test on that rear power outlet circuit. no kidding maybe thats why i suggested checking the voltage at the port and acting accordingly. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author in message ohrqf.146$%b.22@trndny04 max dodge wrote your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. rubbish. with alt charging the system should show over 14v. second as yet no one has shown results of a load test which is the only way to find out how it works under a load. funny how that works...... scroll down dipshit. you quoted the results of the load test. 628 cca. im pretty sure thats enough to power his little charger. the pcm will vary charge rate according to battery conditions temp etc. system voltage wouldnt necessarily be over 14v. what he needs is a voltage drop test on that rear power outlet circuit. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author on sat 11 mar 2006 234831 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote some more notes regarding this. with engine off i plug in the power inverter with nothing connected to inverter. get low voltage alarm 11.5v but inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop charger not connected to laptop and lights in laptop charger come on and inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop in need of charge but with laptop itself turned off to laptop charger. laptop lights show its charging and inverter stays on. i then unplug the laptop from charger while still in need of charge and turn it on. after laptop is booted i plug laptop back into charger. get a long alarm 5 seconds from inverter and it turns itself off indicating that voltage is 10.5v. thus it seems that even without a load except for the inverter its getting 11.5v. and its able to handle a small load but not the load with the laptop on. but again its only a 90w charger. and also again didnt have a problem with past two cars i had. regarding the battery itself there are my notes from the autozone battery test. 628 cold cranking amps 12.8v with alternator off 13.82 with alternator on thanks for any input. your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. your 90 watt inverter is ok. your laptop charger is ok. your laptop is ok. the wires to the back power outlet are too light for the length. get an automotive electrician to run a secondheavier wire from the fuse box back to the outlet. connect it in parallel with the original from a s close to the fuse as possible to as close to the plug as possible. cost less than a new battery and actually solve the problem. neil i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i

From : mac davis

on sat 11 mar 2006 184244 gmt fmb fmbb@sbcglobal.net wrote my inverter stays on for a few seconds after turning the truck off if it is plugged into the power outlet that doesnt get power when the key is off. i dont know if it turns on with the key on acc as i now have it plugged into a always on outlet when i use it. fmb umm... bob... the power outlet that turns off with the ignition is called a lighter not a power outlet.. *g* i have 2 inverters a plug in one for when we rent cars and a real one thats in the ram and hard wired.. both work well in our trucks but the real one has a 40 amp fuse so plugging it into a power outlet with a 20 amp fuse seems a little strange... both inverters will beep when you turn the ignition on or off but ive had the laptop running from the hardwired one for up to an hour and still had plenty of cranking power.. the plug in one turns off within 15 minutes.. my guess is that because it doesnt have an on/off switch like the other one its more sensitive to power drop mac https//home.comcast.net/mac.davis https//home.comcast.net/mac.davis/woodstuff.htm .

From : mac davis

on sun 12 mar 2006 044544 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote the voltmeter they were referring to was one that could test the voltage at the socket as the person had suggested. neither said they had a voltmeter that could test voltage at the socket though they had regular voltmeters. interesting... the voltmeter that i got at harbor freight for $10 has 2 probes...you put the red one on the middle on the power outlets little middle nipple and the black one on any ground.. maybe its proof that theres a lot of difference between rocket science and space cadet *g* if you put a meter on it id be interested to see if the voltage and amps are the same on the 2 outlets when the ignition is on.. as others have said id suspect the voltage drop to be from cheap wires... i ran wires to a 3-outlet setup in the back of the camper shell and it sucked big time.. i changed the wires that came with it for household 110v cord and they work great... i guess i was expecting drip irrigation size wires to irrigate my whole farm.. *lol* mac https//home.comcast.net/mac.davis https//home.comcast.net/mac.davis/woodstuff.htm .

From : matt whiting

max dodge wrote the vehicle still starts using this battery. that is a pretty good load test. with due respect no it is not. ive seen many cars even back in the carbureted era start just fine on a batttery that failed a load test. then so what if the battery will provide enough power to crank the car it will provide enough power to charge a laptop for more than a few seconds. two seconds of cranking the engine would likely charge the laptop battery several times over. so what do you think a load test is going to prove the starting load is so much higher than the load hes using charging his laptop that this isnt even a concern in this situation. big deal. as someone suggested perhaps the voltage drops to the port he is using..... oh yeah a bunch of us have. if the voltage is dropping this much with an 8a draw then it would drop so much with 200+a for the starter than the engine wouldnt crank. yes a bunch of you have suggested to replace the battery before doing any real troubleshooting and a bunch of you are likely wrong. now if the battery would run the laptop charge but not start the engine then id suggest a load test was in order but not the other way around. anytime a problem that might be related to battery load occurs the first test is the source of power to determine its capacity capability and performance under load. only when you have a known quantity as the power source can you accurately determine other issues such as voltage drop to the power port. this is funny. if you have an electrical problem in your house do you start troubleshooting at the power generating plant of your electrical untility anyone who thinks otherwise is a very poor tech and needs further training. anyone who suggests changing a battery before performing even the most basic checks and reviewing a schematic needs further training. matt .

From : mac davis

on sun 12 mar 2006 100838 -0500 bill putney bptn@kinez.net wrote neil wrote the voltmeter they were referring to was one that could test the voltage at the socket as the person had suggested. neither said they had a voltmeter that could test voltage at the socket though they had regular voltmeters. that was an excuse for lazy mechanics - very lazy mechanics. they were taking advantage of your ignorance and i dont mean that as an insult to you. to hear them youd think that to measure voltage at a battery youd need to buy one voltmeter then to read voltage at a starter youd need a special voltmeter for reading the voltage at a starter ad infinitum. thats pretty much how the manufacture sells tools to the dealers.. *g* oh btw were changing the setup in the onboard computer again.. youll have to buy our upgraded test equipment again.. mac https//home.comcast.net/mac.davis https//home.comcast.net/mac.davis/woodstuff.htm .

From : neil

how does one take a voltmeter and get the voltage at a car power outlet or in this case the auxiliary power outlet in the inverter i think thats clear to everyone in this thread except me. thanks. neil wrote actually splitter isnt necessary. the inverter has an auxiliary power outlet in case you want to plug in a cigarette lighter or cell phone or whatever in addition to the ac outlet. which makes the statement by the dealer that they didnt have a meter to measure voltage there even more ridiculous than first thought. as someone else pointed out they ae giving you the brush off. and it means that all you need is the meter. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : neil

in my original post i noted that its the original manufacturer battery with 45k miles on the vehicle. the dealer service manager that i spoke to brushed off the problem and said to just replace the battery that 45k miles means the battery should be replaced etc. etc. while i dont discount that it seems that i should have *some* trouble starting the car if the battery was weak. as it is the car starts easier than most cars ive driven with just a touch of the key to the starter position. have a load test done elsewhere or simply replace the battery. say has anyone checked the age of this battery again its not rocket science. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author here is another thought to add to all the good info on how power drops in various ways in this situation if autozone tested the battery after you drove there and found 12.8 volts you need a new battery. a battery that

From : max dodge

the vehicle still starts using this battery. that is a pretty good load test. with due respect no it is not. ive seen many cars even back in the carbureted era start just fine on a batttery that failed a load test. the starting load is so much higher than the load hes using charging his laptop that this isnt even a concern in this situation. big deal. as someone suggested perhaps the voltage drops to the port he is using..... oh yeah a bunch of us have. now if the battery would run the laptop charge but not start the engine then id suggest a load test was in order but not the other way around. anytime a problem that might be related to battery load occurs the first test is the source of power to determine its capacity capability and performance under load. only when you have a known quantity as the power source can you accurately determine other issues such as voltage drop to the power port. anyone who thinks otherwise is a very poor tech and needs further training. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. rubbish. with

From : bill putney

yet no one has shown results of a load test which is the only way to find out how it works under a load. funny how that works...... the vehicle still starts using this battery. that is a pretty good load test. the starting load is so much higher than the load hes using charging his laptop that this isnt even a concern in this situation. now if the battery would run the laptop charge but not start the engine then id suggest a load test was in order but not the other way around. matt . 222 314262 47j06tffg8jku1@individual.net max dodge wrote ...anytime a problem that might be related to battery load occurs the first test is the source of power to determine its capacity capability and performance under load. only when you have a known quantity as the power source can you accurately determine other issues such as voltage drop to the power port. but earlier you suggested willy-nilly replacing the battery without determining where the problem is by intelligent voltage tests. except for a shorted cell condition which is obviously not the case here for all practical purposes i.e. all but extreme system loading a weak battery will not show up with the alternator pumping out over 14 volts which the inverter should run with handily - barring voltage drops elsewhere in the system. im not following your logic. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : max dodge

but earlier you suggested willy-nilly replacing the battery without determining where the problem is by intelligent voltage tests. not at all you obviously have me confused with someone else. i did suggest that if the battery was showing 12.8v just after it had been charging that perhaps it ws time to look at replacement. but then that was an intelligent voltage test i simply suggested that the outcome wasnt used properly. except for a shorted cell condition which is obviously not the case here for all practical purposes i.e. all but extreme system loading a weak battery will not show up with the alternator pumping out over 14 volts which the inverter should run with handily - barring voltage drops elsewhere in the system. im not following your logic. my logic is very simple unlike the rest of the thread..... 1 load test battery 2 determine nominal voltage not just been charging voltage 3 determine voltage at power port 4 act accordingly sorta like i posted the first gd time. wtf is wrong with you people its a simple problem. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote ...anytime a problem that might be related to battery load occurs the first test is the source of power to determine its capacity capability and performance under load. only when you have a known quantity as the power source can you accurately determine other issues such as voltage drop to the power port. but earlier you suggested willy-nilly replacing the battery without determining where the problem is by intelligent voltage tests. except for a shorted cell condition which is obviously not the case here for all practical purposes i.e. all but extreme system loading a weak battery will not show up with the alternator pumping out over 14 volts which the inverter should run with handily - barring voltage drops elsewhere in the system. im not following your logic. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : gary glaenzer

no it was me that suggested that rather than over-analyze the situation just stick another battery in and see what happens even at 5 bucks an hour the time spent on this so far far exceeds what a battery costs max dodge wrote ...anytime a problem that might be related to battery load occurs the first test is the source of power to determine its capacity capability and performance under load. only when you have a known quantity as the power source can you accurately determine other issues such as voltage drop to the power port. but earlier you suggested willy-nilly replacing the battery without determining where the problem is by intelligent voltage tests. except for a shorted cell condition which is obviously not the case here for all practical purposes i.e. all but extreme system loading a weak battery will not show up with the alternator pumping out over 14 volts which the inverter should run with handily - barring voltage drops elsewhere in the system. im not following your logic. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : matt whiting

max dodge wrote during the test the person had me rev the engine to over 1500 rpms. not sure if thats the load test youre referring to or if its something else. lol thats funny... really. revving the engine will do nothing to increase alternator output voltage; amperage maybe a little. either way its not a load test. but it does show how accurate and knowledgable the people at your particular autozone are. sure it will. matt .

From : matt whiting

bill putney wrote max dodge wrote ...anytime a problem that might be related to battery load occurs the first test is the source of power to determine its capacity capability and performance under load. only when you have a known quantity as the power source can you accurately determine other issues such as voltage drop to the power port. but earlier you suggested willy-nilly replacing the battery without determining where the problem is by intelligent voltage tests. except for a shorted cell condition which is obviously not the case here for all practical purposes i.e. all but extreme system loading a weak battery will not show up with the alternator pumping out over 14 volts which the inverter should run with handily - barring voltage drops elsewhere in the system. im not following your logic. there is no logic to parts replacers. folks that use logic - troubleshoot. those without logic replace parts until they get lucky. matt .

From : bill putney

max dodge wrote but earlier you suggested willy-nilly replacing the battery without determining where the problem is by intelligent voltage tests. not at all you obviously have me confused with someone else. i did suggest that if the battery was showing 12.8v just after it had been charging that perhaps it ws time to look at replacement. but then that was an intelligent voltage test i simply suggested that the outcome wasnt used properly. here is what you said have a load test done elsewhere or simply replace the battery. i accept that you made that statement in the context of the 12.8v reading which i dont readily accept as indicative of a bad battery but i will take your word for it at this point. also i dont accept that a weak battery one without a shorted cell which is not indicated by the information that we have will in any way pull down a properly functioning alternator - so the fact that the op is having undervoltage issues at the socket *with* *the* *engine* *running* says to me that this particular problem is *not* caused by the battery - it is a voltage drop somewhere else in the system supplying power to the socket. except for a shorted cell condition which is obviously not the case here for all practical purposes i.e. all but extreme system loading a weak battery will not show up with the alternator pumping out over 14 volts which the inverter should run with handily - barring voltage drops elsewhere in the system. im not following your logic. my logic is very simple unlike the rest of the thread..... 1 load test battery 2 determine nominal voltage not just been charging voltage 3 determine voltage at power port 4 act accordingly sorta like i posted the first gd time. except i still take exception with you that a weak non-shorted cell battery would explain an undervoltage condition with the engine running and a working alternator. not to say his battery isnt bad or weak but it aint causing this particular problem with the engine running. wtf is wrong with you people its a simple problem. also - let the record show that well into this thread i was the very first person to make the obvious suggestion of actually using a voltmeter to measure the voltage *at* *the* *socket* - not gary not that it matters but.... bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : bill putney

neil wrote how does one take a voltmeter and get the voltage at a car power outlet or in this case the auxiliary power outlet in the inverter i think thats clear to everyone in this thread except me. there are two terminals that you need to touch the voltmeter leads to with it in at least the 20 volt range. the shell of the socket is one terminal the button deep in the center is the other terminal - dont let the same single piece of metal a voltmeter lead tip touch both terminals at the same time or youll blow a fuse or over heat some wires. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : max dodge

how does one take a voltmeter and get the voltage at a car power outlet or in this case the auxiliary power outlet in the inverter i think thats clear to everyone in this thread except me. two probes one red one black. put the red on the positive contact and the black on the negative contact. if your meter reads negative numbers simply reverse the probes. beyond that im not sure what you are asking. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author how does one take a voltmeter and get the voltage at a car power outlet or in this case the auxiliary power outlet in the inverter i think thats clear to everyone in this thread except me. thanks. neil wrote actually splitter isnt necessary. the inverter has an auxiliary power outlet in case you want to plug in a cigarette lighter or cell phone or whatever in addition to the ac outlet. which makes the statement by the dealer that they didnt have a meter to measure voltage there even more ridiculous than first thought. as someone else pointed out they ae giving you the brush off. and it means that all you need is the meter. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : bill putney

neil wrote in my original post i noted that its the original manufacturer battery with 45k miles on the vehicle. the dealer service manager that i spoke to brushed off the problem and said to just replace the battery that 45k miles means the battery should be replaced etc. etc. while i dont discount that it seems that i should have *some* trouble starting the car if the battery was weak. as it is the car starts easier than most cars ive driven with just a touch of the key to the starter position. your battery may or may not be wearing out but if your inverter is having an undervoltage problem with the engine running i.e. alternator putting out 14+ volts then the battery is *not* causing this problem that could only happen if the battery had one or more shorted cells and were pulling the alternator down - we have no indication whatsoever that your battery has a shorted cell. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : max dodge

pushing power into it should be over 13v maybe even close to 14v. for it to be at 12.8 after a charge cycle indicates poor ability to stand up to a load. which brings us to the load test.... doesnt sound like one was done. during the test the person had me rev the engine to over 1500 rpms. not sure if thats the load test youre referring to or if its something else. neil and as gary says check the voltage at the socket with a voltmeter. this aint rocket science folks load test the battery check voltage at the power port and act accordingly. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author neil wrote i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for the power inverter and for the laptop charger are below. first you need to get a multimeter and check the actual voltage at the power outlet. i dont know how this is wired but if it is wired directly to the battery bus then it should read the same open circuit voltage as the battery. if it is running through a semiconductor swithing device such as the interior lights do then you will lose some voltage across that device 0.7v is typical for silicon if memory serves. so this would drop the nominal 12.6v open circuit at the battery to 11.9v open circuit at the power outlet. you then said this is a rear outlet so that means it may have 20 feet or so of wire. i dont know what the amp rating on the outlet is but if it isnt all that high it may be wired with fairly small gauge wire. if you are drawing 90w this yields 7.5a at a nominal 12v and could be even higher if the battery is dropping below 12v under load unlikely if the car still starts ok with this battery. does the outlet cover have a power or current rating printed on it another possibility if you happen to be exceeding the power draw of the outlet is that it may be getting shut down by a ptc or similar device. i believe chrysler uses ptcs to protect several of the body circuits. these positive temperature coefficient thermistors will increase their resistance as they heat up. they will heat up as the amperage draw of the circuit they are protecting increases. increased resistance means increased voltage drop across the ptc and thus less voltage available to the load. if the 7.5-8 amps you are drawing is anywhere near the limit of that power outlet then this could well be dropping the voltage below 10.5 volts as it heats up. and this would also account for the slight delay before your inverter shuts down. with the engine running you are likely starting out with closer to 14 volts available rather than 12 and this could well be enough to keep you above 10.5 even if the ptc were dropping a couple of volts at the current you are drawing. just some thoughts. matt . 222 314275 ijqf.902$vb.416@trndny01 revving the engine will do nothing to increase alternator output voltage; amperage maybe a little. either way its not a load test. but it does show how accurate and knowledgable the people at your particular autozone are. sure it will. nope. why a silly little thing known as a voltage regulator. been on vehicles for over half a century now. amperage on the other hand may be increased slightly if you rev the engine but it depends on the system and how much draw there is. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge

From : max dodge

then so what if the battery will provide enough power to crank the car it will provide enough power to charge a laptop for more than a few seconds. two seconds of cranking the engine would likely charge the laptop battery several times over. so what do you think a load test is going to prove more rubbish. cranking the engine is not a computer monitored function. thus you can crank the engine till the battery dies. the invertor otoh monitors power draw to confirm that it will have constant voltage/amperage so as to not mess with stuff like a laptop. if the invertor finds a drop itll shut down. a load test will prove that a battery is capable of handling any load on it as well as noting condition. its a basic test and is the first again wtf test one should do in diagnosing an electrical system problem. big deal. as someone suggested perhaps the voltage drops to the port he is using..... oh yeah a bunch of us have. if the voltage is dropping this much with an 8a draw then it would drop so much with 200+a for the starter than the engine wouldnt crank. yes a bunch of you have suggested to replace the battery before doing any real troubleshooting and a bunch of you are likely wrong. bullshit. i defy you to find a post of mine where i said replace the battery before testing it. second as i discussed above the starter doesnt care how much it draws on the battery nor does the ecm until it hits 10.5v at which point the injectors will not fire. the invertor otoh will at least should cut power it if finds an anomoly which threatens the delicate electronics it is feeding. anytime a problem that might be related to battery load occurs the first test is the source of power to determine its capacity capability and performance under load. only when you have a known quantity as the power source can you accurately determine other issues such as voltage drop to the power port. this is funny. if you have an electrical problem in your house do you start troubleshooting at the power generating plant of your electrical untility no i start at the load center on the wall you know the big grey box where all the circuit breakers are. same box has the big ass cable coming in from the street that feeds the house. so yes i do check the power source in troubleshooting a home electrical problem as well. what part of this is so hard to understand check the source to be sure you have acceptable power coming into the system. anyone who thinks otherwise is a very poor tech and needs further training. anyone who suggests changing a battery before performing even the most basic checks and reviewing a schematic needs further training. well since i didnt suggest changing the battery before tests perhaps i will suggest you learn to read what ive posted. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote the vehicle still starts using this battery. that is a pretty good load test. with due respect no it is not. ive seen many cars even back in the carbureted era start just fine on a batttery that failed a load test. then so what if the battery will provide enough power to crank the car it will provide enough power to charge a laptop for more than a few seconds. two seconds of cranking the engine would likely charge the laptop battery several times over. so what do you think a load test is going to prove the starting load is so much higher than the load hes using charging his laptop that this isnt even a concern in this situation. big deal. as someone suggested perhaps the voltage drops to the port he is using..... oh yeah a bunch of us have. if the voltage is dropping this much with an 8a draw then it would drop so much with 200+a for the starter than the engine wouldnt crank. yes a bunch of you have suggested to replace the battery before doing any real troubleshooting and a bunch of you are likely wrong. now if the battery would run the laptop charge but not start the engine then id suggest a load test was in order but not the other way around. anytime a problem that might be related to battery load occurs the first test is the source of power to determine its capacity capability and performance under load. only when you have a known quantity as the power source can you accurately determine other issues such as voltage drop to the power port. this is funny. if you have an electrical problem in your house do you start troubleshooting at the power generating plant of your electrical untility anyone who thinks otherwise is a very poor tech and needs further training. anyone who suggests changing a battery before performing even the most basic checks and reviewing a schematic needs further training. matt .

From : max dodge

mopar batteries have been known to go bad at 3 years or last as many as 6. as i stated to another poster its quite possible that the invertor is more sensitive to voltage drop than the starter. a starter will crank as long as you hold the key since it does not monitor voltage. again test the power port with a meter and youll know if the voltage is enough to trip the invertor or not. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author in my original post i noted that its the original manufacturer battery with 45k miles on the vehicle. the dealer service manager that i spoke to brushed off the problem and said to just replace the battery that 45k miles means the battery should be replaced etc. etc. while i dont discount that it seems that i should have *some* trouble starting the car if the battery was weak. as it is the car starts easier than most cars ive driven with just a touch of the key to the starter position. have a load test done elsewhere or simply replace the battery. say has anyone checked the age of this battery again its not rocket science. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author here is another thought to add to all the good info on how power drops in various ways in this situation if autozone tested the battery after you drove there and found 12.8 volts you need a new battery. a battery that just had a charging system pushing power into it should be over 13v maybe even close to 14v. for it to be at 12.8 after a charge cycle indicates poor ability to stand up to a load. which brings us to the load test.... doesnt sound like one was done. during the test the person had me rev the engine to over 1500 rpms. not sure if thats the load test youre referring to or if its something else. neil and as gary says check the voltage at the socket with a voltmeter. this aint rocket science folks load test the battery check voltage at the power port and act accordingly. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author neil wrote i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for the power inverter and for the laptop charger are below. first you need to get a multimeter and check the actual voltage at the power outlet. i dont know how this is wired but if it is wired directly to the battery bus then it should read the same open circuit voltage as the battery. if it is running through a semiconductor swithing device such as the interior lights do then you will lose some voltage across that device 0.7v is typical for silicon if memory serves. so this would drop the nominal 12.6v open circuit at the battery to 11.9v open circuit at the power outlet. you then said this is a rear outlet so that means it may have 20 feet or so of wire. i dont know what the amp rating on the outlet is but if it isnt all that high it may be wired with fairly small gauge wire. if you are drawing 90w this yields 7.5a at a nominal 12v and could be even higher if the battery is dropping below 12v under load unlikely if the car still starts ok with this battery. does the outlet cover have a power or current rating printed on it another possibility if you happen to be exceeding the power draw of the outlet is that it may be getting shut down by a ptc or similar device. i

From : bill putney

max dodge wrote revving the engine will do nothing to increase alternator output voltage; amperage maybe a little. either way its not a load test. but it does show how accurate and knowledgable the people at your particular autozone are. sure it will. nope. why a silly little thing known as a voltage regulator. been on vehicles for over half a century now. a regulator cannot force an alternator to put out full regulated voltage if the alternator is not turning fast enough - often the case at idle on vehicles with typical loads turned on. amperage on the other hand may be increased slightly if you rev the engine but it depends on the system and how much draw there is. no - amperage will not be increased *if* the voltage is already at full regulation before reving it up which in many/most vehicles at idle it is not. at full regulated voltage amperage is whatever the loads are that are on. for a given load the *only* time amperage will increase with reving is if the voltage were low i.e. not into full regulation before reving. reving it up usually no more than 1000 0r 1200 rpm with typical light loads ensures that it is getting the regulator into full regulation i.e. max. regulated voltage. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : bill putney

max dodge wrote bullshit. i defy you to find a post of mine where i said replace the battery before testing it... check your post of 1027 this morning have a load test done elsewhere or simply replace the battery.. what do i win! ...well since i didnt suggest changing the battery before tests perhaps i will suggest you learn to read what ive posted. nay nay. see above. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : max dodge

mopar batteries have been known to go bad at 3 years or last as many as 6. as i stated to another poster its quite possible that the invertor is more sensitive to voltage drop than the starter. a starter will crank as long as you hold the key since it does not monitor voltage. again test the power port with a meter and youll know if the voltage is enough to trip the invertor or not. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author in my original post i noted that its the original manufacturer battery with 45k miles on the vehicle. the dealer service manager that i spoke to brushed off the problem and said to just replace the battery that 45k miles means the battery should be replaced etc. etc. while i dont discount that it seems that i should have *some* trouble starting the car if the battery was weak. as it is the car starts easier than most cars ive driven with just a touch of the key to the starter position. have a load test done elsewhere or simply replace the battery. say has anyone checked the age of this battery again its not rocket science. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author here is another thought to add to all the good info on how power drops in various ways in this situation if autozone tested the battery after you drove there and found 12.8 volts you need a new battery. a battery that just had a charging system pushing power into it should be over 13v maybe even close to 14v. for it to be at 12.8 after a charge cycle indicates poor ability to stand up to a load. which brings us to the load test.... doesnt sound like one was done. during the test the person had me rev the engine to over 1500 rpms. not sure if thats the load test youre referring to or if its something else. neil and as gary says check the voltage at the socket with a voltmeter. this aint rocket science folks load test the battery check voltage at the power port and act accordingly. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author neil wrote i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for the power inverter and for the laptop charger are below. first you need to get a multimeter and check the actual voltage at the power outlet. i dont know how this is wired but if it is wired directly to the battery bus then it should read the same open circuit voltage as the battery. if it is running through a semiconductor swithing device such as the interior lights do then you will lose some voltage across that device 0.7v is typical for silicon if memory serves. so this would drop the nominal 12.6v open circuit at the battery to 11.9v open circuit at the power outlet. you then said this is a rear outlet so that means it may have 20 feet or so of wire. i dont know what the amp rating on the outlet is but if it isnt all that high it may be wired with fairly small gauge wire. if you are drawing 90w this yields 7.5a at a nominal 12v and could be even higher if the battery is dropping below 12v under load unlikely if the car still starts ok with this battery. does the outlet cover have a power or current rating printed on it another possibility if you happen to be exceeding the power draw of the outlet is that it may be getting shut down by a ptc or similar device. i

From : clare at snyder on ca

on sun 12 mar 2006 151917 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote well in fairness to them in both cases i was talking to a service manager not the mechanic. so it may have been ignorance on their part and mine as well. neil the ignorance of a dealer principal who would hire anybody except a good mechanic as service manager. too many hire salesmen instead of mechanics - cant for the life of me figure out why that from a mechanic who spent 10 years as service manager neil wrote the voltmeter they were referring to was one that could test the voltage at the socket as the person had suggested. neither said they had a voltmeter that could test voltage at the socket though they had regular voltmeters. that was an excuse for lazy mechanics - very lazy mechanics. they were taking advantage of your ignorance and i dont mean that as an insult to you. to hear them youd think that to measure voltage at a battery youd need to buy one voltmeter then to read voltage at a starter youd need a special voltmeter for reading the voltage at a starter ad infinitum. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on sat 11 mar 2006 212808 -0800 ted mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com wrote yes thats a good idea. i actually asked two places out that -- a goodyear repair place and the dodge dealer service center. both said they didnt have any such voltmeter. they are ususally called voltohmmeters or dvms and that is bullshit since the drb scanner that all dodge dealers have can make voltage measurements. besides that harbor freight puts them on sale for under $5 all the time. this is a basic electrical test instrument and any automotive service place that would say that i would question their competence. they are probably telling you that as a go away and stop bothering me kid kind of response. testing system voltage with a voltmeter is a required part of checking a charging system before installing a replacement battery. ted and proper use of a voltmeter is required skill for troubleshooting any electrical problem on an automobile. checking voltage drops is a skill every mechanic should be taught - until it is second nature. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : max dodge

they are more accurate than a load test. terrific! then i repeat 12.6 volts is too low. as we know 2.2 volts per cell comes up at 13.2v therefore the battery is bad. sorta what i suggested before and then suggested he have it retested or simply replace it if a retest was not an option. but hey my facts are crap.... although they seem remarkably the same as yours.... -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author on sun 12 mar 2006 085028 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. rubbish. with alt charging the system should show over 14v. second as yet no one has shown results of a load test which is the only way to find out how it works under a load. funny how that works...... auto zone and most battery retailers use a transconductance tester such as a midtronics tester to test batteries. most battery suppliers require the battery to be tested on one before replacement. it can test a battery that is 3/4 discharged accurately. if a midtronics tester says the battery is shot its shot. if it says its good 99.9% of the time its good. the only exception is an intermittent intercel connector which may test perfectly good once and read 100% dead even with a voltmeter the next. ive seen that happen only once. they are more accurate than a load test. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : max dodge

here is what you said have a load test done elsewhere or simply replace the battery. i accept that you made that statement in the context of the 12.8v reading which i dont readily accept as indicative of a bad battery but i will take your word for it at this point. 12.8v just after charging indicates to me that nominal after a cool down might be lower than the invertor wants to see. however as you admit i did suggest another load test prior to simply replacing it this predicated on the difficulty/cost of getting a second more accurate test. also i dont accept that a weak battery one without a shorted cell which is not indicated by the information that we have will in any way pull down a properly functioning alternator - so the fact that the op is having undervoltage issues at the socket *with* *the* *engine* *running* says to me that this particular problem is *not* caused by the battery - it is a voltage drop somewhere else in the system supplying power to the socket. this according to the original post when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. ....indicates to me that the problem is in engine off mode. as such its a battery problem. my logic is very simple unlike the rest of the thread..... 1 load test battery 2 determine nominal voltage not just been charging voltage 3 determine voltage at power port 4 act accordingly sorta like i posted the first gd time. except i still take exception with you that a weak non-shorted cell battery would explain an undervoltage condition with the engine running and a working alternator. not to say his battery isnt bad or weak but it aint causing this particular problem with the engine running. engine is not running. wtf also - let the record show that well into this thread i was the very first person to make the obvious suggestion of actually using a voltmeter to measure the voltage *at* *the* *socket* - not gary not that it matters but.... and you are the first person that seems to think that the engine runs while its off..... please check the op if you doubt my words above. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote but earlier you suggested willy-nilly replacing the battery without determining where the problem is by intelligent voltage tests. not at all you obviously have me confused with someone else. i did suggest that if the battery was showing 12.8v just after it had been charging that perhaps it ws time to look at replacement. but then that was an intelligent voltage test i simply suggested that the outcome wasnt used properly. here is what you said have a load test done elsewhere or simply replace the battery. i accept that you made that statement in the context of the 12.8v reading which i dont readily accept as indicative of a bad battery but i will take your word for it at this point. also i dont accept that a weak battery one without a shorted cell which is not indicated by the information that we have will in any way pull down a properly functioning alternator - so the fact that the op is having undervoltage issues at the socket *with* *the* *engine* *running* says to me that this particular problem is *not* caused by the battery - it is a voltage drop somewhere else in the system supplying power to the socket. except for a shorted cell condition which is obviously not the case here for all practical purposes i.e. all but extreme system loading a weak battery will not show up with the alternator pumping out over 14 volts which the inverter should run with handily - barring voltage drops elsewhere in the system. im not following your logic. my logic is very simple unlike the rest of the thread..... 1 load test battery 2 determine nominal voltage not just been charging voltage 3 determine voltage at power port 4 act accordingly sorta like i posted the first gd time. except i still take exception with you that a weak non-shorted cell battery would explain an undervoltage condition with the engine running and a working alternator. not to say his battery isnt bad or weak but it aint causing this particular problem with the engine running. wtf is wrong with you people its a simple problem. also - let the record show that well into this thread i was the very first person to make the obvious suggestion of actually using a voltmeter to measure the voltage *at* *the* *socket* - not gary not that it matters but.... bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : max dodge

yep and do you know how they work they dont hold voltage exactly. ya sure about that the new ones are pretty good..... amperage on the other hand may be increased slightly if you rev the engine but it depends on the system and how much draw there is. how does the amperage vary if you hold the voltage constant um.... do i need to explain load here again ever drive a car with an ammeter -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote revving the engine will do nothing to increase alternator output voltage; amperage maybe a little. either way its not a load test. but it does show how accurate and knowledgable the people at your particular autozone are. sure it will. nope. why a silly little thing known as a voltage regulator. been on vehicles for over half a century now. yep and do you know how they work they dont hold voltage exactly. amperage on the other hand may be increased slightly if you rev the engine but it depends on the system and how much draw there is. how does the amperage vary if you hold the voltage constant matt .

From : tbone

is it costing him anything to ask in the group. actually it is helping;ping him to learn some basic troubleshooting which is far more than he would have gotten just replacing the battery especially when it is obvious that the battery is not the problem. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving bill putney wrote max dodge wrote ...anytime a problem that might be related to battery load occurs the first test is the source of power to determine its capacity capability and performance under load. only when you have a known quantity as the power source can you accurately determine other issues such as voltage drop to the power port. but earlier you suggested willy-nilly replacing the battery without determining where the problem is by intelligent voltage tests. except for a shorted cell condition which is obviously not the case here for all practical purposes i.e. all but extreme system loading a weak battery will not show up with the alternator pumping out over 14 volts which the inverter should run with handily - barring voltage drops elsewhere in the system. im not following your logic. there is no logic to parts replacers. folks that use logic - troubleshoot. those without logic replace parts until they get lucky. in this case two full days have been wasted farting around and 10 minutes spent replacing the battery which is alread three years old would have given a definitive answer .

From : bill putney

max dodge wrote here is what you said have a load test done elsewhere or simply replace the battery. i accept that you made that statement in the context of the 12.8v reading which i dont readily accept as indicative of a bad battery but i will take your word for it at this point. 12.8v just after charging indicates to me that nominal after a cool down might be lower than the invertor wants to see. however as you admit i did suggest another load test prior to simply replacing it this predicated on the difficulty/cost of getting a second more accurate test. also i dont accept that a weak battery one without a shorted cell which is not indicated by the information that we have will in any way pull down a properly functioning alternator - so the fact that the op is having undervoltage issues at the socket *with* *the* *engine* *running* says to me that this particular problem is *not* caused by the battery - it is a voltage drop somewhere else in the system supplying power to the socket. this according to the original post when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. that was pretty sneaky and dishonest! heres the complete sentence the beginning of which you conveniently left out when the engine is running emphasis added the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. ...indicates to me that the problem is in engine off mode. as such its a battery problem. well since you misread the op and now cant admit that you need to read it correctly now and re-think your position. with the engine off all bets are off on the inverter running with some finite line drop and nominal non-charging battery voltage. whether the inverter runs properly with the engine off should not be a concern. ...except i still take exception with you that a weak non-shorted cell battery would explain an undervoltage condition with the engine running and a working alternator. not to say his battery isnt bad or weak but it aint causing this particular problem with the engine running. engine is not running. wtf not before you applied your sleight-of-hand to the ops orignal post. also - let the record show that well into this thread i was the very first person to make the obvious suggestion of actually using a voltmeter to measure the voltage *at* *the* *socket* - not gary not that it matters but.... and you are the first person that seems to think that the engine runs while its off..... please check the op if you doubt my words above. no - you are the first to pretend that it is off when it is in fact running in which case the inverter works - according to the op. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on sun 12 mar 2006 060434 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote actually splitter isnt necessary. the inverter has an auxiliary power outlet in case you want to plug in a cigarette lighter or cell phone or whatever in addition to the ac outlet. if the inverter you have has that feature its a real no-brainer. not all do. mine has exposed binding post type connectors that make it real easy to check as well but a lot of the sub-150 watt units are simply hard-wired and no connections are accessible. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : gary glaenzer

max dodge wrote during the test the person had me rev the engine to over 1500 rpms. not sure if thats the load test youre referring to or if its something else. lol thats funny... really. revving the engine will do nothing to increase alternator output voltage; amperage maybe a little. either way its not a load test. but it does show how accurate and knowledgable the people at your particular autozone are. sure it will. keep digging boy ever heard of a voltage regulator .

From : gary glaenzer

bill putney wrote max dodge wrote ...anytime a problem that might be related to battery load occurs the first test is the source of power to determine its capacity capability and performance under load. only when you have a known quantity as the power source can you accurately determine other issues such as voltage drop to the power port. but earlier you suggested willy-nilly replacing the battery without determining where the problem is by intelligent voltage tests. except for a shorted cell condition which is obviously not the case here for all practical purposes i.e. all but extreme system loading a weak battery will not show up with the alternator pumping out over 14 volts which the inverter should run with handily - barring voltage drops elsewhere in the system. im not following your logic. there is no logic to parts replacers. folks that use logic - troubleshoot. those without logic replace parts until they get lucky. in this case two full days have been wasted farting around and 10 minutes spent replacing the battery which is alread three years old would have given a definitive answer .

From : neil

and at the risk of sounding ignorant which i am but i dont want to sound that way - which lead goes to which terminal or does it matter neil wrote how does one take a voltmeter and get the voltage at a car power outlet or in this case the auxiliary power outlet in the inverter i think thats clear to everyone in this thread except me. there are two terminals that you need to touch the voltmeter leads to with it in at least the 20 volt range. the shell of the socket is one terminal the button deep in the center is the other terminal - dont let the same single piece of metal a voltmeter lead tip touch both terminals at the same time or youll blow a fuse or over heat some wires. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on sun 12 mar 2006 172957 gmt gary glaenzer glaenzer@verizon.net wrote no it was me that suggested that rather than over-analyze the situation just stick another battery in and see what happens even at 5 bucks an hour the time spent on this so far far exceeds what a battery costs and if thats not the problem he has a good used battery on his hands and still no farther ahead. better to buy a cheap voltmeter get a book from the library on how to use it and test it himself. learn how to do his own testing and not be at the mercy of what seems to be more commonly incompetent technicians *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on sun 12 mar 2006 155735 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote the vehicle still starts using this battery. that is a pretty good load test. with due respect no it is not. ive seen many cars even back in the carbureted era start just fine on a batttery that failed a load test. the starting load is so much higher than the load hes using charging his laptop that this isnt even a concern in this situation. big deal. as someone suggested perhaps the voltage drops to the port he is using..... oh yeah a bunch of us have. now if the battery would run the laptop charge but not start the engine then id suggest a load test was in order but not the other way around. anytime a problem that might be related to battery load occurs the first test is the source of power to determine its capacity capability and performance under load. only when you have a known quantity as the power source can you accurately determine other issues such as voltage drop to the power port. anyone who thinks otherwise is a very poor tech and needs further training. max what you are advocating i hope is a battery reserve test. simple way to do it with no fancy equipment is to measure open circuit coltage with the engine shut off should read above 12 volts - 12.6 is theoretical full charge 2.2 volts per cell. to stabilize the battery and draw off the surface charge crank the starter for a couple seconds. and then turn the headlights on low beam for one minute and read the battery voltage with the lights on. it should hold 12 volts. if you leave the lights on for 3 or more minutes and the battery voltagesags to 11.6 more or less you want to do a recovery test which means shut off the lights wait one minute and recheck voltage. it should be back to a minimum of 12 volts. if it passes these tests and does not drop below 10.5 volts when cranking the battery is functional and is not causing the problem. it may still not be good but it is not the problem - and since starting after sitting a couple days isnt a problem either the battery is good. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : neil

the only indication i have of that is that the inverter shut off the other day while i was driving the car and stopped at a red light while the computer was off normally both front and rear outlets work with the computer off but charging. this was with the rear outlet. so yes maybe the battery was pulling down the alternator. or maybe the regular fluctuations of the inverter caused the power to drop enough for it to shut off. either way not good. neil wrote in my original post i noted that its the original manufacturer battery with 45k miles on the vehicle. the dealer service manager that i spoke to brushed off the problem and said to just replace the battery that 45k miles means the battery should be replaced etc. etc. while i dont discount that it seems that i should have *some* trouble starting the car if the battery was weak. as it is the car starts easier than most cars ive driven with just a touch of the key to the starter position. your battery may or may not be wearing out but if your inverter is having an undervoltage problem with the engine running i.e. alternator putting out 14+ volts then the battery is *not* causing this problem that could only happen if the battery had one or more shorted cells and were pulling the alternator down - we have no indication whatsoever that your battery has a shorted cell. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on sun 12 mar 2006 200636 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote here is what you said have a load test done elsewhere or simply replace the battery. i accept that you made that statement in the context of the 12.8v reading which i dont readily accept as indicative of a bad battery but i will take your word for it at this point. 12.8v just after charging indicates to me that nominal after a cool down might be lower than the invertor wants to see. however as you admit i did suggest another load test prior to simply replacing it this predicated on the difficulty/cost of getting a second more accurate test. also i dont accept that a weak battery one without a shorted cell which is not indicated by the information that we have will in any way pull down a properly functioning alternator - so the fact that the op is having undervoltage issues at the socket *with* *the* *engine* *running* says to me that this particular problem is *not* caused by the battery - it is a voltage drop somewhere else in the system supplying power to the socket. this according to the original post when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. ...indicates to me that the problem is in engine off mode. as such its a battery problem. no max - it is 99.9% sure not a battery problem. it is a wiring problem. not knowing the wiring schema on the caravan intimately id say either a bad body ground has been a problem on chryslers or a bad connection in the distribution system or an undersized wire. all 3 are very possible and the booster post mentioned by another poster would be the second place to check if it has one after the body ground from my experience. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on sun 12 mar 2006 194544 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote no i start at the load center on the wall you know the big grey box where all the circuit breakers are. same box has the big ass cable coming in from the street that feeds the house. so yes i do check the power source in troubleshooting a home electrical problem as well. what part of this is so hard to understand check the source to be sure you have acceptable power coming into the system. anyone who thinks otherwise is a very poor tech and needs further training. anyone who suggests changing a battery before performing even the most basic checks and reviewing a schematic needs further training. well since i didnt suggest changing the battery before tests perhaps i will suggest you learn to read what ive posted. actually max would you not check power at the outlet first to see if it is a power problem atall or a device problem i would. if the voltage at the outlet is ok under load no use going to the panel. if it is low at the outlet check at the breaker. if ok at the breaker bad wiring if low at the breaker check the line side of the breaker. if ok there replace the breaker. if low at the line side check at the main breaker. if ok there you have a panel problem. always check from the known problem back not from the known good forward. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on sun 12 mar 2006 183544 gmt matt whiting whiting@epix.net wrote max dodge wrote during the test the person had me rev the engine to over 1500 rpms. not sure if thats the load test youre referring to or if its something else. lol thats funny... really. revving the engine will do nothing to increase alternator output voltage; amperage maybe a little. either way its not a load test. but it does show how accurate and knowledgable the people at your particular autozone are. sure it will. matt remember this is max speaking. doesnt have to make sense or be based on fact. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : fmb

on sat 11 mar 2006 184244 gmt fmb fmbb@sbcglobal.net wrote umm... bob... the power outlet that turns off with the ignition is called a lighter not a power outlet.. *g* crap mac this thread sure turned into a zoo. i call them all power outlets cause that is how i use them. i have 3; two on the dash one is switched by the key and one in the center seat back storage area. that is where i keep my inverter that runs various chargers. on our trip last year it kept 2 video cameras and 2 puters charged up and running. now you made me rtfm. i now know the mechanical differences in the two types of recepticals; the cigar lighter has clips near the bottom to hold the lighter the power outlets do not. more than i needed to know but im bored today. waiting for u-joints i have 2 inverters a plug in one for when we rent cars and a real one thats in the ram and hard wired.. what did you get for a hardwired one where did you mount it and do you have outlets seperate from the inverter the plug in one turns off within 15 minutes.. my guess is that because it doesnt have an on/off switch like the other one its more sensitive to power drop i dunno my inverter will stay on inside the center seat back 24/7 for days and has when i forget about it. fmb .

From : matt whiting

neil wrote in my original post i noted that its the original manufacturer battery with 45k miles on the vehicle. the dealer service manager that i spoke to brushed off the problem and said to just replace the battery that 45k miles means the battery should be replaced etc. etc. while i dont discount that it seems that i should have *some* trouble starting the car if the battery was weak. as it is the car starts easier than most cars ive driven with just a touch of the key to the starter position. that is a cluelss service manager. ive had batteries last less than 3 years and 40000 miles and ive had batteries last 9 years and over 100000 miles. you simply cant judge battery condition by age or mileage alone. matt .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on sun 12 mar 2006 191325 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote how does one take a voltmeter and get the voltage at a car power outlet or in this case the auxiliary power outlet in the inverter i think thats clear to everyone in this thread except me. thanks. neil wrote actually splitter isnt necessary. the inverter has an auxiliary power outlet in case you want to plug in a cigarette lighter or cell phone or whatever in addition to the ac outlet. which makes the statement by the dealer that they didnt have a meter to measure voltage there even more ridiculous than first thought. as someone else pointed out they ae giving you the brush off. and it means that all you need is the meter. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x put the red lead on the little contact in the middle of the outlet and the black lead on the outer contact or any good chassis ground. that simple. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : matt whiting

neil wrote how does one take a voltmeter and get the voltage at a car power outlet or in this case the auxiliary power outlet in the inverter i think thats clear to everyone in this thread except me. it depends on the outlet design and i havent looked into one in a minivan in some time. however most are similar. typically you will see a contact in the center bottom of the outlet which is typically the positive + terminal and then the outer body of the outlet is the negative - terminal. take your dvm multimeter or voltmeter and touch the red + probe against the contact in the bottom center of the outlet and then touch the black - probe against the shell of the outlet which is all grounded. this will show the open circuit voltage of the outlet. to measure the voltage under load you will need a splitter as someone else already measured. be sure that your meter is set on dc and for the proper range to read 10-14v. many of the new dvms are auto ranging so all you have to do is select the dc range and you are good to go. matt .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on sun 12 mar 2006 054937 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote i think youve hit the nail on the head here. i did the same tests with the front power outlet and the inverter didnt shut off. so the issue is with the wiring as you said. however were not out of the woods yet. i ran the same tests as noted directly below only instead of no key the key was in the acc position since the front power outlet requires that. the first three steps yielded the same results. however the fourth one with laptop on and plugged into the inverter was different. instead of a long alarm and the inverter shutting off there was a series of double-beeps from the inverter; but it stayed on. according to the faq page at the inverter manufacturers site http//www.cyberpowersystems.com/faqacmobile.asp the double-beep indicates either that - the unit may be overheating form an excessive load. try reducing the load placed on the unit. - the power supplied to the ac mobile unit may be lower than 11 volts. try starting the car to recharge the car battery. since the unit had just been plugged in it probably wasnt overheating and a 90w charger probably wasnt an excessive load for a 140w inverter. thus its probably the second one power supplied to the unit is lower than 11v. thus we have the following - from either the front or the rear power outlets i get a low voltage alarm when the invert is plugged in with no load. thus even the front power outlets not getting a lot of power. - with the laptop on and plugged in the rear outlet causes the inverter to shut down completely; the front one causes it to continuously emit a series of double-beeps indicating its not getting enough power and probably close to shutting down. thus even with the light wiring to the rear causing the problems there theres still a problem overall in that even the front power outlets not supplying enough power. a couple of other points 1 tonight i was driving with the laptop turned off but plugged into the rear power outlet. shouldnt be a problem according to tests ive done with the engine off; but with the engine on definitely shouldnt be a problem. however while stopped at a red light the inverted emitted the familiar 5-second beep and turned off indicating the power to the rear had dropped below 10.5v. unplugged the inverter and plugged it back in again and it worked fine from then on. but the fact that the power to the rear would drop to below 10.5v while the engine was on and alternator was supplying power is very disconcerting. at idle with headlights and heater fans running your battery was likely close to or below 12.2 volts. 2 something ive noticed a couple of times in the short time ive had the car is that the headlights every once in a while will flicker off then on again once or twice within a couple of seconds and then be fine. as stated this has only happened a couple of times and i was hoping that it would just go away. but this may be related to this problem. i.e. the car may have some serious electrical problems in general. if the lights are flickering you 90% or better chance have a compromised body ground. put a booster cable from the battery negative to a good clean bare metal contact on the body of the van and retest. thanks for any input! neil on sat 11 mar 2006 234831 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote some more notes regarding this. with engine off i plug in the power inverter with nothing connected to inverter. get low voltage alarm 11.5v but inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop charger not connected to laptop and lights in laptop charger come on and inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop in need of charge but with laptop itself turned off to laptop charger. laptop lights show its charging and inverter stays on. i then unplug the laptop from charger while still in need of charge and turn it on. after laptop is booted i plug laptop back into charger. get a long alarm 5 seconds from inverter and it turns itself off indicating that voltage is 10.5v. thus it seems that even without a load except for the inverter its getting 11.5v. and its able to handle a small load but not the load with the laptop on. but again its only a 90w charger. and also again didnt have a problem with past two cars i had. regarding the battery itself there are my notes from the autozone battery test. 628 cold cranking amps 12.8v with alternator off 13.82 with alternator on thanks for any input. your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. your 90 watt inverter is ok. your laptop charger is ok. your laptop is ok. the wires to the back power outlet are too light for the length. get an automotive electrician to run a secondheavier wire from the fuse box back to the outlet. connect it in parallel with the original from a s close to the fuse as possible to as close to the plug as possible. cost less than a new battery

From : clare at snyder on ca

on sun 12 mar 2006 085028 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. rubbish. with alt charging the system should show over 14v. second as yet no one has shown results of a load test which is the only way to find out how it works under a load. funny how that works...... auto zone and most battery retailers use a transconductance tester such as a midtronics tester to test batteries. most battery suppliers require the battery to be tested on one before replacement. it can test a battery that is 3/4 discharged accurately. if a midtronics tester says the battery is shot its shot. if it says its good 99.9% of the time its good. the only exception is an intermittent intercel connector which may test perfectly good once and read 100% dead even with a voltmeter the next. ive seen that happen only once. they are more accurate than a load test. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : matt whiting

max dodge wrote revving the engine will do nothing to increase alternator output voltage; amperage maybe a little. either way its not a load test. but it does show how accurate and knowledgable the people at your particular autozone are. sure it will. nope. why a silly little thing known as a voltage regulator. been on vehicles for over half a century now. yep and do you know how they work they dont hold voltage exactly. amperage on the other hand may be increased slightly if you rev the engine but it depends on the system and how much draw there is. how does the amperage vary if you hold the voltage constant matt .

From : matt whiting

max dodge wrote then so what if the battery will provide enough power to crank the car it will provide enough power to charge a laptop for more than a few seconds. two seconds of cranking the engine would likely charge the laptop battery several times over. so what do you think a load test is going to prove more rubbish. cranking the engine is not a computer monitored function. thus you can crank the engine till the battery dies. the invertor otoh monitors power draw to confirm that it will have constant voltage/amperage so as to not mess with stuff like a laptop. if the invertor finds a drop itll shut down. hardly. if the voltage drops much under load it wont provide enough current to crank the starter. do you understand ohms law at all a load test will prove that a battery is capable of handling any load on it as well as noting condition. its a basic test and is the first again wtf test one should do in diagnosing an electrical system problem. no there are many tests that can and should be performed first that require much less equipment and expense. big deal. as someone suggested perhaps the voltage drops to the port he is using..... oh yeah a bunch of us have. if the voltage is dropping this much with an 8a draw then it would drop so much with 200+a for the starter than the engine wouldnt crank. yes a bunch of you have suggested to replace the battery before doing any real troubleshooting and a bunch of you are likely wrong. bullshit. i defy you to find a post of mine where i said replace the battery before testing it. second as i discussed above the starter doesnt care how much it draws on the battery nor does the ecm until it hits 10.5v at which point the injectors will not fire. the invertor otoh will at least should cut power it if finds an anomoly which threatens the delicate electronics it is feeding. i havent tried to keep track of who said to replace the battery and who didnt. you just sound like those who have been suggesting that. the starter doesnt care because a starter is an inanimate object and cant care but it does know what is going on. if the battery cant maintain sufficient voltage to drive many amps through the starter it wont spin the engine to start it. anytime a problem that might be related to battery load occurs the first test is the source of power to determine its capacity capability and performance under load. only when you have a known quantity as the power source can you accurately determine other issues such as voltage drop to the power port. this is funny. if you have an electrical problem in your house do you start troubleshooting at the power generating plant of your electrical untility no i start at the load center on the wall you know the big grey box where all the circuit breakers are. same box has the big ass cable coming in from the street that feeds the house. so yes i do check the power source in troubleshooting a home electrical problem as well. what part of this is so hard to understand check the source to be sure you have acceptable power coming into the system. that isnt the power source. for the ops inverter the outlet is the power source in the same sense that your service entrance is the power source for your house. checking the voltage at the outlet is the absolute first test he should make both open circuit and then under load if possible. that is much easier than running a load test on the battery and takes much less equipment. very few of us have battery load testers in our garage. anyone who thinks otherwise is a very poor tech and needs further training. anyone who suggests changing a battery before performing even the most basic checks and reviewing a schematic needs further training. well since i didnt suggest changing the battery before tests perhaps i will suggest you learn to read what ive posted. it hasnt been worth much to read. matt .

From : gary glaenzer

transconductance surely you jest transconductance transconductance is a measure of the change in plate current to a change in grid voltage with plate voltage held constant. the unit for conductance is the mho siemens pronounced moe. transconductance is normally expressed in either micromhos or millimhos. on sun 12 mar 2006 085028 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. rubbish. with alt charging the system should show over 14v. second as yet no one has shown results of a load test which is the only way to find out how it works under a load. funny how that works...... auto zone and most battery retailers use a transconductance tester such as a midtronics tester to test batteries. most battery suppliers require the battery to be tested on one before replacement. it can test a battery that is 3/4 discharged accurately. if a midtronics tester says the battery is shot its shot. if it says its good 99.9% of the time its good. the only exception is an intermittent intercel connector which may test perfectly good once and read 100% dead even with a voltmeter the next. ive seen that happen only once. they are more accurate than a load test. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : matt whiting

max dodge wrote mopar batteries have been known to go bad at 3 years or last as many as 6. as i stated to another poster its quite possible that the invertor is more sensitive to voltage drop than the starter. a starter will crank as long as you hold the key since it does not monitor voltage. funny my cars always only cranked until the batter could no longer generate enough voltage to drive enough current through the starter to turn the engine over. id like to know where you buy your infinitely large batteries that will just keep cranking as long as you hold the key. again test the power port with a meter and youll know if the voltage is enough to trip the invertor or not. hey we agree on something! matt .

From : matt whiting

max dodge wrote this according to the original post when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. ...indicates to me that the problem is in engine off mode. as such its a battery problem. it doesnt indicate that at all. it could be the battery but it also could be one of several other possibilities as has been mentioned earlier. matt .

From : matt whiting

neil wrote and at the risk of sounding ignorant which i am but i dont want to sound that way - which lead goes to which terminal or does it matter convention is red for positive and black for negative but most modern dvms will simply show you a negative value if you reverse polarity. matt .

From : matt whiting

gary glaenzer wrote bill putney wrote max dodge wrote ...anytime a problem that might be related to battery load occurs the first test is the source of power to determine its capacity capability and performance under load. only when you have a known quantity as the power source can you accurately determine other issues such as voltage drop to the power port. but earlier you suggested willy-nilly replacing the battery without determining where the problem is by intelligent voltage tests. except for a shorted cell condition which is obviously not the case here for all practical purposes i.e. all but extreme system loading a weak battery will not show up with the alternator pumping out over 14 volts which the inverter should run with handily - barring voltage drops elsewhere in the system. im not following your logic. there is no logic to parts replacers. folks that use logic - troubleshoot. those without logic replace parts until they get lucky. in this case two full days have been wasted farting around and 10 minutes spent replacing the battery which is alread three years old would have given a definitive answer it would have given a definitive answer only if the battery is the problem. if the problem lies elsewhere replacing the battery wouldnt have done a thing for the problem and cost you money for no good reason. that is why a true diagnostician checks things out systematically before replacing parts. matt .

From : gary glaenzer

gary glaenzer wrote max dodge wrote during the test the person had me rev the engine to over 1500 rpms. not sure if thats the load test youre referring to or if its something else. lol thats funny... really. revving the engine will do nothing to increase alternator output voltage; amperage maybe a little. either way its not a load test. but it does show how accurate and knowledgable the people at your particular autozone are. sure it will. keep digging boy ever heard of a voltage regulator sure have. i even designed a few when i was in college getting my ee degree. do you have any idea how a voltage regulator works certainly do you know why alternators not generators are used these days hint full output voltage at idle .

From : bill putney

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote on sun 12 mar 2006 172957 gmt gary glaenzer glaenzer@verizon.net wrote no it was me that suggested that rather than over-analyze the situation just stick another battery in and see what happens even at 5 bucks an hour the time spent on this so far far exceeds what a battery costs and if thats not the problem he has a good used battery on his hands and still no farther ahead. better to buy a cheap voltmeter get a book from the library on how to use it and test it himself. learn how to do his own testing and not be at the mercy of what seems to be more commonly incompetent technicians ....or this group!! lol! bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : max dodge

remember this is max speaking. doesnt have to make sense or be based on fact. but it does have to be based in reailty unlike your bullshit replies. if you dont know battery voltage in a vehicle its impossible to know if the voltage at the device is too low due to load resistance or if the battery is bad. always eliminate the power source as a problem before assuming something else is messing with supply. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author on sun 12 mar 2006 183544 gmt matt whiting whiting@epix.net wrote max dodge wrote during the test the person had me rev the engine to over 1500 rpms. not sure if thats the load test youre referring to or if its something else. lol thats funny... really. revving the engine will do nothing to increase alternator output voltage; amperage maybe a little. either way its not a load test. but it does show how accurate and knowledgable the people at your particular autozone are. sure it will. matt remember this is max speaking. doesnt have to make sense or be based on fact. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : gary glaenzer

max dodge wrote then so what if the battery will provide enough power to crank the car it will provide enough power to charge a laptop for more than a few seconds. two seconds of cranking the engine would likely charge the laptop battery several times over. so what do you think a load test is going to prove more rubbish. cranking the engine is not a computer monitored function. thus you can crank the engine till the battery dies. the invertor otoh monitors power draw to confirm that it will have constant voltage/amperage so as to not mess with stuff like a laptop. if the invertor finds a drop itll shut down. hardly. if the voltage drops much under load it wont provide enough current to crank the starter. define much do you understand ohms law at all i daresay i understand it better than most a load test will prove that a battery is capable of handling any load on it as well as noting condition. its a basic test and is the first again wtf test one should do in diagnosing an electrical system problem. no there are many tests that can and should be performed first that require much less equipment and expense. big deal. as someone suggested perhaps the voltage drops to the port he is using..... oh yeah a bunch of us have. if the voltage is dropping this much with an 8a draw then it would drop so much with 200+a for the starter than the engine wouldnt crank. yes a bunch of you have suggested to replace the battery before doing any real troubleshooting and a bunch of you are likely wrong. bullshit. i defy you to find a post of mine where i said replace the battery before testing it. second as i discussed above the starter doesnt care how much it draws on the battery nor does the ecm until it hits 10.5v at which point the injectors will not fire. the invertor otoh will at least should cut power it if finds an anomoly which threatens the delicate electronics it is feeding. i havent tried to keep track of who said to replace the battery and who didnt. you just sound like those who have been suggesting that. the starter doesnt care because a starter is an inanimate object and cant care but it does know what is going on. if the battery cant maintain sufficient voltage to drive many amps through the starter it wont spin the engine to start it. anytime a problem that might be related to battery load occurs the first test is the source of power to determine its capacity capability and performance under load. only when you have a known quantity as the power source can you accurately determine other issues such as voltage drop to the power port. this is funny. if you have an electrical problem in your house do you start troubleshooting at the power generating plant of your electrical untility no i start at the load center on the wall you know the big grey box where all the circuit breakers are. same box has the big ass cable coming in from the street that feeds the house. so yes i do check the power source in troubleshooting a home electrical problem as well. what part of this is so hard to understand check the source to be sure you have acceptable power coming into the system. that isnt the power source. for the ops inverter the outlet is the power source in the same sense that your service entrance is the power source for your house. checking the voltage at the outlet is the absolute first test he should make both open circuit and then under load if possible. that is much easier than running a load test on the battery and takes much less equipment. very few of us have battery load testers in our garage. anyone who thinks otherwise is a very poor tech and needs further training. anyone who suggests changing a battery before performing even the most basic checks and reviewing a schematic needs further training. well since i didnt suggest changing the battery before tests perhaps i will suggest you learn to read what ive posted. it hasnt been worth much to read. matt .

From : matt whiting

bill putney wrote max dodge wrote revving the engine will do nothing to increase alternator output voltage; amperage maybe a little. either way its not a load test. but it does show how accurate and knowledgable the people at your particular autozone are. sure it will. nope. why a silly little thing known as a voltage regulator. been on vehicles for over half a century now. a regulator cannot force an alternator to put out full regulated voltage if the alternator is not turning fast enough - often the case at idle on vehicles with typical loads turned on. amperage on the other hand may be increased slightly if you rev the engine but it depends on the system and how much draw there is. no - amperage will not be increased *if* the voltage is already at full regulation before reving it up which in many/most vehicles at idle it is not. at full regulated voltage amperage is whatever the loads are that are on. for a given load the *only* time amperage will increase with reving is if the voltage were low i.e. not into full regulation before reving. reving it up usually no more than 1000 0r 1200 rpm with typical light loads ensures that it is getting the regulator into full regulation i.e. max. regulated voltage. bill it is clear he doesnt understand the fundamentals of ohms law let alone how a voltage regulator works. matt .

From : matt whiting

max dodge wrote bullshit. i defy you to find a post of mine where i said replace the battery before testing it. second as i discussed above the starter doesnt care you said at 1027 am on sunday march 12th have a load test done elsewhere or simply replace the battery. say has anyone checked the age of this battery maybe you dont know the meaning of or but to refresh your memory or means that you can either do the thing before the or or the thing after the or. no order is implied. so the above is suggesting that you can either perform a test or you can replace the battery without having tested it. youve been defied. any comment - matt .

From : matt whiting

gary glaenzer wrote max dodge wrote during the test the person had me rev the engine to over 1500 rpms. not sure if thats the load test youre referring to or if its something else. lol thats funny... really. revving the engine will do nothing to increase alternator output voltage; amperage maybe a little. either way its not a load test. but it does show how accurate and knowledgable the people at your particular autozone are. sure it will. keep digging boy ever heard of a voltage regulator sure have. i even designed a few when i was in college getting my ee degree. do you have any idea how a voltage regulator works matt .

From : gary glaenzer

gary glaenzer wrote bill putney wrote max dodge wrote ...anytime a problem that might be related to battery load occurs the first test is the source of power to determine its capacity capability and performance under load. only when you have a known quantity as the power source can you accurately determine other issues such as voltage drop to the power port. but earlier you suggested willy-nilly replacing the battery without determining where the problem is by intelligent voltage tests. except for a shorted cell condition which is obviously not the case here for all practical purposes i.e. all but extreme system loading a weak battery will not show up with the alternator pumping out over 14 volts which the inverter should run with handily - barring voltage drops elsewhere in the system. im not following your logic. there is no logic to parts replacers. folks that use logic - troubleshoot. those without logic replace parts until they get lucky. in this case two full days have been wasted farting around and 10 minutes spent replacing the battery which is alread three years old would have given a definitive answer it would have given a definitive answer only if the battery is the problem. if the problem lies elsewhere replacing the battery wouldnt have done a thing for the problem and cost you money for no good reason. wrong braniac it would have a proven the battery was at fault or b shown the problem to be with the inverter power outlet or wiring to that outlet either way the original poster would have had a definitive answer that is why a true diagnostician checks things out systematically before replacing parts. matt .

From : matt whiting

gary glaenzer wrote gary glaenzer wrote bill putney wrote max dodge wrote ...anytime a problem that might be related to battery load occurs the first test is the source of power to determine its capacity capability and performance under load. only when you have a known quantity as the power source can you accurately determine other issues such as voltage drop to the power port. but earlier you suggested willy-nilly replacing the battery without determining where the problem is by intelligent voltage tests. except for a shorted cell condition which is obviously not the case here for all practical purposes i.e. all but extreme system loading a weak battery will not show up with the alternator pumping out over 14 volts which the inverter should run with handily - barring voltage drops elsewhere in the system. im not following your logic. there is no logic to parts replacers. folks that use logic - troubleshoot. those without logic replace parts until they get lucky. in this case two full days have been wasted farting around and 10 minutes spent replacing the battery which is alread three years old would have given a definitive answer it would have given a definitive answer only if the battery is the problem. if the problem lies elsewhere replacing the battery wouldnt have done a thing for the problem and cost you money for no good reason. wrong braniac it would have a proven the battery was at fault or b shown the problem to be with the inverter power outlet or wiring to that outlet either way the original poster would have had a definitive answer no as their are many things in the path from the battery to the outlet. things like wiring most likely a ptc a ground connection etc. he still wouldnt know precisely where the problem was unless he was lucky and it was the battery. if it wasnt hes only slightly closer to the real problem and hes also out the price of a battery. matt .

From : maxpower

i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for the power inverter and for the laptop charger are below. thanks for any input! neil power inverter specs capacity 140w input voltage 12vdc dc input voltage range 10.5 - 15.8vdc output voltage nominal 120vac 5% dc voltage 12vdc cigarette jack frequency 60 hz 3% continuous output power 140w peak output power 270w laptop charger specs power provided 90 w product type power adapter type ac adapter voltage required 100 to 240 vac max output current 4.5 a max. at 4-second pulse 3.5 a continuous neil i havent been following this whole thread and im not sure if this will help but on the 2001-2005 fuse number 6 in the junction block has 3 slots it is stamped b+ or ign on the ipm. if the fuse is in the slot that is marked ign take it out and slide it over to the batt slot. this will now make the power outlet hot all the time when the key is in the off position. this should be in your owners manual.. like i said i have not been following this thread so this may have already been bought to your attention.. glenn beasley chrysler tech .

From : bill putney

matt whiting wrote neil wrote and at the risk of sounding ignorant which i am but i dont want to sound that way - which lead goes to which terminal or does it matter convention is red for positive and black for negative but most modern dvms will simply show you a negative value if you reverse polarity. matt exactly. if you have an old fashioned analog meter it will matter. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : bill putney

gary glaenzer wrote certainly do you know why alternators not generators are used these days hint full output voltage at idle within spec. but at full regulated output voltage typically no especially with a few accessories turned on. read the spec. page on the alternator in an fsm. it says to test it you have to have at least x rpm and load it with y current to say that its good. alternators are more capable of providing full voltage at much lower rpm than generators. generators meaning the d.c. generator of years ago - i say that because the auto manufacturers are in more recent years now referring to what you and i have referred to as alternators as generators required the idle rpm to be ratiod up to spin it a lot faster than an alternator to keep the voltage in spec. such that at todays engine rpms say in a passing situation 5000 or 6000 engine rpm the generator would fly apart. with the alternator being able to supply much more current at lower spin rates they can gear pulley them down so that they can withstand the high engine rpms. also keep in mind that the modern car puts a lot more current demand on an alternator - in the days of generators they used to talk in terms of 20 or 25 amp units. now a 90 110 or greater alternator is the norm. back to the topic at hand they typically size the pulleys to just barely keep things in a usable range of voltage at idle depending on the loads that are turned on with reasonable loads. on most cars if you put a voltmeter on your battery alternator output you will find that the voltage drops off a little at idle - still within spec. but some drop-off. this is especially true if you turn more than usual loads on - say headlight high beams and the passenger compartment blower fan on high speed it pulls a bunch of current. its a fact. btw - something that people do if they need full voltage at idle is to put an optional police package alternator on their car - can provide heftier currents and maintain voltage a lot better at idle. hmmm maybe thats an option for the op. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : max dodge

a regulator cannot force an alternator to put out full regulated voltage if the alternator is not turning fast enough - often the case at idle on vehicles with typical loads turned on. false. voltage will be at whatever the vr sets it to be regardless of rpm. current on the other hand may vary due to load and rpm. want proof go outside fire up your vehicle attach a good multimeter wait till voltage stabilizes then turn on all the lights and radio etc. watch the meter. voltage will not change assuming the alernator is turning. rev it up still wont change. wanna make it real simple most cars have a voltmeter on the dash watch it to see if it goes up and down. if it does replace the vr. if not its working properly. got a friend with a cummins ram watch it while the grid cycles. revving the engine does not stop the voltage from dropping with the load. youve got the two backwards. anyone whose driven a 60s-70s mopar with the ammeter knows this. and i repeat you wont see much difference on the ammeter either. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote revving the engine will do nothing to increase alternator output voltage; amperage maybe a little. either way its not a load test. but it does show how accurate and knowledgable the people at your particular autozone are. sure it will. nope. why a silly little thing known as a voltage regulator. been on vehicles for over half a century now. a regulator cannot force an alternator to put out full regulated voltage if the alternator is not turning fast enough - often the case at idle on vehicles with typical loads turned on. amperage on the other hand may be increased slightly if you rev the engine but it depends on the system and how much draw there is. no - amperage will not be increased *if* the voltage is already at full regulation before reving it up which in many/most vehicles at idle it is not. at full regulated voltage amperage is whatever the loads are that are on. for a given load the *only* time amperage will increase with reving is if the voltage were low i.e. not into full regulation before reving. reving it up usually no more than 1000 0r 1200 rpm with typical light loads ensures that it is getting the regulator into full regulation i.e. max. regulated voltage. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : max dodgemax dodge

and if thats not the problem he has a good used battery on his hands and still no farther ahead. better to buy a cheap voltmeter get a book from the library on how to use it and test it himself. learn how to do his own testing and not be at the mercy of what seems to be more commonly incompetent technicians wow exactly what i suggested 50 posts back..... -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author on sun 12 mar 2006 172957 gmt gary glaenzer glaenzer@verizon.net wrote no it was me that suggested that rather than over-analyze the situation just stick another battery in and see what happens even at 5 bucks an hour the time spent on this so far far exceeds what a battery costs and if thats not the problem he has a good used battery on his hands and still no farther ahead. better to buy a cheap voltmeter get a book from the library on how to use it and test it himself. learn how to do his own testing and not be at the mercy of what seems to be more commonly incompetent technicians *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : max dodge

that was pretty sneaky and dishonest! how so heres the complete sentence the beginning of which you conveniently left out when the engine is running emphasis added the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. say that looks exactly like what i posted except for your emphasis. again no matter how you cut it the engine is not running. i clearly posted the entire line its all there in your post see below my sig. well since you misread the op and now cant admit that you need to read it correctly now and re-think your position. with the engine off all bets are off on the inverter running with some finite line drop and nominal non-charging battery voltage. whether the inverter runs properly with the engine off should not be a concern. here is the original post when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. no misreading it he clearly says when the engine is running the invertor works fine. engine off the inverter doesnt work long at all. nope i read it quite clearly. engine is not running. wtf not before you applied your sleight-of-hand to the ops orignal post. bullshit. i did nothing get some glasses. and you are the first person that seems to think that the engine runs while its off..... please check the op if you doubt my words above. no - you are the first to pretend that it is off when it is in fact running in which case the inverter works - according to the op. better read that again blind guy. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the ***engine is off ***with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. the question is about the engine off condition which seems to play games with the invertor. if you think its something different you missed the boat. go back to op and start over. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote here is what you said have a load test done elsewhere or simply replace the battery. i accept that you made that statement in the context of the 12.8v reading which i dont readily accept as indicative of a bad battery but i will take your word for it at this point. 12.8v just after charging indicates to me that nominal after a cool down might be lower than the invertor wants to see. however as you admit i did suggest another load test prior to simply replacing it this predicated on the difficulty/cost of getting a second more accurate test. also i dont accept that a weak battery one without a shorted cell which is not indicated by the information that we have will in any way pull down a properly functioning alternator - so the fact that the op is having undervoltage issues at the socket *with* *the* *engine* *running* says to me that this particular problem is *not* caused by the battery - it is a voltage drop somewhere else in the system supplying power to the socket. this according to the original post when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. that was pretty sneaky and dishonest! heres the complete sentence the beginning of which you conveniently left out when the engine is running emphasis added the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. ...indicates to me that the problem is in engine off mode. as such its a battery problem. well since you misread the op and now cant admit that you need to read it correctly now and re-think your position. with the engine off all bets are off on the inverter running with some finite line drop and nominal non-charging battery voltage. whether the inverter runs properly with the engine off should not be a concern. ...except i still take exception with you that a weak non-shorted cell battery would explain an undervoltage condition with the engine running and a working alternator. not to say his battery isnt bad or weak but it aint causing this particular problem with the engine running. engine is not running. wtf not before you applied your sleight-of-hand to the ops orignal post. also - let the record show that well into this thread i was the very first person to make the obvious suggestion of actually using a voltmeter to measure the voltage *at* *the* *socket* - not gary not that it matters but.... and you are the first person that seems to think that the engine runs w

From : max dodge

it would have given a definitive answer only if the battery is the problem. if the problem lies elsewhere replacing the battery wouldnt have done a thing for the problem and cost you money for no good reason. that is why a true diagnostician checks things out systematically before replacing parts. which is why i suggested doing exactly that in a list despite what you want to believe. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author gary glaenzer wrote bill putney wrote max dodge wrote ...anytime a problem that might be related to battery load occurs the first test is the source of power to determine its capacity capability and performance under load. only when you have a known quantity as the power source can you accurately determine other issues such as voltage drop to the power port. but earlier you suggested willy-nilly replacing the battery without determining where the problem is by intelligent voltage tests. except for a shorted cell condition which is obviously not the case here for all practical purposes i.e. all but extreme system loading a weak battery will not show up with the alternator pumping out over 14 volts which the inverter should run with handily - barring voltage drops elsewhere in the system. im not following your logic. there is no logic to parts replacers. folks that use logic - troubleshoot. those without logic replace parts until they get lucky. in this case two full days have been wasted farting around and 10 minutes spent replacing the battery which is alread three years old would have given a definitive answer it would have given a definitive answer only if the battery is the problem. if the problem lies elsewhere replacing the battery wouldnt have done a thing for the problem and cost you money for no good reason. that is why a true diagnostician checks things out systematically before replacing parts. matt .

From : max dodge

wrong braniac it would have a proven the battery was at fault or b shown the problem to be with the inverter power outlet or wiring to that outlet either way the original poster would have had a definitive answer and a new battery which at three years on a factory battery isnt a bad idea at all. meanwhile a bunch of guys who never set foot in a repair shop except to pick up the car will tell a bunch of us whove been doping this for years how it all works wasting time for..... days while the op doesnt have a clue how to operate a vm.... take the fucking thing to a garage and forget asking here half of us dont have a clue the other half have too much info. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author gary glaenzer wrote bill putney wrote max dodge wrote ...anytime a problem that might be related to battery load occurs the first test is the source of power to determine its capacity capability and performance under load. only when you have a known quantity as the power source can you accurately determine other issues such as voltage drop to the power port. but earlier you suggested willy-nilly replacing the battery without determining where the problem is by intelligent voltage tests. except for a shorted cell condition which is obviously not the case here for all practical purposes i.e. all but extreme system loading a weak battery will not show up with the alternator pumping out over 14 volts which the inverter should run with handily - barring voltage drops elsewhere in the system. im not following your logic. there is no logic to parts replacers. folks that use logic - troubleshoot. those without logic replace parts until they get lucky. in this case two full days have been wasted farting around and 10 minutes spent replacing the battery which is alread three years old would have given a definitive answer it would have given a definitive answer only if the battery is the problem. if the problem lies elsewhere replacing the battery wouldnt have done a thing for the problem and cost you money for no good reason. wrong braniac it would have a proven the battery was at fault or b shown the problem to be with the inverter power outlet or wiring to that outlet either way the original poster would have had a definitive answer that is why a true diagnostician checks things out systematically before replacing parts. matt .

From : max dodge

max what you are advocating i hope is a battery reserve test. simple way to do it with no fancy equipment is to measure open circuit coltage with the engine shut off should read above 12 volts - 12.6 is theoretical full charge 2.2 volts per cell. by my count thats 13.2 but hey its only math right to stabilize the battery and draw off the surface charge crank the starter for a couple seconds. and then turn the headlights on low beam for one minute and read the battery voltage with the lights on. it should hold 12 volts. if you leave the lights on for 3 or more minutes and the battery voltagesags to 11.6 more or less you want to do a recovery test which means shut off the lights wait one minute and recheck voltage. it should be back to a minimum of 12 volts. a load test puts a known load on the battery directly and shows the voltage under load. no need for fancy procedures ya clamp it on pull the trigger and watch the meter. if it passes these tests and does not drop below 10.5 volts when cranking the battery is functional and is not causing the problem. it may still not be good but it is not the problem - and since starting after sitting a couple days isnt a problem either the battery is good. again starting after a couple of days sitting is not a test for battery under load. i stand by my proven diagnostic method which has never failed in 20 years of using it. guesswork and random lights on etc is a sure way to failure as youve got no finite measurement of voltage drop. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author on sun 12 mar 2006 155735 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote the vehicle still starts using this battery. that is a pretty good load test. with due respect no it is not. ive seen many cars even back in the carbureted era start just fine on a batttery that failed a load test. the starting load is so much higher than the load hes using charging his laptop that this isnt even a concern in this situation. big deal. as someone suggested perhaps the voltage drops to the port he is using..... oh yeah a bunch of us have. now if the battery would run the laptop charge but not start the engine then id suggest a load test was in order but not the other way around. anytime a problem that might be related to battery load occurs the first test is the source of power to determine its capacity capability and performance under load. only when you have a known quantity as the power source can you accurately determine other issues such as voltage drop to the power port. anyone who thinks otherwise is a very poor tech and needs further training. max what you are advocating i hope is a battery reserve test. simple way to do it with no fancy equipment is to measure open circuit coltage with the engine shut off should read above 12 volts - 12.6 is theoretical full charge 2.2 volts per cell. to stabilize the battery and draw off the surface charge crank the starter for a couple seconds. and then turn the headlights on low beam for one minute and read the battery voltage with the lights on. it should hold 12 volts. if you leave the lights on for 3 or more minutes and the battery voltagesags to 11.6 more or less you want to do a recovery test which means shut off the lights wait one minute and recheck voltage. it should be back to a minimum of 12 volts. if it passes these tests and does not drop below 10.5 volts when cranking the battery is functional and is not causing the problem. it may still not be good but it is not the problem - and since starting after sitting a couple days isnt a problem either the battery is good. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : max dodge

no max - it is 99.9% sure not a battery problem. it is a wiring problem. without knowing battery voltage you have no idea. not knowing the wiring schema on the caravan intimately id say either a bad body ground has been a problem on chryslers or a bad connection in the distribution system or an undersized wire. both of which need to be tested using a known good battery. wow ive said this several times now and all you engineers refuse to believe that knowing your baseline voltage is essential to finding a drop in the wiring. all 3 are very possible and the booster post mentioned by another poster would be the second place to check if it has one after the body ground from my experience. sure they are. but first test in diagnostics is to check to see that the source of power is stable and performing to spec. i didnt say the problem was the battery i did say that checking the battery and confirming it as operating properly is the first step. ill repeat for you that are hard of reading 1 check battery nominal voltage. 2 check power port voltage 3 act accordingly. wtf dont you understand about that -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author on sun 12 mar 2006 200636 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote here is what you said have a load test done elsewhere or simply replace the battery. i accept that you made that statement in the context of the 12.8v reading which i dont readily accept as indicative of a bad battery but i will take your word for it at this point. 12.8v just after charging indicates to me that nominal after a cool down might be lower than the invertor wants to see. however as you admit i did suggest another load test prior to simply replacing it this predicated on the difficulty/cost of getting a second more accurate test. also i dont accept that a weak battery one without a shorted cell which is not indicated by the information that we have will in any way pull down a properly functioning alternator - so the fact that the op is having undervoltage issues at the socket *with* *the* *engine* *running* says to me that this particular problem is *not* caused by the battery - it is a voltage drop somewhere else in the system supplying power to the socket. this according to the original post when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. ...indicates to me that the problem is in engine off mode. as such its a battery problem. no max - it is 99.9% sure not a battery problem. it is a wiring problem. not knowing the wiring schema on the caravan intimately id say either a bad body ground has been a problem on chryslers or a bad connection in the distribution system or an undersized wire. all 3 are very possible and the booster post mentioned by another poster would be the second place to check if it has one after the body ground from my experience. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : max dodge

actually max would you not check power at the outlet first to see if it is a power problem atall or a device problem since you are the one suggesting that the wiring in the vehicle is the device with the problem the outlet needs to be compared with the source the incoming line or the battery depending on hte example being used. i would. if the voltage at the outlet is ok under load no use going to the panel. right but youve suggested that the wiring is the problem so knowing the battery voltage becomes essential to the diagnostics. if it is low at the outlet check at the breaker. if ok at the breaker bad wiring if low at the breaker check the line side of the breaker. if ok there replace the breaker. if low at the line side check at the main breaker. if ok there you have a panel problem. always check from the known problem back not from the known good forward. either way will work but in a vehicle you must know the voltage at which the battery is operating in order to know if you have a drop at the device. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author on sun 12 mar 2006 194544 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote no i start at the load center on the wall you know the big grey box where all the circuit breakers are. same box has the big ass cable coming in from the street that feeds the house. so yes i do check the power source in troubleshooting a home electrical problem as well. what part of this is so hard to understand check the source to be sure you have acceptable power coming into the system. anyone who thinks otherwise is a very poor tech and needs further training. anyone who suggests changing a battery before performing even the most basic checks and reviewing a schematic needs further training. well since i didnt suggest changing the battery before tests perhaps i will suggest you learn to read what ive posted. actually max would you not check power at the outlet first to see if it is a power problem atall or a device problem i would. if the voltage at the outlet is ok under load no use going to the panel. if it is low at the outlet check at the breaker. if ok at the breaker bad wiring if low at the breaker check the line side of the breaker. if ok there replace the breaker. if low at the line side check at the main breaker. if ok there you have a panel problem. always check from the known problem back not from the known good forward. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : max dodge

that is a cluelss service manager. ive had batteries last less than 3 years and 40000 miles and ive had batteries last 9 years and over 100000 miles. you simply cant judge battery condition by age or mileage alone. really so would you test the battery first or simply assume it was ok and not know if your diagnostics were properly indicating the problem seems like a lot of you experts would skip the battery test and move directly to measuring voltage at the power port to compare it to....... oh... thats right you didnt check the battery....so you wont know if the wiring is the problem.... or if the draw by the device is the problem..... or if some protective circuitry is working.... -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author neil wrote in my original post i noted that its the original manufacturer battery with 45k miles on the vehicle. the dealer service manager that i spoke to brushed off the problem and said to just replace the battery that 45k miles means the battery should be replaced etc. etc. while i dont discount that it seems that i should have *some* trouble starting the car if the battery was weak. as it is the car starts easier than most cars ive driven with just a touch of the key to the starter position. that is a cluelss service manager. ive had batteries last less than 3 years and 40000 miles and ive had batteries last 9 years and over 100000 miles. you simply cant judge battery condition by age or mileage alone. matt .

From : max dodge

again test the power port with a meter and youll know if the voltage is enough to trip the invertor or not. hey we agree on something! wow one dipshit finally figured out what ive been saying all along. 1 test battery for voltage 2 test port for voltage 3 act accordingly. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote mopar batteries have been known to go bad at 3 years or last as many as 6. as i stated to another poster its quite possible that the invertor is more sensitive to voltage drop than the starter. a starter will crank as long as you hold the key since it does not monitor voltage. funny my cars always only cranked until the batter could no longer generate enough voltage to drive enough current through the starter to turn the engine over. id like to know where you buy your infinitely large batteries that will just keep cranking as long as you hold the key. again test the power port with a meter and youll know if the voltage is enough to trip the invertor or not. hey we agree on something! matt .

From : matt whiting

max dodge wrote wrong braniac it would have a proven the battery was at fault or b shown the problem to be with the inverter power outlet or wiring to that outlet either way the original poster would have had a definitive answer and a new battery which at three years on a factory battery isnt a bad idea at all. the factory delco battery in my 85 jeep comanche lasted 9 years so i wouldnt have considered replacing at at 1/3 of its life to be a good idea. i guess we just have different definitions of good idea. meanwhile a bunch of guys who never set foot in a repair shop except to pick up the car will tell a bunch of us whove been doping this for years how it all works wasting time for..... days while the op doesnt have a clue how to operate a vm.... he does now as several of us have given him a few clues. you just gave him suggestions that require him to visit a repair shop. matt .

From : max dodge

maybe you dont know the meaning of or but to refresh your memory or means that you can either do the thing before the or or the thing after the or. no order is implied. so the above is suggesting that you can either perform a test or you can replace the battery without having tested it. youve been defied. any comment - yeah based on you knowledgable types thinking the battery should have 2.2v per cell anything less than 13.2 indicates a bad battery. so yeah using your vast knowledge i was stupid to suggest a second test of the battery. he should have just replaced it. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote bullshit. i defy you to find a post of mine where i said replace the battery before testing it. second as i discussed above the starter doesnt care you said at 1027 am on sunday march 12th have a load test done elsewhere or simply replace the battery. say has anyone checked the age of this battery maybe you dont know the meaning of or but to refresh your memory or means that you can either do the thing before the or or the thing after the or. no order is implied. so the above is suggesting that you can either perform a test or you can replace the battery without having tested it. youve been defied. any comment - matt .

From : matt whiting

max dodge wrote no max - it is 99.9% sure not a battery problem. it is a wiring problem. without knowing battery voltage you have no idea. he said the battery voltage has been checked and was 12.8v. not knowing the wiring schema on the caravan intimately id say either a bad body ground has been a problem on chryslers or a bad connection in the distribution system or an undersized wire. both of which need to be tested using a known good battery. wow ive said this several times now and all you engineers refuse to believe that knowing your baseline voltage is essential to finding a drop in the wiring. he said he knew the baseline not sure what that means voltage was 12.8v. that is all you need to know for the diagnistic approach we suggested which was check the voltage at the power outlet and see what you find. matt .

From : matt whiting

max dodge wrote they are more accurate than a load test. terrific! then i repeat 12.6 volts is too low. as we know 2.2 volts per cell comes up at 13.2v therefore the battery is bad. except that the normal cell voltage for a lead acid battery is 2-2.1 and anything above about 2.15v/cell will charge the battery. matt .

From : matt whiting

max dodge wrote yep and do you know how they work they dont hold voltage exactly. ya sure about that the new ones are pretty good..... yes im sure. most regulator specs are in the range of .4-.5v over a 10-95% alternator output range. want me to post a spec sheet for you or can you google one on your own matt .

From : max dodge

power source in the same sense that your service entrance is the power source for your house. checking the voltage at the outlet is the absolute first test he should make both open circuit and then under load if possible. wrong. without a known supply voltage its impossible to know if the port voltage is too low or if its normal for the voltage supplied by the source. unlike your house electrical batteries tend to change voltage with many variables. instead of discussing ten or twenty varibles you check battery voltage first. this establishes a baseline. scientific method anyone once you have a baseline then you check the possible variable voltage at the powerport. that is much easier than running a load test on the battery and takes much less equipment. very few of us have battery load testers in our garage. which proves one thing..... you are not qualified to do automotive diagnostics at home let alone over the net. meanwhile a simple load test which takes all of a minute with a load bank that cost less than $100 and can be borrowed for even less! will show battery condition. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote then so what if the battery will provide enough power to crank the car it will provide enough power to charge a laptop for more than a few seconds. two seconds of cranking the engine would likely charge the laptop battery several times over. so what do you think a load test is going to prove more rubbish. cranking the engine is not a computer monitored function. thus you can crank the engine till the battery dies. the invertor otoh monitors power draw to confirm that it will have constant voltage/amperage so as to not mess with stuff like a laptop. if the invertor finds a drop itll shut down. hardly. if the voltage drops much under load it wont provide enough current to crank the starter. do you understand ohms law at all a load test will prove that a battery is capable of handling any load on it as well as noting condition. its a basic test and is the first again wtf test one should do in diagnosing an electrical system problem. no there are many tests that can and should be performed first that require much less equipment and expense. big deal. as someone suggested perhaps the voltage drops to the port he is using..... oh yeah a bunch of us have. if the voltage is dropping this much with an 8a draw then it would drop so much with 200+a for the starter than the engine wouldnt crank. yes a bunch of you have suggested to replace the battery before doing any real troubleshooting and a bunch of you are likely wrong. bullshit. i defy you to find a post of mine where i said replace the battery before testing it. second as i discussed above the starter doesnt care how much it draws on the battery nor does the ecm until it hits 10.5v at which point the injectors will not fire. the invertor otoh will at least should cut power it if finds an anomoly which threatens the delicate electronics it is feeding. i havent tried to keep track of who said to replace the battery and who didnt. you just sound like those who have been suggesting that. the starter doesnt care because a starter is an inanimate object and cant care but it does know what is going on. if the battery cant maintain sufficient voltage to drive many amps through the starter it wont spin the engine to start it. anytime a problem that might be related to battery load occurs the first test is the source of power to determine its capacity capability and performance under load. only when you have a known quantity as the power source can you accurately determine other issues such as voltage drop to the power port. this is funny. if you have an electrical problem in your house do you start troubleshooting at the power generating plant of your electrical untility no i start at the load center on the wall you know the big grey box where all the circuit breakers are. same box has the big ass cable coming in from the street that feeds the house. so yes i do check the power source in troubleshooting a home electrical problem as well. what part of this is so hard to understand check the source to be sure you have acceptable power coming into the system. that isnt the power source. for the ops inverter the outlet is the power source in the same sense that your service entrance is the power source for your house. checking the voltage at the outlet is the absolute first test he should make both open circuit and then under load if possible. that is much easier than running a load test on the battery and takes much less equipment. very few of us have battery load testers in our garage. anyone who thinks otherwise is a very poor tech and needs further training. anyone who suggests changing a batt

From : matt whiting

max dodge wrote that is a cluelss service manager. ive had batteries last less than 3 years and 40000 miles and ive had batteries last 9 years and over 100000 miles. you simply cant judge battery condition by age or mileage alone. really so would you test the battery first or simply assume it was ok and not know if your diagnostics were properly indicating the problem no i would check the voltage at the power outlet first. then i would check the battery and other components as necessary. since he said he had already had the battery voltage tested and gave the value which is well withing spec for a good battery i didnt see a need to check the battery a second time. seems like a lot of you experts would skip the battery test and move directly to measuring voltage at the power port to compare it to....... oh... thats right you didnt check the battery....so you wont know if the wiring is the problem.... or if the draw by the device is the problem..... or if some protective circuitry is working.... it isnt like the voltage on a car bus is an unknown quantity. if it isnt within spitting distance of 12v then something is amiss. now if you told me that the voltage of my power source was unknown then id probably check that first but in a car the bus voltage specification is known. the voltage at the outlet is either in spec or it isnt. i dont need to check the battery first to determine if the voltage at the power outlet is correct. matt .

From : max dodge

bill it is clear he doesnt understand the fundamentals of ohms law let alone how a voltage regulator works. i understand both very well. i also understand diagnotic procedure and scientific method. im also well versed in this sort of problem as its quite common in battery based electrical systems. further you both seem to think testing the port voltage will show something without knowledge of battery voltage. id like to know to what you will compare this port reading in order to determine its value -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author bill putney wrote max dodge wrote revving the engine will do nothing to increase alternator output voltage; amperage maybe a little. either way its not a load test. but it does show how accurate and knowledgable the people at your particular autozone are. sure it will. nope. why a silly little thing known as a voltage regulator. been on vehicles for over half a century now. a regulator cannot force an alternator to put out full regulated voltage if the alternator is not turning fast enough - often the case at idle on vehicles with typical loads turned on. amperage on the other hand may be increased slightly if you rev the engine but it depends on the system and how much draw there is. no - amperage will not be increased *if* the voltage is already at full regulation before reving it up which in many/most vehicles at idle it is not. at full regulated voltage amperage is whatever the loads are that are on. for a given load the *only* time amperage will increase with reving is if the voltage were low i.e. not into full regulation before reving. reving it up usually no more than 1000 0r 1200 rpm with typical light loads ensures that it is getting the regulator into full regulation i.e. max. regulated voltage. bill it is clear he doesnt understand the fundamentals of ohms law let alone how a voltage regulator works. matt .

From : matt whiting

max dodge wrote lol load tester $60 but not applied to bill one minute of test time $1 information leading to battery condition knowledge priceless. so what tests would you be referring to checking voltage at the place where the problem is occuring namely the power outlet. i havent tried to keep track of who said to replace the battery and who didnt. you just sound like those who have been suggesting that. yeah and you sound like a clueless academic who hasnt spent much time in a garage except your own but does feel that your expertise qualifies you to argue with guys whove seen this problem so many times its ingrained in our training. practicing the same wrong procedure doesnt make it right. it just makes one very proficient at being wrong. again 1 test battery and ascertain voltage. 2 test powerport and ascertain voltage drop if any. 3 act accordingly. he gave the battery voltage in one of his very early posts. why do you want to keep checking the same thing rather than something new that isnt the power source. for the ops inverter the outlet is the power source in the same sense that your service entrance is the power source for your house. checking the voltage at the outlet is the absolute first test he should make both open circuit and then under load if possible. wrong. without a known supply voltage its impossible to know if the port voltage is too low or if its normal for the voltage supplied by the source. unlike your house electrical batteries tend to change voltage with many variables. instead of discussing ten or twenty varibles you check battery voltage first. this establishes a baseline. scientific method anyone once you have a baseline then you check the possible variable voltage at the powerport. sure it is because you know what the voltage at that power outlet should be on a 12v negative ground automobile. that is much easier than running a load test on the battery and takes much less equipment. very few of us have battery load testers in our garage. which proves one thing..... you are not qualified to do automotive diagnostics at home let alone over the net. meanwhile a simple load test which takes all of a minute with a load bank that cost less than $100 and can be borrowed for even less! will show battery condition. ive done them for well over 30 years quite successfully and have never needed a load tester. i can quickly isolate most problems without needing more than a $10 dvm. why you feel the need to load test a battery for a load that will require at most 8a from a battery that will crank and start the engine is beyond logic. matt .

From : matt whiting

max dodge wrote again test the power port with a meter and youll know if the voltage is enough to trip the invertor or not. hey we agree on something! wow one dipshit finally figured out what ive been saying all along. 1 test battery for voltage 2 test port for voltage 3 act accordingly. except that you have it out of order. 1 test port for correct voltage. for a 12v negative ground car this is ..... drum roll please ... 12v! 2 if the result of test 1 isnt 12v then check the battery voltage. matt .

From : matt whiting

max dodge wrote and a new battery which at three years on a factory battery isnt a bad idea at all. the factory delco battery in my 85 jeep comanche lasted 9 years so i wouldnt have considered replacing at at 1/3 of its life to be a good idea. i guess we just have different definitions of good idea. ever have a late model mopar battery ever consider that 9 years is 4 over the average life of the best lead acid battery life expectancy on the market meanwhile a bunch of guys who never set foot in a repair shop except to pick up the car will tell a bunch of us whove been doping this for years how it all works wasting time for..... days while the op doesnt have a clue how to operate a vm.... he does now as several of us have given him a few clues. you just gave him suggestions that require him to visit a repair shop. if he cant operate a vm maybe his best option is a shop. my suggestions were 1 test battery voltage 2 test port voltage as comparison 3 act accordingly. all easily done on his own if he learns to operate a vm. what happened to the battery load test that used to be a first suggestion. your technique is getting better. swap 1 and 2 above and youll be there! - matt .

From : neil

ok i picked up a voltmeter $12 on sale at sears for a digital one. i set it to the 20v dc range and tested the battery and the two outlets both with the engine on and engine off. i followed the same testing protocol as i previously mentioned outlet alone inverter alone charger alone laptop off laptop on; only this time i got different results inverter shut itself off more than last time. i used the auxiliary power outlet in the inverter when the charger was plugged into it. here are my results listed in the order the tests were performed. battery ----------------- engine off 13.0 engine on 13.5 front power outlet engine off ---------------------------------- outlet alone 13.0 with inverter alone 12.9 with charger alone in inverter 12.8 with laptop plugged in off and charging 12.0 with laptop plugged in on and charging 11.2 these were with all doors closed and all interior lights and other accessories off. however when first testing the side door was open. there were no interior lights on turned them off with the switch. however a small light in the dash telling me the door was open was on. in this scenario when i plugged the laptop in with it on and charging the inverter turned itself off. when the door was then closed i got the above reading 11.2v. front power outlet engine on ---------------------------------- outlet alone 13.5 with inverter alone 13.4 with charger alone in inverter 13.4 with laptop plugged in off and charging 12.4 with laptop plugged in on and charging 12.0 in this setup the doors were closed. however i tested it with the door open as per above when the inverter turned off. in that case i got 12.2v for the last one instead of 12.0. that doesnt really make sense that the voltage would be higher. so maybe there was some fluctuation. rear power outlet engine on ---------------------------------- outlet alone 13.5 with inverter alone 13.4 with charger alone in inverter 13.3 with laptop plugged in off and charging 12.0 with laptop plugged in on and charging inverter turned off rear power outlet engine off ---------------------------------- outlet alone 13.2 with inverter alone 13.1 with charger alone in inverter 13.0 with laptop plugged in off and charging inverter turned off with laptop plugged in on and charging inverter turned off note that the engine had been on for the two previous tests which might explain why the outlet had 13.2v while the battery with the engine off had previously tested at 13.0v. this is all the more interesting though since the inverter turned itself off with the laptop off and plugged in. previously the inverter remained on in the rear outlet when the laptop was off and plugged in. yet here the outlet is showing a higher voltage of 13.2v with nothing in it yet the inverter didnt stay on with the laptop off and plugged in. tested that twice. thanks! neil on sun 12 mar 2006 191325 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote how does one take a voltmeter and get the voltage at a car power outlet or in this case the auxiliary power outlet in the inverter i think thats clear to everyone in this thread except me. thanks. neil wrote actually splitter isnt necessary. the inverter has an auxiliary power outlet in case you want to plug in a cigarette lighter or cell phone or whatever in addition to the ac outlet. which makes the statement by the dealer that they didnt have a meter to measure voltage there even more ridiculous than first thought. as someone else pointed out they ae giving you the brush off. and it means that all you need is the meter. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x put the red lead on the little contact in the middle of the outlet and the black lead on the outer contact or any good chassis ground. that simple. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : bill putney

max dodge wrote when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the ***engine is off ***with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. the question is about the engine off condition which seems to play games with the invertor. if you think its something different you missed the boat. go back to op and start over. ok - so were back to voltage drop in the wires *plus* the normal good battery voltage being lower than the running voltage. so it all adds up to the inverter is not getting the voltage it needs to run which will be confirmed once the measurements are taken at the socket. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : bill putney

max dodge wrote sure they are. but first test in diagnostics is to check to see that the source of power is stable and performing to spec. i didnt say the problem was the battery i did say that checking the battery and confirming it as operating properly is the first step. ill repeat for you that are hard of reading 1 check battery nominal voltage. 2 check power port voltage 3 act accordingly. wtf dont you understand about that everyone was confused by your statement yesterday morning posted at 1027 have a load test done elsewhere or simply replace the battery followed by your subsequent claim that you never said to replace the battery without testing any further. so by making statements all over the map and then cherry picking what you want out of all you said and denying the rest you can claim that you never said simply replace the battery. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : neil

by jump post i assume you dont mean the battery post. if not then im not sure what youre referring to. neil wrote ...2 something ive noticed a couple of times in the short time ive had the car is that the headlights every once in a while will flicker off then on again once or twice within a couple of seconds and then be fine... this is sometimes a problem in lh cars and when it happens it is often the result of loose power connections at the positive jump post. vibration and self heating of the high-resistance joint cause intermittent flickering of power which will only be evident to you in headlight flickering until the joint resistance gets so high that the engine will cut off or the starter wont work - starter is on a different cable but goes thru the same stud connection. i dont know if the van has this same jump post but you might check into that or other joints in the power cables. it might in fact be that youre dropping a half a volt or so consistently with momentary fluctuations again due to vibration and self-heating thru such a joint but as youve been led to believe and rightly so thats probably not the *main* problem with your power converter. the main problem is almost certainly an ohmic drop in the wire going to the socket. and i cant believe that this problem has generated a thread this long. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : matt whiting

max dodge wrote bill it is clear he doesnt understand the fundamentals of ohms law let alone how a voltage regulator works. i understand both very well. i also understand diagnotic procedure and scientific method. im also well versed in this sort of problem as its quite common in battery based electrical systems. further you both seem to think testing the port voltage will show something without knowledge of battery voltage. id like to know to what you will compare this port reading in order to determine its value uh id probably compare it to something like 12v since this is after all a 12v system. now if i was checking an outlet in my house id probably check it against oh say 120v. if i was testing something powered a 9v transistor battery i might test it against something like 9v. are you catching on yet now if you tell me that the nominal voltage of the power source is not known then i would test the power source first but that simply isnt the case in a car or most other electrical and electronic devices. matt .

From : matt whiting

max dodge wrote maybe you dont know the meaning of or but to refresh your memory or means that you can either do the thing before the or or the thing after the or. no order is implied. so the above is suggesting that you can either perform a test or you can replace the battery without having tested it. youve been defied. any comment - yeah based on you knowledgable types thinking the battery should have 2.2v per cell anything less than 13.2 indicates a bad battery. so yeah using your vast knowledge i was stupid to suggest a second test of the battery. he should have just replaced it. i never said a lead acid battery should have a cell voltage of 2.2v. now it is my turn ... i defy you to find where i said that. now are you going to comment about both bill and me pointing out your lie matt .

From : ken weitzel

max dodge wrote bill it is clear he doesnt understand the fundamentals of ohms law let alone how a voltage regulator works. i understand both very well. i also understand diagnotic procedure and scientific method. im also well versed in this sort of problem as its quite common in battery based electrical systems. further you both seem to think testing the port voltage will show something without knowledge of battery voltage. id like to know to what you will compare this port reading in order to determine its value hi... ouch you guys are making the old retired electrical guys head hurt in this case check whats available at what youre calling a port; compare it to whats expected - in this case 12ish volts. if you dont find what you expect then work your way backward from there. hey when i flip the kitchen light switch and it stays dark i shouldnt book a flight to niagara falls right and in addition seems to me that youre all overlooking the ops original comment that the invertor beeped before shutting down. methinks theres a really important clue there take care. ken .

From : neil

1 tonight i was driving with the laptop turned off but plugged into the rear power outlet. shouldnt be a problem according to tests ive done with the engine off; but with the engine on definitely shouldnt be a problem. however while stopped at a red light the inverted emitted the familiar 5-second beep and turned off indicating the power to the rear had dropped below 10.5v. unplugged the inverter and plugged it back in again and it worked fine from then on. but the fact that the power to the rear would drop to below 10.5v while the engine was on and alternator was supplying power is very disconcerting. at idle with headlights and heater fans running your battery was likely close to or below 12.2 volts. actually the headlights werent on it was about an hour before sunset. and here in texas its been in the 70s or 80s so no heater! might have had the ac on a little though. 2 something ive noticed a couple of times in the short time ive had the car is that the headlights every once in a while will flicker off then on again once or twice within a couple of seconds and then be fine. as stated this has only happened a couple of times and i was hoping that it would just go away. but this may be related to this problem. i.e. the car may have some serious electrical problems in general. if the lights are flickering you 90% or better chance have a compromised body ground. put a booster cable from the battery negative to a good clean bare metal contact on the body of the van and retest. retest the flickering happens intermittently. only noticed it a couple of times in the week ive had the car. thanks neil thanks for any input! neil on sat 11 mar 2006 234831 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote some more notes regarding this. with engine off i plug in the power inverter with nothing connected to inverter. get low voltage alarm 11.5v but inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop charger not connected to laptop and lights in laptop charger come on and inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop in need of charge but with laptop itself turned off to laptop charger. laptop lights show its charging and inverter stays on. i then unplug the laptop from charger while still in need of charge and turn it on. after laptop is booted i plug laptop back into charger. get a long alarm 5 seconds from inverter and it turns itself off indicating that voltage is 10.5v. thus it seems that even without a load except for the inverter its getting 11.5v. and its able to handle a small load but not the load with the laptop on. but again its only a 90w charger. and also again didnt have a problem with past two cars i had. regarding the battery itself there are my notes from the autozone battery test. 628 cold cranking amps 12.8v with alternator off 13.82 with alternator on thanks for any input. your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. your 90 watt inverter is ok. your laptop charger is ok. your laptop is ok. the wires to the back power outlet are too light for the length. get an automotive electrician to run a secondheavier wire from the fuse box back to the outlet. connect it in parallel with the original from a s close to the fuse as possible to as close to the plug as possible. cost less than a new battery and actually solve the problem. neil i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for the power inverter and for the laptop charger are below. thanks for any input! neil power inver

From : neil

when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. ...indicates to me that the problem is in engine off mode. as such its a battery problem. im totally ignorant about these things and i shouldnt jump in here. but i just want to state that i dont think that what i wrote above necessarily indicates a battery problem. when the engines on there is more power due to the alternator. no one disputes that. so if the lines arent providing enough power to the power outlet then the inverter might work fine with the engine/alternator on but still be much lower than it should be but enough to keep the inverter running; whereas when the engine is off and the power is naturally less its below the threshold that the inverter accepts. thus the problem could be that the outlets arent getting enough power but are getting at least the minimal with the engine on though they should be getting more. that being said the voltage readings i just posted seem to discount that. however i just wanted to point out that the problem only manifests itself with the engine off doesnt mean that the problem doesnt exist with the engine on although perhaps not manifested. neil .

From : matt whiting

ken weitzel wrote max dodge wrote bill it is clear he doesnt understand the fundamentals of ohms law let alone how a voltage regulator works. i understand both very well. i also understand diagnotic procedure and scientific method. im also well versed in this sort of problem as its quite common in battery based electrical systems. further you both seem to think testing the port voltage will show something without knowledge of battery voltage. id like to know to what you will compare this port reading in order to determine its value hi... ouch you guys are making the old retired electrical guys head hurt in this case check whats available at what youre calling a port; compare it to whats expected - in this case 12ish volts. if you dont find what you expect then work your way backward from there. ken you are a genius! check against what is expected. what a concept. max are you listening - matt .

From : max dodge

and a new battery which at three years on a factory battery isnt a bad idea at all. the factory delco battery in my 85 jeep comanche lasted 9 years so i wouldnt have considered replacing at at 1/3 of its life to be a good idea. i guess we just have different definitions of good idea. ever have a late model mopar battery ever consider that 9 years is 4 over the average life of the best lead acid battery life expectancy on the market meanwhile a bunch of guys who never set foot in a repair shop except to pick up the car will tell a bunch of us whove been doping this for years how it all works wasting time for..... days while the op doesnt have a clue how to operate a vm.... he does now as several of us have given him a few clues. you just gave him suggestions that require him to visit a repair shop. if he cant operate a vm maybe his best option is a shop. my suggestions were 1 test battery voltage 2 test port voltage as comparison 3 act accordingly. all easily done on his own if he learns to operate a vm. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote wrong braniac it would have a proven the battery was at fault or b shown the problem to be with the inverter power outlet or wiring to that outlet either way the original poster would have had a definitive answer and a new battery which at three years on a factory battery isnt a bad idea at all. the factory delco battery in my 85 jeep comanche lasted 9 years so i wouldnt have considered replacing at at 1/3 of its life to be a good idea. i guess we just have different definitions of good idea. meanwhile a bunch of guys who never set foot in a repair shop except to pick up the car will tell a bunch of us whove been doping this for years how it all works wasting time for..... days while the op doesnt have a clue how to operate a vm.... he does now as several of us have given him a few clues. you just gave him suggestions that require him to visit a repair shop. matt .

From : max dodge

no i would check the voltage at the power outlet first. then i would check the battery and other components as necessary. since he said he had already had the battery voltage tested and gave the value which is well withing spec for a good battery i didnt see a need to check the battery a second time. given that the battery is 3 years old and a factory battery and that it read 12.6 just after being in a charge cycle and that 2.2v per cell is .6 more volts than were found confirmation of battery condition is well within reason. second since the test of the port was not within moments of the battery voltage test the battery will need to be retested at the same time testing of the port is done so an accurate comparison may be done. it isnt like the voltage on a car bus is an unknown quantity. if it isnt within spitting distance of 12v then something is amiss. now if you told me that the voltage of my power source was unknown then id probably check that first but in a car the bus voltage specification is known. the voltage at the outlet is either in spec or it isnt. i dont need to check the battery first to determine if the voltage at the power outlet is correct. typical reply of someone who doesnt take into account ambient temp rest time of battery charge cycle voltage age of the battery condition of the battery and quality of construction of the battery. testing battery voltage inorder to compare it to the port voltage is essential. proper training says do it first but when only two things need to be tested doing it second will suffice.... but it must be done. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote that is a cluelss service manager. ive had batteries last less than 3 years and 40000 miles and ive had batteries last 9 years and over 100000 miles. you simply cant judge battery condition by age or mileage alone. really so would you test the battery first or simply assume it was ok and not know if your diagnostics were properly indicating the problem no i would check the voltage at the power outlet first. then i would check the battery and other components as necessary. since he said he had already had the battery voltage tested and gave the value which is well withing spec for a good battery i didnt see a need to check the battery a second time. seems like a lot of you experts would skip the battery test and move directly to measuring voltage at the power port to compare it to....... oh... thats right you didnt check the battery....so you wont know if the wiring is the problem.... or if the draw by the device is the problem..... or if some protective circuitry is working.... it isnt like the voltage on a car bus is an unknown quantity. if it isnt within spitting distance of 12v then something is amiss. now if you told me that the voltage of my power source was unknown then id probably check that first but in a car the bus voltage specification is known. the voltage at the outlet is either in spec or it isnt. i dont need to check the battery first to determine if the voltage at the power outlet is correct. matt .

From : neil

yes it has been in the batt position since i bought the car last week and the back power outlet works without the key. however the front one still requires a key. any suggestions on how to get that one to be on all the time not that its relevant to this discussion but it would be good to know if it were possible. the service manager at the dodge dealer said that dodge starting disabling the always-on setting for the front power outlet even with the fuse in the batt position because of people leaving their cell phone chargers plugged into the front and it starting fires in the front carpeting. neil i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for the power inverter and for the laptop charger are below. thanks for any input! neil power inverter specs capacity 140w input voltage 12vdc dc input voltage range 10.5 - 15.8vdc output voltage nominal 120vac 5% dc voltage 12vdc cigarette jack frequency 60 hz 3% continuous output power 140w peak output power 270w laptop charger specs power provided 90 w product type power adapter type ac adapter voltage required 100 to 240 vac max output current 4.5 a max. at 4-second pulse 3.5 a continuous neil i havent been following this whole thread and im not sure if this will help but on the 2001-2005 fuse number 6 in the junction block has 3 slots it is stamped b+ or ign on the ipm. if the fuse is in the slot that is marked ign take it out and slide it over to the batt slot. this will now make the power outlet hot all the time when the key is in the off position. this should be in your owners manual.. like i said i have not been following this thread so this may have already been bought to your attention.. glenn beasley chrysler tech .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on sun 12 mar 2006 210214 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote and at the risk of sounding ignorant which i am but i dont want to sound that way - which lead goes to which terminal or does it matter digital doesnt matter but red is posotivecenter and black in negative ground - outer *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : max dodge

except that the normal cell voltage for a lead acid battery is 2-2.1 and anything above about 2.15v/cell will charge the battery. better tell that to your expert buddies. ill restate for clarity.... 12.6 isnt optimum for a freshly charged battery. comparison to battery voltage is the only way to tell if the port is lower than it should be for proper operation. comparison of port voltage while engine is off and inverter is operating to battery voltage under the same conditions is the only way to find if the voltage drop is caused by inverter operation. if any of the above is left out the diagnostics will not accurately reflect the problem and you might as will be replacing parts in hope of a cure. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote they are more accurate than a load test. terrific! then i repeat 12.6 volts is too low. as we know 2.2 volts per cell comes up at 13.2v therefore the battery is bad. except that the normal cell voltage for a lead acid battery is 2-2.1 and anything above about 2.15v/cell will charge the battery. matt .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on sun 12 mar 2006 215313 gmt gary glaenzer glaenzer@verizon.net wrote transconductance surely you jest transconductance transconductance is a measure of the change in plate current to a change in grid voltage with plate voltage held constant. the unit for conductance is the mho siemens pronounced moe. transconductance is normally expressed in either micromhos or millimhos. its referred to as a trasconductance tester - i guess to be perfectly accurate its a conductance tester. regardless it works. on sun 12 mar 2006 085028 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. rubbish. with alt charging the system should show over 14v. second as yet no one has shown results of a load test which is the only way to find out how it works under a load. funny how that works...... auto zone and most battery retailers use a transconductance tester such as a midtronics tester to test batteries. most battery suppliers require the battery to be tested on one before replacement. it can test a battery that is 3/4 discharged accurately. if a midtronics tester says the battery is shot its shot. if it says its good 99.9% of the time its good. the only exception is an intermittent intercel connector which may test perfectly good once and read 100% dead even with a voltmeter the next. ive seen that happen only once. they are more accurate than a load test. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : matt whiting

max dodge wrote except that the normal cell voltage for a lead acid battery is 2-2.1 and anything above about 2.15v/cell will charge the battery. better tell that to your expert buddies. the only other person here who has in the past demonstrated significant knowledge of things electrical is bill and i havent seen bill claim 2.2v per cell. matt .

From : ted mittelstaedt

neil wrote the voltmeter they were referring to was one that could test the voltage at the socket as the person had suggested. neither said they had a voltmeter that could test voltage at the socket though they had regular voltmeters. that was an excuse for lazy mechanics - very lazy mechanics. they were taking advantage of your ignorance and i dont mean that as an insult to you. to hear them youd think that to measure voltage at a battery youd need to buy one voltmeter then to read voltage at a starter youd need a special voltmeter for reading the voltage at a starter ad infinitum. dont forget you need a different voltmeter to read ac and a different one to read dc... dont laugh someone somewhere would buy them. ted .

From : ted mittelstaedt

both of which need to be tested using a known good battery. wow ive said this several times now and all you engineers refuse to believe that knowing your baseline voltage is essential to finding a drop in the wiring. max and others! doesent anyone who is posting to this thread have a 2003 caravan that they could spend a few minutes with a dvm to make some measurements with to give the op something for comparisons sake ted .

From : ted mittelstaedt

and a new battery which at three years on a factory battery isnt a bad idea at all. meanwhile a bunch of guys who never set foot in a repair shop except to pick up the car will tell a bunch of us whove been doping this for years how it all works wasting time for..... days while the op doesnt have a clue how to operate a vm.... take the fucking thing to a garage and forget asking here half of us dont have a clue the other half have too much info. max this is completely stupid. if the op was going to do the shotgun approach a much better way than screwing with the battery would be to simply go to an electronics store and buy a different brand of inverter that didnt have such a sensitive low voltage detection circuit. why go to a shop at all frankly in my humble opinion auto electronics should operate in a voltage range from 9v-16v as an auto electrical system is probably one of the more hostile power systems you can find. ted .

From : ted mittelstaedt

max dodge wrote lol load tester $60 but not applied to bill one minute of test time $1 information leading to battery condition knowledge priceless. ive done them for well over 30 years quite successfully and have never needed a load tester. i can quickly isolate most problems without needing more than a $10 dvm. matt your absolutely right a battery load tester is a big waste of money for automotive troubleshooting. a battery load tester is a great thing if what your doing is preventative maintainence on a rack of 10 sealed lead-acid gell cells for some 15k watt large ups and each battery costs $80 and all they do is sit there on a charger 24 hours a day. but for automotive testing the headlights and starter provide plenty of load for testing all you really need is a volt meter and a battery hydrometer. ted .

From : ted mittelstaedt

auto zone and most battery retailers use a transconductance tester such as a midtronics tester to test batteries. most battery suppliers require the battery to be tested on one before replacement. it can test a battery that is 3/4 discharged accurately. if a midtronics tester says the battery is shot its shot. if it says its good 99.9% of the time its good. the only exception is an intermittent intercel connector which may test perfectly good once and read 100% dead even with a voltmeter the next. ive seen that happen only once. unfortunately those testers also miss batteries that have a high rate of self-discharge for some reason or another. my wife had one of these once a sears diehard. i could disconnect the negative battery lead and 2 days later the battery couldnt start the car. sears refused to replace it under warranty. that was the last diehard i ever bought. ted .

From : neil

i have 2 inverters a plug in one for when we rent cars and a real one thats in the ram and hard wired.. both work well in our trucks but the real one has a 40 amp fuse so plugging it into a power outlet with a 20 amp fuse seems a little strange... both inverters will beep when you turn the ignition on or off but ive had the laptop running from the hardwired one for up to an hour and still had plenty of cranking power.. the plug in one turns off within 15 minutes.. my guess is that because it doesnt have an on/off switch like the other one its more sensitive to power drop i havent had a problem with the plug-in one that im using until now when i bought the caravan last week. used it on the jimmy i had before it and used a different one with the cavalier i had before that. never had a problem with it running for a long time. neil mac https//home.comcast.net/mac.davis https//home.comcast.net/mac.davis/woodstuff.htm .

From : maxpower

yes it has been in the batt position since i bought the car last week and the back power outlet works without the key. however the front one still requires a key. any suggestions on how to get that one to be on all the time not that its relevant to this discussion but it would be good to know if it were possible. the service manager at the dodge dealer said that dodge starting disabling the always-on setting for the front power outlet even with the fuse in the batt position because of people leaving their cell phone chargers plugged into the front and it starting fires in the front carpeting. neil i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for the power inverter and for the laptop charger are below. thanks for any input! neil power inverter specs capacity 140w input voltage 12vdc dc input voltage range 10.5 - 15.8vdc output voltage nominal 120vac 5% dc voltage 12vdc cigarette jack frequency 60 hz 3% continuous output power 140w peak output power 270w laptop charger specs power provided 90 w product type power adapter type ac adapter voltage required 100 to 240 vac max output current 4.5 a max. at 4-second pulse 3.5 a continuous neil i havent been following this whole thread and im not sure if this will help but on the 2001-2005 fuse number 6 in the junction block has 3 slots it is stamped b+ or ign on the ipm. if the fuse is in the slot that is marked ign take it out and slide it over to the batt slot. this will now make the power outlet hot all the time when the key is in the off position. this should be in your owners manual.. like i said i have not been following this thread so this may have already been bought to your attention.. glenn beasley chrysler tech you would have to rewire the front one to make it hot all the time .

From : matt whiting

ted mittelstaedt wrote max dodge wrote lol load tester $60 but not applied to bill one minute of test time $1 information leading to battery condition knowledge priceless. ive done them for well over 30 years quite successfully and have never needed a load tester. i can quickly isolate most problems without needing more than a $10 dvm. matt your absolutely right a battery load tester is a big waste of money for automotive troubleshooting. a battery load tester is a great thing if what your doing is preventative maintainence on a rack of 10 sealed lead-acid gell cells for some 15k watt large ups and each battery costs $80 and all they do is sit there on a charger 24 hours a day. but for automotive testing the headlights and starter provide plenty of load for testing all you really need is a volt meter and a battery hydrometer. load testers have their place to be sure but on the rare occasions i need one i take my battery to a garage and have it tested. it is rare that this test is needed so i havent bothered to invest in one myself. modern batteries are just too reliable to need this sort of tester for routine testing. matt .

From : bill putney

max dodge wrote a regulator cannot force an alternator to put out full regulated voltage if the alternator is not turning fast enough - often the case at idle on vehicles with typical loads turned on. false. voltage will be at whatever the vr sets it to be regardless of rpm. wow - so we have a perpetual motion machine in our alternators eh so that regulator will force the alternator to put out 14 volts even with the alternator rpm 0 no you say ok - what about 2 rpm what about 100 rpm. this is silly. there is a certain minimum rpm at which regulation falls off and most vehicles will have tapered off at idle with some load on it some with minimal load. to reiterate your claim that analternator will put out full regulated voltage at all rpms including 0 is ridiculous and flat out false. and just because some vehicle will regulate fully at idle with minimum load doesn;t mean they all will - most wont. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : matt whiting

max dodge wrote no i would check the voltage at the power outlet first. then i would check the battery and other components as necessary. since he said he had already had the battery voltage tested and gave the value which is well withing spec for a good battery i didnt see a need to check the battery a second time. given that the battery is 3 years old and a factory battery and that it read 12.6 just after being in a charge cycle and that 2.2v per cell is .6 more volts than were found confirmation of battery condition is well within reason. second since the test of the port was not within moments of the battery voltage test the battery will need to be retested at the same time testing of the port is done so an accurate comparison may be done. except that 2.2v per cell isnt correct. it isnt like the voltage on a car bus is an unknown quantity. if it isnt within spitting distance of 12v then something is amiss. now if you told me that the voltage of my power source was unknown then id probably check that first but in a car the bus voltage specification is known. the voltage at the outlet is either in spec or it isnt. i dont need to check the battery first to determine if the voltage at the power outlet is correct. typical reply of someone who doesnt take into account ambient temp rest time of battery charge cycle voltage age of the battery condition of the battery and quality of construction of the battery. testing battery voltage inorder to compare it to the port voltage is essential. proper training says do it first but when only two things need to be tested doing it second will suffice.... but it must be done. typical answer of someone advocating expensive tests before inexpensive tests. you must run a garage. if the power outlet tests 12.6v or higher open circuit and 11v or greater under load at the outlet why do you need to test the battery why must the battery be tested id be testing the inverter at that point... matt .

From : tbone

reaching into the socket as you suggest would be pointless as with no load their will always be battery voltage if the socket is powered. the drop comes from current draw which will only happen if the load is connected and then there is no reaching into the socket. you could tag the connectors to the socket but that is probably more of a pita then they are willing to do for free. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving well jesus mary and joseph how f*cking difficult is it to reach down into the g*dd*m socket and test it or stick a probe in the wires coming off the plug and test it that way heres a hint buy your own voltmeter and learn to use it so you wont be at the mercy of idiots the voltmeter they were referring to was one that could test the voltage at the socket as the person had suggested. neither said they had a voltmeter that could test voltage at the socket though they had regular voltmeters. on sat 11 mar 2006 224128 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote yes thats a good idea. i actually asked two places out that -- a goodyear repair place and the dodge dealer service center. both said they didnt have any such voltmeter. neil wrote actually ive tested it with the engine off and it only stays on a few seconds. not sure what the batter saver function is; but if the battery is fully charged then a 90w drain shouldnt be that much for it. but the inverter shuts down after a couple of seconds with the engine off. chrysler vehicles have a battery saver function that may be shutting down the load a few minutes after killing the ignition. besides the good suggestion of others that the socket may become depowered with ign. off i cant believe that no one has suggested - are you ready for a mind-blowing idea - that you take a *voltmeter* and actually read the *voltage* at the lighter socket both with the inverter as a load and without load. it may not give you the *whole* story but it certainly would answer a lot of questions about what is going on with the voltage levels - like is there too much drop in the wire to the socket *or* is the system voltage dropping *or* is something actively *disconnecting* the socket from power *or* etc. etc. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x you need to find someone electrically and automotively knowlegeable with a voltmeter to make the tests for you. very basic test for those who know about these things. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : tbone

which also means that the red lead connects to the center pin and the black one goes to the case or side of the connector. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving neil wrote and at the risk of sounding ignorant which i am but i dont want to sound that way - which lead goes to which terminal or does it matter convention is red for positive and black for negative but most modern dvms will simply show you a negative value if you reverse polarity. matt .

From : tbone

if you get a meter with needle probes you could use them to pierce the insulation on the wires to your inverter and read the voltage there as it will be the same voltage as at the plug. there is nothing different about the meter itself only how they connect. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving no i havent and per the other message i just posted here i dont know here i can get a meter than reads voltage in the actual power outlet. i suppose i could put a meter on the battery and see what happens. on 3/11/2006 438 pm ... neil wrote actually ive tested it with the engine off and it only stays on a few seconds. not sure what the batter saver function is; but if the battery is fully charged then a 90w drain shouldnt be that much for it. but the inverter shuts down after a couple of seconds with the engine off. chrysler vehicles have a battery saver function that may be shutting down the load a few minutes after killing the ignition. it wouldnt be the battery saver system then. it waits a few minutes before killing loads it knows shouldnt normally be drawing power. have you put a meter on the circuit to see what voltage reading youre actually getting .

From : tbone

actually what they are saying is that they dont have an adapter to get to the power connections with the inverter plugged in. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving neil wrote yes thats a good idea. i actually asked two places out that -- a goodyear repair place and the dodge dealer service center. both said they didnt have any such voltmeter. repair places without voltmeters multimeters! what will they think of next. amazing. but i guess im not surprised. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x neil wrote actually ive tested it with the engine off and it only stays on a few seconds. not sure what the batter saver function is; but if the battery is fully charged then a 90w drain shouldnt be that much for it. but the inverter shuts down after a couple of seconds with the engine off. chrysler vehicles have a battery saver function that may be shutting down the load a few minutes after killing the ignition. besides the good suggestion of others that the socket may become depowered with ign. off i cant believe that no one has suggested - are you ready for a mind-blowing idea - that you take a *voltmeter* and actually read the *voltage* at the lighter socket both with the inverter as a load and without load. it may not give you the *whole* story but it certainly would answer a lot of questions about what is going on with the voltage levels - like is there too much drop in the wire to the socket *or* is the system voltage dropping *or* is something actively *disconnecting* the socket from power *or* etc. etc. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : tbone

no it is not that simple. he needs to make both contacts in the socket. the problem could be a corroded ground connection in the socket and your test would eliminate that and possibly give false results. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving on sun 12 mar 2006 191325 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote how does one take a voltmeter and get the voltage at a car power outlet or in this case the auxiliary power outlet in the inverter i think thats clear to everyone in this thread except me. thanks. neil wrote actually splitter isnt necessary. the inverter has an auxiliary power outlet in case you want to plug in a cigarette lighter or cell phone or whatever in addition to the ac outlet. which makes the statement by the dealer that they didnt have a meter to measure voltage there even more ridiculous than first thought. as someone else pointed out they ae giving you the brush off. and it means that all you need is the meter. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x put the red lead on the little contact in the middle of the outlet and the black lead on the outer contact or any good chassis ground. that simple. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : mac davis

on sun 12 mar 2006 212849 gmt fmb fmbb@sbcglobal.net wrote on sat 11 mar 2006 184244 gmt fmb fmbb@sbcglobal.net wrote umm... bob... the power outlet that turns off with the ignition is called a lighter not a power outlet.. *g* crap mac this thread sure turned into a zoo. i call them all power outlets cause that is how i use them. i have 3; two on the dash one is switched by the key and one in the center seat back storage area. that is where i keep my inverter that runs various chargers. on our trip last year it kept 2 video cameras and 2 puters charged up and running. now you made me rtfm. i now know the mechanical differences in the two types of recepticals; the cigar lighter has clips near the bottom to hold the lighter the power outlets do not. more than i needed to know but im bored today. waiting for u-joints damn! thats research... i thought the only difference besides the labels on them was being switched or unswitched! what did you get for a hardwired one where did you mount it and do you have outlets seperate from the inverter i got the audiovox 400 watt one.. cheapest one i could find at the time about 2 years ago that had good reviews... it was about $70 and at the time was less expensive than buying a new battery for my laptop.. *g* i have a 99 ram with the famous pos fold down cup holders and no real console storage except the arm rest... i built a box that sits on the floor between the middle seat and the cupholder.. jammed against the dash to keep the cupholder from rattling.. its got cup holders cb and invertor mounted in it and an ash tray with snubbers on top.. i only use the 2 outlets on the invertor but have run an extension cord to the back seat to keep the grand critters busy with their games.. the hard wiring worked well because i put a fused junction box inside the box and wired the cb invertor and 2 power outlets on the sides of the box off of it.. the mickey mouse approach works for me!! nan wants a box built for the dakota now mac https//home.comcast.net/mac.davis https//home.comcast.net/mac.davis/woodstuff.htm .

From : mac davis

on mon 13 mar 2006 091756 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote i havent had a problem with the plug-in one that im using until now when i bought the caravan last week. used it on the jimmy i had before it and used a different one with the cavalier i had before that. never had a problem with it running for a long time. neil well im definitely not a tech but i have to wonder if the cheby has larger gauge wires to the power outlet... mac https//home.comcast.net/mac.davis https//home.comcast.net/mac.davis/woodstuff.htm .

From : tbone

get used to this dude ax is the master of spin and never admits to error of any kind. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving max dodge wrote here is what you said have a load test done elsewhere or simply replace the battery. i accept that you made that statement in the context of the 12.8v reading which i dont readily accept as indicative of a bad battery but i will take your word for it at this point. 12.8v just after charging indicates to me that nominal after a cool down might be lower than the invertor wants to see. however as you admit i did suggest another load test prior to simply replacing it this predicated on the difficulty/cost of getting a second more accurate test. also i dont accept that a weak battery one without a shorted cell which is not indicated by the information that we have will in any way pull down a properly functioning alternator - so the fact that the op is having undervoltage issues at the socket *with* *the* *engine* *running* says to me that this particular problem is *not* caused by the battery - it is a voltage drop somewhere else in the system supplying power to the socket. this according to the original post when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. that was pretty sneaky and dishonest! heres the complete sentence the beginning of which you conveniently left out when the engine is running emphasis added the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. ...indicates to me that the problem is in engine off mode. as such its a battery problem. well since you misread the op and now cant admit that you need to read it correctly now and re-think your position. with the engine off all bets are off on the inverter running with some finite line drop and nominal non-charging battery voltage. whether the inverter runs properly with the engine off should not be a concern. ...except i still take exception with you that a weak non-shorted cell battery would explain an undervoltage condition with the engine running and a working alternator. not to say his battery isnt bad or weak but it aint causing this particular problem with the engine running. engine is not running. wtf not before you applied your sleight-of-hand to the ops orignal post. also - let the record show that well into this thread i was the very first person to make the obvious suggestion of actually using a voltmeter to measure the voltage *at* *the* *socket* - not gary not that it matters but.... and you are the first person that seems to think that the engine runs while its off..... please check the op if you doubt my words above. no - you are the first to pretend that it is off when it is in fact running in which case the inverter works - according to the op. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : tbone

is that how you fix transmissions gary -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving gary glaenzer wrote bill putney wrote max dodge wrote ...anytime a problem that might be related to battery load occurs the first test is the source of power to determine its capacity capability and performance under load. only when you have a known quantity as the power source can you accurately determine other issues such as voltage drop to the power port. but earlier you suggested willy-nilly replacing the battery without determining where the problem is by intelligent voltage tests. except for a shorted cell condition which is obviously not the case here for all practical purposes i.e. all but extreme system loading a weak battery will not show up with the alternator pumping out over 14 volts which the inverter should run with handily - barring voltage drops elsewhere in the system. im not following your logic. there is no logic to parts replacers. folks that use logic - troubleshoot. those without logic replace parts until they get lucky. in this case two full days have been wasted farting around and 10 minutes spent replacing the battery which is alread three years old would have given a definitive answer it would have given a definitive answer only if the battery is the problem. if the problem lies elsewhere replacing the battery wouldnt have done a thing for the problem and cost you money for no good reason. wrong braniac it would have a proven the battery was at fault or b shown the problem to be with the inverter power outlet or wiring to that outlet either way the original poster would have had a definitive answer that is why a true diagnostician checks things out systematically before replacing parts. matt .

From : tbone

too bad you seem to be in the first half . -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving wrong braniac it would have a proven the battery was at fault or b shown the problem to be with the inverter power outlet or wiring to that outlet either way the original poster would have had a definitive answer and a new battery which at three years on a factory battery isnt a bad idea at all. meanwhile a bunch of guys who never set foot in a repair shop except to pick up the car will tell a bunch of us whove been doping this for years how it all works wasting time for..... days while the op doesnt have a clue how to operate a vm.... take the fucking thing to a garage and forget asking here half of us dont have a clue the other half have too much info. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author gary glaenzer wrote bill putney wrote max dodge wrote ...anytime a problem that might be related to battery load occurs the first test is the source of power to determine its capacity capability and performance under load. only when you have a known quantity as the power source can you accurately determine other issues such as voltage drop to the power port. but earlier you suggested willy-nilly replacing the battery without determining where the problem is by intelligent voltage tests. except for a shorted cell condition which is obviously not the case here for all practical purposes i.e. all but extreme system loading a weak battery will not show up with the alternator pumping out over 14 volts which the inverter should run with handily - barring voltage drops elsewhere in the system. im not following your logic. there is no logic to parts replacers. folks that use logic - troubleshoot. those without logic replace parts until they get lucky. in this case two full days have been wasted farting around and 10 minutes spent replacing the battery which is alread three years old would have given a definitive answer it would have given a definitive answer only if the battery is the problem. if the problem lies elsewhere replacing the battery wouldnt have done a thing for the problem and cost you money for no good reason. wrong braniac it would have a proven the battery was at fault or b shown the problem to be with the inverter power outlet or wiring to that outlet either way the original poster would have had a definitive answer that is why a true diagnostician checks things out systematically before replacing parts. matt .

From : neil

i did some more testing this morning after the cars been sitting all night. this time i tested the battery at each step to see if theres a battery drop. i only tested the power outlets with the engine off. here are the steps i took and the results. front power outlet -------------------------- battery 12.8 power outlet 12.7 plugged in inverter alone battery 12.7 inverter 12.6 plugged charger alone into inverter battery 12.6 inverter 12.4 plugged laptop into charger off but charging battery 12.4 inverter 11.7 plugged laptop into charger on and charging battery 12.4 inverter 11.3 inverter turned off after about 10 seconds. unplugged inverter plugged it back in got reading then inverter turned off again. rear power outlet -------------------------- unplugged everything from front power outlet. battery 12.7 power outlet 12.7 plugged in inverter alone battery 12.7 inverter 12.6 plugged charger alone into inverter battery 12.7 inverter 12.5 plugged laptop into charger off but charging battery 12.6 inverter 11.6 plugged laptop into charger on and charging inverter turned off too quickly to get a reading at the battery. however i placed the probes into the inverter auxiliary outlet and watched the voltage as someone else plugged in the laptop. before the laptop was plugged in inverter was at 12.5v which is the same as above. when laptop was plugged in inverter dropped to 11.6 stayed there for about a second and then inverter turned off. one would think that the inverter turned off at 11.6v. however given that in the tests done yesterday and today there was a 0.4-0.8v difference in the inverter between the laptop being on and the laptop being off; and since it was at 11.6v when it was off; it must have dropped below 11.6v and turned off before it could register on the vm. given the above two sets of numbers it seems that the inverter is turning off at around 11v. that seems like kind of a high threshold to me. however note again that i used this same inverter/laptop combination with my jimmy for a long time and didnt have a problem once. so perhaps the 11v threshold is correct and the voltage at the inverter should be above 11v with the laptop plugged in and on. ill repost the results from yesterday below so as to have them all in one message apologies for posting them twice. thanks neil ======== yesterdays results ======== battery ----------------- engine off 13.0 engine on 13.5 front power outlet engine off ---------------------------------- outlet alone 13.0 with inverter alone 12.9 with charger alone in inverter 12.8 with laptop plugged in off and charging 12.0 with laptop plugged in on and charging 11.2 these were with all doors closed and all interior lights and other accessories off. however when first testing the side door was open. there were no interior lights on turned them off with the switch. however a small light in the dash telling me the door was open was on. in this scenario when i plugged the laptop in with it on and charging the inverter turned itself off. when the door was then closed i got the above reading 11.2v. front power outlet engine on ---------------------------------- outlet alone 13.5 with inverter alone 13.4 with charger alone in inverter 13.4 with laptop plugged in off and charging 12.4 with laptop plugged in on and charging 12.0 in this setup the doors were closed. however i tested it with the door open as per above when the inverter turned off. in that case i got 12.2v for the last one instead of 12.0. that doesnt really make sense that the voltage would be higher. so maybe there was some fluctuation. rear power outlet engine on ---------------------------------- outlet alone 13.5 with inverter alone 13.4 with charger alone in inverter 13.3 with laptop plugged in off and charging 12.0 with laptop plugged in on and charging inverter turned off rear power outlet engine off ---------------------------------- outlet alone 13.2 with inverter alone 13.1 with charger alone in inverter 13.0 with laptop plugged in off and charging inverter turned off with laptop plugged in on and charging inverter turned off note that the engine had been on for the two previous tests which might explain why the outlet had 13.2v while the battery with the engine off had previously tested at 13.0v. this is all the more interesting though since the inverter turned itself off with the laptop off and plugged in. previously the inverter remained on in the rear outlet when the laptop was off and plugged in. yet here the outlet is showing a higher voltage of 13.2v with nothing in it yet the inverter didnt stay on with the laptop off and plugged in. tested that twice. =================================================== on sun 12 mar 2006 191325 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote how does one take a voltmeter and get the voltage at a car power outlet or in this case the

From : clare at snyder on ca

on sun 12 mar 2006 235420 -0800 ted mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com wrote neil wrote the voltmeter they were referring to was one that could test the voltage at the socket as the person had suggested. neither said they had a voltmeter that could test voltage at the socket though they had regular voltmeters. that was an excuse for lazy mechanics - very lazy mechanics. they were taking advantage of your ignorance and i dont mean that as an insult to you. to hear them youd think that to measure voltage at a battery youd need to buy one voltmeter then to read voltage at a starter youd need a special voltmeter for reading the voltage at a starter ad infinitum. dont forget you need a different voltmeter to read ac and a different one to read dc... dont laugh someone somewhere would buy them. ted virtually all multimeters or packaged voltmeters will read both. not likely to buy a bare panel meter to do this job. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on mon 13 mar 2006 145730 gmt tbone tbonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote no it is not that simple. he needs to make both contacts in the socket. the problem could be a corroded ground connection in the socket and your test would eliminate that and possibly give false results. yes it could be a bad ground. however if the voltage read low this way you would know it was either the wiring or the body ground. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on mon 13 mar 2006 183037 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote i did some more testing this morning after the cars been sitting all night. this time i tested the battery at each step to see if theres a battery drop. i only tested the power outlets with the engine off. here are the steps i took and the results. front power outlet -------------------------- battery 12.8 power outlet 12.7 plugged in inverter alone battery 12.7 inverter 12.6 plugged charger alone into inverter battery 12.6 inverter 12.4 plugged laptop into charger off but charging battery 12.4 inverter 11.7 plugged laptop into charger on and charging battery 12.4 inverter 11.3 inverter turned off after about 10 seconds. unplugged inverter plugged it back in got reading then inverter turned off again. ok under load you have 1.1 volts drop in the wiring to the front socket. this is definitely excessive. rear power outlet -------------------------- unplugged everything from front power outlet. battery 12.7 power outlet 12.7 plugged in inverter alone battery 12.7 inverter 12.6 plugged charger alone into inverter battery 12.7 inverter 12.5 plugged laptop into charger off but charging battery 12.6 inverter 11.6 plugged laptop into charger on and charging inverter turned off too quickly to get a reading at the battery. however i placed the probes into the inverter auxiliary outlet and watched the voltage as someone else plugged in the laptop. before the laptop was plugged in inverter was at 12.5v which is the same as above. when laptop was plugged in inverter dropped to 11.6 stayed there for about a second and then inverter turned off. one would think that the inverter turned off at 11.6v. however given that in the tests done yesterday and today there was a 0.4-0.8v difference in the inverter between the laptop being on and the laptop being off; and since it was at 11.6v when it was off; it must have dropped below 11.6v and turned off before it could register on the vm. again you have 1 volt drop with the inverter and charger connected and the laptop not running. this id definitely excessive. given the above two sets of numbers it seems that the inverter is turning off at around 11v. that seems like kind of a high threshold to me. however note again that i used this same inverter/laptop combination with my jimmy for a long time and didnt have a problem once. so perhaps the 11v threshold is correct and the voltage at the inverter should be above 11v with the laptop plugged in and on. ill repost the results from yesterday below so as to have them all in one message apologies for posting them twice. i would suggest you connect the voltmeter to the battery negative post and a clean bright ground on the body and turn on the headlights and heater fan. you will likely have to set the voltmeter to 2vdc to get an accurate reading but start on a range above 12 volts to be safe. i suspect you will read over 1 volt drop in which case you need to repair the body ground. thanks neil ======== yesterdays results ======== battery ----------------- engine off 13.0 engine on 13.5 front power outlet engine off ---------------------------------- outlet alone 13.0 with inverter alone 12.9 with charger alone in inverter 12.8 with laptop plugged in off and charging 12.0 with laptop plugged in on and charging 11.2 these were with all doors closed and all interior lights and other accessories off. however when first testing the side door was open. there were no interior lights on turned them off with the switch. however a small light in the dash telling me the door was open was on. in this scenario when i plugged the laptop in with it on and charging the inverter turned itself off. when the door was then closed i got the above reading 11.2v. front power outlet engine on ---------------------------------- outlet alone 13.5 with inverter alone 13.4 with charger alone in inverter 13.4 with laptop plugged in off and charging 12.4 with laptop plugged in on and charging 12.0 in this setup the doors were closed. however i tested it with the door open as per above when the inverter turned off. in that case i got 12.2v for the last one instead of 12.0. that doesnt really make sense that the voltage would be higher. so maybe there was some fluctuation. rear power outlet engine on ---------------------------------- outlet alone 13.5 with inverter alone 13.4 with charger alone in inverter 13.3 with laptop plugged in off and charging 12.0 with laptop plugged in on and charging inverter turned off rear power outlet engine off ---------------------------------- outlet alone 13.2 with inverter alone 13.1 with charger alone in inverter 13.0 with laptop plugged in off and charging inverter turned off with laptop plugged in on and charging inverter turned off note that the engine had been on for the two previous tests which might explain why the outle

From : clare at snyder on ca

on mon 13 mar 2006 025557 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote 1 tonight i was driving with the laptop turned off but plugged into the rear power outlet. shouldnt be a problem according to tests ive done with the engine off; but with the engine on definitely shouldnt be a problem. however while stopped at a red light the inverted emitted the familiar 5-second beep and turned off indicating the power to the rear had dropped below 10.5v. unplugged the inverter and plugged it back in again and it worked fine from then on. but the fact that the power to the rear would drop to below 10.5v while the engine was on and alternator was supplying power is very disconcerting. at idle with headlights and heater fans running your battery was likely close to or below 12.2 volts. actually the headlights werent on it was about an hour before sunset. and here in texas its been in the 70s or 80s so no heater! might have had the ac on a little though. 2 something ive noticed a couple of times in the short time ive had the car is that the headlights every once in a while will flicker off then on again once or twice within a couple of seconds and then be fine. as stated this has only happened a couple of times and i was hoping that it would just go away. but this may be related to this problem. i.e. the car may have some serious electrical problems in general. if the lights are flickering you 90% or better chance have a compromised body ground. put a booster cable from the battery negative to a good clean bare metal contact on the body of the van and retest. retest the flickering happens intermittently. only noticed it a couple of times in the week ive had the car. thanks neil i mean retest the inverter problem. thanks for any input! neil on sat 11 mar 2006 234831 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote some more notes regarding this. with engine off i plug in the power inverter with nothing connected to inverter. get low voltage alarm 11.5v but inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop charger not connected to laptop and lights in laptop charger come on and inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop in need of charge but with laptop itself turned off to laptop charger. laptop lights show its charging and inverter stays on. i then unplug the laptop from charger while still in need of charge and turn it on. after laptop is booted i plug laptop back into charger. get a long alarm 5 seconds from inverter and it turns itself off indicating that voltage is 10.5v. thus it seems that even without a load except for the inverter its getting 11.5v. and its able to handle a small load but not the load with the laptop on. but again its only a 90w charger. and also again didnt have a problem with past two cars i had. regarding the battery itself there are my notes from the autozone battery test. 628 cold cranking amps 12.8v with alternator off 13.82 with alternator on thanks for any input. your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. your 90 watt inverter is ok. your laptop charger is ok. your laptop is ok. the wires to the back power outlet are too light for the length. get an automotive electrician to run a secondheavier wire from the fuse box back to the outlet. connect it in parallel with the original from a s close to the fuse as possible to as close to the plug as possible. cost less than a new battery and actually solve the problem. neil i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for the p

From : clare at snyder on ca

on mon 13 mar 2006 015332 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote no max - it is 99.9% sure not a battery problem. it is a wiring problem. without knowing battery voltage you have no idea. we know the battery voltage not knowing the wiring schema on the caravan intimately id say either a bad body ground has been a problem on chryslers or a bad connection in the distribution system or an undersized wire. both of which need to be tested using a known good battery. wow ive said this several times now and all you engineers refuse to believe that knowing your baseline voltage is essential to finding a drop in the wiring. yes but we know the battery is not the problem. at least im confident from the information supplied and 40 years experience. all 3 are very possible and the booster post mentioned by another poster would be the second place to check if it has one after the body ground from my experience. sure they are. but first test in diagnostics is to check to see that the source of power is stable and performing to spec. i didnt say the problem was the battery i did say that checking the battery and confirming it as operating properly is the first step. ill repeat for you that are hard of reading 1 check battery nominal voltage. 2 check power port voltage 3 act accordingly. wtf dont you understand about that *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on mon 13 mar 2006 023520 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote maybe you dont know the meaning of or but to refresh your memory or means that you can either do the thing before the or or the thing after the or. no order is implied. so the above is suggesting that you can either perform a test or you can replace the battery without having tested it. youve been defied. any comment - yeah based on you knowledgable types thinking the battery should have 2.2v per cell anything less than 13.2 indicates a bad battery. so yeah using your vast knowledge i was stupid to suggest a second test of the battery. he should have just replaced it. max nobody said anything less than 13.2 was a bad battery. all i said was maximum full charged voltage of a lead acid battery is 2.2. volrs per cell. when surface charge has been drained it will be no more than 2.2 volts per cell. vs your 14.3 which is 2.38 volts per cell. a battery coming off charge at 12.8 as reported by the op is fully charged. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on mon 13 mar 2006 003227 -0800 ted mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com wrote auto zone and most battery retailers use a transconductance tester such as a midtronics tester to test batteries. most battery suppliers require the battery to be tested on one before replacement. it can test a battery that is 3/4 discharged accurately. if a midtronics tester says the battery is shot its shot. if it says its good 99.9% of the time its good. the only exception is an intermittent intercel connector which may test perfectly good once and read 100% dead even with a voltmeter the next. ive seen that happen only once. unfortunately those testers also miss batteries that have a high rate of self-discharge for some reason or another. my wife had one of these once a sears diehard. i could disconnect the negative battery lead and 2 days later the battery couldnt start the car. sears refused to replace it under warranty. that was the last diehard i ever bought. ted a diehard isnt a battery to start with - its a poor warranty attatched to a plastic box of lead and acid. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : neil

not sure if i did this correctly but i didnt see any drop. i placed the black lead on the negative battery post and touched the red lead to a clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car. i set the vm to 20v and turned the key a little and then turned the heater on full and the headlights on. no change. vm read zero. i then did the same with the vm set to 2000 mv and 200 mv. again vm read zero both times. i would suggest you connect the voltmeter to the battery negative post and a clean bright ground on the body and turn on the headlights and heater fan. you will likely have to set the voltmeter to 2vdc to get an accurate reading but start on a range above 12 volts to be safe. i suspect you will read over 1 volt drop in which case you need to repair the body ground. .

From : ken weitzel

clare wrote on mon 13 mar 2006 023520 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote maybe you dont know the meaning of or but to refresh your memory or means that you can either do the thing before the or or the thing after the or. no order is implied. so the above is suggesting that you can either perform a test or you can replace the battery without having tested it. youve been defied. any comment - yeah based on you knowledgable types thinking the battery should have 2.2v per cell anything less than 13.2 indicates a bad battery. so yeah using your vast knowledge i was stupid to suggest a second test of the battery. he should have just replaced it. max nobody said anything less than 13.2 was a bad battery. all i said was maximum full charged voltage of a lead acid battery is 2.2. volrs per cell. when surface charge has been drained it will be no more than 2.2 volts per cell. vs your 14.3 which is 2.38 volts per cell. a battery coming off charge at 12.8 as reported by the op is fully hi clare... with all due respect a fully charged lead acid cell will read a tiny smidgeon over 2 volts... if i recall correctly 2.04v for a total of 12.24 volts anything over that is surface. they dont call em 12 volt batteries for nothing take care. ken .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on mon 13 mar 2006 012356 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote a regulator cannot force an alternator to put out full regulated voltage if the alternator is not turning fast enough - often the case at idle on vehicles with typical loads turned on. false. voltage will be at whatever the vr sets it to be regardless of rpm. current on the other hand may vary due to load and rpm. want proof go outside fire up your vehicle attach a good multimeter wait till voltage stabilizes then turn on all the lights and radio etc. watch the meter. voltage will not change assuming the alernator is turning. rev it up still wont change. wanna make it real simple most cars have a voltmeter on the dash watch it to see if it goes up and down. if it does replace the vr. if not its working properly. got a friend with a cummins ram watch it while the grid cycles. revving the engine does not stop the voltage from dropping with the load. youve got the two backwards. anyone whose driven a 60s-70s mopar with the ammeter knows this. and i repeat you wont see much difference on the ammeter either. ok i just went out to my 350000km 1984 pontiac transsport van closest i have to a 93 caravan with a 540 cranking amp interstate megatron battery about 9 months old and an alternator and regulator about 3 years old. i tested with a cheap digital vom a 400 watt coleman inverter and a thinkpad 770 laptop the adapter for wich says input 100-240 vac 1.0 amp. after sitting for 3 hours battery voltage measured at the battery and at each outlet was 12.18 volts. i started the van and let it run at idle with low beams and heater fan on and voltage was 13.2 at 3000 rpm voltage rose to13.98 and dropped to 13.8 when i stepped on the brake. at 4000 rpm it reached 14.02 volts. returning to idle voltage sat at 13.92 with loads on 13.4 and with brake depressed 13.19 in gear 13.10 i shut down for 1 minute and voltage read 13.0. i turned low beam headlights on for 1 minute and voltage sagged to 12.2. when i turned the lights off and waited a minute voltage recovered to 12.62 i then got the inverter and laptop and plugged them in. my open circuit voltage was12.47 volts with the interior light on door open and with the inverter plugged in and turned on it dropped to 12.38 volts. i turned on the computer and voltage dropped to 12.9 - after 3 minutes it was 11.9 and battery terminal voltage was 12.29 plugged into the rear plug inverter power outlet voltage was 11.75. so on my trans sport i have a 0.39 volt drop in my front outlet circuit and a .54 volt drop in my rear plug circuit. this is a 12 year old gm vehicle with over 300000 hard km on it so in all likelihood has more voltage drop than it left the factory with. it is definitely more than i would prefer to see - i know the inflator compressor runs significantly slower from the rear plug than from the front. the front plug is fused at 20 amps and according to the owners manual the rear plug runs on the same fuse. if the adapter takes 1 amp at 120 volts the inverter draws a minimum of 10 amps to supply the adapter. it the adapter likely draws less than 1 amp from the 110 volt plug. if it draws 1 amp the rear circuit has a .54/10.054 ohm resistance and the front has a .39/10 0.039 ohm resistance. resistance of a 20 amp ato fuse in the panel is roughly .0025 ohms. a good fuse connection adds about the same resistance for a total of ..005 ohms which means .05 volt drop in the fuse panel a fuse holder can introduce 30mv drop per connection to a 20 amp circuit according to several auto sound sites which quoted littlefuse re ato fuses and this checks out with the previous estimate pretty closely. this was cited in explaining fuse blow times. my rule of thumb has always been a properly designed circuit should not drop more than 0.10 volts in a 12 volt system so my old pontiac is shedding 4 times as much in the front circuit and 5 times as much in the rear circuit as i would like to see. likely due in part to some pretty scabby connections at both body ground and the booster post as well as some corrosion in the 12 year old battery cables themselves. 60 mv drop at 20 amps is .006 ohms or .003 per connection *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on mon 13 mar 2006 020534 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote that is a cluelss service manager. ive had batteries last less than 3 years and 40000 miles and ive had batteries last 9 years and over 100000 miles. you simply cant judge battery condition by age or mileage alone. really so would you test the battery first or simply assume it was ok and not know if your diagnostics were properly indicating the problem seems like a lot of you experts would skip the battery test and move directly to measuring voltage at the power port to compare it to....... oh... thats right you didnt check the battery....so you wont know if the wiring is the problem.... or if the draw by the device is the problem..... or if some protective circuitry is working.... you do not need to test the battery -- all you need to do is check the voltage of the battery which is the voltage at the power plug with no load and check the battery voltage at the battery with the circuit under the test load - which in this case is the inverter/adapter. this allows you to calculate voltage drop. or you can just measure the voltage drop directly and the battery voltage itself doesnt mean a thing as long as the load voltage is within a few volts of spec. see actual voltage measurements posted my me a few minutes ago. *** f

From : clare at snyder on ca

*** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** . 222 314443 s4nb121iudg8067ffqjams26ilv8domef2@4ax.com on mon 13 mar 2006 112033 gmt matt whiting whiting@epix.net wrote max dodge wrote no i would check the voltage at the power outlet first. then i would check the battery and other components as necessary. since he said he had already had the battery voltage tested and gave the value which is well withing spec for a good battery i didnt see a need to check the battery a second time. given that the battery is 3 years old and a factory battery and that it read 12.6 just after being in a charge cycle and that 2.2v per cell is .6 more volts than were found confirmation of battery condition is well within reason. second since the test of the port was not within moments of the battery voltage test the battery will need to be retested at the same time testing of the port is done so an accurate comparison may be done. except that 2.2v per cell isnt correct. actually what was posted - 2.2.volts per cell maximum is correct. actual voltage varies according to acid density which varries from place to place around the world and from battery application to battery application. in warm climates battery sg is lower and therefore battery terminal voltage is lower to reduce self discharge. average north american battery terminal voltage is 2.1 per cell for 12.6 volts. i have some batteries that will never go above 12.13 volts 2.02 volts per cell that work perfectly agm batteries. anything over 12.45 volts open circuit is considered to be a fully charged battery. it isnt like the voltage on a car bus is an unknown quantity. if it isnt within spitting distance of 12v then something is amiss. now if you told me that the voltage of my power source was unknown then id probably check that first but in a car the bus voltage specification is known. the voltage at the outlet is either in spec or it isnt. i dont need to check the battery first to determine if the voltage at the power outlet is correct. typical reply of someone who doesnt take into account ambient temp rest time of battery charge cycle voltage age of the battery condition of the battery and quality of construction of the battery. testing battery voltage inorder to compare it to the port voltage is essential. proper training says do it first but when only two things need to be tested doing it second will suffice.... but it must be done. typical answer of someone advocating expensive tests before inexpensive tests. you must run a garage. if the power outlet tests 12.6v or higher open circuit and 11v or greater under load at the outlet why do you need to test the battery why must the battery be tested id be testing the inverter at that point... matt *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : daniel j stern

on mon 13 mar 2006 neil wrote not sure if i did this correctly but i didnt see any drop. i placed the black lead on the negative battery post and touched the red lead to a clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car. that would be correct procedure if the clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car happened to be the location where the power outlet gets its ground. otherwise no. .

From : neil

how would i determine where the power outlet gets its ground on mon 13 mar 2006 neil wrote not sure if i did this correctly but i didnt see any drop. i placed the black lead on the negative battery post and touched the red lead to a clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car. that would be correct procedure if the clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car happened to be the location where the power outlet gets its ground. otherwise no. .

From : tbone

scroll down dipshit. you quoted the results of the load test. 628 cca. im pretty sure thats enough to power his little charger. um nope. thats the amperage available from the battery not load test dipshit. a load test will show voltage drop over a short period of time when a resistance is applied. the very simple test i have in mind wont show amperage rating of a battery dipshit. as to if itll power anything well i wouldnt have any less than 750 if i were driving accessories like that and id prefer 1000. why because of the exact situation we have here. i would hold off on the dipshit comments if i were you. please show me one battery that is rated for 628 cca dont worry ill wait. a modern load tester can estimate the actual cca of the battery it is testing. it is probably a 700 cca battery that is now down to 628 cca from age and wear but is still more than capable of operating his inverter for hours. as for you 1000 cca comment all that does is clearly demonstrate that you dont know wtf you are talking about because no matter how high the cca is it will have no effect on a voltage drop due to wiring. the pcm will vary charge rate according to battery conditions temp etc. system voltage wouldnt necessarily be over 14v. immediately after charging a battery should read more than 12.8 volts. says who on a 3 year old battery what he needs is a voltage drop test on that rear power outlet circuit. no kidding maybe thats why i suggested checking the voltage at the port and acting accordingly. yea after your other bullshit and what exactly do you mean by acting accordingly especially when speaking to an obvious electrical novice -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

lol unless he has a shorted cell the voltage while running is dependent on the regulator not the battery. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. rubbish. with alt charging the system should show over 14v. second as yet no one has shown results of a load test which is the only way to find out how it works under a load. funny how that works...... -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author on sat 11 mar 2006 234831 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote some more notes regarding this. with engine off i plug in the power inverter with nothing connected to inverter. get low voltage alarm 11.5v but inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop charger not connected to laptop and lights in laptop charger come on and inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop in need of charge but with laptop itself turned off to laptop charger. laptop lights show its charging and inverter stays on. i then unplug the laptop from charger while still in need of charge and turn it on. after laptop is booted i plug laptop back into charger. get a long alarm 5 seconds from inverter and it turns itself off indicating that voltage is 10.5v. thus it seems that even without a load except for the inverter its getting 11.5v. and its able to handle a small load but not the load with the laptop on. but again its only a 90w charger. and also again didnt have a problem with past two cars i had. regarding the battery itself there are my notes from the autozone battery test. 628 cold cranking amps 12.8v with alternator off 13.82 with alternator on thanks for any input. your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. your 90 watt inverter is ok. your laptop charger is ok. your laptop is ok. the wires to the back power outlet are too light for the length. get an automotive electrician to run a secondheavier wire from the fuse box back to the outlet. connect it in parallel with the original from a s close to the fuse as possible to as close to the plug as possible. cost less than a new battery and actually solve the problem. neil i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for the power inverter and for the laptop charger are below. thanks for any input! neil power inverter specs capacity 140w input voltage 12vdc dc input voltage range 10.5 - 15.8vdc output voltage nominal 120vac 5% dc voltage 12vdc cigarette jack frequency 60 hz 3% continuous output power 140w peak output power 270w laptop charger specs power provided 90 w product type power adapter type ac adapter voltage required 100 to 240 vac max output current 4.5 a max. at 4-second pulse 3.5 a continuous *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : max dodge

typical answer of someone advocating expensive tests before inexpensive tests. you must run a garage. a load test on a battery is a five minute if that job and may be done for free if the garage owner is a decent sort. real expensive... not. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote no i would check the voltage at the power outlet first. then i would check the battery and other components as necessary. since he said he had already had the battery voltage tested and gave the value which is well withing spec for a good battery i didnt see a need to check the battery a second time. given that the battery is 3 years old and a factory battery and that it read 12.6 just after being in a charge cycle and that 2.2v per cell is .6 more volts than were found confirmation of battery condition is well within reason. second since the test of the port was not within moments of the battery voltage test the battery will need to be retested at the same time testing of the port is done so an accurate comparison may be done. except that 2.2v per cell isnt correct. it isnt like the voltage on a car bus is an unknown quantity. if it isnt within spitting distance of 12v then something is amiss. now if you told me that the voltage of my power source was unknown then id probably check that first but in a car the bus voltage specification is known. the voltage at the outlet is either in spec or it isnt. i dont need to check the battery first to determine if the voltage at the power outlet is correct. typical reply of someone who doesnt take into account ambient temp rest time of battery charge cycle voltage age of the battery condition of the battery and quality of construction of the battery. testing battery voltage inorder to compare it to the port voltage is essential. proper training says do it first but when only two things need to be tested doing it second will suffice.... but it must be done. typical answer of someone advocating expensive tests before inexpensive tests. you must run a garage. if the power outlet tests 12.6v or higher open circuit and 11v or greater under load at the outlet why do you need to test the battery why must the battery be tested id be testing the inverter at that point... matt .

From : max dodge

not sure if i did this correctly but i didnt see any drop. i placed the black lead on the negative battery post and touched the red lead to a clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car. that would be correct procedure if the clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car happened to be the location where the power outlet gets its ground. otherwise no. read again dan..... black on negative post and red on clean body metal will get you a zero reading everytime on a negative ground system. this would put the meter in parallel with the ground cable from the battery. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author on mon 13 mar 2006 neil wrote not sure if i did this correctly but i didnt see any drop. i placed the black lead on the negative battery post and touched the red lead to a clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car. that would be correct procedure if the clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car happened to be the location where the power outlet gets its ground. otherwise no. .

From : tbone

not sure if i did this correctly but i didnt see any drop. i placed the black lead on the negative battery post and touched the red lead to a clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car. that would be correct procedure if the clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car happened to be the location where the power outlet gets its ground. otherwise no. read again dan..... black on negative post and red on clean body metal will get you a zero reading everytime on a negative ground system. not if the body ground was bad where the socket gets its ground and that is what this test is looking for. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

max dodge wrote revving the engine will do nothing to increase alternator output voltage; amperage maybe a little. either way its not a load test. but it does show how accurate and knowledgable the people at your particular autozone are. sure it will. nope. why a silly little thing known as a voltage regulator. been on vehicles for over half a century now. yep and do you know how they work they dont hold voltage exactly. amperage on the other hand may be increased slightly if you rev the engine but it depends on the system and how much draw there is. how does the amperage vary if you hold the voltage constant you dont actually expect an answer from this do you -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : matt whiting

tbone wrote reaching into the socket as you suggest would be pointless as with no load their will always be battery voltage if the socket is powered. the drop comes from current draw which will only happen if the load is connected and then there is no reaching into the socket. you could tag the connectors to the socket but that is probably more of a pita then they are willing to do for free. never say always. if a wire is broken there may well be zero voltage. however your point is generally correct that you need some load much more than a high impedance dvm provides to really see what is going on. that is why many folks have suggested testing the voltage under load. matt .

From : max dodge

ted comparing two different dc systems that rely on battery power is less than informative. sure itll show him what the other truck is doing but it wont have the power inverter. fact is most of these guys have assumed hte problem is not the truck but the port itself somehow. first fact that i picked up was with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. this tells me the device is not the problem. next he says the device exhibits a specific event and why that event occurs however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. he then qualifies this event by defining conditions under which the event occurs when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. this infomation combines and tells me that the system voltage drops below 10.5v at the power port. we know the device functioned fine in other cars. we know it works well while the engine is running. we know it functions as though a drop in voltage has occurred while the engine is not running. we know from all this that the port in question probably isnt supplying enough voltage. as such another vehicle isnt going to exhibit the same events unless the same device is plugged into it. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. we know from this that the battery is a bit on the low side for having just been charging. we know from general information that the charging system runs at about 13.5-14.5 volts. the op does not mention any dtcs which would indicate low or high voltages in the system while running. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. we know from this that the battery is original and thus is three years old an average lifetime for a factory installed battery. his mechanic agrees with that statement. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. the op is reasonably correct here although batteries do work well until you replace them and find that a new battery does so much better. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for the power inverter and for the laptop charger are below. the op clearly has not ruled out the battery. so ill again state the obvious 1 load test the battery to see if it will hold voltage above 10.5v while under load. if no replace battery. if yes go to step 2 2 test battery voltage with a vm while battery is at rest. 3 immediately test port voltage with a vm as comparison. 4 get in the device and use the port it has as a pass through saw that somewhere in this mess and while plugging it in monitor voltage at the port. that will show the problem without a doubt. there are those that will argue to do it differently but the known facts indicate a battery problem or a port voltage problem. to fix the battery you replace it at a cost of $60 or so. to fix the port should all else be confirmed good will cost $60 an hour to rewire the port with larger guage wire. all that testing above costs about $25 for the vm and takes about ten minutes. iow far less time than listening to these idiots play games with how much testing and diagnosis cost and how much should be done to achieve a solution. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author both of which need to be tested using a known good battery. wow ive said this several times now and all you engineers refuse to believe that knowing your baseline voltage is essential to finding a drop in the wiring. max and others! doesent anyone who is posting to this thread have a 2003 caravan that they could spend a few minutes with a dvm to make some measurements with to give the op something for comparisons sake ted .

From : max dodge

lol unless he has a shorted cell the voltage while running is dependent on the regulator not the battery. very true. however if you read the op the problem is while the engine is not running. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author lol unless he has a shorted cell the voltage while running is dependent on the regulator not the battery. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. rubbish. with alt charging the system should show over 14v. second as yet no one has shown results of a load test which is the only way to find out how it works under a load. funny how that works...... -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author on sat 11 mar 2006 234831 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote some more notes regarding this. with engine off i plug in the power inverter with nothing connected to inverter. get low voltage alarm 11.5v but inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop charger not connected to laptop and lights in laptop charger come on and inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop in need of charge but with laptop itself turned off to laptop charger. laptop lights show its charging and inverter stays on. i then unplug the laptop from charger while still in need of charge and turn it on. after laptop is booted i plug laptop back into charger. get a long alarm 5 seconds from inverter and it turns itself off indicating that voltage is 10.5v. thus it seems that even without a load except for the inverter its getting 11.5v. and its able to handle a small load but not the load with the laptop on. but again its only a 90w charger. and also again didnt have a problem with past two cars i had. regarding the battery itself there are my notes from the autozone battery test. 628 cold cranking amps 12.8v with alternator off 13.82 with alternator on thanks for any input. your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. your 90 watt inverter is ok. your laptop charger is ok. your laptop is ok. the wires to the back power outlet are too light for the length. get an automotive electrician to run a secondheavier wire from the fuse box back to the outlet. connect it in parallel with the original from a s close to the fuse as possible to as close to the plug as possible. cost less than a new battery and actually solve the problem. neil i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for the power inverter and for the laptop charger are below. thanks for any input! neil power inverter specs capacity 140w input voltage 12vdc dc input voltage range 10.5 - 15.8vdc output voltage nominal 120vac 5% dc voltage 12vdc cigarette jack frequency 60 hz 3% continuous output power 140w peak output power 270w laptop charger specs power provided 90 w product type power adapter type ac adapter voltage required 100 to 240 vac max output current 4.5 a max. at 4-second pulse 3.5 a continuous *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : neil

ok i stopped at the auto parts store and asked the guy where a ground would be. he suggested the metal that the alternator is attached to. i tested it with your test and got 12.9v so thats a good ground doing the test you suggested earlier i placed the black on the negative post and the red on the ground and turned on the heater full blast and turned on the lights. with the vm on the 2000 mv setting it read 007. on mon 13 mar 2006 194344 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote not sure if i did this correctly but i didnt see any drop. i placed the black lead on the negative battery post and touched the red lead to a clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car. i set the vm to 20v and turned the key a little and then turned the heater on full and the headlights on. no change. vm read zero. to find out if the shiny metal was a good ground connect the red to the positive post and the black to the shiny metal. you should have 12 volts. i then did the same with the vm set to 2000 mv and 200 mv. again vm read zero both times. i would suggest you connect the voltmeter to the battery negative post and a clean bright ground on the body and turn on the headlights and heater fan. you will likely have to set the voltmeter to 2vdc to get an accurate reading but start on a range above 12 volts to be safe. i suspect you will read over 1 volt drop in which case you need to repair the body ground. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : neil

i dunno. i tried another ground -- some metal in the engine block and using that test it only showed 6v. even a bad ground will show 12 volts if there is any connection at all with no load on it. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving on mon 13 mar 2006 194344 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote not sure if i did this correctly but i didnt see any drop. i placed the black lead on the negative battery post and touched the red lead to a clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car. i set the vm to 20v and turned the key a little and then turned the heater on full and the headlights on. no change. vm read zero. to find out if the shiny metal was a good ground connect the red to the positive post and the black to the shiny metal. you should have 12 volts. i then did the same with the vm set to 2000 mv and 200 mv. again vm read zero both times. i would suggest you connect the voltmeter to the battery negative post and a clean bright ground on the body and turn on the headlights and heater fan. you will likely have to set the voltmeter to 2vdc to get an accurate reading but start on a range above 12 volts to be safe. i suspect you will read over 1 volt drop in which case you need to repair the body ground. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on mon 13 mar 2006 194344 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote not sure if i did this correctly but i didnt see any drop. i placed the black lead on the negative battery post and touched the red lead to a clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car. i set the vm to 20v and turned the key a little and then turned the heater on full and the headlights on. no change. vm read zero. to find out if the shiny metal was a good ground connect the red to the positive post and the black to the shiny metal. you should have 12 volts. i then did the same with the vm set to 2000 mv and 200 mv. again vm read zero both times. i would suggest you connect the voltmeter to the battery negative post and a clean bright ground on the body and turn on the headlights and heater fan. you will likely have to set the voltmeter to 2vdc to get an accurate reading but start on a range above 12 volts to be safe. i suspect you will read over 1 volt drop in which case you need to repair the body ground. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : bill putney

matt whiting wrote max dodge wrote no max - it is 99.9% sure not a battery problem. it is a wiring problem. without knowing battery voltage you have no idea. he said the battery voltage has been checked and was 12.8v. hey matt - do you get the idea that we are in the proverbial mud wrestling contest with the proverbial pig not calling you a pig max - its just a figure of speech. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : tbone

max dodge wrote during the test the person had me rev the engine to over 1500 rpms. not sure if thats the load test youre referring to or if its something else. lol thats funny... really. revving the engine will do nothing to increase alternator output voltage; amperage maybe a little. either way its not a load test. but it does show how accurate and knowledgable the people at your particular autozone are. sure it will. keep digging boy ever heard of a voltage regulator lol ever here of the load exceeding the output of the device especially at idle. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : bill putney

ted mittelstaedt wrote dont forget you need a different voltmeter to read ac and a different one to read dc... dont laugh someone somewhere would buy them. ted the ac meter would come in handy on those a.c. batteries. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : tbone

i did read the op and the 1000 or so posts after it. you were the one that made the claim that the charging voltage needed to be over 14v and indicated that if not the battery was bad. this is simply not always true. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving lol unless he has a shorted cell the voltage while running is dependent on the regulator not the battery. very true. however if you read the op the problem is while the engine is not running. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author lol unless he has a shorted cell the voltage while running is dependent on the regulator not the battery. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. rubbish. with alt charging the system should show over 14v. second as yet no one has shown results of a load test which is the only way to find out how it works under a load. funny how that works...... -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author on sat 11 mar 2006 234831 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote some more notes regarding this. with engine off i plug in the power inverter with nothing connected to inverter. get low voltage alarm 11.5v but inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop charger not connected to laptop and lights in laptop charger come on and inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop in need of charge but with laptop itself turned off to laptop charger. laptop lights show its charging and inverter stays on. i then unplug the laptop from charger while still in need of charge and turn it on. after laptop is booted i plug laptop back into charger. get a long alarm 5 seconds from inverter and it turns itself off indicating that voltage is 10.5v. thus it seems that even without a load except for the inverter its getting 11.5v. and its able to handle a small load but not the load with the laptop on. but again its only a 90w charger. and also again didnt have a problem with past two cars i had. regarding the battery itself there are my notes from the autozone battery test. 628 cold cranking amps 12.8v with alternator off 13.82 with alternator on thanks for any input. your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. your 90 watt inverter is ok. your laptop charger is ok. your laptop is ok. the wires to the back power outlet are too light for the length. get an automotive electrician to run a secondheavier wire from the fuse box back to the outlet. connect it in parallel with the original from a s close to the fuse as possible to as close to the plug as possible. cost less than a new battery and actually solve the problem. neil i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for the power inverter and for the laptop charger are below. thanks for any input! neil power inverter specs capacity 140w input voltage 12vdc dc input voltage range 10.5 - 15.8vdc output voltage nominal 120vac 5% dc voltage 12vdc cigarette jack frequency 60 hz 3% continuous output power 140w peak output power 270w laptop charger specs power provided 90 w product type power adapter type ac adapter voltage required 100 to 240 vac max output current 4.5 a max. at 4-second pulse 3.5 a continuous *** free account spons

From : bill putney

neil wrote by jump post i assume you dont mean the battery post. if not then im not sure what youre referring to. i dont know if the van has this same jump post but you might check into that or other joints in the power cables. in the lh cars the battery is buried behind a fender so they bring the positive cables up to an accessible point beside the engine for jumping it off or measuring battery voltage without jacking the car up and removing the fender liner. with the excpetion of the power cable between the battery and alternator *all* vehicle power goes thru that jump post which consists of a threaded stud 3 cables and two nuts to clamp the cables on the stud. i was thinking that the minivans may have a similar jump post - but am not familiar with the minivans so am not sure. on the lh car there also is a negative jump post which is also a main ground point for the vehicle - it would also be a good idea to check the single ground lug bolt to be sure it is tight. a given vehicle would either have both or neither. again - not sure about the minivans. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : tbone

even a bad ground will show 12 volts if there is any connection at all with no load on it. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving on mon 13 mar 2006 194344 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote not sure if i did this correctly but i didnt see any drop. i placed the black lead on the negative battery post and touched the red lead to a clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car. i set the vm to 20v and turned the key a little and then turned the heater on full and the headlights on. no change. vm read zero. to find out if the shiny metal was a good ground connect the red to the positive post and the black to the shiny metal. you should have 12 volts. i then did the same with the vm set to 2000 mv and 200 mv. again vm read zero both times. i would suggest you connect the voltmeter to the battery negative post and a clean bright ground on the body and turn on the headlights and heater fan. you will likely have to set the voltmeter to 2vdc to get an accurate reading but start on a range above 12 volts to be safe. i suspect you will read over 1 volt drop in which case you need to repair the body ground. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : tbone

then there wouldnt be any connection at all would there -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving tbone wrote even a bad ground will show 12 volts if there is any connection at all with no load on it. are you sure what if the ground is disconnected completely matt .

From : bill putney

steve wrote great crap all this thread about a stinking auxiliary power outlet... whats amazing is that the op neil has managed to separate the clutter from the good information. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : bill putney

tbone wrote lol! then i guess that there is no need putting that fan belt on the alternator since it can now apparently give full voltage at 0 rpms. i already covered that mr. t - see my previous post. i called it a perpetual motion machine. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : matt whiting

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote on mon 13 mar 2006 012356 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote a regulator cannot force an alternator to put out full regulated voltage if the alternator is not turning fast enough - often the case at idle on vehicles with typical loads turned on. false. voltage will be at whatever the vr sets it to be regardless of rpm. current on the other hand may vary due to load and rpm. want proof go outside fire up your vehicle attach a good multimeter wait till voltage stabilizes then turn on all the lights and radio etc. watch the meter. voltage will not change assuming the alernator is turning. rev it up still wont change. wanna make it real simple most cars have a voltmeter on the dash watch it to see if it goes up and down. if it does replace the vr. if not its working properly. got a friend with a cummins ram watch it while the grid cycles. revving the engine does not stop the voltage from dropping with the load. youve got the two backwards. anyone whose driven a 60s-70s mopar with the ammeter knows this. and i repeat you wont see much difference on the ammeter either. ok i just went out to my 350000km 1984 pontiac transsport van closest i have to a 93 caravan with a 540 cranking amp interstate megatron battery about 9 months old and an alternator and regulator about 3 years old. i tested with a cheap digital vom a 400 watt coleman inverter and a thinkpad 770 laptop the adapter for wich says input 100-240 vac 1.0 amp. after sitting for 3 hours battery voltage measured at the battery and at each outlet was 12.18 volts. i started the van and let it run at idle with low beams and heater fan on and voltage was 13.2 at 3000 rpm voltage rose to13.98 and dropped to 13.8 when i stepped on the brake. at 4000 rpm it reached 14.02 volts. returning to idle voltage sat at 13.92 with loads on 13.4 and with brake depressed 13.19 in gear 13.10 thats impossible! it has been stated here that a voltage regulator and alternator system wont let the voltage vary at all with rpm. how can this be - hopefully you can detect the sarcasm here... matt .

From : matt whiting

bill putney wrote matt whiting wrote max dodge wrote no max - it is 99.9% sure not a battery problem. it is a wiring problem. without knowing battery voltage you have no idea. he said the battery voltage has been checked and was 12.8v. hey matt - do you get the idea that we are in the proverbial mud wrestling contest with the proverbial pig not calling you a pig max - its just a figure of speech. yes. - matt .

From : tbone

-- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving a regulator cannot force an alternator to put out full regulated voltage if the alternator is not turning fast enough - often the case at idle on vehicles with typical loads turned on. false. voltage will be at whatever the vr sets it to be regardless of rpm. current on the other hand may vary due to load and rpm. want proof go outside fire up your vehicle attach a good multimeter wait till voltage stabilizes then turn on all the lights and radio etc. watch the meter. voltage will not change assuming the alernator is turning. rev it up still wont change. lol! then i guess that there is no need putting that fan belt on the alternator since it can now apparently give full voltage at 0 rpms. the real deal is that the voltage will not change much until the alternator is at its wide open non-regulated point. then the voltage is gonna drop unless you speed it up. granted the alternators of today are very powerful and can handle most loads at or near idle but that is not always the case. wanna make it real simple most cars have a voltmeter on the dash watch it to see if it goes up and down. if it does replace the vr. if not its working properly. or its one of those bogus gauges that doesnt really measure anything. all this really proves is that the alternators of today can handle normal loads at idle speeds not that the voltage never changes. got a friend with a cummins ram watch it while the grid cycles. revving the engine does not stop the voltage from dropping with the load. yea because the wiring cannot handle the current being drawn by the grid and is causing a voltage drop. but hey wait didnt you just say that the voltage never drops and only the current is effected!!!! i guess that you just proved yourself wrong. youve got the two backwards. anyone whose driven a 60s-70s mopar with the ammeter knows this. and i repeat you wont see much difference on the ammeter either. that is because most of them didnt work worth a damn. you could definitely see the voltage move on those old mopars. my 65 darts would be all over the place voltage wise at idle with anything on at all. the current meter showed nothing unless i just started it then it would move but it was not the most accurate thing on the planet. if i turned everything on with the engine not running then it would more slightly to the discharge side. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

tbone wrote reaching into the socket as you suggest would be pointless as with no load their will always be battery voltage if the socket is powered. the drop comes from current draw which will only happen if the load is connected and then there is no reaching into the socket. you could tag the connectors to the socket but that is probably more of a pita then they are willing to do for free. never say always. if a wire is broken there may well be zero voltage. i guess you missed the part where i said if the socket is powered. if a wire was broken then the socket would not be powered. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : matt whiting

tbone wrote tbone wrote reaching into the socket as you suggest would be pointless as with no load their will always be battery voltage if the socket is powered. the drop comes from current draw which will only happen if the load is connected and then there is no reaching into the socket. you could tag the connectors to the socket but that is probably more of a pita then they are willing to do for free. never say always. if a wire is broken there may well be zero voltage. i guess you missed the part where i said if the socket is powered. if a wire was broken then the socket would not be powered. it would if the broken wire was the ground wire. - matt .

From : neil

its pretty easy you just ignore people who rant or curse or berate and you end up with some good information. - steve wrote great crap all this thread about a stinking auxiliary power outlet... whats amazing is that the op neil has managed to separate the clutter from the good information. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : bill putney

max dodge wrote lol unless he has a shorted cell the voltage while running is dependent on the regulator not the battery. very true. however if you read the op the problem is while the engine is not running. youre cherry-picking your information again and understandably coming up with wrong conclusions. the observed problem is occurring both *with* *engine* *running* and with engine not running. neil posted this **rear power outlet engine on ---------------------------------- **outlet alone 13.5 **with inverter alone 13.4 **with charger alone in inverter 13.3 **with laptop plugged in off and charging 12.0 **with laptop plugged in on and charging inverter turned off while certainly if the inverter turned itself off with engine running and alternator over-riding anything you could say about the battery it absloutely would turn off with the engine off - which he *of* *course* also found to be the case. what is the common thread of low voltage *both* with engine running and with engine not running it is not the battery because as has been said excluding a shorted cell or two it is *not* *in* *the* *picture* *when* *the* *engine* *is* *running*. the most likely common threads are a bad ground or voltage drop in the wiring. to repeat the battery is not a factor with the engine running since the alternator will force the regulating voltage in spite of a weak non-shorted battery. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : bill putney

neil wrote how would i determine where the power outlet gets its ground on mon 13 mar 2006 neil wrote not sure if i did this correctly but i didnt see any drop. i placed the black lead on the negative battery post and touched the red lead to a clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car. that would be correct procedure if the clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car happened to be the location where the power outlet gets its ground. otherwise no. neil - daniels point was that to really know whats going on *at* *the* *port* where the inverter gets its ground and power you need to put the two meter leads on the two voltage points i.e. 12v and ground *in* *the* *port*. by putting one lead of the meter on chassis ground i.e. not the groung terminal inside the port you are not getting an accurate reading of what the inverter is seeing *at* *the* *port*. iow different ground points in the vehicle will not read the exact same voltage - especially if there is a bad ground connection which has already been alluded to may be a contributing factor in your problem. to reiterate when daniel said that would be correct procedure if the clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car happened to be the location where the power outlet gets its ground in a round-about way he was saying with the one lead on the shell of the port for positive voltage put the other meter lead on the center terminal inside the port for the ground because not all grounds are at the same voltage - theoretically yes - in reality no. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : neil

. 222 314488 yzorf.3195$x94.5@read1..pas.earthlink.net ok i can try that. but i was actually responding to clares post i would suggest you connect the voltmeter to the battery negative post and a clean bright ground on the body and turn on the headlights and heater fan. you will likely have to set the voltmeter to 2vdc to get an accurate reading but start on a range above 12 volts to be safe. i suspect you will read over 1 volt drop in which case you need to repair the body ground. neil wrote how would i determine where the power outlet gets its ground on mon 13 mar 2006 neil wrote not sure if i did this correctly but i didnt see any drop. i placed the black lead on the negative battery post and touched the red lead to a clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car. that would be correct procedure if the clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car happened to be the location where the power outlet gets its ground. otherwise no. neil - daniels point was that to really know whats going on *at* *the* *port* where the inverter gets its ground and power you need to put the two meter leads on the two voltage points i.e. 12v and ground *in* *the* *port*. by putting one lead of the meter on chassis ground i.e. not the groung terminal inside the port you are not getting an accurate reading of what the inverter is seeing *at* *the* *port*. iow different ground points in the vehicle will not read the exact same voltage - especially if there is a bad ground connection which has already been alluded to may be a contributing factor in your problem. to reiterate when daniel said that would be correct procedure if the clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car happened to be the location where the power outlet gets its ground in a round-about way he was saying with the one lead on the shell of the port for positive voltage put the other meter lead on the center terminal inside the port for the ground because not all grounds are at the same voltage - theoretically yes - in reality no. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : tbone

tbone wrote tbone wrote reaching into the socket as you suggest would be pointless as with no load their will always be battery voltage if the socket is powered. the drop comes from current draw which will only happen if the load is connected and then there is no reaching into the socket. you could tag the connectors to the socket but that is probably more of a pita then they are willing to do for free. never say always. if a wire is broken there may well be zero voltage. i guess you missed the part where i said if the socket is powered. if a wire was broken then the socket would not be powered. it would if the broken wire was the ground wire. - no it would not. it would have power but it would still not be powered. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on mon 13 mar 2006 194752 gmt ken weitzel kweitzel@shaw.ca wrote clare wrote on mon 13 mar 2006 023520 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote maybe you dont know the meaning of or but to refresh your memory or means that you can either do the thing before the or or the thing after the or. no order is implied. so the above is suggesting that you can either perform a test or you can replace the battery without having tested it. youve been defied. any comment - yeah based on you knowledgable types thinking the battery should have 2.2v per cell anything less than 13.2 indicates a bad battery. so yeah using your vast knowledge i was stupid to suggest a second test of the battery. he should have just replaced it. max nobody said anything less than 13.2 was a bad battery. all i said was maximum full charged voltage of a lead acid battery is 2.2. volrs per cell. when surface charge has been drained it will be no more than 2.2 volts per cell. vs your 14.3 which is 2.38 volts per cell. a battery coming off charge at 12.8 as reported by the op is fully hi clare... with all due respect a fully charged lead acid cell will read a tiny smidgeon over 2 volts... if i recall correctly 2.04v for a total of 12.24 volts anything over that is surface. they dont call em 12 volt batteries for nothing take care. ken with all due respect ive taught the trade and spent half my life in it. all texts ive got say 2.1 volts per cell and a bia battery industry association document i cant seem to find right now states up to 2.2. my experience has been that 2.1 is most common but as i stated i do have a couple agm batteries that are 2.01 and 2.075 was standard for tropical batteries when i was in africa. this is because they use lower density acid to slow down self discharge at high temperatures. state of charge specific gravity voltage volt/cell 12v 6v 100% 1.265 12.7 6.32.1 75% 1.22512.4 6.22.06 50%1.190 12.2 6.12.03 25% 1.155 12.0 6.0 2.0 discharged 1.120 11.9 6.0 this is with 37% h2s04 electrolyte. 12.70 is generally accepted to be the standard sg of battery acid at 20 degrees c in canada. it may be lower in the southern states. in africa 12.50 acid was standard in the seventies. you will notice that only yeilds about 80% charge. motorcycle batteries are generally 1.300 acid. heavilly cycled batteries like ev traction batteries generally also run higher sg acid with 1300 being relatively standard. ups batteries generally run about 1250 and power utility and telecom batteries when lead acid is used generally run 1215. lower acid concentration gives lower power but longer life and less self discharge generally there are also very small differences between the voltage of pure lead batteries and those doped with calcium or antimony the 2 most common doping agents there is a simple magic number of 0.845. well round it to .84. take the specific gravity of the acid and add 0.84 to it and you have the open circuit battery cell voltage. so - 1.270 acid yields 12.66 volts or 2.11 volts per cell. 1.300 acid is 12.84 volts or 2.14 per cell. 12.50 acid yields 12.5 + .842.09 volts per cell or 12.54 volts 1.360 acid would be 1.36 + .85= 2.2 volts per cell. i have never seen an authoratative source specify anything more than 1.36 for battery sg or more than 2.2 volts per cell. i only brought up the 2.2 volts per cell because max stated the open circuit voltage had to be over 13. whatever volts or the battery was no good. if you go back in the way-back machine i think you will find i stated maximum lead acid voltage is 2.2 volts per cell and i think i said 12.6 volts was normal battery open circuit voltage. that is the generally accepted number in the north american automotive industry. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : max dodge

hey matt - do you get the idea that we are in the proverbial mud wrestling contest with the proverbial pig not calling you a pig max - its just a figure of speech. yes. - might be because neither of you read the facts as presented by the op and neither of you know proper troubleshooting procedure. have a nice day. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author bill putney wrote matt whiting wrote max dodge wrote no max - it is 99.9% sure not a battery problem. it is a wiring problem. without knowing battery voltage you have no idea. he said the battery voltage has been checked and was 12.8v. hey matt - do you get the idea that we are in the proverbial mud wrestling contest with the proverbial pig not calling you a pig max - its just a figure of speech. yes. - matt .

From : matt whiting

max dodge wrote hey matt - do you get the idea that we are in the proverbial mud wrestling contest with the proverbial pig not calling you a pig max - its just a figure of speech. yes. - might be because neither of you read the facts as presented by the op and neither of you know proper troubleshooting procedure. hey bill its confirmed! matt .

From : max dodge

i did read the op and the 1000 or so posts after it. you were the one that made the claim that the charging voltage needed to be over 14v and indicated that if not the battery was bad. this is simply not always true. especially when you claim i said it. never said that at all. learn to read. wait who am i kidding you might find facts if you did and that would fuck up your entire day. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author i did read the op and the 1000 or so posts after it. you were the one that made the claim that the charging voltage needed to be over 14v and indicated that if not the battery was bad. this is simply not always true. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving lol unless he has a shorted cell the voltage while running is dependent on the regulator not the battery. very true. however if you read the op the problem is while the engine is not running. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author lol unless he has a shorted cell the voltage while running is dependent on the regulator not the battery. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. rubbish. with alt charging the system should show over 14v. second as yet no one has shown results of a load test which is the only way to find out how it works under a load. funny how that works...... -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author on sat 11 mar 2006 234831 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote some more notes regarding this. with engine off i plug in the power inverter with nothing connected to inverter. get low voltage alarm 11.5v but inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop charger not connected to laptop and lights in laptop charger come on and inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop in need of charge but with laptop itself turned off to laptop charger. laptop lights show its charging and inverter stays on. i then unplug the laptop from charger while still in need of charge and turn it on. after laptop is booted i plug laptop back into charger. get a long alarm 5 seconds from inverter and it turns itself off indicating that voltage is 10.5v. thus it seems that even without a load except for the inverter its getting 11.5v. and its able to handle a small load but not the load with the laptop on. but again its only a 90w charger. and also again didnt have a problem with past two cars i had. regarding the battery itself there are my notes from the autozone battery test. 628 cold cranking amps 12.8v with alternator off 13.82 with alternator on thanks for any input. your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. your 90 watt inverter is ok. your laptop charger is ok. your laptop is ok. the wires to the back power outlet are too light for the length. get an automotive electrician to run a secondheavier wire from the fuse box back to the outlet. connect it in parallel with the original from a s close to the fuse as possible to as close to the plug as possible. cost less than a new battery and actually solve the problem. neil i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the battery ill note that the car starts right up without any hesitation and it seems to me that if the battery was so low that it couldnt provide at least 10.5v that there would be some hesitation when the car was started. so while im not ruling out the battery situation i thought id ask here if anyone had any other ideas about what this might be. the specs for t

From : tbone

your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. rubbish. with alt charging the system should show over 14v. second as yet no one has shown results of a load test which is the only way to find out how it works under a load. funny how that works...... -- max care to try again -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving i did read the op and the 1000 or so posts after it. you were the one that made the claim that the charging voltage needed to be over 14v and indicated that if not the battery was bad. this is simply not always true. especially when you claim i said it. never said that at all. learn to read. wait who am i kidding you might find facts if you did and that would fuck up your entire day. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author i did read the op and the 1000 or so posts after it. you were the one that made the claim that the charging voltage needed to be over 14v and indicated that if not the battery was bad. this is simply not always true. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving lol unless he has a shorted cell the voltage while running is dependent on the regulator not the battery. very true. however if you read the op the problem is while the engine is not running. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author lol unless he has a shorted cell the voltage while running is dependent on the regulator not the battery. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. rubbish. with alt charging the system should show over 14v. second as yet no one has shown results of a load test which is the only way to find out how it works under a load. funny how that works...... -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author on sat 11 mar 2006 234831 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote some more notes regarding this. with engine off i plug in the power inverter with nothing connected to inverter. get low voltage alarm 11.5v but inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop charger not connected to laptop and lights in laptop charger come on and inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop in need of charge but with laptop itself turned off to laptop charger. laptop lights show its charging and inverter stays on. i then unplug the laptop from charger while still in need of charge and turn it on. after laptop is booted i plug laptop back into charger. get a long alarm 5 seconds from inverter and it turns itself off indicating that voltage is 10.5v. thus it seems that even without a load except for the inverter its getting 11.5v. and its able to handle a small load but not the load with the laptop on. but again its only a 90w charger. and also again didnt have a problem with past two cars i had. regarding the battery itself there are my notes from the autozone battery test. 628 cold cranking amps 12.8v with alternator off 13.82 with alternator on thanks for any input. your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. your 90 watt inverter is ok. your laptop charger is ok. your laptop is ok. the wires to the back power outlet are too light for the length. get an automotive electrician to run a secondheavier wire from the fuse box back to the outlet. connect it in parallel with the original from a s close to the fuse as possible to as close to the plug as possible. cost less than a new battery and actually solve the problem. neil i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. i went to autozone and had them test the battery and alternator. they said everything tested fine and the battery was at 12.8v. i then went to a dodge dealers service department and talked with a guy there. he said he thought it would be the battery as its the original manufacturer battery and has 45k miles on it. i told him about the autozone test and he said that that test isnt conclusive that i could have a bad cell in the battery and so forth. while its possible that its the

From : max dodge

not if the body ground was bad where the socket gets its ground and that is what this test is looking for. read it again... what he describes is a check for voltage between battery negative and negative ground..... which would read zero since the two are directly connected. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author not sure if i did this correctly but i didnt see any drop. i placed the black lead on the negative battery post and touched the red lead to a clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car. that would be correct procedure if the clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car happened to be the location where the power outlet gets its ground. otherwise no. read again dan..... black on negative post and red on clean body metal will get you a zero reading everytime on a negative ground system. not if the body ground was bad where the socket gets its ground and that is what this test is looking for. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : max dodge

no it would not. it would have power but it would still not be powered. ahahahaahahahah. and you say i dont know electricity........ jackass...... has power but isnt powered..... good one....... -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author tbone wrote tbone wrote reaching into the socket as you suggest would be pointless as with no load their will always be battery voltage if the socket is powered. the drop comes from current draw which will only happen if the load is connected and then there is no reaching into the socket. you could tag the connectors to the socket but that is probably more of a pita then they are willing to do for free. never say always. if a wire is broken there may well be zero voltage. i guess you missed the part where i said if the socket is powered. if a wire was broken then the socket would not be powered. it would if the broken wire was the ground wire. - no it would not. it would have power but it would still not be powered. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : max dodge

youre cherry-picking your information again and understandably coming up with wrong conclusions. the observed problem is occurring both *with* *engine* *running* and with engine not running. wrong. from the original post when the engine is running the inverter works fine; when the engine is running the inverter works fine. but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. when the engine is off the inverter shuts down. not hard to figure out really..... -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote lol unless he has a shorted cell the voltage while running is dependent on the regulator not the battery. very true. however if you read the op the problem is while the engine is not running. youre cherry-picking your information again and understandably coming up with wrong conclusions. the observed problem is occurring both *with* *engine* *running* and with engine not running. neil posted this **rear power outlet engine on ---------------------------------- **outlet alone 13.5 **with inverter alone 13.4 **with charger alone in inverter 13.3 **with laptop plugged in off and charging 12.0 **with laptop plugged in on and charging inverter turned off while certainly if the inverter turned itself off with engine running and alternator over-riding anything you could say about the battery it absloutely would turn off with the engine off - which he *of* *course* also found to be the case. what is the common thread of low voltage *both* with engine running and with engine not running it is not the battery because as has been said excluding a shorted cell or two it is *not* *in* *the* *picture* *when* *the* *engine* *is* *running*. the most likely common threads are a bad ground or voltage drop in the wiring. to repeat the battery is not a factor with the engine running since the alternator will force the regulating voltage in spite of a weak non-shorted battery. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : max dodge

care to try again sure.... you read english right with alt charging the system should show over 14v. which is accurate info. i never said it needed to be over 14v but under good conditions it will be. nor did i say that the battery was bad if the 14v wasnt there. care to read english oh thats right.... if it has power its still not powered. your words not mine. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. rubbish. with alt charging the system should show over 14v. second as yet no one has shown results of a load test which is the only way to find out how it works under a load. funny how that works...... -- max care to try again -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving i did read the op and the 1000 or so posts after it. you were the one that made the claim that the charging voltage needed to be over 14v and indicated that if not the battery was bad. this is simply not always true. especially when you claim i said it. never said that at all. learn to read. wait who am i kidding you might find facts if you did and that would fuck up your entire day. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author i did read the op and the 1000 or so posts after it. you were the one that made the claim that the charging voltage needed to be over 14v and indicated that if not the battery was bad. this is simply not always true. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving lol unless he has a shorted cell the voltage while running is dependent on the regulator not the battery. very true. however if you read the op the problem is while the engine is not running. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author lol unless he has a shorted cell the voltage while running is dependent on the regulator not the battery. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. rubbish. with alt charging the system should show over 14v. second as yet no one has shown results of a load test which is the only way to find out how it works under a load. funny how that works...... -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author on sat 11 mar 2006 234831 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote some more notes regarding this. with engine off i plug in the power inverter with nothing connected to inverter. get low voltage alarm 11.5v but inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop charger not connected to laptop and lights in laptop charger come on and inverter stays on. i then plug in laptop in need of charge but with laptop itself turned off to laptop charger. laptop lights show its charging and inverter stays on. i then unplug the laptop from charger while still in need of charge and turn it on. after laptop is booted i plug laptop back into charger. get a long alarm 5 seconds from inverter and it turns itself off indicating that voltage is 10.5v. thus it seems that even without a load except for the inverter its getting 11.5v. and its able to handle a small load but not the load with the laptop on. but again its only a 90w charger. and also again didnt have a problem with past two cars i had. regarding the battery itself there are my notes from the autozone battery test. 628 cold cranking amps 12.8v with alternator off 13.82 with alternator on thanks for any input. your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. your 90 watt inverter is ok. your laptop charger is ok. your laptop is ok. the wires to the back power outlet are too light for the length. get an automotive electrician to run a secondheavier wire from the fuse box back to the outlet. connect it in parallel with the original from a s close to the fuse as possible to as close to the plug as possible. cost less than a new battery and actually solve the problem. neil i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an er

From : joe

great crap all this thread about a stinking auxiliary power outlet sheesh! 1 measure the voltage at the outlet with the load applied. if its too low meassure at the battery. 2 if its too low at both the battery and the outlet replace the battery. 3 if its just too low at the outlet run a heavier gauge wire from the power distribution center to the power outlet. 4 stop whining. or better yet skip 1-4 above and a get a power adaptor for your laptop that doesnt need a cheeseball 120 v inverter in the first place http//us.kensington.com/html/1422.html b stop whining. i think you dont understand - when you see the crossposting to 5 groups youre supposed to realize this problem is much more critical and complex than it first appears and one befitting the 500-note thread that it has spawned. i gotta say this is one of the least interesting huge threads ive ever seen on usenet. i dont see how you guys can stand to post in it. youd have to be bent on deliberate ignorance to need more than about 3 minutes to troubleshoot this problem. .

From : bill putney

max dodge wrote care to try again sure.... you read english right with alt charging the system should show over 14v. which is accurate info. i never said it needed to be over 14v but under good conditions it will be. nor did i say that the battery was bad if the 14v wasnt there. care to read english oh thats right.... if it has power its still not powered. your words not mine. so youre going to pretend not to understand a technical subtlety and a subtlety of language to belittle. you may be the only person who doesnt understnad the meaning of what he said. you get it - you just dont want to - and thats giving you the benefit of the doubt. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : bill putney

joe wrote i think you dont understand - when you see the crossposting to 5 groups youre supposed to realize this problem is much more critical and complex than it first appears and one befitting the 500-note thread that it has spawned. thats kind of a natural by-product of having to counter a lot of mis-information. i gotta say this is one of the least interesting huge threads ive ever seen on usenet. we will try to be more intertaining next time. you didnt enjoy the bit about alternators being perpetual motion machines being able to create regulated voltage at zero rpm i thought that was entertaining. i dont see how you guys can stand to post in it... but i see that you couldnt stop yourself either. youd have to be bent on deliberate ignorance to need more than about 3 minutes to troubleshoot this problem. agreed. you hit the nail on the head with the deliberate ignorance explicitly pointed out in a couple of my posts description. and that as i pointed out is why it became so unnecessarily huge. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on mon 13 mar 2006 161948 -0500 daniel j. stern dastern@127.0.0.1 wrote on mon 13 mar 2006 neil wrote not sure if i did this correctly but i didnt see any drop. i placed the black lead on the negative battery post and touched the red lead to a clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car. that would be correct procedure if the clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car happened to be the location where the power outlet gets its ground. otherwise no. actually dan if he is testing the chassis or body ground it was the right way to do it - assuming the bright shiny spot was properly grounded. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : ted mittelstaedt

on mon 13 mar 2006 003227 -0800 ted mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com wrote auto zone and most battery retailers use a transconductance tester such as a midtronics tester to test batteries. most battery suppliers require the battery to be tested on one before replacement. it can test a battery that is 3/4 discharged accurately. if a midtronics tester says the battery is shot its shot. if it says its good 99.9% of the time its good. the only exception is an intermittent intercel connector which may test perfectly good once and read 100% dead even with a voltmeter the next. ive seen that happen only once. unfortunately those testers also miss batteries that have a high rate of self-discharge for some reason or another. my wife had one of these once a sears diehard. i could disconnect the negative battery lead and 2 days later the battery couldnt start the car. sears refused to replace it under warranty. that was the last diehard i ever bought. ted a diehard isnt a battery to start with - its a poor warranty attatched to a plastic box of lead and acid. lol actually diehards are all made by johnson controls have been from 1967-1994 and then again starting in 1999 onward. johnson controls also makes batteries for duralast autozone interstate kirkland costco motorcraft ford and some everstart walmart. my current favorite on batteries are buying the house brand from the local sporting goods store which always has sales their manufacturer is gnb aka exide. exide makes batteries for napa champion and some everstarts as well. the local sporting goods store is usually staffed by young kids who wouldnt know a battery from an alternator and ive never been hassled by them when bringing back a battery for warranty exchange. they also sell a lot of batteries and ive only seen batteries there that have manufacture dates older than 3 months in the really oddball sizes that hardly anyone uses. and frankly if you need an oddball battery your better off buying it dry and adding the electrolyte that is how most motorcycle batteries are sold. i usually buy the most expensive battery with the longest warranty and as a preventative maintainence item i simply replace all vehicle batteries i have at the 5 year mark whether they need it or not. by then the battery has gotten into the prorate amount so by doing this i really end up paying the same amount every 5 years for a battery that i would have if i bought a cheap battery and im guarenteed to have a good battery in the car. at my job i have a dozen or so upss i manage among other things that use lead acid gel cells and the upss have computers that monitor and test the batteries regularly. lead acid cells whether gel or wet or spiral wound or whatever all work the same way. over time their internal resistance rises and their capacity drops as more and more of the plate sulfates and after 10 years they are finished. and this happens no matter whether you have a $2k computer and charging system on the things or a $10 trickle charger consisting of a transformer and a diode. all the fancy computerized charger does for you is to add perhaps 2-3 years of usable life on the battery tops. the problem with sears is that they are simply too greedy. in the case with my wifes diehard it had already gotten into the prorate period on the warranty and we would have ended up getting something like a 20 buck credit on purchase of a new $60 diehard. but with sears instead of taking the $40 they held out for the entire $60 and i told them screw you and we left so they ended up getting nothing. ill still buy wrenches screwdrivers and sockets there but ill never buy a battery there again. ted .

From : ted mittelstaedt

average is the important word here - and a lot of batteries dont last 2 years. discounting infant mortality average battery lifespan is closer to 5 years. not counting those undersized delco freedom batteries of a few years back. a lot of this depends on the cca rating of the battery and the size of the engine. if you have a huffing massive cca rating battery and a tiny 1500cc engine that is in good tune that your driving every day you can easily get 10 years out of it. of course by the 10th year the battery is probably down to 15% of its original capacity and if the engine doesent fire on the 2nd or 3rd revolution your going to have to tow it which a lot of people find out after the fact to their sorrow. the cost of a single tow or the yearly cost for aaa membership to get the free towing really dwarfs what you would pay if you just changed the battery more often. not to mention the inconvenience of getting stuck. jumping isnt always an option and if you cross the cables your going to be really spending a lot more than just for a new battery - its a lot easier to do than people think when your trying to jump a car at 11pm in the dark in the middle of a rainstorm. the starting system of a vehicle is not what you want to gamble with. unfortunately in the us the trend is to oversized engines stuffed into a tiny engine compartment so theres not a lot of room for the battery so a lot of vehicle manufacturers i think size the battery too small. ted .

From : bg

140 watts at 12 volts is 10 amps actually it will be more. thats alot of continuous current if you actually are using 140 watts. i would check the lighter socket the wires to it and the fuse block connections. with two people one to plug the inverter in and out and the other to measure voltage at key points like the battery up to the lighter it should be easy to see where the voltage is dropping. .

From : bill putney

max dodge wrote youre cherry-picking your information again and understandably coming up with wrong conclusions. the observed problem is occurring both *with* *engine* *running* and with engine not running. wrong. from the original post when the engine is running the inverter works fine; when the engine is running the inverter works fine. but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. when the engine is off the inverter shuts down. not hard to figure out really..... you just proved my point about cherry-picking waht you want to take into account that means choosing to observe certain infirmation but ignore other just as important to support your pre-made conclusion. whats the info. that you are choosing to ignore this that the op also posted and i included it in my previous post that you just repsonded to so its not like you had to look for it - you had to intentionally disregard it neil posted this **rear power outlet engine on ---------------------------------- **outlet alone 13.5 **with inverter alone 13.4 **with charger alone in inverter 13.3 **with laptop plugged in off and charging 12.0 **with laptop plugged in on and charging inverter turned off splain that one. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on mon 13 mar 2006 213800 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote how would i determine where the power outlet gets its ground on mon 13 mar 2006 neil wrote not sure if i did this correctly but i didnt see any drop. i placed the black lead on the negative battery post and touched the red lead to a clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car. that would be correct procedure if the clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car happened to be the location where the power outlet gets its ground. otherwise no. at this stage you dont need to. you are testing the chassis or body ground. if it tests out ok you need to test the socket ground - same procedure but with the socket under load voltmeter from socket shell to clean chassis or body ground. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on mon 13 mar 2006 224526 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote not sure if i did this correctly but i didnt see any drop. i placed the black lead on the negative battery post and touched the red lead to a clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car. that would be correct procedure if the clean shiny area of metal on the outside of the car happened to be the location where the power outlet gets its ground. otherwise no. read again dan..... black on negative post and red on clean body metal will get you a zero reading everytime on a negative ground system. this would put the meter in parallel with the ground cable from the battery. and under load will not give a zero reading if there is resistance in the ground connection. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on tue 14 mar 2006 041640 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote not if the body ground was bad where the socket gets its ground and that is what this test is looking for. read it again... what he describes is a check for voltage between battery negative and negative ground..... which would read zero since the two are directly connected. which proves max that you do not understand automotive electrical troubleshooting. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on tue 14 mar 2006 001438 gmt tbone tbonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote even a bad ground will show 12 volts if there is any connection at all with no load on it. tbone we are just trying to prove the shiny spot he is connecting to is grounded. with the circuit under load there will still be no load between the actual chassis ground and this shiny ground so no voltage drop there. it will then be an acceptable refference to use for checking voltage drop on the chassis ground connection. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on tue 14 mar 2006 012123 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote ok i stopped at the auto parts store and asked the guy where a ground would be. he suggested the metal that the alternator is attached to. i tested it with your test and got 12.9v so thats a good ground doing the test you suggested earlier i placed the black on the negative post and the red on the ground and turned on the heater full blast and turned on the lights. with the vm on the 2000 mv setting it read 007. ok now we are getting somewhere but that is to the engine ground. you need to do the same test to the chassis ground. use the ground strap on the wiper motor or even the steel brake line at the master cyl as body ground and either the engine ground or the battery negativepreferred and run the test again. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on mon 13 mar 2006 223943 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote typical answer of someone advocating expensive tests before inexpensive tests. you must run a garage. a load test on a battery is a five minute if that job and may be done for free if the garage owner is a decent sort. real expensive... not. and ive told neil and the rest of you how to do it himself with only the car and the vom. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : tbone

i know i misread what the test was doing my bad ;- -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving on tue 14 mar 2006 001438 gmt tbone tbonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote even a bad ground will show 12 volts if there is any connection at all with no load on it. tbone we are just trying to prove the shiny spot he is connecting to is grounded. with the circuit under load there will still be no load between the actual chassis ground and this shiny ground so no voltage drop there. it will then be an acceptable refference to use for checking voltage drop on the chassis ground connection. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : tbone

no it would not. it would have power but it would still not be powered. ahahahaahahahah. and you say i dont know electricity........ that is because you dont and just about every post you put in here proves it jackass...... already with the name calling... shows the validity of your argument. has power but isnt powered..... good one....... and if you understood .... oh never mind... it is too far beyond you. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving tbone wrote tbone wrote reaching into the socket as you suggest would be pointless as with no load their will always be battery voltage if the socket is powered. the drop comes from current draw which will only happen if the load is connected and then there is no reaching into the socket. you could tag the connectors to the socket but that is probably more of a pita then they are willing to do for free. never say always. if a wire is broken there may well be zero voltage. i guess you missed the part where i said if the socket is powered. if a wire was broken then the socket would not be powered. it would if the broken wire was the ground wire. - no it would not. it would have power but it would still not be powered. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

not if the body ground was bad where the socket gets its ground and that is what this test is looking for. read it again... what he describes is a check for voltage between battery negative and negative ground..... which would read zero since the two are directly connected. and that is the whole point of the test maxi to make sure that they are directly connected. if they are then you would get the zero reading that you expect but if not then the voltage is going to be a little higher on the body due to the resistance in the bad connection between the body and the battery ground and the meter will show it. for all the years of troubleshooting you claim to have you really dont know shit. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

care to try again sure.... you read english right yea and unlike you i comprehend it as well. with alt charging the system should show over 14v. that is dependent on the regulator and 13.8 will charge a battery just fine without cooking it. which is accurate info. i never said it needed to be over 14v but under good conditions it will be. nor did i say that the battery was bad if the 14v wasnt there. really!!! lets look over this bullshit of yours again. your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. here the poster you replied to claimed the battery to be ok and in fact it is. rubbish. with alt charging the system should show over 14v. now in your first word you are claiming him to be incorrect that the battery is bad and then justify your incorrect assessment by saying that the voltage under charge should be over 14 volts. when you put your bs together it comes out as charging voltage under 14v indicates a bad battery. any way you try and spin it this is what you said. if its not what you meant perhaps you should take a class in sentence structure and beginning writing but i bet that will not be necessary as this is what you meant and are now denying it as it would make you wrong. care to read english care to comprehend even what you write!!! oh thats right.... if it has power its still not powered. your words not mine. and completely correct even if you are unable to understand it and with the bs you said above its no wonder that you dont. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : neil

in this car and others ive had the battery is up high and you access the battery posts directly. so i guess i dont have these jump posts. whats an lh car neil wrote by jump post i assume you dont mean the battery post. if not then im not sure what youre referring to. i dont know if the van has this same jump post but you might check into that or other joints in the power cables. in the lh cars the battery is buried behind a fender so they bring the positive cables up to an accessible point beside the engine for jumping it off or measuring battery voltage without jacking the car up and removing the fender liner. with the excpetion of the power cable between the battery and alternator *all* vehicle power goes thru that jump post which consists of a threaded stud 3 cables and two nuts to clamp the cables on the stud. i was thinking that the minivans may have a similar jump post - but am not familiar with the minivans so am not sure. on the lh car there also is a negative jump post which is also a main ground point for the vehicle - it would also be a good idea to check the single ground lug bolt to be sure it is tight. a given vehicle would either have both or neither. again - not sure about the minivans. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : dave

neil wrote in this car and others ive had the battery is up high and you access the battery posts directly. so i guess i dont have these jump posts. whats an lh car chrysler concorde 300m dodge intrepid and the late eagle vision .

From : bill putney

dave wrote neil wrote in this car and others ive had the battery is up high and you access the battery posts directly. so i guess i dont have these jump posts. whats an lh car chrysler concorde 300m dodge intrepid and the late eagle vision ....and lhs. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : daniel j stern

on tue 14 mar 2006 bill putney wrote max dodge wrote the usual spew so youre going to pretend not to understand a technical subtlety and a subtlety of language to belittle. manish tanah halailah hazeh hebrew for why is this night different from all other nights. this has been max m.o. for many years. .

From : daniel j stern

on tue 14 mar 2006 bg wrote 140 watts at 12 volts is 10 amps 140w at 12v is 11.67 amps. .

From : max dodge

**rear power outlet engine on ---------------------------------- **outlet alone 13.5 **with inverter alone 13.4 **with charger alone in inverter 13.3 **with laptop plugged in off and charging 12.0 **with laptop plugged in on and charging inverter turned off splain that one. no problem. he either has a problem with battery under load or voltage at the port. so either he can do a two minute test and find out if the battery is the problem which has been suggested by the only tech to actually be near the vehicle or he can rewire the vehicle to the port gets more power. a battery load test is next to free and a battery is about $60. rewiring the port so it carries proper voltage at all times.... well thats $60 an hour at least and would likely take 2-4 hours. i think the battery load test is not only inexpensive but warranted given the age and manufacture of the battery. but i think weve covered that ground because as much as youd like to deny it the above info was taken into account when i gave my recommendation. argue amongst yourselves. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote youre cherry-picking your information again and understandably coming up with wrong conclusions. the observed problem is occurring both *with* *engine* *running* and with engine not running. wrong. from the original post when the engine is running the inverter works fine; when the engine is running the inverter works fine. but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. when the engine is off the inverter shuts down. not hard to figure out really..... you just proved my point about cherry-picking waht you want to take into account that means choosing to observe certain infirmation but ignore other just as important to support your pre-made conclusion. whats the info. that you are choosing to ignore this that the op also posted and i included it in my previous post that you just repsonded to so its not like you had to look for it - you had to intentionally disregard it neil posted this **rear power outlet engine on ---------------------------------- **outlet alone 13.5 **with inverter alone 13.4 **with charger alone in inverter 13.3 **with laptop plugged in off and charging 12.0 **with laptop plugged in on and charging inverter turned off splain that one. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : max dodge

oh only several and making a steady living as a technical writer. amazing eh! not really considering the obvious lack of experience out in the field. i figured there was a better than even chance that youd be driving a desk rather than turning wrenches for a living. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote it would be neither know*s* no it would be exactly as i wrote it since both are acceptable. thats not how it works. ever take an english class oh only several and making a steady living as a technical writer. amazing eh! bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : tbone

then so what if the battery will provide enough power to crank the car it will provide enough power to charge a laptop for more than a few seconds. two seconds of cranking the engine would likely charge the laptop battery several times over. so what do you think a load test is going to prove more rubbish. cranking the engine is not a computer monitored function. thus you can crank the engine till the battery dies. the invertor otoh monitors power draw to confirm that it will have constant voltage/amperage so as to not mess with stuff like a laptop. if the invertor finds a drop itll shut down. do you really not understand what is being said here or are just being a stubborn idiot what is being said is that if the battery is being pulled down below 10.v with a miniscule load then it wouldnt have enough power to crank it much at all never mind enough power to start a computer controlled vehicle. a load test will prove that a battery is capable of handling any load on it as well as noting condition. its a basic test and is the first again wtf test one should do in diagnosing an electrical system problem. the load test was already done and confirmed the battery to still have over 600 cca. big deal. as someone suggested perhaps the voltage drops to the port he is using..... oh yeah a bunch of us have. if the voltage is dropping this much with an 8a draw then it would drop so much with 200+a for the starter than the engine wouldnt crank. yes a bunch of you have suggested to replace the battery before doing any real troubleshooting and a bunch of you are likely wrong. bullshit. i defy you to find a post of mine where i said replace the battery before testing it. second as i discussed above the starter doesnt care how much it draws on the battery nor does the ecm until it hits 10.5v at which point the injectors will not fire. the invertor otoh will at least should cut power it if finds an anomoly which threatens the delicate electronics it is feeding. lol you are kidding right. do you really think that the circutry in some plug in inverter is going to be more sensitive than the vehicles ecm. anytime a problem that might be related to battery load occurs the first test is the source of power to determine its capacity capability and performance under load. only when you have a known quantity as the power source can you accurately determine other issues such as voltage drop to the power port. this is funny. if you have an electrical problem in your house do you start troubleshooting at the power generating plant of your electrical untility no i start at the load center on the wall you know the big grey box where all the circuit breakers are. same box has the big ass cable coming in from the street that feeds the house. so yes i do check the power source in troubleshooting a home electrical problem as well. what part of this is so hard to understand check the source to be sure you have acceptable power coming into the system. then you are an idiot. most people will start at the plug and work backwards from there. anyone who thinks otherwise is a very poor tech and needs further training. anyone who suggests changing a battery before performing even the most basic checks and reviewing a schematic needs further training. well since i didnt suggest changing the battery before tests perhaps i will suggest you learn to read what ive posted. you made it an either / or in your first post. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

max dodge wrote then so what if the battery will provide enough power to crank the car it will provide enough power to charge a laptop for more than a few seconds. two seconds of cranking the engine would likely charge the laptop battery several times over. so what do you think a load test is going to prove more rubbish. cranking the engine is not a computer monitored function. thus you can crank the engine till the battery dies. the invertor otoh monitors power draw to confirm that it will have constant voltage/amperage so as to not mess with stuff like a laptop. if the invertor finds a drop itll shut down. hardly. if the voltage drops much under load it wont provide enough current to crank the starter. define much i would say that 1.5v drop with a 14 amp load at 12v to be a good definition of much what about you do you understand ohms law at all i daresay i understand it better than most then show it. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : steve

bill putney wrote dave wrote neil wrote in this car and others ive had the battery is up high and you access the battery posts directly. so i guess i dont have these jump posts. whats an lh car chrysler concorde 300m dodge intrepid and the late eagle vision ...and lhs. and for a couple of years starting in 94- new yorker. .

From : neil

ok i couldnt find the wiper motor or the brake line at the master cylinder. but i did find a bolt that connected the wiper fluid reservoir to the body. i assumed that would be a body ground. and i tested it with your other test and it registered over 12v with the red on positive and black on the bolt. so using that i put the vm on the negative post and the bolt turned on the heater fan and headlights. with the vm at the 2000 mv setting it read 051. on tue 14 mar 2006 012123 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote ok i stopped at the auto parts store and asked the guy where a ground would be. he suggested the metal that the alternator is attached to. i tested it with your test and got 12.9v so thats a good ground doing the test you suggested earlier i placed the black on the negative post and the red on the ground and turned on the heater full blast and turned on the lights. with the vm on the 2000 mv setting it read 007. ok now we are getting somewhere but that is to the engine ground. you need to do the same test to the chassis ground. use the ground strap on the wiper motor or even the steel brake line at the master cyl as body ground and either the engine ground or the battery negativepreferred and run the test again. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : max dodge

tbone sez...... no it would not. it would have power but it would still not be powered. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author not if the body ground was bad where the socket gets its ground and that is what this test is looking for. read it again... what he describes is a check for voltage between battery negative and negative ground..... which would read zero since the two are directly connected. and that is the whole point of the test maxi to make sure that they are directly connected. if they are then you would get the zero reading that you expect but if not then the voltage is going to be a little higher on the body due to the resistance in the bad connection between the body and the battery ground and the meter will show it. for all the years of troubleshooting you claim to have you really dont know shit. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : max dodge

tbone sez...... no it would not. it would have power but it would still not be powered. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote then so what if the battery will provide enough power to crank the car it will provide enough power to charge a laptop for more than a few seconds. two seconds of cranking the engine would likely charge the laptop battery several times over. so what do you think a load test is going to prove more rubbish. cranking the engine is not a computer monitored function. thus you can crank the engine till the battery dies. the invertor otoh monitors power draw to confirm that it will have constant voltage/amperage so as to not mess with stuff like a laptop. if the invertor finds a drop itll shut down. hardly. if the voltage drops much under load it wont provide enough current to crank the starter. define much i would say that 1.5v drop with a 14 amp load at 12v to be a good definition of much what about you do you understand ohms law at all i daresay i understand it better than most then show it. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : max dodge

it would be neither know*s* no it would be exactly as i wrote it since both are acceptable. ever take an english class -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote ...and neither of you know proper troubleshooting procedure. it would be neither know*s* as long as it makes you feel good to say that thats all that matters. you have a lovely day too. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : steve

bill putney wrote steve wrote great crap all this thread about a stinking auxiliary power outlet... whats amazing is that the op neil has managed to separate the clutter from the good information. that is truly amazing and hes not the object of my comments really. although it sure seems like it would be a whole lot easier to just run new heavier wires both power and ground to the socket and git-r-done in an hour rather than keep futzing around with it. .

From : max dodge

tbone sez...... no it would not. it would have power but it would still not be powered. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author no it would not. it would have power but it would still not be powered. ahahahaahahahah. and you say i dont know electricity........ that is because you dont and just about every post you put in here proves it jackass...... already with the name calling... shows the validity of your argument. has power but isnt powered..... good one....... and if you understood .... oh never mind... it is too far beyond you. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving tbone wrote tbone wrote reaching into the socket as you suggest would be pointless as with no load their will always be battery voltage if the socket is powered. the drop comes from current draw which will only happen if the load is connected and then there is no reaching into the socket. you could tag the connectors to the socket but that is probably more of a pita then they are willing to do for free. never say always. if a wire is broken there may well be zero voltage. i guess you missed the part where i said if the socket is powered. if a wire was broken then the socket would not be powered. it would if the broken wire was the ground wire. - no it would not. it would have power but it would still not be powered. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : max dodge

tbone sez...... no it would not. it would have power but it would still not be powered. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author care to try again sure.... you read english right yea and unlike you i comprehend it as well. with alt charging the system should show over 14v. that is dependent on the regulator and 13.8 will charge a battery just fine without cooking it. which is accurate info. i never said it needed to be over 14v but under good conditions it will be. nor did i say that the battery was bad if the 14v wasnt there. really!!! lets look over this bullshit of yours again. your battery is ok. regardless what anyone else tells you. here the poster you replied to claimed the battery to be ok and in fact it is. rubbish. with alt charging the system should show over 14v. now in your first word you are claiming him to be incorrect that the battery is bad and then justify your incorrect assessment by saying that the voltage under charge should be over 14 volts. when you put your bs together it comes out as charging voltage under 14v indicates a bad battery. any way you try and spin it this is what you said. if its not what you meant perhaps you should take a class in sentence structure and beginning writing but i bet that will not be necessary as this is what you meant and are now denying it as it would make you wrong. care to read english care to comprehend even what you write!!! oh thats right.... if it has power its still not powered. your words not mine. and completely correct even if you are unable to understand it and with the bs you said above its no wonder that you dont. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : max dodge

tbone sez...... no it would not. it would have power but it would still not be powered. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author then so what if the battery will provide enough power to crank the car it will provide enough power to charge a laptop for more than a few seconds. two seconds of cranking the engine would likely charge the laptop battery several times over. so what do you think a load test is going to prove more rubbish. cranking the engine is not a computer monitored function. thus you can crank the engine till the battery dies. the invertor otoh monitors power draw to confirm that it will have constant voltage/amperage so as to not mess with stuff like a laptop. if the invertor finds a drop itll shut down. do you really not understand what is being said here or are just being a stubborn idiot what is being said is that if the battery is being pulled down below 10.v with a miniscule load then it wouldnt have enough power to crank it much at all never mind enough power to start a computer controlled vehicle. a load test will prove that a battery is capable of handling any load on it as well as noting condition. its a basic test and is the first again wtf test one should do in diagnosing an electrical system problem. the load test was already done and confirmed the battery to still have over 600 cca. big deal. as someone suggested perhaps the voltage drops to the port he is using..... oh yeah a bunch of us have. if the voltage is dropping this much with an 8a draw then it would drop so much with 200+a for the starter than the engine wouldnt crank. yes a bunch of you have suggested to replace the battery before doing any real troubleshooting and a bunch of you are likely wrong. bullshit. i defy you to find a post of mine where i said replace the battery before testing it. second as i discussed above the starter doesnt care how much it draws on the battery nor does the ecm until it hits 10.5v at which point the injectors will not fire. the invertor otoh will at least should cut power it if finds an anomoly which threatens the delicate electronics it is feeding. lol you are kidding right. do you really think that the circutry in some plug in inverter is going to be more sensitive than the vehicles ecm. anytime a problem that might be related to battery load occurs the first test is the source of power to determine its capacity capability and performance under load. only when you have a known quantity as the power source can you accurately determine other issues such as voltage drop to the power port. this is funny. if you have an electrical problem in your house do you start troubleshooting at the power generating plant of your electrical untility no i start at the load center on the wall you know the big grey box where all the circuit breakers are. same box has the big ass cable coming in from the street that feeds the house. so yes i do check the power source in troubleshooting a home electrical problem as well. what part of this is so hard to understand check the source to be sure you have acceptable power coming into the system. then you are an idiot. most people will start at the plug and work backwards from there. anyone who thinks otherwise is a very poor tech and needs further training. anyone who suggests changing a battery before performing even the most basic checks and reviewing a schematic needs further training. well since i didnt suggest changing the battery before tests perhaps i will suggest you learn to read what ive posted. you made it an either / or in your first post. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : matt whiting

max dodge wrote oh only several and making a steady living as a technical writer. amazing eh! not really considering the obvious lack of experience out in the field. i figured there was a better than even chance that youd be driving a desk rather than turning wrenches for a living. and considering your obvious lack of electrical experience probably better to stick with wrenches and leave the dvms to those with more experience in things electrical. matt .

From : max dodge

and considering your obvious lack of electrical experience probably better to stick with wrenches and leave the dvms to those with more experience in things electrical. like those of you who wanted to test only the port after the op supplied info indicating the voltage drop at the port the only question after that was whether it was caused by poor/substandard wiring or an aged battery. but you experts didnt want to test the battery. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote oh only several and making a steady living as a technical writer. amazing eh! not really considering the obvious lack of experience out in the field. i figured there was a better than even chance that youd be driving a desk rather than turning wrenches for a living. and considering your obvious lack of electrical experience probably better to stick with wrenches and leave the dvms to those with more experience in things electrical. matt .

From : matt whiting

max dodge wrote and considering your obvious lack of electrical experience probably better to stick with wrenches and leave the dvms to those with more experience in things electrical. like those of you who wanted to test only the port after the op supplied info indicating the voltage drop at the port the only question after that was whether it was caused by poor/substandard wiring or an aged battery. but you experts didnt want to test the battery. we experts never said not to test the battery. we said that wasnt the logical first step. matt .

From : max dodge

we experts never said not to test the battery. we said that wasnt the logical first step. given that we knew 1 from device behavior that a voltage drop at the port was evident 2 that the battery was 3 years old and a factory installation 3 that the battery voltage tested at lower than 13v which would be peak charge after having been charged seconds before 4 a technician confirmed age and origin of battery as being indicators of needed replacement and 5 that the port wiring might be less than optimum the only logical first step would be to load test the battery to be sure that it was not dropping in a like manner to the port voltage. this would be the only test that could confirm either battery failure or wiring failure since we already knew there was a voltage drop at the port. meanwhile you guys would be poking a meter into the port trying to not cross the probes in an effort to find out what you already knew..... the port has a voltage drop. silly desk drivers for some reason didnt believe the inverter when it clearly did what it was supposed to do under the given conditions. yeah the op said it in his first post however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. why test the port again before checking the battery performance -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote and considering your obvious lack of electrical experience probably better to stick with wrenches and leave the dvms to those with more experience in things electrical. like those of you who wanted to test only the port after the op supplied info indicating the voltage drop at the port the only question after that was whether it was caused by poor/substandard wiring or an aged battery. but you experts didnt want to test the battery. we experts never said not to test the battery. we said that wasnt the logical first step. matt .

From : neil

reminds me of something that happened several months ago with my other car the gmc jimmy. car died on me while driving and i couldnt start it again. towed it into the shop and they couldnt find what was wrong with it. said that there wasnt enough voltage going to the starter but they couldnt see why. so they started changing parts. they changed one part and the guy told me well were getting more voltage but its still not enough. were going to try the next one in the line. i said that it didnt make sense that two components would go out simultaneously. he said they were going to try it. so they replaced the next component. and they got a little more voltage but still not enough. so then the owner of the shop said hed have it towed to his other shop where they have more experienced mechanics. those guys looked at it and found the problem in less than an hour there was an ignition cut-off switch in the line which had shorted out. they removed the switch and the problem was solved. neil wrote someone else said it would be a whole lot easier just to change the battery. i suppose we could just change everything. that would solve the problem. - yes id just change the whole car. - matt .

From : neil

someone else said it would be a whole lot easier just to change the battery. i suppose we could just change everything. that would solve the problem. - bill putney wrote steve wrote great crap all this thread about a stinking auxiliary power outlet... whats amazing is that the op neil has managed to separate the clutter from the good information. that is truly amazing and hes not the object of my comments really. although it sure seems like it would be a whole lot easier to just run new heavier wires both power and ground to the socket and git-r-done in an hour rather than keep futzing around with it. .

From : matt whiting

neil wrote someone else said it would be a whole lot easier just to change the battery. i suppose we could just change everything. that would solve the problem. - yes id just change the whole car. - matt .

From : joe

neil wrote someone else said it would be a whole lot easier just to change the battery. i suppose we could just change everything. that would solve the problem. - yes id just change the whole car. - matt id just stop crossposting such easy problems. whats next flat tires .

From : bill putney

max dodge wrote oh only several and making a steady living as a technical writer. amazing eh! not really considering the obvious lack of experience out in the field. i figured there was a better than even chance that youd be driving a desk rather than turning wrenches for a living. heh! if you consider over 20 years of circuit design including designing and prototyping means building by hand *battery* *charger* and *regulator* circuits pioneering developments in the design of electronics for diagnostics in the field of doppler blood flow designing robot arm hand controllers for the space station electical design lead for titan missiles and designing fixtures for supporting navy shipboard equipment for shock testing shocked by dynamite as desk jobs then youd be right. but as usual... hey - do you know what litz wire is i didnt think so without your doing a google search. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : tbone

lol is this all you got of course it is. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving tbone sez...... no it would not. it would have power but it would still not be powered. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author no it would not. it would have power but it would still not be powered. ahahahaahahahah. and you say i dont know electricity........ that is because you dont and just about every post you put in here proves it jackass...... already with the name calling... shows the validity of your argument. has power but isnt powered..... good one....... and if you understood .... oh never mind... it is too far beyond you. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving tbone wrote tbone wrote reaching into the socket as you suggest would be pointless as with no load their will always be battery voltage if the socket is powered. the drop comes from current draw which will only happen if the load is connected and then there is no reaching into the socket. you could tag the connectors to the socket but that is probably more of a pita then they are willing to do for free. never say always. if a wire is broken there may well be zero voltage. i guess you missed the part where i said if the socket is powered. if a wire was broken then the socket would not be powered. it would if the broken wire was the ground wire. - no it would not. it would have power but it would still not be powered. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on tue 14 mar 2006 204459 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote ok i couldnt find the wiper motor or the brake line at the master cylinder. but i did find a bolt that connected the wiper fluid reservoir to the body. i assumed that would be a body ground. and i tested it with your other test and it registered over 12v with the red on positive and black on the bolt. so using that i put the vm on the negative post and the bolt turned on the heater fan and headlights. with the vm at the 2000 mv setting it read 051. ok you have a .05 voltage drop between the battery negative and the body ground. not good. fix this first. clean the connection between the battery neg and the body or just add a new body ground. use minimum #6 wire. on tue 14 mar 2006 012123 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote ok i stopped at the auto parts store and asked the guy where a ground would be. he suggested the metal that the alternator is attached to. i tested it with your test and got 12.9v so thats a good ground doing the test you suggested earlier i placed the black on the negative post and the red on the ground and turned on the heater full blast and turned on the lights. with the vm on the 2000 mv setting it read 007. ok now we are getting somewhere but that is to the engine ground. you need to do the same test to the chassis ground. use the ground strap on the wiper motor or even the steel brake line at the master cyl as body ground and either the engine ground or the battery negativepreferred and run the test again. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : max dodge

youre proving a high level of dishonesty on your part by repeating that lie numerous times. as was accurately pointed out several times by others the battery voltage was already tested and the inverter cuts off even with the alternator pumping the system well above battery voltage and measurements showing considerable drop in the wiring. voltage tesed yes load tested no. time to test the battery for load handling ability. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote and considering your obvious lack of electrical experience probably better to stick with wrenches and leave the dvms to those with more experience in things electrical. like those of you who wanted to test only the port after the op supplied info indicating the voltage drop at the port the only question after that was whether it was caused by poor/substandard wiring or an aged battery. but you experts didnt want to test the battery. youre proving a high level of dishonesty on your part by repeating that lie numerous times. as was accurately pointed out several times by others the battery voltage was already tested and the inverter cuts off even with the alternator pumping the system well above battery voltage and measurements showing considerable drop in the wiring. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : bill putney

steve wrote bill putney wrote hey - do you know what litz wire is yeah a pain in the a$$ to work with. ;- lol! yeah - each strand has to be individually stripped to terminate unless the insulation can be melted off in soldering. also expensive to manufacture. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : max dodge

lol is this all you got of course it is. its all i need. your statement was so stupid as to be the epitome of your entire posting style. tbone sez...... no it would not. it would have power but it would still not be powered. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author lol is this all you got of course it is. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving tbone sez...... no it would not. it would have power but it would still not be powered. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author no it would not. it would have power but it would still not be powered. ahahahaahahahah. and you say i dont know electricity........ that is because you dont and just about every post you put in here proves it jackass...... already with the name calling... shows the validity of your argument. has power but isnt powered..... good one....... and if you understood .... oh never mind... it is too far beyond you. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving tbone wrote tbone wrote reaching into the socket as you suggest would be pointless as with no load their will always be battery voltage if the socket is powered. the drop comes from current draw which will only happen if the load is connected and then there is no reaching into the socket. you could tag the connectors to the socket but that is probably more of a pita then they are willing to do for free. never say always. if a wire is broken there may well be zero voltage. i guess you missed the part where i said if the socket is powered. if a wire was broken then the socket would not be powered. it would if the broken wire was the ground wire. - no it would not. it would have power but it would still not be powered. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : neil

just a note when i wrote that i was referring to the front outlet. rather than deal with issues with wiring to the rear outlet i was just referring to the front outlet and how it couldnt power the inverter/laptop with the engine off. the voltage readings from the later post also show a very low reading in the front when the engine was off 11.2v though in that case it didnt drop below 11v so the inverter stayed on. wrong. from the original post when the engine is running the inverter works fine; when the engine is running the inverter works fine. but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. when the engine is off the inverter shuts down. not hard to figure out really..... -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote lol unless he has a shorted cell the voltage while running is dependent on the regulator not the battery. very true. however if you read the op the problem is while the engine is not running. youre cherry-picking your information again and understandably coming up with wrong conclusions. the observed problem is occurring both *with* *engine* *running* and with engine not running. neil posted this **rear power outlet engine on ---------------------------------- **outlet alone 13.5 **with inverter alone 13.4 **with charger alone in inverter 13.3 **with laptop plugged in off and charging 12.0 **with laptop plugged in on and charging inverter turned off while certainly if the inverter turned itself off with engine running and alternator over-riding anything you could say about the battery it absloutely would turn off with the engine off - which he *of* *course* also found to be the case. what is the common thread of low voltage *both* with engine running and with engine not running it is not the battery because as has been said excluding a shorted cell or two it is *not* *in* *the* *picture* *when* *the* *engine* *is* *running*. the most likely common threads are a bad ground or voltage drop in the wiring. to repeat the battery is not a factor with the engine running since the alternator will force the regulating voltage in spite of a weak non-shorted battery. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : dan c

on wed 15 mar 2006 024050 +0000 neil wrote someone else said it would be a whole lot easier just to change the battery. i suppose we could just change everything. that would solve the problem. - jesus do something and let this idiotic thread die. hard to friggin believe. -- if youre not on the edge youre taking up too much space. linux registered user #327951 .

From : matt whiting

bill putney wrote hey - do you know what litz wire is i didnt think so without your doing a google search. bill im an ee and i dont know. care to tell us matt .

From : ken weitzel

matt whiting wrote bill putney wrote hey - do you know what litz wire is i didnt think so without your doing a google search. bill im an ee and i dont know. care to tell us matt hi... you must be one of the young ones still a little wet behind the ears comparatively speaking of course ken .

From : bill putney

max dodge wrote and considering your obvious lack of electrical experience probably better to stick with wrenches and leave the dvms to those with more experience in things electrical. like those of you who wanted to test only the port after the op supplied info indicating the voltage drop at the port the only question after that was whether it was caused by poor/substandard wiring or an aged battery. but you experts didnt want to test the battery. youre proving a high level of dishonesty on your part by repeating that lie numerous times. as was accurately pointed out several times by others the battery voltage was already tested and the inverter cuts off even with the alternator pumping the system well above battery voltage and measurements showing considerable drop in the wiring. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : bill putney

joe wrote neil wrote someone else said it would be a whole lot easier just to change the battery. i suppose we could just change everything. that would solve the problem. - yes id just change the whole car. - matt id just stop crossposting such easy problems. whats next flat tires if we did max dodge would certainly suggest running a full volumetric flow rate test of the compressor that had been used to originally fill the tire and to ignore any holes observed in the tire until that was done. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : matt whiting

neil wrote reminds me of something that happened several months ago with my other car the gmc jimmy. car died on me while driving and i couldnt start it again. towed it into the shop and they couldnt find what was wrong with it. said that there wasnt enough voltage going to the starter but they couldnt see why. so they started changing parts. they changed one part and the guy told me well were getting more voltage but its still not enough. were going to try the next one in the line. i said that it didnt make sense that two components would go out simultaneously. he said they were going to try it. so they replaced the next component. and they got a little more voltage but still not enough. so then the owner of the shop said hed have it towed to his other shop where they have more experienced mechanics. those guys looked at it and found the problem in less than an hour there was an ignition cut-off switch in the line which had shorted out. they removed the switch and the problem was solved. but the important question is did they load test and replace the battery - matt .

From : neil

so either he can do a two minute test and find out if the battery is the problem which has been suggested by the only tech to actually be near the vehicle or he can rewire the vehicle to the port gets more power. actually the only techs to be near the vehicle were service managers at two service stations both of which said they had no device to test the voltage at the power outlet. the one i believe youre referring to the one at a dealer said that the battery was three years old and should just be replaced that that was probably the problem. he didnt suggest any test. the other one suggested i buy a capacitor to add to the rear outlet like people do when they want to run high-powered stereo equipment. neil a battery load test is next to free and a battery is about $60. rewiring the port so it carries proper voltage at all times.... well thats $60 an hour at least and would likely take 2-4 hours. i think the battery load test is not only inexpensive but warranted given the age and manufacture of the battery. but i think weve covered that ground because as much as youd like to deny it the above info was taken into account when i gave my recommendation. argue amongst yourselves. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote youre cherry-picking your information again and understandably coming up with wrong conclusions. the observed problem is occurring both *with* *engine* *running* and with engine not running. wrong. from the original post when the engine is running the inverter works fine; when the engine is running the inverter works fine. but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. when the engine is off the inverter shuts down. not hard to figure out really..... you just proved my point about cherry-picking waht you want to take into account that means choosing to observe certain infirmation but ignore other just as important to support your pre-made conclusion. whats the info. that you are choosing to ignore this that the op also posted and i included it in my previous post that you just repsonded to so its not like you had to look for it - you had to intentionally disregard it neil posted this **rear power outlet engine on ---------------------------------- **outlet alone 13.5 **with inverter alone 13.4 **with charger alone in inverter 13.3 **with laptop plugged in off and charging 12.0 **with laptop plugged in on and charging inverter turned off splain that one. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : neil

just out of curiosity 0.05v doesnt seem like a big drop. of course im ignorant and trying to learn here. but im wondering how the 0.05v drop relates to the 1.0-1.5v drop were seeing across the line. is it amplified somehow otherwise wouldnt the main source of the drop be elsewhere thanks for your help! neil on tue 14 mar 2006 204459 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote ok i couldnt find the wiper motor or the brake line at the master cylinder. but i did find a bolt that connected the wiper fluid reservoir to the body. i assumed that would be a body ground. and i tested it with your other test and it registered over 12v with the red on positive and black on the bolt. so using that i put the vm on the negative post and the bolt turned on the heater fan and headlights. with the vm at the 2000 mv setting it read 051. ok you have a .05 voltage drop between the battery negative and the body ground. not good. fix this first. clean the connection between the battery neg and the body or just add a new body ground. use minimum #6 wire. on tue 14 mar 2006 012123 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote ok i stopped at the auto parts store and asked the guy where a ground would be. he suggested the metal that the alternator is attached to. i tested it with your test and got 12.9v so thats a good ground doing the test you suggested earlier i placed the black on the negative post and the red on the ground and turned on the heater full blast and turned on the lights. with the vm on the 2000 mv setting it read 007. ok now we are getting somewhere but that is to the engine ground. you need to do the same test to the chassis ground. use the ground strap on the wiper motor or even the steel brake line at the master cyl as body ground and either the engine ground or the battery negativepreferred and run the test again. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : neil

the interesting thing is that they *almost* fixed the problem by swapping parts. each time they got a slight increase in voltage afterwards the service manager said that it was probably because the new parts had less resistance than the older parts. the older parts were fine and after they fixed the problem they put the old parts back on and everything worked fine. but they almost fixed it by swapping parts. which means that once those parts had gotten a little old and had more resistance the problem would have just resurfaced. neil wrote reminds me of something that happened several months ago with my other car the gmc jimmy. car died on me while driving and i couldnt start it again. towed it into the shop and they couldnt find what was wrong with it. said that there wasnt enough voltage going to the starter but they couldnt see why. so they started changing parts. they changed one part and the guy told me well were getting more voltage but its still not enough. were going to try the next one in the line. i said that it didnt make sense that two components would go out simultaneously. he said they were going to try it. so they replaced the next component. and they got a little more voltage but still not enough. so then the owner of the shop said hed have it towed to his other shop where they have more experienced mechanics. those guys looked at it and found the problem in less than an hour there was an ignition cut-off switch in the line which had shorted out. they removed the switch and the problem was solved. but the important question is did they load test and replace the battery - matt .

From : max dodge

the one i believe youre referring to the one at a dealer said that the battery was three years old and should just be replaced that that was probably the problem. he didnt suggest any test. thats the one i referred to. i referred to him because he pinpointed the battery age/condition way out in front of anyone here. despite all else on here i still say that the best way to determine if the drop in port voltage is due to line drop or battery drop is to load test the battery. a load test is quick and easy; ringing out wiring can take time and be less than easy unless you happen to be a contortionist. because of previous experience with factory batteries i highly recommend doing the load test. next should you determine that the wiring is the problem itll be considerably more work than swapping a battery particularly if you wish to do a proper job of it. im not sure why the problem with testing the battery since you determined that the port had a voltage drop by plugging in the inverter the first time. im sure the factory design didnt allow a large drop to 10.5 volts with the minimal load your inverter poses. as to all the technical stuff about the battery and state of charge a cummins ram with three year old batteries starts just fine and runs well. grid heater cycles nicely and all works according to design. swap in a set of new batteries and the difference is quite noticable despite the old batteries working just fine. engine spins up on start much more easily voltage drop on grid heater operation was less drop and at a higher voltage 14.5 to 11.5 prior to swap 15 to 12.5 after new batteries. now im sure that there is some line drop in your system on that port. but if the battery is less than optimum youll get the effects of that line drop much more readily. you can certainly upgrade that part of the vehicle but at three years old that battery is coming out of that vehicle sooner than later. people have mentioned economics my thought is the battery is the basis and far more important part of your electrical system. id rather spend money making everything work better and then spend spare cash on an upgrade later when its affordable. a failed power port wont let you sit along the road a failed battery will. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author so either he can do a two minute test and find out if the battery is the problem which has been suggested by the only tech to actually be near the vehicle or he can rewire the vehicle to the port gets more power. actually the only techs to be near the vehicle were service managers at two service stations both of which said they had no device to test the voltage at the power outlet. the one i believe youre referring to the one at a dealer said that the battery was three years old and should just be replaced that that was probably the problem. he didnt suggest any test. the other one suggested i buy a capacitor to add to the rear outlet like people do when they want to run high-powered stereo equipment. neil a battery load test is next to free and a battery is about $60. rewiring the port so it carries proper voltage at all times.... well thats $60 an hour at least and would likely take 2-4 hours. i think the battery load test is not only inexpensive but warranted given the age and manufacture of the battery. but i think weve covered that ground because as much as youd like to deny it the above info was taken into account when i gave my recommendation. argue amongst yourselves. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote youre cherry-picking your information again and understandably coming up with wrong conclusions. the observed problem is occurring both *with* *engine* *running* and with engine not running. wrong. from the original post when the engine is running the inverter works fine; when the engine is running the inverter works fine. but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. when the engine is off the inverter shuts down. not hard to figure out really..... you just proved my point about cherry-picking waht you want to take into account that means choosing to observe certain infirmation but ignore other just as important to support your pre-made conclusion. whats the info. that you are choosing to ignore this that the op also posted and i included it in my previous post that you just repsonded to so its not like you had to look for it - you had to intentionally disregard it neil posted this **rear power outlet engine on ---------------------------------- **outlet alone 13.5 **with inverter alone 13.4 **wit

From : max dodge

desk jobs then youd be right. but as usual... none of these give you field experience in troubleshooting 12v neg ground systems. as such youd do well to stick to what you know which obviously isnt automotive electrical. i could wave my credentials around as well but the only one that is important is 20 years of dealing with the exact problem this gentleman seems to be having. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote oh only several and making a steady living as a technical writer. amazing eh! not really considering the obvious lack of experience out in the field. i figured there was a better than even chance that youd be driving a desk rather than turning wrenches for a living. heh! if you consider over 20 years of circuit design including designing and prototyping means building by hand *battery* *charger* and *regulator* circuits pioneering developments in the design of electronics for diagnostics in the field of doppler blood flow designing robot arm hand controllers for the space station electical design lead for titan missiles and designing fixtures for supporting navy shipboard equipment for shock testing shocked by dynamite as desk jobs then youd be right. but as usual... hey - do you know what litz wire is i didnt think so without your doing a google search. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : tbone

the problem is max that you are the only one that thinks you know better. the rest of us know you to be the fool you are especially in this as well as the dc thread. have you got a rebuttal to my facts yet if not crawl back under the rock and hit the net. btw all that you deny is readily available from dcxs own site. lol i replied to both of your silly responses go look it up. most of your facts dont have a damn thing to do with the takeover since they are all from around 2003 and up and the takeover happened in 98. dcxs own biased web site also makes it clear that all stockholders meeting happen in germany. so much for a merger of equals lol!!! -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : bill putney

max dodge wrote once youve got everybody fooled on that score youve got it made. maybe you all ought to go back whence you came since your tactic of trying to fool at least three of us whove had more experience in the field that you book types isnt working. ok - we see that now youve developed multiple personalities because youre the only one being fooled. not the first time ive run into a person who is jealous of college boys even if said college boys have the practical experience too. i find that truly competent mechanics dont have diploma envy and can hold their own in any technical discussion. oh and take tbone with you. then yall can have fun foolin each other because its not working on those of us who know better. so which one of your personalities typed that bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : neil

im not sure why the problem with testing the battery since you determined that the port had a voltage drop by plugging in the inverter the first time. im sure the factory design didnt allow a large drop to 10.5 volts with the minimal load your inverter poses. originally the advice i received here as well as that from the dealer service rep were discussing was just to replace the battery. in my original post i said that while i dont rule out it needing a new battery i was asking if it could be anything else. hence this discussion. as to all the technical stuff about the battery and state of charge a cummins ram with three year old batteries starts just fine and runs well. grid heater cycles nicely and all works according to design. swap in a set of new batteries and the difference is quite noticable despite the old batteries working just fine. engine spins up on start much more easily voltage drop on grid heater operation was less drop and at a higher voltage 14.5 to 11.5 prior to swap 15 to 12.5 after new batteries. im pretty ignorant about these things. but it seems to me that dropping from 15 to 12.5 is a huge drop though maybe im wrong. if youre dropping that much then once the battery gets old again youll be back to where you were. but as you note swapping out the battery is cheaper than rewiring. now im sure that there is some line drop in your system on that port. but if the battery is less than optimum youll get the effects of that line drop much more readily. you can certainly upgrade that part of the vehicle but at three years old that battery is coming out of that vehicle sooner than later. people have mentioned economics my thought is the battery is the basis and far more important part of your electrical system. id rather spend money making everything work better and then spend spare cash on an upgrade later when its affordable. yes agreed. the issue from my perspective is id rather get to the source of the problem rather than replace the battery which may resolve it enough for the inverter to work only to have the inverter not work again once the battery gets a little old. if it turns out that a complete rewire is necessary then that would be something to consider save on cost for short-term resolution. but at this point thats not clear. it may not require a complete rewire. neil -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author so either he can do a two minute test and find out if the battery is the problem which has been suggested by the only tech to actually be near the vehicle or he can rewire the vehicle to the port gets more power. actually the only techs to be near the vehicle were service managers at two service stations both of which said they had no device to test the voltage at the power outlet. the one i believe youre referring to the one at a dealer said that the battery was three years old and should just be replaced that that was probably the problem. he didnt suggest any test. the other one suggested i buy a capacitor to add to the rear outlet like people do when they want to run high-powered stereo equipment. neil a battery load test is next to free and a battery is about $60. rewiring the port so it carries proper voltage at all times.... well thats $60 an hour at least and would likely take 2-4 hours. i think the battery load test is not only inexpensive but warranted given the age and manufacture of the battery. but i think weve covered that ground because as much as youd like to deny it the above info was taken into account when i gave my recommendation. argue amongst yourselves. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote youre cherry-picking your information again and understandably coming up with wrong conclusions. the observed problem is occurring both *with* *engine* *running* and with engine not running. wrong. from the original post when the engine is running the inverter works fine; when the engine is running the inverter works fine. but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. when the engine is off the inverter shuts down. not hard to figure out really..... you just proved my point about cherry-picking waht you want to take into account that means choosing to observe certain infirmation but ignore other just as important to support your pre-made conclusion. whats the info. that you are choosing to ignore this that the op also posted and i included it in my previous post that you just repsonded to so its not like you had to look for it - you had to intentionally disregard it neil posted this **rear power outlet engi

From : tbone

sorry max but you resort to such childish actions when you get your ass kicked as you did by most of the posters in this thread not just me. i find it funny that you keep thumping your chest claiming your the only one with 20 years of experience and then come out with shit like an alternator will produce full voltage at any rpm hahahahahahahaha. i at least can explain my statement and even if you dont like it or cant understand it it doesnt make it wrong and the only one whining about it is you. yours otoh is complete bs and in no way be backed up because it as usual for you is completely wrong. talk about posting style 20 years lol!!! -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving lol is this all you got of course it is. its all i need. your statement was so stupid as to be the epitome of your entire posting style. tbone sez...... no it would not. it would have power but it would still not be powered. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author lol is this all you got of course it is. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving tbone sez...... no it would not. it would have power but it would still not be powered. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author no it would not. it would have power but it would still not be powered. ahahahaahahahah. and you say i dont know electricity........ that is because you dont and just about every post you put in here proves it jackass...... already with the name calling... shows the validity of your argument. has power but isnt powered..... good one....... and if you understood .... oh never mind... it is too far beyond you. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving tbone wrote tbone wrote reaching into the socket as you suggest would be pointless as with no load their will always be battery voltage if the socket is powered. the drop comes from current draw which will only happen if the load is connected and then there is no reaching into the socket. you could tag the connectors to the socket but that is probably more of a pita then they are willing to do for free. never say always. if a wire is broken there may well be zero voltage. i guess you missed the part where i said if the socket is powered. if a wire was broken then the socket would not be powered. it would if the broken wire was the ground wire. - no it would not. it would have power but it would still not be powered. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : steve

bill putney wrote hey - do you know what litz wire is yeah a pain in the a$$ to work with. ;- .

From : tbone

im not sure why the problem with testing the battery since you determined that the port had a voltage drop by plugging in the inverter the first time. im sure the factory design didnt allow a large drop to 10.5 volts with the minimal load your inverter poses. originally the advice i received here as well as that from the dealer service rep were discussing was just to replace the battery. in my original post i said that while i dont rule out it needing a new battery i was asking if it could be anything else. hence this discussion. it is something else. dc likes to save money where it can and they probably didnt expect something that can draw 11+ amps and be sensitive to voltage drops to be plugged into that outlet and based the wire size on how warm they will get at full rated current not on voltage drop. while there is a slight chance that replacing the battery will correct the problem it will be a temporary solution. there could also be a voltage drop caused by a bad chassis to body ground but that is probably only adding to the undersized wires. as to all the technical stuff about the battery and state of charge a cummins ram with three year old batteries starts just fine and runs well. grid heater cycles nicely and all works according to design. swap in a set of new batteries and the difference is quite noticable despite the old batteries working just fine. engine spins up on start much more easily voltage drop on grid heater operation was less drop and at a higher voltage 14.5 to 11.5 prior to swap 15 to 12.5 after new batteries. im pretty ignorant about these things. but it seems to me that dropping from 15 to 12.5 is a huge drop though maybe im wrong. if youre dropping that much then once the battery gets old again youll be back to where you were. but as you note swapping out the battery is cheaper than rewiring. you are completely correct in your assements. the drop is huge but is expected and like i said above dc was not worried about the voltage drop here either. they just made sure that the super high current drawing grid heater would get enough current to function and that the wires would not burn up and thats what they went with. by doing that they save money on both the wire and the installation as heavier wire is more expensive and more difficult to work with. what max does show however is his willingness to waste resources and money due to paranoia. as they say if it aint broke dont fix it and if the engine was cranking and operating properly as claimed by him then there was no valid reason to replace the batteries other than paranoia. now im sure that there is some line drop in your system on that port. but if the battery is less than optimum youll get the effects of that line drop much more readily. you can certainly upgrade that part of the vehicle but at three years old that battery is coming out of that vehicle sooner than later. people have mentioned economics my thought is the battery is the basis and far more important part of your electrical system. id rather spend money making everything work better and then spend spare cash on an upgrade later when its affordable. yes agreed. the issue from my perspective is id rather get to the source of the problem rather than replace the battery which may resolve it enough for the inverter to work only to have the inverter not work again once the battery gets a little old. if it turns out that a complete rewire is necessary then that would be something to consider save on cost for short-term resolution. but at this point thats not clear. it may not require a complete rewire. you are looking at it from the correct perspective and hopefully learned a little about electrical tracing as well. the problem is in the wiring and rewiring the front outlet is really not that big of a deal and just about anyone that has installed a car stereo could do it. good luck with whatever decision you make. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : bill putney

matt whiting wrote bill putney wrote hey - do you know what litz wire is i didnt think so without your doing a google search. bill im an ee and i dont know. care to tell us matt it is stranded wire with each strand individually insulated typically by a thin layer of varnish. it would be used in high frequency high current circuits to counter the effects of skin effect. skin effect is the concentration of high frequency current at the surface of a single conductor i.e. the core of the conductor conducts very little with the result that due to the effective reduction in cross-sectional area the real resistance of the conductor for high frequencies is much greater than it is for low frequencies the conductor becomes an effective low pass filter. by individually insulating each small conductor of a stranded wire the skin depth is close to the radius full depth/cross-section of each individual conductor and you gain back pretty much the complete current capacity of the bundle even at high frequencies. there is a formula for skin depth over frequency so if a system operates up to a known frequency the strands are sized accordingly. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : mike romain

i have serviced a lot of vehicles that used mobile equipment needing the power outlet or cigarette lighter plug. some sneaky ones gave symptoms like yours. they would work when the engine ran and the alternator was pumping out its 14+ volts but die fast with the engine off. i some of these cases well several over the years it was just a crappy push on clip connector on the back of the lighter socket. with full power in the system the bad connection would arc and work with the lower power it wouldnt pass enough voltage to take the 10a turn on power surge needed by these systems. just a thought for you. it could just be an easy loose connection fix. mike 86/00 cj7 laredo 33x9.5 bfg muds glass nose to tail in 00 88 cherokee 235 bfg ats canadian off road trips photos non members can still view! jan/06 http//www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.htmlid=2115147590 more off road album links at bottom of the view page neil wrote im not sure why the problem with testing the battery since you determined that the port had a voltage drop by plugging in the inverter the first time. im sure the factory design didnt allow a large drop to 10.5 volts with the minimal load your inverter poses. originally the advice i received here as well as that from the dealer service rep were discussing was just to replace the battery. in my original post i said that while i dont rule out it needing a new battery i was asking if it could be anything else. hence this discussion. as to all the technical stuff about the battery and state of charge a cummins ram with three year old batteries starts just fine and runs well. grid heater cycles nicely and all works according to design. swap in a set of new batteries and the difference is quite noticable despite the old batteries working just fine. engine spins up on start much more easily voltage drop on grid heater operation was less drop and at a higher voltage 14.5 to 11.5 prior to swap 15 to 12.5 after new batteries. im pretty ignorant about these things. but it seems to me that dropping from 15 to 12.5 is a huge drop though maybe im wrong. if youre dropping that much then once the battery gets old again youll be back to where you were. but as you note swapping out the battery is cheaper than rewiring. now im sure that there is some line drop in your system on that port. but if the battery is less than optimum youll get the effects of that line drop much more readily. you can certainly upgrade that part of the vehicle but at three years old that battery is coming out of that vehicle sooner than later. people have mentioned economics my thought is the battery is the basis and far more important part of your electrical system. id rather spend money making everything work better and then spend spare cash on an upgrade later when its affordable. yes agreed. the issue from my perspective is id rather get to the source of the problem rather than replace the battery which may resolve it enough for the inverter to work only to have the inverter not work again once the battery gets a little old. if it turns out that a complete rewire is necessary then that would be something to consider save on cost for short-term resolution. but at this point thats not clear. it may not require a complete rewire. neil -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author so either he can do a two minute test and find out if the battery is the problem which has been suggested by the only tech to actually be near the vehicle or he can rewire the vehicle to the port gets more power. actually the only techs to be near the vehicle were service managers at two service stations both of which said they had no device to test the voltage at the power outlet. the one i believe youre referring to the one at a dealer said that the battery was three years old and should just be replaced that that was probably the problem. he didnt suggest any test. the other one suggested i buy a capacitor to add to the rear outlet like people do when they want to run high-powered stereo equipment. neil a battery load test is next to free and a battery is about $60. rewiring the port so it carries proper voltage at all times.... well thats $60 an hour at least and would likely take 2-4 hours. i think the battery load test is not only inexpensive but warranted given the age and manufacture of the battery. but i think weve covered that ground because as much as youd like to deny it the above info was taken into account when i gave my recommendation. argue amongst yourselves. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote youre cherry-picking your information again and understandably coming up with wrong conclusions. the

From : steve

bill putney wrote max dodge wrote it would be neither know*s* no it would be exactly as i wrote it since both are acceptable. thats not how it works. ever take an english class oh only several and making a steady living as a technical writer. amazing eh! and of course yourre right. when determining what plurality to apply to the verb you look at the plurality of the implied subject. in the sentence neither knows the answer the implied subject is person as in neither person knows the answer. the implied subject is singular so the verb should also be singular or knows in this case. had the sentence been both know the answer the implied subject is the plural persons or people as in both people know the answer so in that case know is the correct verb. qed. .

From : steve

neil wrote im pretty ignorant about these things. but it seems to me that dropping from 15 to 12.5 is a huge drop though maybe im wrong. if youre dropping that much then once the battery gets old again youll be back to where you were. but as you note swapping out the battery is cheaper than rewiring. if youre talking about reading 15 volts with the engine running and only 12.5 with it off thats not a huge drop. its just the characteristic of a lead-acid battery. when the engine is running the operating voltage must be high enough to charge the battery. a lead-acid battery fully charged will read about 12.4-12.5 volts at rest. even after a significant amount of discharge it will still only be down to about 12 volts. by the time its showing 11 volts at rest its essentially dead. now if you want to re-charge it you cannot do so simply by connecting it to a 12.5 volt source. in order to cause the chemistry of the battery to work in reverse and convert electrical energy into stored chemical energy you have to exceed the threshold charging voltage which is around 13.8 to 14.0 volts. .

From : tbone

desk jobs then youd be right. but as usual... none of these give you field experience in troubleshooting 12v neg ground systems. as such youd do well to stick to what you know which obviously isnt automotive electrical. lol you really should follow your own advice here maxi. mr 20 year experience that doesnt even know how to test for a bad ground or what a voltage drop is. i could wave my credentials around as well but the only one that is important is 20 years of dealing with the exact problem this gentleman seems to be having. and in 20 years you still dont know what in the hell you are doing. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

once youve got everybody fooled on that score youve got it made. maybe you all ought to go back whence you came since your tactic of trying to fool at least three of us whove had more experience in the field that you book types isnt working. oh and take tbone with you. then yall can have fun foolin each other because its not working on those of us who know better. the problem is max that you are the only one that thinks you know better. the rest of us know you to be the fool you are especially in this as well as the dc thread. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : max dodge

the problem is max that you are the only one that thinks you know better. the rest of us know you to be the fool you are especially in this as well as the dc thread. have you got a rebuttal to my facts yet if not crawl back under the rock and hit the net. btw all that you deny is readily available from dcxs own site. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author once youve got everybody fooled on that score youve got it made. maybe you all ought to go back whence you came since your tactic of trying to fool at least three of us whove had more experience in the field that you book types isnt working. oh and take tbone with you. then yall can have fun foolin each other because its not working on those of us who know better. the problem is max that you are the only one that thinks you know better. the rest of us know you to be the fool you are especially in this as well as the dc thread. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : max dodge

originally the advice i received here as well as that from the dealer service rep were discussing was just to replace the battery. in my original post i said that while i dont rule out it needing a new battery i was asking if it could be anything else. hence this discussion. well id say you are faced with two issues and its probably a good idea to remedy both if you have time and resources. im pretty ignorant about these things. but it seems to me that dropping from 15 to 12.5 is a huge drop though maybe im wrong. if youre dropping that much then once the battery gets old again youll be back to where you were. but as you note swapping out the battery is cheaper than rewiring. in the case of a cummins ram the grid heater cycles numerous times at start up. it puts a large load the system so the drop is quite noticable. yes agreed. the issue from my perspective is id rather get to the source of the problem rather than replace the battery which may resolve it enough for the inverter to work only to have the inverter not work again once the battery gets a little old. if it turns out that a complete rewire is necessary then that would be something to consider save on cost for short-term resolution. but at this point thats not clear. it may not require a complete rewire. your last line is precisely why ive advocated a load test of the battery. in my area such a test is quick and easy and usually free. its a very easy way of determining if the battery is up to the task at hand. i think your example of parts replacment = a little more voltage applies very well here. you could replace the wiring to the port and get a bit more voltage only to lose it again as the battery continues to age. on the other hand if you load test the battery and it passes then youve pinpointed the wiring as the culprit and you can replace only the wiring. in my opinion itll cost a bit more to rewire the port since doing it correctly may involve purchasing a relay and a switch as well as running the wire so as to be both cosmetically and practically done. however if you do it yourself the cost would be less out of pocket and more in time spent. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author .

From : max dodge

what max does show however is his willingness to waste resources and money due to paranoia. as they say if it aint broke dont fix it and if the engine was cranking and operating properly as claimed by him then there was no valid reason to replace the batteries other than paranoia. paranoia ok lets look at the facts. the truck requires 1500cca and weighs 7000lbs. so if i use the criteria of dead battery to judge when i should replace them im likely to find myself sitting somewhere. keep in mind on a cummins ram im drawing on the batteries to run the grid heater then im cranking the engine. so if i wait till the cranking speed seems too slow ill be dead in the water. now you might say no problem just call for a jump start. yup thats a great idea for most vehicles. on a truck with two batteries you would be hard pressed to find anything that will jump start it. another diesel pickup would work but we typically dont travel in packs. so id have to call for someone to tow my truck. as mentioned it weighs 7000lbs. not many people have something that will tow it. call aaa sure thats great only the fine print i saw said they wouldnt pay for towing anything over 8000gvwr.... my truck is at 8800. so if i want to get towed home im not only waiting for the tow truck but im paying him a premium price depending on where i am and where i wish to go. and then im buying a set of batteries. seemed cheaper to simply buy two new batteries after load testing and noting they were borderline. $130 beats the hell out of stranded in the cold waiting for a tow truck that will cost $100+ just to show up not to mention cost to go somewhere. btw tbone your definition of paranoia is most well trained technicians definition of preventive maintenance. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author im not sure why the problem with testing the battery since you determined that the port had a voltage drop by plugging in the inverter the first time. im sure the factory design didnt allow a large drop to 10.5 volts with the minimal load your inverter poses. originally the advice i received here as well as that from the dealer service rep were discussing was just to replace the battery. in my original post i said that while i dont rule out it needing a new battery i was asking if it could be anything else. hence this discussion. it is something else. dc likes to save money where it can and they probably didnt expect something that can draw 11+ amps and be sensitive to voltage drops to be plugged into that outlet and based the wire size on how warm they will get at full rated current not on voltage drop. while there is a slight chance that replacing the battery will correct the problem it will be a temporary solution. there could also be a voltage drop caused by a bad chassis to body ground but that is probably only adding to the undersized wires. as to all the technical stuff about the battery and state of charge a cummins ram with three year old batteries starts just fine and runs well. grid heater cycles nicely and all works according to design. swap in a set of new batteries and the difference is quite noticable despite the old batteries working just fine. engine spins up on start much more easily voltage drop on grid heater operation was less drop and at a higher voltage 14.5 to 11.5 prior to swap 15 to 12.5 after new batteries. im pretty ignorant about these things. but it seems to me that dropping from 15 to 12.5 is a huge drop though maybe im wrong. if youre dropping that much then once the battery gets old again youll be back to where you were. but as you note swapping out the battery is cheaper than rewiring. you are completely correct in your assements. the drop is huge but is expected and like i said above dc was not worried about the voltage drop here either. they just made sure that the super high current drawing grid heater would get enough current to function and that the wires would not burn up and thats what they went with. by doing that they save money on both the wire and the installation as heavier wire is more expensive and more difficult to work with. what max does show however is his willingness to waste resources and money due to paranoia. as they say if it aint broke dont fix it and if the engine was cranking and operating properly as claimed by him then there was no valid reason to replace the batteries other than paranoia. now im sure that there is some line drop in your system on that port. but if the battery is less than optimum youll get the effects of that line drop much more readily. you can certainly upgrade that part of the vehicle but at three years old that battery is coming out of that vehicle sooner than later. people have mentioned economics my thought is the battery is the basis and

From : tbone

what max does show however is his willingness to waste resources and money due to paranoia. as they say if it aint broke dont fix it and if the engine was cranking and operating properly as claimed by him then there was no valid reason to replace the batteries other than paranoia. paranoia ok lets look at the facts. the truck requires 1500cca and weighs 7000lbs. so if i use the criteria of dead battery to judge when i should replace them im likely to find myself sitting somewhere. keep in mind on a cummins ram im drawing on the batteries to run the grid heater then im cranking the engine. so if i wait till the cranking speed seems too slow ill be dead in the water. if the cranking speed seems slow then you replace them. why would you wait until the winter to ge stuck your words were that everything was operating normally. now you might say no problem just call for a jump start. yup thats a great idea for most vehicles. on a truck with two batteries you would be hard pressed to find anything that will jump start it. another diesel pickup would work but we typically dont travel in packs. so id have to call for someone to tow my truck. and what do you thing will show up.. i bet it will be another truck with the capability to jump start yours. as mentioned it weighs 7000lbs. not many people have something that will tow it. call aaa sure thats great only the fine print i saw said they wouldnt pay for towing anything over 8000gvwr.... my truck is at 8800. so if i want to get towed home im not only waiting for the tow truck but im paying him a premium price depending on where i am and where i wish to go. and then im buying a set of batteries. again that is if you wait until the batteries fail. not only do you not wait that long you replace them years before it is needed. seemed cheaper to simply buy two new batteries after load testing and noting they were borderline. $130 beats the hell out of stranded in the cold waiting for a tow truck that will cost $100+ just to show up not to mention cost to go somewhere. i guess it also shows the stupidity of using such a vehicle as your personal transportation. with aaa the truck will show up for free and jump start you. btw tbone your definition of paranoia is most well trained technicians definition of preventive maintenance. preventive maintenance is also used to cover for paranoia and replacing the wrong parts. i agree that if a battery truly fails a valid load test it should be replaced even if it still sorta works but if the battery simply doesnt show full capability due to age but is still within spec then you are just wasting money and resources. your initial example did not indicate potential failure simply slightly less performance due to age. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : matt whiting

neil wrote the interesting thing is that they *almost* fixed the problem by swapping parts. each time they got a slight increase in voltage afterwards the service manager said that it was probably because the new parts had less resistance than the older parts. the older parts were fine and after they fixed the problem they put the old parts back on and everything worked fine. but they almost fixed it by swapping parts. which means that once those parts had gotten a little old and had more resistance the problem would have just resurfaced. sure most parts degrade with time but the old parts might have lasted 10 more years and 100000 miles. it is nuts to replace working parts in lieu of proper troubleshooting. matt .

From : matt whiting

ken weitzel wrote matt whiting wrote bill putney wrote hey - do you know what litz wire is i didnt think so without your doing a google search. bill im an ee and i dont know. care to tell us matt hi... you must be one of the young ones still a little wet behind the ears comparatively speaking of course ken yes i just missed the slide rule era by one year at penn state. matt .

From : matt whiting

max dodge wrote no you havent. it could be a failure in the inverter or even possibly the laptop charger or the laptop battery may be failing and drawing way too much current while charging. all you have ruled out with a load test of the battery is ... drum roll please ... the battery. - yeah id agree only...... in the op neil describes the operation of the inverter and accessories as proper and within normal parameters when used in other vehicles and when the engine is running in the present vehicle. yes he did but if one of those components was slowly failing it may have been borderline enough to work in one vehicle and not another simply due to the normal variation between vehicles. matt .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on wed 15 mar 2006 143549 gmt tbone tbonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote sorry max but you resort to such childish actions when you get your ass kicked as you did by most of the posters in this thread not just me. i find it funny that you keep thumping your chest claiming your the only one with 20 years of experience and then come out with shit like an alternator will produce full voltage at any rpm hahahahahahahaha. i at least can explain my statement and even if you dont like it or cant understand it it doesnt make it wrong and the only one whining about it is you. yours otoh is complete bs and in no way be backed up because it as usual for you is completely wrong. talk about posting style 20 years lol!!! 20 years hes just a pup. i was wrenching when he was born by the sounds of it. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : matt whiting

max dodge wrote originally the advice i received here as well as that from the dealer service rep were discussing was just to replace the battery. in my original post i said that while i dont rule out it needing a new battery i was asking if it could be anything else. hence this discussion. well id say you are faced with two issues and its probably a good idea to remedy both if you have time and resources. im pretty ignorant about these things. but it seems to me that dropping from 15 to 12.5 is a huge drop though maybe im wrong. if youre dropping that much then once the battery gets old again youll be back to where you were. but as you note swapping out the battery is cheaper than rewiring. in the case of a cummins ram the grid heater cycles numerous times at start up. it puts a large load the system so the drop is quite noticable. yes agreed. the issue from my perspective is id rather get to the source of the problem rather than replace the battery which may resolve it enough for the inverter to work only to have the inverter not work again once the battery gets a little old. if it turns out that a complete rewire is necessary then that would be something to consider save on cost for short-term resolution. but at this point thats not clear. it may not require a complete rewire. your last line is precisely why ive advocated a load test of the battery. in my area such a test is quick and easy and usually free. its a very easy way of determining if the battery is up to the task at hand. i think your example of parts replacment = a little more voltage applies very well here. you could replace the wiring to the port and get a bit more voltage only to lose it again as the battery continues to age. on the other hand if you load test the battery and it passes then youve pinpointed the wiring as the culprit and you can replace only the wiring. no you havent. it could be a failure in the inverter or even possibly the laptop charger or the laptop battery may be failing and drawing way too much current while charging. all you have ruled out with a load test of the battery is ... drum roll please ... the battery. - matt .

From : max dodge

if the cranking speed seems slow then you replace them. why would you wait until the winter to ge stuck your words were that everything was operating normally. it was. but given the age of the batteries i figured a load test was in order. and what do you thing will show up.. i bet it will be another truck with the capability to jump start yours. yeah and my lack of paranoia would have cost me for a jumpstart and new batteries. again that is if you wait until the batteries fail. not only do you not wait that long you replace them years before it is needed. really so if i know they are factory batteries and i know those start a downhill spiral at three years and i replaced them at four years whats paranoid about that i mean if im to believe your incessant rants about how mopar puts substandard items in their vehicles i should have replaced the batteries at 24 months correct preventive maintenance is also used to cover for paranoia and replacing the wrong parts. i agree that if a battery truly fails a valid load test it should be replaced even if it still sorta works but if the battery simply doesnt show full capability due to age but is still within spec then you are just wasting money and resources. your initial example did not indicate potential failure simply slightly less performance due to age. a 36 month battery goes 48 months and there isnt any potential for failure oh thats right just because it has power doesnt mean its actually powered. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author what max does show however is his willingness to waste resources and money due to paranoia. as they say if it aint broke dont fix it and if the engine was cranking and operating properly as claimed by him then there was no valid reason to replace the batteries other than paranoia. paranoia ok lets look at the facts. the truck requires 1500cca and weighs 7000lbs. so if i use the criteria of dead battery to judge when i should replace them im likely to find myself sitting somewhere. keep in mind on a cummins ram im drawing on the batteries to run the grid heater then im cranking the engine. so if i wait till the cranking speed seems too slow ill be dead in the water. if the cranking speed seems slow then you replace them. why would you wait until the winter to ge stuck your words were that everything was operating normally. now you might say no problem just call for a jump start. yup thats a great idea for most vehicles. on a truck with two batteries you would be hard pressed to find anything that will jump start it. another diesel pickup would work but we typically dont travel in packs. so id have to call for someone to tow my truck. and what do you thing will show up.. i bet it will be another truck with the capability to jump start yours. as mentioned it weighs 7000lbs. not many people have something that will tow it. call aaa sure thats great only the fine print i saw said they wouldnt pay for towing anything over 8000gvwr.... my truck is at 8800. so if i want to get towed home im not only waiting for the tow truck but im paying him a premium price depending on where i am and where i wish to go. and then im buying a set of batteries. again that is if you wait until the batteries fail. not only do you not wait that long you replace them years before it is needed. seemed cheaper to simply buy two new batteries after load testing and noting they were borderline. $130 beats the hell out of stranded in the cold waiting for a tow truck that will cost $100+ just to show up not to mention cost to go somewhere. i guess it also shows the stupidity of using such a vehicle as your personal transportation. with aaa the truck will show up for free and jump start you. btw tbone your definition of paranoia is most well trained technicians definition of preventive maintenance. preventive maintenance is also used to cover for paranoia and replacing the wrong parts. i agree that if a battery truly fails a valid load test it should be replaced even if it still sorta works but if the battery simply doesnt show full capability due to age but is still within spec then you are just wasting money and resources. your initial example did not indicate potential failure simply slightly less performance due to age. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : max dodge

i believa all that you claim since iirc you were the one that suggested a load test using accessories and the plugged in equipment. its still a load test that needs to be done first. that facts are all there in the first post. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author on fri 17 mar 2006 013515 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote once youve got everybody fooled on that score youve got it made. maybe you all ought to go back whence you came since your tactic of trying to fool at least three of us whove had more experience in the field that you book types isnt working. oh and take tbone with you. then yall can have fun foolin each other because its not working on those of us who know better. first of all im not the book type ive been a licenced mechanic since 1971 and have made my living as a mechanic for many years. electrical diagnosis was one of my specialties and i did work for quite a few local shops who brought their problems to me because i could solve them.ten years of my career i was service manager as well as diagnostician spending a minimum of a few hours a day on the bench. i have also built and driven a relatively successful electric vehicle and have done board level diagnosis and repairs on computers. i am not an engineer nor do i play one on tv. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : max dodge

no you havent. it could be a failure in the inverter or even possibly the laptop charger or the laptop battery may be failing and drawing way too much current while charging. all you have ruled out with a load test of the battery is ... drum roll please ... the battery. - yeah id agree only...... in the op neil describes the operation of the inverter and accessories as proper and within normal parameters when used in other vehicles and when the engine is running in the present vehicle. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote originally the advice i received here as well as that from the dealer service rep were discussing was just to replace the battery. in my original post i said that while i dont rule out it needing a new battery i was asking if it could be anything else. hence this discussion. well id say you are faced with two issues and its probably a good idea to remedy both if you have time and resources. im pretty ignorant about these things. but it seems to me that dropping from 15 to 12.5 is a huge drop though maybe im wrong. if youre dropping that much then once the battery gets old again youll be back to where you were. but as you note swapping out the battery is cheaper than rewiring. in the case of a cummins ram the grid heater cycles numerous times at start up. it puts a large load the system so the drop is quite noticable. yes agreed. the issue from my perspective is id rather get to the source of the problem rather than replace the battery which may resolve it enough for the inverter to work only to have the inverter not work again once the battery gets a little old. if it turns out that a complete rewire is necessary then that would be something to consider save on cost for short-term resolution. but at this point thats not clear. it may not require a complete rewire. your last line is precisely why ive advocated a load test of the battery. in my area such a test is quick and easy and usually free. its a very easy way of determining if the battery is up to the task at hand. i think your example of parts replacment = a little more voltage applies very well here. you could replace the wiring to the port and get a bit more voltage only to lose it again as the battery continues to age. on the other hand if you load test the battery and it passes then youve pinpointed the wiring as the culprit and you can replace only the wiring. no you havent. it could be a failure in the inverter or even possibly the laptop charger or the laptop battery may be failing and drawing way too much current while charging. all you have ruled out with a load test of the battery is ... drum roll please ... the battery. - matt .

From : max dodge

yes he did but if one of those components was slowly failing it may have been borderline enough to work in one vehicle and not another simply due to the normal variation between vehicles. yup thats true. so now ya have to ask yourself... is it cheaper to load test an automotive battery next to no $$ or send a complex piece of electronic hardware to the repair shop losing not only $$ but having downtime as well possibly tying up other things -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote no you havent. it could be a failure in the inverter or even possibly the laptop charger or the laptop battery may be failing and drawing way too much current while charging. all you have ruled out with a load test of the battery is ... drum roll please ... the battery. - yeah id agree only...... in the op neil describes the operation of the inverter and accessories as proper and within normal parameters when used in other vehicles and when the engine is running in the present vehicle. yes he did but if one of those components was slowly failing it may have been borderline enough to work in one vehicle and not another simply due to the normal variation between vehicles. matt .

From : bill putney

max dodge wrote desk jobs then youd be right. but as usual... none of these give you field experience in troubleshooting 12v neg ground systems. as such youd do well to stick to what you know which obviously isnt automotive electrical. so - designing building by hand and troubleshooting in the field is less than troubleshooting in the field without the design and building in your judgement. that would go along with the rest of your logic. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on wed 15 mar 2006 115715 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote just out of curiosity 0.05v doesnt seem like a big drop. of course im ignorant and trying to learn here. but im wondering how the 0.05v drop relates to the 1.0-1.5v drop were seeing across the line. is it amplified somehow otherwise wouldnt the main source of the drop be elsewhere thanks for your help! neil the main source is elsewhere but fixing this one is simple and needs to be done anyway as it will just get worse - and is worse when headlights and rear defogger are on along with the heater fan or when you step on the brakes or blow the horn. you have .05 volt drop with something like 25 amps of load.make the load 50 amps and you have at least .1 volt drop. on tue 14 mar 2006 204459 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote ok i couldnt find the wiper motor or the brake line at the master cylinder. but i did find a bolt that connected the wiper fluid reservoir to the body. i assumed that would be a body ground. and i tested it with your other test and it registered over 12v with the red on positive and black on the bolt. so using that i put the vm on the negative post and the bolt turned on the heater fan and headlights. with the vm at the 2000 mv setting it read 051. ok you have a .05 voltage drop between the battery negative and the body ground. not good. fix this first. clean the connection between the battery neg and the body or just add a new body ground. use minimum #6 wire. on tue 14 mar 2006 012123 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote ok i stopped at the auto parts store and asked the guy where a ground would be. he suggested the metal that the alternator is attached to. i tested it with your test and got 12.9v so thats a good ground doing the test you suggested earlier i placed the black on the negative post and the red on the ground and turned on the heater full blast and turned on the lights. with the vm on the 2000 mv setting it read 007. ok now we are getting somewhere but that is to the engine ground. you need to do the same test to the chassis ground. use the ground strap on the wiper motor or even the steel brake line at the master cyl as body ground and either the engine ground or the battery negativepreferred and run the test again. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : max dodge

for crying out lowd max how do you think they arrived at the cranking amp rating not the published figure for the battery ive seen a bunch of batteries at many different cca figures so who cares last i checked you wouldnt go for a cca rating through the port would you so were back to a test that can be used in a comparitive manner. give it a rest already - youve had your butt kicked - admit it. by whom certainly not you. nor the bunch that despite their degrees keep leaving out facts from the original post. from what ive seen internet advice is worth about what ya pay for it. yet in the mix im the only one telling him to go get hands on testing instead of assuming the wires are substandard or that the battery is bad or good. so instead of asking him to believe what i say i advise that he go have diagnostic work done or do it himself. and the experts complain at that bit of advice. tough shit. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author on wed 15 mar 2006 132557 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote youre proving a high level of dishonesty on your part by repeating that lie numerous times. as was accurately pointed out several times by others the battery voltage was already tested and the inverter cuts off even with the alternator pumping the system well above battery voltage and measurements showing considerable drop in the wiring. voltage tesed yes load tested no. time to test the battery for load handling ability. for crying out lowd max how do you think they arrived at the cranking amp rating not the published figure for the battery give it a rest already - youve had your butt kicked - admit it. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on thu 16 mar 2006 002526 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote yes he did but if one of those components was slowly failing it may have been borderline enough to work in one vehicle and not another simply due to the normal variation between vehicles. yup thats true. so now ya have to ask yourself... is it cheaper to load test an automotive battery next to no $$ or send a complex piece of electronic hardware to the repair shop losing not only $$ but having downtime as well possibly tying up other things max if the op followed my instructions which he did the voltage of the battery under the load being experienced is verified. he checks the voltage at the load and at the source while under load. if the source voltage is within spec and the load voltage is not he has a circuit problem - and only a circuit problem. is the battery perfect we dont know. is it the problem no. if on the other hand the load voltage is below spec and the source battery voltage is also low we know he has a battery problem. if there is a significant difference between source and load voltage he also has a circuit problem. if he has a circuit problem which was confirmed by the tests the first thing he needs to do is find and fix the circuit problem. he has tested the body ground - and it has been found to be mediocre - but not serious. real easy to fix so lets get that out of the way first then chase down the rest of the problem. its not very efficient troubleshooting long distance particularly with the delays of usenet propogation factored in. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : bill putney

max dodge wrote desk jobs then youd be right. but as usual... none of these give you field experience in troubleshooting 12v neg ground systems... hey wait a minute. this is lauhgable. here are a few questions for you theyre pretty much rhetorical - oh - that means they are not intended to be answered but you might learn something by thinking about them - are the laws of physics different for *positive* ground systems answer - no - are there even any positive ground vehicles made nowadays not sure about that one but if any not very many *at* *all* - are the laws of physics different for the 24 volt negative ground industrial crane that i troubleshot last year answer - no. - are the laws of physics different for any other 24 volt or 48 volt vehicles answer - no - what about a piece of electronics that has positive and negative power supply voltages like your computer. is that considered positive ground or negative ground that one should confuse you pretty good for a while - do you know what a single-point ground is and does your car have one answers - no and no by you even making a statement like you did about a negative ground 12v system as if the laws of physics are different for them illustrates your lack of understanding. if a person understands designs and troubleshoots not only 12v neg. ground systems but understands designs and troubleshoots positive ground systems and bipolar voltage systems and 24 volt systems and 48 volt systems and a.c. voltage systems - does that make him less knowledgeable than someone who claims to troubleshoot only 12v neg. ground systems again - all rhetorical questions bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : max dodge

if the op followed my instructions which he did the voltage of the battery under the load being experienced is verified. he checks the voltage at the load and at the source while under load. if the source voltage is within spec and the load voltage is not he has a circuit problem - and only a circuit problem. is the battery perfect we dont know. is it the problem no. if on the other hand the load voltage is below spec and the source battery voltage is also low we know he has a battery problem. if there is a significant difference between source and load voltage he also has a circuit problem. iow perform a battery load test using the equipment at hand rather than one that tests only the battery. but... its still a load test which everyone claimed was either not necessary or cerainly not a first step. now you say its not only part of the process but you mention it in the first step. congrats thats exactly what i suggested only using an actual load tester instead of electronic equipment that was prone to shutting down. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author on thu 16 mar 2006 002526 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote yes he did but if one of those components was slowly failing it may have been borderline enough to work in one vehicle and not another simply due to the normal variation between vehicles. yup thats true. so now ya have to ask yourself... is it cheaper to load test an automotive battery next to no $$ or send a complex piece of electronic hardware to the repair shop losing not only $$ but having downtime as well possibly tying up other things max if the op followed my instructions which he did the voltage of the battery under the load being experienced is verified. he checks the voltage at the load and at the source while under load. if the source voltage is within spec and the load voltage is not he has a circuit problem - and only a circuit problem. is the battery perfect we dont know. is it the problem no. if on the other hand the load voltage is below spec and the source battery voltage is also low we know he has a battery problem. if there is a significant difference between source and load voltage he also has a circuit problem. if he has a circuit problem which was confirmed by the tests the first thing he needs to do is find and fix the circuit problem. he has tested the body ground - and it has been found to be mediocre - but not serious. real easy to fix so lets get that out of the way first then chase down the rest of the problem. its not very efficient troubleshooting long distance particularly with the delays of usenet propogation factored in. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : max dodge

by you even making a statement like you did about a negative ground 12v system as if the laws of physics are different for them illustrates your lack of understanding. never said the laws of physics were different. i did say that the procedures used by an experienced tech compared to the theoretical silliness proposed by the engineers here was a better way to do it and would be more thorough. the actual problem seems to be one of actually taking into account the facts given before any troubleshooting started. if a person understands designs and troubleshoots not only 12v neg. ground systems but understands designs and troubleshoots positive ground systems and bipolar voltage systems and 24 volt systems and 48 volt systems and a.c. voltage systems - does that make him less knowledgeable than someone who claims to troubleshoot only 12v neg. ground systems again - all rhetorical questions theory and book knowledge takes a backseat to actual experience in finding and fixing these problems. you suggested testing at the port to determine voltage. terrific and from a textbook thats logical. but when the complaint states that the equipment acts in a manner consistant with low voltage at the port its illogical to test the port for something you know its exhibiting. the first step is to test either the source or the equipment. well we know from what the op said that the equipment works fine in other vehicles and when the alternator is supplying voltage. that leaves one thing to test first..... the battery. and yet all your knowledge design theory and education didnt point directly at the battery. sadly it wasnt just you thus confirming my statements. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote desk jobs then youd be right. but as usual... none of these give you field experience in troubleshooting 12v neg ground systems... hey wait a minute. this is lauhgable. here are a few questions for you theyre pretty much rhetorical - oh - that means they are not intended to be answered but you might learn something by thinking about them - are the laws of physics different for *positive* ground systems answer - no - are there even any positive ground vehicles made nowadays not sure about that one but if any not very many *at* *all* - are the laws of physics different for the 24 volt negative ground industrial crane that i troubleshot last year answer - no. - are the laws of physics different for any other 24 volt or 48 volt vehicles answer - no - what about a piece of electronics that has positive and negative power supply voltages like your computer. is that considered positive ground or negative ground that one should confuse you pretty good for a while - do you know what a single-point ground is and does your car have one answers - no and no by you even making a statement like you did about a negative ground 12v system as if the laws of physics are different for them illustrates your lack of understanding. if a person understands designs and troubleshoots not only 12v neg. ground systems but understands designs and troubleshoots positive ground systems and bipolar voltage systems and 24 volt systems and 48 volt systems and a.c. voltage systems - does that make him less knowledgeable than someone who claims to troubleshoot only 12v neg. ground systems again - all rhetorical questions bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : neil

i looked at the cable connecting the battery negative and the body and it looks pretty clean -- no wear no corrosion etc. about replacing it it didnt seem straightforward to replace it though im sure it is; im just not seeing it. perhaps we could troubleshoot it to find the main source of the problem. then i may end up bringing it into a garage anyway to repair it unless its something i can do which if i do they could do this one as well. thanks for your help! neil on wed 15 mar 2006 115715 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote just out of curiosity 0.05v doesnt seem like a big drop. of course im ignorant and trying to learn here. but im wondering how the 0.05v drop relates to the 1.0-1.5v drop were seeing across the line. is it amplified somehow otherwise wouldnt the main source of the drop be elsewhere thanks for your help! neil the main source is elsewhere but fixing this one is simple and needs to be done anyway as it will just get worse - and is worse when headlights and rear defogger are on along with the heater fan or when you step on the brakes or blow the horn. you have .05 volt drop with something like 25 amps of load.make the load 50 amps and you have at least .1 volt drop. on tue 14 mar 2006 204459 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote ok i couldnt find the wiper motor or the brake line at the master cylinder. but i did find a bolt that connected the wiper fluid reservoir to the body. i assumed that would be a body ground. and i tested it with your other test and it registered over 12v with the red on positive and black on the bolt. so using that i put the vm on the negative post and the bolt turned on the heater fan and headlights. with the vm at the 2000 mv setting it read 051. ok you have a .05 voltage drop between the battery negative and the body ground. not good. fix this first. clean the connection between the battery neg and the body or just add a new body ground. use minimum #6 wire. on tue 14 mar 2006 012123 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote ok i stopped at the auto parts store and asked the guy where a ground would be. he suggested the metal that the alternator is attached to. i tested it with your test and got 12.9v so thats a good ground doing the test you suggested earlier i placed the black on the negative post and the red on the ground and turned on the heater full blast and turned on the lights. with the vm on the 2000 mv setting it read 007. ok now we are getting somewhere but that is to the engine ground. you need to do the same test to the chassis ground. use the ground strap on the wiper motor or even the steel brake line at the master cyl as body ground and either the engine ground or the battery negativepreferred and run the test again. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : bill putney

max dodge wrote by you even making a statement like you did about a negative ground 12v system as if the laws of physics are different for them illustrates your lack of understanding. never said the laws of physics were different. i did say that the procedures used by an experienced tech compared to the theoretical silliness proposed by the engineers here was a better way to do it and would be more thorough. the actual problem seems to be one of actually taking into account the facts given before any troubleshooting started. if a person understands designs and troubleshoots not only 12v neg. ground systems but understands designs and troubleshoots positive ground systems and bipolar voltage systems and 24 volt systems and 48 volt systems and a.c. voltage systems - does that make him less knowledgeable than someone who claims to troubleshoot only 12v neg. ground systems again - all rhetorical questions theory and book knowledge takes a backseat to actual experience in finding and fixing these problems. you suggested testing at the port to determine voltage. terrific and from a textbook thats logical. but when the complaint states that the equipment acts in a manner consistant with low voltage at the port its illogical to test the port for something you know its exhibiting. the first step is to test either the source or the equipment. well we know from what the op said that the equipment works fine in other vehicles and when the alternator is supplying voltage. that leaves one thing to test first..... the battery. and countless people have accurately told you that the battery voltage was already measured *and* reminded you that a running alternator will pull the voltage up to the charging voltage regardless of the condition of the battery with the exception of a shorted cell - i guess reminded is not an accurate word there since you apparently never were aware of that in the first place and refuse to acknowledge it or admit your initial error on that and other points. man - you *have* to be a liberal democrat. and yet all your knowledge design theory and education didnt point directly at the battery. sadly it wasnt just you thus confirming my statements. and you ignore the field experience. again to hear you prattle technical knowledge *plus* field experience is worse than field experience alone and even though you wont admit it you have demonstrated quite the opposite. oh - and tell us one more time how an alternator and regulator can provide fully regulated voltage with moderate load present whether mr. alternator is spinning at 500 or 100 or 30 or 10 or 2 rpm. no doubt you are one of these people that ive come across that would argue with someone that increasing electrical load does not affect the mechanical load torque requirements on an alternator. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : max dodge

and countless people have accurately told you that the battery voltage was already measured *and* reminded you that a running alternator will pull the voltage up to the charging voltage regardless of the condition of the battery with the exception of a shorted cell - i guess reminded is not an accurate word there since you apparently never were aware of that in the first place and refuse to acknowledge it or admit your initial error on that and other points. man - you *have* to be a liberal democrat. battery voltage isnt the issue drop in that voltage under load is. alternator is not the issue since the problem occurred while it was not a factor. my politics are not a factor in what im saying but liberals would tend to say that education beats experience where im saying exactly the opposite. and you ignore the field experience. again to hear you prattle technical knowledge *plus* field experience is worse than field experience alone and even though you wont admit it you have demonstrated quite the opposite. you havent demonstrated any real field experience save for a few examples like a crane last year. oh - and tell us one more time how an alternator and regulator can provide fully regulated voltage with moderate load present whether mr. alternator is spinning at 500 or 100 or 30 or 10 or 2 rpm. clearly you are taking this out of context as the implicastion was idle on up not below idle. this is just one example of your desperate grab for something to prove me wrong when any experienced tech knows vehicles dont run below idle. only in a textbook does lower than idle exist. no doubt you are one of these people that ive come across that would argue with someone that increasing electrical load does not affect the mechanical load torque requirements on an alternator. false. again another example of how desperate you are to prove me wrong. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote by you even making a statement like you did about a negative ground 12v system as if the laws of physics are different for them illustrates your lack of understanding. never said the laws of physics were different. i did say that the procedures used by an experienced tech compared to the theoretical silliness proposed by the engineers here was a better way to do it and would be more thorough. the actual problem seems to be one of actually taking into account the facts given before any troubleshooting started. if a person understands designs and troubleshoots not only 12v neg. ground systems but understands designs and troubleshoots positive ground systems and bipolar voltage systems and 24 volt systems and 48 volt systems and a.c. voltage systems - does that make him less knowledgeable than someone who claims to troubleshoot only 12v neg. ground systems again - all rhetorical questions theory and book knowledge takes a backseat to actual experience in finding and fixing these problems. you suggested testing at the port to determine voltage. terrific and from a textbook thats logical. but when the complaint states that the equipment acts in a manner consistant with low voltage at the port its illogical to test the port for something you know its exhibiting. the first step is to test either the source or the equipment. well we know from what the op said that the equipment works fine in other vehicles and when the alternator is supplying voltage. that leaves one thing to test first..... the battery. and countless people have accurately told you that the battery voltage was already measured *and* reminded you that a running alternator will pull the voltage up to the charging voltage regardless of the condition of the battery with the exception of a shorted cell - i guess reminded is not an accurate word there since you apparently never were aware of that in the first place and refuse to acknowledge it or admit your initial error on that and other points. man - you *have* to be a liberal democrat. and yet all your knowledge design theory and education didnt point directly at the battery. sadly it wasnt just you thus confirming my statements. and you ignore the field experience. again to hear you prattle technical knowledge *plus* field experience is worse than field experience alone and even though you wont admit it you have demonstrated quite the opposite. oh - and tell us one more time how an alternator and regulator can provide fully regulated voltage with moderate load present whether mr. alternator is spinning at 500 or 100 or 30 or 10 or 2 rpm. no doubt you are one of these people that ive come across that would argue with someone that increasing electrical load does not affect the mechanical load torque requirements on an alternator. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of t

From : steve

bill putney wrote steve wrote bill putney wrote hey - do you know what litz wire is yeah a pain in the a$$ to work with. ;- lol! yeah - each strand has to be individually stripped to terminate unless the insulation can be melted off in soldering. also expensive to manufacture. and of course you have to do all your terminating of each individual strand while unravelling the bundle as little as possible. blechh. file working with litz wire under things that build character and things you can brag about having done once but never want to do again. also a good rite-of-passage for junior engineers ; .

From : matt whiting

bill putney wrote oh - and tell us one more time how an alternator and regulator can provide fully regulated voltage with moderate load present whether mr. alternator is spinning at 500 or 100 or 30 or 10 or 2 rpm. no doubt you are one of these people that ive come across that would argue with someone that increasing electrical load does not affect the mechanical load torque requirements on an alternator. still not muddy enough yet bill - matt .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on thu 16 mar 2006 055331 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote by you even making a statement like you did about a negative ground 12v system as if the laws of physics are different for them illustrates your lack of understanding. never said the laws of physics were different. i did say that the procedures used by an experienced tech compared to the theoretical silliness proposed by the engineers here was a better way to do it and would be more thorough. the actual problem seems to be one of actually taking into account the facts given before any troubleshooting started. if a person understands designs and troubleshoots not only 12v neg. ground systems but understands designs and troubleshoots positive ground systems and bipolar voltage systems and 24 volt systems and 48 volt systems and a.c. voltage systems - does that make him less knowledgeable than someone who claims to troubleshoot only 12v neg. ground systems again - all rhetorical questions theory and book knowledge takes a backseat to actual experience in finding and fixing these problems. you suggested testing at the port to determine voltage. terrific and from a textbook thats logical. but when the complaint states that the equipment acts in a manner consistant with low voltage at the port its illogical to test the port for something you know its exhibiting. the first step is to test either the source or the equipment. well we know from what the op said that the equipment works fine in other vehicles and when the alternator is supplying voltage. that leaves one thing to test first..... the battery. except id does not always work with th engine running either. yes the battery should be checked but it has been checked adequately at this point and yet all your knowledge design theory and education didnt point directly at the battery. sadly it wasnt just you thus confirming my statements. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on thu 16 mar 2006 053833 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote if the op followed my instructions which he did the voltage of the battery under the load being experienced is verified. he checks the voltage at the load and at the source while under load. if the source voltage is within spec and the load voltage is not he has a circuit problem - and only a circuit problem. is the battery perfect we dont know. is it the problem no. if on the other hand the load voltage is below spec and the source battery voltage is also low we know he has a battery problem. if there is a significant difference between source and load voltage he also has a circuit problem. iow perform a battery load test using the equipment at hand rather than one that tests only the battery. but... its still a load test which everyone claimed was either not necessary or cerainly not a first step. now you say its not only part of the process but you mention it in the first step. congrats thats exactly what i suggested only using an actual load tester instead of electronic equipment that was prone to shutting down. max the instructions i gave at the very beginning for doing the load test accomplished all of this. also -if you do the voltage drop test with the engine running you are taking the battery entirely out of the equation and still getting a valid voltage drop test. with the battery in the equation the voltage drop is still valid and doing the drop test by measuring voltage at both source and load and subratcting to get the drop gives you a valid voltage drop even if the battery is only an 8 volt source. if there is no voltage drop and the voltage at the load is too low then obviously the source voltage is also low or there would be a voltage drop. if the battery source voltage droops under load ses definitely you have a bvattery problem - but this is not the case in this case. as for using a dedicated load tester the op does not have one - but he does have headlights blower motor and a starter which allow him to perform a minimum of 2 very valid load tests on the battery with only his recently purchased vom. this allows him to learn something. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : bill putney

max dodge wrote oh - and tell us one more time how an alternator and regulator can provide fully regulated voltage with moderate load present whether mr. alternator is spinning at 500 or 100 or 30 or 10 or 2 rpm. clearly you are taking this out of context as the implicastion was idle on up not below idle... you previously refused to believe that the charge voltage in many cars drops a bit at idle which it truly does. and you continue to ignore that the inverter cut itself off with the engine running where the battery is not a factor. and countless people have accurately told you that the battery voltage was already measured *and* reminded you that a running alternator will pull the voltage up to the charging voltage regardless of the condition of the battery with the exception of a shorted cell - i guess reminded is not an accurate word there since you apparently never were aware of that in the first place and refuse to acknowledge it or admit your initial error on that and other points. man - you *have* to be a liberal democrat. battery voltage isnt the issue drop in that voltage under load is. alternator is not the issue since the problem occurred while it was not a factor. inverter turned itself off *with* *engine* *running* but youre right - alternator was not the issue - voltage drop elsewhere was battery was not a factor with the alternator running. this is just one example of your desperate grab for something to prove me wrong... ...another example of how desperate you are to prove me wrong. not really - youve done a pretty good job of that on your own. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : bill putney

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote theory and book knowledge takes a backseat to actual experience in finding and fixing these problems. you suggested testing at the port to determine voltage. terrific and from a textbook thats logical. but when the complaint states that the equipment acts in a manner consistant with low voltage at the port its illogical to test the port for something you know its exhibiting. the first step is to test either the source or the equipment. well we know from what the op said that the equipment works fine in other vehicles and when the alternator is supplying voltage. that leaves one thing to test first..... the battery. except id does not always work with th engine running either. a fact that max has refused to acknowledge even onece though it has been pointed out to him several times. yes the battery should be checked but it has been checked adequately at this point bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : tbone

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote theory and book knowledge takes a backseat to actual experience in finding and fixing these problems. you suggested testing at the port to determine voltage. terrific and from a textbook thats logical. but when the complaint states that the equipment acts in a manner consistant with low voltage at the port its illogical to test the port for something you know its exhibiting. the first step is to test either the source or the equipment. well we know from what the op said that the equipment works fine in other vehicles and when the alternator is supplying voltage. that leaves one thing to test first..... the battery. except id does not always work with th engine running either. a fact that max has refused to acknowledge even onece though it has been pointed out to him several times. i can see that you are not a member of the dodge trucks group or you would already know this. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : bill putney

tbone wrote clare at snyder.on.ca wrote theory and book knowledge takes a backseat to actual experience in finding and fixing these problems. you suggested testing at the port to determine voltage. terrific and from a textbook thats logical. but when the complaint states that the equipment acts in a manner consistant with low voltage at the port its illogical to test the port for something you know its exhibiting. the first step is to test either the source or the equipment. well we know from what the op said that the equipment works fine in other vehicles and when the alternator is supplying voltage. that leaves one thing to test first..... the battery. except id does not always work with th engine running either. a fact that max has refused to acknowledge even once though it has been pointed out to him several times. i can see that you are not a member of the dodge trucks group or you would already know this. true that. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on thu 16 mar 2006 191350 -0500 clare at snyder.on.ca wrote ive been on this list for several years - and i know max can be ornery. its a case of dont confuse me with facts my minds already made up like your god president he appears to believe it doesnt matter how wrong you are as long as you are sincere. sincerity is the hard part. once youve got everybody fooled on that score youve got it made. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** boy - was that a fruedian slip or what. was supposed to read your good president!!!!!!! *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on thu 16 mar 2006 184834 -0500 bill putney bptn@kinez.net wrote tbone wrote clare at snyder.on.ca wrote theory and book knowledge takes a backseat to actual experience in finding and fixing these problems. you suggested testing at the port to determine voltage. terrific and from a textbook thats logical. but when the complaint states that the equipment acts in a manner consistant with low voltage at the port its illogical to test the port for something you know its exhibiting. the first step is to test either the source or the equipment. well we know from what the op said that the equipment works fine in other vehicles and when the alternator is supplying voltage. that leaves one thing to test first..... the battery. except id does not always work with th engine running either. a fact that max has refused to acknowledge even once though it has been pointed out to him several times. i can see that you are not a member of the dodge trucks group or you would already know this. true that. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x ive been on this list for several years - and i know max can be ornery. its a case of dont confuse me with facts my minds already made up like your god president he appears to believe it doesnt matter how wrong you are as long as you are sincere. sincerity is the hard part. once youve got everybody fooled on that score youve got it made. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : max dodge

you previously refused to believe that the charge voltage in many cars drops a bit at idle which it truly does. and you continue to ignore that the inverter cut itself off with the engine running where the battery is not a factor. ive read the op quite a few times and that info is not in there. that might be why ive ignored that bit of info.... inverter turned itself off *with* *engine* *running* but youre right - again incorrect as the op never says this. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote oh - and tell us one more time how an alternator and regulator can provide fully regulated voltage with moderate load present whether mr. alternator is spinning at 500 or 100 or 30 or 10 or 2 rpm. clearly you are taking this out of context as the implicastion was idle on up not below idle... you previously refused to believe that the charge voltage in many cars drops a bit at idle which it truly does. and you continue to ignore that the inverter cut itself off with the engine running where the battery is not a factor. and countless people have accurately told you that the battery voltage was already measured *and* reminded you that a running alternator will pull the voltage up to the charging voltage regardless of the condition of the battery with the exception of a shorted cell - i guess reminded is not an accurate word there since you apparently never were aware of that in the first place and refuse to acknowledge it or admit your initial error on that and other points. man - you *have* to be a liberal democrat. battery voltage isnt the issue drop in that voltage under load is. alternator is not the issue since the problem occurred while it was not a factor. inverter turned itself off *with* *engine* *running* but youre right - alternator was not the issue - voltage drop elsewhere was battery was not a factor with the alternator running. this is just one example of your desperate grab for something to prove me wrong... ...another example of how desperate you are to prove me wrong. not really - youve done a pretty good job of that on your own. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on fri 17 mar 2006 013515 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote once youve got everybody fooled on that score youve got it made. maybe you all ought to go back whence you came since your tactic of trying to fool at least three of us whove had more experience in the field that you book types isnt working. oh and take tbone with you. then yall can have fun foolin each other because its not working on those of us who know better. first of all im not the book type ive been a licenced mechanic since 1971 and have made my living as a mechanic for many years. electrical diagnosis was one of my specialties and i did work for quite a few local shops who brought their problems to me because i could solve them.ten years of my career i was service manager as well as diagnostician spending a minimum of a few hours a day on the bench. i have also built and driven a relatively successful electric vehicle and have done board level diagnosis and repairs on computers. i am not an engineer nor do i play one on tv. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : max dodge

once youve got everybody fooled on that score youve got it made. maybe you all ought to go back whence you came since your tactic of trying to fool at least three of us whove had more experience in the field that you book types isnt working. oh and take tbone with you. then yall can have fun foolin each other because its not working on those of us who know better. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author on thu 16 mar 2006 184834 -0500 bill putney bptn@kinez.net wrote tbone wrote clare at snyder.on.ca wrote theory and book knowledge takes a backseat to actual experience in finding and fixing these problems. you suggested testing at the port to determine voltage. terrific and from a textbook thats logical. but when the complaint states that the equipment acts in a manner consistant with low voltage at the port its illogical to test the port for something you know its exhibiting. the first step is to test either the source or the equipment. well we know from what the op said that the equipment works fine in other vehicles and when the alternator is supplying voltage. that leaves one thing to test first..... the battery. except id does not always work with th engine running either. a fact that max has refused to acknowledge even once though it has been pointed out to him several times. i can see that you are not a member of the dodge trucks group or you would already know this. true that. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x ive been on this list for several years - and i know max can be ornery. its a case of dont confuse me with facts my minds already made up like your god president he appears to believe it doesnt matter how wrong you are as long as you are sincere. sincerity is the hard part. once youve got everybody fooled on that score youve got it made. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : max dodge

lol i replied to both of your silly responses go look it up. most of your facts dont have a damn thing to do with the takeover since they are all from around 2003 and up and the takeover happened in 98. dcxs own biased web site also makes it clear that all stockholders meeting happen in germany. so much for a merger of equals lol!!! i saw your reply. it paralleled the gem quality reply you gave about having power but not being powered. it lacked facts rebuttal and any relevant info. simply put you denied the info because it was more current than the actual date of the merger. fact is the original comment was made regarding the present status of the company thus my comments dealt with the current status of the company. you have yet to refute the current status of the company in any manner but to deny its statments on its own website. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author the problem is max that you are the only one that thinks you know better. the rest of us know you to be the fool you are especially in this as well as the dc thread. have you got a rebuttal to my facts yet if not crawl back under the rock and hit the net. btw all that you deny is readily available from dcxs own site. lol i replied to both of your silly responses go look it up. most of your facts dont have a damn thing to do with the takeover since they are all from around 2003 and up and the takeover happened in 98. dcxs own biased web site also makes it clear that all stockholders meeting happen in germany. so much for a merger of equals lol!!! -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : bill putney

max dodge wrote you previously refused to believe that the charge voltage in many cars drops a bit at idle which it truly does. and you continue to ignore that the inverter cut itself off with the engine running where the battery is not a factor. ive read the op quite a few times and that info is not in there. that might be why ive ignored that bit of info.... inverter turned itself off *with* *engine* *running* but youre right - again incorrect as the op never says this. more attempted sleight-of-hand. it wasnt in the original post op- it was in a subsequent post by the op orignial poster. nice try at confusing people with the dual meaning of the acronym op. so now that you know youve been wexposed on that point go ahead and try to tell me that it wasnt in any post by the op original poster. the proof in your utter dishonesty is that the text from the post has been quoted for you more than once and you continue to try to obfuscate that with your little op = original poster and op = original post trick. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : dan c

on fri 17 mar 2006 060349 -0500 bill putney wrote more attempted sleight-of-hand. it wasnt in the original post op- it was in a subsequent post by the op orignial poster. nice try at confusing people with the dual meaning of the acronym op. so now that you know youve been wexposed on that point go ahead and try to tell me nobody gives a fuck about your anal retentive personal disagreements with this other guy. how about you just give it a rest or take your bullshit to email wouldja -- if youre not on the edge youre taking up too much space. linux registered user #327951 .

From : dan c

on fri 17 mar 2006 060308 +0000 max dodge wrote i saw your reply. it paralleled the gem quality reply you gave about having power but not being powered. it lacked facts rebuttal and any relevant info. simply put you denied the info because it was more current than the shut the fuck up and take your personal bullshit disagreements with the other idiots here to email. nobody here is interested. -- if youre not on the edge youre taking up too much space. linux registered user #327951 .

From : max dodge

more attempted sleight-of-hand. it wasnt in the original post op- it was in a subsequent post by the op orignial poster. nice try at confusing people with the dual meaning of the acronym op. so now that you know youve been wexposed on that point go ahead and try to tell me that it wasnt in any post by the op original poster. the proof in your utter dishonesty is that the text from the post has been quoted for you more than once and you continue to try to obfuscate that with your little op = original poster and op = original post trick. ok.... here ya go.... i just purchased a 2003 dodge caravan se with 45k miles. with my previous cars a gmc jimmy and a chevy cavalier ive plugged an ac inverter into the cigarette lighter/power outlet and then plugged my laptop computer into the inverter to charge and run it without any problems. however with my new car the inverter shuts down indicating its not getting enough power it automatically shuts down at 10.5v. when the engine is running the inverter works fine; but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. engine off inverter goes off. there are two outlets -- one in the front and one in the back. the one in the front requires the key to be in acc; the one in the back is always on. whether the key is on with either on or the key is off with just the one in the back the results are the same inverter only stays on for a few seconds indicating that its not getting enough juice. when the engines on and hence alternators on it stays on. but with the engine off the inverter stays on for just a couple of seconds and then shuts down. engine off inverter goes off. the one in the back is on all the time the fuse box allows you to toggle it between always on and only on with key but the one in the front requires the key to be in acc. either way without the engine on the inverters not getting enough juice to stay on. engine off inverter goes off. actually ive tested it with the engine off and it only stays on a few seconds. not sure what the batter saver function is; but if the battery is fully charged then a 90w drain shouldnt be that much for it. but the inverter shuts down after a couple of seconds with the engine off. enggine off inverter goes off. the proof in your utter dishonesty is that the text from the post has been quoted for you more than once and you continue to try to obfuscate that with your little op = original poster and op = original post trick. ok so now that ive quoted in context four posts from the op all within the first day of this thread where he clearly says that the inverter shuts down when the engine is not running what have you got to say in each post his last line of the first paragraph says if the engine is off the inverter goes off. its plain english with which you claim to be well trained. its not me that is being dishonest here junior. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote you previously refused to believe that the charge voltage in many cars drops a bit at idle which it truly does. and you continue to ignore that the inverter cut itself off with the engine running where the battery is not a factor. ive read the op quite a few times and that info is not in there. that might be why ive ignored that bit of info.... inverter turned itself off *with* *engine* *running* but youre right - again incorrect as the op never says this. more attempted sleight-of-hand. it wasnt in the original post op- it was in a subsequent post by the op orignial poster. nice try at confusing people with the dual meaning of the acronym op. so now that you know youve been wexposed on that point go ahead and try to tell me that it wasnt in any post by the op original poster. the proof in your utter dishonesty is that the text from the post has been quoted for you more than once and you continue to try to obfuscate that with your little op = original poster and op = original post trick. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : rickshaw

bill putney wrote also - let the record show that well into this thread i was the very first person to make the obvious suggestion of actually using a voltmeter to measure the voltage *at* *the* *socket* so noted. .

From : bill putney

neil - stick with clare - hell get you thru this. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : bill putney

max dodge wrote more attempted sleight-of-hand. it wasnt in the original post op- it was in a subsequent post by the op orignial poster. nice try at confusing people with the dual meaning of the acronym op. so now that you know youve been wexposed on that point go ahead and try to tell me that it wasnt in any post by the op original poster. the proof in your utter dishonesty is that the text from the post has been quoted for you more than once and you continue to try to obfuscate that with your little op = original poster and op = original post trick. ok.... here ya go.... ...engine off inverter goes off. never was an issue. ...engine off inverter goes off. never was an issue. ...engine off inverter goes off. never was an issue. ...enggine off inverter goes off. never was an issue. the proof in your utter dishonesty is that the text from the post has been quoted for you more than once and you continue to try to obfuscate that with your little op = original poster and op = original post trick. ok so now that ive quoted in context four posts from the op all within the first day of this thread where he clearly says that the inverter shuts down when the engine is not running what have you got to say never was an issue. the issue was that the inverter shut off *with* *the* *engine* *running* not that it shut off with the engine not running. i never said that the inverter didnt shut down with the engine off. the issue was that the inverter actually shut off with the engine running. 953 p.m. also on the first day of posting http//groups.google.com/group/alt.autos/browsefrm/thread/f787fc5ec44ac422/129c946e95dcf4a3lnk=st&q=%22rear+power+outlet+engine+on%22+group%3arec.autos.makers.chrysler+author%3aneil&rnum=1&hl=en#129c946e95dcf4a3 rear power outlet engine on ---------------------------------- outlet alone 13.5 with inverter alone 13.4 with charger alone in inverter 13.3 with laptop plugged in off and charging 12.0 with laptop plugged in on and charging inverter turned off in each post his last line of the first paragraph says if the engine is off the inverter goes off. its plain english with which you claim to be well trained. except that what you were taking issue with was that i said the inverter cut off with the engine running. there was never any issue over it cutting off with the engine off. your mind is flip-flopping. its not me that is being dishonest here junior. not so. you changed it into an argument about something that i never said. inverter cut off with engine off - never disagreed. it did cut off with the engine running which is what you argued with previously. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : daniel j stern

on fri 17 mar 2006 bill putney wrote max dodge wrote snip say bill the pigs enjoyin it. im just sayin. .

From : bill putney

daniel j. stern wrote on fri 17 mar 2006 bill putney wrote max dodge wrote snip say bill the pigs enjoyin it. im just sayin. understood. thanks! bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : max dodge

might be because the pig is basically right and the engineers are grasping at straws. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author on fri 17 mar 2006 bill putney wrote max dodge wrote snip say bill the pigs enjoyin it. im just sayin. .

From : max dodge

not so. you changed it into an argument about something that i never said. inverter cut off with engine off - never disagreed. thats a lie. it did cut off with the engine running which is what you argued with previously. the only time he indicates the inverter switched off while the engine is on is while the laptop was on and operational. in this same test he notes odd fluctuations not simply line drop. were back to testing the battery to insure its ability is up to par with an additional test to find out stabilty of alt. output which might be directly tied to battery condition. iow while line drop is obviously present it does not rule out battery condition. further since battery voltage only checked before testing and is not tested concurrent to the various scenarios we dont have any info on source voltage when the port voltage shows as a problem. fascinating that we have loads of proof of a line drop but none of a good source while the line drop is occurring. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote more attempted sleight-of-hand. it wasnt in the original post op- it was in a subsequent post by the op orignial poster. nice try at confusing people with the dual meaning of the acronym op. so now that you know youve been wexposed on that point go ahead and try to tell me that it wasnt in any post by the op original poster. the proof in your utter dishonesty is that the text from the post has been quoted for you more than once and you continue to try to obfuscate that with your little op = original poster and op = original post trick. ok.... here ya go.... ...engine off inverter goes off. never was an issue. ...engine off inverter goes off. never was an issue. ...engine off inverter goes off. never was an issue. ...enggine off inverter goes off. never was an issue. the proof in your utter dishonesty is that the text from the post has been quoted for you more than once and you continue to try to obfuscate that with your little op = original poster and op = original post trick. ok so now that ive quoted in context four posts from the op all within the first day of this thread where he clearly says that the inverter shuts down when the engine is not running what have you got to say never was an issue. the issue was that the inverter shut off *with* *the* *engine* *running* not that it shut off with the engine not running. i never said that the inverter didnt shut down with the engine off. the issue was that the inverter actually shut off with the engine running. 953 p.m. also on the first day of posting http//groups.google.com/group/alt.autos/browsefrm/thread/f787fc5ec44ac422/129c946e95dcf4a3lnk=st&q=%22rear+power+outlet+engine+on%22+group%3arec.autos.makers.chrysler+author%3aneil&rnum=1&hl=en#129c946e95dcf4a3 rear power outlet engine on ---------------------------------- outlet alone 13.5 with inverter alone 13.4 with charger alone in inverter 13.3 with laptop plugged in off and charging 12.0 with laptop plugged in on and charging inverter turned off in each post his last line of the first paragraph says if the engine is off the inverter goes off. its plain english with which you claim to be well trained. except that what you were taking issue with was that i said the inverter cut off with the engine running. there was never any issue over it cutting off with the engine off. your mind is flip-flopping. its not me that is being dishonest here junior. not so. you changed it into an argument about something that i never said. inverter cut off with engine off - never disagreed. it did cut off with the engine running which is what you argued with previously. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : bill putney

max dodge wrote not so. you changed it into an argument about something that i never said. inverter cut off with engine off - never disagreed. thats a lie. whatever. but nowhere did i deny that the inverter cut off with engine off so i dont know why you keep insisting that i did barring some mental disorder on your part. if you ignore inverter cut off with engine on which cut off did occur the possibilities are bad battery or line drops or bad ground - *but* - and thats a *big* butt - if you add the factoid that it *also* cut off with engine on i.e. alternator forcing higher voltage at the battery which was verified *then* the bad battery scenario drops out and you are left with line drop or bad ground. bow down to my superior field experience and troubleshooting skills. it did cut off with the engine running which is what you argued with previously. the only time he indicates the inverter switched off while the engine is on is while the laptop was on and operational. in this same test he notes odd fluctuations not simply line drop. were back to testing the battery to insure its ability is up to par with an additional test to find out stabilty of alt. output which might be directly tied to battery condition. iow while line drop is obviously present it does not rule out battery condition. further since battery voltage only checked before testing and is not tested concurrent to the various scenarios we dont have any info on source voltage when the port voltage shows as a problem. fascinating that we have loads of proof of a line drop but none of a good source while the line drop is occurring. with all the observations made the only way that would be a factor is in the case of a shorted cell which i mentioned several times previously but which there have been absolutely no indications of. you do not get the voltage measurements on the battery with engine off that neil got with a shorted cell and in such a case the alternator will raise the voltage above battery rest voltage with engine running essentially taking the battery out of the equation. you have a *remote* chance of being right *if* there is an *intermittent* shorted cell condition. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on sat 18 mar 2006 075328 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote might be because the pig is basically right and the engineers are grasping at straws. and everyone knows what pigs do to straw p-$$ in it *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : neil

it is something else. dc likes to save money where it can and they probably didnt expect something that can draw 11+ amps and be sensitive to voltage drops to be plugged into that outlet and based the wire size on how warm they will get at full rated current not on voltage drop. while there is a slight chance that replacing the battery will correct the problem it will be a temporary solution. there could also be a voltage drop caused by a bad chassis to body ground but that is probably only adding to the undersized wires. i tend to think its the latter. the front outlet is also problematic. you are looking at it from the correct perspective and hopefully learned a little about electrical tracing as well. yes indeed! i appreciate everyones help. i was able to do it with my 14-year old son so we both learned a little and had fun most of the time - at the same time. the problem is in the wiring and rewiring the front outlet is really not that big of a deal and just about anyone that has installed a car stereo could do it. good luck with whatever decision you make. if there are problems with both the front and the rear outlets wouldnt it make sense that the problem is elsewhere besides the wiring to each outlet neil -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : max dodge

and everyone knows what pigs do to straw p-$$ in it which begs the question would you prefer to piss in straw rather than grasp at it or stick your hand under a pissing pig grasping at straws who is smarter here -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author on sat 18 mar 2006 075328 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote might be because the pig is basically right and the engineers are grasping at straws. and everyone knows what pigs do to straw p-$$ in it *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : neil

yes that would be nice. but the front and rear outlets both exhibit problems. so that would seem to indicate that the problem is elsewhere in the system no i have serviced a lot of vehicles that used mobile equipment needing the power outlet or cigarette lighter plug. some sneaky ones gave symptoms like yours. they would work when the engine ran and the alternator was pumping out its 14+ volts but die fast with the engine off. i some of these cases well several over the years it was just a crappy push on clip connector on the back of the lighter socket. with full power in the system the bad connection would arc and work with the lower power it wouldnt pass enough voltage to take the 10a turn on power surge needed by these systems. just a thought for you. it could just be an easy loose connection fix. mike 86/00 cj7 laredo 33x9.5 bfg muds glass nose to tail in 00 88 cherokee 235 bfg ats canadian off road trips photos non members can still view! jan/06 http//www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.htmlid=2115147590 more off road album links at bottom of the view page neil wrote im not sure why the problem with testing the battery since you determined that the port had a voltage drop by plugging in the inverter the first time. im sure the factory design didnt allow a large drop to 10.5 volts with the minimal load your inverter poses. originally the advice i received here as well as that from the dealer service rep were discussing was just to replace the battery. in my original post i said that while i dont rule out it needing a new battery i was asking if it could be anything else. hence this discussion. as to all the technical stuff about the battery and state of charge a cummins ram with three year old batteries starts just fine and runs well. grid heater cycles nicely and all works according to design. swap in a set of new batteries and the difference is quite noticable despite the old batteries working just fine. engine spins up on start much more easily voltage drop on grid heater operation was less drop and at a higher voltage 14.5 to 11.5 prior to swap 15 to 12.5 after new batteries. im pretty ignorant about these things. but it seems to me that dropping from 15 to 12.5 is a huge drop though maybe im wrong. if youre dropping that much then once the battery gets old again youll be back to where you were. but as you note swapping out the battery is cheaper than rewiring. now im sure that there is some line drop in your system on that port. but if the battery is less than optimum youll get the effects of that line drop much more readily. you can certainly upgrade that part of the vehicle but at three years old that battery is coming out of that vehicle sooner than later. people have mentioned economics my thought is the battery is the basis and far more important part of your electrical system. id rather spend money making everything work better and then spend spare cash on an upgrade later when its affordable. yes agreed. the issue from my perspective is id rather get to the source of the problem rather than replace the battery which may resolve it enough for the inverter to work only to have the inverter not work again once the battery gets a little old. if it turns out that a complete rewire is necessary then that would be something to consider save on cost for short-term resolution. but at this point thats not clear. it may not require a complete rewire. neil -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author so either he can do a two minute tes

From : neil

the problem which has been suggested by the only tech to actually be near the vehicle or he can rewire the vehicle to the port gets more power. actually the only techs to be near the vehicle were service managers at two service stations both of which said they had no device to test the voltage at the power outlet. the one i believe youre referring to the one at a dealer said that the battery was three years old and should just be replaced that that was probably the problem. he didnt suggest any test. the other one suggested i buy a capacitor to add to the rear outlet like people do when they want to run high-powered stereo equipment. neil a battery load test is next to free and a battery is about $60. rewiring the port so it carries proper voltage at all times.... well thats $60 an hour at least and would likely take 2-4 hours. i think the battery load test is not only inexpensive but warranted given the age and manufacture of the battery. but i think weve covered that ground because as much as youd like to deny it the above info was taken into account when i gave my recommendation. argue amongst yourselves. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote youre cherry-picking your information again and understandably coming up with wrong conclusions. the observed problem is occurring both *with* *engine* *running* and with engine not running. wrong. from the original post when the engine is running the inverter works fine; when the engine is running the inverter works fine. but when the engine is off with key in accessory position the inverter will run for a few seconds give an error beep and then shut down. when the engine is off the inverter shuts down. not hard to figure out really..... you just proved my point about cherry-picking waht you want to take into account that means choosing to observe certain infirmation but ignore other just as important to support your pre-made conclusion. whats the info. that you are choosing to ignore this that the op also posted and i included it in my previous post that you just repsonded to so its not like you had to look for it - you had to intentionally disregard it neil posted this **rear power outlet engine on ---------------------------------- **outlet alone 13.5 **with inverter alone 13.4 **with charger alone in inverter 13.3 **with laptop plugged in off and charging 12.0 **with laptop plugged in on and charging inverter turned off splain that one. bill putney to reply by e-mail replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter x . 222 314847 dwysf.6299$bj7.6238@read2..pas.earthlink.net i may have misread maxs post. but i thought he was saying that its 15v without the heater and 12.5v with the heater. neil wrote im pretty ignorant about these things. but it seems to me that dropping from 15 to 12.5 is a huge drop though maybe im wrong. if youre dropping that much then once the battery gets old again youll be back to where you were. but as you note swapping out the battery is cheaper than rewiring. if youre talking about reading 15 volts with the engine running and only 12.5 with it off thats not a huge drop. its just the characteristic of a lead-acid battery. when the engine is running the operating voltage must be high enough to charge the battery. a lead-acid battery fully charged will read about 12.4-12.5 volts at rest. even after a significant amount of discharge it will still only be down to about 12 volts. by the time its showing 11 volts at rest its essentially dead. now if you want to re-charge it you cannot do so simply by connecting it to a 12.5 volt source. in order to cause the chemistry of the battery to work in reverse and convert electrical energy into stored chemical energy you have to exceed the threshold charging voltage which is around 13.8 to 14.0 volts. .

From : dan c

on sat 18 mar 2006 221525 +0000 max dodge wrote and everyone knows what pigs do to straw p-$$ in it which begs the question would you prefer to piss in straw rather than grasp at it or stick your hand under a pissing pig grasping at straws who is smarter here who gives a fuck stfu. -- if youre not on the edge youre taking up too much space. linux registered user #327951 .

From : neil

as youve been discussing with clare i tested the voltage at the battery with the load laptop on and charging placed on it and the voltage at the battery was fine whereas the voltage at the ports dropped 1-2v. that would seem to indicate that the batterys fine and that the problems with the wiring no neil yes agreed. the issue from my perspective is id rather get to the source of the problem rather than replace the battery which may resolve it enough for the inverter to work only to have the inverter not work again once the battery gets a little old. if it turns out that a complete rewire is necessary then that would be something to consider save on cost for short-term resolution. but at this point thats not clear. it may not require a complete rewire. your last line is precisely why ive advocated a load test of the battery. in my area such a test is quick and easy and usually free. its a very easy way of determining if the battery is up to the task at hand. i think your example of parts replacment = a little more voltage applies very well here. you could replace the wiring to the port and get a bit more voltage only to lose it again as the battery continues to age. on the other hand if you load test the battery and it passes then youve pinpointed the wiring as the culprit and you can replace only the wiring. in my opinion itll cost a bit more to rewire the port since doing it correctly may involve purchasing a relay and a switch as well as running the wire so as to be both cosmetically and practically done. however if you do it yourself the cost would be less out of pocket and more in time spent. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author .

From : max dodge

neil the grid heater is a large draw that most people dont have. you are correct its 15v when the heater is off and 12.5 or so with it in operation. with old batteries i was dropping to 11.5v and only peaking at 14.5 or so. theory says nothing is wrong with either condition but the new batteries obviously made a huge difference in nominal power. since this nominal figure is the one that shuts down the inverter in your case its logical to look at all possible causes of this low reading. i am certain you have line drop. it would be impossible not to have some line drop and im sure the wiring isnt the best available although i hesitate to say its the worst as some here would have you believe. i still think its wise to load test the battery and once it passes check the wiring. the logical way to proceed is to eliminate problem areas rather than assume a problem is caused by one thing and base all repairs on an assumption. essentially what others are asking you to do is replace the wiring due to line drop. but until you check the power source at the same time as the port and determine that only the line voltage is dropping below spec youll simply be replacing parts in an effort to cure the problem. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author i may have misread maxs post. but i thought he was saying that its 15v without the heater and 12.5v with the heater. neil wrote im pretty ignorant about these things. but it seems to me that dropping from 15 to 12.5 is a huge drop though maybe im wrong. if youre dropping that much then once the battery gets old again youll be back to where you were. but as you note swapping out the battery is cheaper than rewiring. if youre talking about reading 15 volts with the engine running and only 12.5 with it off thats not a huge drop. its just the characteristic of a lead-acid battery. when the engine is running the operating voltage must be high enough to charge the battery. a lead-acid battery fully charged will read about 12.4-12.5 volts at rest. even after a significant amount of discharge it will still only be down to about 12 volts. by the time its showing 11 volts at rest its essentially dead. now if you want to re-charge it you cannot do so simply by connecting it to a 12.5 volt source. in order to cause the chemistry of the battery to work in reverse and convert electrical energy into stored chemical energy you have to exceed the threshold charging voltage which is around 13.8 to 14.0 volts. .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on sat 18 mar 2006 214523 gmt max dodge max340@verizon.net wrote as youve been discussing with clare i tested the voltage at the battery with the load laptop on and charging placed on it and the voltage at the battery was fine whereas the voltage at the ports dropped 1-2v. that would seem to indicate that the batterys fine and that the problems with the wiring no sure would. youve essentially done a load test. im still skeptical regarding the age of the battery but if its working under your load by all means its on to the wiring. your next problem is one that might be a bit confusing. is the line drop a problem of wiring by design or by wear and age to check it all youll need to find the fuse and the ground points and check continuity/resistance across the circuit. if you find resistance to be nil its probably true that the wires are too small for the load. if you find a large resistance especially to ground youve got a problem caused by age and wear. either way the fix is likely to be rewiring the port or replacing the port with a heavier unit. both of these issues are a bit more work than replacing a battery. ive just posted more or less detailed instructions how to do the voltage drop tests to determine where in the circuit the problem lies. when neil gets back with the results ill point him to the actual source of the problem and suggest the most sensible route to follow to correct it. *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : max dodge

as youve been discussing with clare i tested the voltage at the battery with the load laptop on and charging placed on it and the voltage at the battery was fine whereas the voltage at the ports dropped 1-2v. that would seem to indicate that the batterys fine and that the problems with the wiring no sure would. youve essentially done a load test. im still skeptical regarding the age of the battery but if its working under your load by all means its on to the wiring. your next problem is one that might be a bit confusing. is the line drop a problem of wiring by design or by wear and age to check it all youll need to find the fuse and the ground points and check continuity/resistance across the circuit. if you find resistance to be nil its probably true that the wires are too small for the load. if you find a large resistance especially to ground youve got a problem caused by age and wear. either way the fix is likely to be rewiring the port or replacing the port with a heavier unit. both of these issues are a bit more work than replacing a battery. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author as youve been discussing with clare i tested the voltage at the battery with the load laptop on and charging placed on it and the voltage at the battery was fine whereas the voltage at the ports dropped 1-2v. that would seem to indicate that the batterys fine and that the problems with the wiring no neil yes agreed. the issue from my perspective is id rather get to the source of the problem rather than replace the battery which may resolve it enough for the inverter to work only to have the inverter not work again once the battery gets a little old. if it turns out that a complete rewire is necessary then that would be something to consider save on cost for short-term resolution. but at this point thats not clear. it may not require a complete rewire. your last line is precisely why ive advocated a load test of the battery. in my area such a test is quick and easy and usually free. its a very easy way of determining if the battery is up to the task at hand. i think your example of parts replacment = a little more voltage applies very well here. you could replace the wiring to the port and get a bit more voltage only to lose it again as the battery continues to age. on the other hand if you load test the battery and it passes then youve pinpointed the wiring as the culprit and you can replace only the wiring. in my opinion itll cost a bit more to rewire the port since doing it correctly may involve purchasing a relay and a switch as well as running the wire so as to be both cosmetically and practically done. however if you do it yourself the cost would be less out of pocket and more in time spent. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on sat 18 mar 2006 190750 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote it is something else. dc likes to save money where it can and they probably didnt expect something that can draw 11+ amps and be sensitive to voltage drops to be plugged into that outlet and based the wire size on how warm they will get at full rated current not on voltage drop. while there is a slight chance that replacing the battery will correct the problem it will be a temporary solution. there could also be a voltage drop caused by a bad chassis to body ground but that is probably only adding to the undersized wires. i tend to think its the latter. the front outlet is also problematic. you are looking at it from the correct perspective and hopefully learned a little about electrical tracing as well. yes indeed! i appreciate everyones help. i was able to do it with my 14-year old son so we both learned a little and had fun most of the time - at the same time. the problem is in the wiring and rewiring the front outlet is really not that big of a deal and just about anyone that has installed a car stereo could do it. good luck with whatever decision you make. if there are problems with both the front and the rear outlets wouldnt it make sense that the problem is elsewhere besides the wiring to each outlet neil neil are both outlets on the same fuse like on my pontiac if not there is a simple way to find out if you have a common problem affecting both or whether it is simply a matter of both circuits having a problem. with the engine running so hopefully the inverter will stay running and with the inverter in the back plug with the computer on check the battery voltage at idle. then check the voltage at the inveter feed-through plug and then at the front plug. the front plug should read battery voltage and the rear feed-through plug will read less. the difference between battery voltage and feed-through plug voltage is the total voltage drop. if the battery voltage and the front socket voltage are not the same the difference is the voltage drop that is common to both circuits could be ground resistance could be power feed resistance to the fuse panel turn on the heater fan and / 0r headlights and see if the voltage drop increases. make sure to recheck the battery voltage so you can accurately calculate the circuit voltage drop. now do the chassis ground voltage drop test again 2 volt scale from battery post to the good chassis ground. do this test with the same load computer and headlights and/or heater fan. subtract this drop from the total drop and you know how much drop you have un accounted for. to find out where the drop is occurring connect a wire from the battery positive to one wire of the meter and connect the other wire to the fuse in the fuse panel. you will need a jumper wire to extend the voltmeter leads from the battery back to the fuse box. whatever the voltage reading is from the battery to the fuse is the voltage drop between the battery and the fuse block. then you can go from the fuse to the center of the feed-through plug on the inverter. any reading here is the voltage drop across the thin wire from the fuse to the inverter plug. then connect the meter from the shellground side of the feedthrough plug to a good body ground can be any bright plated screw or bolt into the metal body - often the tailgate latch is as good and handy as any any reading here is drop between the plug ground and body ground. reply with the results of the test or if you want to avoid the circus you can respond to me by e-mail. i think you can figure out my email address from the munged address shown. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : tbone

it is something else. dc likes to save money where it can and they probably didnt expect something that can draw 11+ amps and be sensitive to voltage drops to be plugged into that outlet and based the wire size on how warm they will get at full rated current not on voltage drop. while there is a slight chance that replacing the battery will correct the problem it will be a temporary solution. there could also be a voltage drop caused by a bad chassis to body ground but that is probably only adding to the undersized wires. i tend to think its the latter. the front outlet is also problematic. you are looking at it from the correct perspective and hopefully learned a little about electrical tracing as well. yes indeed! i appreciate everyones help. i was able to do it with my 14-year old son so we both learned a little and had fun most of the time - at the same time. the problem is in the wiring and rewiring the front outlet is really not that big of a deal and just about anyone that has installed a car stereo could do it. good luck with whatever decision you make. if there are problems with both the front and the rear outlets wouldnt it make sense that the problem is elsewhere besides the wiring to each outlet not at all. they will most likely use the same wiring for both and if the shorter front wiring is giving a problem you can bet that the rear one will as well. you can run yourself in circles with this forever but unless you see a significant voltage drop at the battery when you turn your inverter on engine off then it has to be either in the wiring or the socket itself. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : neil

hi clare. thanks for these steps. some questions. neil are both outlets on the same fuse like on my pontiac there is one fuse which toggles the back outlet between going directly to the battery or needing the key to be in acc to function. when that fuse is out the back outlet doesnt work at all but the front one does. so i assume that means theyre not on the same fuse. not sure if theyd be on the same fuse if i have that one fuse set to key as the front one is. to find out where the drop is occurring connect a wire from the battery positive to one wire of the meter and connect the other wire to the fuse in the fuse panel. you will need a jumper wire to extend the voltmeter leads from the battery back to the fuse box. whatever the voltage reading is from the battery to the fuse is the voltage drop between the battery and the fuse block. is there a particular kind of wire i should be using thickness material etc. also how do i connect the wire to the fuse place it in the fuse socket and then put the fuse in the socket as well or some other way by the way my battery and fuse box are right next to each other. so the voltmeter will easily reach to both. do i still need to use a wire last the fuse would be the fuse which toggles the rear output functionality not the one for the front outlet correct then you can go from the fuse to the center of the feed-through plug on the inverter. i guess i would definitely need a wire for that. when going from the battery to the fuse id be using the red lead on the battery positive and the black lead on the fuse right here id be doing the same -- red lead to center of plug and black to fuse correct any reading here is the voltage drop across the thin wire from the fuse to the inverter plug. then connect the meter from the shellground side of the feedthrough plug to a good body ground can be any bright plated screw or bolt into the metal body - often the tailgate latch is as good and handy as any any reading here is drop between the plug ground and body ground. black lead to the shell of the plug and red lead to the body ground reply with the results of the test or if you want to avoid the circus you can respond to me by e-mail. i think you can figure out my email address from the munged address shown. i dont mind the circus -- though if you tell me which ng youre reading and posting in ill remove the crossposting since some have complained about that. thanks again for your help! neil -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : max dodge

not at all. they will most likely use the same wiring for both and if the shorter front wiring is giving a problem you can bet that the rear one will as well. you can run yourself in circles with this forever but unless you see a significant voltage drop at the battery when you turn your inverter on engine off then it has to be either in the wiring or the socket itself. so you are saying he should load test the battery using the equipment at hand wow sounds remarkably familiar yet you denied my opinion had any merit. now you seem to share it. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author it is something else. dc likes to save money where it can and they probably didnt expect something that can draw 11+ amps and be sensitive to voltage drops to be plugged into that outlet and based the wire size on how warm they will get at full rated current not on voltage drop. while there is a slight chance that replacing the battery will correct the problem it will be a temporary

From : neil

ok great. after this message ill post all messages only to alt.autos.dodge. thanks neil i dont mind the circus -- though if you tell me which ng youre reading and posting in ill remove the crossposting since some have complained about that. thanks again for your help! neil im on alt autos dodge. .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on sun 19 mar 2006 052459 gmt neil nospam@nospam.net wrote hi clare. thanks for these steps. some questions. neil are both outlets on the same fuse like on my pontiac there is one fuse which toggles the back outlet between going directly to the battery or needing the key to be in acc to function. when that fuse is out the back outlet doesnt work at all but the front one does. so i assume that means theyre not on the same fuse. not sure if theyd be on the same fuse if i have that one fuse set to key as the front one is. ok they are not on the same fuse. we have that settled. to find out where the drop is occurring connect a wire from the battery positive to one wire of the meter and connect the other wire to the fuse in the fuse panel. you will need a jumper wire to extend the voltmeter leads from the battery back to the fuse box. whatever the voltage reading is from the battery to the fuse is the voltage drop between the battery and the fuse block. is there a particular kind of wire i should be using thickness material etc. it would not be terribly critical but in this case with the fuse box right next to the battery you dont need it anyway. also how do i connect the wire to the fuse place it in the fuse socket and then put the fuse in the socket as well or some other way just poke the probe of the meter into the end of the fuse - in most ato fuses the post of the fuse is accessible. by the way my battery and fuse box are right next to each other. so the voltmeter will easily reach to both. do i still need to use a wire last the fuse would be the fuse which toggles the rear output functionality not the one for the front outlet correct correct. then you can go from the fuse to the center of the feed-through plug on the inverter. i guess i would definitely need a wire for that. yes and as i said the size of wire is not critical as there is no load on it. when going from the battery to the fuse id be using the red lead on the battery positive and the black lead on the fuse right correct. with a digital meter it is not critical - hook it up backwards and it just indicates - voltage. here id be doing the same -- red lead to center of plug and black to fuse correct normally the other way - positive to what is expected to be the higher voltage. again with digital it doesnt matter. any reading here is the voltage drop across the thin wire from the fuse to the inverter plug. then connect the meter from the shellground side of the feedthrough plug to a good body ground can be any bright plated screw or bolt into the metal body - often the tailgate latch is as good and handy as any any reading here is drop between the plug ground and body ground. black lead to the shell of the plug and red lead to the body ground again generally the other way but with digital instrumentation it is not critical. reply with the results of the test or if you want to avoid the circus you can respond to me by e-mail. i think you can figure out my email address from the munged address shown. i dont mind the circus -- though if you tell me which ng youre reading and posting in ill remove the crossposting since some have complained about that. thanks again for your help! neil -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : neil

it is something else. dc likes to save money where it can and they probably didnt expect something that can draw 11+ amps and be sensitive to voltage drops to be plugged into that outlet and based the wire size on how warm they will get at full rated current not on voltage drop. while there is a slight chance that replacing the battery will correct the problem it will be a temporary solution. there could also be a voltage drop caused by a bad chassis to body ground but that is probably only adding to the undersized wires. i tend to think its the latter. the front outlet is also problematic. you are looking at it from the correct perspective and hopefully learned a little about electrical tracing as well. yes indeed! i appreciate everyones help. i was able to do it with my 14-year old son so we both learned a little and had fun most of the time - at the same time. the problem is in the wiring and rewiring the front outlet is really not that big of a deal and just about anyone that has installed a car stereo could do it. good luck with whatever decision you make. if there are problems with both the front and the rear outlets wouldnt it make sense that the problem is elsewhere besides the wiring to each outlet not at all. they will most likely use the same wiring for both and if the shorter front wiring is giving a problem you can bet that the rear one will as well. you can run yourself in circles with this forever but unless you see a significant voltage drop at the battery when you turn your inverter on engine off then it has to be either in the wiring or the socket itself. -- right i agree. what i meant by it makes sense that the problem is elsewhere besides the wiring to each outlet was that it probably wasnt the wiring *directly at* each outlet i.e. the connection to the outlet since the problem is with both outlets but more likely somewhere in the wiring in general. neil .

From : tbone

if the cranking speed seems slow then you replace them. why would you wait until the winter to ge stuck your words were that everything was operating normally. it was. but given the age of the batteries i figured a load test was in order. funny you didnt mention any load test and your reported voltages were all within spec. and what do you thing will show up.. i bet it will be another truck with the capability to jump start yours. yeah and my lack of paranoia would have cost me for a jumpstart and new batteries. then perhaps you should get aaa then your jump starts would be for free. again that is if you wait until the batteries fail. not only do you not wait that long you replace them years before it is needed. really so if i know they are factory batteries and i know those start a downhill spiral at three years and i replaced them at four years whats paranoid about that i mean if im to believe your incessant rants about how mopar puts substandard items in their vehicles i should have replaced the batteries at 24 months correct how do you know that they take this downward spiral some do and others dont. preventive maintenance is also used to cover for paranoia and replacing the wrong parts. i agree that if a battery truly fails a valid load test it should be replaced even if it still sorta works but if the battery simply doesnt show full capability due to age but is still within spec then you are just wasting money and resources. your initial example did not indicate potential failure simply slightly less performance due to age. a 36 month battery goes 48 months and there isnt any potential for failure why do you put such shit batteries in your truck oh thats right just because it has power doesnt mean its actually powered. just because you dont understand..... -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

not at all. they will most likely use the same wiring for both and if the shorter front wiring is giving a problem you can bet that the rear one will as well. you can run yourself in circles with this forever but unless you see a significant voltage drop at the battery when you turn your inverter on engine off then it has to be either in the wiring or the socket itself. so you are saying he should load test the battery using the equipment at hand wow sounds remarkably familiar yet you denied my opinion had any merit. now you seem to share it. no it was a clarification. since the battery was load tested and determined to still have over 600 cca so it is not the problem. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

lol i replied to both of your silly responses go look it up. most of your facts dont have a damn thing to do with the takeover since they are all from around 2003 and up and the takeover happened in 98. dcxs own biased web site also makes it clear that all stockholders meeting happen in germany. so much for a merger of equals lol!!! i saw your reply. and were unable to dispute it. it lacked facts rebuttal and any relevant info. lol it has actual facts that actually have something to do with the actual situation and within the same time line completely unlike the crap you spewed out. simply put you denied the info because it was more current than the actual date of the merger. hahahahahahaha and you have the nerve to talk about my powered comment. how could you have info more current than the merger date when it was the merger and the facts about it that we are talking about. nothing after the fact makes a damn bit of difference because that information was not known when daimler decided to buy chrysler. fact is the original comment was made regarding the present status of the company thus my comments dealt with the current status of the company. lol! you were wrong about the current status of the company as far as ownership and your comments have nothing to do with it either. you have yet to refute the current status of the company in any manner but to deny its statments on its own website. the web site makes it clear who is in charge daimler. just look where every stockholders meeting is held. why would that happen with a merger of equals especially when according to you most of their holdings are on us soil. answer - it wouldnt. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .