OFF TOPIC! -> new site dedicated to open carry

From : nathan w collier

Q: although this is sure to surprise many of you i am working on warming up to open carry. im not willing to sacrifice my tactical advantage of concealed carry but im trying to warm up to the idea none-the-less. if you are already familiar with our sister site http//concealedcarryforum.com im sure youll find yourself at home on our newest sister site http//opencarryforum.com and i hope to see you there. please share the link and get us off to a good start. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com http//militaryandpolice.com .

Replies:

From : zayton

napalmheart olsonfamnospam@iserv.net wrote just because things are done in a particular way in your state doesnt mean theyre done that way anywhere else. the course i attended didnt require any specific score. ken thats just a little scary. steve my vision is 20-400 somebody point me toward the wall with the targets. .

From : napalmheart

nathan w. collier 113@1657.com wrote in message then describe how i threw that frayed wire in lol..im not about to waste my time explaining it again because you were too goddamn stupid to grasp it the first time through. keep up or shut up. - exactly why i did something i rarely do - killfiled the biotch. ken .

From : nathan w collier

its probably less dangerous than my dryer. who said that wrong. just say i was wrong and be done with it. now that ive explained electrical principle to you you know you were wrong. just own it. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : nathan w collier

yes nathan was knowingly and willingly negligent in his failure to inspect the truck youre an idiot. you know nothing of the poles i hit or if they were even capable of doing any damage. youre simply an idiot. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : nathan w collier

havent met your cord. havent seen copies of it dont know where or how they might be in use. translation -- i was wrong nathan...and im an idiot. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : tom lawrence

a local 64 year old man with no prior criminal record was walking down the street wtihin a block of his home with a .44 magnum in his hand. thats not open-carrying... thats brandishing. big difference. .

From : napalmheart

michael everything ok there sure hope the procedure on your back was successful. ken .

From : nathan w collier

anything you want to change nope. just have one thing to add you are an idiot. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote anything you want to change nope. just have one thing to add you are an idiot. you were done a long time ago. .

From : nunya

snip good points made here. fits in well with the training ive had here in mi. ken napalm denny & geyser i am trying to make a point about personal rights here. are yall saying that if a cop came onto your property and took your guns just because he had a misguided belief that he had the right to sidestep the constitution and state law yall would stand for it if so it is just a matter of time before it does happen to you and may be permanetly. b.t.w. the deputy in question did get an official reprimand for his actions. he violated my second amendment rights in addition to my state issued carry permit rights. i have lots of firearms training. in fact i spent about a decade training cops and worked as a range officer for national swat competitions. in none of the training i have received or given was there ever any mention of surrendering your firearms at the whim of an leo on your own property. now had i been in the commision of a crime the circumstances would have been different but i was just protecting my person on my property. had i been on public property i would have handled it differently. in this circumstance an ignorant cop learned a lifetime lesson. that some law abiding citizens are armed and not sheep. also that if you try to violate their rights they will not comply and to furthur complicate the issue they may be on a first name basis with your watch commander and the sheriff. yeah i took a risk in this circumstance but i was well within my legal rights and the cop was not. just because he had a badge does not mean he had the law on his side. when you let someone walk all over you just because they wear a uniform then you have allowed yourself to be violated and not only do you suffer but the community suffers. about three months after this happened the burglar alarm went off at my shop. i live 7 miles from work and the sheriffs office is 3 miles from the office. like in past experiences i beat the deputies to the shop. that is sad considering i was in the bed and had to get dressed grab my gun body armor keys drive across town without running any redlights unlock the gates and front door. my truck was in the parking lot with the flashers on i had the building lights on two doors open and was clearing the building when the first deputies came through the door. the first two admonished me for entering my own building without waiting for them and asked me to put down my weapons. before we could discuss it further a third officer thier watch commander arrived on the scene and hollered through the door sherrifs department! dont shoot me michael! then walked on in. i said howdy do then told him that the first two officers and i were just discussing whether or not i was going to hand over my guns again. he then spent a few minutes explaining to them that a business owner has every right to carry a gun on his own property especially when there was every reason to suspect a burglar on the premises. that once they verify his identity they cannot take his guns. most cops just assume that they are the only people qualified to carry a gun they just dont consider the facts and actual laws. what was funny in this situation was after we finished clearing the building the watch commander who happened to be on the local swat team pulled his new counter sniper rifle out to the trunk to let me play with it. i had to clear it because it was loaded. the other two deputies kinda freaked. they should have realized i was o.k. by then because they had survived the ugly looking laser sighted black gun i was carrying as a primary when they entered my building. next i let him check out my laser sighted m11 and then i played with his new county issued flat top m16. we all chatted about firearms and the good old days when i used to be a free lance tactical firearms trainer for leos before all that got brought under state control. now to see where yall are on another gun related subject... what do yalll think about the harold texas school district arming the teachers and administration. i saw where some school advocate was pitching a fit saying only trained security guards should carry guns at schools. at the columbine incident the trained security gurad was the first person shot... michael the likes to play the devils advocate occassionally mopar freak .

From : geyser

frank wrote /snip soooo... if i have to ask you to leave my place because youre carrying a gun youre going to quietly leave. right you may legally ask someone to leave your place for no reason so long as you havent opened your place for business to the public. once your place is a business open to the public you cant exclude someone because of their race sex whether they are legally carrying a firearm if they are pregnant under 5 feet tall etcetera. do do so could open you to civil and/or criminal action. of course the penalty if any for illegally excluding someone from your place of business will vary with the political makeup of the judiciary overseeing the case. can a restaurant enforce a dress code .

From : frank

/snip soooo... if i have to ask you to leave my place because youre carrying a gun youre going to quietly leave. right you may legally ask someone to leave your place for no reason so long as you havent opened your place for business to the public. once your place is a business open to the public you cant exclude someone because of their race sex whether they are legally carrying a firearm if they are pregnant under 5 feet tall etcetera. do do so could open you to civil and/or criminal action. of course the penalty if any for illegally excluding someone from your place of business will vary with the political makeup of the judiciary overseeing the case. .

From : denny

nunya wrote no actually i was trusting my well being to the fact that i knew i was faster and that in the end i would have my day in court. not a good scenario i admit but sometimes a man has to push a bad position or compromise his principles. better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. i guess this paragraph sums in up very well. you really really need to do some study on this subject not what you read in various forums but your state laws. with your mindset you need to know what is gonna happen when you put your principles into action. and this better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. stuff talk to an attorney about what happens after you pull the trigger. your life will change in ways that you cannot or have not imagined. it doesnt matter whether you are inside the law or not you just entered a whole new life. after having a ccw for numerous years ive learned the grey matter or whats left of it thats between the ears is the best defence there is. cowboy bob stays on the tv set. denny .

From : geyser

nunya wrote snip but in upping the ante you did trust your wellbeing to deputy fife. no actually i was trusting my well being to the fact that i knew i was faster and that in the end i would have my day in court. not a good scenario i admit but sometimes a man has to push a bad position or compromise his principles. better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. ok got it now - you were prepared to kill barney he was ignorant and thus deserved to die. i am not going to be the one of the sheep that gives up my rights because i live in fear of the the g-men. read the below quote. when we as a people stop believing it and living it then america will cease to be the greatest nation on earth. michael they who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. benjamin franklin franklin may have seen farther than you. a bigger picture. like winning a battle but losing the war that sort of thing. .

From : geyser

nunya wrote snip you immediately rearmed yourself against what you had to have a gun in order to ask politely youre a dipshit. lots of folks get shot by jumpy cops and i am not going to be one of them. yes you are highly likely to be one of them. just like the flavorful character. no i rearmed myself as a matter of principle. i showed a lot of restraint when he grabbed my gun by letting go of it. my first thought was to wrestle him over it but thought that may have ended up in somebody getting shot for sure. i was on my on property and well within my rights to have a gun in my hand. he was the one that crossed the line by forcefully taking my legally possesed gun. i was not going to stand there and trust my well being to such an obviously ignorant person. cop or not. but in upping the ante you did trust your wellbeing to deputy fife. i guess you just dont understand the principle here. badge or not he had no right to come onto my private property and take my firearm. in the same circumstance i would do it again. yeah i may catch a bullet for my trouble but i wont be lead to my grave like a sheep. michael the rather be dead than gutless mopar driving madman... your permit is revoked. .

From : geyser

nunya wrote nunya wrote one of our local flavorful characters got gunned down by the cops just the other day because he was carrying an open firearm. of course the official story is highly embellished and rationalized to make the entire scenario seem like the sensible thing to do. a local 64 year old man with no prior criminal record was walking down the street wtihin a block of his home with a .44 magnum in his hand. as tom l. said brandishing is far different. and the old man was already well-known around town as being a bit nutty but you went ahead and embellished the story every-which-way right after warning us that the official story was highly embellished. i think the best part is where you grab your backup gun out of the truck and threaten the deputy with it. *idiot* i never threatened the deputy with my backup. i did rearm myself after he took my gun and then asked him politely to return my primary. you immediately rearmed yourself against what you had to have a gun in order to ask politely youre a dipshit. lots of folks get shot by jumpy cops and i am not going to be one of them. yes you are highly likely to be one of them. just like the flavorful character. michael .

From : nunya

snip dont worry folks. the local mall is completely safe as long as michael is near........ denny denny i appreciate your toms and geysers ability to snip and obvious recognition of netiquitte that top posting is poor manners. some of the people in here act like they have never read a usenet faq. thanx guys. the folks at the local mall dont have to worry about lil ol me. ever since rat shack become the you got questions we got blank stares instead of we got answers place i dont have much use for the mall. last few times i have gone in there looking for resistors or some other such electronic gadget all i can find are chinese made remote control toys and cell phones. of course the odd once or twice a year i do have to wander into the jungle that they call the mall i make sure and stick an extra magazine or two in my pocket. michael the spinning the story just a little different than the rest mopar driving mad man .

From : nunya

nunya wrote one of our local flavorful characters got gunned down by the cops just the other day because he was carrying an open firearm. of course the official story is highly embellished and rationalized to make the entire scenario seem like the sensible thing to do. a local 64 year old man with no prior criminal record was walking down the street wtihin a block of his home with a .44 magnum in his hand. as tom l. said brandishing is far different. and the old man was already well-known around town as being a bit nutty but you went ahead and embellished the story every-which-way right after warning us that the official story was highly embellished. i think the best part is where you grab your backup gun out of the truck and threaten the deputy with it. *idiot* i never threatened the deputy with my backup. i did rearm myself after he took my gun and then asked him politely to return my primary. lots of folks get shot by jumpy cops and i am not going to be one of them. michael .

From : nunya

a local 64 year old man with no prior criminal record was walking down the street wtihin a block of his home with a .44 magnum in his hand. thats not open-carrying... thats brandishing. big difference. he was within a block of his home carrying the gun by the muzzle like one would carry a hammer. the funny thing is at least a dozen locals had seen him earlier that morning and thought nothing of it because it was a normal action of his. in fact one eye witness to the out of town off duty cop stopping to question him said his first thought was why is this guy hasseling a mr . brandishing is when you either point or threaten. i walk to my truck from my business and then get out of my truck and lock the gate with my pistol in my hand most times that i lock up after dark. it is not brandishing. michael .

From : geyser

nunya wrote one of our local flavorful characters got gunned down by the cops just the other day because he was carrying an open firearm. of course the official story is highly embellished and rationalized to make the entire scenario seem like the sensible thing to do. a local 64 year old man with no prior criminal record was walking down the street wtihin a block of his home with a .44 magnum in his hand. as tom l. said brandishing is far different. and the old man was already well-known around town as being a bit nutty but you went ahead and embellished the story every-which-way right after warning us that the official story was highly embellished. i think the best part is where you grab your backup gun out of the truck and threaten the deputy with it. *idiot* .

From : nunya

although this is sure to surprise many of you i am working on warming up to open carry. im not willing to sacrifice my tactical advantage of concealed carry but im trying to warm up to the idea none-the-less. if you are already familiar with our sister site http//concealedcarryforum.com im sure youll find yourself at home on our newest sister site http//opencarryforum.com and i hope to see you there. please share the link and get us off to a good start. -- nathan in montana one of our local flavorful characters got gunned down by the cops just the other day because he was carrying an open firearm. of course the official story is highly embellished and rationalized to make the entire scenario seem like the sensible thing to do. a local 64 year old man with no prior criminal record was walking down the street wtihin a block of his home with a .44 magnum in his hand. a out of town off duty police officer decided to stop and hassle him about his weapon. old man and cop exchange words and the old man walks the final block to his trailer home. off duty cop calls the local sheriffs office who send three deputies to the mans home and when he refuses to answer the door they make a power play. in the ensuing madness one of the deputies catches a round in the arm. sheriff dispatches the swat team and they shoot the old man 11 times. now there were mistakes made on all sides. but if the off duty cop had left the old man alone the situation would have never escalated to what happened. the moral of the story is this. cops shouldnt hassle people for being within their rights. when they do they should expect the odd old timer to get a little flakey. then if they then decide to bust down his door they might want to be careful when they do it. if the g-men decide to bust down your door and you shoot one of them you can expect the swat team to come fill you full of holes. that is also a good lesson for the peanut gallery. even though this man had never committed a crime in his life he still got killed over a misunderstanding. it was well known around the community that he had a strong distrust of all government officials. had he been left alone in the first place or just approached a little more tactfully there would not have been a deputy shot and him killed in the process. the number one rising crime in my area are home invasions. most of the perpetrators of this crime masquerade as police officers. anybody and i mean anybody kicks in my door during the middle of the night without warning is going to wish they hadnt. not many cops have the body armor it takes to stop my primary home defense weapon. i have informed several key members of my local law enforcement community that if they ever have a warrant to serve on me they might want to call me and give me a heads up. my home is posted with warning signs that i will not tolerate a no-knock warrant served by anyone. i am a law abiding tax paying citizen and expect that i have the right to defend my family from unknown threats. i believe that is plenty fair. currently i am still at work trying to wrap my day up. it is after midnight here on the east coast. when i go to lock up the business and the gates i will be carrying a pistol in plain sight. i do that anytime i lock up after dark. i believe it has kept me from being approached by undesirables on more than one occasion. a couple of years ago i had a local deputy tell me i could not carry on my property because it made him nervous. i explained that this was my property to about five feet beyond the gate i had the right to carry openly on my property and i also had a firearms permit which allows me to carry concealed or openly most anywhere in the state. he argued with me and actually reached out and grabbed my gun and was lucky that i restrained myself from shooting him. i reached into my truck removed my backup and asked for my primary to be returned. yall should have seen the look on his face. the next day i had a word with his watch commander and i assume he has a clue now as to a business owners rights on his own property. i have been carrying a firearm since i was 12 years old. in 33 years my guns have never hurt anyone and on a couple of occasions have actually been used to protect life and property. anyone that refuses to own or carry a gun on some sort of ignorant principle deserves the repurcussions of his actions when they happen. but does his family deserve to be put in jeapordy because he is unable to protect them from someone with evil intentions i believe there is a special little corner of hell reserved for the man that does not take steps to protect his family in the best manner he has legally available to him. what is the peace freak going to do if some armed nut comes to get his wife or kids tell the bad guy he doesnt believe in guns so please go away get a clue... michael

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote you are the subject not the cord. lol...so you admit that my cord is not dangerous afterall...and in doing so you admit that you are an idiot for ever claiming it was. glad we got that straight. havent met your cord. havent seen copies of it dont know where or how they might be in use. .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote i can only consider possibilities that come to mind. coming from you im certain that would be a very short list. - nah it just keeps growing. and ill share it. crissy can pretend that hed have foreseen what happened it doesnt bother me. hell remember it. maybe i just saved his life sometime in the future. youll remember it too. .

From : steveb toquerville zionvistas

napalmheart olsonfamnospam@iserv.net wrote just because things are done in a particular way in your state doesnt mean theyre done that way anywhere else. the course i attended didnt require any specific score. ken thats just a little scary. steve .

From : nathan w collier

youre getting so emotional. nah...im shaking my head in disbelief. lol. you are an idiot. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : nathan w collier

what do you know about the posts now what did you know then i feel quite positive that i know far more about the posts than you pretend to. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : christopher d thompson

on mon 29 sep 2008 203149 -0700 miles wrote now nobody whine about me and tbone on our discussions!! this one beats em all!! lol we still reserve that right. -- chris .

From : tom lawrence

it was based more on gun safety and the legal aspects. the targets werent even scored. at 21 yards my groups could have easily been covered with a half-dollar and i was shooting fast. ummm... i thnk you mean 21 feet. a 1 group at 21 yards rapid-fire is beyond even most national champions. .

From : beryl

iman nassoul wrote flyingterrapin@chillybits.org wrote texas... the national state of texas. think they always should have been their own country ready to secede. thats the *republic of texas.* texas was their own country 1835-1845. yeah i got the national beer of texas mixed up with that. in texas you must have a license to carry and the handgun must be concealed. you do not see texans waving gns around as described previously. criminals have to be careful about holding up someone in texas because they never know who will be packin heat. .

From : iman nassoul

flyingterrapin@chillybits.org wrote texas... the national state of texas. think they always should have been their own country ready to secede. thats the *republic of texas.* texas was their own country 1835-1845. in texas you must have a license to carry and the handgun must be concealed. you do not see texans waving gns around as described previously. criminals have to be careful about holding up someone in texas because they never know who will be packin heat. .

From : beryl

denny wrote the gun rack is sorta like the curio cabinet at grandmas house. you get to show off your stuff. some will make quite a display of it. in ohio to carry a long gun it had to be in plain sight. that was the reason for the rear window gun racks in pick up trucks. most people that i knew had a rack over the glass near the headliner where you could still see it but not as noticeable. i always felt showing off a rifle in the back glass was an invitation for someone to steal it when given the chance. denny okay you found responsible gun owners in ohio. what do you think of scofflaw ken smuggling his gun into places where he knows its prohibited .

From : beryl

wolfie wrote on jul 31 553 pm beryl flyingterra...@chillybits.org wrote jmc wrote suddenly without warning beryl exclaimed 7/30/2008 623 pm wolfie wrote your concept of open carry is as ludicrous as your suggestion. if you intend to take a position in opposition to something why not have a minimal understanding of that to which you are opposed your flashing lights model simply doesnt exist in the real world. yes it does exist. i lived in texas for a few years saw flashing lights kooks make their statements in the form of pickup rear window gun rack displays. i remember one display was a big axe handle - yep just a handle! - that had there will be peace prominently scrawled in large letters with a broad felt marker. what does a rifle rack in a truck have to do with open carry two different animals completely there. at least thats the way i understand it it can be legal to have a truck rifle rack but illegal to carry a pistol around on your person concealed or not. jmc where carrying pistols is illegal you do what else you can. im sure that mr. axe handle would have taken full advantage of oregons laws if he were there. i take full advantage of oregons laws with respect to open and concealed carry. those laws do not encourage or authorize intimidation or brandishing. why do you insist on characterizing an openly armed populace as violent and barbaric and all a-bristle with guns bells lights and whistles where are those people here where its legal or are they all in texas where it is not texas... the national state of texas. think they always should have been their own country ready to secede. barbaric fits its entertainment youll see really graphic stuff on tv thats distasteful and unacceptable in other states. oregonions dont have the attitude. im in callyfornia. scofflaw ken is in michigan. ethical standards might be low there. i insist on characterizing you as kooks because im on the opposing side. how about that church shotgunner in tennessee that did the deed because he hates liberals wolfie the gun rack is sorta like the curio cabinet at grandmas house. you get to show off your stuff. some will make quite a display of it.- hide quoted text - - show quoted text - must be some way you google posters can get rid of all the - show quoted text - hide quoted text - crap no .

From : denny

the gun rack is sorta like the curio cabinet at grandmas house. you get to show off your stuff. some will make quite a display of it. in ohio to carry a long gun it had to be in plain sight. that was the reason for the rear window gun racks in pick up trucks. most people that i knew had a rack over the glass near the headliner where you could still see it but not as noticeable. i always felt showing off a rifle in the back glass was an invitation for someone to steal it when given the chance. denny .

From : wolfie

on jul 31 553=a0pm beryl flyingterra...@chillybits.org wrote jmc wrote suddenly without warning beryl exclaimed 7/30/2008 623 pm wolfie wrote your concept of open carry is as ludicrous as your suggestion. =a0if = you intend to take a position in opposition to something why not have a minimal understanding of that to which you are opposed =a0your flashing lights model simply doesnt exist in the real world. yes it does exist. i lived in texas for a few years saw flashing lights kooks make their statements in the form of pickup rear window gun rack displays. i remember one display was a big axe handle - yep just a handle! - that had there will be peace prominently scrawled in large letters with a broad felt marker. what does a rifle rack in a truck have to do with open carry =a0two different animals completely there. =a0at least thats the way i understand it =a0it can be legal to have a truck rifle rack but illega= l to carry a pistol around on your person concealed or not. jmc where carrying pistols is illegal you do what else you can. im sure that mr. axe handle would have taken full advantage of oregons laws if he were there. i take full advantage of oregons laws with respect to open and concealed carry. those laws do not encourage or authorize intimidation or brandishing. why do you insist on characterizing an openly armed populace as violent and barbaric and all a-bristle with guns bells lights and whistles where are those people here where its legal or are they all in texas where it is not wolfie the gun rack is sorta like the curio cabinet at grandmas house. you get to show off your stuff. some will make quite a display of it.- hide quote= d text - - show quoted text - .

From : beryl

jmc wrote suddenly without warning beryl exclaimed 7/30/2008 623 pm wolfie wrote your concept of open carry is as ludicrous as your suggestion. if you intend to take a position in opposition to something why not have a minimal understanding of that to which you are opposed your flashing lights model simply doesnt exist in the real world. yes it does exist. i lived in texas for a few years saw flashing lights kooks make their statements in the form of pickup rear window gun rack displays. i remember one display was a big axe handle - yep just a handle! - that had there will be peace prominently scrawled in large letters with a broad felt marker. what does a rifle rack in a truck have to do with open carry two different animals completely there. at least thats the way i understand it it can be legal to have a truck rifle rack but illegal to carry a pistol around on your person concealed or not. jmc where carrying pistols is illegal you do what else you can. im sure that mr. axe handle would have taken full advantage of oregons laws if he were there. the gun rack is sorta like the curio cabinet at grandmas house. you get to show off your stuff. some will make quite a display of it. .

From : beryl

wolfie wrote on jul 31 410 pm napalmheart olsonfamnos...@iserv.net wrote on jul 31 1216 am beryl flyingterra...@chillybits.org wrote wolfie wrote on jul 30 758 pm beryl flyingterra...@chillybits.org wrote wolfie wrote on jul 30 323 pm beryl flyingterra...@chillybits.org wrote wolfie wrote on jul 29 1016 pm john h. guillory jo...@communicomm.com wrote on mon 28 jul 2008 052439 -0700 pdt wolfie dplusone...@aim.com wrote and i feel fairly certain that if i came into your business establishment somewhere in *my* country where it is legal to carry openly you wouldnt have the nerve to refuse me service because i was strapped. i rather suspect youd be hiding somewhere in back with the other ladies. no id tell you once and if you refused to leave id have someone escort you off the property. if you feel that your wearing a gun on your hip with flashing lights to let everyone know its there is going to make you more of a man then perhaps you need someone to point a gun to your head and squeeze the trigger to see if it has any bullets in it before you understand how fucking stupid you are. its apparent youre confusing me with someone else. i never said anything about flashing lights or manhood. and there are more sensible ways of determining whether a firearm is loaded than pulling the trigger. whos fucking stupid your concept of open carry is as ludicrous as your suggestion. if you intend to take a position in opposition to something why not have a minimal understanding of that to which you are opposed your flashing lights model simply doesnt exist in the real world. yes it does exist. i lived in texas for a few years saw flashing lights kooks make their statements in the form of pickup rear window gun rack displays. i remember one display was a big axe handle - yep just a handle! - that had there will be peace prominently scrawled in large letters with a broad felt marker. wolfie- hide quoted text - - show quoted text -- hide quoted text - - show quoted text - i lived in texas for a few years lol! well there ya go. thatll qualify you to hold forth on anything. itll only qualify me to tell what ive seen but thats enough to thoroughly wipe away your simply doesnt exist claim. well lets see. for a model construct of your proposed flashing lit openly carrying legally armed american youre using an *unarmed citizen of a state that forbids open carry* and thats because you used to live there and saw some rednecks if youre going to set up a model would it not be more effective if you used examples of real situations as they presently exist like the citizens of an open carry state ok lets try this. for over 30 years ive lived in an open carry state. ive never seen anything resembling the openly carrying individual you describe. ive carried legally for over 35 years; never seen the neon cowboy you propose as the typical open carry. i can only base my conclusion and opinions on my own real experiences and obvservations. never seen the neon cowboy lol! well there ya go. you havent seen it therefore it simply doesnt exist. yes texas has its blatant neon cowboys like the ridiculous goof displaying an axe handle. of course i wouldnt call him that to his face or else id get beat to death with an axe handle. if you never see them in oregon im glad to hear it. soooo... if i have to ask you to leave my place because youre carrying a gun youre going to quietly leave. right- hide quoted text - - show quoted text - lol! well there ya go. you havent seen it therefore it simply doesnt exist whats *really* strange is youve never seen it and it does exist. g wolfie i wonder how many places ive gone into while legally armed and concealed where the owner/manager believed the delusion that their prohibition of firearms made their business any safer ken- hide quoted text - - show quoted text - good point ken. im still not sure what those in opposition to open carry are afraid of. another very good point - ken is an apparent scofflaw. ken cant be legally armed at how many places if the management prohibits it yet hes done it so often that hes lost count. so to clear it up for you id be fearful of those like ken who feel theyre entitled to ignore the rules whenever they choose. there are any number of models of communities all the way up to state-size where open-carry has been practiced for a long time. if there were any instances of an increase in crime or shootings related to legal open-carry its very likely someone would have put it up on a billboard somewhere by now. statistics show whatever someone wants them to show. but the nanny mentality is deeply rooted. always gonna be someone who believes they know whats best for the rest of us no matter what the rest of us say. thats ken. he knows whats best for everyone else no matter what they say. wolfie .

From : wolfie

on jul 31 410=a0pm napalmheart olsonfamnos...@iserv.net wrote on jul 31 1216 am beryl flyingterra...@chillybits.org wrote wolfie wrote on jul 30 758 pm beryl flyingterra...@chillybits.org wrote wolfie wrote on jul 30 323 pm beryl flyingterra...@chillybits.org wrote wolfie wrote on jul 29 1016 pm john h. guillory jo...@communicomm.com wrote on mon 28 jul 2008 052439 -0700 pdt wolfie dplusone...@aim.com wrote and i feel fairly certain that if i came into your business establishment somewhere in *my* country where it is legal to carry openly you wouldnt have the nerve to refuse me service because i was strapped. i rather suspect youd be hiding somewhere in back with the other ladies. no id tell you once and if you refused to leave id have someone escort you off the property. if you feel that your wearing a gun on your hip with flashing lights to let everyone know its there is going to make you more of a man then perhaps you need someone to point a gun to your head and squeeze the trigger to see if it has any bullets in it before you understand how fucking stupid you are. its apparent youre confusing me with someone else. i never said anything about flashing lights or manhood. and there are more sensible ways of determining whether a firearm is loaded than pulling the trigger. whos fucking stupid your concept of open carry is as ludicrous as your suggestion. if you intend to take a position in opposition to something why not have a minimal understanding of that to which you are opposed your flashing lights model simply doesnt exist in the real world. yes it does exist. i lived in texas for a few years saw flashing lights kooks make their statements in the form of pickup rear window gun rack displays. i remember one display was a big axe handle - yep just a handle! - that had there will be peace prominently scrawled in large letters with a broad felt marker. wolfie- hide quoted text - - show quoted text -- hide quoted text - - show quoted text - i lived in texas for a few years lol! well there ya go. thatll qualify you to hold forth on anything. itll only qualify me to tell what ive seen but thats enough to thoroughly wipe away your simply doesnt exist claim. well lets see. for a model construct of your proposed flashing lit openly carrying legally armed american youre using an *unarmed citizen of a state that forbids open carry* and thats because you used to live there and saw some rednecks if youre going to set up a model would it not be more effective if you used examples of real situations as they presently exist like the citizens of an open carry state ok lets try this. for over 30 years ive lived in an open carry state. ive never seen anything resembling the openly carrying individual you describe. ive carried legally for over 35 years; never seen the neon cowboy you propose as the typical open carry. i can only base my conclusion and opinions on my own real experiences and obvservations. never seen the neon cowboy lol! well there ya go. you havent seen it therefore it simply doesnt exist. yes texas has its blatant neon cowboys like the ridiculous goof displaying an axe handle. of course i wouldnt call him that to his face or else id get beat to death with an axe handle. if you never see them in oregon im glad to hear it. soooo... if i have to ask you to leave my place because youre carrying a gun youre going to quietly leave. right- hide quoted text - - show quoted text - lol! well there ya go. you havent seen it therefore it simply doesnt exist whats *really* strange is youve never seen it and it does exist. g wolfie i wonder how many places ive gone into while legally armed and concealed where the owner/manager believed the delusion that their prohibition of firearms made their business any safer ken- hide quoted text - - show quoted text - good point ken. im still not sure what those in opposition to open carry are afraid of. there are any number of models of communities all the way up to state-size where open-carry has been practiced for a long time. if there were any instances of an increase in crime or shootings related to legal open-carry its very likely someone would have put it up on a billboard somewhere by now. but the nanny mentality is deeply rooted. always gonna be someone who believes they know whats best for the rest of us no matter what the rest of us say. wolfie .

From : roy

suddenly without warning nathan w. collier exclaimed 7/28/2008 221 am yeah like the right to kill someone for charging you for the gas you put in your car the beer you want to drink! its all about the right to shoot your wife when she doesnt want to have sex with you or shoot your teacher because you got a b and you thought you should have an a! wow...you are an absolute idiot. yes he is. i lived in two countries where guns are effectively banned. did it stop the sort of crime mentioned nah. they just used knives instead or a bat or their car. oh and rocks. cant forget the people that have been killed and injured using rocks. want to outlaw them too and the crime rate wasnt any lower than when ive lived in states that allow carry whether concealed or not. in fact it was higher; crime rates have nothing to do with gun laws at all. gaaah. brainwashed is right. a gun is a tool like a knife. its not the gun/knife/bat thats evil its the asshole using it inappropriately. jmc nice to see ya back. .

From : napalmheart

on jul 31 1216 am beryl flyingterra...@chillybits.org wrote wolfie wrote on jul 30 758 pm beryl flyingterra...@chillybits.org wrote wolfie wrote on jul 30 323 pm beryl flyingterra...@chillybits.org wrote wolfie wrote on jul 29 1016 pm john h. guillory jo...@communicomm.com wrote on mon 28 jul 2008 052439 -0700 pdt wolfie dplusone...@aim.com wrote and i feel fairly certain that if i came into your business establishment somewhere in *my* country where it is legal to carry openly you wouldnt have the nerve to refuse me service because i was strapped. i rather suspect youd be hiding somewhere in back with the other ladies. no id tell you once and if you refused to leave id have someone escort you off the property. if you feel that your wearing a gun on your hip with flashing lights to let everyone know its there is going to make you more of a man then perhaps you need someone to point a gun to your head and squeeze the trigger to see if it has any bullets in it before you understand how fucking stupid you are. its apparent youre confusing me with someone else. i never said anything about flashing lights or manhood. and there are more sensible ways of determining whether a firearm is loaded than pulling the trigger. whos fucking stupid your concept of open carry is as ludicrous as your suggestion. if you intend to take a position in opposition to something why not have a minimal understanding of that to which you are opposed your flashing lights model simply doesnt exist in the real world. yes it does exist. i lived in texas for a few years saw flashing lights kooks make their statements in the form of pickup rear window gun rack displays. i remember one display was a big axe handle - yep just a handle! - that had there will be peace prominently scrawled in large letters with a broad felt marker. wolfie- hide quoted text - - show quoted text -- hide quoted text - - show quoted text - i lived in texas for a few years lol! well there ya go. thatll qualify you to hold forth on anything. itll only qualify me to tell what ive seen but thats enough to thoroughly wipe away your simply doesnt exist claim. well lets see. for a model construct of your proposed flashing lit openly carrying legally armed american youre using an *unarmed citizen of a state that forbids open carry* and thats because you used to live there and saw some rednecks if youre going to set up a model would it not be more effective if you used examples of real situations as they presently exist like the citizens of an open carry state ok lets try this. for over 30 years ive lived in an open carry state. ive never seen anything resembling the openly carrying individual you describe. ive carried legally for over 35 years; never seen the neon cowboy you propose as the typical open carry. i can only base my conclusion and opinions on my own real experiences and obvservations. never seen the neon cowboy lol! well there ya go. you havent seen it therefore it simply doesnt exist. yes texas has its blatant neon cowboys like the ridiculous goof displaying an axe handle. of course i wouldnt call him that to his face or else id get beat to death with an axe handle. if you never see them in oregon im glad to hear it. soooo... if i have to ask you to leave my place because youre carrying a gun youre going to quietly leave. right- hide quoted text - - show quoted text - lol! well there ya go. you havent seen it therefore it simply doesnt exist whats *really* strange is youve never seen it and it does exist. g wolfie i wonder how many places ive gone into while legally armed and concealed where the owner/manager believed the delusion that their prohibition of firearms made their business any safer ken .

From : jmc

suddenly without warning nathan w. collier exclaimed 7/28/2008 221 am yeah like the right to kill someone for charging you for the gas you put in your car the beer you want to drink! its all about the right to shoot your wife when she doesnt want to have sex with you or shoot your teacher because you got a b and you thought you should have an a! wow...you are an absolute idiot. yes he is. i lived in two countries where guns are effectively banned. did it stop the sort of crime mentioned nah. they just used knives instead or a bat or their car. oh and rocks. cant forget the people that have been killed and injured using rocks. want to outlaw them too and the crime rate wasnt any lower than when ive lived in states that allow carry whether concealed or not. in fact it was higher; crime rates have nothing to do with gun laws at all. gaaah. brainwashed is right. a gun is a tool like a knife. its not the gun/knife/bat thats evil its the asshole using it inappropriately. jmc .

From : jmc

suddenly without warning christopher d. thompson exclaimed 7/31/2008 1003 am on thu 31 jul 2008 001644 -0700 beryl wrote soooo... if i have to ask you to leave my place because youre carrying a gun youre going to quietly leave. right right after making it clear that my money will never see the light of day anywhere near your business. and ill be sure that all my friends who carry also by the way know of your anti 2nd amendment stance and will never do business their either. youd be surprised how much business you would loose over the simple act of trying to restrict my constitutional rights. yes i would most definitely leave. then tell everyone i know how you want your business to be ready for the criminal who wants to rob you and your customers. i second that and i dont even *own* a firearm much less carry one - not yet anyway. hubby has enough for both of us g. i am a big believer in protecting all our constitutional rights though. jmc .

From : jmc

suddenly without warning beryl exclaimed 7/30/2008 623 pm wolfie wrote your concept of open carry is as ludicrous as your suggestion. if you intend to take a position in opposition to something why not have a minimal understanding of that to which you are opposed your flashing lights model simply doesnt exist in the real world. yes it does exist. i lived in texas for a few years saw flashing lights kooks make their statements in the form of pickup rear window gun rack displays. i remember one display was a big axe handle - yep just a handle! - that had there will be peace prominently scrawled in large letters with a broad felt marker. what does a rifle rack in a truck have to do with open carry two different animals completely there. at least thats the way i understand it it can be legal to have a truck rifle rack but illegal to carry a pistol around on your person concealed or not. jmc .

From : beryl

wolfie wrote on jul 31 1216 am beryl flyingterra...@chillybits.org wrote lol! well there ya go. you havent seen it therefore it simply doesnt exist whats *really* strange is youve never seen it and it does exist. g i said i saw it in the form of. the blinking led stuff was satire. i dont think theyre required to qualify a threat as blatant the axe handle cowboy made himself plenty clear without lights. i had the chance to hug the worlds largest sitka spruce in seaside oregon before a storm took it down last year. we were tempted to buy a magical few acres nearby right alongside the necanicum river. someday... .

From : beryl

christopher d. thompson wrote on thu 31 jul 2008 001644 -0700 beryl wrote soooo... if i have to ask you to leave my place because youre carrying a gun youre going to quietly leave. right right after making it clear that my money will never see the light of day anywhere near your business. and ill be sure that all my friends who carry also by the way know of your anti 2nd amendment stance and will never do business their either. youd be surprised how much business you would loose over the simple act of trying to restrict my constitutional rights. yes i would most definitely leave. then tell everyone i know how you want your business to be ready for the criminal who wants to rob you and your customers. sounds fair. thanks! .

From : wolfie

on jul 31 1216=a0am beryl flyingterra...@chillybits.org wrote wolfie wrote on jul 30 758 pm beryl flyingterra...@chillybits.org wrote wolfie wrote on jul 30 323 pm beryl flyingterra...@chillybits.org wrote wolfie wrote on jul 29 1016 pm john h. guillory jo...@communicomm.com wrote= on mon 28 jul 2008 052439 -0700 pdt wolfie dplusone...@aim.= com wrote and i feel fairly certain that if i came into your business establishment somewhere in *my* country where it is legal to car= ry openly you wouldnt have the nerve to refuse me service because = i was strapped. =a0i rather suspect youd be hiding somewhere in back w= ith the other ladies. no id tell you once and if you refused to leave id have someon= e escort you off the property. =a0if you feel that your wearing a gu= n on your hip with flashing lights to let everyone know its there is go= ing to make you more of a man then perhaps you need someone to point = a gun to your head and squeeze the trigger to see if it has any bull= ets in it before you understand how fucking stupid you are. its apparent youre confusing me with someone else. =a0i never sai= d anything about flashing lights or manhood. =a0and there are more sensible ways of determining whether a firearm is loaded than pulli= ng the trigger. =a0whos fucking stupid your concept of open carry is as ludicrous as your suggestion. =a0i= f you intend to take a position in opposition to something why not have = a minimal understanding of that to which you are opposed =a0your flashing lights model simply doesnt exist in the real world. yes it does exist. i lived in texas for a few years saw flashing lights kooks make their statements in the form of pickup rear windo= w gun rack displays. i remember one display was a big axe handle - yep just a handle! - = that had there will be peace prominently scrawled in large letters with= a broad felt marker. wolfie- hide quoted text - - show quoted text -- hide quoted text - - show quoted text - i lived in texas for a few years lol! =a0well there ya go. =a0thatll qualify you to hold forth on anything. itll only qualify me to tell what ive seen but thats enough to thoroughly wipe away your simply doesnt exist claim. well lets see. =a0for a model construct of your proposed flashing lit= openly carrying legally armed american youre using an *unarmed citizen of a state that forbids open carry* =a0and thats =a0because y= ou used to live there and saw some rednecks =a0if youre going to set up = a model would it not be more effective if you used examples of real situations as they presently exist =a0like the citizens of an open carry state ok lets try this. =a0for over 30 years ive lived in an open carry state. =a0ive never seen anything resembling the openly carrying individual you describe. =a0ive carried legally for over 35 years; never seen the neon cowboy you propose as the typical open carry. i can only base my conclusion and opinions on my own real experiences and obvservations. never seen the neon cowboy lol! well there ya go. you havent seen it therefore it simply doesnt exist. yes texas has its blatant neon cowboys like the ridiculous goof displaying an axe handle. of course i wouldnt call him that to his face or else id get beat to death with an axe handle. if you never see them in oregon im glad to hear it. soooo... if i have to ask you to leave my place because youre carrying a gun youre going to quietly leave. right- hide quoted text - - show quoted text - lol! well there ya go. you havent seen it therefore it simply doesnt exist whats *really* strange is youve never seen it and it does exist. g wolfie .

From : rm v2 0

on sun 27 jul 2008 234407 -0700 bud k7kkg@yahoo.com wrote you sure have a low opinion of yourself i can see that what youre doing in this post is projecting what actions you might take if you ever owned a gun. you sure arent taking about gun owners that are effected by laws. that was you that swolled the hand-grenade swolled .

From : christopher d thompson

on thu 31 jul 2008 001644 -0700 beryl wrote soooo... if i have to ask you to leave my place because youre carrying a gun youre going to quietly leave. right right after making it clear that my money will never see the light of day anywhere near your business. and ill be sure that all my friends who carry also by the way know of your anti 2nd amendment stance and will never do business their either. youd be surprised how much business you would loose over the simple act of trying to restrict my constitutional rights. yes i would most definitely leave. then tell everyone i know how you want your business to be ready for the criminal who wants to rob you and your customers. -- chris .

From : beryl

wolfie wrote on jul 30 758 pm beryl flyingterra...@chillybits.org wrote wolfie wrote on jul 30 323 pm beryl flyingterra...@chillybits.org wrote wolfie wrote on jul 29 1016 pm john h. guillory jo...@communicomm.com wrote on mon 28 jul 2008 052439 -0700 pdt wolfie dplusone...@aim.com wrote and i feel fairly certain that if i came into your business establishment somewhere in *my* country where it is legal to carry openly you wouldnt have the nerve to refuse me service because i was strapped. i rather suspect youd be hiding somewhere in back with the other ladies. no id tell you once and if you refused to leave id have someone escort you off the property. if you feel that your wearing a gun on your hip with flashing lights to let everyone know its there is going to make you more of a man then perhaps you need someone to point a gun to your head and squeeze the trigger to see if it has any bullets in it before you understand how fucking stupid you are. its apparent youre confusing me with someone else. i never said anything about flashing lights or manhood. and there are more sensible ways of determining whether a firearm is loaded than pulling the trigger. whos fucking stupid your concept of open carry is as ludicrous as your suggestion. if you intend to take a position in opposition to something why not have a minimal understanding of that to which you are opposed your flashing lights model simply doesnt exist in the real world. yes it does exist. i lived in texas for a few years saw flashing lights kooks make their statements in the form of pickup rear window gun rack displays. i remember one display was a big axe handle - yep just a handle! - that had there will be peace prominently scrawled in large letters with a broad felt marker. wolfie- hide quoted text - - show quoted text -- hide quoted text - - show quoted text - i lived in texas for a few years lol! well there ya go. thatll qualify you to hold forth on anything. itll only qualify me to tell what ive seen but thats enough to thoroughly wipe away your simply doesnt exist claim. well lets see. for a model construct of your proposed flashing lit openly carrying legally armed american youre using an *unarmed citizen of a state that forbids open carry* and thats because you used to live there and saw some rednecks if youre going to set up a model would it not be more effective if you used examples of real situations as they presently exist like the citizens of an open carry state ok lets try this. for over 30 years ive lived in an open carry state. ive never seen anything resembling the openly carrying individual you describe. ive carried legally for over 35 years; never seen the neon cowboy you propose as the typical open carry. i can only base my conclusion and opinions on my own real experiences and obvservations. never seen the neon cowboy lol! well there ya go. you havent seen it therefore it simply doesnt exist. yes texas has its blatant neon cowboys like the ridiculous goof displaying an axe handle. of course i wouldnt call him that to his face or else id get beat to death with an axe handle. if you never see them in oregon im glad to hear it. soooo... if i have to ask you to leave my place because youre carrying a gun youre going to quietly leave. right .

From : beryl

john h. guillory wrote on mon 28 jul 2008 052439 -0700 pdt wolfie dplusoneusa@aim.com wrote and i feel fairly certain that if i came into your business establishment somewhere in *my* country where it is legal to carry openly you wouldnt have the nerve to refuse me service because i was strapped. i rather suspect youd be hiding somewhere in back with the other ladies. no id tell you once and if you refused to leave id have someone escort you off the property. if you feel that your wearing a gun on your hip with flashing lights to let everyone know its there is going to make you more of a man then perhaps you need someone to point a gun to your head and squeeze the trigger to see if it has any bullets in it before you understand how fucking stupid you are. youre safe here with wolfie turns out to be pure hogwash. hes a kook not defending his right but asserting it. in your face. wolfie isnt the flashing lights type so he wont be easy to pick out. but do pick him out. .

From : wolfie

on jul 30 758=a0pm beryl flyingterra...@chillybits.org wrote wolfie wrote on jul 30 323 pm beryl flyingterra...@chillybits.org wrote wolfie wrote on jul 29 1016 pm john h. guillory jo...@communicomm.com wrote on mon 28 jul 2008 052439 -0700 pdt wolfie dplusone...@aim.co= m wrote and i feel fairly certain that if i came into your business establishment somewhere in *my* country where it is legal to carry openly you wouldnt have the nerve to refuse me service because i = was strapped. =a0i rather suspect youd be hiding somewhere in back wit= h the other ladies. no id tell you once and if you refused to leave id have someone escort you off the property. =a0if you feel that your wearing a gun = on your hip with flashing lights to let everyone know its there is goin= g to make you more of a man then perhaps you need someone to point a gun to your head and squeeze the trigger to see if it has any bullet= s in it before you understand how fucking stupid you are. its apparent youre confusing me with someone else. =a0i never said anything about flashing lights or manhood. =a0and there are more sensible ways of determining whether a firearm is loaded than pulling the trigger. =a0whos fucking stupid your concept of open carry is as ludicrous as your suggestion. =a0if = you intend to take a position in opposition to something why not have a minimal understanding of that to which you are opposed =a0your flashing lights model simply doesnt exist in the real world. yes it does exist. i lived in texas for a few years saw flashing lights kooks make their statements in the form of pickup rear window gun rack displays. i remember one display was a big axe handle - yep just a handle! - th= at had there will be peace prominently scrawled in large letters with a broad felt marker. wolfie- hide quoted text - - show quoted text -- hide quoted text - - show quoted text - i lived in texas for a few years lol! =a0well there ya go. =a0thatll qualify you to hold forth on anything. itll only qualify me to tell what ive seen but thats enough to thoroughly wipe away your simply doesnt exist claim. well lets see. for a model construct of your proposed flashing lit openly carrying legally armed american youre using an *unarmed citizen of a state that forbids open carry* and thats because you used to live there and saw some rednecks if youre going to set up a model would it not be more effective if you used examples of real situations as they presently exist like the citizens of an open carry state ok lets try this. for over 30 years ive lived in an open carry state. ive never seen anything resembling the openly carrying individual you describe. ive carried legally for over 35 years; never seen the neon cowboy you propose as the typical open carry. i can only base my conclusion and opinions on my own real experiences and obvservations. wolfie .

From : beryl

wolfie wrote on jul 30 323 pm beryl flyingterra...@chillybits.org wrote wolfie wrote on jul 29 1016 pm john h. guillory jo...@communicomm.com wrote on mon 28 jul 2008 052439 -0700 pdt wolfie dplusone...@aim.com wrote and i feel fairly certain that if i came into your business establishment somewhere in *my* country where it is legal to carry openly you wouldnt have the nerve to refuse me service because i was strapped. i rather suspect youd be hiding somewhere in back with the other ladies. no id tell you once and if you refused to leave id have someone escort you off the property. if you feel that your wearing a gun on your hip with flashing lights to let everyone know its there is going to make you more of a man then perhaps you need someone to point a gun to your head and squeeze the trigger to see if it has any bullets in it before you understand how fucking stupid you are. its apparent youre confusing me with someone else. i never said anything about flashing lights or manhood. and there are more sensible ways of determining whether a firearm is loaded than pulling the trigger. whos fucking stupid your concept of open carry is as ludicrous as your suggestion. if you intend to take a position in opposition to something why not have a minimal understanding of that to which you are opposed your flashing lights model simply doesnt exist in the real world. yes it does exist. i lived in texas for a few years saw flashing lights kooks make their statements in the form of pickup rear window gun rack displays. i remember one display was a big axe handle - yep just a handle! - that had there will be peace prominently scrawled in large letters with a broad felt marker. wolfie- hide quoted text - - show quoted text -- hide quoted text - - show quoted text - i lived in texas for a few years lol! well there ya go. thatll qualify you to hold forth on anything. wolfie i thought your first reply was quite good wolfie. calm even reassuring. your second was taking a different tone - ... you wouldnt have the nerve to refuse me service because i was strapped. i rather suspect youd be hiding somewhere... now i had to wonder if you were the calm guy in reply #1 or not. by your third you seemed to regain your senses. looked like a good point in the thread to give an example of the blatant carry type i was talking about. and so i did. and then your fourth reply... whaaaa!!! little wolfie cant handle hearing about what i saw there he goes again. youre unstable wolfie. .

From : beryl

wolfie wrote on jul 30 323 pm beryl flyingterra...@chillybits.org wrote wolfie wrote on jul 29 1016 pm john h. guillory jo...@communicomm.com wrote on mon 28 jul 2008 052439 -0700 pdt wolfie dplusone...@aim.com wrote and i feel fairly certain that if i came into your business establishment somewhere in *my* country where it is legal to carry openly you wouldnt have the nerve to refuse me service because i was strapped. i rather suspect youd be hiding somewhere in back with the other ladies. no id tell you once and if you refused to leave id have someone escort you off the property. if you feel that your wearing a gun on your hip with flashing lights to let everyone know its there is going to make you more of a man then perhaps you need someone to point a gun to your head and squeeze the trigger to see if it has any bullets in it before you understand how fucking stupid you are. its apparent youre confusing me with someone else. i never said anything about flashing lights or manhood. and there are more sensible ways of determining whether a firearm is loaded than pulling the trigger. whos fucking stupid your concept of open carry is as ludicrous as your suggestion. if you intend to take a position in opposition to something why not have a minimal understanding of that to which you are opposed your flashing lights model simply doesnt exist in the real world. yes it does exist. i lived in texas for a few years saw flashing lights kooks make their statements in the form of pickup rear window gun rack displays. i remember one display was a big axe handle - yep just a handle! - that had there will be peace prominently scrawled in large letters with a broad felt marker. wolfie- hide quoted text - - show quoted text -- hide quoted text - - show quoted text - i lived in texas for a few years lol! well there ya go. thatll qualify you to hold forth on anything. itll only qualify me to tell what ive seen but thats enough to thoroughly wipe away your simply doesnt exist claim. wolfie .

From : wolfie

on jul 30 323=a0pm beryl flyingterra...@chillybits.org wrote wolfie wrote on jul 29 1016 pm john h. guillory jo...@communicomm.com wrote on mon 28 jul 2008 052439 -0700 pdt wolfie dplusone...@aim.com wrote and i feel fairly certain that if i came into your business establishment somewhere in *my* country where it is legal to carry openly you wouldnt have the nerve to refuse me service because i wa= s strapped. =a0i rather suspect youd be hiding somewhere in back with = the other ladies. no id tell you once and if you refused to leave id have someone escort you off the property. =a0if you feel that your wearing a gun on your hip with flashing lights to let everyone know its there is going to make you more of a man then perhaps you need someone to point a gun to your head and squeeze the trigger to see if it has any bullets in it before you understand how fucking stupid you are. its apparent youre confusing me with someone else. =a0i never said anything about flashing lights or manhood. =a0and there are more sensible ways of determining whether a firearm is loaded than pulling the trigger. =a0whos fucking stupid your concept of open carry is as ludicrous as your suggestion. =a0if yo= u intend to take a position in opposition to something why not have a minimal understanding of that to which you are opposed =a0your flashing lights model simply doesnt exist in the real world. yes it does exist. i lived in texas for a few years saw flashing lights kooks make their statements in the form of pickup rear window gun rack displays. i remember one display was a big axe handle - yep just a handle! - that had there will be peace prominently scrawled in large letters with a broad felt marker. wolfie- hide quoted text - - show quoted text -- hide quoted text - - show quoted text - i lived in texas for a few years lol! well there ya go. thatll qualify you to hold forth on anything. wolfie .

From : beryl

wolfie wrote on jul 29 1016 pm john h. guillory jo...@communicomm.com wrote on mon 28 jul 2008 052439 -0700 pdt wolfie dplusone...@aim.com wrote and i feel fairly certain that if i came into your business establishment somewhere in *my* country where it is legal to carry openly you wouldnt have the nerve to refuse me service because i was strapped. i rather suspect youd be hiding somewhere in back with the other ladies. no id tell you once and if you refused to leave id have someone escort you off the property. if you feel that your wearing a gun on your hip with flashing lights to let everyone know its there is going to make you more of a man then perhaps you need someone to point a gun to your head and squeeze the trigger to see if it has any bullets in it before you understand how fucking stupid you are. its apparent youre confusing me with someone else. i never said anything about flashing lights or manhood. and there are more sensible ways of determining whether a firearm is loaded than pulling the trigger. whos fucking stupid your concept of open carry is as ludicrous as your suggestion. if you intend to take a position in opposition to something why not have a minimal understanding of that to which you are opposed your flashing lights model simply doesnt exist in the real world. yes it does exist. i lived in texas for a few years saw flashing lights kooks make their statements in the form of pickup rear window gun rack displays. i remember one display was a big axe handle - yep just a handle! - that had there will be peace prominently scrawled in large letters with a broad felt marker. wolfie .

From : wolfie

on jul 29 1016=a0pm john h. guillory jo...@communicomm.com wrote on mon 28 jul 2008 052439 -0700 pdt wolfie dplusone...@aim.com wrote and i feel fairly certain that if i came into your business establishment somewhere in *my* country where it is legal to carry openly you wouldnt have the nerve to refuse me service because i was strapped. =a0i rather suspect youd be hiding somewhere in back with the other ladies. no id tell you once and if you refused to leave id have someone escort you off the property. =a0if you feel that your wearing a gun on your hip with flashing lights to let everyone know its there is going to make you more of a man then perhaps you need someone to point a gun to your head and squeeze the trigger to see if it has any bullets in it before you understand how fucking stupid you are. its apparent youre confusing me with someone else. i never said anything about flashing lights or manhood. and there are more sensible ways of determining whether a firearm is loaded than pulling the trigger. whos fucking stupid your concept of open carry is as ludicrous as your suggestion. if you intend to take a position in opposition to something why not have a minimal understanding of that to which you are opposed your flashing lights model simply doesnt exist in the real world. wolfie .

From : rm v2 0

on mon 28 jul 2008 052439 -0700 pdt wolfie dplusoneusa@aim.com wrote and i feel fairly certain that if i came into your business establishment somewhere in *my* country where it is legal to carry openly you wouldnt have the nerve to refuse me service because i was strapped. i rather suspect youd be hiding somewhere in back with the other ladies. no id tell you once and if you refused to leave id have someone escort you off the property. if you feel that your wearing a gun on your hip with flashing lights to let everyone know its there is going to make you more of a man then perhaps you need someone to point a gun to your head and squeeze the trigger to see if it has any bullets in it before you understand how fucking stupid you are. well when you are being robbed customers/victims shot i hope a person carrying just looks in the window then walks by. you are irrational and illogical. but it is your property so enjoy. you are one of those silly liberal penis-substitute-gun morons that fully expects the police to protect you good luck with that. .

From : rm v2 0

on mon 28 jul 2008 002316 -0600 nathan w. collier no@way.com wrote if they come in a place of estalishment with a weapon i sure as hell would refuse to service them.... good. and just maybe one of them will organize a boycott of your business. youd be surprised how loyal those of us who support the second amendment are. you have the right to refuse service and we have the right to take our business elsewhere. ya might be suprised at how happy they would be to see the disapearance of their business.... you have a poor business ethic. alienate customers for no valid logical reason. .

From : nathan w collier

fortunately we live in reality and understand that if the bad guy is the only one armed theres a problem. heck i bet he even thinks the police are obligated to protect him and his family. your input is dead on. i invite you to share more of it at http//concealedcarryforum.com as we have had many similar discussions. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : john h guillory

on sun 27 jul 2008 234407 -0700 bud k7kkg@yahoo.com wrote you sure have a low opinion of yourself i can see that what youre doing in this post is projecting what actions you might take if you ever owned a gun. you sure arent taking about gun owners that are effected by laws. that was you that swolled the hand-grenade .

From : john h guillory

on mon 28 jul 2008 052439 -0700 pdt wolfie dplusoneusa@aim.com wrote and i feel fairly certain that if i came into your business establishment somewhere in *my* country where it is legal to carry openly you wouldnt have the nerve to refuse me service because i was strapped. i rather suspect youd be hiding somewhere in back with the other ladies. no id tell you once and if you refused to leave id have someone escort you off the property. if you feel that your wearing a gun on your hip with flashing lights to let everyone know its there is going to make you more of a man then perhaps you need someone to point a gun to your head and squeeze the trigger to see if it has any bullets in it before you understand how fucking stupid you are. .

From : john h guillory

on mon 28 jul 2008 002316 -0600 nathan w. collier no@way.com wrote if they come in a place of estalishment with a weapon i sure as hell would refuse to service them.... good. and just maybe one of them will organize a boycott of your business. youd be surprised how loyal those of us who support the second amendment are. you have the right to refuse service and we have the right to take our business elsewhere. ya might be suprised at how happy they would be to see the disapearance of their business.... .

From : leo marx

napalmheart wrote nathan w. collier wrote although this is sure to surprise many of you i am working on warming up to open carry. im not willing to sacrifice my tactical advantage of concealed carry but im trying to warm up to the idea none-the-less. you need to stop sniffin that smoking gun. jam how close are you to karl in the bloodline a four-year-old child could understand this report. run out and find me a four-year-old child. i cant make head or tail out of it. leo marx .

From : christopher d thompson

on mon 28 jul 2008 220435 -0600 nathan w. collier wrote fortunately we live in reality and understand that if the bad guy is the only one armed theres a problem. heck i bet he even thinks the police are obligated to protect him and his family. your input is dead on. i invite you to share more of it at http//concealedcarryforum.com as we have had many similar discussions. nathan we were having a chat last night on your chat server. and although i appreciate the invite i am already a regular there = -- chris .

From : christopher d thompson

on mon 28 jul 2008 232334 -0400 tom lawrence wrote give him a break nate he is brainwashed and actually believes that if we banned guns knives wild animals hydrocarbons cigarettes tobacco and well... weve banned drugs. look how well thats worked out. thats kinda my point! sad isnt it -- chris .

From : tom lawrence

give him a break nate he is brainwashed and actually believes that if we banned guns knives wild animals hydrocarbons cigarettes tobacco and well... weve banned drugs. look how well thats worked out. .

From : iman nassoul

guillory johng@communicomm.com wrote on sun 27 jul 2008 144338 -0700 pdt wolfie dplusoneusa@aim.com wrote we are an open carry state in oregon. have been as long as i can remember and then some im sure. the nice thing about open carry is that even with ccws you dont have to worry about the tip of your hoster sticking out below the edge of your vest and freaking out the simple-minded who think armed law-abiding americans are a bad thing. open carry isnt about egos. its about availability...access. i can forsee that as a place changes to be open carry etc. then more and more businesses would have signs on their doors to the extent leave your weapons in your car or dont come in. over here at least we have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason and if they come in a place of estalishment with a weapon i sure as hell would refuse to service them.... whats the address of your business sounds like a nice place for criminals to hit. lots of unarmed people to rob! a sign on the door simply advertises this fact. of course the criminals will probably ignore the sign. damn...if only someone had a hiden weapon..... .

From : napalmheart

are number 25 in the que..... ======================== this was after 1 1/2 hours of mostly waiting online in ques only to be transferred!! this is abbreviated. i was transferred many more times to several other support teams. i gave up and may try again some other day!! . 222 345023 k6wdnumv3ln8bpvnz2dnuvzhwdnz2d@posted.eaglecomputertechnology nathan w. collier wrote although this is sure to surprise many of you i am working on warming up to open carry. im not willing to sacrifice my tactical advantage of concealed carry but im trying to warm up to the idea none-the-less. you need to stop sniffin that smoking gun. jam how close are you to karl in the bloodline .

From : napalmheart

on sun 27 jul 2008 144338 -0700 pdt wolfie dplusoneusa@aim.com wrote we are an open carry state in oregon. have been as long as i can remember and then some im sure. the nice thing about open carry is that even with ccws you dont have to worry about the tip of your hoster sticking out below the edge of your vest and freaking out the simple-minded who think armed law-abiding americans are a bad thing. open carry isnt about egos. its about availability...access. i can forsee that as a place changes to be open carry etc. then more and more businesses would have signs on their doors to the extent leave your weapons in your car or dont come in. over here at least we have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason and if they come in a place of estalishment with a weapon i sure as hell would refuse to service them.... i do my best to avoid businesses that are against my right to defend myself. ken .

From : christopher d thompson

on mon 28 jul 2008 002150 -0600 nathan w. collier wrote yeah like the right to kill someone for charging you for the gas you put in your car the beer you want to drink! its all about the right to shoot your wife when she doesnt want to have sex with you or shoot your teacher because you got a b and you thought you should have an a! wow...you are an absolute idiot. give him a break nate he is brainwashed and actually believes that if we banned guns knives wild animals hydrocarbons cigarettes tobacco and anything else someone might get killed by the bad guys would actually give up and everyone would get along.... fortunately we live in reality and understand that if the bad guy is the only one armed theres a problem. heck i bet he even thinks the police are obligated to protect him and his family. -- chris .

From : leo marx

nathan w. collier wrote although this is sure to surprise many of you i am working on warming up to open carry. im not willing to sacrifice my tactical advantage of concealed carry but im trying to warm up to the idea none-the-less. you need to stop sniffin that smoking gun. jam .

From : rm v2 0

on sun 27 jul 2008 144338 -0700 pdt wolfie dplusoneusa@aim.com wrote i can forsee that as a place changes to be open carry etc. then more and more businesses would have signs on their doors to the extent leave your weapons in your car or dont come in. over here at least we have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason and if they come in a place of estalishment with a weapon i sure as hell would refuse to service them.... you are just ignorant of how many come into your business with a concealed weapon. do you really think a criminal will give one hair off a rats ass about your silly sign i wouldnt go into any business posted that way as they arent allowing me to protect myself and damn sure wont do it for me. wait till your ass is sued because soemone is hurt on your property because they couldnt defend themselves. .

From : bud

on mon 28 jul 2008 002900 -0500 john h. guillory johng@communicomm.com wrote yeah like the right to kill someone for charging you for the gas you put in your car the beer you want to drink! its all about the right to shoot your wife when she doesnt want to have sex with you or shoot your teacher because you got a b and you thought you should have an a! you sure have a low opinion of yourself i can see that what youre doing in this post is projecting what actions you might take if you ever owned a gun. you sure arent taking about gun owners that are effected by laws. .

From : nathan w collier

if they come in a place of estalishment with a weapon i sure as hell would refuse to service them.... good. and just maybe one of them will organize a boycott of your business. youd be surprised how loyal those of us who support the second amendment are. you have the right to refuse service and we have the right to take our business elsewhere. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : nathan w collier

yeah like the right to kill someone for charging you for the gas you put in your car the beer you want to drink! its all about the right to shoot your wife when she doesnt want to have sex with you or shoot your teacher because you got a b and you thought you should have an a! wow...you are an absolute idiot. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : john h guillory

on sun 27 jul 2008 144338 -0700 pdt wolfie dplusoneusa@aim.com wrote we are an open carry state in oregon. have been as long as i can remember and then some im sure. the nice thing about open carry is that even with ccws you dont have to worry about the tip of your hoster sticking out below the edge of your vest and freaking out the simple-minded who think armed law-abiding americans are a bad thing. open carry isnt about egos. its about availability...access. i can forsee that as a place changes to be open carry etc. then more and more businesses would have signs on their doors to the extent leave your weapons in your car or dont come in. over here at least we have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason and if they come in a place of estalishment with a weapon i sure as hell would refuse to service them.... .

From : john h guillory

on sun 27 jul 2008 143819 -0600 nathan w. collier no@way.com wrote why not just leapfrog to the next level - blatant carry. its not about projecting image. its about protecting rights. im still a bit reluctant to embrace it but i definately support the right because thats what it is despite the social awkwardness. yeah like the right to kill someone for charging you for the gas you put in your car the beer you want to drink! its all about the right to shoot your wife when she doesnt want to have sex with you or shoot your teacher because you got a b and you thought you should have an a! .

From : wolfie

on jul 27 1031=a0pm john h. guillory jo...@communicomm.com wrote on sun 27 jul 2008 144338 -0700 pdt wolfie dplusone...@aim.com wrote we are an open carry state in oregon. =a0have been as long as i can remember and then some im sure. =a0the nice thing about open carry is that even with ccws you dont have to worry about the tip of your hoster sticking out below the edge of your vest and freaking out the simple-minded who think armed law-abiding americans are a bad thing. open carry isnt about egos. =a0its about availability...access. =a0i can forsee that as a place changes to be open carry etc. then more and more businesses would have signs on their doors to the extent leave your weapons in your car or dont come in. =a0over here at least we have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason and if they come in a place of estalishment with a weapon i sure as hell would refuse to service them.... as i said some people consider armed law-abiding americans a bad thing. you are obviously one of those people. places dont change to *become* open carry...they pass laws restricting the rights that already exist so that only criminals and law-enforcement are armed. your concept of a legally armed citizenry appears to be based on hysteria and paranoia. and i feel fairly certain that if i came into your business establishment somewhere in *my* country where it is legal to carry openly you wouldnt have the nerve to refuse me service because i was strapped. i rather suspect youd be hiding somewhere in back with the other ladies. wolfie .

From : Annonymous

on sun 27 jul 2008 131256 -0700 beryl flyingterrapin@chillybits.org wrote nathan w. collier wrote although this is sure to surprise many of you i am working on warming up to open carry. im not willing to sacrifice my tactical advantage of concealed carry but im trying to warm up to the idea none-the-less. why not just leapfrog to the next level - blatant carry. thats where your weapons presence is projected in a way that wont be missed by an inattentive public. sequentially blinking leds direct the eye to the holster. there menacing chromed spikes like youd find on a rottweilers collar send a clear message youd damn well better not fuck with me to send folks scurrying out of the way as you pass by. blatant carry along with the biggest baddest bumper that can be bolted to the front of a truck makes an unforgettable statement about a man. haha .

From : napalmheart

why not just leapfrog to the next level - blatant carry. thats where your weapons presence is projected in a way that wont be missed by an inattentive public. sequentially blinking leds direct the eye to the holster. there menacing chromed spikes like youd find on a rottweilers collar send a clear message youd damn well better not fuck with me to send folks scurrying out of the way as you pass by. blatant carry along with the biggest baddest bumper that can be bolted to the front of a truck makes an unforgettable statement about a man. and the perpetuation of stereotypes goes forward! .

From : wolfie

on jul 27 112=a0pm beryl flyingterra...@chillybits.org wrote nathan w. collier wrote although this is sure to surprise many of you i am working on warming = up to open carry. im not willing to sacrifice my tactical advantage of concea= led carry but im trying to warm up to the idea none-the-less. why not just leapfrog to the next level - blatant carry. thats where your weapons presence is projected in a way that wont be missed by an inattentive public. sequentially blinking leds direct the eye to the holster. there menacing chromed spikes like youd find on a rottweilers collar send a clear message youd damn well better not fuck with me to send folks scurrying out of the way as you pass by. blatant carry along with the biggest baddest bumper that can be bolted to the front of a truck makes an unforgettable statement about a man. we are an open carry state in oregon. have been as long as i can remember and then some im sure. the nice thing about open carry is that even with ccws you dont have to worry about the tip of your hoster sticking out below the edge of your vest and freaking out the simple-minded who think armed law-abiding americans are a bad thing. open carry isnt about egos. its about availability...access. in spite of the law you dont see that many people carrying openly here. and the ones you do see dont fit the profile of your fantasy. they mostly appear to be hard-working people with nothing to hide. no attitudes no big bumpers. youre safe here assuming youre not a baddie. ;- wolfie .

From : nathan w collier

why not just leapfrog to the next level - blatant carry. its not about projecting image. its about protecting rights. im still a bit reluctant to embrace it but i definately support the right because thats what it is despite the social awkwardness. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : beryl

nathan w. collier wrote although this is sure to surprise many of you i am working on warming up to open carry. im not willing to sacrifice my tactical advantage of concealed carry but im trying to warm up to the idea none-the-less. why not just leapfrog to the next level - blatant carry. thats where your weapons presence is projected in a way that wont be missed by an inattentive public. sequentially blinking leds direct the eye to the holster. there menacing chromed spikes like youd find on a rottweilers collar send a clear message youd damn well better not fuck with me to send folks scurrying out of the way as you pass by. blatant carry along with the biggest baddest bumper that can be bolted to the front of a truck makes an unforgettable statement about a man. .

From : napalmheart

napalmheart wrote nathan w. collier wrote although this is sure to surprise many of you i am working on warming up to open carry. im not willing to sacrifice my tactical advantage of concealed carry but im trying to warm up to the idea none-the-less. if you are already familiar with our sister site http//concealedcarryforum.com im sure youll find yourself at home on our newest sister site http//opencarryforum.com and i hope to see you there. please share the link and get us off to a good start. new study explains whats up with chickenshit republican gun weenies. http//.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7623256.stm their research published in the journal science indicates that people who are sensitive to fear or threat are likely to support a right wing agenda. those who perceived less danger in a series of images and sounds were more inclined to support liberal policies. they found that subjects who were more easily startled tended to have political views that would be classified as more right wing being more in favour of capital punishment and higher defence spending but opposed to abortion rights. on the other hand you have people who are more supportive of pacifism and who advocate gun control - and there are lots of areas where people who are less sensitive to threat would project those kinds of feelings into the political arena. typical anti-gun pussy garbage rhetoric. explains why violent crime is soaring in the uk and oz. it says nothing at all about crime rates. criminals arent carrying guns because they feel frightened and paranoid out in the world they have some very different reasons. ill discuss that with you at length ken but i might call you a dolt again and youd be crushed. calling me names doesnt crush me particularily not by someone on usenet. especially by someone who supports positions that are ridiculous and dont fit into the real world. the study does explain why you smuggle your gun into places where guns are prohibited. it explains why punkin always keeps his gun within reach next to the bed even while hes sitting at his computer desk. it explains why nathan wont go out into the world without his concealed tactical advantage. please show me where i have smuggled my gun into places where guns are prohibited. if you are referring to this post made on 7/31/08 at 710 p.m. i wonder how many places ive gone into while legally armed and concealed where the owner/manager believed the delusion that their prohibition of firearms made their business any safer i was referring to places that might not want customers to carry concealed on their premises prohibit but that do not post a sign saying so not that i carried in places where i knew such rules existed. in my statemichigan the arent required to do so. me thinketh that thou does exhibit doltishness far more than i. if you want to have a serious discussion about being armed vs. not being armed and which is preferable thats fine but im not a slave to answering usenet postings. when i get to it is when i get to it. ken .

From : steveb toquerville zionvistas

i love stalkers. lol...now thats just pathetic. are you still pissed off because jeep made you quit using their trademark illegally lol...even more pathetic. pathetic ramblings from a pathetic person. ...roll in your misery. - -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com you forgot http//hardcorejeep.com i rest my case ladies and gentlemen. steve .

From : nathan w colliernathan w collier

you forgot http//hardcorejeep.com i rest my case ladies and gentlemen. lol....what exactly are you trying to prove what point are you trying to make so i was sued by jeep. so what. my current lifestyle should be an indication that i recovered from it just fine. - .....if thats the worst you can come up with then im not doing to bad....and in the end youre still simply pathetic. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : steveb toquerville zionvistas

you forgot http//hardcorejeep.com i rest my case ladies and gentlemen. lol....what exactly are you trying to prove what point are you trying to make so i was sued by jeep. so what. my current lifestyle should be an indication that i recovered from it just fine. - ....if thats the worst you can come up with then im not doing to bad....and in the end youre still simply pathetic. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com yet you still hang on my every word finding it necessary to keep up this endless conversation. just go be yourself no matter how much it sucks. montana is incredible. take up flyfishing or moose hunting. make some statements about guns that we can talk about. you know the subject of this thread. no sigh ............ or about trucks. you know the subject of this group no sigh ........... you do own a dodge dont you just ditch the attitude that theres nothing bigger and badder than a dodge truck and nothing bigger and badder than your pistol. fact is thousands of people have been killed by small caliber guns and even pointy sticks. and pepper spray is a good tool for persuasion. steve .

From : nathan w collier

yet you still hang on my every word finding it necessary to keep up this endless conversation. dont be a hypcrite steve. just ditch the attitude that theres nothing bigger and badder than a dodge truck and nothing bigger and badder than your pistol. youre an idiot. thousands of people have been killed by small caliber guns and even pointy sticks. and pepper spray is a good tool for persuasion. do you have any idea how many people are killed in bathtubs that doesnt make the bathtub a smart choice for defensive carry. i base my recommendations on stopping power potential and no matter how hard you stomp your feet you will not find one single published authority on this subject hackathorn wilson cooper etc. that will tell you the .380 is adequate as a primary carry caliber. not one. now you can foolishly disregard my recommendations because you dont like me all you want that doesnt change the validity of my statements. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : steveb toquerville zionvistas

nathan w. collier 113@1657.com wrote hackathorn wilson cooper etc. that will tell you the .380 is adequate as a primary carry caliber. not one. now you can foolishly disregard my recommendations because you dont like me all you want that doesnt change the validity of my statements. i could kill you with a .380 auto. but then i could kill you with a ball point pen too. all this discussion about ccf and higher advantage of the multiple round higher caliber higher muzzle velocity higher muzzle energy equipment is mental masturbation that flies in the face of the facts. facts state that most gunfights dont hit anyone. that trained leos are only marginally more accurate than their civilian counterparts. that many people killed in gunfights are not even participants. that most gunfights occur at a distance of less than 15 feet and result in no injuries to either party. and that a .22 can be just as deadly as a .45 caliber. ever wonder why the .22 caliber was the weapon of choice for mob hit men if you want to quote facts please feel free to do so. i dont want some desert magnum .50 caliber piece. if i ever get in a tight enough jam with someone to start shooting ill probably just press it to their jugular or femoral and let it fly. other than that i qualified at 288/300 with the 3at so i can hit things at a farther distance too. i do like the advantage of multiple round magazines versus a six hole wheel gun. but when it comes to a choice of carrying something as big as a brick or as small as a wallet ill take the smaller. until the time that comes out im good enough at running street fighting negotiating situational awareness and assessment and just plain common sense to never get into a full blown 36 round exchange with a bad guy. if you shoot more than twice youre just a plain lousy shot. maybe ill just leave my 3at at home and keep my bic pen at hand. i mean what bad guy is going to be afraid of someone with a bic pen a bic to the jugular is fatal. and most big badasses who carry huge concealed firearms wouldnt even draw on such an individual. dying with your boots on is honorable. dying with your gun in your holster is not. steve .

From : nathan w collier

i thank you for your lucid rational discussion. indeed thanks. you have made some very good points and made me think about some things in a new way. i cannot tell you how important it is to me that people be educated and prepared to face evil. for very personal reasons it is one of my highest priorities to do whatever i can reasonably do to share good valid information on the principles of defending oneself against those intent on harming them. i have no tolerance for bad guys....those who want to steal from you or hurt your wife/daughter/mother/etc. and consider it my obligation to do whatever i can to hinder their success. it all comes down to being prepared staying out of bad situations and when things do go bad do like the hollywood guys and get creative with whatever you got handy. while i agree that being able to get creative is important i try to prepare myself with the best tools possible to prevent the need of having to get creative. i like a good quality weapon such as a glock in a service caliber that can be employed effectively if needed have a nice day. you too! -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : nathan w collier

apparently you dont have a good ground path unless the pvc over the copper is green-ish in color. if its white you could be killed at near any moment. dang...live and learn! - -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : nathan w collier

ok if youll put your personal feelings away for a bit i will explain this to you. i could kill you with a .380 auto. but then i could kill you with a ball point pen too. yes you could...but neither makes a good primary defensive weapon. all this discussion about ccf and higher advantage of the multiple round higher caliber higher muzzle velocity higher muzzle energy equipment is mental masturbation that flies in the face of the facts. you couldnt be more wrong. hopefully the only reason you would be shooting at someone is because they are a realistic and immediate threat to you or someone else. when you shoot a bad guy one of two things will stop him. either you will stop his ability to function through disruption of vital organs or he will bleed-out. disruption causes an abrupt end to his actions where bleed-out can take from several minutes if a vital vein was hit to several hours. a .380 can kill you from bleed-out as can a .25 for that matter but wouldnt you rather end the threat against you immediately or as close to it as possible defensive shooting is about statistical probability. an adequate service caliber 38 special 9mm 40 45 357 sig etc. has a lot more stopping power potential than the mouse guns. with a service caliber if you do your job it will do its job. with sub-service calibers you are not likely to penetrate deep enough to reach anything vital leaving you waiting for bleed-out before the threat stops. the mere presence of a gun is a deterrent to many but an inadequate gun is no defense against an attacker determined to harm you. from drugs to simple rage mouse guns do not perform well enough to be depended upon as a primary defensive weapon and this statement is supported by every published and recognized authority on this subject. every one without exception. period. trained leos are only marginally more accurate than their civilian counterparts. actually statistics will show you that leos are typically less accurate than the typical ccw civilian. and that a .22 can be just as deadly as a .45 caliber. yes it can be but that is the rare exception and not the rule. that said i would carry .22lr before i would carry .380. why the .22 at least penetrates deep enough to reach the vitals even if the hole is smaller. ever wonder why the .22 caliber was the weapon of choice for mob hit men no i dont wonder that at all. i know exactly why. mob hits using the .22 involve one or more shots directly into the back of the head. if the bad guy would stand still for you to shoot at his head i would be all for carrying a .22. i dont want some desert magnum .50 caliber piece. nor do i. it isnt necessary for adequate protection. it doesnt take a dirty harry gun to adequately protect yourself. it takes a service caliber. i do like the advantage of multiple round magazines versus a six hole wheel gun. but when it comes to a choice of carrying something as big as a brick or as small as a wallet ill take the smaller. thanks to modern innovation you dont have to choose. fact is you can buy very small pocket guns in service calibers. i encourage you to consider the walther pps available in 9mm and even .40. see one of my sites at http//ppstalk.com for more information about it. it will slip into your pocket and disappear while offering adequate protection in a real service caliber. until the time that comes out im good enough at running street fighting negotiating situational awareness and assessment and just plain common sense to never get into a full blown 36 round exchange with a bad guy. and if youre sitting inside a restaurant eating and a bad guy starts firing an ak47 at random what then would you seriously engage a man wielding an ak47 with a .380 you might get lucky and he falls over but what if he doesnt if he doesnt fall over you are going to do nothing but draw his fire while you wait on him to bleed-out. as for fighting i used to be very good myself. i say used to be because i simply will not engage in hand to hand anymore. i had a bad man come in the window of my jeep years back. i punched him several times as hard as i could knocking out several of his teeth. afterwards i noticed that my knuckles were bleeding; i cut my hands on his teeth. i spent the next 6 months scared to death wondering if i had got aids from him i didnt but that 6 month wait was horrible!. that left one hell of an impression that never left me. today i wont mix it up with anybody anymore. if i am threatened and have an out i will take it every time. if i am threatened and do not have an out leaving me with no choice i hope the bad guy smiles for the flash. if you shoot more than twice youre just a plain lousy shot. over 50% of all defensive shootings involve multiple bad guys. a bic to the jugular is fatal. do you really want to be that close to a life t

From : tom lawrence

box at home you will see bare copper wires and copper wires insulated with white plastic going to the same common bar. i was about to point that out to beryl err... excuse me geyser but you beat me to it. funny i have the same welder connected to essentially the same outlet though mines a 50a its wired exactly the same and yeah all my neutrals from my 110v circuits and grounds from my 220v circuits as well as the big copper wire running to this big long copper electrode buried outside my shop all terminate on the same bus. apparently you dont have a good ground path unless the pvc over the copper is green-ish in color. if its white you could be killed at near any moment. and i dont know if there are any or not well that there says it all doesnt it quoting ber.. geyser not nate if you arent using 115v circuits ground and neutral are the same point becasue they connect to the same common bar. but youre forgetting about the color nate. soooo important here... .

From : steveb toquerville zionvistas

ok if youll put your personal feelings away for a bit i will explain this to you. i could kill you with a .380 auto. but then i could kill you with a ball point pen too. yes you could...but neither makes a good primary defensive weapon. all this discussion about ccf and higher advantage of the multiple round higher caliber higher muzzle velocity higher muzzle energy equipment is mental masturbation that flies in the face of the facts. you couldnt be more wrong. hopefully the only reason you would be shooting at someone is because they are a realistic and immediate threat to you or someone else. when you shoot a bad guy one of two things will stop him. either you will stop his ability to function through disruption of vital organs or he will bleed-out. disruption causes an abrupt end to his actions where bleed-out can take from several minutes if a vital vein was hit to several hours. a .380 can kill you from bleed-out as can a .25 for that matter but wouldnt you rather end the threat against you immediately or as close to it as possible defensive shooting is about statistical probability. an adequate service caliber 38 special 9mm 40 45 357 sig etc. has a lot more stopping power potential than the mouse guns. with a service caliber if you do your job it will do its job. with sub-service calibers you are not likely to penetrate deep enough to reach anything vital leaving you waiting for bleed-out before the threat stops. the mere presence of a gun is a deterrent to many but an inadequate gun is no defense against an attacker determined to harm you. from drugs to simple rage mouse guns do not perform well enough to be depended upon as a primary defensive weapon and this statement is supported by every published and recognized authority on this subject. every one without exception. period. trained leos are only marginally more accurate than their civilian counterparts. actually statistics will show you that leos are typically less accurate than the typical ccw civilian. and that a .22 can be just as deadly as a .45 caliber. yes it can be but that is the rare exception and not the rule. that said i would carry .22lr before i would carry .380. why the .22 at least penetrates deep enough to reach the vitals even if the hole is smaller. ever wonder why the .22 caliber was the weapon of choice for mob hit men no i dont wonder that at all. i know exactly why. mob hits using the .22 involve one or more shots directly into the back of the head. if the bad guy would stand still for you to shoot at his head i would be all for carrying a .22. i dont want some desert magnum .50 caliber piece. nor do i. it isnt necessary for adequate protection. it doesnt take a dirty harry gun to adequately protect yourself. it takes a service caliber. i do like the advantage of multiple round magazines versus a six hole wheel gun. but when it comes to a choice of carrying something as big as a brick or as small as a wallet ill take the smaller. thanks to modern innovation you dont have to choose. fact is you can buy very small pocket guns in service calibers. i encourage you to consider the walther pps available in 9mm and even .40. see one of my sites at http//ppstalk.com for more information about it. it will slip into your pocket and disappear while offering adequate protection in a real service caliber. until the time that comes out im good enough at running street fighting negotiating situational awareness and assessment and just plain common sense to never get into a full blown 36 round exchange with a bad guy. and if youre sitting inside a restaurant eating and a bad guy starts firing an ak47 at random what then would you seriously engage a man wielding an ak47 with a .380 you might get lucky and he falls over but what if he doesnt if he doesnt fall over you are going to do nothing but draw his fire while you wait on him to bleed-out. as for fighting i used to be very good myself. i say used to be because i simply will not engage in hand to hand anymore. i had a bad man come in the window of my jeep years back. i punched him several times as hard as i could knocking out several of his teeth. afterwards i noticed that my knuckles were bleeding; i cut my hands on his teeth. i spent the next 6 months scared to death wondering if i had got aids from him i didnt but that 6 month wait was horrible!. that left one hell of an impression that never left me. today i wont mix it up with anybody anymore. if i am threatened and have an out i will take it every time. if i am threatened and do not have an out leaving me with no choice i hope the bad guy smiles for the flash. if you shoot more than twice youre just a plain lousy shot. over 50% of all defensive shootings involve multiple bad guys. a bic to the jugular is fatal. do you really want to be that close to a life

From : geyser

steveb wrote all this discussion about ccf and higher advantage of the multiple round higher caliber higher muzzle velocity higher muzzle energy equipment is mental masturbation that flies in the face of the facts. you couldnt be more wrong. hopefully the only reason you would be shooting at someone is because they are a realistic and immediate threat to you or someone else. .... i thank you for your lucid rational discussion. see how much better it goes than throwing wet cereal at each other like two two year olds you have made some very good points and made me think about some things in a new way. that is the purpose of discussion debate and conversation. it all comes down to being prepared staying out of bad situations and when things do go bad do like the hollywood guys and get creative with whatever you got handy. these things dont always happen in order and when were all prepared. reality is like that. have a nice day. steve keep in mind nathans last sentence right before i cut him off. the fear & politics study i cited suggests that his hopefully the only reason reason is part of an illusion that he wants you to share. nathan appears to take a superficial view of things and fails to ponder the what-ifs. for example years back he put together an extension cord for his welder so he could plug it into a dryer outlet. an obsolete non-grounded type of outlet now and then frowned upon and no longer acceptable according to the building codes. when the potential danger was pointed out to him he strongly rejected the information. never even included a caveat on his web page where he posted his extension cord how-to idea for others to follow. after all the cord worked nathan wasnt yet electrocuted and thats about as far ahead as nathan could see. another example - nathan wrote that he flattened some pedestrian safety barriers in a parking lot not too long ago. he didnt bother to peek under his truck for damage because his burly custom bumper looked just fine. didnt understand or seem to care that a crushable bumper saves the rest of the structure behind the bumper. the part he could see the part that contacted the parking lot barriers was undamaged and that satisfied nathan. .

From : nathan w collier

for example years back he put together an extension cord for his welder so he could plug it into a dryer outlet. an obsolete non-grounded type of outlet now and then frowned upon and no longer acceptable according to the building codes. when the potential danger was pointed out to him he strongly rejected the information. never even included a caveat on his web page where he posted his extension cord how-to idea for others to follow. after all the cord worked nathan wasnt yet electrocuted and thats about as far ahead as nathan could see. the article in question is http//collierwelding.com/tech/weldercord/index.html and you are absolutely full of shit if you believe that an electrocution hazard exists. the cord that came with the welder is single phase with case ground. that is exactly what the cord i made provides. dryers are different because they have both 115v circuits control as well as 230v circuits motor and heating element and therefore they require a neutral bar for the 115v circuits and then a ground for case ground. my welder does not utilize any 115v circuits therefore an additional ground is not needed. just because new construction building code changed on dryer plugs does not mean that a 4 prong plug is required for a welder. in fact since you claim to know so much tell me where would the 4th wire go the welder doesnt have anywhere to connect it to. are you claiming it needs two case grounds ....so in your foolishness you can continue to criticize all you want to but what you cant do is provide code to substantiate your claim. another example - nathan wrote that he flattened some pedestrian safety barriers in a parking lot not too long ago. he didnt bother to peek under his truck for damage because his burly custom bumper looked just fine. didnt understand or seem to care that a crushable bumper saves the rest of the structure behind the bumper. the part he could see the part that contacted the parking lot barriers was undamaged and that satisfied nathan. you are an ignorant fool who apparently believes himself to be omnipotent. you werent there you didnt see anything of the incident and are certainly in no position to tell me what i did or didnt do. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : geyser

tom lawrence wrote box at home you will see bare copper wires and copper wires insulated with white plastic going to the same common bar. i was about to point that out to beryl err... excuse me geyser but you beat me to it. funny i have the same welder connected to essentially the same outlet though mines a 50a its wired exactly the same and yeah all my neutrals from my 110v circuits and grounds from my 220v circuits as well as the big copper wire running to this big long copper electrode buried outside my shop all terminate on the same bus. apparently you dont have a good ground path unless the pvc over the copper is green-ish in color. if its white you could be killed at near any moment. and i dont know if there are any or not well that there says it all doesnt it quoting ber.. geyser not nate if you arent using 115v circuits ground and neutral are the same point becasue they connect to the same common bar. but youre forgetting about the color nate. soooo important here... dope what do you think green wires are for why doesnt your table lamp just use the white wire to ground the lamp body since its already right there and neutral and ground are connected back at the panel anyway can you answer .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote for example years back he put together an extension cord for his welder so he could plug it into a dryer outlet. an obsolete non-grounded type of outlet now and then frowned upon and no longer acceptable according to the building codes. when the potential danger was pointed out to him he strongly rejected the information. never even included a caveat on his web page where he posted his extension cord how-to idea for others to follow. after all the cord worked nathan wasnt yet electrocuted and thats about as far ahead as nathan could see. the article in question is http//collierwelding.com/tech/weldercord/index.html and you are absolutely full of shit if you believe that an electrocution hazard exists. the cord that came with the welder is single phase with case ground. that is exactly what the cord i made provides. dryers are different because they have both 115v circuits control as well as 230v circuits motor and heating element and therefore they require a neutral bar for the 115v circuits and then a ground for case ground. except that old dryers dont use the ground wire for case ground. they use the allegedly neutral white wire for that. look inside an old dryer outlet and youll no doubt find a bare copper ground wire that made it that far but its tucked out of the way unused. and proclaiming that therefore they require a neutral bar for the 115v circuits is misleading nonsense. all 115v circuits use the neutral conductor anyway. the obvious difference with dryers is the use of *another* hot wire typically a red one on the 230v circuits instead of the white neutral. an overlooked difference is that the 115v portions white neutral does double-duty as the chassis ground. what do you think those extra green ground wires are for inside your other 115v lights and appliances decoration why was the code changed if im absolutely full of shit that an electrocution hazard exists its a simple enough matter to upgrade an outlet and to put a new 4-wire cord on an older dryer. http//www.acmehowto.com/howto/appliance/dryer/edryer/repair/replace-power-cord.php will tell you about it. and ill admit that i havent done so on my own dryer but that doesnt mean ill hide information from others and make their choices for them. my welder does not utilize any 115v circuits therefore an additional ground is not needed. just because new construction building code changed on dryer plugs does not mean that a 4 prong plug is required for a welder. in fact since you claim to know so much tell me where would the 4th wire go the welder doesnt have anywhere to connect it to. are you claiming it needs two case grounds your welder cabinet needs one just like a dryer. without 115v circuits and i dont know if there are any or not an additional neutral that a dryer uses is not needed. so why would you prefer to connect the cabinet to that neutral wire instead of the ground wire now i understand that in a bind someone may want or need to plug their welder into an old ungrounded socket. is that enough reason to not disclose additional safety information is it really because someone else raised the warning and you didnt think of it first ...so in your foolishness you can continue to criticize all you want to but what you cant do is provide code to substantiate your claim. i dont know that its the codes job to substantiate anyones claim. it tells us how the work must be done its not an argument to convince us why. another example - nathan wrote that he flattened some pedestrian safety barriers in a parking lot not too long ago. he didnt bother to peek under his truck for damage because his burly custom bumper looked just fine. didnt understand or seem to care that a crushable bumper saves the rest of the structure behind the bumper. the part he could see the part that contacted the parking lot barriers was undamaged and that satisfied nathan. you are an ignorant fool who apparently believes himself to be omnipotent. you werent there you didnt see anything of the incident and are certainly in no position to tell me what i did or didnt do. i wasnt there. you told me what you did and didnt do. .

From : nathan w collier

except that old dryers dont use the ground wire for case ground. they use the allegedly neutral white wire for that. this is not intended as an insult. it appears you are ignorant to how this works. the neutral wire and the ground wire go back to the same point in the electrical panel. the difference is in how the appliance uses the power. keep this in mind more to come further down. and proclaiming that therefore they require a neutral bar for the 115v circuits is misleading nonsense. all 115v circuits use the neutral conductor anyway. yes the 115v circuit needs a neutral wire. my welder does not have any 115v components inside therefore the wire that serves as neutral on a dryer serves as case ground on my welder. remove the panel cover from your fuse box at home you will see bare copper wires and copper wires insulated with white plastic going to the same common bar. electrically they are the same point. if i utilized a 115v circuit i would not use the same wire to serve as case ground due to the potential but the welder does not use teh wire as neutral it uses it as case ground. the obvious difference with dryers is the use of *another* hot wire typically a red one on the 230v circuits instead of the white neutral. an overlooked difference is that the 115v portions white neutral does double-duty as the chassis ground. on three prong outlets the third wire is indeed double-duty as common bar and case ground. this is irrelevant on a welder that has no 115v circuitry therefore it does not utilize the third wire as a neutral connection. if you arent using the third leg to complete a circuit it can very well serve as case ground because they bare wire for ground white wire for neutral both go back to the same common bar. why was the code changed if im absolutely full of shit that an electrocution hazard exists construction code was changed. you can no longer build a house with a 3 prong dryer outlet. that is absolutely irrelevant to using an older 3 prong plug on a 230v welder that has no 115v circuit therefore the third wire is not serving as neutral. in the article i quoted i clearly show the plug on the new welder. guess what....it has three prongs. where would you suggest i connect the forth wire and what purpose would it serve go shop brand new welders right now. despite the construction code change they still come with 3 prong plugs. why thats all they need. they dont utilize a 115v circuit like a dryer does. its a simple enough matter to upgrade an outlet and to put a new 4-wire cord on an older dryer. its not simple enough when you only have 3 wires in your wall. 3 wire dryer plugs still meet code. they dont meet code on new construction. would you really rip your walls open from the dryer outlet to the fuse panel just to rewire it because new construction code changed ill admit that i havent done so on my own dryer but that doesnt mean ill hide information from others and make their choices for them. its not hiding information becasue it is absolutely irrelevant for this particular application. ask an electrician. your welder cabinet needs one just like a dryer. without 115v circuits and i dont know if there are any or not an additional neutral that a dryer uses is not needed. so why would you prefer to connect the cabinet to that neutral wire instead of the ground wire if you arent using 115v circuits ground and neutral are the same point becasue they connect to the same common bar. im not trying to offend you with this statement but you seriously need to learn electrical code before trying to correct someone else on it. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : nathan w collier

that is not the difference. an old electric dryer uses power the same way whether you still have the old 3-wire cord on it or a newer 4-wire cord. its the same way a brand new electric dryer with a 4-wire cord uses it. except for using the third wire for both neutral and case ground. due to the potential electrocution. you just told me that neutral and ground go to the same common bar and electrically they are the same point! the do.....and if youre arguing otherwise you are an absolute idiot. so explain the if you arent using the third leg to complete a circuit bit since they go back to the same common bar anyway and electrically they are the same point. do it. this is simple. electricity follows the shortest possible path to ground. with a seperate wire as neutral the electricity would have to flow from the appliance to the buss bar and back to the case of the unit to shock you. by sharing the third wire for dual duty if the power finds a shorter path to ground such as touching the case with one hand while grabbing a properly grounded appliance with the other the potential exists for electrocution. this is a non-issue with the welder becuase it doesnt use a neutral wire at all. the same wire that serves as ground and neutral on the 3 prong dryer serves only as case ground on the welder. construction code was changed. you can no longer build a house with a 3 prong dryer outlet. that is absolutely irrelevant to using an older 3 prong plug on a 230v welder that has no 115v circuit therefore the third wire is not serving as neutral. in the article i quoted i clearly show the plug on the new welder. guess what....it has three prongs. where would you suggest i connect the forth wire and what purpose would it serve a fourth wire isnt needed. and guess what... i said that already. then why the hell do you say my cord is dangerous becasue of the color of the insulation on the ground wire if you honestly believe that case ground and neutral go to different points in the fuse box then im done discussing this with you because you are completely ignorant to the subject matter at hand. did you advise site visitors that your cord is for your particular application at your house it also applies to your house if youre using a 3 prong welder. please before you respond again go remove the panel from your fuse box. youll see that ground and neutral share the same buss bar in your panel. they are the same point. the reason they use two different wires now is because what i explained before about power taking the shortest path to ground. if you dont understand what i mean by that ask. ask me or ask somebody but ask because you are arguing from a position of ignorance. even with solely 115v appliances in your home ground and neutral are still connected back at the service panel. so you tell me why do any appliances bother to include separate neutral and ground wires at all ive done that. look up. you need an electronics course. omg talk about irony..... -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote except that old dryers dont use the ground wire for case ground. they use the allegedly neutral white wire for that. this is not intended as an insult. it appears you are ignorant to how this works. the neutral wire and the ground wire go back to the same point in the electrical panel. the difference is in how the appliance uses the power. keep this in mind more to come further down. that is not the difference. an old electric dryer uses power the same way whether you still have the old 3-wire cord on it or a newer 4-wire cord. its the same way a brand new electric dryer with a 4-wire cord uses it. and proclaiming that therefore they require a neutral bar for the 115v circuits is misleading nonsense. all 115v circuits use the neutral conductor anyway. yes the 115v circuit needs a neutral wire. my welder does not have any 115v components inside therefore the wire that serves as neutral on a dryer serves as case ground on my welder. remove the panel cover from your fuse box at home you will see bare copper wires and copper wires insulated with white plastic going to the same common bar. electrically they are the same point. if i utilized a 115v circuit i would not use the same wire to serve as case ground due to the potential due to the potential wtf are you talking about now you just told me that neutral and ground go to the same common bar and electrically they are the same point! but the welder does not use teh wire as neutral it uses it as case ground. the obvious difference with dryers is the use of *another* hot wire typically a red one on the 230v circuits instead of the white neutral. an overlooked difference is that the 115v portions white neutral does double-duty as the chassis ground. on three prong outlets the third wire is indeed double-duty as common bar and case ground. this is irrelevant on a welder that has no 115v circuitry therefore it does not utilize the third wire as a neutral connection. if you arent using the third leg to complete a circuit it can very well serve as case ground because they bare wire for ground white wire for neutral both go back to the same common bar. so explain the if you arent using the third leg to complete a circuit bit since they go back to the same common bar anyway and electrically they are the same point. do it. why was the code changed if im absolutely full of shit that an electrocution hazard exists construction code was changed. you can no longer build a house with a 3 prong dryer outlet. that is absolutely irrelevant to using an older 3 prong plug on a 230v welder that has no 115v circuit therefore the third wire is not serving as neutral. in the article i quoted i clearly show the plug on the new welder. guess what....it has three prongs. where would you suggest i connect the forth wire and what purpose would it serve a fourth wire isnt needed. and guess what... i said that already. go shop brand new welders right now. despite the construction code change they still come with 3 prong plugs. why thats all they need. they dont utilize a 115v circuit like a dryer does. and guess what... i already said that your welder needs a 3-prong plug. its a simple enough matter to upgrade an outlet and to put a new 4-wire cord on an older dryer. its not simple enough when you only have 3 wires in your wall. 3 wire dryer plugs still meet code. they dont meet code on new construction. would you really rip your walls open from the dryer outlet to the fuse panel just to rewire it because new construction code changed ill admit that i havent done so on my own dryer but that doesnt mean ill hide information from others and make their choices for them. its not hiding information becasue it is absolutely irrelevant for this particular application. ask an electrician. did you advise site visitors that your cord is for your particular application at your house your welder cabinet needs one just like a dryer. without 115v circuits and i dont know if there are any or not an additional neutral that a dryer uses is not needed. so why would you prefer to connect the cabinet to that neutral wire instead of the ground wire if you arent using 115v circuits ground and neutral are the same point becasue they connect to the same common bar. even with solely 115v appliances in your home ground and neutral are still connected back at the service panel. so you tell me why do any appliances bother to include separate neutral and ground wires at all im not trying to offend you with this statement but you seriously need to learn electrical code before trying to correct someone else on it. you need an electronics course. you can do what the code says if you want to but you dont understand why youre doing any of it. like nell the trained car electric wiz who it turned out wasnt able to discuss batteries. .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote you attempted to describe current flow in a unit that isnt damaged. thats what i said - and youre struggling to describe a properly working appliance anyhow! lol not struggling at all. trying to help you understand it but in your foolishness you cannot see that either. and then i had to tell you a second time that i already said so - and youre struggling to describe a properly working appliance anyhow! means that i know it isnt damaged. i dont know why youre confused about this. you qualified the statement by throwing in frawed wire touching the sheetmetal. that is a damaged unit and you are an idiot. so thats what happened to you. no i didnt requalify your statement to something else after i just finished saying that you were struggling to describe a properly appliance. i tossed your silliness away and started a fresh new paragraph with something worthwhile. .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote i didnt say it was in your cord. liar. you brought the cord into this discussion to somehow discredit me. after youve been shown that you are wrong you backpeddle. nice try. i already told tom that its probably safer than my own dryer when he asked. and i repeated it to you pointed it out. you snipped that out of your reply and pretended it didnt happen. its in your instructions its in the what-ifs that are going to kill somebody. there are no what ifs for the cord used in the application for which it was intended. you are an idiot. and there are no what ifs for the mercedes jack used in the application for which it was intended either. you cant have it both ways loser. .

From : geyser

napalmheart wrote napalmheart wrote nathan w. collier wrote although this is sure to surprise many of you i am working on warming up to open carry. im not willing to sacrifice my tactical advantage of concealed carry but im trying to warm up to the idea none-the-less. if you are already familiar with our sister site http//concealedcarryforum.com im sure youll find yourself at home on our newest sister site http//opencarryforum.com and i hope to see you there. please share the link and get us off to a good start. new study explains whats up with chickenshit republican gun weenies. http//.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7623256.stm their research published in the journal science indicates that people who are sensitive to fear or threat are likely to support a right wing agenda. those who perceived less danger in a series of images and sounds were more inclined to support liberal policies. they found that subjects who were more easily startled tended to have political views that would be classified as more right wing being more in favour of capital punishment and higher defence spending but opposed to abortion rights. on the other hand you have people who are more supportive of pacifism and who advocate gun control - and there are lots of areas where people who are less sensitive to threat would project those kinds of feelings into the political arena. typical anti-gun pussy garbage rhetoric. explains why violent crime is soaring in the uk and oz. it says nothing at all about crime rates. criminals arent carrying guns because they feel frightened and paranoid out in the world they have some very different reasons. ill discuss that with you at length ken but i might call you a dolt again and youd be crushed. calling me names doesnt crush me particularily not by someone on usenet. especially by someone who supports positions that are ridiculous and dont fit into the real world. the study does explain why you smuggle your gun into places where guns are prohibited. it explains why punkin always keeps his gun within reach next to the bed even while hes sitting at his computer desk. it explains why nathan wont go out into the world without his concealed tactical advantage. please show me where i have smuggled my gun into places where guns are prohibited. thanks you saved me the trouble. if you are referring to this post made on 7/31/08 at 710 p.m. thats the one yep. i wonder how many places ive gone into while legally armed and concealed where the owner/manager believed the delusion that their prohibition of firearms made their business any safer i was referring to places that might not want customers to carry concealed on their might not the concrete their prohibition of firearms is gone and its going to be wishy-washy might not want now premises prohibit but that do not post a sign saying so not that i carried in places where i knew such rules existed. you were gloating about getting away with it. then you were cheered on with the atta boy ken! reply from the erratic one in oregon. in my statemichigan the arent required to do so. me thinketh that thou does exhibit doltishness far more than i. if you want to have a serious discussion about being armed vs. not being armed and which is preferable thats fine but im not a slave to answering usenet postings. when i get to it is when i get to it. did i call you a dolt again i was killfiled by you last time i did that. you announced so as a courtesy to me. .

From : tom lawrence

tom was trying to protect a.a.d.ts social unit. im toms bad guy been so for over a year. no guns in here. tom sweats and blinks rapidly when hes in a corner and shrinks away. first keep your bait. save it for someone who will bite. second how about we both agree to drop the snide remarks back and forth because thats getting nowhere. im certainly willing to step back listen and learn. maybe im missing something - its entirely possible. so please explain to me sincerely how nates recommended dryer extension cord for a welder is dangerous .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote that is not the difference. an old electric dryer uses power the same way whether you still have the old 3-wire cord on it or a newer 4-wire cord. its the same way a brand new electric dryer with a 4-wire cord uses it. except for using the third wire for both neutral and case ground. you said the difference is in how the appliance uses the power. making neutral double as ground is not how a device uses power. its just more nonsense exactly like your ridiculous summation therefore they require a neutral bar for the 115v circuits. due to the potential electrocution. lol! no no no... you ended the sentence with the potential. as electrical jargon apparently like you knew what you were talking about. that term potential has a specific electrical meaning in anytalk about electricity and it doesnt mean the potential for something to happen. and nobody would use the term so carelessly as you in this discussion if they knew what electrical potential is. but you dont. its more nonsense. you just told me that neutral and ground go to the same common bar and electrically they are the same point! the do.....and if youre arguing otherwise you are an absolute idiot. they arent the same point. the idiot said neutral and ground are electrically the same point but the idiot didnt see past the fuse box. so explain the if you arent using the third leg to complete a circuit bit since they go back to the same common bar anyway and electrically they are the same point. do it. this is simple. electricity follows the shortest possible path to ground. least resistance. im sure you wanted to say that. but it follows all paths to some degree. unless youre talking superconductors i suppose. are you the klutz who wrecked the atom smasher with a seperate wire as neutral the electricity would have to flow from the appliance to the buss bar and back to the case of the unit to shock you. no it wouldnt. by sharing the third wire for dual duty if the power finds a shorter path to ground such as touching the case with one hand while grabbing a properly grounded appliance with the other the third neutral wire has some ac ripple it isnt a steady flat zero relative to earth ground. sometimes it is above or below zero. then when the cycling big juice is at the same end at the same time it will rather flow through you and that washroom tub you reached your hand into to reach ground than through the neutral wire. the potential exists for electrocution. there you go again with potential. it would have been passable this time if you hadnt already misused the term but its too late. this is a non-issue with the welder becuase it doesnt use a neutral wire at all. the same wire that serves as ground and neutral on the 3 prong dryer serves only as case ground on the welder. and its a good thing that wire is at least as big as or bigger than the hot wires isnt it it is isnt it what kind of wire is in your laundry room walls anyway you only have 3 wires in your dryer outlet and you dont want to tear apart the walls isnt that what you said construction code was changed. you can no longer build a house with a 3 prong dryer outlet. that is absolutely irrelevant to using an older 3 prong plug on a 230v welder that has no 115v circuit therefore the third wire is not serving as neutral. in the article i quoted i clearly show the plug on the new welder. guess what....it has three prongs. where would you suggest i connect the forth wire and what purpose would it serve a fourth wire isnt needed. and guess what... i said that already. then why the hell do you say my cord is dangerous because you refuse to add information to your how-to tutorial. becasue of the color of the insulation on the ground wire if you honestly believe that case ground and neutral go to different points in the fuse box then im done discussing this with you because you are completely ignorant to the subject matter at hand. i never said that they go to different points. did you advise site visitors that your cord is for your particular application at your house it also applies to your house if youre using a 3 prong welder. please before you respond again go remove the panel from your fuse box. okay... ... ... done! added breakers and a new line for the tombstone. youll see that ground and neutral share the same buss bar in your panel. they are the same point. the reason they use two different wires now is because what i explained before about power taking the shortest path to ground. if you dont understand what i mean by that ask. ask me or ask somebody but ask because you are arguing from a position of ignorance. you went to vocational training school right even with solely 115v appliances in your home ground and neutral are still connected back at the service panel. so you tell me why do any appliances bother to includ

From : geyser

geyser wrote tom lawrence wrote box at home you will see bare copper wires and copper wires insulated with white plastic going to the same common bar. i was about to point that out to beryl err... excuse me geyser but you beat me to it. funny i have the same welder connected to essentially the same outlet though mines a 50a its wired exactly the same and yeah all my neutrals from my 110v circuits and grounds from my 220v circuits as well as the big copper wire running to this big long copper electrode buried outside my shop all terminate on the same bus. apparently you dont have a good ground path unless the pvc over the copper is green-ish in color. if its white you could be killed at near any moment. and i dont know if there are any or not well that there says it all doesnt it quoting ber.. geyser not nate if you arent using 115v circuits ground and neutral are the same point becasue they connect to the same common bar. but youre forgetting about the color nate. soooo important here... dope what do you think green wires are for why doesnt your table lamp just use the white wire to ground the lamp body since its already right there and neutral and ground are connected back at the panel anyway can you answer hellooooo this is familiar tom. like the multiple choice question with the teetertotter and box b again. i think green ground wires are soooo pretty thats the reason i like to use them. and then sticking them on with complementing green screws is a nice touch. it completes the theme. lovely. but thats just me. white is okay for you if you prefer white because theyre both really the same. in the same outer jacket they go side-by-side to the same common bar and are electrically the same point. somehow though clever green manages to find a shorter route. right nathan oh look tom theres a spider on the back of your shirt. .

From : nathan w collier

you are an idiot. the potential for electrocution. riiiight. nobody that knows much about electricity would have omitted for electrocution im not talking with someone who knows much about electricity. im discussing this with someone painfully ignorant to the technical aspects of electricity. im dumbing it down for simplicity in an effort to try to make you understand what youre painfully missing. were discussing electrical circuits here. a knowledgeable person would im not discussing it with a knoledgable person. nobody puts their welder inside the fuse panel. you power it from the fuse panel youd better know what goes on inside the fuse panel. yeah the same common bar! its the same bar! then you therefore acknowledge that it doesnt matter what color wire you use for case ground on a cord that is designed for a machine that doesnt use any 115v circuits. therefore you acknowledge that my cord is not dangerous afterall. im not changing the subject. you certainly are. you claimed that my cord was dangerous and now that it slowly sinks in that you are wrong youre desperately attempting to change the subject matter. put a meter on a bunch of 115v outlets throughout your house. between neutral and ground. all the rooms stuff turned on and off get a good sampling. tell us if it always read zero. as i said you are an idiot. this is a non-issue with the welder becuase it doesnt use a neutral wire at all. the same wire that serves as ground and neutral on the 3 prong dryer serves only as case ground on the welder. and youre reiterating this again why because you fail to grasp it. you cannot seem to understand it. ... a write-up on making a conversion/extension cord because ive seen this question asked many times. thats it. your page doesnt say anything about millermatic 210. nothing. the entire write up centers around making an extension cord to power the millermatic 210 i had just purchased. it includes pictures of the welder pictures of the plug on the millermatic 210 and a picture of the plug on the wall. it includes a picture of the data plate off the millermatic 210. if you cannot figure out the cord is for the millermatic 210 youre far too stupid to be doing any wiring anyway. .......but you know the cord is for the welder that was never a question. youre simply desperately grasping now to find fault because you realize that your initial criticisms were wrong. tom was trying to protect a.a.d.ts social unit. im toms bad guy been so for over a year. no guns in here. tom sweats and blinks rapidly when hes in a corner and shrinks away. that entire paragraph is ridiculous. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.comhttp//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : nathan w collier

you said the difference is in how the appliance uses the power. making neutral double as ground is not how a device uses power. its just more nonsense exactly like your ridiculous summation therefore they require a neutral bar for the 115v circuits. you are an idiot. if you combine the neutral and case ground on the cord of the appliance you run the risk of electrocution if you find a ground source. this is why certain older appliances would shock you if you touched more than one. one or both of them had a case ground shared with the neutral line. lol! no no no... you ended the sentence with the potential. you are an idiot. the potential for electrocution. that term potential has a specific electrical meaning in any talk about electricity and it doesnt mean the potential for something to happen. we are having a general conversation. the potential i referenced was potential for electrocution. youre simply to stuipid to realize what is plainly in front of you. they arent the same point. you are an idiot. in the fuse panel they are indeed the same point. least resistance. im sure you wanted to say that. certainly. for simplicity sake however the shortest path works just fine. afterall if a unit has a 4 wire plug in order for you to be shocked unless the unit itself is physically damaged the electricity would have to flow from the appliance up the neutral line to the buss bar in the fuse panel the same bar that the ground wire is connected to! and then back up the case ground wire to the case where your hand was touching assuming you found another ground source. this wouldnt happen because the case ground wire is shorter therefore has less resistance and will therefore be the path the electricity takes. a three wire plug doesnt offer this protection which is why the contruction code changed. that said in made some grand claims about how my cord was dangerous yet you still havent told me how it is dangerous. my welder uses no 115v circuit therefore the third wire is simple case ground. youre trying to cloud that fact that you are wrong and shouldnt have opened your fat mouth at all. - with a seperate wire as neutral the electricity would have to flow from the appliance to the buss bar and back to the case of the unit to shock you. no it wouldnt. you are an idiot. the third neutral wire has some ac ripple it isnt a steady flat zero relative to earth ground. youre talking about three wires on an appliance that uses the third wire as neutral. on the welder it is simple case ground. you are wrong and you are desperately trying to hide your lack of knowledge by changing the subject. you are an idiot. this is a non-issue with the welder becuase it doesnt use a neutral wire at all. the same wire that serves as ground and neutral on the 3 prong dryer serves only as case ground on the welder. and its a good thing that wire just admit you were wrong. my welder extension cord is absolutely safe for the application that it was designed for. then why the hell do you say my cord is dangerous because you refuse to add information to your how-to tutorial. you are an idiot. additional information is not needed. i didnt not show you how to make a universal extension cord. i showed you how to make an extension cord for a millermatic 210. if you try to use it in a different application it makes you the idiot that has already been established that you are. ahh too bad about tom l. came up with a witty comment about insulation colors worthy of geek boy a real zinger. he was trying to save you from yourself. you are an idiot who argues from ignorance. in as much as you attempt to cloud your own lack of knowledge on this subject you cannot tell me how you think my cord is dangerous. - -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote and this says nothing about the integrity of the posts. that information supplied by you says a *bunch* about what those posts were! the information said nothing about the integrity of the posts. were they schedule 40 pipe or were they galvanized chain link posts once again you dont know..but that doesnt stop you from arguing in ignorance. and i guess you still dont know if the posts were fakes made to look like the real thing or genuine pedestrian safety barriers. did you inspect the posts that you bent over and then decide that inspecting the truck wasnt necessary of course you didnt. you just drove away. stupid or just lazy i dont know but stupidity seems to be the case. .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote nah...im shaking my head in disbelief. lol. you are an idiot. like that article says youre panicking over all of this. you know nothing and you are an idiot are all youve got to give over and over. lol....and now youre just pathetic. - hows that you used to write well very persuasive stuff. you showed confidence rallied support got people like steve b. to reconsider their positions. but look at what youre putting out now. .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote you said the difference is in how the appliance uses the power. making neutral double as ground is not how a device uses power. its just more nonsense exactly like your ridiculous summation therefore they require a neutral bar for the 115v circuits. you are an idiot. if you combine the neutral and case ground on the cord of the appliance you run the risk of electrocution if you find a ground source. this is why certain older appliances would shock you if you touched more than one. one or both of them had a case ground shared with the neutral line. lol! no no no... you ended the sentence with the potential. you are an idiot. the potential for electrocution. riiiight. nobody that knows much about electricity would have omitted for electrocution and left the sentence hanging that way. potential has a special meaning. just like drop that doesnt mean oops got to pick it up i dropped it. i guess hvac guys dont have to know this. that term potential has a specific electrical meaning in any talk about electricity and it doesnt mean the potential for something to happen. we are having a general conversation. the potential i referenced was potential for electrocution. youre simply to stuipid to realize what is plainly in front of you. just a general conversation... who is going to believe that were discussing electrical circuits here. a knowledgeable person would have explicitly said potential for harm if that was what he meant hed absolutely *have* to! unfortunately you trotted out your understanding of potential in the wrong conversation. i think the games over. they arent the same point. you are an idiot. in the fuse panel they are indeed the same point. nobody puts their welder inside the fuse panel. least resistance. im sure you wanted to say that. certainly. for simplicity sake however the shortest path works just fine. heck yeah. but simplicity wont get you by here. afterall if a unit has a 4 wire plug in order for you to be shocked unless the unit itself is physically damaged the electricity would have to flow from the appliance up the neutral line to the buss bar in the fuse panel the same bar that the ground wire is connected to! yeah the same common bar! its the same bar! anybody here not get it yet and then back up the case ground wire to the case where your hand was touching assuming you found another ground source. this wouldnt happen because the case ground wire is shorter therefore has less resistance and will therefore be the path the electricity takes. a three wire plug doesnt offer this protection which is why the contruction code changed. that said in made some grand claims about how my cord was dangerous yet you still havent told me how it is dangerous. my welder uses no 115v circuit therefore the third wire is simple case ground. youre trying to cloud that fact that you are wrong and shouldnt have opened your fat mouth at all. - with a seperate wire as neutral the electricity would have to flow from the appliance to the buss bar and back to the case of the unit to shock you. no it wouldnt. you are an idiot. no im not. the third neutral wire has some ac ripple it isnt a steady flat zero relative to earth ground. youre talking about three wires on an appliance that uses the third wire as neutral. on the welder it is simple case ground. you are wrong and you are desperately trying to hide your lack of knowledge by changing the subject. you are an idiot. im not changing the subject. and im not limiting my comment above to three wires on an appliance that uses the third wire as neutral. put a meter on that special *point* in your fuse box. the point you like so much. right on the point both probes over and over and over. same zero all the time sure. put a meter on a bunch of 115v outlets throughout your house. between neutral and ground. all the rooms stuff turned on and off get a good sampling. tell us if it always read zero. this is a non-issue with the welder becuase it doesnt use a neutral wire at all. the same wire that serves as ground and neutral on the 3 prong dryer serves only as case ground on the welder. and youre reiterating this again why and its a good thing that wire just admit you were wrong. my welder extension cord is absolutely safe for the application that it was designed for. then why the hell do you say my cord is dangerous because you refuse to add information to your how-to tutorial. you are an idiot. additional information is not needed. i didnt not show you how to make a universal extension cord. i showed you how to make an extension cord for a millermatic 210. if you try to use it in a different ... a write-up on making a conversion/extension cord because ive seen this question asked many times. thats it. your page doesnt say anything about millermatic 210. nothing. a word search came

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote you are an idiot. the potential for electrocution. riiiight. nobody that knows much about electricity would have omitted for electrocution im not talking with someone who knows much about electricity. im discussing this with someone painfully ignorant to the technical aspects of electricity. im dumbing it down for simplicity in an effort to try to make you understand what youre painfully missing. we arent emailing each other. you know that youre talking to every lurker reading this discussion. its public google will keep this forever and we all know that you are doing your best. forget the foolish dumbing it down excuse it doesnt work. were discussing electrical circuits here. a knowledgeable person would im not discussing it with a knoledgable person. well definitely not as a knowledgeable person. nobody puts their welder inside the fuse panel. you power it from the fuse panel youd better know what goes on inside the fuse panel. oh! why then doesnt your web page inform readers about what goes on inside the fuse panel because that was just more irrelevant information... but now theyd better know its not hiding information becasue it is absolutely irrelevant for this particular application. - nathan yeah the same common bar! its the same bar! then you therefore acknowledge that it doesnt matter what color wire you use for case ground on a cord that is designed for a machine that doesnt use any 115v circuits. therefore you acknowledge that my cord is not dangerous afterall. think back nathan appears to take a superficial view of things and fails to ponder the what-ifs. youve made real progress supporting my statement. im not changing the subject. you certainly are. you claimed that my cord was dangerous and now that it slowly sinks in that you are wrong youre desperately attempting to change the subject matter. you decided to steer clear of ripple. ive been waiting. it isnt the bottle of cheap wine in your fridge. put a meter on a bunch of 115v outlets throughout your house. between neutral and ground. all the rooms stuff turned on and off get a good sampling. tell us if it always read zero. as i said you are an idiot. wow! talk about ignorance! you dont want to find out whats going on there away from the fuse box it will destroy your claim that electrically they are the same point. this is a non-issue with the welder becuase it doesnt use a neutral wire at all. the same wire that serves as ground and neutral on the 3 prong dryer serves only as case ground on the welder. and youre reiterating this again why because you fail to grasp it. you cannot seem to understand it. you repeat simple things because you have nowhere else to go. so you go in a circle. a small circle. ... a write-up on making a conversion/extension cord because ive seen this question asked many times. thats it. your page doesnt say anything about millermatic 210. nothing. the entire write up centers around making an extension cord to power the millermatic 210 i had just purchased. it includes pictures of the welder pictures of the plug on the millermatic 210 and a picture of the plug on the wall. it includes a picture of the data plate off the millermatic 210. if you cannot figure out the cord is for the millermatic 210 youre far too stupid to be doing any wiring anyway. obviously its for a millermatic 210 because ive seen this question asked many times. thats funny. ......but you know the cord is for the welder that was never a question. youre simply desperately grasping now to find fault because you realize that your initial criticisms were wrong. hopeless. grab your crayon and draw a picture of what you said electricity follows the shortest possible path to ground. with a seperate wire as neutral the electricity would have to flow from the appliance to the buss bar and back to the case of the unit to shock you. scan it then post it somewhere where we can see it. well go from there. tom was trying to protect a.a.d.ts social unit. im toms bad guy been so for over a year. no guns in here. tom sweats and blinks rapidly when hes in a corner and shrinks away. that entire paragraph is ridiculous. nope it isnt. .

From : nathan w collier

you know that im not impressed. not trying to impress you. im simply exposing you for the lying idiot that you are. you claimed that my cord was dangerous now im waiting on you to tell me how it is. you cant now that ive explained basic electricity to you there is no where for you to take your argument. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : christopher d thompson

on sat 27 sep 2008 120945 -0700 geyser wrote geyser wrote ... i was jacking up my moms old mercedes once. the factory jack is a screw-type worm gear thing. stick the little protruding arm into the hole in the body below the door crank the handle around and that whole side of the car front and rear is lifted. but then the car moved just a little bit. then it moved some more the jack keeled over and the car was quickly back on the ground. the jack has a tiny base its little arm is round the hole it fit into is round and the opposite side wheels slid. and now im warning people about jacks such as that which have no stability. a fuller picture of how the unexpected things catch you everybody knows to block the opposite wheel so the car wont roll. probably both wheels in a case where one whole side of the car is jacked up. make doubly sure that the car can not roll off the jack. this car didnt have to roll. it twisted spun around a vertical axis as the opposite wheels slipped and dragged across gravel. so because you jacked a car up on a unstable surface you think this is a good example of someone who knew what they were doing got caught off guard im gonna disagree.... -- chris .

From : nathan w collier

we arent emailing each other. you know that youre talking to every lurker reading this discussion. its public regardless. im talking to you someone who doesnt understand electricity in a public forum. you power it from the fuse panel youd better know what goes on inside the fuse panel. oh! why then doesnt your web page inform readers about what goes on inside the fuse panel because that was just more irrelevant information... but now theyd better know it isnt needed. the tech article is not about fuse boxes. the tech article is for showing you how to plug your millermatic 210 into a dryer plug and the cord provided is perfectly safe for that application. you are pitifully reaching way outside the context of the article in a pitiful attempt at diverting the attention from the fact that your criticsim was wrong from the start. er unless you can substantiate your ridiculous claim and tell me how the cord is dangerous which you originally claimed. we both know you cant. own it so we can move forward. then you therefore acknowledge that it doesnt matter what color wire you use for case ground on a cord that is designed for a machine that doesnt use any 115v circuits. therefore you acknowledge that my cord is not dangerous afterall. think back nathan appears to take a superficial view of things and fails to ponder the what-ifs. youve made real progress supporting my statement. lol you are an idiot. tell me how the cord is dangerous. specifically. you cant. stop trying to distract the reader from that key point and just own your failure. you decided to steer clear of ripple. ive been waiting. lol...you are an idiot. i will explain this after we get past your initial criticism calling my cord dangerous. you were wrong now own it. it will destroy your claim that electrically they are the same point. lol...not at all. explanation will come after we get past your initial criticism that was wrong. either tell me how my cord is dangerous or admit that you were wrong which you are. .....i also noticed you didnt respond to toms question at all. that says everything. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : geyser

tom lawrence wrote tom was trying to protect a.a.d.ts social unit. im toms bad guy been so for over a year. no guns in here. tom sweats and blinks rapidly when hes in a corner and shrinks away. first keep your bait. save it for someone who will bite. hey! you threw bait to me. and the guy who always bit well sadly weve lost him. second how about we both agree to drop the snide remarks back and forth because thats getting nowhere. im certainly willing to step back listen and learn. maybe im missing something - its entirely possible. so please explain to me sincerely how nates recommended dryer extension cord for a welder is dangerous its probably less dangerous than my dryer. but nathan isnt competent to give anyone lessons on homemade wiring hacks. the guy who knows how to replace a plug on a lamp cord sure doesnt need nathans advice. the other guy with scant knowledge of electricity is at risk with such kindergarten quality lessons. he may electrocute himself just sticking a meter into the hot 230v socket like nathan shows in the picture. he might be inspired to make his own custom conversion cord so he can weld and still dry the clothes at the same time. he might make a cord for you after he saw nathans article. compare the article i cited http//www.acmehowto.com/howto/appliance/dryer/edryer/repair/replace-power-cord.php the new power line has 4 wires and a plug with 4 prongs the additional wire is used to ground the appliance and to prevent dangerous and potentially deadly electrical shocks. never downgrade the outlet to a 3 prong outlet that is not safe and not up to nec code. with nathans http//collierwelding.com/tech/weldercord/index.html disclaimer do not try this at home. once more nathan appears to take a superficial view of things and fails to ponder the what-ifs. .

From : nathan w collier

steel posts sunk in concrete that says nothing of the integrity of the posts. any post that you can impact without even feeling it at all is not capable of doing frame damage. you aren an idiot speaking from ignorance once again. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : nathan w collier

nah...im shaking my head in disbelief. lol. you are an idiot. like that article says youre panicking over all of this. you know nothing and you are an idiot are all youve got to give over and over. lol....and now youre just pathetic. - -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote translation of that -- im still stalling i agree fully. you are stalling. im trying to move you forward. i tried to analyize and re-explain your gibberish for you but as everyone saw there wasnt much to work with. its all garbage. i threw up a drawing according to your specs have a look http//img88.imageshack.us/my.phpimage=wiresre8.jpg anything you want to change .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote which makes it rather less important to fret over. i guess it was simpler for you to attempt. once again you foolishly challenged my statement. when i pointed out to you that i had indeed qualified the statement by saying unless the unit is damaged you once again failed to acknowledge that you messed up. you are an idiot and you have no integrity. you attempted to describe current flow in a unit that isnt damaged. thats what i said - and youre struggling to describe a properly working appliance anyhow! and then i had to tell you a second time that i already said so - and youre struggling to describe a properly working appliance anyhow! means that i know it isnt damaged. i dont know why youre confused about this. .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote when the potential danger lol....so you can use potential but i cant thats correct. i know how to use the term here. i say potential danger so theres no question about which meaning im using. you just say potential because you dont know any better. ...and you still havent told me what potential danger exists in my cord. you cant because it doesnt. you were wrong. i didnt say it was in your cord. its in your instructions its in the what-ifs that are going to kill somebody. but you know that. .

From : nathan w collier

i got my new 250 round magazine for my glock .40 today. holy smokes...i didnt know such a beast existed. who makes it -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : tom lawrence

its probably less dangerous than my dryer. agreed. but nathan isnt competent to give anyone lessons on homemade wiring hacks. disagree... but since youll never change your mind theres not much point in debating this. kindergarten quality lessons. he may electrocute himself just sticking a meter into the hot 230v socket like nathan shows in the picture. well... if you dont even have the common sense to not touch the shiny part of the probes when measuring voltage there isnt a lot of hope for you. to take that back to the main focus of this group do you have the same sort of problem when for example someone asks about replacing a worn front bearing and i or anyone else tells them to pull the wheel off etc. etc. - but we dont bother to tell them now be real careful jacking up the truck and be sure to use a quality set of jack stands because you should never work under a vehicle supported by only a jack etc. etc. theres an assumption of a certain level of competence with any of this diy-er advice. i know youre smart enough to understand this so then the only reason to object and complain about it is to simply create an argument - to be a pain in someones ass. nathan appears to take a superficial view of things and fails to ponder the what-ifs. i see... so your real problem is with nate on more of a personal level and not really with any of his suggestions or advice per se. had someone else with whom who had no pre-conceived opinion of and perhaps a different set of letters after his name gave the same advice to someone wanting to run a 220v welder off of an older 3-prong 220v dryer outlet you wouldnt have the same reaction - because once you take personalities out of the picture theres absolutely nothing electrically wrong with the way nate wired up his welder. and i know you know that. .

From : geyser

tom lawrence wrote its probably less dangerous than my dryer. agreed. nathans work doesnt earn the good housekeeping seal of approval. he begins with a shaky understanding then guesswork then cross your fingers. but nathan isnt competent to give anyone lessons on homemade wiring hacks. disagree... but since youll never change your mind theres not much point in debating this. kindergarten quality lessons. he may electrocute himself just sticking a meter into the hot 230v socket like nathan shows in the picture. well... if you dont even have the common sense to not touch the shiny part of the probes when measuring voltage there isnt a lot of hope for you. to take that back to the main focus of this group do you have the same sort of problem when for example someone asks about replacing a worn front bearing and i or anyone else tells them to pull the wheel off etc. etc. - but we dont bother to tell them now be real careful jacking up the truck and be sure to use a quality set of jack stands because you should never work under a vehicle supported by only a jack etc. etc. i hope the consequences are obvious enough there. but still... i was jacking up my moms old mercedes once. the factory jack is a screw-type worm gear thing. stick the little protruding

From : nathan w collier

its probably less dangerous than my dryer. you are an idiot. just admit that you were simply wrong. there is absolutely nothing wrong with the cord i made. nothing. but nathan isnt competent to give anyone lessons on homemade wiring hacks. you know nothing of my qualifications. you know nothing of me other than what i have told you. heres the bottom line. you know shit about electricity but you wanted to start some shit so you claimed my cord was dangerous. i explained it to you so you scurry like a rat to your fuse box and guess what.....holy shit nathan is right!. so you scurry over to google to try and find fault but you cant. you launch an effort to cloud your idiocy with attempts at changing the subject matter using content you found on your google search. youll never admit it but thats pretty much sums it up. you know there is nothing dangerous about the cord. disclaimer do not try this at home. youre damn straight. that standard disclaimer goes on everything because some people take you for example are just plain stupid and when you factor in stupid you can mess up anything. it is not my obligation to try to save you from yourself by doing stupid things. if you follow my instructions for building a cord for your welder you wont have any troubles at all and you know this. you just dont have the integrity to own up to it. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : nathan w collier

you are the subject not the cord. lol...so you admit that my cord is not dangerous afterall...and in doing so you admit that you are an idiot for ever claiming it was. glad we got that straight. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : nathan w collier

so theres also nothing wrong with the way nathan inspected his bumper lol...you are an idiot. you know nothing of the poles the bumper or the truck. you only know what i happened to list at the time. youre basing your argument on incomplete facts. you are an idiot. thanks for proving it time and time again. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote so theres also nothing wrong with the way nathan inspected his bumper lol...you are an idiot. you know nothing of the poles the bumper or the truck. you only know what i happened to list at the time. youre basing your argument on incomplete facts. you are an idiot. thanks for proving it time and time again. you supplied the facts. you were concerned only with cosmetics im the one who had to tell you to inspect for structural damage under the front of your own truck. and you argued against it! the ranch hand bumper isnt even scratched it paid for itself as the steel posts are sunk in concrete and it only has a little yellow paint on it. was literally going maybe 10-12 mph and literally never even felt the impact of the posts. i dont know if the posts themselves were filled with concrete but im really not concerned about frame damage. .

From : nathan w collier

you supplied the facts. i supplied the details i wanted to bother sharing. you were concerned only with cosmetics there was no need to be concerned with anything structural. im the one who had to tell you to inspect for structural damage under the front of your own truck. and you argued against it! there was no need and you are still an idiot. the ranch hand bumper isnt even scratched it paid for itself as the steel posts are sunk in concrete and it only has a little yellow paint on it. was literally going maybe 10-12 mph and literally never even felt the impact of the posts. i dont know if the posts themselves were filled with concrete but im really not concerned about frame damage. exactly. i wasnt at all concerned with frame damage. there was none. the posts were sunk in concrete but that says nothing about the integrity of the posts. for all you know they could have been chain link fence posts that you could drive over with a lawn mower. you didnt have all the facts and once again you criticize anyway. you are an idiot. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote its probably less dangerous than my dryer. you are an idiot. just admit that you were simply wrong. there is absolutely nothing wrong with the cord i made. nothing. nathan appears to take a superficial view of things and fails to ponder the what-ifs. you are the subject not the cord. the cord instructions are an example and yes indeed you dont give a rats proverbial ass about a what-if that happens to somebody else because you cant see it from here. but nathan isnt competent to give anyone lessons on homemade wiring hacks. you know nothing of my qualifications. you know nothing of me other than what i have told you. what you have told me says a considerable bit about you. qualifications are practically worthless! meet minimal requirements and you qualify. score 70% and you pass. congratulations heres your license and your diploma suitable for framing. anybody really want to trust a guy who knows 70% of what hes doing heres the bottom line. you know shit about electricity but you wanted to start some shit so you claimed my cord was dangerous. i explained it to you so you scurry like a rat to your fuse box and guess what.....holy shit nathan is right!. so you scurry over to google to try and find fault but you cant. you launch an effort to cloud your idiocy with attempts at changing the subject matter using content you found on your google search. the subject is the same. i added the breakers and 230v line years ago. i watched everything the electrical contractor did on this house when it was built 18 years ago. sometimes i tidied up sloppy work after he left for the day. i didnt use google. i argue with what i remember from a few college electronics courses. i extrapolate from that if i need to figure out something that i wasnt taught. youll never admit it but thats pretty much sums it up. you know there is nothing dangerous about the cord. disclaimer do not try this at home. whats that cliche supposed to do ease your conscience disclaimer do not try this at home. youre damn straight. that standard disclaimer goes on everything because some people take you for example are just plain stupid and when you you posted the article for newbies. just plain stupid people as you call them. factor in stupid you can mess up anything. it is not my obligation to try theyll mess up anything as you say. to save you from yourself by doing stupid things. if you follow my instructions for building a cord for your welder you wont have any troubles at all and you know this. you just dont have the integrity to own up to it. you dont care if plain stupid people mess up with 230 volts in their hands. youre proud of your ability to put a plug on a cord and you want to show off the achievement. youre unable to write an article deep enough to teach plain stupid about old 230v dryer wiring and for good reason. youre a trade school product. just copy what youre told and dont ask questions. your qualified instructors mistakes are imprinted onto you and youll imprint them onto the next guy just as your instructor acquired them from the qualified trade school graduate-cum-instructor before him. ha i know how it works. went to an amt school myself. luckily i went to college first. some very good instructors there at the amt place usually they were the oldtimers. some absolutely unqualified and ignorant instructors too and at least one of them secretly knew it. and then he knew that i knew it. but do not try this at home solves all nathans problems. .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote we arent emailing each other. you know that youre talking to every lurker reading this discussion. its public regardless. im talking to you someone who doesnt understand electricity in a public forum. you know that im not impressed. its the others youre trying to convince now. you power it from the fuse panel youd better know what goes on inside the fuse panel. oh! why then doesnt your web page inform readers about what goes on inside the fuse panel because that was just more irrelevant information... but now theyd better know it isnt needed. the tech article is not about fuse boxes. the tech article you power it from the fuse panel youd better know what goes on inside the fuse panel. it isnt needed. the tech article is not about fuse boxes flipflopper. is for showing you how to plug your millermatic 210 into a dryer plug and the cord provided is perfectly safe for that application. you are pitifully reaching way outside the context of the article in a pitiful attempt at diverting the attention from the fact that your criticsim was wrong from the start. nailed it! see you wont reach outside the context of the article. its become apparent that you cant. thats where the what-ifs lie for innocently blind followers of garbage info found across the internet. you dont care. er unless you can substantiate your ridiculous claim and tell me how the cord is dangerous which you originally claimed. we both know you cant. own it so we can move forward. we can move forward any time. lets move. how you doing with your crayon i want the picture posted. then you therefore acknowledge that it doesnt matter what color wire you use for case ground on a cord that is designed for a machine that doesnt use any 115v circuits. therefore you acknowledge that my cord is not dangerous afterall. think back nathan appears to take a superficial view of things and fails to ponder the what-ifs. youve made real progress supporting my statement. lol you are an idiot. tell me how the cord is dangerous. specifically. you cant. stop trying to distract the reader from that key point and just own your failure. nathan your points are just so small. i want that picture. you decided to steer clear of ripple. ive been waiting. lol...you are an idiot. i will explain this after we get past your initial criticism calling my cord dangerous. you were wrong now own it. explain it now. picture/explain move it forward. it will destroy your claim that electrically they are the same point. lol...not at all. explanation will come after we get past your initial now. criticism that was wrong. either tell me how my cord is dangerous or admit that you were wrong which you are. ....i also noticed you didnt respond to toms question at all. that says everything. what question is that maybe your server didnt catch up. .

From : nathan w collier

i can only consider possibilities that come to mind. coming from you im certain that would be a very short list. - -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : nathan w collier

translation of that -- im still stalling i agree fully. you are stalling. just admit that your initial criticism of the cord was wrong. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote youre getting so emotional. nah...im shaking my head in disbelief. lol. you are an idiot. like that article says youre panicking over all of this. you know nothing and you are an idiot are all youve got to give over and over. .

From : nathan w collier

when the potential danger lol....so you can use potential but i cant ....and you still havent told me what potential danger exists in my cord. you cant because it doesnt. you were wrong. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote you know that im not impressed. not trying to impress you. im simply exposing you for the lying idiot that you are. you claimed that my cord was dangerous now im waiting on you to tell me how it is. youre stalling thats what youre doing. its probably less dangerous than my dryer. who said that you cant now that ive explained basic electricity to you there is no where for you to take your argument. you havent explained anything. you want me to stop now with the promise that youre going to explain after. .

From : geyser

geyser wrote tom lawrence wrote snip so theres also nothing wrong with the way nathan inspected his bumper how about yes or no here dont skip the question. hellooo lol it happened again. ill have to do it for you. yes nathan was knowingly and willingly negligent in his failure to inspect the truck for damage after the collision. the physics of the event were explained to him with an excellent explanation and examples to illustrate why it didnt matter that he hardly felt the impact but nathan had no interest. his bumper was still pretty and all he wanted was a new fender. .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote you supplied the facts. i supplied the details i wanted to bother sharing. you were concerned only with cosmetics there was no need to be concerned with anything structural. im the one who had to tell you to inspect for structural damage under the front of your own truck. and you argued against it! there was no need and you are still an idiot. the ranch hand bumper isnt even scratched it paid for itself as the steel posts are sunk in concrete and it only has a little yellow paint on it. was literally going maybe 10-12 mph and literally never even felt the impact of the posts. i dont know if the posts themselves were filled with concrete but im really not concerned about frame damage. exactly. i wasnt at all concerned with frame damage. there was none. the posts were sunk in concrete but that says nothing about the integrity of the posts. for all you know they could have been chain link fence posts that you could drive over with a lawn mower. you didnt have all the facts and once again you criticize anyway. you are an idiot. perfect! steel posts sunk in concrete but for all nathan or anyone else knows they could have been paper mache movie props so nathan wasnt at all concerned. i would never put my faith in any piece of equipment that you serviced. your advice is worthless. your assurances that you understand what youre doing with electricity are worthless. and guns .

From : geyser

geyser wrote .... i was jacking up my moms old mercedes once. the factory jack is a screw-type worm gear thing. stick the little protruding arm into the hole in the body below the door crank the handle around and that whole side of the car front and rear is lifted. but then the car moved just a little bit. then it moved some more the jack keeled over and the car was quickly back on the ground. the jack has a tiny base its little arm is round the hole it fit into is round and the opposite side wheels slid. and now im warning people about jacks such as that which have no stability. a fuller picture of how the unexpected things catch you everybody knows to block the opposite wheel so the car wont roll. probably both wheels in a case where one whole side of the car is jacked up. make doubly sure that the car can not roll off the jack. this car didnt have to roll. it twisted spun around a vertical axis as the opposite wheels slipped and dragged across gravel. .

From : geyser

christopher d. thompson wrote on sat 27 sep 2008 120945 -0700 geyser wrote geyser wrote ... i was jacking up my moms old mercedes once. the factory jack is a screw-type worm gear thing. stick the little protruding arm into the hole in the body below the door crank the handle around and that whole side of the car front and rear is lifted. but then the car moved just a little bit. then it moved some more the jack keeled over and the car was quickly back on the ground. the jack has a tiny base its little arm is round the hole it fit into is round and the opposite side wheels slid. and now im warning people about jacks such as that which have no stability. a fuller picture of how the unexpected things catch you everybody knows to block the opposite wheel so the car wont roll. probably both wheels in a case where one whole side of the car is jacked up. make doubly sure that the car can not roll off the jack. this car didnt have to roll. it twisted spun around a vertical axis as the opposite wheels slipped and dragged across gravel. so because you jacked a car up on a unstable surface you think this is a good example of someone who knew what they were doing got caught off guard im gonna disagree.... the surface was a factor but that isnt why it caught me. i knew we were on gravel. a slick and dusty concrete garage floor might have produced the same result. i was thinking only about roll dont let the car roll. and then it corkscrewed down intead of rolling! that mercedes jack has a little base about like the foot on a motorcycle kickstand. im sure it could also sink into soft asphalt on a summer day. im sure because i saw my bike slowly falling over when i parked it on soft asphalt on a summer day. i did make a mistake about the single jack point on the cars side though it has two. might have been a 914 that made me remember a single hole under the door. http//www.p914.com/p914-resources/p914-paint/p914-paint-1974-u2v9-01.jpg .

From : christopher d thompson

on sat 27 sep 2008 153421 -0700 geyser wrote christopher d. thompson wrote on sat 27 sep 2008 120945 -0700 geyser wrote geyser wrote ... i was jacking up my moms old mercedes once. the factory jack is a screw-type worm gear thing. stick the little protruding arm into the hole in the body below the door crank the handle around and that whole side of the car front and rear is lifted. but then the car moved just a little bit. then it moved some more the jack keeled over and the car was quickly back on the ground. the jack has a tiny base its little arm is round the hole it fit into is round and the opposite side wheels slid. and now im warning people about jacks such as that which have no stability. a fuller picture of how the unexpected things catch you everybody knows to block the opposite wheel so the car wont roll. probably both wheels in a case where one whole side of the car is jacked up. make doubly sure that the car can not roll off the jack. this car didnt have to roll. it twisted spun around a vertical axis as the opposite wheels slipped and dragged across gravel. so because you jacked a car up on a unstable surface you think this is a good example of someone who knew what they were doing got caught off guard

From : nathan w collier

the surface was a factor but that isnt why it caught me. i knew we were on gravel. a slick and dusty concrete garage floor might have produced the same result. i was thinking only about roll dont let the car roll. and then it corkscrewed down intead of rolling! that mercedes jack has a little base about like the foot on a motorcycle kickstand. im sure it could also sink into soft asphalt on a summer day. im sure because i saw my bike slowly falling over when i parked it on soft asphalt on a summer day. i did make a mistake about the single jack point on the cars side though it has two. might have been a 914 that made me remember a single hole under the door. http//www.p914.com/p914-resources/p914-paint/p914-paint-1974- u2v9-01.jpg so lets go over this again..... you used a emergency use only jack..the one made to be able to store in the car without taking up much room instead of using a service jack. then used that inferior jack on a unstable surface. now you admit that you used the wrong jack point. yet you expect us to accept this as a valid point about someone who knew what they were doing getting caught by surprise. see theres an assumed level of competence and you apparently didnt have it. well i still submit my disagreement. keep arguing your proving my point quite well. -- chris . 222 345985 0-adnfm25jfsxkpvnz2dnuvzopinz2d@bresnan.com you used a emergency use only jack..the one made to be able to store in the car without taking up much room instead of using a service jack. then used that inferior jack on a unstable surface. now you admit that you used the wrong jack point. ....and coming from someone who accuses me of not considering the possibilities. - what an idiot. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote that says nothing of the integrity of the posts. a school parking lot. they were painted yellow. planted in concrete. $300 each to replace. and this says nothing about the integrity of the posts. that information supplied by you says a *bunch* about what those posts were! you really are an idiot. i would have checked out the truck right there in the parking lot. youre the idiot who just drove away onto icy roads without even thinking about it. .

From : nathan w collier

which makes it rather less important to fret over. i guess it was simpler for you to attempt. once again you foolishly challenged my statement. when i pointed out to you that i had indeed qualified the statement by saying unless the unit is damaged you once again failed to acknowledge that you messed up. you are an idiot and you have no integrity. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : nathan w collier

and this says nothing about the integrity of the posts. that information supplied by you says a *bunch* about what those posts were! the information said nothing about the integrity of the posts. were they schedule 40 pipe or were they galvanized chain link posts once again you dont know..but that doesnt stop you from arguing in ignorance. you are an idiot. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : geyser

geyser wrote nathan w. collier wrote ... we can move forward any time. lets move. how you doing with your crayon i want the picture posted. so im drawing what i think nathan would draw and nathan sez... with a seperate wire as neutral the electricity would have to flow from the appliance to the buss bar and back to the case of the unit to shock you. if a unit has a 4 wire plug in order for you to be shocked unless the unit itself is physically damaged the electricity would have to flow from the appliance up the neutral line to the buss bar in the fuse panel the same bar that the ground wire is connected to! and then back up the case ground wire to the case where your hand was touching assuming you found another ground source. this wouldnt happen because the case ground wire is shorter therefore has less resistance and will therefore be the path the electricity takes. .... i guess the electricity first has to flow away through the white wire to the buss bar. the same bar that the ground wire is connected to! then it wouldnt come back to the appliance through the ground wire because that wire is shorter and has less resistance so therefore thats the path it would take wtf does that mean it doesnt make sense. and youre struggling to describe a properly working appliance anyhow! the electricity has reached *the point* the same bar that the ground wire is connected to! and theres no charge on the grounded case to make the electricity want to come back. think a hot wire is frayed and touching the sheetmetal. now the electricity doesnt have to return through the neutral wire to the buss bar the same bar that the ground wire is connected to! in fact most of the time the machine isnt even turned on and it cant reach the neutral wire but nathan doesnt know that. the zero green wire carries it away. in fact zero attracts it and pulls it away. and if you used white instead of green for a ground well maybe theres another better zero real close by. maybe that washroom tub that you stuck your hand into. then you therefore acknowledge that it doesnt matter what color wire you use for case ground on a cord that is designed for a machine that doesnt use any 115v circuits. nope wont acknowledge anything of the sort. youve never even said anything about having only one machine on the circuit. what if... ah but nathan doesnt care! the cord works! .

From : nathan w collier

if a unit has a 4 wire plug in order for you to be shocked unless the unit itself is physically damaged the electricity would have to flow from the appliance up the neutral line to the buss bar in the fuse panel the same bar that the ground wire is connected to! and then back up the case ground wire to the case where your hand was touching assuming you found another ground source. this wouldnt happen because the case ground wire is shorter therefore has less resistance and will therefore be the path the electricity takes. ... i guess the electricity first has to flow away through the white wire to the buss bar. the same bar that the ground wire is connected to! then it wouldnt come back to the appliance through the ground wire because that wire is shorter and has less resistance so therefore thats the path it would take wtf does that mean it doesnt make sense. and youre struggling to describe a properly working appliance anyhow! the electricity has reached *the point* the same bar that the ground wire is connected to! and theres no charge on the grounded case to make the electricity want to come back. think a hot wire is frayed and touching the sheetmetal. hey idiot look above where i wrote unless you unit itself is physically damaged! if a hot wire is frayed and touching the case the unit is physically damaged. pay attention and comprehend what you read before you try to challenge it. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote its probably less dangerous than my dryer. who said that wrong. just say i was wrong and be done with it. you were wrong. now that ive explained electrical principle to you you know you were wrong. just own it. neither of us has explained electrical principle. maybe thats where we should have started to give you a toehold. .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote steel posts sunk in concrete that says nothing of the integrity of the posts. a school parking lot. they were painted yellow. planted in concrete. $300 each to replace. any post that you can impact without even feeling it at all is not capable of doing frame damage. you aren an idiot speaking from ignorance once again. already explained to you in the thread. here it is again need more suspension components might be a good example. light and unloaded barreling across speed bumps youre going to get a bone-jarring ride. your springs and dampers wont see a lot of action though. take the same ride with 2000 lbs. in the bed and ahhh enjoy the luxury. now the suspension is suffering the punishment. .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote yes nathan was knowingly and willingly negligent in his failure to inspect the truck youre an idiot. you know nothing of the poles i hit or if they were even capable of doing any damage. youre simply an idiot. youre getting so emotional. .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote you used a emergency use only jack..the one made to be able to store in the car without taking up much room instead of using a service jack. then used that inferior jack on a unstable surface. now you admit that you used the wrong jack point. ...and coming from someone who accuses me of not considering the possibilities. - i can only consider possibilities that come to mind. why would this one ever come to mind if youd never seen it before what an idiot. yawn repetition of tired lines the smileys your repertoire has been exhausted. .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote havent met your cord. havent seen copies of it dont know where or how they might be in use. translation -- i was wrong nathan...and im an idiot. translation of that -- im still stalling... cant explain what i said... cant draw anything that makes any sense. .

From : nathan w collier

think a hot wire is frayed and touching the sheetmetal. hey idiot look above where i wrote unless you unit itself is physically damaged! if a hot wire is frayed and touching the case the unit is physically damaged. pay attention and comprehend what you read before you try to challenge it. oh oh please pay attention. and youre struggling to describe a properly working appliance anyhow! means that i know it isnt damaged. if the appliance isnt damaged it wouldnt have a frayed hot wire touching the case. i call you retarded but it would be an insult to al lthe special people in the world. ill just stick with calling you idiot. idiot. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : nathan w collier

wrong. just say i was wrong and be done with it. you were wrong. its been clearly proven by now that you are wrong with your initial criticism. you simply havent the integrity to own it. ....no surprise. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote if a unit has a 4 wire plug in order for you to be shocked unless the unit itself is physically damaged the electricity would have to flow from the appliance up the neutral line to the buss bar in the fuse panel the same bar that the ground wire is connected to! and then back up the case ground wire to the case where your hand was touching assuming you found another ground source. this wouldnt happen because the case ground wire is shorter therefore has less resistance and will therefore be the path the electricity takes. ... i guess the electricity first has to flow away through the white wire to the buss bar. the same bar that the ground wire is connected to! then it wouldnt come back to the appliance through the ground wire because that wire is shorter and has less resistance so therefore thats the path it would take wtf does that mean it doesnt make sense. and youre struggling to describe a properly working appliance anyhow! the electricity has reached *the point* the same bar that the ground wire is connected to! and theres no charge on the grounded case to make the electricity want to come back. think a hot wire is frayed and touching the sheetmetal. hey idiot look above where i wrote unless you unit itself is physically damaged! if a hot wire is frayed and touching the case the unit is physically damaged. pay attention and comprehend what you read before you try to challenge it. oh oh please pay attention. and youre struggling to describe a properly working appliance anyhow! means that i know it isnt damaged. .

From : geyser

christopher d. thompson wrote on sat 27 sep 2008 153421 -0700 geyser wrote christopher d. thompson wrote on sat 27 sep 2008 120945 -0700 geyser wrote geyser wrote ... i was jacking up my moms old mercedes once. the factory jack is a screw-type worm gear thing. stick the little protruding arm into the hole in the body below the door crank the handle around and that whole side of the car front and rear is lifted. but then the car moved just a little bit. then it moved some more the jack keeled over and the car was quickly back on the ground. the jack has a tiny base its little arm is round the hole it fit into is round and the opposite side wheels slid. and now im warning people about jacks such as that which have no stability. a fuller picture of how the unexpected things catch you everybody knows to block the opposite wheel so the car wont roll. probably both wheels in a case where one whole side of the car is jacked up. make doubly sure that the car can not roll off the jack. this car didnt have to roll. it twisted spun around a vertical axis as the opposite wheels slipped and dragged across gravel. so because you jacked a car up on a unstable surface you think this is a good example of someone who knew what they were doing got caught off guard im gonna disagree.... the surface was a factor but that isnt why it caught me. i knew we were on gravel. a slick and dusty concrete garage floor might have produced the same result. i was thinking only about roll dont let the car roll. and then it corkscrewed down intead of rolling! that mercedes jack has a little base about like the foot on a motorcycle kickstand. im sure it could also sink into soft asphalt on a summer day. im sure because i saw my bike slowly falling over when i parked it on soft asphalt on a summer day. i did make a mistake about the single jack point on the cars side though it has two. might have been a 914 that made me remember a single hole under the door. http//www.p914.com/p914-resources/p914-paint/p914-paint-1974- u2v9-01.jpg so lets go over this again..... you used a emergency use only jack..the one made to be able to store in the car without taking up much room instead of using a service jack. then used that inferior jack on a unstable surface. now you admit that you used the wrong jack point. got a floor jack and its a heavy industrial one. not one that would even pull through gravel without plowing a ditch. got various other jacks too and none of them will fit under a 450sl. cant even see under a 450sl. the bumpers arent designed to be used for lifting. of course i used the mercedes jack. it fits the correct jack points. yes an unstable surface. made sure the jack was firmly planted and wouldnt slip made sure the car wouldnt roll and away we went. not the wrong jack point. whichever it was it was for the wheel i wanted to raise. yet you expect us to accept this as a valid point about someone who knew what they were doing getting caught by surprise. accept it or dont makes little difference to me. see theres an assumed level of competence and you apparently didnt have it. and you would have foreseen the car yawing in a way that parked cars just dont move. uh huh. well i still submit my disagreement. keep arguing your proving my point quite well. first make a point then well see about proving it or not. .

From : nathan w collier

that says nothing of the integrity of the posts. a school parking lot. they were painted yellow. planted in concrete. $300 each to replace. and this says nothing about the integrity of the posts. you really are an idiot. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote think a hot wire is frayed and touching the sheetmetal. hey idiot look above where i wrote unless you unit itself is physically damaged! if a hot wire is frayed and touching the case the unit is physically damaged. pay attention and comprehend what you read before you try to challenge it. oh oh please pay attention. and youre struggling to describe a properly working appliance anyhow! means that i know it isnt damaged. if the appliance isnt damaged it wouldnt have a frayed hot wire touching the which makes it rather less important to fret over. i guess it was simpler for you to attempt. .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote wrong. just say i was wrong and be done with it. you were wrong. its been clearly proven by now that you are wrong with your initial criticism. you simply havent the integrity to own it. ...no surprise. initial criticism nathan appears to take a superficial view of things and fails to ponder the what-ifs. thats been shown. no problem there. example for example years back he put together an extension cord for his welder so he could plug it into a dryer outlet. an obsolete non-grounded type of outlet now and then frowned upon and no longer acceptable according to the building codes. when the potential danger was pointed out to him he strongly rejected the information. true to this day you still are. hey looky dat see what i wrote the potential danger! not the potential the way you parrot the term as if it were some sort of slang. .

From : christopher d thompson

on sat 27 sep 2008 213025 -0700 geyser wrote got a floor jack and its a heavy industrial one. not one that would even pull through gravel without plowing a ditch. got various other jacks too and none of them will fit under a 450sl. cant even see under a 450sl. the bumpers arent designed to be used for lifting. of course i used the mercedes jack. it fits the correct jack points. yes an unstable surface. made sure the jack was firmly planted and wouldnt slip made sure the car wouldnt roll and away we went. not the wrong jack point. whichever it was it was for the wheel i wanted to raise. not what you said earlier. yet you expect us to accept this as a valid point about someone who knew what they were doing getting caught by surprise. accept it or dont makes little difference to me. see theres an assumed level of competence and you apparently didnt have it. and you would have foreseen the car yawing in a way that parked cars just dont move. uh huh. yes especially lifting one entire side of the car by a single jack point. that creates a pivot point. you really should consider what your doing. in 20 years i have yet to drop a car. thats right 20 years of working on cars i have not dropped one. the reason because i understand what goes into lifting a car and the things to consider. well i still submit my disagreement. keep arguing your proving my point quite well. first make a point then well see about proving it or not. i already have and you have proven it for me. you sir do not understand things as well as you claim to. otherwise you would have never dropped the car. now that we agree that you need to consider more things about how to safely lift a vehicle i hope you have learned something with this experience and will use a service jack when available from now on. seriously before you hurt yourself or someone else. -- chris .

From : christopher d thompson

on sun 28 sep 2008 003359 -0700 geyser wrote nathan w. collier wrote i can only consider possibilities that come to mind. coming from you im certain that would be a very short list. - nah it just keeps growing. and ill share it. crissy can pretend that hed have foreseen what happened it doesnt bother me. hell remember it. maybe i just saved his life sometime in the future. youll remember it too. nope i already knew it could happen. ive seen it before. i was in a car that done the same thing when i was very young. but this one was on the side of a highway with a flat. -- chris .

From : nathan w collier

you attempted to describe current flow in a unit that isnt damaged. thats what i said - and youre struggling to describe a properly working appliance anyhow! lol not struggling at all. trying to help you understand it but in your foolishness you cannot see that either. and then i had to tell you a second time that i already said so - and youre struggling to describe a properly working appliance anyhow! means that i know it isnt damaged. i dont know why youre confused about this. you qualified the statement by throwing in frawed wire touching the sheetmetal. that is a damaged unit and you are an idiot. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : nathan w collier

i didnt say it was in your cord. liar. you brought the cord into this discussion to somehow discredit me. after youve been shown that you are wrong you backpeddle. nice try. its in your instructions its in the what-ifs that are going to kill somebody. there are no what ifs for the cord used in the application for which it was intended. you are an idiot. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : nathan w collier

and i guess you still dont know if the posts were fakes made to look like the real thing or genuine pedestrian safety barriers. im betting i know far more about them than you do. but that doesnt stop you from being an ignorant fool. - you just drove away. lol...you are an idiot. - -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : geyser

tom lawrence wrote well... if you dont even have the common sense to not touch the shiny part of the probes when measuring voltage there isnt a lot of hope for you. arrange both probes parallel in one hand so that the tips have the desired spacing and equal reach. put your other hand in your pocket. now aim the probes at their targets stick them into the socket and read the meter. you may have to try several times as the probes squirm in your grip and defy your efforts. like chopsticks. now if its going to be your unlucky day and you sneeze suddenly develop hiccups are startled by a loud sound or see a large spider while doing this you may lose your entire hand. excellent thats why you use one hand. if you use both the current will travel up one arm through your chest down the other arm. and your heart will stop. .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote and i guess you still dont know if the posts were fakes made to look like the real thing or genuine pedestrian safety barriers. im betting i know far more about them than you do. but that doesnt stop you from being an ignorant fool. - what do you know about the posts now what did you know then you just drove away. lol...you are an idiot. - you already admitted it. .

From : geyser

christopher d. thompson wrote on sun 28 sep 2008 003359 -0700 geyser wrote nathan w. collier wrote i can only consider possibilities that come to mind. coming from you im certain that would be a very short list. - nah it just keeps growing. and ill share it. crissy can pretend that hed have foreseen what happened it doesnt bother me. hell remember it. maybe i just saved his life sometime in the future. youll remember it too. nope i already knew it could happen. ive seen it before. i was in a car that done the same thing when i was very young. but this one was on the side of a highway with a flat. well this was in a driveway. now ive seen it happen now we both know it can happen. now other people who havent seen it happen know that it can happen. have you seen your motorcycles kickstand melt into asphalt yet .

From : christopher d thompson

on sun 28 sep 2008 115229 -0700 geyser wrote well this was in a driveway. now ive seen it happen now we both know it can happen. now other people who havent seen it happen know that it can happen. have you seen your motorcycles kickstand melt into asphalt yet yup seen that too. i used to carry a 2 x 4 piece of billet aluminum the stuff from lowes in my fork bag just to throw down under the kickstand if i seen any indication of previous bikes or stuff sinking into the asphalt. -- chris .

From : geyser

christopher d. thompson wrote on sat 27 sep 2008 213025 -0700 geyser wrote got a floor jack and its a heavy industrial one. not one that would even pull through gravel without plowing a ditch. got various other jacks too and none of them will fit under a 450sl. cant even see under a 450sl. the bumpers arent designed to be used for lifting. of course i used the mercedes jack. it fits the correct jack points. yes an unstable surface. made sure the jack was firmly planted and wouldnt slip made sure the car wouldnt roll and away we went. not the wrong jack point. whichever it was it was for the wheel i wanted to raise. not what you said earlier. of course it isnt! thats what i did make a mistake about the single jack point on the cars side was all about. but since there were two youre saying i used the wrong one. how do you know that yet you expect us to accept this as a valid point about someone who knew what they were doing getting caught by surprise. accept it or dont makes little difference to me. see theres an assumed level of competence and you apparently didnt have it. and you would have foreseen the car yawing in a way that parked cars just dont move. uh huh. yes especially lifting one entire side of the car by a single jack point. that creates a pivot point. you really should consider what your doing. in 20 years i have yet to drop a car. thats right 20 years of working on cars i have not dropped one. the reason because i understand what goes into lifting a car and the things to consider. do you understand that the car didnt arc around the jack in an orbit good. then you understand that using four or twenty jacks also creates a pivot point. wisely you would have shoved a floor jack under the car and punched a hole through the floor im sure. well i still submit my disagreement. keep arguing your proving my point quite well. first make a point then well see about proving it or not. i already have and you have proven it for me. you sir do not understand things as well as you claim to. otherwise you would have never dropped the car. 20 years working on cars and nothing ever went wrong because you understood every step of the way what was going to happen next. youve never been injured dont need gloves never bled never used a bandaid. is that pretty accurate christopher now that we agree that you need to consider more things about how to safely lift a vehicle i hope you have learned something with this experience and will use a service jack when available from now on. seriously before you hurt yourself or someone else. i hope you will tear up the underside of a friends mercedes using a service jack and learn a lesson from that experience. do you know what the underside of a 450sl is like lay on the ground with a flashlight and look around under there after you damage it. then next time try out the jack that was made to fit the car. it wont fall because youre not on gravel. if it falls anyway use a service jack next time and punch a hole through the floor. and lifting vehicles is only one of lifes activities. i do other stuff all the time. i cut my hand slicing a bagle once. .

From : christopher d thompson

on sun 28 sep 2008 124706 -0700 geyser wrote christopher d. thompson wrote on sat 27 sep 2008 213025 -0700 geyser wrote snip not what you said earlier. of course it isnt! thats what i did make a mistake about the single jack point on the cars side was all about. but since there were two youre saying i used the wrong one. how do you know that if you did use the correct jacking location why did you feel the need to interject this point into the conversation in the first place snip do you understand that the car didnt arc around the jack in an orbit good. then you understand that using four or twenty jacks also creates a pivot point. wisely you would have shoved a floor jack under the car and punched a hole through the floor im sure. no your foundation for the jack and/or the car failed and allowed one to move causing the other to move and thus the car fell. fair enough now snip 20 years working on cars and nothing ever went wrong because you understood every step of the way what was going to happen next. youve never been injured dont need gloves never bled never used a bandaid. is that pretty accurate christopher never said that what i did say and mean.. when lifting a vehicle you have to be extra aware. your lifting at least half a ton to several tons depending on the 4 wheeled vehicle in question. a slip can seriously injure or kill. period. its nothing to play with. as to your other point yes ive made plenty of mistakes and ive learned from them. some cost me more than others. now that we agree that you need to consider more things about how to safely lift a vehicle i hope you have learned something with this experience and will use a service jack when available from now on. seriously before you hurt yourself or someone else. i hope you will tear up the underside of a friends mercedes using a service jack and learn a lesson from that experience. do you know what the underside of a 450sl is like lay on the ground with a flashlight and look around under there after you damage it. then next time try out the jack that was made to fit the car. it wont fall because youre not on gravel. if it falls anyway use a service jack next time and punch a hole through the floor. tearing the underside of a car will never happen. i look before i place the jack. i would have never wished anything like that on one of your friends. says a lot for your character doesnt it im done with you your snide remarks are uncalled for. and lifting vehicles is only one of lifes activities. i do other stuff all the time. i cut my hand slicing a bagle once. good for you. -- chris .

From : nathan w collier

i didnt requalify your statement to something else you did. you threw in the frayed wire touching sheetmetal meaning a damaged unit. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : geyser

christopher d. thompson wrote on sun 28 sep 2008 124706 -0700 geyser wrote christopher d. thompson wrote on sat 27 sep 2008 213025 -0700 geyser wrote snip not what you said earlier. of course it isnt! thats what i did make a mistake about the single jack point on the cars side was all about. but since there were two youre saying i used the wrong one. how do you know that if you did use the correct jacking location why did you feel the need to interject this point into the conversation in the first place seemed like it might become a big deal at the time. couldnt let you ask what model mercedes and find out yourself that i was wrong. snip do you understand that the car didnt arc around the jack in an orbit good. then you understand that using four or twenty jacks also creates a pivot point. wisely you would have shoved a floor jack under the car and punched a hole through the floor im sure. no your foundation for the jack and/or the car failed and allowed one to move causing the other to move and thus the car fell. fair enough now snip 20 years working on cars and nothing ever went wrong because you understood every step of the way what was going to happen next. youve never been injured dont need gloves never bled never used a bandaid. is that pretty accurate christopher never said that what i did say and mean.. when lifting a vehicle you have to be extra aware. your lifting at least half a ton to several tons depending on the 4 wheeled vehicle in question. a slip can seriously injure or kill. period. its nothing to play with. as to your other point yes ive made plenty of mistakes and ive learned from them. some cost me more than others. now that we agree that you need to consider more things about how to safely lift a vehicle i hope you have learned something with this experience and will use a service jack when available from now on. seriously before you hurt yourself or someone else. i hope you will tear up the underside of a friends mercedes using a service jack and learn a lesson from that experience. do you know what the underside of a 450sl is like lay on the ground with a flashlight and look around under there after you damage it. then next time try out the jack that was made to fit the car. it wont fall because youre not on gravel. if it falls anyway use a service jack next time and punch a hole through the floor. tearing the underside of a car will never happen. i look before i place the jack. i would have never wished anything like that on one of your friends. says a lot for your character doesnt it hah! yes it probably says a lot about both our characters. i have you scrambling back and forth trying one jack and then the other - punch a hole let one fall punch another hole ... like a cartoon mechanic. and youre offended. waaah. toughen up crissy its a joke. im done with you your snide remarks are uncalled for. later on. and lifting vehicles is only one of lifes activities. i do other stuff all the time. i cut my hand slicing a bagle once. good for you. please killfile me now. .

From : nathan w collier

i already told tom that its probably safer than my own dryer this means nothing as your dryer could be a total hazard. fact is there is nothing wrong with my cord. you were wrong with your initial criticism. own it when you want to move forward. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : steveb toquerville zionvistas

btw i got my new 250 round magazine for my glock .40 today. it sure is impressive but it is as big as a pineapple weighs more than a bowling ball when filled and removes all chances of concealability. but if i ever did draw down on someone i could sure scare the bejabbers out of them. of course this would only include prone people as it is almost impossible to hold at arms length for more than fifteen seconds. but for those who like lots of firepower it would be the ideal combination. looks somewhat like an 8 diameter wwii hand grenade. now if i could only find a holster ...................... steve .

From : steveb toquerville zionvistas

i got my new 250 round magazine for my glock .40 today. holy smokes...i didnt know such a beast existed. who makes it -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com some guy in my neighborhood. he can also get silencers and c4. hes a little paranoid but other than that hes mostly okay. unless he doesnt take his meds. steve .

From : napalmheart

napalmheart wrote napalmheart wrote nathan w. collier wrote although this is sure to surprise many of you i am working on warming up to open carry. im not willing to sacrifice my tactical advantage of concealed carry but im trying to warm up to the idea none-the-less. if you are already familiar with our sister site http//concealedcarryforum.com im sure youll find yourself at home on our newest sister site http//opencarryforum.com and i hope to see you there. please share the link and get us off to a good start. new study explains whats up with chickenshit republican gun weenies. http//.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7623256.stm their research published in the journal science indicates that people who are sensitive to fear or threat are likely to support a right wing agenda. those who perceived less danger in a series of images and sounds were more inclined to support liberal policies. they found that subjects who were more easily startled tended to have political views that would be classified as more right wing being more in favour of capital punishment and higher defence spending but opposed to abortion rights. on the other hand you have people who are more supportive of pacifism and who advocate gun control - and there are lots of areas where people who are less sensitive to threat would project those kinds of feelings into the political arena. typical anti-gun pussy garbage rhetoric. explains why violent crime is soaring in the uk and oz. it says nothing at all about crime rates. criminals arent carrying guns because they feel frightened and paranoid out in the world they have some very different reasons. ill discuss that with you at length ken but i might call you a dolt again and youd be crushed. calling me names doesnt crush me particularily not by someone on usenet. especially by someone who supports positions that are ridiculous and dont fit into the real world. the study does explain why you smuggle your gun into places where guns are prohibited. it explains why punkin always keeps his gun within reach next to the bed even while hes sitting at his computer desk. it explains why nathan wont go out into the world without his concealed tactical advantage. please show me where i have smuggled my gun into places where guns are prohibited. thanks you saved me the trouble. if you are referring to this post made on 7/31/08 at 710 p.m. thats the one yep. i wonder how many places ive gone into while legally armed and concealed where the owner/manager believed the delusion that their prohibition of firearms made their business any safer i was referring to places that might not want customers to carry concealed on their might not the concrete their prohibition of firearms is gone and its going to be wishy-washy might not want now ok change it to their prohibition of firearms if you like. no requirement for that to be posted in my state. wouldnt know unless they tell me. if i am concealing the firearms correctly they wouldnt know that i am carrying. premises prohibit but that do not post a sign saying so not that i carried in places where i knew such rules existed. you were gloating about getting away with it. then you were cheered on with the atta boy ken! reply from the erratic one in oregon. hardly. i was simply pondering how many establishments i may have carried into where the owner didnt want it but didnt make that information public. you seem to have problems of perception and project your own personality traits onto the statements of others. as a responsible adult i generally dont gloat. i leave that to the infantile liberals. in my statemichigan the arent required to do so. i see you convieniently ignored this. stick to areas where you have a least a grain of knowledge. you dont appear to have much knowledge of concealed carry laws and that they differ from state to state. me thinketh that thou does exhibit doltishness far more than i. if you want to have a serious discussion about being armed vs. not being armed and which is preferable thats fine but im not a slave to answering usenet postings. when i get to it is when i get to it. did i call you a dolt again i was killfiled by you last time i did that. you announced so as a courtesy to me. did i killfile you before about the only one ive killfiled here is beryl. if thats you ill gladly do it again. beryl isnt worth the electrons it takes to send a post. ken .

From : christopher d thompson

on sun 28 sep 2008 204143 -0700 geyser wrote hah! yes it probably says a lot about both our characters. i have you scrambling back and forth trying one jack and then the other - punch a hole let one fall punch another hole ... like a cartoon mechanic. and youre offended. waaah. toughen up crissy its a joke. only in your dreams. keep up your fantasy that everyone leaps before they look there punkin. im done with you your snide remarks are uncalled for. later on. and lifting vehicles is only one of lifes activities. i do other stuff all the time. i cut my hand slicing a bagle once. good for you. please killfile me now. no such luck! but do look out for those killer bagels. later on bagel boy -- chris .

From : christopher d thompson

on sun 28 sep 2008 204143 -0700 geyser wrote hah! yes it probably says a lot about both our characters. i have you scrambling back and forth trying one jack and then the other - punch a hole let one fall punch another hole ... like a cartoon mechanic. and youre offended. waaah. toughen up crissy its a joke. only in your dreams. keep up your fantasy that everyone leaps before they look there punkin. im done with you your snide remarks are uncalled for. later on. and lifting vehicles is only one of lifes activities. i do other stuff all the time. i cut my hand slicing a bagle once. good for you. please killfile me now. no such luck! but do look out for those killer bagels. later on bagel boy -- chris .

From : christopher d thompson

on mon 29 sep 2008 015152 -0400 napalmheart wrote did i killfile you before about the only one ive killfiled here is beryl. if thats you ill gladly do it again. beryl isnt worth the electrons it takes to send a post. ken yup that is without a doubt beryl. -- chris .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote what do you know about the posts now what did you know then i feel quite positive that i know far more about the posts than you pretend to. im positive that ive now thought more about those posts than you have and i wasnt even involved in the accident. .

From : napalmheart

tom lawrence wrote and lightning may strike any of us. i felt a shock through a metal umbrella last spring while i was hearing thunder miles away. but i still dont dress in a faraday cage. no because that would be impractical. doesnt have to be. some powerline workers wear them. do you feel the same contempt for those who install lightning protection on their homes and outbuildings same one-in-a-million chance right people who want lightning protection can have it whenever they want. that doesnt affect me. youre straying. the study is not about potential consequences of encountering bad guys with guns or the odds of that occurring. it only addresses the psychology of those who *feel* a need to carry a gun. is there a similar study on those who *feel* the need to wear a seatbelt while operating a motor vehicle how about those who *feel* the need to wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle why dont you look and see think thered be a political correlation might be but i doubt it. a broad correlation was found between feelings of fear and right wing agendas and between feelings of calm and liberal agendas. you say fear and calm... i say awareness and blissful ignorance. and the scientists say the degree of fear they were experiencing while exposed to ... pictures of a frightened man with a large spider on his face and an open wound with maggots in it. the subjects were also startled with loud noises on occasion. i moved a large tarantula about one hundred feet further away from the house a few weeks ago. it was evicted from inside the house just days earlier and i found him wandering back. you sweat and blink rapidly when you see a spider tom if you see a flaw in the study point it out. its generated by liberal anti-gun weenies that come from a country that believes that criminals have more rights than victims. .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote i didnt requalify your statement to something else you did. you threw in the frayed wire touching sheetmetal meaning a damaged unit. then describe how i threw that frayed wire in and mixed it with your babble about an undamaged appliance immediately after saying that your babble was about an undamaged appliance. you wont cant youll ignore what im telling you and repeat yourself instead. i know what i wrote i wrote it. and i say i started a new example of ground actually being useful and doing something. like you were supposed to do. .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote i already told tom that its probably safer than my own dryer this means nothing as your dryer could be a total hazard. fact is there is nothing wrong with my cord. you were wrong with your initial criticism. own it when you want to move forward. my dryer is 100% safe. its broken unplugged and the breaker is turned off. all at the same time. so lets see ill have to force you along or youre not going to do anything. i know ill pretend that my initial criticism was about the cord itself and that i was wrong. now move forward. dont whine about me pretending maybe im sincere and dont really know what pretend even means. we can now see if youre able to move anywhere with your explanation like you said or if youre looking for a graceful exit. .

From : geyser

steveb wrote btw i got my new 250 round magazine for my glock .40 today. it sure is impressive but it is as big as a pineapple weighs more than a bowling ball when filled and removes all chances of concealability. but if i ever did draw down on someone i could sure scare the bejabbers out of them. of course this would only include prone people as it is almost impossible to hold at arms length for more than fifteen seconds. it probably will keep your hand steady. .

From : geyser

napalmheart wrote ... if you see a flaw in the study point it out. its generated by liberal anti-gun weenies that come from a country that believes that criminals have more rights than victims. no thats not it. im sure because i found one and the flaw itself actually tells you thats not it. the researchers say there is no political relevance to their research obviously theres political relevance. thats what the whole experiment was designed around. in the study conducted in nebraska 46 volunteers were first asked about their political views on issues they went overboard trying to lessen the impact on panicky and emotional conservative gun weenies. http//.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7623256.stm .

From : christopher d thompson

+-------------------+ .//. | please do not | .//. | feed the trolls | =. - - .= | | = 9 9 /= | thank you | | management | /-vvv- +-------------------+ / | | @@@ / /|| | | @@@ /// /^ @x@@x@ | | |/ ww ww ||||/ | | | // ||/ | | | jgs y ///////////////////////////////// ====================================================================== -- chris .

From : geyser

napalmheart wrote napalmheart wrote napalmheart wrote nathan w. collier wrote although this is sure to surprise many of you i am working on warming up to open carry. im not willing to sacrifice my tactical advantage of concealed carry but im trying to warm up to the idea none-the-less. if you are already familiar with our sister site http//concealedcarryforum.com im sure youll find yourself at home on our newest sister site http//opencarryforum.com and i hope to see you there. please share the link and get us off to a good start. new study explains whats up with chickenshit republican gun weenies. http//.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7623256.stm their research published in the journal science indicates that people who are sensitive to fear or threat are likely to support a right wing agenda. those who perceived less danger in a series of images and sounds were more inclined to support liberal policies. they found that subjects who were more easily startled tended to have political views that would be classified as more right wing being more in favour of capital punishment and higher defence spending but opposed to abortion rights. on the other hand you have people who are more supportive of pacifism and who advocate gun control - and there are lots of areas where people who are less sensitive to threat would project those kinds of feelings into the political arena. typical anti-gun pussy garbage rhetoric. explains why violent crime is soaring in the uk and oz. it says nothing at all about crime rates. criminals arent carrying guns because they feel frightened and paranoid out in the world they have some very different reasons. ill discuss that with you at length ken but i might call you a dolt again and youd be crushed. calling me names doesnt crush me particularily not by someone on usenet. especially by someone who supports positions that are ridiculous and dont fit into the real world. the study does explain why you smuggle your gun into places where guns are prohibited. it explains why punkin always keeps his gun within reach next to the bed even while hes sitting at his computer desk. it explains why nathan wont go out into the world without his concealed tactical advantage. please show me where i have smuggled my gun into places where guns are prohibited. thanks you saved me the trouble. if you are referring to this post made on 7/31/08 at 710 p.m. thats the one yep. i wonder how many places ive gone into while legally armed and concealed where the owner/manager believed the delusion that their prohibition of firearms made their business any safer i was referring to places that might not want customers to carry concealed on their might not the concrete their prohibition of firearms is gone and its going to be wishy-washy might not want now ok change it to their prohibition of firearms if you like. no requirement for that to be posted in my state. wouldnt know unless they tell me. if i am concealing the firearms correctly they wouldnt know that i am carrying. premises prohibit but that do not post a sign saying so not that i carried in places where i knew such rules existed. you were gloating about getting away with it. then you were cheered on with the atta boy ken! reply from the erratic one in oregon. hardly. i was simply pondering how many establishments i may have carried into where the owner didnt want it but didnt make that information public. if they never expressed it then they wouldnt have been delusional about anything. try again. you seem to have problems of perception and project your own personality traits onto the statements of others. as a responsible adult i generally dont gloat. i leave that to the infantile liberals. such sloppy writing here. i take things to literally mean what they say and then the writer didnt write what he meant to say. like you wrote prohibit and now you really mean maybe they dont want but they dont tell anybody blah blah... in my statemichigan the arent required to do so. so explain why they were delusional about thinking theres no guns in the place. maybe youre trying to say that maybe they didnt want guns and maybe they were also under the delusion that everyone would just know that without being told. i see you convieniently ignored this. stick to areas where you have a least a grain of knowledge. you said it was prohibited so you had to find that out somewhere. if michigan doesnt require that the prohibition be made public then shit what are you trying to say youre all mind-readers in your state you dont appear to have much knowledge of concealed carry laws and that they differ from state to state. not much knowledge thats correct. it doesnt change anything about what you wrote. you are incomprehensible. me thinketh that thou does exhibit doltishness far more than i. if you want to have a

From : geyser

geyser wrote nathan w. collier wrote i didnt requalify your statement to something else you did. you threw in the frayed wire touching sheetmetal meaning a damaged unit. then describe how i threw that frayed wire in and mixed it with your babble about an undamaged appliance immediately after saying that your babble was about an undamaged appliance. you wont cant youll ignore what im telling you and repeat yourself instead. i know what i wrote i wrote it. and i say i started a new example of ground actually being useful and doing something. like you were supposed to do. hey nathan i bet you went and measured a bunch of sockets between their neutrals and grounds huh. i got 0.9 volts here in the socket. what did you get .

From : steveb toquerville zionvistas

steveb wrote btw i got my new 250 round magazine for my glock .40 today. it sure is impressive but it is as big as a pineapple weighs more than a bowling ball when filled and removes all chances of concealability. but if i ever did draw down on someone i could sure scare the bejabbers out of them. of course this would only include prone people as it is almost impossible to hold at arms length for more than fifteen seconds. it probably will keep your hand steady. i tried it today. whats so hard about scoring a 360 on qualifying i got 480. steve ;- .

From : napalmheart

napalmheart wrote napalmheart wrote napalmheart wrote hardly. i was simply pondering how many establishments i may have carried into where the owner didnt want it but didnt make that information public. if they never expressed it then they wouldnt have been delusional about anything. try again. the only delusional person posting here is the one to whom im replying. you seem to have problems of perception and project your own personality traits onto the statements of others. as a responsible adult i generally dont gloat. i leave that to the infantile liberals. such sloppy writing here. i take things to literally mean what they say and then the writer didnt write what he meant to say. like you wrote prohibit and now you really mean maybe they dont want but they dont tell anybody blah blah... if you cant attack the idea attack the grammer. in my statemichigan the arent required to do so. so explain why they were delusional about thinking theres no guns in the place. maybe youre trying to say that maybe they didnt want guns and maybe they were also under the delusion that everyone would just know that without being told. i see you convieniently ignored this. stick to areas where you have a least a grain of knowledge. you said it was prohibited so you had to find that out somewhere. if michigan doesnt require that the prohibition be made public then shit what are you trying to say youre all mind-readers in your state im stating what the law is in michigan as it is written and as it has been interpreted at this point in time. you dont appear to have much knowledge of concealed carry laws and that they differ from state to state. not much knowledge thats correct. it doesnt change anything about what you wrote. you are incomprehensible. only to those who have problems onf comprehension. me thinketh that thou does exhibit doltishness far more than i. if you want to have a serious discussion about being armed vs. not being armed and which is preferable thats fine but im not a slave to answering usenet postings. when i get to it is when i get to it. did i call you a dolt again i was killfiled by you last time i did that. you announced so as a courtesy to me. did i killfile you before about the only one ive killfiled here is beryl. if thats you ill gladly do it again. beryl isnt worth the electrons it takes to send a post. its me again heartburn. bye-bye bitch. .

From : miles

now nobody whine about me and tbone on our discussions!! this one beats em all!! lol .

From : nathan w collier

then describe how i threw that frayed wire in lol..im not about to waste my time explaining it again because you were too goddamn stupid to grasp it the first time through. keep up or shut up. - -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : nathan w collier

im positive that ive now thought more about those posts than you have further evidence of how much of an idiot you are. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : geyser

napalmheart wrote napalmheart wrote napalmheart wrote napalmheart wrote hardly. i was simply pondering how many establishments i may have carried into where the owner didnt want it but didnt make that information public. if they never expressed it then they wouldnt have been delusional about anything. try again. the only delusional person posting here is the one to whom im replying. you might be right. or maybe youre delusional. theres no way you can tell. you seem to have problems of perception and project your own personality traits onto the statements of others. as a responsible adult i generally dont gloat. i leave that to the infantile liberals. such sloppy writing here. i take things to literally mean what they say and then the writer didnt write what he meant to say. like you wrote prohibit and now you really mean maybe they dont want but they dont tell anybody blah blah... if you cant attack the idea attack the grammer. that wasnt it. your idea is a moving target it cant be identified. in my statemichigan the arent required to do so. so explain why they were delusional about thinking theres no guns in the place. maybe youre trying to say that maybe they didnt want guns and maybe they were also under the delusion that everyone would just know that without being told. i see you convieniently ignored this. stick to areas where you have a least a grain of knowledge. you said it was prohibited so you had to find that out somewhere. if michigan doesnt require that the prohibition be made public then shit what are you trying to say youre all mind-readers in your state im stating what the law is in michigan as it is written and as it has been interpreted at this point in time. ok. the language makes no sense but it doesnt need to in michigan. its the same problem with your posts too as they are written and as theyre interpreted. the michigan law just doesnt keep changing its mind. you dont appear to have much knowledge of concealed carry laws and that they differ from state to state. not much knowledge thats correct. it doesnt change anything about what you wrote. you are incomprehensible. only to those who have problems onf comprehension. no really i dont have many problems comprehending. this isnt about comprehension but... i had two journalism instructors both well skilled at their craft. they worked as a team. the older of them actually wrote his own style guide for journalism students which was available through the campus bookstore alongside the usual required overpriced semesterly obsoleted texts. i took my style guide over to the younger instructor and pointed to the glaring error in the very first sentence. one word assist chosen to add a bit of flair wrecked the grammar. he could have just said help there or chosen different words to fit around assist but he blew it. this guide was written to assist the student learn... me thinketh that thou does exhibit doltishness far more than i. if you want to have a serious discussion about being armed vs. not being armed and which is preferable thats fine but im not a slave to answering usenet postings. when i get to it is when i get to it. did i call you a dolt again i was killfiled by you last time i did that. you announced so as a courtesy to me. did i killfile you before about the only one ive killfiled here is beryl. if thats you ill gladly do it again. beryl isnt worth the electrons it takes to send a post. its me again heartburn. bye-bye bitch. bye sweetheart. .

From : nathan w collier

ill have to force you along lol...now that is funny. - we can now see if youre able to move anywhere with your explanation what would you like explained and what would it prove seriously as you have shown us even if i didnt know anything about it i could plug it into a search engine and give you any amount of technical info you could want. you dont want anything certainly not to learn. youre trolling for the sake of trolling which is why you opened your fat mouth to start with. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : nathan w collier

+-------------------+ .//. | please do not | .//. | feed the trolls | =. - - .= | | = 9 9 /= | thank you | | management | /-vvv- +-------------------+ / | | @@@ / /|| | | @@@ /// /^ @x@@x@ | | |/ ww ww ||||/ | | | // ||/ | | | jgs y ///////////////////////////////// ====================================================================== if he really wanted to learn i would be more than happy to explain it to him but the way he came on ill informed accusing my cord of being dangerous and now apparently knowing more about the poles i hit than i do...well he is simply trolling and simlpy not worth the effort of a serious response. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : geyser

steveb wrote steveb wrote btw i got my new 250 round magazine for my glock .40 today. it sure is impressive but it is as big as a pineapple weighs more than a bowling ball when filled and removes all chances of concealability. but if i ever did draw down on someone i could sure scare the bejabbers out of them. of course this would only include prone people as it is almost impossible to hold at arms length for more than fifteen seconds. it probably will keep your hand steady. i tried it today. whats so hard about scoring a 360 on qualifying i got 480. steve ;- i dont even want to know what it means. my sister drank antifreeze last night and shes in a coma. .

From : steveb toquerville zionvistas

steveb wrote steveb wrote btw i got my new 250 round magazine for my glock .40 today. it sure is impressive but it is as big as a pineapple weighs more than a bowling ball when filled and removes all chances of concealability. but if i ever did draw down on someone i could sure scare the bejabbers out of them. of course this would only include prone people as it is almost impossible to hold at arms length for more than fifteen seconds. it probably will keep your hand steady. i tried it today. whats so hard about scoring a 360 on qualifying i got 480. steve ;- i dont even want to know what it means. my sister drank antifreeze last night and shes in a coma. when you qualify with a handgun you have to get 70% of a 360. bullseye on a human size target is 10 points and on down from there. deduct if you dont cut paper. you get 36 shots with a semi auto or 6 hole wheel gun and 30 with a 5 hole wheel gun. therefore shooting 480 points with 250 rounds is rather dismal as the highest possible would be 2500. but then all you folks who know concealed carry stuff know this right steve ;- .

From : napalmheart

steveb wrote steveb wrote btw i got my new 250 round magazine for my glock .40 today. it sure is impressive but it is as big as a pineapple weighs more than a bowling ball when filled and removes all chances of concealability. but if i ever did draw down on someone i could sure scare the bejabbers out of them. of course this would only include prone people as it is almost impossible to hold at arms length for more than fifteen seconds. it probably will keep your hand steady. i tried it today. whats so hard about scoring a 360 on qualifying i got 480. steve ;- i dont even want to know what it means. my sister drank antifreeze last night and shes in a coma. when you qualify with a handgun you have to get 70% of a 360. bullseye on a human size target is 10 points and on down from there. deduct if you dont cut paper. you get 36 shots with a semi auto or 6 hole wheel gun and 30 with a 5 hole wheel gun. therefore shooting 480 points with 250 rounds is rather dismal as the highest possible would be 2500. but then all you folks who know concealed carry stuff know this right steve ;- just because things are done in a particular way in your state doesnt mean theyre done that way anywhere else. the course i attended didnt require any specific score. ken .

From : tom lawrence

thanks for the correction tom. 21 feet 7 yards is correct. whew i was starting to feel really inadequate there for a bit! .

From : napalmheart

napalmheart olsonfamnospam@iserv.net wrote just because things are done in a particular way in your state doesnt mean theyre done that way anywhere else. the course i attended didnt require any specific score. ken thats just a little scary. steve it was based more on gun safety and the legal aspects. the targets werent even scored. at 21 yards my groups could have easily been covered with a half-dollar and i was shooting fast. ken .

From : napalmheart

steveb toquerville@zionvistas wrote in napalmheart olsonfamnospam@iserv.net wrote just because things are done in a particular way in your state doesnt mean theyre done that way anywhere else. the course i attended didnt require any specific score. ken thats just a little scary. steve my vision is 20-400 somebody point me toward the wall with the targets. uncorrected my vision is 20-400. correct to 20-20. ken .

From : steveb toquerville zionvistas

napalmheart olsonfamnospam@iserv.net wrote just because things are done in a particular way in your state doesnt mean theyre done that way anywhere else. the course i attended didnt require any specific score. ken thats just a little scary. steve it was based more on gun safety and the legal aspects. the targets werent even scored. at 21 yards my groups could have easily been covered with a half-dollar and i was shooting fast. ken what i find interesting is the instructors. most can recognize if someone is capable of handling a gun safely and shooting it with adequate accuracy. then there are the ones who will certify anyone who gives them the fee. i live in utah and this year there have been some changes to the law. i need to research them and see what they are. i do hope one or more of them has to do with the instructors who certify people who have no business of owning or handling a gun. in my last course 5th now the instructor stopped his lecture and plainly told one man to leave when he was fiddling with his gun while the instructor was talking. that was in nevada and the instructor was a po. steve .

From : napalmheart

tom lawrence tlawrence5@earthlink.not wrote in message it was based more on gun safety and the legal aspects. the targets werent even scored. at 21 yards my groups could have easily been covered with a half-dollar and i was shooting fast. ummm... i thnk you mean 21 feet. a 1 group at 21 yards rapid-fire is beyond even most national champions. thanks for the correction tom. 21 feet 7 yards is correct. ken .

From : miles

napalmheart wrote tom lawrence tlawrence5@earthlink.not wrote in message it was based more on gun safety and the legal aspects. the targets werent even scored. at 21 yards my groups could have easily been covered with a half-dollar and i was shooting fast. ummm... i thnk you mean 21 feet. a 1 group at 21 yards rapid-fire is beyond even most national champions. thanks for the correction tom. 21 feet 7 yards is correct. i dont shoot much these days but remember as a kid going to a target range. we shot at 1 10 ring targets at 50 feet. these were simple single shot bolt action 22 rifles with usually a bent poorly aligned or non-existent sight. .

From : napalmheart

napalmheart olsonfamnospam@iserv.net wrote in message steveb toquerville@zionvistas wrote in message napalmheart olsonfamnospam@iserv.net wrote just because things are done in a particular way in your state doesnt mean theyre done that way anywhere else. the course i attended didnt require any specific score. ken thats just a little scary. steve it was based more on gun safety and the legal aspects. the targets werent even scored. at 21 feet my groups could have easily been covered with a half-dollar and i was shooting fast. ken what i find interesting is the instructors. most can recognize if someone is capable of handling a gun safely and shooting it with adequate accuracy. then there are the ones who will certify anyone who gives them the fee. i live in utah and this year there have been some changes to the law. i need to research them and see what they are. i do hope one or more of them has to do with the instructors who certify people who have no business of owning or handling a gun. in my last course 5th now the instructor stopped his lecture and plainly told one man to leave when he was fiddling with his gun while the instructor was talking. that was in nevada and the instructor was a po. steve the instructor i had here wouldnt have tolerated that stuff either. safety is paramount. i fixed my distance above to thanks to tom for the assist. i wouldnt disagree with the idea of an accuracy standard. i was just stating things as they are here mi now. our laws are changing here too. so far for the good. even with a democrat governor and state house. ken .

From : steveb toquerville zionvistas

it was based more on gun safety and the legal aspects. the targets werent even scored. at 21 yards my groups could have easily been covered with a half-dollar and i was shooting fast. ummm... i thnk you mean 21 feet. a 1 group at 21 yards rapid-fire is beyond even most national champions. thanks for the correction tom. 21 feet 7 yards is correct. ken - damn. another hero bites the dust. steve .

From : steveb toquerville zionvistas

thanks for the correction tom. 21 feet 7 yards is correct. whew i was starting to feel really inadequate there for a bit! thank god for shotguns. but not really. i had a squirrel invading the feeder today. went and got my 1100. five shots and the little bugger is safe at home somewhere. blew off the brace to a small sapling in the yard but no other major damage. can you get buck fever if it is a squirrel steve .

From : napalmheart

napalmheart olsonfamnospam@iserv.net wrote in message tom lawrence tlawrence5@earthlink.not wrote in message it was based more on gun safety and the legal aspects. the targets werent even scored. at 21 yards my groups could have easily been covered with a half-dollar and i was shooting fast. ummm... i thnk you mean 21 feet. a 1 group at 21 yards rapid-fire is beyond even most national champions. thanks for the correction tom. 21 feet 7 yards is correct. ken - damn. another hero bites the dust. steve back when my eyes worked better i could really shoot! ;+ ken .

From : steveb toquerville zionvistas

it was based more on gun safety and the legal aspects. the targets werent even scored. at 21 yards my groups could have easily been covered with a half-dollar and i was shooting fast. ummm... i thnk you mean 21 feet. a 1 group at 21 yards rapid-fire is beyond even most national champions. thanks for the correction tom. 21 feet 7 yards is correct. ken - damn. another hero bites the dust. steve back when my eyes worked better i could really shoot! ;+ ken you sound like me. the older we get the better we were. steve .

From : napalmheart

nunya wrote no actually i was trusting my well being to the fact that i knew i was faster and that in the end i would have my day in court. not a good scenario i admit but sometimes a man has to push a bad position or compromise his principles. better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. i guess this paragraph sums in up very well. you really really need to do some study on this subject not what you read in various forums but your state laws. with your mindset you need to know what is gonna happen when you put your principles into action. and this better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. stuff talk to an attorney about what happens after you pull the trigger. your life will change in ways that you cannot or have not imagined. it doesnt matter whether you are inside the law or not you just entered a whole new life. after having a ccw for numerous years ive learned the grey matter or whats left of it thats between the ears is the best defence there is. cowboy bob stays on the tv set. denny good points made here. fits in well with the training ive had here in mi. ken .

From : rm v2 0

/snip soooo... if i have to ask you to leave my place because youre carrying a gun youre going to quietly leave. right you may legally ask someone to leave your place for no reason so long as you havent opened your place for business to the public. once your place is a business open to the public you cant exclude someone because of their race sex whether they are legally carrying a firearm if they are pregnant under 5 feet tall etcetera. do do so could open you to civil and/or criminal action. of course the penalty if any for illegally excluding someone from your place of business will vary with the political makeup of the judiciary overseeing the case. you can refuse for sex there are male/female only businesses. pregnancy is not protected height is not protected etc. .

From : tom lawrence

your place is a business open to the public you cant exclude someone because of their race sex whether they are legally carrying a firearm if they are pregnant under 5 feet tall etcetera. wrong. depending on the state one is either immediately guilty of trespassing is a business has a posted no firearms sign as in texas or one is guilty of trespassing if asked by management to leave and they refuse as in pennsylvania. carrying a firearm isnt a protected class as is race sex etc. do do so could open you to civil and/or criminal action. look on any of the open carry even concealed carry sites and look at all the posts of was asked to leave insert business here. no ones ever filed a lawsuit no ones ever pressed charges though those who either argued or refused the order to leave were sometimes charged. if you disagree show me one case of a business being either sued or charged because they excluded a person carrying a firearm. while i hope for the day when a no firearms sign draws the same reaction as a whites only sign i fear that day is quite a ways away. .

From : nathan w collier

i love stalkers. lol...now thats just pathetic. are you still pissed off because jeep made you quit using their trademark illegally lol...even more pathetic. pathetic ramblings from a pathetic person. ....roll in your misery. - -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : steveb toquerville zionvistas

dont need any help on that one. nope...youre in need of help on a much deeper level....but feel free to sink yourself. - -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com i love stalkers. but youre the variety of a second grader who idolizes a teenager. are you still pissed off because jeep made you quit using their trademark illegally youre an adult. cope. get over it. steve hehe .

From : nathan w collier

dont need any help on that one. nope...youre in need of help on a much deeper level....but feel free to sink yourself. - -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : nathan w collier

since you know everything there is to know about everything i see no further need to discuss the issue with you. lol....had i recognized you as the twit from before i wouldnt have bothered trying to help you. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : steveb toquerville zionvistas

since you know everything there is to know about everything i see no further need to discuss the issue with you. lol....had i recognized you as the twit from before i wouldnt have bothered trying to help you. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com havent changed a bit have you nathan fyi licensed driver certified welder concealed weapon permitee and dodge truck owner are terms that arent worth as much as the paper theyre written on since the paper can be assigned a monetary value however small. these designations are as easy to come by as paying some bucks and walking out with the paper. they have no reflection of the holder of that designation. they do not denote skill talent experience discernment judgement maturity or common sense. and thank you for illustrating that point. trying to help me do what understand that you know no other viewpoint or opinion different than your own that you consider yourself superior in every respect that you possess certifications and documents that are as meaningful as the one given the straw man in the wizard of oz dont need any help on that one. steve .

From : geyser

tom lawrence wrote and lightning may strike any of us. i felt a shock through a metal umbrella last spring while i was hearing thunder miles away. but i still dont dress in a faraday cage. no because that would be impractical. doesnt have to be. some powerline workers wear them. do you feel the same contempt for those who install lightning protection on their homes and outbuildings same one-in-a-million chance right people who want lightning protection can have it whenever they want. that doesnt affect me. youre straying. the study is not about potential consequences of encountering bad guys with guns or the odds of that occurring. it only addresses the psychology of those who *feel* a need to carry a gun. is there a similar study on those who *feel* the need to wear a seatbelt while operating a motor vehicle how about those who *feel* the need to wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle why dont you look and see think thered be a political correlation might be but i doubt it. a broad correlation was found between feelings of fear and right wing agendas and between feelings of calm and liberal agendas. you say fear and calm... i say awareness and blissful ignorance. and the scientists say the degree of fear they were experiencing while exposed to ... pictures of a frightened man with a large spider on his face and an open wound with maggots in it. the subjects were also startled with loud noises on occasion. i moved a large tarantula about one hundred feet further away from the house a few weeks ago. it was evicted from inside the house just days earlier and i found him wandering back. you sweat and blink rapidly when you see a spider tom if you see a flaw in the study point it out. .

From : steveb toquerville zionvistas

you have a lot less grief from any leo you run into so long as you carry within the law why would you fear grief from le i dang sure wouldnt carry a lesser defense because i was worried about what some leo thought about my actions that are within the law. say what you will about it compared to a gun there is nothing to say as it simply does not compare to a gun. it is a pretty good deterrent against a lucid mentally stable bad guy who isnt committed to harming you. i had two guys run off once when i pulled it irrelevant to what you should expect. i feel secure with my keltec 3at although i had an instructor razz me about it. not gonna razz you about it but i strongly encourage you to study the ballistics of the .380 to understand why he would razz you about it. in fact read http//concealedcarryforum.com/forum/topic.asptopicid=4121 -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com since you know everything there is to know about everything i see no further need to discuss the issue with you. steve .

From : tom lawrence

and lightning may strike any of us. i felt a shock through a metal umbrella last spring while i was hearing thunder miles away. but i still dont dress in a faraday cage. no because that would be impractical. do you feel the same contempt for those who install lightning protection on their homes and outbuildings same one-in-a-million chance right youre straying. the study is not about potential consequences of encountering bad guys with guns or the odds of that occurring. it only addresses the psychology of those who *feel* a need to carry a gun. is there a similar study on those who *feel* the need to wear a seatbelt while operating a motor vehicle how about those who *feel* the need to wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle a broad correlation was found between feelings of fear and right wing agendas and between feelings of calm and liberal agendas. you say fear and calm... i say awareness and blissful ignorance. .

From : nathan w collier

you have a lot less grief from any leo you run into so long as you carry within the law why would you fear grief from le i dang sure wouldnt carry a lesser defense because i was worried about what some leo thought about my actions that are within the law. say what you will about it compared to a gun there is nothing to say as it simply does not compare to a gun. it is a pretty good deterrent against a lucid mentally stable bad guy who isnt committed to harming you. i had two guys run off once when i pulled it irrelevant to what you should expect. i feel secure with my keltec 3at although i had an instructor razz me about it. not gonna razz you about it but i strongly encourage you to study the ballistics of the .380 to understand why he would razz you about it. in fact read http//concealedcarryforum.com/forum/topic.asptopicid=4121 -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : geyser

christopher d. thompson wrote on sat 20 sep 2008 203133 -0700 geyser wrote typical anti-gun pussy garbage rhetoric. explains why violent crime is soaring in the uk and oz. it says nothing at all about crime rates. criminals arent carrying guns because they feel frightened and paranoid out in the world they have some very different reasons. ill discuss that with you at length ken but i might call you a dolt again and youd be crushed. yes but the fact remains the bad guys have weapons and we as citizens have the right to defend ourselves against those who mean to do harm. gun control only removes the most effective tools from those who follow the law leaving them in the hands of criminals. and with no armed threat to consider they continue to do what they want without regard to the law or human life. the study does explain why you smuggle your gun into places where guns are prohibited. it explains why punkin always keeps his gun within reach next to the bed even while hes sitting at his computer desk. it explains why nathan wont go out into the world without his concealed tactical advantage. stop and think for a min like we have. bad things happen all the time and lightning may strike any of us. i felt a shock through a metal umbrella last spring while i was hearing thunder miles away. but i still dont dress in a faraday cage. here there anywhere. you mean to tell me that if someone comes up and sticks a weapon in your face you actually think you better off unarmed and unable to defend yourself. remember seconds count in this situation and the cops are only minutes away. ah but i know im waisting valuable band width trying to reason with you and inconveniencing a bunch of electrons for no practical reason! youre straying. the study is not about potential consequences of encountering bad guys with guns or the odds of that occurring. it only addresses the psychology of those who *feel* a need to carry a gun. a broad correlation was found between feelings of fear and right wing agendas and between feelings of calm and liberal agendas. more specifically people who feel more threatened are more easily startled and exhibit more emotional reactions are those who elect to carry weapons. if you want to talk about what may happen next then once again punkin comes to mind. if hes startled by a strange sound in the middle of the night bullets will fly. then hell turn on the light to see what he shot - maybe its the dog maybe his son. the irony guns would be far safer in the hands of gun control advocates who dont want them. .

From : napalmheart

nathan w. collier wrote although this is sure to surprise many of you i am working on warming up to open carry. im not willing to sacrifice my tactical advantage of concealed carry but im trying to warm up to the idea none-the-less. if you are already familiar with our sister site http//concealedcarryforum.com im sure youll find yourself at home on our newest sister site http//opencarryforum.com and i hope to see you there. please share the link and get us off to a good start. new study explains whats up with chickenshit republican gun weenies. http//.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7623256.stm their research published in the journal science indicates that people who are sensitive to fear or threat are likely to support a right wing agenda. those who perceived less danger in a series of images and sounds were more inclined to support liberal policies. they found that subjects who were more easily startled tended to have political views that would be classified as more right wing being more in favour of capital punishment and higher defence spending but opposed to abortion rights. on the other hand you have people who are more supportive of pacifism and who advocate gun control - and there are lots of areas where people who are less sensitive to threat would project those kinds of feelings into the political arena. typical anti-gun pussy garbage rhetoric. explains why violent crime is soaring in the uk and oz. .

From : steveb toquerville zionvistas

on sat 20 sep 2008 203133 -0700 geyser wrote typical anti-gun pussy garbage rhetoric. explains why violent crime is soaring in the uk and oz. it says nothing at all about crime rates. criminals arent carrying guns because they feel frightened and paranoid out in the world they have some very different reasons. ill discuss that with you at length ken but i might call you a dolt again and youd be crushed. yes but the fact remains the bad guys have weapons and we as citizens have the right to defend ourselves against those who mean to do harm. gun control only removes the most effective tools from those who follow the law leaving them in the hands of criminals. and with no armed threat to consider they continue to do what they want without regard to the law or human life. the study does explain why you smuggle your gun into places where guns are prohibited. it explains why punkin always keeps his gun within reach next to the bed even while hes sitting at his computer desk. it explains why nathan wont go out into the world without his concealed tactical advantage. stop and think for a min like we have. bad things happen all the time here there anywhere. you mean to tell me that if someone comes up and sticks a weapon in your face you actually think you better off unarmed and unable to defend yourself. remember seconds count in this situation and the cops are only minutes away. ah but i know im waisting valuable band width trying to reason with you and inconveniencing a bunch of electrons for no practical reason! -- chris i am permitted in utah nevada and florida. i wont be doing that again as i dont travel as much. i have carried a lot in the past and currently do in areas and situations that are less than normal. what i have done is carry pepper spray more of the time. you have a lot less grief from any leo you run into and most places have lax regulations or none at all regarding it. say what you will about it compared to a gun it is a pretty good deterrent and surely a way to give you some extra time to flee. dont forget a couple of good kicks before you depart to impair his ability or desire to run for a while. i had two guys run off once when i pulled it guess they had experience with it before. it shoots a straight stream about 20 and you have a long time of spraying to hit their face. most of the time i feel secure with my keltec 3at although i had an instructor razz me about it. he carried a ruger gp100 with a 3 barrel. so much for concealability especially in hot weather. i own a gp100 and it is one fine gun. i just wouldnt consider it a conceal carry weapon. the rest of the time i like the feeling a large can of police grade pepper spray gives me. i carry it on my belt in a military holder. reaching down and feeling it gives me the same feeling that big guns give short dicked fellas. and the rest of the time when im defenseless i just revert to the good old street fighting tactics. steve .

From : christopher d thompson

on sat 20 sep 2008 203133 -0700 geyser wrote typical anti-gun pussy garbage rhetoric. explains why violent crime is soaring in the uk and oz. it says nothing at all about crime rates. criminals arent carrying guns because they feel frightened and paranoid out in the world they have some very different reasons. ill discuss that with you at length ken but i might call you a dolt again and youd be crushed. yes but the fact remains the bad guys have weapons and we as citizens have the right to defend ourselves against those who mean to do harm. gun control only removes the most effective tools from those who follow the law leaving them in the hands of criminals. and with no armed threat to consider they continue to do what they want without regard to the law or human life. the study does explain why you smuggle your gun into places where guns are prohibited. it explains why punkin always keeps his gun within reach next to the bed even while hes sitting at his computer desk. it explains why nathan wont go out into the world without his concealed tactical advantage. stop and think for a min like we have. bad things happen all the time here there anywhere. you mean to tell me that if someone comes up and sticks a weapon in your face you actually think you better off unarmed and unable to defend yourself. remember seconds count in this situation and the cops are only minutes away. ah but i know im waisting valuable band width trying to reason with you and inconveniencing a bunch of electrons for no practical reason! -- chris .

From : geyser

napalmheart wrote nathan w. collier wrote although this is sure to surprise many of you i am working on warming up to open carry. im not willing to sacrifice my tactical advantage of concealed carry but im trying to warm up to the idea none-the-less. if you are already familiar with our sister site http//concealedcarryforum.com im sure youll find yourself at home on our newest sister site http//opencarryforum.com and i hope to see you there. please share the link and get us off to a good start. new study explains whats up with chickenshit republican gun weenies. http//.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7623256.stm their research published in the journal science indicates that people who are sensitive to fear or threat are likely to support a right wing agenda. those who perceived less danger in a series of images and sounds were more inclined to support liberal policies. they found that subjects who were more easily startled tended to have political views that would be classified as more right wing being more in favour of capital punishment and higher defence spending but opposed to abortion rights. on the other hand you have people who are more supportive of pacifism and who advocate gun control - and there are lots of areas where people who are less sensitive to threat would project those kinds of feelings into the political arena. typical anti-gun pussy garbage rhetoric. explains why violent crime is soaring in the uk and oz. it says nothing at all about crime rates. criminals arent carrying guns because they feel frightened and paranoid out in the world they have some very different reasons. ill discuss that with you at length ken but i might call you a dolt again and youd be crushed. the study does explain why you smuggle your gun into places where guns are prohibited. it explains why punkin always keeps his gun within reach next to the bed even while hes sitting at his computer desk. it explains why nathan wont go out into the world without his concealed tactical advantage. .

From : geyser

nathan w. collier wrote although this is sure to surprise many of you i am working on warming up to open carry. im not willing to sacrifice my tactical advantage of concealed carry but im trying to warm up to the idea none-the-less. if you are already familiar with our sister site http//concealedcarryforum.com im sure youll find yourself at home on our newest sister site http//opencarryforum.com and i hope to see you there. please share the link and get us off to a good start. new study explains whats up with chickenshit republican gun weenies. http//.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7623256.stm their research published in the journal science indicates that people who are sensitive to fear or threat are likely to support a right wing agenda. those who perceived less danger in a series of images and sounds were more inclined to support liberal policies. they found that subjects who were more easily startled tended to have political views that would be classified as more right wing being more in favour of capital punishment and higher defence spending but opposed to abortion rights. on the other hand you have people who are more supportive of pacifism and who advocate gun control - and there are lots of areas where people who are less sensitive to threat would project those kinds of feelings into the political arena. .

From : nunya

snip what band/freq are you chatting on and how much power were you pumping yagi specs i picked up an icom 7000 earlier this summer and currently have it in the truck for when we go camping. im thinking of mounting it in the shack though cause im here more. fmb north mexico which may be reclaimed for the us by the hottest gov from the coldest state i am using 80 40 and 20 meters. mostly 80 and 40. the other evening i was making contacts using 500 watts. the hf rig for our emcomm station is an icom 756 pro 2 with a pw1 linear transmitting through a b&w bwd-90 dipole for 80 meters and a cushcraft a4s for 40 through 10 meters on a 83 foot tower. michael .

From : fmb

meanwhile a perfectly good emcomm station is sitting silent. i did go in and test the station before i got my cease and desist order and it is perfect for doing the needed relays. the stations in louisianna and on the georgia coast both thought i was sitting in their yards. in fact when i swung the beam toward cajun land i was not only hitting them hard i was getting reports back from texas and as far away as new mexico. when i pointed it toward kentucky to see if i could hit the station that is dispatching a lot of the medical relief i was lighting up folks from louisville to milwaukee. what band/freq are you chatting on and how much power were you pumping yagi specs i picked up an icom 7000 earlier this summer and currently have it in the truck for when we go camping. im thinking of mounting it in the shack though cause im here more. fmb north mexico which may be reclaimed for the us by the hottest gov from the coldest state .

From : nunya

michael everything ok there sure hope the procedure on your back was successful. ken for some reason the neurologist decided to delay the micro whatever. they instead opted for a bunch of cortezone/steroid shots in the spine for the moment. i didnt feel very good the next day and by the day after that i felt somewhat better. i would say i have about a 40% to 50% reduction in pain which is a start. we may try another round of the injections and wait a bit for the surgery. while i would like to feel more that 50% better ill take what i can get. i have actually spent the last three days mobilizing equipment and supplies to go to the gustav landfall. looks like it may not have been as bad as predicted but now we are looking at hannah headed toward savannah. had the docs gone with the proceedure they had planned i probably wouldnt have been able to help with the gustav callout. at least i have a lot more experience installing 1.2 ghz d-star radios and setting up situation rooms. working with multiple relief/emergency organizations can keep one occupied. now i am back at work and trying to catch up. if the steroids and crap they shot in my back hold up for a while i am going to take my wife on vacation in a couple of weeks. we had to skip the last one because i was in the bed for the entire time i had scheduled off. i appreciate the concern. now i just gotta get over some hurt feelings. one of the relief organizations i am working with needs some help from the other and the powers that be seem to all have some kind of power struggle going on and wont let me use the local station to relay traffic which is all i am really good for right now. just installing a couple of radios and antennas has showed me that i might not be really ready to go to where the real action is so i thought sitting in the local eoc and relaying traffic would be a decent contribution. but there is not a signed mou between the two organizations and they are sticklering me with the rules. meanwhile a perfectly good emcomm station is sitting silent. i did go in and test the station before i got my cease and desist order and it is perfect for doing the needed relays. the stations in louisianna and on the georgia coast both thought i was sitting in their yards. in fact when i swung the beam toward cajun land i was not only hitting them hard i was getting reports back from texas and as far away as new mexico. when i pointed it toward kentucky to see if i could hit the station that is dispatching a lot of the medical relief i was lighting up folks from louisville to milwaukee. my personal shack wont get the job done so now i am looking at just stepping up to the plate and buying a radio that i can do the job with out of pocket. i have been trying to be frugal with my money but now i have a real excuse to spend some. i am thinking about selling one of my motorcyles to finance the new station so the wife wont pop a gasket. at least i wont have to worry about mous or whatever if i decide to use my station in the future to help an agency that our local director says we dont have an agreement with. of course the party needing help is being hard headed also and wont officially ask them for an mou apparently they all had a bad experience together in the past. it really is sad when grown people act all silly if you dont believe it just watch me for a while. ;- michael .

From : napalmheart

snip back pain can be a bitch. been there done that actually still doing it. i really learned that ice is your friend. id be looking for much better than 50/50. going to fuse it today is the day and i have to be at the outpatient center at 300 pm. micro something or other. they call it minimally invasive spine surgery. they go in with a scope and just grind off the spur that is impinging on my nerve bundle. doc says he is 99.9% off the record but on the record he has to give a big list of potential outcomes including paralysis and death. you know the usual disclaimers. doc claims i am in and out on the same day as long as all goes according to plan and back to light duty work by monday. i just want it to stop hurting. this is supposed to be super safe and reliable. but any surgical proceedure is bad juju to me. i have been continuing to work but the pain has made me a bit of a grump. i have this fear of going down the road that rush limbaugh did so i try to go without the meds. there are days where the hired help or the wife tell me to either take a pill or leave the premesis. i see it coming i start acting like a complete jerk i realize what i am doing as it is happening but i cant stop it. i go swallow a lortab 10 and in a few minutes i start feeling better and so does everyone around me. but that aint a long term plan for me. i spent a long time ending my desire for nicotine caffine alcohol and the like. i do not want to have to kick an opiate habit. thus i spend a lot of time being hard headed and not taking the meds the doctor has given me. hope your deal gets better. from what i can tell once you start down the bad back road you keep fighting it for life in some form or another. my deal was finding the right doctors. i had my first evaluation with the rehab folks last week and another meeting with them tomorrow. rehab starts for real next week and the doc said i could ride my motorcyle up to wisconson with the ol lady when she leaves on the 13th of september. i really look forward to getting back on the bike. i have riden less than 2k on it this year. oops i am rambling again... michael michael i have been where you are with pain and its a real bitch. i hope your surgery went well. i worked with sciatic pain down my right leg from an l4-l5 impingement for about 18 months before the disc ruptured and i had a lumbar laminectomy done. i work in a prison here in michigan so that was a lot of fun. i wore one of those big braces at work and used minimal meds while there. i know how it can really screw up your attitude and behavior toward others. that all happened in 89-90. since then ive had a few episodes but have really had much much more time with little to no pain than time when i needed strong meds. best wishes ken olson clarksville mi .

From : roy

snip back pain can be a bitch. been there done that actually still doing it. i really learned that ice is your friend. id be looking for much better than 50/50. going to fuse it today is the day and i have to be at the outpatient center at 300 pm. micro something or other. they call it minimally invasive spine surgery. they go in with a scope and just grind off the spur that is impinging on my nerve bundle. doc says he is 99.9% off the record but on the record he has to give a big list of potential outcomes including paralysis and death. you know the usual disclaimers. doc claims i am in and out on the same day as long as all goes according to plan and back to light duty work by monday. i just want it to stop hurting. this is supposed to be super safe and reliable. but any surgical proceedure is bad juju to me. i have been continuing to work but the pain has made me a bit of a grump. i have this fear of going down the road that rush limbaugh did so i try to go without the meds. rush was a asshole before the drugs and remains so today imo. there are days where the hired help or the wife tell me to either take a pill or leave the premesis. i see it coming i start acting like a complete jerk i realize what i am doing as it is happening but i cant stop it. i go swallow a lortab 10 and in a few minutes i start feeling better and so does everyone around me. but that aint a long term plan for me. i spent a long time ending my desire for nicotine caffine alcohol and the like. i do not want to have to kick an opiate habit. thus i spend a lot of time being hard headed and not taking the meds the doctor has given me. after my shoulder was done my doc gave me a script for pain meds. i took them for a day&1/2 and went to ibuprofen otc @ 800mg. when needed. worked real well. hope your deal gets better. from what i can tell once you start down the bad back road you keep fighting it for life in some form or another. my deal was finding the right doctors. i had my first evaluation with the rehab folks last week and another meeting with them tomorrow. rehab starts for real next week and the doc said i could ride my motorcyle up to wisconson with the ol lady when she leaves on the 13th of september. i really look forward to getting back on the bike. i have riden less than 2k on it this year. oops i am rambling again... my deal started many years ago another miss by the va. ive learned to deal with it. raced cars rode bikes and more recently played with atvs. always sore when i got off but learned that real good footwear always a good firm chair ice and ibuprofen made life a heck of a lot eaiser. now that im a bit older shut up rabbit! ive toned things down some. good luck!! roy michael .

From : napalmheart

snip good points made here. fits in well with the training ive had here in mi. ken napalm denny & geyser i am trying to make a point about personal rights here. are yall saying that if a cop came onto your property and took your guns just because he had a misguided belief that he had the right to sidestep the constitution and state law yall would stand for it if so it is just a matter of time before it does happen to you and may be permanetly. under the law in mi he may well have the authority to temporarily secure the landowners weapons to ensure his safety in that instant case. temporarily secure not confiscate. b.t.w. the deputy in question did get an official reprimand for his actions. he violated my second amendment rights in addition to my state issued carry permit rights. i have lots of firearms training. in fact i spent about a decade training cops and worked as a range officer for national swat competitions. then under the laws of your state and in this particular case the system worked and he was put in check. in none of the training i have received or given was there ever any mention of surrendering your firearms at the whim of an leo on your own property. now had i been in the commision of a crime the circumstances would have been different but i was just protecting my person on my property. had i been on public property i would have handled it differently. your training is likely specific to your state and likely different than the training ive received in my state. in this circumstance an ignorant cop learned a lifetime lesson. that some law abiding citizens are armed and not sheep. also that if you try to violate their rights they will not comply and to furthur complicate the issue they may be on a first name basis with your watch commander and the sheriff. yeah i took a risk in this circumstance but i was well within my legal rights and the cop was not. just because he had a badge does not mean he had the law on his side. when you let someone walk all over you just because they wear a uniform then you have allowed yourself to be violated and not only do you suffer but the community suffers. im on a first name basis with many sheriffs deputies and state troopers here including the sheriff of the county i live in. if one of his men or a state trooper especially one that i didnt know and that didnt know me wanted me to hand over my weapon while we were taking care of a situation i would comply and then make complaints to the appropriate people if i believed that the cop had behaved in an improper manner. about three months after this happened the burglar alarm went off at my shop. i live 7 miles from work and the sheriffs office is 3 miles from the office. like in past experiences i beat the deputies to the shop. that is sad considering i was in the bed and had to get dressed grab my gun body armor keys drive across town without running any redlights unlock the gates and front door. my truck was in the parking lot with the flashers on i had the building lights on two doors open and was clearing the building when the first deputies came through the door. i hope that the deputies in your county arent hanging around at the office. the responding deputies may well have had to come from a lot farther than 3 miles. the first two admonished me for entering my own building without waiting for them and asked me to put down my weapons. before we could discuss it further a third officer thier watch commander arrived on the scene and hollered through the door sherrifs department! dont shoot me michael! then walked on in. i said howdy do then told him that the first two officers and i were just discussing whether or not i was going to hand over my guns again. he then spent a few minutes explaining to them that a business owner has every right to carry a gun on his own property especially when there was every reason to suspect a burglar on the premises. that once they verify his identity they cannot take his guns. most cops just assume that they are the only people qualified to carry a gun they just dont consider the facts and actual laws. if those first two deputies didnt know who i was and they told me to put down my weapon i would comply. in a high-stress situation like what you describe it would be too easy for someone to get shot that need not. common sense applies here. quoting from your above paragraph that once they verify his identity they cannot take his guns. iow they didnt know who you were and had yet to verify your identity. good thing the watch commander that knew you was there. what was funny in this situation was after we finished clearing the building the watch commander who happened to be on the local swat team pulled his new counter sniper rifle out to the trunk to let me play with it. i had to clear it because it was

From : nunya

snip back pain can be a bitch. been there done that actually still doing it. i really learned that ice is your friend. id be looking for much better than 50/50. going to fuse it today is the day and i have to be at the outpatient center at 300 pm. micro something or other. they call it minimally invasive spine surgery. they go in with a scope and just grind off the spur that is impinging on my nerve bundle. doc says he is 99.9% off the record but on the record he has to give a big list of potential outcomes including paralysis and death. you know the usual disclaimers. doc claims i am in and out on the same day as long as all goes according to plan and back to light duty work by monday. i just want it to stop hurting. this is supposed to be super safe and reliable. but any surgical proceedure is bad juju to me. i have been continuing to work but the pain has made me a bit of a grump. i have this fear of going down the road that rush limbaugh did so i try to go without the meds. there are days where the hired help or the wife tell me to either take a pill or leave the premesis. i see it coming i start acting like a complete jerk i realize what i am doing as it is happening but i cant stop it. i go swallow a lortab 10 and in a few minutes i start feeling better and so does everyone around me. but that aint a long term plan for me. i spent a long time ending my desire for nicotine caffine alcohol and the like. i do not want to have to kick an opiate habit. thus i spend a lot of time being hard headed and not taking the meds the doctor has given me. hope your deal gets better. from what i can tell once you start down the bad back road you keep fighting it for life in some form or another. my deal was finding the right doctors. i had my first evaluation with the rehab folks last week and another meeting with them tomorrow. rehab starts for real next week and the doc said i could ride my motorcyle up to wisconson with the ol lady when she leaves on the 13th of september. i really look forward to getting back on the bike. i have riden less than 2k on it this year. oops i am rambling again... michael .

From : roy

snip make it easy... what group denny rec.motorcycles.harley snip i gotta admidt as i have reread my posts i have gotten a bit wierd and crossed the line with the regulars. can we blame it on the slipped disk this time and the fact that i have been living off lortabs for months i am up late tonight trying to catch up on work gotta go to a funeral tomorrow and wednesday is hospital day for me. the doc says the proceedure they are going to do has better than a 50/50 chance of relieving the chronic pain i have been suffering for the past eight months. my apologies to the group and maybe ill have a better attitude about life when i get back to work the end of the week. back pain can be a bitch. been there done that actually still doing it. i really learned that ice is your friend. id be looking for much better than 50/50. going to fuse it michael .

From : nunya

snip make it easy... what group denny rec.motorcycles.harley i have been participating in that group for years and nathan has wandered by because he just bought his first h-d and started complaining about chinese motorcycle parts and trying to advertise his forums. of course he wandered by made one post about motorcycles then immediately started spamming the group with his gun agenda. he wont admidt it but when you see how he does usenet it seems obvious what is going on. yall nor he have yet to catch on to what i am alluding to with my posts in this topic. the topic is open carry. yall keep reading and referencing your replies as to concealed carry. i gave three examples of *open carry* gone bad. in nearly 30 years of carrying handguns i have personally had four interations with cops where things got dicey my rights were infringed and crap went south. every time *open carry* was involved. the colloquialism i used about the local flavorful character was another example of this ideal and how cops will just nut up sometimes when they see a gun whether a person is up to something or not. i thought i was dealing with an audience that would realize that. if yall really want some interesting reading you may want to spend some time googling nathan + montana + usenet and several combinations on that theme. seems like the boy gets around tauting his open carry forum or whatever forum he is wrecking that week. of course he always tries to look on topic but the half a dozen urls or more in his signature line is a dead give away. i have been posting in this group for what three or four years how many times have i gotten too kooky i know i am a tad opinionated every once in a while but i usually play fairly nice. i gotta admidt as i have reread my posts i have gotten a bit wierd and crossed the line with the regulars. can we blame it on the slipped disk this time and the fact that i have been living off lortabs for months i am up late tonight trying to catch up on work gotta go to a funeral tomorrow and wednesday is hospital day for me. the doc says the proceedure they are going to do has better than a 50/50 chance of relieving the chronic pain i have been suffering for the past eight months. my apologies to the group and maybe ill have a better attitude about life when i get back to work the end of the week. michael .

From : denny

on tue 19 aug 2008 094232 -0400 nunya wrote now to see where yall are on another gun related subject... what do yalll think about the harold texas school district arming the teachers and administration. i saw where some school advocate was pitching a fit saying only trained security guards should carry guns at schools. at the columbine incident the trained security gurad was the first person shot... michael ill answer that simply by saying good job harold tx. a ccw should allow a person to carry anywhere they legally can go. the possibility of a threat doesnt stop at the door because its a school. chris this dickhead is nothing but a troll. hes into the same thing on another ng. check google. make it easy... what group i think it was harley carry. just google this group hit this thread his profile and it will give ya all the threads hes posted in. id do it for ya but theres a race on in a few minutes. and im headed to the fair for some last-night munching... later denny .

From : roy

on tue 19 aug 2008 094232 -0400 nunya wrote now to see where yall are on another gun related subject... what do yalll think about the harold texas school district arming the teachers and administration. i saw where some school advocate was pitching a fit saying only trained security guards should carry guns at schools. at the columbine incident the trained security gurad was the first person shot... michael ill answer that simply by saying good job harold tx. a ccw should allow a person to carry anywhere they legally can go. the possibility of a threat doesnt stop at the door because its a school. chris this dickhead is nothing but a troll. hes into the same thing on another ng. check google. make it easy... what group i think it was harley carry. just google this group hit this thread his profile and it will give ya all the threads hes posted in. id do it for ya but theres a race on in a few minutes. roy denny .

From : denny

on tue 19 aug 2008 094232 -0400 nunya wrote now to see where yall are on another gun related subject... what do yalll think about the harold texas school district arming the teachers and administration. i saw where some school advocate was pitching a fit saying only trained security guards should carry guns at schools. at the columbine incident the trained security gurad was the first person shot... michael ill answer that simply by saying good job harold tx. a ccw should allow a person to carry anywhere they legally can go. the possibility of a threat doesnt stop at the door because its a school. chris this dickhead is nothing but a troll. hes into the same thing on another ng. check google. make it easy... what group denny .

From : roy

on tue 19 aug 2008 094232 -0400 nunya wrote now to see where yall are on another gun related subject... what do yalll think about the harold texas school district arming the teachers and administration. i saw where some school advocate was pitching a fit saying only trained security guards should carry guns at schools. at the columbine incident the trained security gurad was the first person shot... michael ill answer that simply by saying good job harold tx. a ccw should allow a person to carry anywhere they legally can go. the possibility of a threat doesnt stop at the door because its a school. chris this dickhead is nothing but a troll. hes into the same thing on another ng. check google. roy chris .

From : geyser

nunya wrote nunya wrote ... as the the local flavorful charactor. nobody has told the story of his shooting from the perspective of many of his neighbors in the press. there is an outrage among some in the community that one of their neighbors whom everyone knew had a screw or two loose could just get gunned down by the cops with no questions asked. he had lived there all of his life with no problems and most of the people liked him even though he was a tad loopy. now they worry that when grandpa has a bad day and mixes up his medications the cops may just come pop a cap in him also. there is always at least three sides to every story and to discount all but the official cop side of the encounter is to be very narrow minded. remember it could be you that mixes up your medication one day and is wandering around the yard with your pistol. do you want the cops showing up and shooting you no but the neighbors probably should demand it. maybe your town has some kind of drugs in the water supply michael if you read carefully you will notice i never said this was *my* opinion. of course you never said so it would have been counterproductive. but it was your opinion. you began by sowing seeds of distrust of course the official story is highly embellished and rationalized then wanted us to believe that what didnt happen before was more relevant than what was happening at present 64 year old man with no prior criminal record then the cop was the bad guy police officer decided to stop and hassle him cops are bad the moral of the story is this. cops shouldnt hassle people back to the past as evidence that the man wasnt a danger now even though this man had never committed a crime in his life this is interesting. i re-read your second sentence below then think about how youve been trying to convince us how politely and properly you handled your own confrontation with deputy fife and something doesnt quite ring true. i reached into my truck removed my backup and asked for my primary to be returned. yall should have seen the look on his face. .

From : denny

no i rearmed myself as a matter of principle. i showed a lot of restraint when he grabbed my gun by letting go of it. my first thought was to wrestle him over it but thought that may have ended up in somebody getting shot for sure. i was on my on property and well within my rights to have a gun in my hand. he was the one that crossed the line by forcefully taking my legally possesed gun. i was not going to stand there and trust my well being to such an obviously ignorant person. cop or not. i guess you just dont understand the principle here. badge or not he had no right to come onto my private property and take my firearm. in the same circumstance i would do it again. yeah i may catch a bullet for my trouble but i wont be lead to my grave like a sheep. michael obviously wherever you are from has much different laws that ohio. now dont your shift at the mall start soon denny .

From : nunya

nunya wrote ... as the the local flavorful charactor. nobody has told the story of his shooting from the perspective of many of his neighbors in the press. there is an outrage among some in the community that one of their neighbors whom everyone knew had a screw or two loose could just get gunned down by the cops with no questions asked. he had lived there all of his life with no problems and most of the people liked him even though he was a tad loopy. now they worry that when grandpa has a bad day and mixes up his medications the cops may just come pop a cap in him also. there is always at least three sides to every story and to discount all but the official cop side of the encounter is to be very narrow minded. remember it could be you that mixes up your medication one day and is wandering around the yard with your pistol. do you want the cops showing up and shooting you no but the neighbors probably should demand it. maybe your town has some kind of drugs in the water supply michael if you read carefully you will notice i never said this was *my* opinion. and i quote nobody has told the story of his shooting from the perspective of many of his neighbors. i just passed on the story as i have heard it discussed by several folks that went to elementary school with the man in question. they may be nearly as flavorful as he but they are a tad miffed about how it was handled. apparently they dont think andy talyor would have let barney handle it like it went down. some of the locals in lula are still reminiscent of the the darling family and ernest t. bass. if you give them the opportunity things will go bad even though they are really good people at heart. they are just a tad backwards and have not kept up with modern society and have poor social skills. interesting converstation is sparked by presenting differing views then discussing them with some semblance of civility and respect even if you may not necessarily agree with it. i now see that it is quite easy to draw the few regulars in this newgroup into a subject and then watch them dogpile on someone without even looking at how the information was presented whether it was from the writers perspective or someone elses. yall jumped to an immediate conclusion that this was my opinion even though i never stated that. yall need to be more careful when yall read my posts. look for what is not written as much as what is written and use at least some first year college reading comprehension. in both topics i have presented in this thread yall have jumped to conclusions without asking specific questions and i think it is hilarious to watch. i may be wrong but it looks like i am dealing with products of the public school system. yall just keep thinking i am an idiot a mall ninja a redneck a whatever suits your little box that keeps you at the top of the pile and massages yalls superior attitudes. keep thinking that i am incapable of dealing with authority figures in stressful situations and the opinion of about four anonymous folks on the internet are not going to affect me one way or the other. what i have seen is an inability to ask pertinent questions in an attempt to get all the information possible and think before making a decision as to what actually went down in a particular event. my back is hurting i have to get my employees day lined up and i have a weekend seminar i am teaching to prep for so i have to blow off use net for the day. ill give yall the weekend to spank me and ill see you on monday. remember that i dont take usenet personally so if you do then that is your deal. michael ;- this is really good fun... .

From : nunya

on tue 19 aug 2008 094232 -0400 nunya wrote now to see where yall are on another gun related subject... what do yalll think about the harold texas school district arming the teachers and administration. i saw where some school advocate was pitching a fit saying only trained security guards should carry guns at schools. at the columbine incident the trained security gurad was the first person shot... michael ill answer that simply by saying good job harold tx. a ccw should allow a person to carry anywhere they legally can go. the possibility of a threat doesnt stop at the door because its a school. -- chris finally we agreed on something.. ;- i missed out on stirring the pot yesterday due to three doctors appointments with my slipped disk. three docs three different opinions. kinda like usenet... michael .

From : geyser

nunya wrote .... as the the local flavorful charactor. nobody has told the story of his shooting from the perspective of many of his neighbors in the press. there is an outrage among some in the community that one of their neighbors whom everyone knew had a screw or two loose could just get gunned down by the cops with no questions asked. he had lived there all of his life with no problems and most of the people liked him even though he was a tad loopy. now they worry that when grandpa has a bad day and mixes up his medications the cops may just come pop a cap in him also. there is always at least three sides to every story and to discount all but the official cop side of the encounter is to be very narrow minded. remember it could be you that mixes up your medication one day and is wandering around the yard with your pistol. do you want the cops showing up and shooting you no but the neighbors probably should demand it. maybe your town has some kind of drugs in the water supply michael .

From : nosey

denny wrote yep just about right now. this guys bs trying to explain his position is sounding more and more like your old buddy dd. the more he talks the deeper the rut gets. he has a long way to go to catch up to dd. he didnt even mention his ass bleeding yet. -- ken .

From : roy

denny wrote yep just about right now. this guys bs trying to explain his position is sounding more and more like your old buddy dd. the more he talks the deeper the rut gets. he has a long way to go to catch up to dd. he didnt even mention his ass bleeding yet. he had to be one of the sickest sobs ive ever run into on the www. i still have notes on him that i brought with me. roy ken .

From : nunya

forecast keeps changing they are worried that its going to stall over us like alberto did in 94. if you remember we had a huge flood with that storm that nearly brought the whole state to a stand still. im gonna look in the morning to see when i need to put the top on the jeep. im looking on the bright side of this fay will bring the rain and give me some mud to play in! and just in time because the front drive shaft has new u joints so 4wd is working!!! -- chris well if the storm causes a full scale emergency call out look for me. you may not like me but i will be one of the volunteers providing emergency relief. michael k9vr a.r.e.s. s.b.a. disastor relief wilderness first responder c.e.r.t. f.e.m.a. .

From : christopher d thompson

on wed 20 aug 2008 103200 -0400 nunya wrote on wed 20 aug 2008 091637 -0400 nunya wrote snip itd have to be a hell of a flood for ares members out of gainsville to be called out lanier is still a dry lake bed last i heard and that being one of the largest lakes in the state thats a good place for most all the water to run off into. -- chris maybe you didnt notice the other affiliations. it seems like that is how everything in this group gets read. folks seem to pick and choose what they want to read and comprehend. and i didnt even post all of the rescue groups i am affiliated with because they are not all applicable to your geographic location or these types of disastors. yes we could use the water. i have not seen any water in the cove behind my house in about three years. so i will take all we can get. i didnt ignore anything ares is the most likely to be called. cert isnt really any more special than ares. im sure the wilderness will need a first responder while the fd handles the problems. whats your affiliation with fema amateur radio emergency service i bet next you throw in a red cross affiliation too wow every ares member has that! -- chris .

From : nunya

on wed 20 aug 2008 091637 -0400 nunya wrote snip itd have to be a hell of a flood for ares members out of gainsville to be called out lanier is still a dry lake bed last i heard and that being one of the largest lakes in the state thats a good place for most all the water to run off into. -- chris maybe you didnt notice the other affiliations. it seems like that is how everything in this group gets read. folks seem to pick and choose what they want to read and comprehend. and i didnt even post all of the rescue groups i am affiliated with because they are not all applicable to your geographic location or these types of disastors. yes we could use the water. i have not seen any water in the cove behind my house in about three years. so i will take all we can get. .

From : denny

snip sigh clearly he saw you in a new light when you produced a second gun. and i can better understand why the towns flavorful characters might be shot and killed by police after you taught barney his lesson. i really like how yall have shown your preponderance to jump to conclusions and assume i handled the situation inappropriately. i am much more professional than yall are assuming and probably much more professional than yall are in the handling of firearms and the police. yall seem to assume that i just ran to my truck and whipped out my back up and start hollering at the cop. it didnt go down like that. but nobody asked me to elaborate. you all just assumed that i am a hillbilly and handled the situation imporperly and that the cop because he has a badge handled the situtation in the correct manner. nah imo most responded to what you wrote. nothing more. i doubt anybody assumed that you were hilbilly. whatever that means most figure you are a bser or fool and respond to that .regarding your statement being more professional than others in handling firearms that is the statement of a troll. most will tire of you soon and stop playing. yep just about right now. this guys bs trying to explain his position is sounding more and more like your old buddy dd. the more he talks the deeper the rut gets. denny .

From : roy

snip the state of georgia issues carry permits i thought it was done at the county level. you apply through the local probate judge but the license says georgia firearms license therefore it is easy to call it a state issued permit. snip of more bs a little confused arent ya you kfd denny yesterday today you reply. looks like a best friendship has been formed.g .

From : christopher d thompson

on tue 19 aug 2008 094232 -0400 nunya wrote now to see where yall are on another gun related subject... what do yalll think about the harold texas school district arming the teachers and administration. i saw where some school advocate was pitching a fit saying only trained security guards should carry guns at schools. at the columbine incident the trained security gurad was the first person shot... michael ill answer that simply by saying good job harold tx. a ccw should allow a person to carry anywhere they legally can go. the possibility of a threat doesnt stop at the door because its a school. -- chris .

From : denny

forecast keeps changing they are worried that its going to stall over us like alberto did in 94. if you remember we had a huge flood with that storm that nearly brought the whole state to a stand still. im gonna look in the morning to see when i need to put the top on the jeep. im looking on the bright side of this fay will bring the rain and give me some mud to play in! and just in time because the front drive shaft has new u joints so 4wd is working!!! -- chris well if the storm causes a full scale emergency call out look for me. you may not like me but i will be one of the volunteers providing emergency relief. michael k9vr a.r.e.s. s.b.a. disastor relief wilderness first responder c.e.r.t. f.e.m.a. oh good grief. next youre gonna say youre a react member too. more proof youre a friggen idiot. i can just picture this guy driving around with 18 antennas on a 78 pick-up staring down the local law enforcement to get to the front of the donut line so he can get to his job protecting the local mall. denny .

From : christopher d thompson

on wed 20 aug 2008 090355 -0400 nunya wrote i really like how yall have shown your preponderance to jump to conclusions and assume i handled the situation inappropriately. i am much more professional than yall are assuming and probably much more professional than yall are in the handling of firearms and the police. yall seem to assume that i just ran to my truck and whipped out my back up and start hollering at the cop. it didnt go down like that. but nobody asked me to elaborate. you all just assumed that i am a hillbilly and handled the situation imporperly and that the cop because he has a badge handled the situtation in the correct manner. alright then enlighten us. how could you rearming yourself be professional when dealing with a leo whether he was right or not for his safety and yours you should have never shown him that you rearmed or were armed with a bug if thats how you managed it. leos work a very dangerous job they do not know you from adam. in fact most have had adam shoot at them or threaten them in some way. so when dealing with a guy with a gun they usually disarm for their protection. most officers ask a few questions look at the pistol out of curiosity and when satisfied that your not a trouble maker hand your side arm back to you and send you on your happy way. down here producing a 2nd gun is likely to have you looking down a .45 hole. -- chris .

From : christopher d thompson

on wed 20 aug 2008 091637 -0400 nunya wrote well if the storm causes a full scale emergency call out look for me. you may not like me but i will be one of the volunteers providing emergency relief. michael k9vr a.r.e.s. s.b.a. disastor relief wilderness first responder c.e.r.t. f.e.m.a. itd have to be a hell of a flood for ares members out of gainsville to be called out lanier is still a dry lake bed last i heard and that being one of the largest lakes in the state thats a good place for most all the water to run off into. -- chris .

From : roy

snip sigh clearly he saw you in a new light when you produced a second gun. and i can better understand why the towns flavorful characters might be shot and killed by police after you taught barney his lesson. i really like how yall have shown your preponderance to jump to conclusions and assume i handled the situation inappropriately. i am much more professional than yall are assuming and probably much more professional than yall are in the handling of firearms and the police. yall seem to assume that i just ran to my truck and whipped out my back up and start hollering at the cop. it didnt go down like that. but nobody asked me to elaborate. you all just assumed that i am a hillbilly and handled the situation imporperly and that the cop because he has a badge handled the situtation in the correct manner. nah imo most responded to what you wrote. nothing more. i doubt anybody assumed that you were hilbilly. whatever that means most figure you are a bser or fool and respond to that .regarding your statement being more professional than others in handling firearms that is the statement of a troll. most will tire of you soon and stop playing. .

From : nunya

snip sigh clearly he saw you in a new light when you produced a second gun. and i can better understand why the towns flavorful characters might be shot and killed by police after you taught barney his lesson. i really like how yall have shown your preponderance to jump to conclusions and assume i handled the situation inappropriately. i am much more professional than yall are assuming and probably much more professional than yall are in the handling of firearms and the police. yall seem to assume that i just ran to my truck and whipped out my back up and start hollering at the cop. it didnt go down like that. but nobody asked me to elaborate. you all just assumed that i am a hillbilly and handled the situation imporperly and that the cop because he has a badge handled the situtation in the correct manner. a brief synopsis of a story is told and you fill in the blanks with assumptions and decide that a person is a moron because he stood up for his rights with a cop. i believe yall are proving that you are incapable of asking questions and coming to a rational decision as to the outcome of the situation and how it was handled. as the the local flavorful charactor. nobody has told the story of his shooting from the perspective of many of his neighbors in the press. there is an outrage among some in the community that one of their neighbors whom everyone knew had a screw or two loose could just get gunned down by the cops with no questions asked. he had lived there all of his life with no problems and most of the people liked him even though he was a tad loopy. now they worry that when grandpa has a bad day and mixes up his medications the cops may just come pop a cap in him also. there is always at least three sides to every story and to discount all but the official cop side of the encounter is to be very narrow minded. remember it could be you that mixes up your medication one day and is wandering around the yard with your pistol. do you want the cops showing up and shooting you michael .

From : roy

on tue 19 aug 2008 214814 -0400 denny wrote on tue 19 aug 2008 171648 -0400 denny wrote i have a second amendment right to keep and bear arms. i have a carry permit that has been issued to me by the state of georgia. the state of georgia issues carry permits i thought it was done at the county level. oh shit! hes in ga..... -- chris you sound like youre worried chris... if i can have the snoidiot you can have this one... vbg denny ill let you keep them both how bout that -- chris no fricken way!!! thatd be like giving ole roy a bucket of fried chicken and a plate of oysters...... denny i think chris has a hell of a idea. thinking about it youd have a best friend to shoot with and best friend to plow with.then ya can get a couple dozen sliders and hook up to the machine. bfg kinda side stepped the food reference there didnt ya... bg besides wed have to be in fla. to even hear the machine since you let the cat out of the bag in your last post... god this is gonna be a good day today!!! denny you got nada pudge! go to the other thread. g roy .

From : roy

on tue 19 aug 2008 214814 -0400 denny wrote on tue 19 aug 2008 171648 -0400 denny wrote i have a second amendment right to keep and bear arms. i have a carry permit that has been issued to me by the state of georgia. the state of georgia issues carry permits i thought it was done at the county level. oh shit! hes in ga..... -- chris you sound like youre worried chris... if i can have the snoidiot you can have this one... vbg denny ill let you keep them both how bout that -- chris no fricken way!!! thatd be like giving ole roy a bucket of fried chicken and a plate of oysters...... denny i think chris has a hell of a idea. thinking about it youd have a best friend to shoot with and best friend to plow with.then ya can get a couple dozen sliders and hook up to the machine. bfg roy .

From : denny

on tue 19 aug 2008 214814 -0400 denny wrote on tue 19 aug 2008 171648 -0400 denny wrote i have a second amendment right to keep and bear arms. i have a carry permit that has been issued to me by the state of georgia. the state of georgia issues carry permits i thought it was done at the county level. oh shit! hes in ga..... -- chris you sound like youre worried chris... if i can have the snoidiot you can have this one... vbg denny ill let you keep them both how bout that -- chris no fricken way!!! thatd be like giving ole roy a bucket of fried chicken and a plate of oysters...... denny .

From : nunya

snip the state of georgia issues carry permits i thought it was done at the county level. you apply through the local probate judge but the license says georgia firearms license therefore it is easy to call it a state issued permit. snip in ohio you have to obey the law officer. if he is wrong you go to his/her superior officer with your complaint. on the street you obey barney. if barney is obviously wrong we ask questions down here. snip but how many other places have you spewed this crap. ive read the same stuff by other posters on most gun related boards. it really does make all of us look bad. actually none. i usually stay out of gun discussions. i just wanted to see the political climate in this group. i figure i have been posting in here for a couple of years and it was time to test the waters. now how do my actions or statements make you look bad for someone to pass the actions of one person off as the responsibility of someone totally unrelated to them shows a narrow mindedness that cannot be reasoned with. that same person would associate the actions of a murderer or robber with you because both used a gun. no amount of reasonong will ever appease a person that makes that leap in logic. now something else to ponder since this is a open carry topic and something i tried one time with poor results. in the u.s.a. a cap and ball revolver is considered a curio and not a firearm. you can legally take a .44 caliber navy colt load it up strap it to your hip and carry it virtually anywhere. in the area im from itd get taken away from you by the first officer that saw it. nothing illegal about open carry but something about inciting public unrest...... georgia must be much different that ohio... actually it might get taken away but he would be in the wrong legally. then i would have me day in court. there is nothing to stop a person from carrying a cap and ball revolver from a firearms laws point of view. yeah georgia is different from ohio. not quite as many sheep down here. snip im sure not going to argue this in an open forum but i really suggest you get some legal advice before you do this. i bet you dont open carry that relic for very long in the mall. btw that mall reference is to being a mall ninja. do a google on that and youll understand why i call you that. looks like you are arguing the point. before i turned 21 i managed a hotel and restaurant. mcdonalds bed and breakfast very lame cant you do better snip cops dont like it when they know your recording the conversation. why not they have recorders looking out their windshields.... most often they like to have control of any recordings. at the time the leos were not running any type of recording devices and once they did start putting them in cars they were known to turn them off when they were doing something that may have been a little outside of department regulations. ask the cops in the rodney kink beating what they think of civilian recorders. i also speed dialed the phone number of a friend why not call 911 that way its an official recording.. because i wanted independent corraberation. you are not getting the picture here. 911 tapes sheriffs video tapes all that have been know to mysteriously dissapear in hillbilly jurisdictions. if i have control of the tapes and a reasonably credible witness who doesnt owe his job to the county then my chances are better in court. apparently you think that barney and his buddies are out to protect the guy on the streets interests 100% of the time. i believe they are covering their but first and the citizens second. and hit record button on the cell phone. record a conversation on a cell phone yes on any cell phone i have i can push a button and it will record both sides of the conversation. maybe you should read the instruction manual that comes with yours. cell phones will do more than make an recieve phone calls. michael .

From : denny

on tue 19 aug 2008 214814 -0400 denny wrote on tue 19 aug 2008 171648 -0400 denny wrote i have a second amendment right to keep and bear arms. i have a carry permit that has been issued to me by the state of georgia. the state of georgia issues carry permits i thought it was done at the county level. oh shit! hes in ga..... -- chris you sound like youre worried chris... if i can have the snoidiot you can have this one... vbg denny ill let you keep them both how bout that -- chris no fricken way!!! thatd be like giving ole roy a bucket of fried chicken and a plate of oysters...... denny i think chris has a hell of a idea. thinking about it youd have a best friend to shoot with and best friend to plow with.then ya can get a couple dozen sliders and hook up to the machine. bfg kinda side stepped the food reference there didnt ya... bg besides wed have to be in fla. to even hear the machine since you let the cat out of the bag in your last post... god this is gonna be a good day today!!! denny .

From : roy

on tue 19 aug 2008 214959 -0400 roy wrote on tue 19 aug 2008 171648 -0400 denny wrote i have a second amendment right to keep and bear arms. i have a carry permit that has been issued to me by the state of georgia. the state of georgia issues carry permits i thought it was done at the county level. oh shit! hes in ga..... -- chris you sound like youre worried chris... if i can have the snoidiot you can have this one... vbg now theres a pair that will beat a full house! chris are you in line for any of this weather we are getting down here roy denny forecast keeps changing they are worried that its going to stall over us like alberto did in 94. if you remember we had a huge flood with that storm that nearly brought the whole state to a stand still. the friggin thing is sitting about 75miles southwest of me. we are just getting rain bands now. they cant tell wtf its going next. talk is it will move out to sea about 20 miles and sit then come ashore again. tornados are the big worry. roy .

From : christopher d thompson

on tue 19 aug 2008 214814 -0400 denny wrote on tue 19 aug 2008 171648 -0400 denny wrote i have a second amendment right to keep and bear arms. i have a carry permit that has been issued to me by the state of georgia. the state of georgia issues carry permits i thought it was done at the county level. oh shit! hes in ga..... -- chris you sound like youre worried chris... if i can have the snoidiot you can have this one... vbg denny ill let you keep them both how bout that -- chris .

From : christopher d thompson

on tue 19 aug 2008 214959 -0400 roy wrote on tue 19 aug 2008 171648 -0400 denny wrote i have a second amendment right to keep and bear arms. i have a carry permit that has been issued to me by the state of georgia. the state of georgia issues carry permits i thought it was done at the county level. oh shit! hes in ga..... -- chris you sound like youre worried chris... if i can have the snoidiot you can have this one... vbg now theres a pair that will beat a full house! chris are you in line for any of this weather we are getting down here roy denny forecast keeps changing they are worried that its going to stall over us like alberto did in 94. if you remember we had a huge flood with that storm that nearly brought the whole state to a stand still. im gonna look in the morning to see when i need to put the top on the jeep. im looking on the bright side of this fay will bring the rain and give me some mud to play in! and just in time because the front drive shaft has new u joints so 4wd is working!!! -- chris .

From : roy

on tue 19 aug 2008 171648 -0400 denny wrote i have a second amendment right to keep and bear arms. i have a carry permit that has been issued to me by the state of georgia. the state of georgia issues carry permits i thought it was done at the county level. oh shit! hes in ga..... -- chris you sound like youre worried chris... if i can have the snoidiot you can have this one... vbg now theres a pair that will beat a full house! chris are you in line for any of this weather we are getting down here roy denny .

From : denny

on tue 19 aug 2008 171648 -0400 denny wrote i have a second amendment right to keep and bear arms. i have a carry permit that has been issued to me by the state of georgia. the state of georgia issues carry permits i thought it was done at the county level. oh shit! hes in ga..... -- chris you sound like youre worried chris... if i can have the snoidiot you can have this one... vbg denny .

From : nunya

snip you immediately rearmed yourself against what you had to have a gun in order to ask politely youre a dipshit. lots of folks get shot by jumpy cops and i am not going to be one of them. yes you are highly likely to be one of them. just like the flavorful character. no i rearmed myself as a matter of principle. i showed a lot of restraint when he grabbed my gun by letting go of it. my first thought was to wrestle him over it but thought that may have ended up in somebody getting shot for sure. i was on my on property and well within my rights to have a gun in my hand. he was the one that crossed the line by forcefully taking my legally possesed gun. i was not going to stand there and trust my well being to such an obviously ignorant person. cop or not. i guess you just dont understand the principle here. badge or not he had no right to come onto my private property and take my firearm. in the same circumstance i would do it again. yeah i may catch a bullet for my trouble but i wont be lead to my grave like a sheep. michael the rather be dead than gutless mopar driving madman... .

From : christopher d thompson

on tue 19 aug 2008 171648 -0400 denny wrote i have a second amendment right to keep and bear arms. i have a carry permit that has been issued to me by the state of georgia. the state of georgia issues carry permits i thought it was done at the county level. oh shit! hes in ga..... -- chris .

From : denny

nunya after this last book ya wrote i just think youre either a fucking blowhard mall ninja or resident idiot. take your pick. denny snip so your a top posting foul mouthed narrow minded person that cant disagree with someone withut resorting to name calling. at least now i know that you are incapable of discussing anything in a manner beyond a 6th grade playground mentality. ploink. michael ah... the best sound ive heard all week..... hmmm...seems youve a new best friend rabbit!g its been a while since ive had a best friend. i guess i need to re-learn that lesson about arguing with idiots. g denny .

From : nunya

snip obviously wherever you are from has much different laws that ohio. actually our laws are probaly much different. we even just had our legislature just amend them so that we can carry in state parks restaurants and most other public places. government buildings are about the only place we cant carry now. now here is the another odd thing. in most states the law makers have felt it necessary to pass extra laws against shooting police officers. it is already illegal to shoot or kill someone but they have gone that extra mile to protect their men in blue. but what they have doen is made it illegal to shoot a cop even in self defense. in many states if you were sitting on your front porch sipping a glass of sweet tea with the wife and kids and a local cop pulls up and shoots your wife and then starts in on the kids you cant legally do anything about it. if you shoot him in defense of your family you have comitted a felony. that is wrong. if a cop nuts up and goes over the edge you should be able to defend yourself and your family. we dont need blanket laws covering one specific group without reguard to special circumstances. last i heard there were only three states where it was still legal to defend yourself from a cop using deadly force and georgia was one of them. of course my information is old and my be wrong so i appreciate being corrected if someone has more current info on the subject. now dont your shift at the mall start soon i must be missing a joke. maybe its a yankee thing... michael .

From : geyser

nunya wrote snip i sure would stand for it. particularly since i had another gun inside the truck and i could go retrieve the confiscated one later. no need to murder a cop *right now* over a misunderstanding. your choice. i have made that choice on one other occasion and the afore mentioned choice on this occasion. he violated my second amendment rights in addition to my state issued carry permit rights. i have lots of firearms training. in fact i spent about a decade training cops and worked as a range officer for national swat competitions. so what youve got a short fuse. get some counseling. actually i do not have a short fuse. i have not been in any knind of fight or violent confrontation since high school. in this circumstance an ignorant cop learned a lifetime lesson. lucky him. and maybe youll kill the next one. i doubt that will happen. i handled this situation in a very appropriate manner. i didnt just grap a pistol and just start whailing on the dude. now to see where yall are on another gun related subject... what do yalll think about the harold texas school district arming the teachers and administration. that sounds like a reasonable plan since youre not a teacher or administrator there. just because i said i refused to let a cop confiscate my gun all of yall have jumped to the conclusion that i handled the situation inappropriately. sounds like yall are reading a poorly handled confrontation. in fact it was handled very well. if i had been belligerent do you think he would have actually given me my gun back sigh clearly he saw you in a new light when you produced a second gun. and i can better understand why the towns flavorful characters might be shot and killed by police after you taught barney his lesson. .

From : nunya

snip i sure would stand for it. particularly since i had another gun inside the truck and i could go retrieve the confiscated one later. no need to murder a cop *right now* over a misunderstanding. your choice. i have made that choice on one other occasion and the afore mentioned choice on this occasion. he violated my second amendment rights in addition to my state issued carry permit rights. i have lots of firearms training. in fact i spent about a decade training cops and worked as a range officer for national swat competitions. so what youve got a short fuse. get some counseling. actually i do not have a short fuse. i have not been in any knind of fight or violent confrontation since high school. in this circumstance an ignorant cop learned a lifetime lesson. lucky him. and maybe youll kill the next one. i doubt that will happen. i handled this situation in a very appropriate manner. i didnt just grap a pistol and just start whailing on the dude. now to see where yall are on another gun related subject... what do yalll think about the harold texas school district arming the teachers and administration. that sounds like a reasonable plan since youre not a teacher or administrator there. just because i said i refused to let a cop confiscate my gun all of yall have jumped to the conclusion that i handled the situation inappropriately. sounds like yall are reading a poorly handled confrontation. in fact it was handled very well. if i had been belligerent do you think he would have actually given me my gun back michael .

From : nathan w collier

while i hope for the day when a no firearms sign draws the same reaction as a whites only sign i fear that day is quite a ways away. i have a theory that when you tell me that i cannot carry you assume responsibility for my safety. if something happens to me or mine you are liable. ....im waiting for that lawsuit. -- nathan in montana http//concealedcarryforum.com http//1911talk.com http//hipowertalk.com http//glockcarry.com http//p7talk.com http//ppstalk.com .

From : denny

snip now who resorted to name calling yes but only in rebuttal and without using any foul language. its crap like youve posted that make it hard for the rest of us to cc. the anti gun nuts love the stuff youve been passing off. what have i said that gives the anti gun folks any ammo that they dont already have this is too easy. read between the lines at the attitude youre displaying. in fact they dont really have any rational legal or constitutional leg to stand on. their only real recourse in the gun/antigun arguement usually degrades to personal attacks and emotional pleas that they are on higher moral ground. the audience then has to choose which side of the fence they want to stand on. you cant look at our constitution and interpret that our forefathers intended any type of gun control. i have a second amendment right to keep and bear arms. i have a carry permit that has been issued to me by the state of georgia. the state of georgia issues carry permits i thought it was done at the county level. no local cop has a right to overrule either of those authorities because he is ignorant of the law. the real intention of the second amendment was to keep the government from being able to ride roughshod over the citizenry. it was designed to give us the ability to keep our government from becoming tyrants over its populace. so if a person lets a barney fife character disarm him without any legal reason he has bought into the big brother is out to protect us mentality and surrendered his constitutional rights without so much as a whimper. in ohio you have to obey the law officer. if he is wrong you go to his/her superior officer with your complaint. on the street you obey barney. what one generation tolerates the next generation accepts and the third generation embraces. by yalls saying that it was improper for me to buck barney when he took my gun without reason puts us just three generations away from losing our rights to own or carry guns at all. i have not hindered your ability to cc at all. i have carried concealed since my 21st birthday with only the one incident mentioned here. a cop overstepped his authority and i called him on it. nothing more and nothing less. if you think anything said in this insignificant little group has any bearing on the overall climate of the gun control controvery then you sadly overestimating the number of people that are reading and affected by these threads. but how many other places have you spewed this crap. ive read the same stuff by other posters on most gun related boards. it really does make all of us look bad. now something else to ponder since this is a open carry topic and something i tried one time with poor results. in the u.s.a. a cap and ball revolver is considered a curio and not a firearm. you can legally take a .44 caliber navy colt load it up strap it to your hip and carry it virtually anywhere. in the area im from itd get taken away from you by the first officer that saw it. nothing illegal about open carry but something about inciting public unrest...... georgia must be much different that ohio... you can even carry it into the local mall since yall seem to think the mall is significant. until the owner asks you to leave then it becomes a trespassing issue not a firearms issue there are no legal repurcussions. but tell that to barney fife. im sure not going to argue this in an open forum but i really suggest you get some legal advice before you do this. i bet you dont open carry that relic for very long in the mall. btw that mall reference is to being a mall ninja. do a google on that and youll understand why i call you that. before i turned 21 i managed a hotel and restaurant. mcdonalds bed and breakfast i had to carry large sums of cash for deposits on a regular basis along with getting change orders for making the days transactions. quite often i would leave the restaurant on friday night with over 5000 dollars in cash on friday and saturday nights. trying to lock the doors handle the money bag and get in and out of the vehicle with a shot gun became problematic. in the late 70s/early 80s the amount of cash i was handling was more than enough to get killed over. since i was not legally old enough to carry a modern handgun i purchased me a stainless cap and ball revolver. when i would leave the restaurant every night i would strap it on for the trip to the night deposit box. this just keeps getting better and better. where is theguy when you need him. hed love this kid.. i had a cop question me about this one evening and i explained that by definintion it was not a gun. he did not believe me and confiscated my cap and ball revolver. the next day i went to the jail and had a talk with the sheriff who in turn had a talk with the county lawyer. once the law was interpreted to him i was in the

From : nunya

snip now who resorted to name calling yes but only in rebuttal and without using any foul language. its crap like youve posted that make it hard for the rest of us to cc. the anti gun nuts love the stuff youve been passing off. what have i said that gives the anti gun folks any ammo that they dont already have in fact they dont really have any rational legal or constitutional leg to stand on. their only real recourse in the gun/antigun arguement usually degrades to personal attacks and emotional pleas that they are on higher moral ground. the audience then has to choose which side of the fence they want to stand on. you cant look at our constitution and interpret that our forefathers intended any type of gun control. i have a second amendment right to keep and bear arms. i have a carry permit that has been issued to me by the state of georgia. no local cop has a right to overrule either of those authorities because he is ignorant of the law. the real intention of the second amendment was to keep the government from being able to ride roughshod over the citizenry. it was designed to give us the ability to keep our government from becoming tyrants over its populace. so if a person lets a barney fife character disarm him without any legal reason he has bought into the big brother is out to protect us mentality and surrendered his constitutional rights without so much as a whimper. what one generation tolerates the next generation accepts and the third generation embraces. by yalls saying that it was improper for me to buck barney when he took my gun without reason puts us just three generations away from losing our rights to own or carry guns at all. i have not hindered your ability to cc at all. i have carried concealed since my 21st birthday with only the one incident mentioned here. a cop overstepped his authority and i called him on it. nothing more and nothing less. if you think anything said in this insignificant little group has any bearing on the overall climate of the gun control controvery then you sadly overestimating the number of people that are reading and affected by these threads. now something else to ponder since this is a open carry topic and something i tried one time with poor results. in the u.s.a. a cap and ball revolver is considered a curio and not a firearm. you can legally take a .44 caliber navy colt load it up strap it to your hip and carry it virtually anywhere. you can even carry it into the local mall since yall seem to think the mall is significant. until the owner asks you to leave then it becomes a trespassing issue not a firearms issue there are no legal repurcussions. but tell that to barney fife. before i turned 21 i managed a hotel and restaurant. i had to carry large sums of cash for deposits on a regular basis along with getting change orders for making the days transactions. quite often i would leave the restaurant on friday night with over 5000 dollars in cash on friday and saturday nights. trying to lock the doors handle the money bag and get in and out of the vehicle with a shot gun became problematic. in the late 70s/early 80s the amount of cash i was handling was more than enough to get killed over. since i was not legally old enough to carry a modern handgun i purchased me a stainless cap and ball revolver. when i would leave the restaurant every night i would strap it on for the trip to the night deposit box. i had a cop question me about this one evening and i explained that by definintion it was not a gun. he did not believe me and confiscated my cap and ball revolver. the next day i went to the jail and had a talk with the sheriff who in turn had a talk with the county lawyer. once the law was interpreted to him i was in the clear to carry my cap and ball until i turned 21 and could carry a modern centerfire pistol. while this is quite legal i can imagine that if i tried it in the city of atlanta some jumpy cop would shoot me before i had any chance to explain that i was not violating any law. herein lies the problem. cops are not really trained in the law as well as they should be. much beyond the uniform traffic code if even that they dont know much about the law and its nuances. but quite often they think they have an understanding of the law that in reality is wrong but us as citizens suffer the brunt of thier misinterpretation just because they wear a badge. at times i have been on the wrong end of this misinterpretation. on most of these occasions i let it go and cleared it up the later in front of their superior rather than push a poor position and get hurt over a misunderstanding. but on this one occasion a cop took my pistol and said i couldnt have it back. i didnt like it and made it clear that i wouldnt stand for it. i didnt snatch my back up out and brandish it at him or threaten him. i just calmly rearmed m

From : roy

nunya after this last book ya wrote i just think youre either a fucking blowhard mall ninja or resident idiot. take your pick. denny snip so your a top posting foul mouthed narrow minded person that cant disagree with someone withut resorting to name calling. now who resorted to name calling at least now i know that you are incapable of discussing anything in a manner beyond a 6th grade playground mentality. ploink. michael its crap like youve posted that make it hard for the rest of us to cc. the anti gun nuts love the stuff youve been passing off. plonk me as well. denny is correct. .

From : roy

nunya after this last book ya wrote i just think youre either a fucking blowhard mall ninja or resident idiot. take your pick. denny snip so your a top posting foul mouthed narrow minded person that cant disagree with someone withut resorting to name calling. at least now i know that you are incapable of discussing anything in a manner beyond a 6th grade playground mentality. ploink. michael ah... the best sound ive heard all week..... hmmm...seems youve a new best friend rabbit!g roy denny .

From : napalmheart

frank wrote /snip soooo... if i have to ask you to leave my place because youre carrying a gun youre going to quietly leave. right you may legally ask someone to leave your place for no reason so long as you havent opened your place for business to the public. once your place is a business open to the public you cant exclude someone because of their race sex whether they are legally carrying a firearm if they are pregnant under 5 feet tall etcetera. do do so could open you to civil and/or criminal action. of course the penalty if any for illegally excluding someone from your place of business will vary with the political makeup of the judiciary overseeing the case. can a restaurant enforce a dress code why not there are plenty of restaurants and bars that require certain standards of dress. .

From : nunya

snip but in upping the ante you did trust your wellbeing to deputy fife. no actually i was trusting my well being to the fact that i knew i was faster and that in the end i would have my day in court. not a good scenario i admit but sometimes a man has to push a bad position or compromise his principles. better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. i am not going to be the one of the sheep that gives up my rights because i live in fear of the the g-men. read the below quote. when we as a people stop believing it and living it then america will cease to be the greatest nation on earth. michael they who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. benjamin franklin .

From : geyser

nunya wrote i am trying to make a point about personal rights here. are yall saying that if a cop came onto your property and took your guns just because he had a misguided belief that he had the right to sidestep the constitution and state law yall would stand for it i sure would stand for it. particularly since i had another gun inside the truck and i could go retrieve the confiscated one later. no need to murder a cop *right now* over a misunderstanding. he violated my second amendment rights in addition to my state issued carry permit rights. i have lots of firearms training. in fact i spent about a decade training cops and worked as a range officer for national swat competitions. so what youve got a short fuse. get some counseling. in this circumstance an ignorant cop learned a lifetime lesson. lucky him. and maybe youll kill the next one. now to see where yall are on another gun related subject... what do yalll think about the harold texas school district arming the teachers and administration. that sounds like a reasonable plan since youre not a teacher or administrator there. .

From : denny

the computer martin . 222 345316 g8f3fq0vgo@1.guy.com nunya after this last book ya wrote i just think youre either a fucking blowhard mall ninja or resident idiot. take your pick. denny snip so your a top posting foul mouthed narrow minded person that cant disagree with someone withut resorting to name calling. at least now i know that you are incapable of discussing anything in a manner beyond a 6th grade playground mentality. ploink. michael ah... the best sound ive heard all week..... denny .

From : nunya

nunya after this last book ya wrote i just think youre either a fucking blowhard mall ninja or resident idiot. take your pick. denny snip so your a top posting foul mouthed narrow minded person that cant disagree with someone withut resorting to name calling. at least now i know that you are incapable of discussing anything in a manner beyond a 6th grade playground mentality. ploink. michael .

From : denny

nunya after this last book ya wrote i just think youre either a fucking blowhard mall ninja or resident idiot. take your pick. denny snip good points made here. fits in well with the training ive had here in mi. ken napalm denny & geyser i am trying to make a point about personal rights here. are yall saying that if a cop came onto your property and took your guns just because he had a misguided belief that he had the right to sidestep the constitution and state law yall would stand for it if so it is just a matter of time before it does happen to you and may be permanetly. b.t.w. the deputy in question did get an official reprimand for his actions. he violated my second amendment rights in addition to my state issued carry permit rights. i have lots of firearms training. in fact i spent about a decade training cops and worked as a range officer for national swat competitions. in none of the training i have received or given was there ever any mention of surrendering your firearms at the whim of an leo on your own property. now had i been in the commision of a crime the circumstances would have been different but i was just protecting my person on my property. had i been on public property i would have handled it differently. in this circumstance an ignorant cop learned a lifetime lesson. that some law abiding citizens are armed and not sheep. also that if you try to violate their rights they will not comply and to furthur complicate the issue they may be on a first name basis with your watch commander and the sheriff. yeah i took a risk in this circumstance but i was well within my legal rights and the cop was not. just because he had a badge does not mean he had the law on his side. when you let someone walk all over you just because they wear a uniform then you have allowed yourself to be violated and not only do you suffer but the community suffers. about three months after this happened the burglar alarm went off at my shop. i live 7 miles from work and the sheriffs office is 3 miles from the office. like in past experiences i beat the deputies to the shop. that is sad considering i was in the bed and had to get dressed grab my gun body armor keys drive across town without running any redlights unlock the gates and front door. my truck was in the parking lot with the flashers on i had the building lights on two doors open and was clearing the building when the first deputies came through the door. the first two admonished me for entering my own building without waiting for them and asked me to put down my weapons. before we could discuss it further a third officer thier watch commander arrived on the scene and hollered through the door sherrifs department! dont shoot me michael! then walked on in. i said howdy do then told him that the first two officers and i were just discussing whether or not i was going to hand over my guns again. he then spent a few minutes explaining to them that a business owner has every right to carry a gun on his own property especially when there was every reason to suspect a burglar on the premises. that once they verify his identity they cannot take his guns. most cops just assume that they are the only people qualified to carry a gun they just dont consider the facts and actual laws. what was funny in this situation was after we finished clearing the building the watch commander who happened to be on the local swat team pulled his new counter sniper rifle out to the trunk to let me play with it. i had to clear it because it was loaded. the other two deputies kinda freaked. they should have realized i was o.k. by then because they had survived the ugly looking laser sighted black gun i was carrying as a primary when they entered my building. next i let him check out my laser sighted m11 and then i played with his new county issued flat top m16. we all chatted about firearms and the good old days when i used to be a free lance tactical firearms trainer for leos before all that got brought under state control. now to see where yall are on another gun related subject... what do yalll think about the harold texas school district arming the teachers and administration. i saw where some school advocate was pitching a fit saying only trained security guards should carry guns at schools. at the columbine incident the trained security gurad was the first person shot... michael the likes to play the devils advocate occassionally mopar freak .

From : frank

on aug 18 1202 am tom lawrence tlawren...@earthlink.not wrote your place is a business open to the public you cant exclude someone because of their race sex whether they are legally carrying a firearm if they are pregnant under 5 feet tall etcetera. wrong. depending on the state one is either immediately guilty of trespassing is a business has a posted no firearms sign as in texas or one is guilty of trespassing if asked by management to leave and they refuse as in pennsylvania. carrying a firearm isnt a protected class as is race sex etc. do do so could open you to civil and/or criminal action. look on any of the open carry even concealed carry sites and look at all the posts of was asked to leave insert business here. no ones ever filed a lawsuit no ones ever pressed charges though those who either argued or refused the order to leave were sometimes charged. if you disagree show me one case of a business being either sued or charged because they excluded a person carrying a firearm. while i hope for the day when a no firearms sign draws the same reaction as a whites only sign i fear that day is quite a ways away. about 45 years ago when i was good gun hating big government loving liberal i posed the question to my boss at a deli i worked at and that was how he explained it to me. i had so much respect for that tough old guy that stood for everything i was against that i didnt question it much. i realized later that his world view was much more correct than mine at the time which just cemented the idea even further after my reformation. now im that old guy but not nearly as tough. i guess you can teach an old dog new tricks. to think i could have banned guns and probably have lost a lot of business as a result in my own establishments! .

From : denny

snipped a bunch of stuff..... clue... michael dont worry folks. the local mall is completely safe as long as michael is near........ denny .