Like a fool, I tried to turn the distributor on a '99 360 to stop pinging

From : roy batty

Q: 1999 ram 1500 van 5.9l engine with a/c after basically two years of driving around at less than half throttle to avoid detonation quite severe on hills and downright rattling when it downshifts going up a hill as well as attempting various fixes to try and stop it which included the following - new plugs/wires - premium fuel for the last 2 years - low temp thermostat - fuel injector cleaner - engine analysis computer last month shows no codes i finally thought well its an 8 year old engine maybe the timings just drifted out a bit so i took the doghouse off to get at the engine scratched a fine mark on the block for the distributor position before i started loosened the distributor adjustment bolt a bit started it up got it to operating temp and took off down the road. once i got to an empty back road i put the throttle down to the point where it starts knocking quite badly and then reached down and turned the distributor very slowly one direction and then another hoping that i would retard the spark timing to the point that it would stop. it didnt seem to make any difference. i could turn it to the point that the engine quit running in either direction but the knocking was still there under moderate power. i could only make it worse. i couldnt find any point that seemed to lessen it or make it go away. after maybe 30 seconds of this i gave up and set the distributor back to where it was before i started on the mark id made before loosening it. all seemed well i took the van on a short 15 mile trip later in the day driving as i had for the last two years with very little throttle and the engine behaved okay. today i went to drive somewhere and when i got on the back road the engine started to make some very odd sounds almost like a rock being shaken in a steel can. detonation was still there if i put the throttle down. i aborted the trip and drove it home very gingerly hardly putting in any throttle at all. its got me quite worried. then i looked up an old post i made in this group back in 2003 where a respondent actually warned never to do the very thing i did http//tinyurl.com/25e5ms as the piston come up on its compression stroke the computer uses some other sensor inputs again intake temp. engine temp. rpm and throttle position to figure out when to fire off the spark plug. yes even though theres a distributor the exact timing of the spark is controlled by the computer so dont go messing with the position of the distributor trying to time the engine . this is the electronic equivalent of the old centrifugal and vacuum advance systems on non-electronic distributors. feeling a bit of a fool at the moment - whats the worst damage i could have done anyway made the timing worse certainly. i wonder if a new distributor cap and rotor is all it needs .

Replies:

From : tom lawrence

its got me quite worried. then i looked up an old post i made in this group back in 2003 where a respondent actually warned never to do the very thing i did http//tinyurl.com/25e5ms i thought that writing looked a bit familiar feeling a bit of a fool at the moment - whats the worst damage i could have done anyway made the timing worse certainly. probably no real damage. id pull the plugs and make sure you didnt blow one apart with the detonation. id re-do the plug wire routing according to the tsb published on that check dodgeram.org for it - if you cant find it yell. id also suspect the intake plenum gasket as the most likely cause of your pinging problem. again this has been written about many times - you should be able to pull up pages and pages of info. on it with a quick search - but in a nutshell the gasket between the belly pan and actual intake manifold leaks allowing the intake to suck in engine oil which makes its way to the cylinders becomes carbon deposits which create hot spots in the combustion chamber and cause pre-ignition. the fix is to remove the intake manifold remove the bellypan and apply one of several fixes ranging from replacing the gasket with rtv replacing the steel bellypan with an aluminum one because its the differential rate of expansion between the stock steel bellypan and aluminum manifold that eventually causes the stock gasket to fail or installing a kit from hughes engines that also addresses the problem. obviously when the manifold is out it should be cleaned thoroughly with carb/tb cleaner to get the oil out from inside it. once re-assembled run a couple of cans of mopar combustion chamber cleaner through the engine to clean out the carbon deposits. finally put in a new set of plugs because the cc cleaner treatment fouls the plugs pretty well. .

From : roy batty

on apr 20 233 pm tom lawrence tnloaswpraemnmcie...@earthlink.net wrote its got me quite worried. then i looked up an old post i made in this group back in 2003 where a respondent actually warned never to do the very thing i did http//tinyurl.com/25e5ms i thought that writing looked a bit familiar feeling a bit of a fool at the moment - whats the worst damage i could have done anyway made the timing worse certainly. probably no real damage. id pull the plugs and make sure you didnt blow one apart with the detonation. id re-do the plug wire routing according to the tsb published on that check dodgeram.org for it - if you cant find it yell. id also suspect the intake plenum gasket as the most likely cause of your pinging problem. again this has been written about many times - you should be able to pull up pages and pages of info. on it with a quick search - but in a nutshell the gasket between the belly pan and actual intake manifold leaks allowing the intake to suck in engine oil which makes its way to the cylinders becomes carbon deposits which create hot spots in the combustion chamber and cause pre-ignition. the fix is to remove the intake manifold remove the bellypan and apply one of several fixes ranging from replacing the gasket with rtv replacing the steel bellypan with an aluminum one because its the differential rate of expansion between the stock steel bellypan and aluminum manifold that eventually causes the stock gasket to fail or installing a kit from hughes engines that also addresses the problem. obviously when the manifold is out it should be cleaned thoroughly with carb/tb cleaner to get the oil out from inside it. once re-assembled run a couple of cans of mopar combustion chamber cleaner through the engine to clean out the carbon deposits. finally put in a new set of plugs because the cc cleaner treatment fouls the plugs pretty well. that does sound like a definite possibility as i have noticed an increase in oil consumption in the last several oil changes. but ive spotted no smoke out the tailpipe and no smell of oil burning. maybe at a slow rate of leak this would not be detectable if i have knocked a plugs electrode center or outer off and its rattling around in there the sound i hear now could certainly be that i am looking at pulling the heads off to get it i guess. i would think itd have gone out the exhaust port though if it was small enough. if the fragments not small however i wonder if it could have jammed an exhaust valve open one other thing i have noticed when taking the rig out today is that it is running very poorly - if you put the throttle down very much past idle it bogs as if its starving for fuel. i dont see how a jammed valve could do that just in one cylinder. some other issue happening by coincidence thanks a bunch for your clues i have downloaded all the tsbs related to the plug wire re-route and the plenum chamber gasket - both are repairs that i should have no trouble doing myself. youve been very helpful tom i will try to get less stupid as time goes on! .

From : beekeep

adversity poverty hardship and challenges to succeed. these are the superior beings. not the ones who sit back and accept the status quo because thats the way its always been done because its easier to blame someone else than accept responsibility for ones own failures or just that theyre too lazy to make any effort. and our society has made it easier by pandering to these voting slugs by providing social welfare programs giveaways and entitlements. if you cant understand the concept of inferior/superior beings you really are one of the stupid ones. history is full of them. its all written down in books. you have heard of books right no you must be able to read although your ability to write is questionable. read. study. improve yourself. stop being inferior. its the easy way out. sigh ........... . 222 333607 462946ed.391045687@usenet.radix.net on 20 apr 2007 100649 -0700 roy batty robert.westbrook@gmail.com wrote 1999 ram 1500 van 5.9l engine with a/c after basically two years of driving around at less than half throttle to avoid detonation quite severe on hills and downright rattling when it downshifts going up a hill as well as attempting various fixes to try and stop it which included the following - new plugs/wires - premium fuel for the last 2 years - low temp thermostat - fuel injector cleaner - engine analysis computer last month shows no codes i finally thought well its an 8 year old engine maybe the timings just drifted out a bit so i took the doghouse off to get at the engine scratched a fine mark on the block for the distributor position before i started loosened the distributor adjustment bolt a bit started it up got it to operating temp and took off down the road. once i got to an empty back road i put the throttle down to the point where it starts knocking quite badly and then reached down and turned the distributor very slowly one direction and then another hoping that i would retard the spark timing to the point that it would stop. it didnt seem to make any difference. i could turn it to the point that the engine quit running in either direction but the knocking was still there under moderate power. i could only make it worse. i couldnt find any point that seemed to lessen it or make it go away. after maybe 30 seconds of this i gave up and set the distributor back to where it was before i started on the mark id made before loosening it. all seemed well i took the van on a short 15 mile trip later in the day driving as i had for the last two years with very little throttle and the engine behaved okay. today i went to drive somewhere and when i got on the back road the engine started to make some very odd sounds almost like a rock being shaken in a steel can. detonation was still there if i put the throttle down. i aborted the trip and drove it home very gingerly hardly putting in any throttle at all. its got me quite worried. then i looked up an old post i made in this group back in 2003 where a respondent actually warned never to do the very thing i did http//tinyurl.com/25e5ms as the piston come up on its compression stroke the computer uses some other sensor inputs again intake temp. engine temp. rpm and throttle position to figure out when to fire off the spark plug. yes even though theres a distributor the exact timing of the spark is controlled by the computer so dont go messing with the position of the distributor trying to time the engine . this is the electronic equivalent of the old centrifugal and vacuum advance systems on non-electronic distributors. feeling a bit of a fool at the moment - whats the worst damage i could have done anyway made the timing worse certainly. i wonder if a new distributor cap and rotor is all it needs yep the distributor has very little to do with the timing. when you change the plugs try autolite 3923. they are cheap availible at wally world and cured the pinging in my 5.2. an easy check for the intake plenum gasket being bad is to see if you have a vacunm at the oil fill when the engine is runnig. beekeep .

From : beekeep

on 20 apr 2007 125208 -0700 roy batty robert.westbrook@gmail.com wrote on apr 20 233 pm tom lawrence tnloaswpraemnmcie...@earthlink.net wrote its got me quite worried. then i looked up an old post i made in this group back in 2003 where a respondent actually warned never to do the very thing i did http//tinyurl.com/25e5ms i thought that writing looked a bit familiar feeling a bit of a fool at the moment - whats the worst damage i could have done anyway made the timing worse certainly. probably no real damage. id pull the plugs and make sure you didnt blow one apart with the detonation. id re-do the plug wire routing according to the tsb published on that check dodgeram.org for it - if you cant find it yell. id also suspect the intake plenum gasket as the most likely cause of your pinging problem. again this has been written about many times - you should be able to pull up pages and pages of info. on it with a quick search - but in a nutshell the gasket between the belly pan and actual intake manifold leaks allowing the intake to suck in engine oil which makes its way to the cylinders becomes carbon deposits which create hot spots in the combustion chamber and cause pre-ignition. the fix is to remove the intake manifold remove the bellypan and apply one of several fixes ranging from replacing the gasket with rtv replacing the steel bellypan with an aluminum one because its the differential rate of expansion between the stock steel bellypan and aluminum manifold that eventually causes the stock gasket to fail or installing a kit from hughes engines that also addresses the problem. obviously when the manifold is out it should be cleaned thoroughly with carb/tb cleaner to get the oil out from inside it. once re-assembled run a couple of cans of mopar combustion chamber cleaner through the engine to clean out the carbon deposits. finally put in a new set of plugs because the cc cleaner treatment fouls the plugs pretty well. that does sound like a definite possibility as i have noticed an increase in oil consumption in the last several oil changes. but ive spotted no smoke out the tailpipe and no smell of oil burning. maybe at a slow rate of leak this would not be detectable if i have knocked a plugs electrode center or outer off and its rattling around in there the sound i hear now could certainly be that i am looking at pulling the heads off to get it i guess. i would think itd have gone out the exhaust port though if it was small enough. if the fragments not small however i wonder if it could have jammed an exhaust valve open one other thing i have noticed when taking the rig out today is that it is running very poorly - if you put the throttle down very much past idle it bogs as if its starving for fuel. i dont see how a jammed valve could do that just in one cylinder. some other issue happening by coincidence thanks a bunch for your clues i have downloaded all the tsbs related to the plug wire re-route and the plenum chamber gasket - both are repairs that i should have no trouble doing myself. youve been very helpful tom i will try to get less stupid as time goes on! be careful when putting the two side gaskets of the intake manifold on. you can put them upside down which leads to problems later. i found out the hard way. beekeep .