K&N filter debate

From : kevin

Q: on a trip 8 towing... at least you have the extra power and torque with the hemi.. yeah i had a 2001 ram 1500 with a 360. thats about what i got too. my trailers too heavy and burnt the transmission up a coupla times. i like the hemi but with the way gas prices are going i wish i had gotton the ho. until i come up on a ford then im happy i got the hemi. . 222 281450 0mrgc.6239$co3.362041@20.bellglobal.com i dont want to reopen a can of work again but i dont remenber the whole argument against k&n filters. if you have a properly maintened k&n filter can it cause any damage to the engine. i have spoke to my dealer and thaey have no problem with me installing it and neither does dc. i am looking for opinions for both sides of the fench not an argument over k&n. kevin .

Replies:

From : sascheffey

if you didnt want to open a can of worms then why didnt you just do a google search to try and find your answer .

From : tbone

k$n filters allow much more dirt into the engine. that is complete bullshit. and you wonder why most everybody wants to argue with you. 1% is not much of anything so that statement is complete bullshit. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : redneck tookover hell

that is complete bullshit. and you wonder why most everybody wants to argue with you. denny nope doesnt have anything to do with it. its because boners a fucking idiot pure and simple politics the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich. .

From : redneck tookover hell

but hey its all complete bullshit right i think i hear water running. boners either going to show you how water runs throught a k$n or hes getting ready to spin in his mudhole politics the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich. .

From : tbone

there are many in here that think the possible 1% increase in total contaminants will cause massive damage to your engine in short order. since this filter is still well within the manufacturers specifications this belief is a complete load of crap. there are some that claim tremendous performance gains while others claim that they are a complete waste of money. i have one and have seen no such massive gains but the fact that my truck has had that same filter for 7 years with no other expense except for 1 recharge kit that i bought at the same time as the filter. this has saved me $$$$$ over the cost of disposable paper ones so once again neither belief seems completely valid. in short it will not hurt your engine dont expect massive performance gains and if you keep the truck long term it could save you money. the choice is up to you. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving i dont want to reopen a can of work again but i dont remenber the whole argument against k&n filters. if you have a properly maintened k&n filter can it cause any damage to the engine. i have spoke to my dealer and thaey have no problem with me installing it and neither does dc. i am looking for opinions for both sides of the fench not an argument over k&n. kevin .

From : steve barker

k$n filters allow much more dirt into the engine. not hardly worth it since there is no benefit to using them. -- steve ========= i dont want to reopen a can of work again but i dont remenber the whole argument against k&n filters. if you have a properly maintened k&n filter can it cause any damage to the engine. i have spoke to my dealer and thaey have no problem with me installing it and neither does dc. i am looking for opinions for both sides of the fench not an argument over k&n. kevin .

From : tbone

k$n filters allow much more dirt into the engine. that is complete bullshit. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving i dont want to reopen a can of work again but i dont remenber the whole argument against k&n filters. if you have a properly maintened k&n filter can it cause any damage to the engine. i have spoke to my dealer and thaey have no problem with me installing it and neither does dc. i am looking for opinions for both sides of the fench not an argument over k&n. kevin .

From : steve barker

its simple to figger. bigger holes = better airflow = bigger pieces of shit through the filter. its not bullshit. hell cummins wont even warranty an engine with one of these snake oil filters on it. you must have wasted your own money on one or you wouldnt defend them. its funny the people who are given k$n filters as a gift dont see a damn bit of difference in anything. cause there is none. the people who get sucked in and waste their own money all of a sudden have 50 more horsepower and 4 mpg better. that my son is the bull shit part. learn it accept it live it. you got ripped off period. -- steve ========= k$n filters allow much more dirt into the engine. that is complete bullshit. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving i dont want to reopen a can of work again but i dont remenber the whole argument against k&n filters. if you have a properly maintened k&n filter can it cause any damage to the engine. i have spoke to my dealer and thaey have no problem with me installing it and neither does dc. i am looking for opinions for both sides of the fench not an argument over k&n. kevin .

From : roy

k$n filters allow much more dirt into the engine. that is complete bullshit. you are wrong tom. i dont know or care how much but cummins would not warranty engines a while ago because of the dirt factor that appeared with the use of k$n. roy if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving i dont want to reopen a can of work again but i dont remenber the whole argument against k&n filters. if you have a properly maintened k&n filter can it cause any damage to the engine. i have spoke to my dealer and thaey have no problem with me installing it and neither does dc. i am looking for opinions for both sides of the fench not an argument over k&n. kevin .

From : azwiley1

you need to pop into the alt.autos.4x4.chevy-trucks group and red what has come back from gm about the oh so wonderful k&n filter. gm has come back and proven that a k&n filter on at the h2 as i recall has caused a lot of engine trouble and problems. i dont want to reopen a can of work again but i dont remenber the whole argument against k&n filters. if you have a properly maintened k&n filter can it cause any damage to the engine. i have spoke to my dealer and thaey have no problem with me installing it and neither does dc. i am looking for opinions for both sides of the fench not an argument over k&n. kevin .

From : moparman

you need to pop into the alt.autos.4x4.chevy-trucks group and red what has come back from gm about the oh so wonderful k&n filter. gm has come back and proven that a k&n filter on at the h2 as i recall has caused a lot of engine trouble and problems. i dont want to reopen a can of work again but i dont remenber the whole argument against k&n filters. if you have a properly maintened k&n filter can it cause any damage to the engine. i have spoke to my dealer and thaey have no problem with me installing it and neither does dc. i am looking for opinions for both sides of the fench not an argument over k&n. kevin on my last dodge truck i ran a k&n for maybe 10k it started running crappy so i pulled it off and checked inside the tb. it was all black and oily. i spent 4 hours cleaning that crap up and went back to a paper filter. the cotton green filter is supose to better than paper but i havent found one to try yet. no k&n in my hemi. -- moparman----remove clothes to reply... scud coordinates latitude 32.61208 degrees north longitude 96.92995 degrees west depth 17.35 inches .

From : joe

kevin ecmss@cyberbeach.com wrote in i dont want to reopen a can of work again but i dont remenber the whole argument against k&n filters. if you have a properly maintened k&n filter can it cause any damage to the engine. i have spoke to my dealer and thaey have no problem with me installing it and neither does dc. i am looking for opinions for both sides of the fench not an argument over k&n. kevin been running one in my mustang for years with no problems at all. maf looks great tb looks great etc. 143000 miles and still going strong. havent tuned up the r/t yet. joe black 03 dakota 5.9 r/t cc calypso green 93 mustang 5.0 lx hatch with a few goodies .

From : kevin

ok guys i was just looking for yes/no and benifical or not answers. i did not want to stir up what i have. i relize that everybody has an opinion and preference on their own rig. i am not looking for major hp gains or gpm gians just wanted honest opinion/real life on the k&ns. i am kind of new here and dont want to be pissing anybody off. kevin you need to pop into the alt.autos.4x4.chevy-trucks group and red what has come back from gm about the oh so wonderful k&n filter. gm has come back and proven that a k&n filter on at the h2 as i recall has caused a lot of engine trouble and problems. i dont want to reopen a can of work again but i dont remenber the whole argument against k&n filters. if you have a properly maintened k&n filter can it cause any damage to the engine. i have spoke to my dealer and thaey have no problem with me installing it and neither does dc. i am looking for opinions for both sides of the fench not an argument over k&n. kevin on my last dodge truck i ran a k&n for maybe 10k it started running crappy so i pulled it off and checked inside the tb. it was all black and oily. i spent 4 hours cleaning that crap up and went back to a paper filter. the cotton green filter is supose to better than paper but i havent found one to try yet. no k&n in my hemi. -- moparman----remove clothes to reply... scud coordinates latitude 32.61208 degrees north longitude 96.92995 degrees west depth 17.35 inches .

From : denny

k$n filters allow much more dirt into the engine. that is complete bullshit. and you wonder why most everybody wants to argue with you. denny -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving i dont want to reopen a can of work again but i dont remenber the whole argument against k&n filters. if you have a properly maintened k&n filter can it cause any damage to the engine. i have spoke to my dealer and thaey have no problem with me installing it and neither does dc. i am looking for opinions for both sides of the fench not an argument over k&n. kevin .

From : steve barker

oh kevin i dont think youre pissing anyone off. the people who were sucked in are pissed at themselves. also it not opinion its a fact. k$ns ruin engines. -- steve barker ========= ok guys i was just looking for yes/no and benifical or not answers. i did not want to stir up what i have. i relize that everybody has an opinion and preference on their own rig. i am not looking for major hp gains or gpm gians just wanted honest opinion/real life on the k&ns. i am kind of new here and dont want to be pissing anybody off. kevin you need to pop into the alt.autos.4x4.chevy-trucks group and red what has come back from gm about the oh so wonderful k&n filter. gm has come back and proven that a k&n filter on at the h2 as i recall has caused a lot of engine trouble and problems. i dont want to reopen a can of work again but i dont remenber the whole argument against k&n filters. if you have a properly maintened k&n filter can it cause any damage to the engine. i have spoke to my dealer and thaey have no problem with me installing it and neither does dc. i am looking for opinions for both sides of the fench not an argument over k&n. kevin on my last dodge truck i ran a k&n for maybe 10k it started running crappy so i pulled it off and checked inside the tb. it was all black and oily. i spent 4 hours cleaning that crap up and went back to a paper filter. the cotton green filter is supose to better than paper but i havent found one to try yet. no k&n in my hemi. -- moparman----remove clothes to reply... scud coordinates latitude 32.61208 degrees north longitude 96.92995 degrees west depth 17.35 inches .

From : steve barker

and probably never in dirty conditions. -- steve ========= kevin ecmss@cyberbeach.com wrote in i dont want to reopen a can of work again but i dont remenber the whole argument against k&n filters. if you have a properly maintened k&n filter can it cause any damage to the engine. i have spoke to my dealer and thaey have no problem with me installing it and neither does dc. i am looking for opinions for both sides of the fench not an argument over k&n. kevin been running one in my mustang for years with no problems at all. maf looks great tb looks great etc. 143000 miles and still going strong. havent tuned up the r/t yet. joe black 03 dakota 5.9 r/t cc calypso green 93 mustang 5.0 lx hatch with a few goodies .

From : gf

i have used k&n air filters in all of my 3 cummins.they have saved me money.i cant say for sure i have had more poweri cant say for sure i get better gas mileageabout them destroy ing enginesi would not know. i sold the old one 93with 700000 km on it.the guy is still driving it.there have been lots of gravel and off road tripshunting.so i quess it comes down to they have saved me money. and probably never in dirty conditions. -- steve ========= kevin ecmss@cyberbeach.com wrote in i dont want to reopen a can of work again but i dont remenber the whole argument against k&n filters. if you have a properly maintened k&n filter can it cause any damage to the engine. i have spoke to my dealer and thaey have no problem with me installing it and neither does dc. i am looking for opinions for both sides of the fench not an argument over k&n. kevin been running one in my mustang for years with no problems at all. maf looks great tb looks great etc. 143000 miles and still going strong. havent tuned up the r/t yet. joe black 03 dakota 5.9 r/t cc calypso green 93 mustang 5.0 lx hatch with a few goodies .

From : max340

k$n filters allow much more dirt into the engine. that is complete bullshit. once again you fail by using general statements. the k&n lets 50% more dirt in. that can be called much by any standard. however the real picture is 3% versus 2% by a standard paper filter. there are as youve noted no real power gains by using a k&n the paper air filter will almost always be able to flow the cfm needed by the engine. swapping in a k&n filter alone will not give the engine more air even if it can flow more that the stock paper. a k&n filter will gradually get plugged even if you wash it. it is impossible to get all the dirt back out. at the time of the first washing its likely already less efficient than a paper filter at letting air through. as successive washings occur the k&n will get more plugged up. it is true that a k&n can be washed rather than replaced. however washing takes time and special oil. then the filter must be dry before oiling it. if your time is worth $30 an hour youve spent more on washing the k&n than what it would cost in replacing a paper element. in a very real sense a k&n filter brings back to the reason why oil bath filters were replaced to begin with down time for maintenance. but hey its all complete bullshit right max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : azwiley1

again look at the postings about the use of the k&n filter on gm engines in the ng that i provided you. i think that would be a definitive no on using them if you have one of the big three saying they cause problems. ok guys i was just looking for yes/no and benifical or not answers. i did not want to stir up what i have. i relize that everybody has an opinion and preference on their own rig. i am not looking for major hp gains or gpm gians just wanted honest opinion/real life on the k&ns. i am kind of new here and dont want to be pissing anybody off. kevin you need to pop into the alt.autos.4x4.chevy-trucks group and red what has come back from gm about the oh so wonderful k&n filter. gm has come back and proven that a k&n filter on at the h2 as i recall has caused a lot of engine trouble and problems. i dont want to reopen a can of work again but i dont remenber the whole argument against k&n filters. if you have a properly maintened k&n filter can it cause any damage to the engine. i have spoke to my dealer and thaey have no problem with me installing it and neither does dc. i am looking for opinions for both sides of the fench not an argument over k&n. kevin on my last dodge truck i ran a k&n for maybe 10k it started running crappy so i pulled it off and checked inside the tb. it was all black and oily. i spent 4 hours cleaning that crap up and went back to a paper filter. the cotton green filter is supose to better than paper but i havent found one to try yet. no k&n in my hemi. -- moparman----remove clothes to reply... scud coordinates latitude 32.61208 degrees north longitude 96.92995 degrees west depth 17.35 inches .

From : max340

i am kind of new here and dont want to be pissing anybody off. the overall opinion is that k&n isnt worth the time as no real benefits are to be had. obviously at least two engine manufacturers dont like the filter and one voids the warranty when its used. the only thing stirred up is tbone and hell argue anything since hes looking for proof that he exists. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : tbone

its simple to figger. bigger holes = better airflow = bigger pieces of shit through the filter. if you actually had an idea what you were talking about you would know that bigger holes has nothing to do with it. it achieves better air flow through more uniform airflow paths within the material. its not bullshit. yes it is. perhaps you should do a micron of research before making your statements. hell cummins wont even warranty an engine with one of these snake oil filters on it. really care to back that up you must have wasted your own money on one or you wouldnt defend them. yes i did and 90000 miles later the engine still runs fine and the throttle body is still clean. its funny the people who are given k$n filters as a gift dont see a damn bit of difference in anything. cause there is none. never claimed that there was one. the people who get sucked in and waste their own money all of a sudden have 50 more horsepower and 4 mpg better. that my son is the bull shit part. i also said that there were no significant performance improvements but the huge amount of added dirt is a load of crap. learn it accept it live it. you got ripped off period. i do find it funny that someone can make the claim that another was ripped off without a single fact to back it up. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

k$n filters allow much more dirt into the engine. that is complete bullshit. you are wrong tom. lets see the test results showing the increased wear caused by a k$n filter. without that it is only your opinion. i dont know or care how much but cummins would not warranty engines a while ago because of the dirt factor that appeared with the use of k$n. and why did they suddenly begin to warrantee them again could it be that like so many of you they made this claim and when told to back it up they simply could not do it perhaps it was a design flaw that the k$n brought to light and they fixed it i dont know and they make no mention of k$n on their web site either. if it were so bad and did cause damage and they could prove it they should recommend not using them on their web site and it simply is not there. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

oh kevin i dont think youre pissing anyone off. the people who were sucked in are pissed at themselves. also it not opinion its a fact. k$ns ruin engines. lol yea like your bigger holes theory. if this were the fact like you claim then nobody would warranty an engine that used it and the manufacturers would not have used them as factory performance parts on a few of their cars. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : max340

if you actually had an idea what you were talking about you would know that bigger holes has nothing to do with it. it achieves better air flow through more uniform airflow paths within the material. um no. it achieves more airflow by having a larger micron rating on the holes through the filter. yes it is. perhaps you should do a micron of research before making your statements. speaking of microns....... the k&n has more of them going through its holes. hell cummins wont even warranty an engine with one of these snake oil filters on it. really care to back that up lol i also said that there were no significant performance improvements but the huge amount of added dirt is a load of crap. its 50% more. if you drive in a dusty environment thats a huge difference. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : tbone

i am kind of new here and dont want to be pissing anybody off. the overall opinion is that k&n isnt worth the time as no real benefits are to be had. obviously at least two engine manufacturers dont like the filter and one voids the warranty when its used. which one the only thing stirred up is tbone and hell argue anything since hes looking for proof that he exists. lol -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : max340

and why did they suddenly begin to warrantee them again they didnt suddenly begin warrantying again. simply put if you use a k&n on a cummins you risk your warranty. could it be that like so many of you they made this claim and when told to back it up they simply could not do it hardly. any excess oil and dirt coming from the k&n could have a detrimental effect on the turbo to name one possiblity. if it were so bad and did cause damage and they could prove it they should recommend not using them on their web site and it simply is not there. a mention on a website isnt proof of anything. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : tbone

your not going to piss anyone off just by asking a question although you may get some wised ass responses. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving ok guys i was just looking for yes/no and benifical or not answers. i did not want to stir up what i have. i relize that everybody has an opinion and preference on their own rig. i am not looking for major hp gains or gpm gians just wanted honest opinion/real life on the k&ns. i am kind of new here and dont want to be pissing anybody off. kevin you need to pop into the alt.autos.4x4.chevy-trucks group and red what has come back from gm about the oh so wonderful k&n filter. gm has come back and proven that a k&n filter on at the h2 as i recall has caused a lot of engine trouble and problems. i dont want to reopen a can of work again but i dont remenber the whole argument against k&n filters. if you have a properly maintened k&n filter can it cause any damage to the engine. i have spoke to my dealer and thaey have no problem with me installing it and neither does dc. i am looking for opinions for both sides of the fench not an argument over k&n. kevin on my last dodge truck i ran a k&n for maybe 10k it started running crappy so i pulled it off and checked inside the tb. it was all black and oily. i spent 4 hours cleaning that crap up and went back to a paper filter. the cotton green filter is supose to better than paper but i havent found one to try yet. no k&n in my hemi. -- moparman----remove clothes to reply... scud coordinates latitude 32.61208 degrees north longitude 96.92995 degrees west depth 17.35 inches .

From : bdk

ecmss@cyberbeach.com says... ok guys i was just looking for yes/no and benifical or not answers. i did not want to stir up what i have. i relize that everybody has an opinion and preference on their own rig. i am not looking for major hp gains or gpm gians just wanted honest opinion/real life on the k&ns. i am kind of new here and dont want to be pissing anybody off. kevin you need to pop into the alt.autos.4x4.chevy-trucks group and red what has come back from gm about the oh so wonderful k&n filter. gm has come back and proven that a k&n filter on at the h2 as i recall has caused a lot of engine trouble and problems. i dont want to reopen a can of work again but i dont remenber the whole argument against k&n filters. if you have a properly maintened k&n filter can it cause any damage to the engine. i have spoke to my dealer and thaey have no problem with me installing it and neither does dc. i am looking for opinions for both sides of the fench not an argument over k&n. kevin on my last dodge truck i ran a k&n for maybe 10k it started running crappy so i pulled it off and checked inside the tb. it was all black and oily. i spent 4 hours cleaning that crap up and went back to a paper filter. the cotton green filter is supose to better than paper but i havent found one to try yet. no k&n in my hemi. -- moparman----remove clothes to reply... scud coordinates latitude 32.61208 degrees north longitude 96.92995 degrees west depth 17.35 inches all i can say about this is my old 88 4.3 blazer with almost 200k miles on it hasnt had any problems with the k&n that i put on it in 1990 or so. it leaks oil but its not burning any except on cold start up as the valve seals are probably not in too good condition. a friend bought it from me in 93 with 48k on it. its four blocks away i see it all the time. neither has any other vehicle i owned or anyones i know about. my old 79 trans am is still running around the 7 years i had a k&n on it doesnt seem to have hurt it any. the way it looks now the engine will outlive the car.. i may put one in my hemi may not but im not going to worry about it hurting anything. bdk .

From : tbone

and why did they suddenly begin to warrantee them again they didnt suddenly begin warrantying again. simply put if you use a k&n on a cummins you risk your warranty. show me where that is stated cummins does claim that if any performance part is found to be the cause of an engine failure that your warranty is at risk but that would be difficult to prove and they dont mention k$n specifically. could it be that like so many of you they made this claim and when told to back it up they simply could not do it hardly. any excess oil and dirt coming from the k&n could have a detrimental effect on the turbo to name one possiblity. if the filter is oiled properly there will be no excess oil and since it removes 97% of the dirt where is this excess dirt going to come from btw if the design of the turbo is so critical that a 1% increase can destroy it then it doesnt belong on a motor vehicle. if it were so bad and did cause damage and they could prove it they should recommend not using them on their web site and it simply is not there. a mention on a website isnt proof of anything. if they are as dangerous as some of you like to claim it would be a disservice to their customers not to place a warning on their web site. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : hushyourmouth

thats where you screwed up--coming here for honest anything. kevin wrote that kind of search which i have used most often turns up opinions on sponsed links and sites i wanted an honest users on non users opinion on th k&n. kevin if you didnt want to open a can of worms then why didnt you just do a google search to try and find your answer .

From : milesh

tbone wrote lol do you really think that they art rebuilding them because of the air filter oh geez. no thats not the reason. you are trying to suggest that whats good for a racer must be good for a consumer. that is absurd logic. .

From : milesh

tbone wrote so your most recent test was 12 years ago and the one before that was 21 lol!!!! do you think that they were unable to make any changes in 12 years they are using decades old technology. their specifications have not changed over the years. well except they removed specifications that showed the k&n worse than a paper. .

From : tbone

k$n filters allow much more dirt into the engine. that is complete bullshit. once again you fail by using general statements. the k&n lets 50% more dirt in. that can be called much by any standard. and you failed by using fuzzy math 3% - 2% = 1% total volume and that is the truth. your fuzzy math example makes it sound huge but in reality 50% more of just about nothing is still just about nothing. however the real picture is 3% versus 2% by a standard paper filter. the fact that you just claimed 3% vs 2% as the real picture shows that even you know that the 50% bs is just bs. there are as youve noted no real power gains by using a k&n correct but i put it on the truck well before break-in so i have nothing to compare it to but with modern fuel injected vehicles i doubt that an air filter would cause significant improvements by itself. the paper air filter will almost always be able to flow the cfm needed by the engine. swapping in a k&n filter alone will not give the engine more air even if it can flow more that the stock paper. actually yes it will and that is simple physics. a k&n filter will gradually get plugged even if you wash it. it is impossible to get all the dirt back out. at the time of the first washing its likely already less efficient than a paper filter at letting air through. really can you back this up of course not. yes some dirt will always be trapped within the filter but you did notice that this is an oiled filter right the oil helps trap most of the dirt and when it is washed out the dirt goes with it. now like you said some dirt will still remain but when i cleaned mine the filter was white with no visible dirt and if you cant even see it there is not enough dirt left to substantially block flow. as successive washings occur the k&n will get more plugged up. while true that does not have to be done very often and the vehicle will probably wear out before the filter. it is true that a k&n can be washed rather than replaced. however washing takes time and special oil. then the filter must be dry before oiling it. if your time is worth $30 an hour youve spent more on washing the k&n than what it would cost in replacing a paper element. lol only if you are an idiot. i cant speak for you but when i clean mine all of 1 time so far i do it while im doing other things. for example i remove the filter and spray it with the cleaner 3 minutes. then i set the filter aside and get the drain pan and filter wrench and begin draining the oil. while the oil drains i grab the filter and hose it down 2 more minutes. i then set it in the sun to dry and complete my oil change lube and whatever else i planned to do to the truck that day. if at the end it is still not dry i go about doing other projects until it is and then spray and re-install it 4 minutes. at your $30 an hour that is less than $5. how much is a paper element in a very real sense a k&n filter brings back to the reason why oil bath filters were replaced to begin with down time for maintenance. sorry max not even close. but hey its all complete bullshit right if you are talking about what you just said yep!!! -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

tbone wrote the huge amount of added dirt is a load of crap. no its not. seen it too many times. depends alot on where you live whether youll see much difference or not. if this is so true then why dont they get the shit sued out of them. the simple fact is that 1% is still nothing when you are talking about filter rates so high. if you live in a dust bowl even a paper filter is going to let dirt in and plug up in hours. i would bet that many of these failures happened due to the owner not cleaning and oiling it properly. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

if you actually had an idea what you were talking about you would know that bigger holes has nothing to do with it. it achieves better air flow through more uniform airflow paths within the material. um no. it achieves more airflow by having a larger micron rating on the holes through the filter. wrong again maxi. your holes through the filter only applies to paper filters not cloth. perhaps you should do a little reading. yes it is. perhaps you should do a micron of research before making your statements. speaking of microns....... the k&n has more of them going through its holes. read up. hell cummins wont even warranty an engine with one of these snake oil filters on it. really care to back that up lol i dont see you backing it up either i also said that there were no significant performance improvements but the huge amount of added dirt is a load of crap. its 50% more. if you drive in a dusty environment thats a huge difference. not when compared to the total volume and any way you look at it it is still within the manufacturers specifications. btw they are rated between 97% and 99% not just the 97% that you all like to claim. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : denny

k$n filters allow much more dirt into the engine. that is complete bullshit. once again you fail by using general statements. the k&n lets 50% more dirt in. that can be called much by any standard. and you failed by using fuzzy math 3% - 2% = 1% total volume and that is the truth. your fuzzy math example makes it sound huge but in reality 50% more of just about nothing is still just about nothing. however the real picture is 3% versus 2% by a standard paper filter. the fact that you just claimed 3% vs 2% as the real picture shows that even you know that the 50% bs is just bs. there are as youve noted no real power gains by using a k&n correct but i put it on the truck well before break-in so i have nothing to compare it to but with modern fuel injected vehicles i doubt that an air filter would cause significant improvements by itself. the paper air filter will almost always be able to flow the cfm needed by the engine. swapping in a k&n filter alone will not give the engine more air even if it can flow more that the stock paper. actually yes it will and that is simple physics. a k&n filter will gradually get plugged even if you wash it. it is impossible to get all the dirt back out. at the time of the first washing its likely already less efficient than a paper filter at letting air through. really can you back this up of course not. yes some dirt will always be trapped within the filter but you did notice that this is an oiled filter right the oil helps trap most of the dirt and when it is washed out the dirt goes with it. now like you said some dirt will still remain but when i cleaned mine the filter was white with no visible dirt and if you cant even see it there is not enough dirt left to substantially block flow. as successive washings occur the k&n will get more plugged up. while true that does not have to be done very often and the vehicle will probably wear out before the filter. it is true that a k&n can be washed rather than replaced. however washing takes time and special oil. then the filter must be dry before oiling it. if your time is worth $30 an hour youve spent more on washing the k&n than what it would cost in replacing a paper element. lol only if you are an idiot. i cant speak for you but when i clean mine all of 1 time so far i do it while im doing other things. lets see in your first reply in this thread you stated youve had the filter for seven years. and youve only cleaned it one time either you dont drive the truck much or you live in a very clean environment. denny .

From : kevin

that kind of search which i have used most often turns up opinions on sponsed links and sites i wanted an honest users on non users opinion on th k&n. kevin if you didnt want to open a can of worms then why didnt you just do a google search to try and find your answer .

From : miles

tbone wrote tbone wrote the huge amount of added dirt is a load of crap. no its not. seen it too many times. depends alot on where you live whether youll see much difference or not. if this is so true then why dont they get the shit sued out of them. the simple fact is that 1% is still nothing when you are talking about filter rates so high. if you live in a dust bowl even a paper filter is going to let dirt in and plug up in hours. i would bet that many of these failures happened due to the owner not cleaning and oiling it properly. i dont give a rats ass about this 3% vs. 2% = 1% crap. i live where it is very dusty. ive pulled too many k&ns out and seen the pile of fine dust in the air box and the results inside the engine. whine and rant all you want but k&ns are horrible. now pick a topic you wont argue about. hmm...forget that aadt just wouldnt be the same! .

From : miles

tbone wrote not when compared to the total volume and any way you look at it it is still within the manufacturers specifications. btw they are rated between 97% and 99% not just the 97% that you all like to claim. wrong. while there are k&ns that are rated at close to 99% they are not the street versions found for typical vehicles. those are rated at 97%. .

From : milesh

kevin wrote that kind of search which i have used most often turns up opinions on sponsed links and sites i wanted an honest users on non users opinion on th k&n. search google groups not websites. .

From : redneck tookover hell

i know that im asking a lot but where are your sources strange but you can never come up with any either lardass politics the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich. .

From : milesh

tbone wrote i know that im asking a lot but where are your sources lol read k&ns own specifications for the products they carry both consumer and racing. then look up the tests done by an independent parties. there are many but the most notable is from the british motor industry research association who tested k&ns in 1983 and again in 1992. look it up. .

From : tbone

lets see in your first reply in this thread you stated youve had the filter for seven years. and youve only cleaned it one time either you dont drive the truck much or you live in a very clean environment. not really. sure i dont live in a dust bowl but there was some industry around me where i worked and a few construction sites as well. you also have to remember that a cloth filter traps dirt within the fibers not on the surface like a paper filter does and can hold about 6 times the dirt and still function from the k&n site. based on a 10000 mile filter change i should be able to go around 60000 miles between cleanings and i cleaned mine around 52000. probably by the fall i will need to clean it again but since i dont use the truck that much anymore it may be the last time. i just hope that i can find the kit - -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

tbone wrote the huge amount of added dirt is a load of crap. no its not. seen it too many times. depends alot on where you live whether youll see much difference or not. .

From : tbone

tbone wrote tbone wrote the huge amount of added dirt is a load of crap. no its not. seen it too many times. depends alot on where you live whether youll see much difference or not. if this is so true then why dont they get the shit sued out of them. the simple fact is that 1% is still nothing when you are talking about filter rates so high. if you live in a dust bowl even a paper filter is going to let dirt in and plug up in hours. i would bet that many of these failures happened due to the owner not cleaning and oiling it properly. i dont give a rats ass about this 3% vs. 2% = 1% crap. i live where it is very dusty. ive pulled too many k&ns out and seen the pile of fine dust in the air box and the results inside the engine. whine and rant all you want but k&ns are horrible. how did you do that milesh are you a mechanic did you put then in and if not how do you know if they were maintained properly funny how you seem to see them used by professional racers even in desert situations but you know better right milesh. now pick a topic you wont argue about. lol man talk about pot kettle black. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : milesh

kevin wrote ok guys i was just looking for yes/no and benifical or not answers. i did not want to stir up what i have. its just tbone. hell argue no matter what the topic or what side youre on. if you live in a dust free area the k&n most likely will not cause any damage. but as many have pointed out there is little to gain by using one. i havent seen anyone report any gains made but a few have said their truck started to run poorly. i used one several years ago and found no improvement of any kind but did find alot of dust in the air box. i do live in a very dusty area though. .

From : mac davis

on mon 19 apr 2004 105610 -0400 kevin ecmss@cyberbeach.com wrote i dont want to reopen a can of work again but i dont remenber the whole argument against k&n filters. if you have a properly maintened k&n filter can it cause any damage to the engine. i have spoke to my dealer and thaey have no problem with me installing it and neither does dc. i am looking for opinions for both sides of the fench not an argument over k&n. kevin im putting a k&n on my reader tomorrow so i can delete all this crap faster... mac .

From : tbone

tbone wrote not when compared to the total volume and any way you look at it it is still within the manufacturers specifications. btw they are rated between 97% and 99% not just the 97% that you all like to claim. wrong. while there are k&ns that are rated at close to 99% they are not the street versions found for typical vehicles. those are rated at 97%. i know that im asking a lot but where are your sources -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

funny how if its just me that you are here also. did you forget the gas thread and your ass kicking by floyd -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving kevin wrote ok guys i was just looking for yes/no and benifical or not answers. i did not want to stir up what i have. its just tbone. hell argue no matter what the topic or what side youre on. if you live in a dust free area the k&n most likely will not cause any damage. but as many have pointed out there is little to gain by using one. i havent seen anyone report any gains made but a few have said their truck started to run poorly. i used one several years ago and found no improvement of any kind but did find alot of dust in the air box. i do live in a very dusty area though. .

From : the guy

on tue 20 apr 2004 041228 gmt tbone t-bonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote i am kind of new here and dont want to be pissing anybody off. the overall opinion is that k&n isnt worth the time as no real benefits are to be had. obviously at least two engine manufacturers dont like the filter and one voids the warranty when its used. which one the only thing stirred up is tbone and hell argue anything since hes looking for proof that he exists. lol yeah pretty comical. this is maxies attempt at being an intellectual. cut him some slack. he is an idiot. .

From : the guy

on tue 20 apr 2004 072940 gmt tbone t-bonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote and why did they suddenly begin to warrantee them again they didnt suddenly begin warrantying again. simply put if you use a k&n on a cummins you risk your warranty. look i dont care if you use a k&n or not. tbone likes em he can use em. others dont like them they dont have to use em. as far as the warranty issue dc not cummins announced at one time that use of a k&n would void your warranty on the cummins engine in their trucks. the reason that they gave was that the k&n had no hard foam backing as the factory filter did. the factory filter was a mopar not a cummins. dc no longer says they will void your warranty if you use a k&n. they dont say why. interestingly however the mopar filter no longer has a hard foam backing and that happened when mopar dropped their arguments against k&n. now you will have to fill in the blanks. personally the oiling of the k&n is a pain in the ass. it is just way too easy to over oil it and end up with that oil all over the turbo etc. i think that is where the k&n falls down. the reoiling isnt explained well and people simply over oil. as far as letting more particulates into the engine that is for each person to decide but it isnt enough to make a difference. show me where that is stated cummins does claim that if any performance part is found to be the cause of an engine failure that your warranty is at risk but that would be difficult to prove and they dont mention k$n specifically. could it be that like so many of you they made this claim and when told to back it up they simply could not do it hardly. any excess oil and dirt coming from the k&n could have a detrimental effect on the turbo to name one possiblity. if the filter is oiled properly there will be no excess oil and since it removes 97% of the dirt where is this excess dirt going to come from btw if the design of the turbo is so critical that a 1% increase can destroy it then it doesnt belong on a motor vehicle. if it were so bad and did cause damage and they could prove it they should recommend not using them on their web site and it simply is not there. a mention on a website isnt proof of anything. if they are as dangerous as some of you like to claim it would be a disservice to their customers not to place a warning on their web site. .

From : the guy

on 20 apr 2004 043648 gmt mopar440@aol.comnet.org redneck tookover hell wrote that is complete bullshit. and you wonder why most everybody wants to argue with you. denny nope doesnt have anything to do with it. its because boners a fucking idiot pure and simple ah yes littlepussy once again shows his iq by using a word he found in his latest reading material. unfortunately littlepussy gets his reading material at the 7-11. politics the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich. .

From : tbone

on 20 apr 2004 043648 gmt mopar440@aol.comnet.org redneck tookover hell wrote that is complete bullshit. and you wonder why most everybody wants to argue with you. denny nope doesnt have anything to do with it. its because boners a fucking idiot pure and simple ah yes littlepussy once again shows his iq by using a word he found in his latest reading material. unfortunately littlepussy gets his reading material at the 7-11. i doubt that most of the reading material in the 7-11 has actual words and we both know that red cant read. hell he only comes in hear when he has someone that can read those big words to him. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : kens nospam 4me

hey t. guy personally the oiling of the k&n is a pain in the ass. it is just way too easy to over oil it and end up with that oil all over the turbo etc. i think that is where the k&n falls down. the reoiling isnt explained well and people simply over oil http//www.knfilters.com/clningins.htm http//www.dccarcare.com/tipowk/tipowk20.html k&n puts a caution about over oiling in their cleaning directions link above. i suspect they state this because it is a possibility and could cause some problem. i have never used their filter ... but it does look like a pia to me as well. lazy ken on tue 20 apr 2004 072940 gmt tbone t-bonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote and why did they suddenly begin to warrantee them again they didnt suddenly begin warrantying again. simply put if you use a k&n on a cummins you risk your warranty. look i dont care if you use a k&n or not. tbone likes em he can use em. others dont like them they dont have to use em. as far as the warranty issue dc not cummins announced at one time that use of a k&n would void your warranty on the cummins engine in their trucks. the reason that they gave was that the k&n had no hard foam backing as the factory filter did. the factory filter was a mopar not a cummins. dc no longer says they will void your warranty if you use a k&n. they dont say why. interestingly however the mopar filter no longer has a hard foam backing and that happened when mopar dropped their arguments against k&n. now you will have to fill in the blanks. personally the oiling of the k&n is a pain in the ass. it is just way too easy to over oil it and end up with that oil all over the turbo etc. i think that is where the k&n falls down. the reoiling isnt explained well and people simply over oil. as far as letting more particulates into the engine that is for each person to decide but it isnt enough to make a difference. show me where that is stated cummins does claim that if any performance part is found to be the cause of an engine failure that your warranty is at risk but that would be difficult to prove and they dont mention k$n specifically. could it be that like so many of you they made this claim and when told to back it up they simply could not do it hardly. any excess oil and dirt coming from the k&n could have a detrimental effect on the turbo to name one possiblity. if the filter is oiled properly there will be no excess oil and since it removes 97% of the dirt where is this excess dirt going to come from btw if the design of the turbo is so critical that a 1% increase can destroy it then it doesnt belong on a motor vehicle. if it were so bad and did cause damage and they could prove it they should recommend not using them on their web site and it simply is not there. a mention on a website isnt proof of anything. if they are as dangerous as some of you like to claim it would be a disservice to their customers not to place a warning on their web site. .

From : redneck tookover hell

lets see in your first reply in this thread you stated youve had the filter for seven years. and youve only cleaned it one time either you dont drive the truck much or you live in a very clean environment. denny the boner spends most of his time spinning his lardass in a mudhole not much dust from that politics the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich. .

From : the guy

on 20 apr 2004 160800 gmt mopar440@aol.comnet.org redneck tookover hell wrote lets see in your first reply in this thread you stated youve had the filter for seven years. and youve only cleaned it one time either you dont drive the truck much or you live in a very clean environment. denny the boner spends most of his time spinning his lardass in a mudhole not much dust from that red people are actually trying to have a reasonable debate about this topic this time. now i understand that that is an anomaly for this ng but why not try it out for size and see if it fits. besides your sophomoric prattle is getting old. politics the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich. .

From : milesh

tbone wrote how did you do that milesh are you a mechanic did you put then in and if not how do you know if they were maintained properly funny how you seem to see them used by professional racers even in desert situations but you know better right milesh. racers you mean the guys that race a few 100 miles then rebuild the engine you trying to compare a race car to a passenger car rofl. ya i do know better. .

From : milesh

tbone wrote funny how if its just me that you are here also. did you forget the gas thread and your ass kicking by floyd rofl you mean how you admitted not having a clue and thus referred to whatever floyd said its ironic how some people when they do not know much about a topic instead just declare themselves a winner. must be a way to give one a sense of self worth. .

From : tbone

hey t. guy personally the oiling of the k&n is a pain in the ass. it is just way too easy to over oil it and end up with that oil all over the turbo etc. i think that is where the k&n falls down. the reoiling isnt explained well and people simply over oil http//www.knfilters.com/clningins.htm http//www.dccarcare.com/tipowk/tipowk20.html k&n puts a caution about over oiling in their cleaning directions link above. i suspect they state this because it is a possibility and could cause some problem. yes it can and they state it clearly on their web site. i have never used their filter ... but it does look like a pia to me as well. it is actually fairly easy. you just need to treat the oil as painting with a runny paint on a vertical surface. a light coat as if you are trying to prevent runs pretty much does it. it is easy to add a little more if you need to but if you use to much you will have to start over and clean it again. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

red people are actually trying to have a reasonable debate about this topic this time. now i understand that that is an anomaly for this ng but why not try it out for size and see if it fits. besides your sophomoric prattle is getting old. dude why do you even bother. at first he was entertaining but now he is just acting childish and not worth responding to. perhaps his last blood test came back with some bad and he needs too vent. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

lol do you really think that they art rebuilding them because of the air filter -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving tbone wrote how did you do that milesh are you a mechanic did you put then in and if not how do you know if they were maintained properly funny how you seem to see them used by professional racers even in desert situations but you know better right milesh. racers you mean the guys that race a few 100 miles then rebuild the engine you trying to compare a race car to a passenger car rofl. ya i do know better. .

From : tbone

tbone wrote funny how if its just me that you are here also. did you forget the gas thread and your ass kicking by floyd rofl you mean how you admitted not having a clue and thus referred to whatever floyd said its ironic how some people when they do not know much about a topic instead just declare themselves a winner. must be a way to give one a sense of self worth. you should know dude you do it all of the time. the fact that you kept deleting most of the posts from floyd and me more than proves that you alligator mouth was overrunning that hummingbird ass. i did say that i knew less about alaska than someone that lived a good part of his life there and he more than proved that he knows far more than you did as well. the difference is that im smart enough to understand that. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

tbone wrote i know that im asking a lot but where are your sources lol read k&ns own specifications for the products they carry both consumer and racing. then look up the tests done by an independent parties. there are many but the most notable is from the british motor industry research association who tested k&ns in 1983 and again in 1992. look it up. so your most recent test was 12 years ago and the one before that was 21 lol!!!! do you think that they were unable to make any changes in 12 years -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : milesh

tbone wrote red people are actually trying to have a reasonable debate about this topic this time. now i understand that that is an anomaly for this ng but why not try it out for size and see if it fits. besides your sophomoric prattle is getting old. dude why do you even bother. at first he was entertaining but now he is just acting childish and not worth responding to. perhaps his last blood test came back with some bad and he needs too vent. rofl...too funny. what was that you said about a kettle .

From : tbone

tbone wrote red people are actually trying to have a reasonable debate about this topic this time. now i understand that that is an anomaly for this ng but why not try it out for size and see if it fits. besides your sophomoric prattle is getting old. dude why do you even bother. at first he was entertaining but now he is just acting childish and not worth responding to. perhaps his last blood test came back with some bad and he needs too vent. gee milesh were you not the one in this thread claiming that i was the one who just wanted to start problems and here you are again in a part of this post that has nothing to do with you at all. is this the best that you can do rofl...too funny. what was that you said about a kettle what does that have to do with this i didnt start this childish crap with him and i dont even know when he posts anymore but that doesnt mean that if i do see it that i should just ignore it you dont. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : milesh

tbone wrote tbone wrote red people are actually trying to have a reasonable debate about this topic this time. now i understand that that is an anomaly for this ng but why not try it out for size and see if it fits. besides your sophomoric prattle is getting old. dude why do you even bother. at first he was entertaining but now he is just acting childish and not worth responding to. perhaps his last blood test came back with some bad and he needs too vent. gee milesh were you not the one in this thread claiming that i was the one who just wanted to start problems and here you are again in a part of this post that has nothing to do with you at all. is this the best that you can do uh bonehead you misquoted me. i did not write any of the above text. not one word of it. learn to read before putting foot in mouth. .

From : tbone

uh bonehead you misquoted me. i did not write any of the above text. never said that you did. i forgot to delete the crap above my first sentence but what i wrote fits you all the same and as usual you were unable to defend it how typical not one word of it. learn to read before putting foot in mouth. ill ask again is this the best that you can do -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : kens nospam 4me

hey tom it is probably easier than it reads. i just never motivated myself enough to find out. but if you use to much you will have to start over and clean it again. this was a factor for me. i know my paint skills. ken hey t. guy personally the oiling of the k&n is a pain in the ass. it is just way too easy to over oil it and end up with that oil all over the turbo etc. i think that is where the k&n falls down. the reoiling isnt explained well and people simply over oil http//www.knfilters.com/clningins.htm http//www.dccarcare.com/tipowk/tipowk20.html k&n puts a caution about over oiling in their cleaning directions link above. i suspect they state this because it is a possibility and could cause some problem. yes it can and they state it clearly on their web site. i have never used their filter ... but it does look like a pia to me as well. it is actually fairly easy. you just need to treat the oil as painting with a runny paint on a vertical surface. a light coat as if you are trying to prevent runs pretty much does it. it is easy to add a little more if you need to but if you use to much you will have to start over and clean it again. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : max340

im putting a k&n on my reader tomorrow so i can delete all this crap faster... hopefuly youll have a decent filtration efficiency. but i doubt youll get better performance out of the reader..... is this a dusty environment make sure ya oil it right. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : miles

tbone wrote ill ask again is this the best that you can do best is this a contest to you youre really into this arent ya .

From : tbone

tbone wrote so your most recent test was 12 years ago and the one before that was 21 lol!!!! do you think that they were unable to make any changes in 12 years they are using decades old technology. and you can prove this how their specifications have not changed over the years. what specs are those well except they removed specifications that showed the k&n worse than a paper. now that would be false advertising got proof like i asked before and you as usual deleted them once again if their filters are so bad why havent they beed sued out of buisness by now -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

tbone wrote lol do you really think that they art rebuilding them because of the air filter oh geez. no thats not the reason. then what is it all-knowing one you are trying to suggest that whats good for a racer must be good for a consumer. in many cases yes. where do you think the manufacturers get many of their performance ideas from that is absurd logic. only by your proven limited understanding. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : max340

red people are actually trying to have a reasonable debate about this topic this time. now i understand that that is an anomaly for this ng but why not try it out for size and see if it fits. besides your sophomoric prattle is getting old. who are you and what have you done with guy or is this just another hypocritical statement from you max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

wrong again maxi. your holes through the filter only applies to paper filters not cloth. perhaps you should do a little reading. lol care to explain why k&n refers to the size of particles in microns when it tests its cloth filters from http//www.knfilters.com/facts.htm we subject a sample of our filter designs to this test procedure using coarse test dust which includes particles ranging in size from less than 5.5 microns to 176 microns. as a point of reference a human hair is approximately 50 microns in diameter studies have shown most engine wear is caused by particles 10 to 20 microns in size. k&n air filters like most quality disposable air filters provide excellent filtration of these particles. maybe you need to do the reading. not when compared to the total volume we arent comparing total volume we are comparing volume of dirt allowed to pass through. and any way you look at it it is still within the manufacturers specifications. id like to see proof of that please. btw they are rated between 97% and 99% not just the 97% that you all like to claim. so which one is rated at 99% and which is rated at 97% wanna guess or want to be sure and put paper in it max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

show me where that is stated cummins does claim that if any performance part is found to be the cause of an engine failure that your warranty is at risk but that would be difficult to prove and they dont mention k$n specifically. 1 any performance part is just that any. 2 difficult to prove or not cummins as does any manufacturer reserves the right to deny warranty coverage if they see fit. 3 k&n is a performance product on a cummins as they are not offered from the factory. if the filter is oiled properly there will be no excess oil describe proper oiling and guarantee it will happen on every filter. and since it removes 97% of the dirt where is this excess dirt going to come from the excess is the stuff that gets through a k&n that wouldnt get through the approved filter a foam and paper element. btw if the design of the turbo is so critical that a 1% increase can destroy it you have no clue about turbos it appears. any object that wil lspin at 50000 rpm doesnt need excess dirt oil or residue altering its balance or efficiency. then it doesnt belong on a motor vehicle. prove it. if they are as dangerous as some of you like to claim it would be a disservice to their customers not to place a warning on their web site. no one has claimed they are dangerous. my stand has always been that for the money there is no improvement in performance and there can be a drop in filter efficiency. thats a bad deal. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

it is actually fairly easy. you just need to treat the oil as painting with a runny paint on a vertical surface. a light coat as if you are trying to prevent runs pretty much does it. it is easy to add a little more if you need to but if you use to much you will have to start over and clean it again. sounds like a pita. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : tbone

hey tom it is probably easier than it reads. i just never motivated myself enough to find out. but if you use to much you will have to start over and clean it again. this was a factor for me. i know my paint skills. ken lol yea the first time i did it i was a bit worried about it too. hell i didnt know that they were white until i cleaned it. like i said in my original post i like it and have no trouble with it but it is up to the person if they want to use it or not. if you are looking for huge performance gains your not going to find them on a modern fuel injected engine with the air filter alone. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : mike simmons

its simple to figger. bigger holes = better airflow = bigger pieces of shit through the filter. if you actually had an idea what you were talking about you would know that bigger holes has nothing to do with it. it achieves better air flow through more uniform airflow paths within the material. its not bullshit. yes it is. perhaps you should do a micron of research before making your statements. hell cummins wont even warranty an engine with one of these snake oil filters on it. really care to back that up in hopes of settling this disagreement i am quoting from page 293 of the 03 dodge ram diesel owners manual note many aftermarket performance air filter elements do not adequately filter the air entering your engine. use of such filters can severely damage your engine and such damage is not covered by the manufacturers warranty. while k&n was not specifically mentioned in the om it has been mentioned many times at d/c zone training which i have attended. further genos garage no longer sells k&n becuase they do not meet cummins minimum specs for filtration and cummins specifically warns against using anything other than the oem filter. its your engine and your money but you wont see a k&n on any of my vehicles for two reasons.... inferior filtration and no discernable performance enhancement. my and chryco and cummins .02 let the flames begin! chryco service manager member sae you must have wasted your own money on one or you wouldnt defend them. yes i did and 90000 miles later the engine still runs fine and the throttle body is still clean. its funny the people who are given k$n filters as a gift dont see a damn bit of difference in anything. cause there is none. never claimed that there was one. the people who get sucked in and waste their own money all of a sudden have 50 more horsepower and 4 mpg better. that my son is the bull shit part. i also said that there were no significant performance improvements but the huge amount of added dirt is a load of crap. learn it accept it live it. you got ripped off period. i do find it funny that someone can make the claim that another was ripped off without a single fact to back it up. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : paul jensen

once again you fail by using general statements. the k&n lets 50% more dirt in. that can be called much by any standard. and you failed by using fuzzy math 3% - 2% = 1% total volume and that is the truth. your fuzzy math example makes it sound huge but in reality 50% more of just about nothing is still just about nothing. 3 is 50% more than 2. 2 x 1.5 = 3 2% x 150% = 3% i know math using percents goes beyond the third grade so it may be difficult for you to understand but maxs math is correct. .

From : Annonymous

on 20 apr 2004 042732 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote its 50% more. if you drive in a dusty environment thats a huge difference. max prove your numbers max. no bs. prove it. ive used them. hundreds of thousands of kms. not saying i got any better power - but it sure didnt make less - and the engines stood up well. dusty road conditions were always a good part of my driving. there was absolutely no indication that any more dirt was getting through than with a cheapass fram filter. life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : paul jensen

red people are actually trying to have a reasonable debate about this topic this time. now i understand that that is an anomaly for this ng but why not try it out for size and see if it fits. besides your sophomoric prattle is getting old. at the risk of starting an equally silly tangent to this thread... im not interested in a k&n filter but am intrigued by a cold air intake. can these be had with paper filters and do they make any difference even a small one here we go... .

From : paul jensen

if you didnt want to open a can of worms then why didnt you just do a google search to try and find your answer because he thought maybe he would get some serious answers and discussion to his question and it actually started out pretty well but then degraded into the usual trolling and baiting. if it were my question its not i would be interested in people who actually used the damn thing in their vehicles and wouldnt give a rats damn what someone who never used it thought about it. .

From : Annonymous

on 20 apr 2004 162553 edt milesh milesh@nounwantedspam.com wrote tbone wrote lol do you really think that they art rebuilding them because of the air filter oh geez. no thats not the reason. you are trying to suggest that whats good for a racer must be good for a consumer. that is absurd logic. any of you nay-sayers ever drive in sub-sahara africa try driving anything through burkina faso. or botswana. or zambia. the only thing that works is an oiled guaze filter. or oil bath a paper filter becomes a choke in no time as it is strictly a surface filter. oiled guaze is a depth filter equivalent in filter area to a paper filter over 10 times the volume. addition of a pre-cleaner centrifuge extends the filter life a whole lot regardless which filter you use. like a donovan i had the original oil path filter on my beetle in zambia. it was 23 years old when i left it there. my peugot had an oil bath filter from a vw combi. the k&n is the filter of choice on land cruisers etc in burkina today. .

From : joe

so what are dirty conditions driving through saudi arabia hell ive put over 35000 regular every-day miles on the k&n with no problems. some people like em some dont. just relating my experience. joe black 03 dakota 5.9 r/t cc calypso green 93 mustang 5.0 lx hatch with a few goodies gc.117419$4b1.91516@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com and probably never in dirty conditions. -- steve ========= kevin ecmss@cyberbeach.com wrote in i dont want to reopen a can of work again but i dont remenber the whole argument against k&n filters. if you have a properly maintened k&n filter can it cause any damage to the engine. i have spoke to my dealer and thaey have no problem with me installing it and neither does dc. i am looking for opinions for both sides of the fench not an argument over k&n. kevin been running one in my mustang for years with no problems at all. maf looks great tb looks great etc. 143000 miles and still going strong. havent tuned up the r/t yet. joe black 03 dakota 5.9 r/t cc calypso green 93 mustang 5.0 lx hatch with a few goodies .

From : max340

its 50% more. if you drive in a dusty environment thats a huge difference. max prove your numbers max. its simple math. average air filter takes out all but 2% 98% filtration of the dirt. k&n takes out all but 3% 97% filtration of the dirt. 3 is 50% more than 2. if your truck sucks in 2 pounds of dirt with a regular filter a k&n will allow 3 pounds to pass. if thats acceptable and you think the k&n is to your advantage feel free to install one. no bs. no bs. the numbers dont lie. prove it. its been proven many times. of course there are always those of you who refuse to accept the truth and prefer to defend their use of k&n by insulting others or whining about the numbers. there was absolutely no indication that any more dirt was getting through than with a cheapass fram filter. well consider that youve admitted that its a cheapass fram filter and maybe youve got the reason why. whatever works for you. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

a paper filter becomes a choke in no time as it is strictly a surface filter. which proves that the paper filter is not only doing the job but catching more. oiled guaze is a depth filter equivalent in filter area to a paper filter over 10 times the volume. which proves that washing a k&n will never remove all the dirt. addition of a pre-cleaner centrifuge extends the filter life a whole lot regardless which filter you use. great but those wont fit under the hood of most vehicles. i had the original oil path filter on my beetle in zambia. it was 23 years old when i left it there. so what if it was running great thats something else. the k&n is the filter of choice on land cruisers etc in burkina today. all youve proven is that different conditions require different maintenance techniques. for the typical street driven vehicle in the united states k&n isnt the best choice. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

i put one on my leaf blower last year and blew my neighbors house across the street!! was the house made of balsa wood so he could occasionally come outside and scare the crap out of the neighborhood kids max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : the guy

on 20 apr 2004 223218 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote red people are actually trying to have a reasonable debate about this topic this time. now i understand that that is an anomaly for this ng but why not try it out for size and see if it fits. besides your sophomoric prattle is getting old. who are you and what have you done with guy or is this just another hypocritical statement from you max well lets see. thinking. thinking. no i was serious. life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : the guy

on tue 20 apr 2004 185227 -0500 mike simmons mikesim@fidnet.com wrote its simple to figger. bigger holes = better airflow = bigger pieces of shit through the filter. if you actually had an idea what you were talking about you would know that bigger holes has nothing to do with it. it achieves better air flow through more uniform airflow paths within the material. its not bullshit. yes it is. perhaps you should do a micron of research before making your statements. hell cummins wont even warranty an engine with one of these snake oil filters on it. really care to back that up in hopes of settling this disagreement i am quoting from page 293 of the 03 dodge ram diesel owners manual note many aftermarket performance air filter elements do not adequately filter the air entering your engine. use of such filters can severely damage your engine and such damage is not covered by the manufacturers warranty. while k&n was not specifically mentioned in the om it has been mentioned many times at d/c zone training which i have attended. further genos garage no longer sells k&n becuase they do not meet cummins minimum specs for filtration and cummins specifically warns against using anything other than the oem filter. its your engine and your money but you wont see a k&n on any of my vehicles for two reasons.... inferior filtration and no discernable performance enhancement. my and chryco and cummins .02 let the flames begin! no flames. not at all. this is good info. this is information rather than supposition. chryco service manager member sae you must have wasted your own money on one or you wouldnt defend them. yes i did and 90000 miles later the engine still runs fine and the throttle body is still clean. its funny the people who are given k$n filters as a gift dont see a damn bit of difference in anything. cause there is none. never claimed that there was one. the people who get sucked in and waste their own money all of a sudden have 50 more horsepower and 4 mpg better. that my son is the bull shit part. i also said that there were no significant performance improvements but the huge amount of added dirt is a load of crap. learn it accept it live it. you got ripped off period. i do find it funny that someone can make the claim that another was ripped off without a single fact to back it up. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

nospam.clare.nce@snyder.on.ca wrote the only thing that works is an oiled guaze filter. or oil bath a paper filter becomes a choke in no time as it is strictly a surface filter. oiled guaze is a depth filter equivalent in filter area to a paper filter over 10 times the volume. this is also why offroad racers use them. however they accept the poorer filtering capabilities. for them the trade off is well worth it. the k&n is the filter of choice on land cruisers etc in burkina today. dont know about land cruisers in burkina but in the usa they are junk imho. how many use other filters such as amsoil or uni offroaders here in az greatly prefer them over k&n. .

From : roy

red people are actually trying to have a reasonable debate about this topic this time. now i understand that that is an anomaly for this ng but why not try it out for size and see if it fits. besides your sophomoric prattle is getting old. at the risk of starting an equally silly tangent to this thread... im not interested in a k&n filter but am intrigued by a cold air intake. can these be had with paper filters and do they make any difference even a small one here we go... ill assume we are talking about a stock engine. a cold air intake will give minimal improvement. put some velocity to it and the improvement will be increased a bit. roy .

From : mac davis

on 20 apr 2004 223521 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote im putting a k&n on my reader tomorrow so i can delete all this crap faster... hopefuly youll have a decent filtration efficiency. but i doubt youll get better performance out of the reader..... is this a dusty environment make sure ya oil it right. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan dunno max... i put one on my leaf blower last year and blew my neighbors house across the street!! mac .

From : tbone

it is actually fairly easy. you just need to treat the oil as painting with a runny paint on a vertical surface. a light coat as if you are trying to prevent runs pretty much does it. it is easy to add a little more if you need to but if you use to much you will have to start over and clean it again. sounds like a pita. max if you over oil it yes it is but most people wont make that mistake more than once. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : milesh

tbone wrote for the typical street driven vehicle in the united states k&n isnt the best choice. once again you make statements with no basis in fact. hmm...tell us your facts as to why the k&n is the best choice for consumer vehicles. .

From : tbone

wrong again maxi. your holes through the filter only applies to paper filters not cloth. perhaps you should do a little reading. lol care to explain why k&n refers to the size of particles in microns when it tests its cloth filters yawn and how else are they going to do it max from http//www.knfilters.com/facts.htm we subject a sample of our filter designs to this test procedure using coarse test dust which includes particles ranging in size from less than 5.5 microns to 176 microns. as a point of reference a human hair is approximately 50 microns in diameter studies have shown most engine wear is caused by particles 10 to 20 microns in size. k&n air filters like most quality disposable air filters provide excellent filtration of these particles. maybe you need to do the reading. lol you really are a simple minded sorta guy. there are other ways to catch or block dirt besides the surface barrier method holes that a paper filter does. perhaps you should read exactly how the k$n works. not when compared to the total volume we arent comparing total volume we are comparing volume of dirt allowed to pass through. lol but the volume of dirt the filter lets in is directly rated to the total volume. and any way you look at it it is still within the manufacturers specifications. id like to see proof of that please. lol like you ever provide any when asked. the simple fact is that they cannot say it will not void your warranty if it does and as mike pointed out at one time it was not within spec for the cummins diesel and did. btw they are rated between 97% and 99% not just the 97% that you all like to claim. so which one is rated at 99% and which is rated at 97% wanna guess or want to be sure and put paper in it i would say that the ones for the cummins and the racing series are more likely in the 99% range but even the 97% is still at or above manufacturers spec or they could not claim that it will not void your warranty. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

show me where that is stated cummins does claim that if any performance part is found to be the cause of an engine failure that your warranty is at risk but that would be difficult to prove and they dont mention k$n specifically. 1 any performance part is just that any. yes it is but people in here specify the k&n filter as an automatic void of the warranty just for using it and if that were so cummins or dc is obligated to notify its customers of such a situation. 2 difficult to prove or not cummins as does any manufacturer reserves the right to deny warranty coverage if they see fit. lol not without proof and like you said its hard to do. 3 k&n is a performance product on a cummins as they are not offered from the factory. lol that could be applied to any air filter other than the factory supplied make. if the filter is oiled properly there will be no excess oil describe proper oiling and guarantee it will happen on every filter. read the box that the recharge kit comes in. as for the guarantee there is no guarantee on anything done by the customer. and since it removes 97% of the dirt where is this excess dirt going to come from the excess is the stuff that gets through a k&n that wouldnt get through the approved filter a foam and paper element. as long as it is below manufacturers specs it is not considered excess. btw if the design of the turbo is so critical that a 1% increase can destroy it you have no clue about turbos it appears. any object that wil lspin at 50000 rpm doesnt need excess dirt oil or residue altering its balance or efficiency. never said that it did but the simple fact is that it will have to deal with such things in a real world environment in a moving vehicle. then it doesnt belong on a motor vehicle. prove it. prove what if they are as dangerous as some of you like to claim it would be a disservice to their customers not to place a warning on their web site. no one has claimed they are dangerous. my stand has always been that for the money there is no improvement in performance and there can be a drop in filter efficiency. thats a bad deal. yes you did. you made the claim of an automatic warranty voiding by using them and that is a dangerous thing to the customer if the engine fails and the cost of repair is coming out of the customers product. as for no improvement in performance as you like to say prove it. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

a paper filter becomes a choke in no time as it is strictly a surface filter. which proves that the paper filter is not only doing the job but catching more. it proves no such thing it only proves the inneffency of a paper filter. oiled guaze is a depth filter equivalent in filter area to a paper filter over 10 times the volume. which proves that washing a k&n will never remove all the dirt. really how i had the original oil path filter on my beetle in zambia. it was 23 years old when i left it there. so what if it was running great thats something else. if it lasted 23 years that is pretty great. the k&n is the filter of choice on land cruisers etc in burkina today. all youve proven is that different conditions require different maintenance techniques. for the typical street driven vehicle in the united states k&n isnt the best choice. once again you make statements with no basis in fact. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : max340

but then forces then to prove it on a case by case basis before they can deny coverage. duh!!! max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

i agree and that proves that using a k&n filter does not automatically void any warranties so that claim that it does is complete bs. no one has claimed anything of the sort. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : rp

holy crap!!! its like it never ends. i for one do appreciate all of this dialog because i havent had a good laugh in about three hours or since i started reading this dialog/debate. mainly because i didnt start it and i have nothing to do with it. i dont want to reopen a can of work again but i dont remenber the whole argument against k&n filters. if you have a properly maintened k&n filter can it cause any damage to the engine. i have spoke to my dealer and thaey have no problem with me installing it and neither does dc. i am looking for opinions for both sides of the fench not an argument over k&n. kevin .

From : tbone

tbone wrote for the typical street driven vehicle in the united states k&n isnt the best choice. once again you make statements with no basis in fact. hmm...tell us your facts as to why the k&n is the best choice for consumer vehicles. i didnt say that it was the best choice since that decision completely belongs to the individual. what i did say is that it will not harm your vehicle and those that claim that it will are almost always speaking from nothing more than rumor and personal opinion. mike made a point that at one time the k&n filter was below spec for the cummins although i dont know if that is still the case. since neither cummins or dc lists it as a no-use item specifically i doubt that it is still below spec but if it is either cummins or dc should be obligated to make that known and neither one are doing it. i have owned mine for 7 years and have not noticed any more dirt or oil in the throttle body then my buddy with his paper filters. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : dddd

tbone wrote for the typical street driven vehicle in the united states k&n isnt the best choice. once again you make statements with no basis in fact. hmm...tell us your facts as to why the k&n is the best choice for consumer vehicles. im new to this thread but i believe that the average consumer will not maintain a k&n filter properly. it takes a little knowledge to know when too much or too little oil is applied and making a mistake could be costly. they might be the greatest thing since sliced bread but i believe that they should only be used by people who are knowledgeable and are fully aware of the consequences of mishandling. the average consumer vehicle is not maintained by the owner and leaving the maintenance of a k&n filter to quickie oil change artists is not wise. dddd .

From : tbone

tbone wrote for the typical street driven vehicle in the united states k&n isnt the best choice. once again you make statements with no basis in fact. hmm...tell us your facts as to why the k&n is the best choice for consumer vehicles. i didnt say that it was the best choice since that decision completely belongs to the individual. what i did say is that it will not harm your vehicle and those that claim that it will are almost always speaking from nothing more than rumor and personal opinion. mike made a point that at one time the k&n filter was below spec it is below spec!!! i stated that it wasnt mentioned specifically in the owners manual but in many tech training seminars i have attended conducted by chryco service engineers it was quite clearly stated that the k&n filters did not....... repeat did not meet chryco or cummins specs!!!!!..... how much more clearly can i state this!!!!!!! use this filter at your own peril!!! mike ok mike fair enough ill take your word for it. my question is then why doesnt dc or cummins state so if they know this to be true and how can k&n make the claim that it will not void your warrantee if it will. do cummins and dc just not give a shit about their customers and is k&n just lying i am not trying to bust your balls here or even argue with you i just want to know the answer and i hope that someone in one of these training seminars would have asked i would have. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

asking you to actually read the fucking material you claim to be an expert on and you would know that pumps cannot create pressure by themselves. lol the same reason that you claim that a filter and regulator produce heat is the same reason that a pump produces pressure. its either one way or the other. they can only create flow. and any resistance to that flow creates pressure. are you saying that there is no resistance in the pump you keep wanting to talk about inside the pump but no hydraulic system exists entirely inside the pump. outside the pump is flow. only flow. there is no pressure until something stops the flow like a valve servo piston or plug. or outlet fitting that reduces the size of the passage something that all pumps have. then there is that newtons laws thing about objects and motion. lol w r o n g. putting the vehicle into reverse is all the proof i need that you are once again full of shit. notice that in reverse that the front clutch lube circuit converter cooler and line pressure all jump up. how would this be possible if the fluid would just flow through these circuits. more flow through the same size passages increases resistance and thus pressure rises. pretty simple really. and how does that happen maxi perhaps by the regulator closing off the dump port ya know the one i said if completely blocked off would effectively disable the regulator. try an education in hydraulics. try knowing more than just the terms and definitions. try putting some valid theory and the principles of physics behind it. the reason that is happens is because the manual valve closes off its two feedback ports to the regulator which reduces the force against the regulator spring if you care to read the schematic youd realize that one of those feedback ports has no effect on the valve. really then why is it there further youd realize that the two remaining hydraulic feeds to the regulation side are more than enough to regulate the pressure at roughly twice the psi as a forward gear. two of them which ones are they since i can only see one. perhaps it is just a misunderstanding of definitions so please educate me. if the dump port was blocked off disabling the regulator the pressure would go even higher which demonstrates that the regulator is not a resistance but an increase in the flow when needed and does nothing when not. does nothing well open mouth an insert foot! dude you are toast. if you say so. and ill gues that you forgot about the circuits i described before detailing where the pressure would go in lieu of a the proper dump. lol are those not the same circuits that the fluid already goes to anyway yes the additional flow would go to these circuits and increase the pressure beyond required limits which is what the regulator is there to prevent in the first place. without the proper dump the regulator would be ineffective which shows that the regulator is not a resistance like you want to believe it is instead a variable relief valve. hint the schematic shows all this. actually all it shows is that yu are wronng and it has been doing that since the beginning. lol ok....... btw with your seriously flawed assumptions that continue to grow bigger youll notice a marked decrease in the size of my posts. since its again become pointless to show your flawed reasoning and more of a merciful release of your ego before it is squashed ill let you make an ass of yourself by yourself. lol ok...... -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving . 222 281620 plyhc.28652$6m4.1205257@twister.southeast.rr.com tbone wrote for the typical street driven vehicle in the united states k&n isnt the best choice. once again you make statements with no basis in fact. hmm...tell us your facts as to why the k&n is the best choice for consumer vehicles. im new to this thread but i believe that the average consumer will not maintain a k&n filter properly. it takes a little knowledge to know when too much or too little oil is applied and making a mistake could be costly. they might be the greatest thing since sliced bread but i believe that they should only be used by people who are knowledgeable and are fully aware of the consequences of mishandling. the average consumer vehicle is not maintained by the owner and leaving the maintenance of a k&n filter to quickie oil change artists is not wise. i agree with this completely and like i said it is up to the consumer. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : mike simmons

tbone wrote for the typical street driven vehicle in the united states k&n isnt the best choice. once again you make statements with no basis in fact. hmm...tell us your facts as to why the k&n is the best choice for consumer vehicles. i didnt say that it was the best choice since that decision completely belongs to the individual. what i did say is that it will not harm your vehicle and those that claim that it will are almost always speaking from nothing more than rumor and personal opinion. mike made a point that at one time the k&n filter was below spec it is below spec!!! i stated that it wasnt mentioned specifically in the owners manual but in many tech training seminars i have attended conducted by chryco service engineers it was quite clearly stated that the k&n filters did not....... repeat did not meet chryco or cummins specs!!!!!..... how much more clearly can i state this!!!!!!! use this filter at your own peril!!! mike for the cummins although i dont know if that is still the case. since neither cummins or dc lists it as a no-use item specifically i doubt that it is still below spec but if it is either cummins or dc should be obligated to make that known and neither one are doing it. i have owned mine for 7 years and have not noticed any more dirt or oil in the throttle body then my buddy with his paper filters. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : paul jensen

i agree and that proves that using a k&n filter does not automatically void any warranties so that claim that it does is complete bs. i think the point is that if you have a k&n filter on your truck and if your engine gets messed up and if they find the engine to be full of crap sucked through the air filter you may have a hard time collecting on your warrenty. .

From : milesh

tbone wrote i didnt say that it was the best choice since that decision completely belongs to the individual. what i did say is that it will not harm your vehicle and those that claim that it will are almost always speaking from nothing more than rumor and personal opinion. mike made a point that at one time the k&n filter was below spec for the cummins although i dont know if that is still the case. since neither cummins or dc lists it as a no-use item specifically i doubt that it is still below spec but if it is either cummins or dc should be obligated to make that known and neither one are doing it. i have owned mine for 7 years and have not noticed any more dirt or oil in the throttle body then my buddy with his paper filters. most manufactures will not specifically name any aftermarket item that will void a warranty. the laws are written such that the burden of proof is on the manufacture to prove an aftermarket item caused damage to an otherwise warranted part. rather than name a particular brand of parts they just warn against use of certain types of aftermarket items. .

From : milesh

tbone wrote ok mike fair enough ill take your word for it. my question is then why doesnt dc or cummins state so if they know this to be true and how can k&n make the claim that it will not void your warrantee if it will. do cummins and dc just not give a shit about their customers and is k&n just lying i am not trying to bust your balls here or even argue with you i just want to know the answer and i hope that someone in one of these training seminars would have asked i would have. because dc or cummins cant state a k&n will void your warranty. there are laws against that. what they can say is that use of that type of filter may cause damage that is not covered. .

From : tbone

tbone wrote ok mike fair enough ill take your word for it. my question is then why doesnt dc or cummins state so if they know this to be true and how can k&n make the claim that it will not void your warrantee if it will. do cummins and dc just not give a shit about their customers and is k&n just lying i am not trying to bust your balls here or even argue with you i just want to know the answer and i hope that someone in one of these training seminars would have asked i would have. because dc or cummins cant state a k&n will void your warranty. there are laws against that. what they can say is that use of that type of filter may cause damage that is not covered. lol there is no law that states that. the law does say that if they make that claim that they need to be able to prove it which would indicate that they cant at least not on a general basis. by using the term may releases them from the legal responsibility to prove it before they say it but then forces then to prove it on a case by case basis before they can deny coverage. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

tbone wrote i didnt say that it was the best choice since that decision completely belongs to the individual. what i did say is that it will not harm your vehicle and those that claim that it will are almost always speaking from nothing more than rumor and personal opinion. mike made a point that at one time the k&n filter was below spec for the cummins although i dont know if that is still the case. since neither cummins or dc lists it as a no-use item specifically i doubt that it is still below spec but if it is either cummins or dc should be obligated to make that known and neither one are doing it. i have owned mine for 7 years and have not noticed any more dirt or oil in the throttle body then my buddy with his paper filters. most manufactures will not specifically name any aftermarket item that will void a warranty. the laws are written such that the burden of proof is on the manufacture to prove an aftermarket item caused damage to an otherwise warranted part. rather than name a particular brand of parts they just warn against use of certain types of aftermarket items. i agree and that proves that using a k&n filter does not automatically void any warranties so that claim that it does is complete bs. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : milesh

tbone wrote lol there is no law that states that. the law does say that if they make that claim that they need to be able to prove it which would indicate that they cant at least not on a general basis. by using the term may releases them from the legal responsibility to prove it before they say it but then forces then to prove it on a case by case basis before they can deny coverage. since they have to prove it on a case by case basis is exactly why they do not state an exact brand name. .

From : tbone

tbone wrote lol there is no law that states that. the law does say that if they make that claim that they need to be able to prove it which would indicate that they cant at least not on a general basis. by using the term may releases them from the legal responsibility to prove it before they say it but then forces then to prove it on a case by case basis before they can deny coverage. since they have to prove it on a case by case basis is exactly why they do not state an exact brand name. and is why using a k&n filter will not void your warrantee.so like i said claiming that it will is just bs. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : max340

lol care to explain why k&n refers to the size of particles in microns when it tests its cloth filters yawn and how else are they going to do it max i dunno you were the one that said microns were only used when paper filters were being tested. lol you really are a simple minded sorta guy. there are other ways to catch or block dirt besides the surface barrier method holes that a paper filter does. perhaps you should read exactly how the k$n works. well i suspect the k&n works like any other filter and blocks down to a certain micron rating of dirt. but hey you all think its much more wonderful. we arent comparing total volume we are comparing volume of dirt allowed to pass through. lol but the volume of dirt the filter lets in is directly rated to the total volume. so what if its directly rated to the total volume we still are not comparing the total volume of air and dirt we are comparing the amount of dirt that gets through. and any way you look at it it is still within the manufacturers specifications. id like to see proof of that please. lol like you ever provide any when asked. typical excuse. the simple fact is that they cannot say it will not void your warranty if it does and as mike pointed out at one time it was not within spec for the cummins diesel and did. so you were wrong or do you have proof you were right i would say that the ones for the cummins and the racing series are more likely in the 99% got proof but even the 97% is still at or above manufacturers spec or they could not claim that it will not void your warranty. so have you got proof max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

1 any performance part is just that any. yes it is but people in here specify the k&n filter as an automatic void of the warranty just for using it and if that were so cummins or dc is obligated to notify its customers of such a situation. um yeah by saying any they have done exactly that. 2 difficult to prove or not cummins as does any manufacturer reserves the right to deny warranty coverage if they see fit. lol not without proof and like you said its hard to do. they dont have to prove anything except that the consumer violated the terms of the warranty and when they say any performance equipment they generally mean any performance equipment. 3 k&n is a performance product on a cummins as they are not offered from the factory. lol that could be applied to any air filter other than the factory supplied make. bingo. if the filter is oiled properly there will be no excess oil describe proper oiling and guarantee it will happen on every filter. read the box that the recharge kit comes in. as for the guarantee there is no guarantee on anything done by the customer. exactly so the engine company doesnt have to guarantee an engine with a k&n in its filter box if they find it caused the problem. the excess is the stuff that gets through a k&n that wouldnt get through the approved filter a foam and paper element. as long as it is below manufacturers specs it is not considered excess. what were those specs im sure that weith all the references you make to them you must know what they are after all they can prove or disprove this bs you are swimming in. object that wil lspin at 50000 rpm doesnt need excess dirt oil or residue altering its balance or efficiency. never said that it did but the simple fact is that it will have to deal with such things in a real world environment in a moving vehicle. only if the air filter is junk. then it doesnt belong on a motor vehicle. prove it. prove what exactly you havent a clue since you cant even follow your own lame statements. yes you did. you made the claim of an automatic warranty voiding by using them i dont recall claiming an automatic warranty voiding but i think the case is plainly stated by what mike simmons posted. as for no improvement in performance as you like to say prove it. i dont have to you have already stated that your truck proved there was no improvement in performance. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : ss

ill remember that when i move to africa........fat friggin chance of that. until then i dont think that i have an issue in dallas. hell theres pavement in 70 miles in every direction from here.....no dirt or dust. oem paper works just fine for me. hard for dc to try and deny a claim when im using their filers. on wed 21 apr 2004 000931 gmt nospam.clare.nce@snyder.on.ca wrote on 20 apr 2004 162553 edt milesh milesh@nounwantedspam.com wrote tbone wrote lol do you really think that they art rebuilding them because of the air filter oh geez. no thats not the reason. you are trying to suggest that whats good for a racer must be good for a consumer. that is absurd logic. any of you nay-sayers ever drive in sub-sahara africa try driving anything through burkina faso. or botswana. or zambia. the only thing that works is an oiled guaze filter. or oil bath a paper filter becomes a choke in no time as it is strictly a surface filter. oiled guaze is a depth filter equivalent in filter area to a paper filter over 10 times the volume. addition of a pre-cleaner centrifuge extends the filter life a whole lot regardless which filter you use. like a donovan i had the original oil path filter on my beetle in zambia. it was 23 years old when i left it there. my peugot had an oil bath filter from a vw combi. the k&n is the filter of choice on land cruisers etc in burkina today. .

From : max340

i said no such thing. i said that your larger micron holes only applies to paper. so the cotton gauze filter has no holes/passages in it it does pass air doesnt it those openings/holes are how many microns wide thats the problem max not all filters work the same way and it really doesnt matter what i think thats right it doesnt. fact is fact and your bullshit is your bullshit. and the amount of dirt that gets through is directly related to the total volume. great but we arent comparing the total volume. if the paper filter bslocks just about all of it then a 50% increase from that is still just about nothing. just about nothing got a president elected. 50% more is still 50% more no matter how ya cut it. so you were wrong or do you have proof you were right dont know so you were wrong. if the k&n was proven to be below spec then the manufacturer of the engine could declare the k&n unfit for their engine and void the warranty provided their filter was consistantly within the spec that they claimed and could prove was required. woops look at that they need to prove the spec as valid too. i guess that it sucks to be the manufacturer sometimes. i guess it sucks to be you grasping at bs to avoid providing proof. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

mike made a point that at one time the k&n filter was below spec for the cummins although i dont know if that is still the case. so you dont know since neither cummins or dc lists it as a no-use item specifically i doubt that it is still below spec but if it is so you dont know i have owned mine for 7 years and have not noticed any more dirt or oil in the throttle body then my buddy with his paper filters. maybe all the dirt is trapped in the top compression ring land max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

ok mike fair enough ill take your word for it. lol thats a change arent ya gonna ask him for proof my question is then why doesnt dc or cummins state so if they know this to be true um... he has said twice now that they do state this. and how can k&n make the claim that it will not void your warrantee if it will. i doubt k&n has ever made such a claim. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : tbone

little too often anymore. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving . 222 281652 euehc.28821$6m4.1262341@twister.southeast.rr.com lol care to explain why k&n refers to the size of particles in microns when it tests its cloth filters yawn and how else are they going to do it max i dunno you were the one that said microns were only used when paper filters were being tested. i said no such thing. i said that your larger micron holes only applies to paper. lol you really are a simple minded sorta guy. there are other ways to catch or block dirt besides the surface barrier method holes that a paper filter does. perhaps you should read exactly how the k$n works. well i suspect the k&n works like any other filter and blocks down to a certain micron rating of dirt. but hey you all think its much more wonderful. thats the problem max not all filters work the same way and it really doesnt matter what i think fact is fact. we arent comparing total volume we are comparing volume of dirt allowed to pass through. lol but the volume of dirt the filter lets in is directly rated to the total volume. so what if its directly rated to the total volume we still are not comparing the total volume of air and dirt we are comparing the amount of dirt that gets through. and the amount of dirt that gets through is directly related to the total volume. if the paper filter bslocks just about all of it then a 50% increase from that is still just about nothing. and any way you look at it it is still within the manufacturers specifications. id like to see proof of that please. lol like you ever provide any when asked. typical excuse. yep and one that you taught me to use at that. the simple fact is that they cannot say it will not void your warranty if it does and as mike pointed out at one time it was not within spec for the cummins diesel and did. so you were wrong or do you have proof you were right dont know i would say that the ones for the cummins and the racing series are more likely in the 99% got proof nope and neither do you. but even the 97% is still at or above manufacturers spec or they could not claim that it will not void your warranty. so have you got proof if the k&n was proven to be below spec then the manufacturer of the engine could declare the k&n unfit for their engine and void the warranty provided their filter was consistantly within the spec that they claimed and could prove was required. woops look at that they need to prove the spec as valid too. i guess that it sucks to be the manufacturer sometimes. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

ok mike fair enough ill take your word for it. lol thats a change arent ya gonna ask him for proof i dont need to. he doesnt bs and spin like you do to the point that it is impossible to tell when he is telling the truth. my question is then why doesnt dc or cummins state so if they know this to be true um... he has said twice now that they do state this. oh really where show me a link from either site that makes that specific claim. and how can k&n make the claim that it will not void your warrantee if it will. i doubt k&n has ever made such a claim. better go read on their site. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

tbone wrote and is why using a k&n filter will not void your warrantee.so like i said claiming that it will is just bs. i never made such a claim. .

From : tbone

tbone wrote and is why using a k&n filter will not void your warrantee.so like i said claiming that it will is just bs. i never made such a claim. lol i didnt say that you did but it was said twice in this thread. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : mike simmons

tbone wrote for the typical street driven vehicle in the united states k&n isnt the best choice. once again you make statements with no basis in fact. hmm...tell us your facts as to why the k&n is the best choice for consumer vehicles. i didnt say that it was the best choice since that decision completely belongs to the individual. what i did say is that it will not harm your vehicle and those that claim that it will are almost always speaking from nothing more than rumor and personal opinion. mike made a point that at one time the k&n filter was below spec it is below spec!!! i stated that it wasnt mentioned specifically in the owners manual but in many tech training seminars i have attended conducted by chryco service engineers it was quite clearly stated that the k&n filters did not....... repeat did not meet chryco or cummins specs!!!!!..... how much more clearly can i state this!!!!!!! use this filter at your own peril!!! mike ok mike fair enough ill take your word for it. my question is then why doesnt dc or cummins state so if they know this to be true and how can k&n make the claim that it will not void your warrantee if it will. do cummins and dc just not give a shit about their customers and is k&n just lying i am not trying to bust your balls here or even argue with you i just want to know the answer and i hope that someone in one of these training seminars would have asked i would have. ok.... d/c and cummins cant be aware of every aftermarket item than can possibly be added to their product nor should they. they cant possibly test every aftermarket accessory for sompliance with their specs nor should they. if they were lets say to specify that filters x y and z are harmful to your vehicle and you used filter v and it was harmful unbeknownst to d/c and cummins it would possibly create liability of their part under since you werent warned specifically about this filter. in spite of their best efforts the engineers cannot antipate some of the stupid stuff people do to their vehicles they can however warn you that a performance filter may cause damage to your engine and if that is the case the necessary repairs will not be covered under the provisions of their warranty. hope this clarifies my previous post. mike -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : paul jensen

ok.... d/c and cummins cant be aware of every aftermarket item than can possibly be added to their product nor should they. they cant possibly test every aftermarket accessory for sompliance with their specs nor should they. if they were lets say to specify that filters x y and z are harmful to your vehicle and you used filter v and it was harmful unbeknownst to d/c and cummins it would possibly create liability of their part under since you werent warned specifically about this filter. in spite of their best efforts the engineers cannot antipate some of the stupid stuff people do to their vehicles they can however warn you that a performance filter may cause damage to your engine and if that is the case the necessary repairs will not be covered under the provisions of their warranty. of course this would only make sense. what about products that were introduced after the vehicle was made and the manual written would the manufacturer need to mail us a monthly update about what new products are harmful for the vehicle if you try to list all the items that may cause uncovered damage to your vehicle you are then implying that anything not on the list is o.k.. no company in the world is going to open themselves up to such a potential liability. .

From : max340

and how can k&n make the claim that it will not void your warrantee if it will. i doubt k&n has ever made such a claim. better go read on their site. better go read the mm act. then you ought to know that the mm act does not protect you if you fail to use a part that is below standard specification. mm prohibits requiring a name make or brand but says nothing about failing to meet required specs. if you fail to meet the standard they can and will void the warranty if that part no matter who makes it fails spec. iow while it appears they claim that their filter does not void the warranty that is in name only and they say nothing of the spec. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : tbone

i agree and that proves that using a k&n filter does not automatically void any warranties so that claim that it does is complete bs. i think the point is that if you have a k&n filter on your truck and if your engine gets messed up and if they find the engine to be full of crap sucked through the air filter you may have a hard time collecting on your warrenty. well that goes for just about any change made to the engine by the consumer and i have no problem with that provided they can actually prove it. but a few have suggested that even the presence of it will void the warranty and that is simply not true. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

and how can k&n make the claim that it will not void your warrantee if it will. i doubt k&n has ever made such a claim. better go read on their site. better go read the mm act. then you ought to know that the mm act does not protect you if you fail to use a part that is below standard specification. only if it is proven to be the cause of the failure. mm prohibits requiring a name make or brand but says nothing about failing to meet required specs. if you fail to meet the standard they can and will void the warranty if that part no matter who makes it fails spec. nope only if it is proven to be the cause of the failure and i have no problem with that at all. iow while it appears they claim that their filter does not void the warranty that is in name only and they say nothing of the spec. they also seem to claim that they are certified in all 50 states and make it clear that they cannot void the warranty even if a certified part fails although i would be the first one to say that seems like a shady area of the law to me. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : steve w

i dont want to reopen a can of work again but i dont remenber the whole argument against k&n filters. if you have a properly maintened k&n filter can it cause any damage to the engine. i have spoke to my dealer and thaey have no problem with me installing it and neither does dc. i am looking for opinions for both sides of the fench not an argument over k&n. kevin here is a nice post about k&n from another list. the first item is from gm. there is also a real world test in there and the other links go to some ford items that show that ford doesnt like the k&n either. do not use a k&n ford and gm are voiding warranties on vehicles that are using them. both have issued notices about them. also a few studies have shown that the k&n let much more dirt and dust through than any paper element. info - automatic transmission shift engine driveability concerns or service engine soon ses light on as a result of the installation of an aftermarket reusable excessively oiled air filter #04-07-30-013 - 03/05/2004 automatic transmission shift engine driveability concerns or service engine soon ses light on as a result of the installation of an aftermarket reusable excessively oiled air filter 2004 and prior cars and light duty trucks 2003-2004 hummer h2 first inspect the vehicle for a reusable aftermarket oiled air filter do not repair under warranty if concerns result from the use of a reusable aftermarket oiled air filter. the installation of an aftermarket reusable oiled air filter may result in a.. service engine soon ses light on b.. transmission shift concerns slipping and damaged clutches or bands c.. engine driveability concerns poor acceleration from a stop limited engine rpm range the oil that is used on these air filter elements may be transferred onto the mass air flow maf sensor causing contamination of the sensor. as a result the grams per second gps signal from the maf may be low and any or all of the concerns listed above may occur. when servicing a vehicle with any of these concerns be sure to check for the presence of an aftermarket reusable excessively oiled air filter. the maf gps reading should be compared to a like vehicle with a oem air box and filter under the same driving conditions to verify the concern. transmission or engine driveability concerns that are the result of the installation of an aftermarket reusable excessively oiled air filter are not considered to be warrantable repair items. subj k & n filters john if i wrote subjective i meant objective.. i was responsible for evaluating re-usable air filters for a major construction/mining company that had hundreds of vehicles ranging from large earthmovers to pick-up trucks and salesmens cars. this study was embarked upon due to the fact that we were spending upwards of $30000 a month on paper air filters. using them one time then throwing them away.. i inititated the study in that i was convinced that a k&n type filter or oiled foam would save us many dollars per year in filter savings man hour savings and of course engines as these would filter dirt better than paper. yes i had read the k&n ads and was a believer representative test units were chosen to give us a broad spectrum from cars right through large front end loaders. with each unit we had a long history of oil analysis records so that changes would be trackable. unfortunately for me every single unit having alternative re-usable air cleaners showed an immediate large jump in silicon dirt levels with corresponding major increases in wear metals. in one extreme case a unit with a primary and secondary air cleaner the secondary small paper element clogged before even one days test run could be completed. this particular unit had a cummins v-12 engine that had paper/paper one one bank and k&n/paper on the other bank; two completely independent induction systems. the conditions were exactly duplicated for each bank yet the k&n allowed so much dirt to pass through that the small filter became clogged before lunch. the same outcome occured with oiled foams on this unit. we discontinued the tests on the large pieces almost immediately but continued with service trucks formens vehicles and my own company car. analysis results continued showing markedly increased wear rates for all the vehicles mine included. test concluded switched back to paper/glass and all vehicles showed reduction back to near original levels of both wear metals and dirt. i continued with the k&n on my company car out of stubborness and at 85000 miles the chevy 305 v-8 wheezed its last breath. the top end was sanded badly; bottom end was just fine. end of test. i must stress that everyone involved in this test was hoping that alternative filters would work as everyone was sick about pulling out a perfectly good $85 air cleaner and throwing 4 of them away each week per machine.

From : tbone

really i think that you should re-read the posts from steve w. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving i agree and that proves that using a k&n filter does not automatically void any warranties so that claim that it does is complete bs. no one has claimed anything of the sort. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : tbone

i said no such thing. i said that your larger micron holes only applies to paper. so the cotton gauze filter has no holes/passages in it a hole and a passage are two verry different things in a filter. it does pass air doesnt it yes it does but it does not filter by the surface barrier method like a paper filter does. those openings/holes are how many microns wide they vary in both filters. thats the problem max not all filters work the same way and it really doesnt matter what i think thats right it doesnt. fact is fact and your bullshit is your bullshit. and as usual you just dont understand. and the amount of dirt that gets through is directly related to the total volume. great but we arent comparing the total volume. but we need to. do you really think that every micronic particle of dirt that gets past the filter actually causes damage if the paper filter bslocks just about all of it then a 50% increase from that is still just about nothing. just about nothing got a president elected. 50% more is still 50% more no matter how ya cut it. but percentages are relative and in an extreme environment that 1% would probably make a difference but for the average vehicle in normal city traffic it doesnt. so you were wrong or do you have proof you were right dont know so you were wrong. lol are you really that desperate since when doen not knowing make someone wrong. if the k&n was proven to be below spec then the manufacturer of the engine could declare the k&n unfit for their engine and void the warranty provided their filter was consistantly within the spec that they claimed and could prove was required. woops look at that they need to prove the spec as valid too. i guess that it sucks to be the manufacturer sometimes. i guess it sucks to be you grasping at bs to avoid providing proof. what straws would that be -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

1 any performance part is just that any. yes it is but people in here specify the k&n filter as an automatic void of the warranty just for using it and if that were so cummins or dc is obligated to notify its customers of such a situation. um yeah by saying any they have done exactly that. not really since any part that is not factory can be considered a performance part. 2 difficult to prove or not cummins as does any manufacturer reserves the right to deny warranty coverage if they see fit. lol not without proof and like you said its hard to do. they dont have to prove anything except that the consumer violated the terms of the warranty and when they say any performance equipment they generally mean any performance equipment. that is against the law max. perhaps you should re-read those laws. 3 k&n is a performance product on a cummins as they are not offered from the factory. lol that could be applied to any air filter other than the factory supplied make. bingo. but they still need to prove cause read the law. if the filter is oiled properly there will be no excess oil describe proper oiling and guarantee it will happen on every filter. read the box that the recharge kit comes in. as for the guarantee there is no guarantee on anything done by the customer. exactly so the engine company doesnt have to guarantee an engine with a k&n in its filter box if they find it caused the problem. of course not but they need to prove that it caused the problems. object that wil lspin at 50000 rpm doesnt need excess dirt oil or residue altering its balance or efficiency. never said that it did but the simple fact is that it will have to deal with such things in a real world environment in a moving vehicle. only if the air filter is junk. lol wrong. any filter including a paper one only filters a % of the dirt. the amount of crap entering the engine will increase or decrease depending on the outside environment and in a moving vehicle that can change at any time. then it doesnt belong on a motor vehicle. prove it. prove what exactly you havent a clue since you cant even follow your own lame statements. and you as usual cant answer it yourself. yes you did. you made the claim of an automatic warranty voiding by using them i dont recall claiming an automatic warranty voiding but i think the case is plainly stated by what mike simmons posted. i believe that is happened in one of your initial posts to this thread. as for no improvement in performance as you like to say prove it. i dont have to you have already stated that your truck proved there was no improvement in performance. i believe that i also said that i had nothing to compare it to since the k&n was installed at the very beginning. i will agree that there is no radical performance improvement at least no ton my truck but i cannot claim no improvement at all. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : redneck tookover hell

and as usual you just dont understand. actually we do lardass most people in here understand very well politics the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich. .

From : redneck tookover hell

he doesnt bs and spin like you do to the point that it is impossible to tell when he is telling the truth. unlike youlardass who is constantly spiining and grasping at straws politics the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich. .

From : the guy

on 22 apr 2004 193331 gmt mopar440@aol.comnet.org redneck tookover hell wrote he doesnt bs and spin like you do to the point that it is impossible to tell when he is telling the truth. unlike youlardass who is constantly spiining and grasping at straws lardass come on thats the best you got once again redneck known by many as littlepussy proves his stupidity. politics the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich. .

From : max340

so the cotton gauze filter has no holes/passages in it a hole and a passage are two verry different things in a filter. lol only if you magnify it more. it does pass air doesnt it yes it does but it does not filter by the surface barrier method like a paper filter does. who gives a shit it still filters to a certain micron size particle. those openings/holes are how many microns wide they vary in both filters. so both paper and cotton gauze do use a micron measurement great but we arent comparing the total volume. but we need to. why im worreid about the dirt getting in not the stuff kept out. do you really think that every micronic particle of dirt that gets past the filter actually causes damage each one has that potential. but percentages are relative and in an extreme environment that 1% would probably make a difference but for the average vehicle in normal city traffic it doesnt. great then feel free to run a k&n. kinda what i said before. here are the numbers. if you are ok with those numbers feel free to suck in the extra dirt. if not dont run a k&n. lol are you really that desperate since when doen not knowing make someone wrong. when they initially claimed ot know it and were proven otherwise that makes them wrong. otoh if you would just once own up to it and say well shit i didnt know that youd be back to being right. of course all you want to do is scream prove it after youve been served the proof. that makes you wrong. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

better go read the mm act. then you ought to know that the mm act does not protect you if you fail to use a part that is below standard specification. only if it is proven to be the cause of the failure. very true but as weve noted the k&n doesnt meet the spec and that is potential proof that it could cause a failure. once again it goes to individual claims. do you want ot be one of those individual claims or play it safe or are you willing to risk it they also seem to claim that they are certified in all 50 states and make it clear that they cannot void the warranty even if a certified part fails although i would be the first one to say that seems like a shady area of the law to me. um yeah kinda like i said...... max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

well that goes for just about any change made to the engine by the consumer and i have no problem with that provided they can actually prove it. but a few have suggested that even the presence of it will void the warranty and that is simply not true. lol if your rings fail and the truck has seen dusty conditions and the k&n doesnt meet spec its very existance under the hood will be enough to deny warranty. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

really i think that you should re-read the posts from steve w. 1 he posted that after i posted my claim that no one had said it automatically voided the warranty. 2 it says nothing about k&n specifically something that you should know since youve argued that point before. 3 none of the complaints were related to dust or dirt passage but instead to screwing up a sensor reading with excess oil. thus proof that the filter was the cause is almost immediate and very obvious. love the spin first you whine that people are claiming something they havent then cheer when they actually make the claim. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

um yeah by saying any they have done exactly that. not really since any part that is not factory can be considered a performance part. exactly...... you dont get it do you they dont have to prove anything except that the consumer violated the terms of the warranty and when they say any performance equipment they generally mean any performance equipment. that is against the law max. perhaps you should re-read those laws. no its not. there is no law against specifying a standard to follow and voiding warranty if its not followed. the law is against applying a standard only to promote profitability. iow it is perfectly acceptable when referring to warranty issues to say use only filters meeting mopar specifications it is not acceptable to say use only mopar filters or would you prefer to define the lol that could be applied to any air filter other than the factory supplied make. bingo. but they still need to prove cause read the law. never said they didnt. but if they prove it itll apply to any filter. only if the air filter is junk. lol wrong. any filter including a paper one only filters a % of the dirt. the amount of crap entering the engine will increase or decrease depending on the outside environment and in a moving vehicle that can change at any time. yup and a good airfilter will keep the levels of dirt ingested to an acceptable level. i believe that i also said that i had nothing to compare it to since the k&n was installed at the very beginning. i will agree that there is no radical performance improvement at least no ton my truck but i cannot claim no improvement at all. you cannot claim much of anything at this point...... max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : yonzie

milesh@nounwantedspam.com wrote tbone wrote i didnt say that it was the best choice since that decision completely belongs to the individual. what i did say is that it will not harm your vehicle and those that claim that it will are almost always speaking from nothing more than rumor and personal opinion. mike made a point that at one time the k&n filter was below spec for the cummins although i dont know if that is still the case. since neither cummins or dc lists it as a no-use item specifically i doubt that it is still below spec but if it is either cummins or dc should be obligated to make that known and neither one are doing it. i have owned mine for 7 years and have not noticed any more dirt or oil in the throttle body then my buddy with his paper filters. most manufactures will not specifically name any aftermarket item that will void a warranty. the laws are written such that the burden of proof is on the manufacture to prove an aftermarket item caused damage to an otherwise warranted part. rather than name a particular brand of parts they just warn against use of certain types of aftermarket items. ok now if k&n is so great why arent there any automakers that have them installed in their vehicles from the assembly plant dale .

From : roy

milesh milesh@nounwantedspam.com wrote tbone wrote for a while a few did on there performance cars but it is not profitable to put them on all of their cars. what maker used k$n on their performance cars .

From : redneck tookover hell

i see sf pussy is back whats the matter the boner get tired of you hanging out and told you to go play in the street politics the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich. .

From : roy

i dont want to reopen a can of work again but i dont remenber the whole argument against k&n filters. if you have a properly maintened k&n filter can it cause any damage to the engine. i have spoke to my dealer and thaey have no problem with me installing it and neither does dc. i am looking for opinions for both sides of the fench not an argument over k&n. kevin permit me to stir the shit a little. does anybody really believe that most who buy these things do so for the filtering ability they buy them imho because they fall for the horsepower gains that are claimed. a great marketing ploy. id venture most under 30 drivers of mustangs have a k$n and a set of flows on it. all set up for sonic drags. the same im pretty sure applies to the ricers as well. ya can jam yer dirt particles it is all about perceived speed. gbmfg roy roy .

From : the guy

on 22 apr 2004 223717 gmt mopar440@aol.comnet.org redneck tookover hell wrote i see sf pussy is back whats the matter the boner get tired of you hanging out and told you to go play in the street sigh. a mind is such a terrible thing to waste. if you had one it would be a waste. politics the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich. .

From : cbhvac stephen

a paper filter becomes a choke in no time as it is strictly a surface filter. which proves that the paper filter is not only doing the job but catching more. it proves no such thing it only proves the inneffency of a paper filter. ok..for the sake of arguement...lets look at this... and for the record i think i have said this before..but what the hell.. filters..when you are talking about automotive or even yes...gasp...something related to my trade..hvac...paper is the prefered filter if and only if you are looking for the best in filtration. both applications depend on the best filtration you can get. the filters in both cases have to do a couple of things...one not create a restriction in the airflow and two stop dirt. in all cases a clean brand new filter will not filter as well as a slightly dirty one. since we are talking about k-n and paper here in automotive we will compare fiberglass vs paper in a real world setting...your home. for years people have used the cheap 30 day throwaway fiberglass filters in systems that actually flow more air in some cases than your car in a day...in the dirtist of enviroments...your home. far and large we see on a daily basis what this fiberglass filter allows....it allows up to 70% of the dirt in the home to pass through it and be deposited upon the a coil and ductwork. to overcome this a spray was created that you spray on the fiberglass making each fiber a dust magnet. when applied correctly it then increases the efficientcy to about 55% when new increasing the filtration as it gets dirty. fiberglass filters also have the least amount of static resistance...or to compare it to automotive in terms most understand...the least restriction in the airflow. then there are the new state of the art filters that everyone thinks are too restrictive...the electrostatic..not the electronic ones...the electrostatic ones.. perhaps a better choice however unless the system was set up for it they can create other issues....so they are not the best choice for everyone... then the new super duper replacement for the electrostatics....the filter that is the best bang for the buck...the filter that is used in hepa and other applications... paper. pleated paper.. starts off at about 78% and gets better to about 97%. has much more surface area can be dirt loaded more and some are designed to be replaced every 12 months... systems that use paper filters have less chances of dss or dirty sock syndrome where the coil is so covered in dirt and bacteria that you get a funky odor when the system starts...systems can be run at a lower static pressure when using paper due to the reduced retriction and run better.less service is required on systems that use these...and in most cases they are demanded by those that want the best in filtration. the case being made here is that a typical ac unit or furnace is much more sensitive to changes in air supply than a vehicle engine yet paper suposedly the most restrictive filter made is the filter of choice by those that understand filtration issues. a typical automotive filter on a basically stock engine will flow more air than the engine will ever require....when i say basically stock i mean with even what some would consider extensive mods...since most this day and age think a new intake is worth at least 100hp...when they have no clue. performace gains are directly related to the pocketbook. the more you spend unless you understand that speed costs money you need to figure out how fast you want to go....the faster the vehicle feels...to you. while a k+n filter just might personally i have never seen a real seat of the pants gain anytime i have used or tried one add a couple of hp to a vehicle a plain paper filter will add that much if not more if the factory filter you are replacing is in need of replacement anyway. k+n filters do indeed allow more dirt into the engine and depending on conditions this might be a bad thing. since no one can control each vehicles runing condition and how each particle of dirt will pass through an engine if the vehicle will run fine on a standard paper filter it just makes sense to filter things the best you can. engines will fail..no matter what filter you run....its not a question of if but when. with todays engine tolerances being what they are it just makes sense to not allow anymore air than needed to pass unfiltered. as far as proof...when someone does a real world test under every possible condition then the proof can be on paper..but right now all one has to do is look around and see all the 3 to 5 year old imports running around with fart can mufflers on them that smoke oil smoke at takeoff and continue to blow it till they get to speed...thats a sure sign 99% of the time of worn rings..and under the hood of those little rice rockets...term used with severe sarcasm there sits a cai with a k+n off to the side. each a

From : tbone

milesh@nounwantedspam.com wrote tbone wrote i didnt say that it was the best choice since that decision completely belongs to the individual. what i did say is that it will not harm your vehicle and those that claim that it will are almost always speaking from nothing more than rumor and personal opinion. mike made a point that at one time the k&n filter was below spec for the cummins although i dont know if that is still the case. since neither cummins or dc lists it as a no-use item specifically i doubt that it is still below spec but if it is either cummins or dc should be obligated to make that known and neither one are doing it. i have owned mine for 7 years and have not noticed any moredirt or oil in the throttle body then my buddy with his paper filters. most manufactures will not specifically name any aftermarket item that will void a warranty. the laws are written such that the burden of proof is on the manufacture to prove an aftermarket item caused damage to an otherwise warranted part. rather than name a particular brand of parts they just warn against use of certain types of aftermarket items. ok now if k&n is so great why arent there any automakers that have them installed in their vehicles from the assembly plant dale for a while a few did on there performance cars but it is not profitable to put them on all of their cars. k&n is not going to charge gm a whole lot less for the filter than it is going to charge you so why would any automaker put such an expensive filter on the car when they can install one for 1/100 of the cost to them that does as well. they dont have the expense of having to change paper filters every 10000 miles and actually they hope to make more money changing them for customers at the customers cost. then with any oiled filter you really kinda need to know what you are doing when you clean and recharge it which is another pita for people that dont want to be bothered or dont know how. like many have said an oiled filter is not for everybody. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : denny

tires on. id be more than happy to enlighten you. as this is the only enlightenment your chubby arse will get. the factory tires are good for trail riding and thats about it.the larger more aggressive tires were added to provide traction in mud and soft terrain. not to mention the added flotation and weight rating that you needed. oh mounted those tires on aluminum rimssee im helping ya. the less weight of the atv the more you can put on the seat... the skid plates are a must if you are going to actually use the machine in water or other conditions where you cant see what you are going over a smaller gut would help ya out with the visability problems.. also rock climbing and log jumping. you must have a helluva running start for this.. the factory ones are small and beer can like. regarding sues atv i moved the plow to hers as it would not mount with the skid plates on mine. with a figure like sues i would really doubt that she would need skid pans. also she does not have the upper body strength of course not. she doesnt have your portly pysique sp to lug around. as yet to handle the machine with larger tires for a extended period of time. i will mention your concerns to her though im sure she will be appreciative. im sure she will. she is a very nice lady. hows that for sucking up maybe a few chocolate chip cookies maybe i can just picture ya rubbing your pudgy little hands together in anticipation of the cheap shots ya can get out of this. have fun! i did and am anxiously awaiting your rebutal........ on a side note the docs sprung my brother today. he should be home in a couple of hours. denny bfg roy vbg denny the hell with ya and the line lock!! g roy politics the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from the rich. . 222 281790 tqfic.21$gp.11@fe1.columbus.rr.com milesh milesh@nounwantedspam.com wrote tbone wrote i didnt say that it was the best choice since that decision completely belongs to the individual. what i did say is that it will not harm your vehicle and those that claim that it will are almost always speaking from nothing more than rumor and personal opinion. mike made a point that at one time the k&n filter was below spec for the cummins although i dont know if that is still the case. since neither cummins or dc lists it as a no-use item specifically i doubt that it is still below spec but if it is either cummins or dc should be obligated to make that known and neither one are doing it. i have owned mine for 7 years and have not noticed any more dirt or oil in the throttle body then my buddy with his paper filters. most manufactures will not specifically name any aftermarket item that will void a warranty. the laws are written such that the burden of proof is on the manufacture to prove an aftermarket item caused damage to an otherwise warranted part. rather than name a particular brand of parts they just warn against use of certain types of aftermarket items. ok now if k&n is so great why arent there any automakers that have them installed in their vehicles from the assembly plant dale for a while a few did on there performance cars but it is not profitable to put them on all of their cars. k&n is not going to charge gm a whole lot less for the filter than it is going to charge you so why would any automaker put such an expensive filter on the car when they can install one for 1/100 of the cost to them that does as well. did i read this right you say that a paper filter will do just as well as a k&n for 1/100 of the cost denny they dont have the expense of having to change paper filters every 10000 miles and actually they hope to make more money changing them for customers at the customers cost. then with any oiled filter you really kinda need to know what you are doing when you clean and recharge it which is another pita for people that dont want to be bothered or dont know how. like many have said an oiled filter is not for everybody. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : Annonymous

on 21 apr 2004 005037 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote a paper filter becomes a choke in no time as it is strictly a surface filter. which proves that the paper filter is not only doing the job but catching more. it proves no such thing. forget cars for a minute. look at hvac filters. the cheap filter is the pleated paper filter. the air must go through holes in the filter which can not stop anything much smaller than the size of that hole. when the hole has stopped a piece of dirt it is plugged reducing the total airflow capacity of the filter. generally they trap anything large enough to be seen or felt. a spun glass type filter also passes air through the spaces between the strands - holes if you like. these holes are much larger with very little effort you can put a pencil through the filter without damaging anything. the dirt gets caught on the strands of fiber as it twists around trying to get through the filter and the filter holds a lot more dirt before it becomes restricted. it is effective in filtering even smaller particles than the pleated paper filter. an electrrostatic non powered filter develops an electrostatic charge from the airflow causing the very fine dust particles to be attracted to the filter medium - and even catches sub-micron stuff like virii. and smoke particles. yet you can shine a light through the filter these filters can be washed - and although you might not get them 100% clean you will remove well over 95% of the contaminants caught by the filter. now back to car air filters. they work the same - but the third type is not electrostatic - it attracts the very fine dirt particles to the strands of the filter with a very thin sticky coating of oil. - and as a fuzzy layer of dust builds up on the oily strand it actually gets better at snagging the fine stuff rushing past. in short it works a bit more like flypaper and less like screen in catching flies. a whole curtain of flypaper across the window. bad analogy but a functional one. oiled guaze is a depth filter equivalent in filter area to a paper filter over 10 times the volume. which proves that washing a k&n will never remove all the dirt. addition of a pre-cleaner centrifuge extends the filter life a whole lot regardless which filter you use. great but those wont fit under the hood of most vehicles. i had the original oil path filter on my beetle in zambia. it was 23 years old when i left it there. so what if it was running great thats something else. the k&n is the filter of choice on land cruisers etc in burkina today. all youve proven is that different conditions require different maintenance techniques. for the typical street driven vehicle in the united states k&n isnt the best choice. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : the guy

on fri 23 apr 2004 215902 gmt nospam.clare.nce@snyder.on.ca wrote on 21 apr 2004 005037 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote a paper filter becomes a choke in no time as it is strictly a surface filter. which proves that the paper filter is not only doing the job but catching more. it proves no such thing. forget cars for a minute. look at hvac filters. the cheap filter is the pleated paper filter. the air must go through holes in the filter which can not stop anything much smaller than the size of that hole. when the hole has stopped a piece of dirt it is plugged reducing the total airflow capacity of the filter. generally they trap anything large enough to be seen or felt. a spun glass type filter also passes air through the spaces between the strands - holes if you like. these holes are much larger with very little effort you can put a pencil through the filter without damaging anything. the dirt gets caught on the strands of fiber as it twists around trying to get through the filter and the filter holds a lot more dirt before it becomes restricted. it is effective in filtering even smaller particles than the pleated paper filter. an electrrostatic non powered filter develops an electrostatic charge from the airflow causing the very fine dust particles to be attracted to the filter medium - and even catches sub-micron stuff like virii. and smoke particles. yet you can shine a light through the filter these filters can be washed - and although you might not get them 100% clean you will remove well over 95% of the contaminants caught by the filter. now back to car air filters. they work the same - but the third type is not electrostatic - it attracts the very fine dirt particles to the strands of the filter with a very thin sticky coating of oil. - and as a fuzzy layer of dust builds up on the oily strand it actually gets better at snagging the fine stuff rushing past. in short it works a bit more like flypaper and less like screen in catching flies. a whole curtain of flypaper across the window. bad analogy but a functional one. now youve gone and done it. this is really going to heat up the debate and piss off the geniuss like max and his dumber brother red. what in the world got into you to convince you to introduce actual facts into this debate oiled guaze is a depth filter equivalent in filter area to a paper filter over 10 times the volume. which proves that washing a k&n will never remove all the dirt. addition of a pre-cleaner centrifuge extends the filter life a whole lot regardless which filter you use. great but those wont fit under the hood of most vehicles. i had the original oil path filter on my beetle in zambia. it was 23 years old when i left it there. so what if it was running great thats something else. the k&n is the filter of choice on land cruisers etc in burkina today. all youve proven is that different conditions require different maintenance techniques. for the typical street driven vehicle in the united states k&n isnt the best choice. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : the guy

on 24 apr 2004 005317 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote my guess is that they wouldnt sell anything as an after market mod if it would void the warranty. you guess wrong. anyone will sell anything that makes them a profit regardless of the warranty on your vehicle or your liability for damage legality etc. oh for crying out loud. ok max you idiot you have made the accusation now. put up or shut up. how many law suits or claims against k&n how many law suits or claims against k&n were successful i will throw you a bone here you fool you can include any case where k&n settled as successful. how many warrantys were voided due to the use of a k&n now dont try to throw this back on me you moron. you made the claim come up with some proof. if you cant then just go hide and shut the fuck up because your claims are just hot air from an absolute idiot. dont say you cant find it max you village clown because everything that i have asked you for is public rocord. if you try to spin this or refuse to answer you lose. the key here is what do they care if you screw up so long as they make a bit of profit. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

oh for crying out loud. ok max you idiot you have made the accusation now. no accusation just fact. how many law suits or claims against k&n doesnt matter but since you asked none that i know of. why because any sensible lawyer reads the small print and realizes that your warranty is your problem not the aftermarket supplier. how many warrantys were voided due to the use of a k&n unknown but from the sounds of several much more knowledgeable individuals than you its more than your claim of none. now dont try to throw this back on me you moron. you made the claim proof is all the crap in the aftermarket place. if you cant then just go hide and shut the fuck up youre just pissed i ignored ya till now arent ya because your claims are just hot air from an absolute idiot. speaking of claims from an absolute idiot lets see you back your claim that no one has sued k&n or any aftermarket company for thta matter over a warranty isssue and lets see proof that im wrong. see all you can do is spew bullshit namecalling and whining when someone speaks up with facts. you get particularly active when tbone gets into a quagmire. any reply from you that lacks facts will be ignored just like all the rest that youve posted that were ignored for the same reason. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : Annonymous

on tue 20 apr 2004 185044 -0700 miles unknown@unlistedspam.com wrote nospam.clare.nce@snyder.on.ca wrote the only thing that works is an oiled guaze filter. or oil bath a paper filter becomes a choke in no time as it is strictly a surface filter. oiled guaze is a depth filter equivalent in filter area to a paper filter over 10 times the volume. this is also why offroad racers use them. however they accept the poorer filtering capabilities. for them the trade off is well worth it. the k&n is the filter of choice on land cruisers etc in burkina today. dont know about land cruisers in burkina but in the usa they are junk imho. how many use other filters such as amsoil or uni offroaders here in az greatly prefer them over k&n. amzoil - and you talk about hipe running and ducking .

From : Annonymous

on fri 23 apr 2004 002936 -0600 yonzie yonzie@mac.com wrote milesh@nounwantedspam.com wrote tbone wrote i didnt say that it was the best choice since that decision completely belongs to the individual. what i did say is that it will not harm your vehicle and those that claim that it will are almost always speaking from nothing more than rumor and personal opinion. mike made a point that at one time the k&n filter was below spec for the cummins although i dont know if that is still the case. since neither cummins or dc lists it as a no-use item specifically i doubt that it is still below spec but if it is either cummins or dc should be obligated to make that known and neither one are doing it. i have owned mine for 7 years and have not noticed any more dirt or oil in the throttle body then my buddy with his paper filters. most manufactures will not specifically name any aftermarket item that will void a warranty. the laws are written such that the burden of proof is on the manufacture to prove an aftermarket item caused damage to an otherwise warranted part. rather than name a particular brand of parts they just warn against use of certain types of aftermarket items. ok now if k&n is so great why arent there any automakers that have them installed in their vehicles from the assembly plant dale you know actually there are factory original air filters built exactly like the k&n. like the drop-in not the boy-racer performance cone. only difference is they recommend replacement instead of washing on some. some are actually washable. i cannnot remember the exact vehicles but will see if i can round up the info. by the way the fram airhog is also a washable filter. i have used the k&n drop-in replacement filters - not the performance cones that do away with the airbox. .

From : bill hall

for a while a few did on there performance cars but it is not profitable to put them on all of their cars. k&n is not going to charge gm a whole lot less for the filter than it is going to charge you so why would any automaker put such an expensive filter on the car when they can install one for 1/100 of the cost to them that does as well. did i read this right you say that a paper filter will do just as well as a k&n for 1/100 of the cost denny they dont have the expense of having to change paper filters every 10000 miles and actually they hope to make more money changing them for customers at the customers cost. then with any oiled filter you really kinda need to know what you are doing when you clean and recharge it which is another pita for people that dont want to be bothered or dont know how. like many have said an oiled filter is not for everybody. -- ive been following this long thread with some intrest and amusement. i thought i would throw in my experience today for a little added interest. i stopped by my local dodge 5 star service and parts counter today to get an oil filter. there on the parts counter was a large display for k&n filters. they even had the little gizmo with the ping pong ball in it that goes higher up the tube using the k&n filter. behind the counter was a large sign saying they sell cold air induction systems for all dodge vehicles starting at $185. my guess is that they wouldnt sell anything as an after market mod if it would void the warranty. i wouldnt ever put one on my truck but there you have it. .

From : max340

which proves that the paper filter is not only doing the job but catching more. it proves no such thing. my personal experience most technical expertise and at least one other poster on this list think you are incorrect. forget cars for a minute. look at hvac filters. the cheap filter is the pleated paper filter. steve already did this. again his conclusion was that paper filtration was the way to go. the air must go through holes in the filter which can not stop anything much smaller than the size of that hole. fortunately those holes are smaller than the holes in a k&n which depends on oil to increase filtration efficiency. when the hole has stopped a piece of dirt it is plugged reducing the total airflow capacity of the filter. this isnt a real concern since the filter can pass more air than the engine can use by a wide margin. they work the same - but the third type is not electrostatic - it attracts the very fine dirt particles to the strands of the filter with a very thin sticky coating of oil. - and as a fuzzy layer of dust builds up on the oily strand it actually gets better at snagging the fine stuff rushing past. sounds vaguely like the glassfiber filter you and steve both note couldnt hold back a pencil size object. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

my guess is that they wouldnt sell anything as an after market mod if it would void the warranty. you guess wrong. anyone will sell anything that makes them a profit regardless of the warranty on your vehicle or your liability for damage legality etc. the key here is what do they care if you screw up so long as they make a bit of profit. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : jerry

tbone wrote did i read this right you say that a paper filter will do just as well as a k&n for 1/100 of the cost 1/100th of the cost to auto-maker and yes as far as pure filtering it will do as well and probably better. cost over the long run will probably be in favor of the k&n but like i said many times its really just a personal choice. i bought mine in hopes of some mileage improvement and on the highway the truck does get about 16 although it might do that with a paper one as well. at least it did save me money over paper filters - since you have only cleaned it once by your admission in the last seven years then you didnt follow the warranty guide lines for your vehicle for changing the filter so you have no way of knowing that. btw the reason k&n gives you such a long period between cleaning applications is because by that time the k&n is so clogged up with dirt it has just started to filter as effectively as a paper filter. yes there is a independent test done that proves just that point and if i can find it so can you. jerry .

From : jerry

denny wrote did i read this right you say that a paper filter will do just as well as a k&n for 1/100 of the cost denny you do know you wont get a straight non spin answer dont you....... jerry .

From : miles

tbone wrote please dont even talk about air conditioners. its 86 degrees in the shade and neither of my 2 central acs are working. are you using k&n filters with them .

From : tbone

milesh milesh@nounwantedspam.com wrote tbone wrote i didnt say that it was the best choice since that decision completely belongs to the individual. what i did say is that it will not harm your vehicle and those that claim that it will are almost always speaking from nothing more than rumor and personal opinion. mike made a point that at one time the k&n filter was below spec for the cummins although i dont know if that is still the case. since neither cummins or dc lists it as a no-use item specifically i doubt that it is still below spec but if it is either cummins or dc should be obligated to make that known and neither one are doing it. i have owned mine for 7 years and have not noticed any more dirt or oil in the throttle body then my buddy with his paper filters. most manufactures will not specifically name any aftermarket item that will void a warranty. the laws are written such that the burden of proof is on the manufacture to prove an aftermarket item caused damage to an otherwise warranted part. rather than name a particular brand of parts they just warn against use of certain types of aftermarket items. ok now if k&n is so great why arent there any automakers that have them installed in their vehicles from the assembly plant dale for a while a few did on there performance cars but it is not profitable to put them on all of their cars. k&n is not going to charge gm a whole lot less for the filter than it is going to charge you so why would any automaker put such an expensive filter on the car when they can install one for 1/100 of the cost to them that does as well. did i read this right you say that a paper filter will do just as well as a k&n for 1/100 of the cost 1/100th of the cost to auto-maker and yes as far as pure filtering it will do as well and probably better. cost over the long run will probably be in favor of the k&n but like i said many times its really just a personal choice. i bought mine in hopes of some mileage improvement and on the highway the truck does get about 16 although it might do that with a paper one as well. at least it did save me money over paper filters - -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : cbhvac stephen

on 21 apr 2004 005037 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote a paper filter becomes a choke in no time as it is strictly a surface filter. which proves that the paper filter is not only doing the job but catching more. it proves no such thing. forget cars for a minute. look at hvac filters. the cheap filter is the pleated paper filter. wrong. the cheap filter is that pos fiberglass one.. my cheapest fiberglass filter is 0.25 cents wholesale.. my cheapest pleated paper filter is over $19.00 wholesale..and the most expensive media filter i sell is over $135.00 wholesale...and thats not a commercial filter. its a pleated paper filter element.... the air must go through holes in the filter which can not stop anything much smaller than the size of that hole. when the hole has stopped a piece of dirt it is plugged reducing the total airflow capacity of the filter. generally they trap anything large enough to be seen or felt. a spun glass type filter also passes air through the spaces between the strands - holes if you like. these holes are much larger with very little effort you can put a pencil through the filter without damaging anything. the dirt gets caught on the strands of fiber as it twists around trying to get through the filter and the filter holds a lot more dirt before it becomes restricted. it is effective in filtering even smaller particles than the pleated paper filter. an electrrostatic non powered filter develops an electrostatic charge from the airflow causing the very fine dust particles to be attracted to the filter medium - and even catches sub-micron stuff like virii. and smoke particles. yet you can shine a light through the filter and they have been proven over and over to be detremental to a system that is not set up for the added static pressure or resistance they impose upon a duct system return that is not sized for them... namely...cracked heat exchangers and flooding on the evap coils...bad for your compressor. these filters can be washed - and although you might not get them 100% clean you will remove well over 95% of the contaminants caught by the filter. and the static charge drops right off when the airflow stops and should any dirt be on the back side...its waiting to get sucked right into the evap.. now back to car air filters. they work the same - but the third type is not electrostatic - it attracts the very fine dirt particles to the strands of the filter with a very thin sticky coating of oil. - and as a fuzzy layer of dust builds up on the oily strand it actually gets better at snagging the fine stuff rushing past. in short it works a bit more like flypaper and less like screen in catching flies. a whole curtain of flypaper across the window. bad analogy but a functional one. oiled guaze is a depth filter equivalent in filter area to a paper filter over 10 times the volume. which proves that washing a k&n will never remove all the dirt. addition of a pre-cleaner centrifuge extends the filter life a whole lot regardless which filter you use. great but those wont fit under the hood of most vehicles. i had the original oil path filter on my beetle in zambia. it was 23 years old when i left it there. so what if it was running great thats something else. the k&n is the filter of choice on land cruisers etc in burkina today. all youve proven is that different conditions require different maintenance techniques. for the typical street driven vehicle in the united states k&n isnt the best choice. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : tbone

please dont even talk about air conditioners. its 86 degrees in the shade and neither of my 2 central acs are working. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving *cbhvac* stephen@screweduponpurpose@carolinabreezehvac.com wrote in on 21 apr 2004 005037 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote a paper filter becomes a choke in no time as it is strictly a surface filter. which proves that the paper filter is not only doing the job but catching more. it proves no such thing. forget cars for a minute. look at hvac filters. the cheap filter is the pleated paper filter. wrong. the cheap filter is that pos fiberglass one.. my cheapest fiberglass filter is 0.25 cents wholesale.. my cheapest pleated paper filter is over $19.00 wholesale..and the most expensive media filter i sell is over $135.00 wholesale...and thats not a commercial filter. its a pleated paper filter element.... the air must go through holes in the filter which can not stop anything much smaller than the size of that hole. when the hole has stopped a piece of dirt it is plugged reducing the total airflow capacity of the filter. generally they trap anything large enough to be seen or felt. a spun glass type filter also passes air through the spaces between the strands - holes if you like. these holes are much larger with very little effort you can put a pencil through the filter without damaging anything. the dirt gets caught on the strands of fiber as it twists around trying to get through the filter and the filter holds a lot more dirt before it becomes restricted. it is effective in filtering even smaller particles than the pleated paper filter. an electrrostatic non powered filter develops an electrostatic charge from the airflow causing the very fine dust particles to be attracted to the filter medium - and even catches sub-micron stuff like virii. and smoke particles. yet you can shine a light through the filter and they have been proven over and over to be detremental to a system that is not set up for the added static pressure or resistance they impose upon a duct system return that is not sized for them... namely...cracked heat exchangers and flooding on the evap coils...bad for your compressor. these filters can be washed - and although you might not get them 100% clean you will remove well over 95% of the contaminants caught by the filter. and the static charge drops right off when the airflow stops and should any dirt be on the back side...its waiting to get sucked right into the evap.. now back to car air filters. they work the same - but the third type is not electrostatic - it attracts the very fine dirt particles to the strands of the filter with a very thin sticky coating of oil. - and as a fuzzy layer of dust builds up on the oily strand it actually gets better at snagging the fine stuff rushing past. in short it works a bit more like flypaper and less like screen in catching flies. a whole curtain of flypaper across the window. bad analogy but a functional one. oiled guaze is a depth filter equivalent in filter area to a paper filter over 10 times the volume. which proves that washing a k&n will never remove all the dirt. addition of a pre-cleaner centrifuge extends the filter life a whole lot regardless which filter you use. great but those wont fit under the hood of most vehicles. i had the original oil path filter on my beetle in zambia. it was 23 years old when i left it there. so what if it was running great thats something else. the k&n is the filter of choice on land cruisers etc in burkina today. all youve proven is that different conditions require different maintenance techniques. for the typical street driven vehicle in the united states k&n isnt the best choice. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : tbone

my guess is that they wouldnt sell anything as an after market mod if it would void the warranty. you guess wrong. anyone will sell anything that makes them a profit regardless of the warranty on your vehicle or your liability for damage legality etc. i dont think so. you has better re-check those laws. we are talking about a dealer now not some speed shop that has no vested interest in your automobile or its warranty. the key here is what do they care if you screw up so long as they make a bit of profit. actually yes they do because in this case they are liable for damages. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

better go read the mm act. then you ought to know that the mm act does not protect you if you fail to use a part that is below standard specification. only if it is proven to be the cause of the failure. very true but as weve noted the k&n doesnt meet the spec and that is potential proof that it could cause a failure. now who is the one quoting specs like you said to me got proof lets see the numbers. once again it goes to individual claims. agreed do you want ot be one of those individual claims or play it safe or are you willing to risk it 90000 miles and it doesnt burn oil and still seems to have all the power it ever had. i guess that ill risk it. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

um yeah by saying any they have done exactly that. not really since any part that is not factory can be considered a performance part. exactly...... you dont get it do you there is nothing to get. they dont have to prove anything except that the consumer violated the terms of the warranty and when they say any performance equipment they generally mean any performance equipment. that is against the law max. perhaps you should re-read those laws. no its not. there is no law against specifying a standard to follow and voiding warranty if its not followed. but that is the key where is the published standard. where are the exact filtration requirements the law is against applying a standard only to promote profitability. iow it is perfectly acceptable when referring to warranty issues to say use only filters meeting mopar specifications it is not acceptable to say use only mopar filters correct now where excactly are those standards. or would you prefer to define the lol resorting to stealing from tom now lol that could be applied to any air filter other than the factory supplied make. bingo. but they still need to prove cause read the law. never said they didnt. but if they prove it itll apply to any filter. sure it will including a paper filter. only if the air filter is junk. lol wrong. any filter including a paper one only filters a % of the dirt. the amount of crap entering the engine will increase or decrease depending on the outside environment and in a moving vehicle that can change at any time. yup and a good airfilter will keep the levels of dirt ingested to an acceptable level. so will the k&n. i believe that i also said that i had nothing to compare it to since the k&n was installed at the very beginning. i will agree that there is no radical performance improvement at least no ton my truck but i cannot claim no improvement at all. you cannot claim much of anything at this point...... pretty much the sameas you. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : the guy

on 24 apr 2004 022107 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote oh for crying out loud. ok max you idiot you have made the accusation now. no accusation just fact. how many law suits or claims against k&n doesnt matter but since you asked none that i know of. why because any sensible lawyer reads the small print and realizes that your warranty is your problem not the aftermarket supplier. oh but maxie it does. you made the accusation. what is it based upon how many maxie obviously none. you lose maxie. how many warrantys were voided due to the use of a k&n unknown but from the sounds of several much more knowledgeable individuals than you its more than your claim of none. unknow oh come one. it is all public info. you mean none dont you yep pretty much that is what you mean. there are none. now dont try to throw this back on me you moron. you made the claim proof is all the crap in the aftermarket place. if you cant then just go hide and shut the fuck up youre just pissed i ignored ya till now arent ya hey maxie this is all you. you made the statement. back it up. because your claims are just hot air from an absolute idiot. speaking of claims from an absolute idiot lets see you back your claim that no one has sued k&n or any aftermarket company for thta matter over a warranty isssue and lets see proof that im wrong. well you made that statement too just like the other. you back it up maxie. i said you would try and spin. i never made any claim you did. you are just all fucked up. look at all your friends jump in maxie. no one can back you up maxie youjust stuffed your mouth with with a bucket full of shit. you back it up max. you made the claim. back it up or are you admitting that you are all full of shit max see all you can do is spew bullshit namecalling and whining when someone speaks up with facts. you get particularly active when tbone gets into a quagmire. any reply from you that lacks facts will be ignored just like all the rest that youve posted that were ignored for the same reason. another try at spin max but the facts is right here. you made the claim dipshit. back it up. or as i said just shut the fuck up. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : tbone

really i think that you should re-read the posts from steve w. 1 he posted that after i posted my claim that no one had said it automatically voided the warranty. lol he still posted it. 2 it says nothing about k&n specifically something that you should know since youve argued that point before. but we are talking about the k&n and he did refer to it. 3 none of the complaints were related to dust or dirt passage but instead to screwing up a sensor reading with excess oil. thus proof that the filter was the cause is almost immediate and very obvious. then i guess that would mean that the k&n as well as other oiled cloth filters are capable of capturing the dirt within manufacturers spec and the only problem they have is with the owners not oiling them properly. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : bill hall

my guess is that they wouldnt sell anything as an after market mod if it would void the warranty. you guess wrong. anyone will sell anything that makes them a profit regardless of the warranty on your vehicle or your liability for damage legality etc. the key here is what do they care if you screw up so long as they make a bit of profit. max lol i find it ridiculous to think dodge would sell you a filter then say too bad that just voided your warranty. i dont believe that arguement would stand up in court! .

From : tbone

well that goes for just about any change made to the engine by the consumer and i have no problem with that provided they can actually prove it. but a few have suggested that even the presence of it will void the warranty and that is simply not true. lol if your rings fail and the truck has seen dusty conditions and the k&n doesnt meet spec its very existance under the hood will be enough to deny warranty. i dont think that i have to worry much about my 7 year old 90000 mile truck being denied any warranty coverage - btw what proof do you have that my k&n doesnt meet spec. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

tbone wrote but that is the key where is the published standard. where are the exact filtration requirements k&n tested per sae j726 and their website still references that standard. it was cancelled in june of 2002. i believe it is the same as the old iso 5011 standard. .

From : tbone

lol that was a good one. nope they are both paper and the expensive ones at that. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving tbone wrote please dont even talk about air conditioners. its 86 degrees in the shade and neither of my 2 central acs are working. are you using k&n filters with them .

From : tbone

so the cotton gauze filter has no holes/passages in it a hole and a passage are two verry different things in a filter. lol only if you magnify it more. lol a passage has depth. it does pass air doesnt it yes it does but it does not filter by the surface barrier method like a paper filter does. who gives a shit it still filters to a certain micron size particle. where did you get this size thing compared to paper those openings/holes are how many microns wide they vary in both filters. so both paper and cotton gauze do use a micron measurement actually neither one use it as an absolute measure. it is measured as a % of various sizes. great but we arent comparing the total volume. but we need to. why im worreid about the dirt getting in not the stuff kept out. because the more of it there is on the outside the more of it that is going to get in and the more important those differences become. do you really think that every micronic particle of dirt that gets past the filter actually causes damage each one has that potential. but percentages are relative and in an extreme environment that 1% would probably make a difference but for the average vehicle in normal city traffic it doesnt. great then feel free to run a k&n. kinda what i said before. here are the numbers. if you are ok with those numbers feel free to suck in the extra dirt. if not dont run a k&n. how do you know that my filter is one of the ones in the 97% catagory lol are you really that desperate since when doen not knowing make someone wrong. when they initially claimed ot know it and were proven otherwise that makes them wrong. what did i claim that i now say i dont know. otoh if you would just once own up to it and say well shit i didnt know that youd be back to being right. of course all you want to do is scream prove it after youve been served the proof. nothing different than you do only i do it much less often. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : the guy

on fri 23 apr 2004 212124 -0700 bill hall bhall9745@aol.com wrote my guess is that they wouldnt sell anything as an after market mod if it would void the warranty. you guess wrong. anyone will sell anything that makes them a profit regardless of the warranty on your vehicle or your liability for damage legality etc. the key here is what do they care if you screw up so long as they make a bit of profit. max lol i find it ridiculous to think dodge would sell you a filter then say too bad that just voided your warranty. i dont believe that arguement would stand up in court! you mean in the real court nope i think you are right. but then in the court in maxies mind it just might. he lives in a pretty different world from the rest of us. hey im just saying. .

From : max340

so both paper and cotton gauze do use a micron measurement actually neither one use it as an absolute measure. it is measured as a % of various sizes. thats funny k&n refers to microns when describing what particles will be filtered not a percentage of size. the percentage is of efficiency not size. try reading it there is no mention of a percentage of size. why im worreid about the dirt getting in not the stuff kept out. because the more of it there is on the outside the more of it that is going to get in and the more important those differences become. but you claimed at the beginning of this thread that its next to nothing. did you change your mind and realize that 50% more dirt can be a damn big difference under some conditions max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : jerry

bill hall wrote the key here is what do they care if you screw up so long as they make a bit of profit. lol i find it ridiculous to think dodge would sell you a filter then say too bad that just voided your warranty. i dont believe that arguement would stand up in court! i suspect what you would/will find is the dealer is giving his own warranty in place of the dc warranty and gambling nothing will go wrong during the warranty period. odds are in his favor and this is done all the time. jerry .

From : the guy

on 24 apr 2004 044904 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote so both paper and cotton gauze do use a micron measurement actually neither one use it as an absolute measure. it is measured as a % of various sizes. thats funny k&n refers to microns when describing what particles will be filtered not a percentage of size. the percentage is of efficiency not size. try reading it there is no mention of a percentage of size. why im worreid about the dirt getting in not the stuff kept out. because the more of it there is on the outside the more of it that is going to get in and the more important those differences become. but you claimed at the beginning of this thread that its next to nothing. did you change your mind and realize that 50% more dirt can be a damn big difference under some conditions but maxie you made some claims that you now want to ignore. hey why dont you respond to those before you point fingers anywhere else max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

then i guess that would mean that the k&n as well as other oiled cloth filters are capable of capturing the dirt within manufacturers spec it means nothing of the sort. and the only problem they have is with the owners not oiling them properly. no all it says is thats the main problem not the only problem. assumptions dude only make an ass out of u. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

i dont think so. you has better re-check those laws. we are talking about a dealer now not some speed shop that has no vested interest in your automobile or its warranty. the dealer has no vested interest in your warranty either. unless you ask them and they deny any problem they are not liable for what you the owner should know. its not their warranty its yours. chrysler specifically says about all the filters and lubricants etc that mopar filters or the equivalent be used. if you buy a k&n no matter who sells it to you and it isnt up to mopar specs you are risking your warranty. the key here is what do they care if you screw up so long as they make a bit of profit. actually yes they do because in this case they are liable for damages. bullshit. if you buy something that isnt up to spec the only one liable is you. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

lol i find it ridiculous to think dodge would sell you a filter well thats true. but if you buy the filter from the dealer its not dodge but whatever dealer it is that is selling the filter. then say too bad that just voided your warranty well they wouldnt say it right then. the dealer sells you an inferior product. down the road the truck takes a crap. dealer finds that the inferior product was to blame sends info to dodge for warranty including the info on the inferior product. dodge not the dealer then rejects your claim. i dont believe that arguement would stand up in court! try it sometime. the fact is daimler chrysler will never sell k&n but they cannot ban the dealer from doing so. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : the guy

on 24 apr 2004 050841 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote lol i find it ridiculous to think dodge would sell you a filter well thats true. but if you buy the filter from the dealer its not dodge but whatever dealer it is that is selling the filter. then say too bad that just voided your warranty well they wouldnt say it right then. the dealer sells you an inferior product. down the road the truck takes a crap. only your truck takes a crap. my truck has never taken a crap max. dealer finds that the inferior product was to blame sends info to dodge for warranty including the info on the inferior product. dodge not the dealer then rejects your claim. i just keep asking and you just keep ignoring the question. how many times does this happen with k&n max since this is a k&n thread that would seem to me to be germaine to the comments that you just made. look that is the whole point of what you are saying. the inferior product that you are referring to is k&n. so how many times has a warranty been voided for someone using a k&n it is a reasonable question max especially considering what you have said. has it ever happened max i mean has it ever happened even once out of hundreds of thousands trucks has it ever happened once when case number or name dude if you cant prove that it has ever happened even one time then your talkin shit again. i dont believe that arguement would stand up in court! try it sometime. the fact is daimler chrysler will never sell k&n but they cannot ban the dealer from doing so. you are talking shit again max. i have a receipt for a truck that i used to own a dodge 5.9 liter in a 1/2 ton. i bought a mopar cold air induction kit for it. it had a k&n air filter in in it complete with a k&n oiling kit for it. that dude is a fact. i have said this before you obviously chose to ignore whatever doesnt fit with your fantasies man. once again max you are full of crap. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : tbone

tbone wrote did i read this right you say that a paper filter will do just as well as a k&n for 1/100 of the cost 1/100th of the cost to auto-maker and yes as far as pure filtering it will do as well and probably better. cost over the long run will probably be in favor of the k&n but like i said many times its really just a personal choice. i bought mine in hopes of some mileage improvement and on the highway the truck does get about 16 although it might do that with a paper one as well. at least it did save me money over paper filters - since you have only cleaned it once by your admission in the last seven years then you didnt follow the warranty guide lines for your vehicle for changing the filter so you have no way of knowing that. the warraty guide line is based on the requirements of a paper filter and do not apply to an oiled cloth one. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : max340

but that is the key where is the published standard. where are the exact filtration requirements every filter manufacturer gets the specs and will make a published claim that they meet them if in fact they do meet them. find where k&n specifically says meets manufacturers specifications. or would you prefer to define the lol resorting to stealing from tom now why not you wont answer him but you sure have a lot of shit to say to me. so ill ask the question for him. yup and a good airfilter will keep the levels of dirt ingested to an acceptable level. so will the k&n. prove it. find where it says meets manufacturers specifications. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : tbone

i dont think so. you has better re-check those laws. we are talking about a dealer now not some speed shop that has no vested interest in your automobile or its warranty. the dealer has no vested interest in your warranty either. of course they do they are the ones that have to honor it. unless you ask them and they deny any problem they are not liable for what you the owner should know. its not their warranty its yours. lol more semantics. the point is that they are assumed to know better and in a court of law they will lose every time. unless they specify that the filter is not up to spec they will be held responsible if it fails. but hey ask mike he will have a much better idea about this then either one of us. chrysler specifically says about all the filters and lubricants etc that mopar filters or the equivalent be used. if you buy a k&n no matter who sells it to you and it isnt up to mopar specs you are risking your warranty. if the dealer is selling it i believe that it can be assumed that it is up to spec unless the dealer specifically states otherwise. now if you oil it wrong then they not responsible for your errors. the key here is what do they care if you screw up so

From : the guy

make a bit of profit. actually yes they do because in this case they are liable for damages. bullshit. if you buy something that isnt up to spec the only one liable is you. if you buy something at the place that sold you the car and performs the warranty work and are not informed that it is not up to spec i think that the court will have a very different answer. the laws are kinda funny about this. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving . 222 281869 jquj80p3o52ksltc3r1de0ueielc7hmr1s@4ax.com on 24 apr 2004 052110 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote but that is the key where is the published standard. where are the exact filtration requirements every filter manufacturer gets the specs and will make a published claim that they meet them if in fact they do meet them. find where k&n specifically says meets manufacturers specifications. or would you prefer to define the lol resorting to stealing from tom now why not you wont answer him but you sure have a lot of shit to say to me. so ill ask the question for him. yup and a good airfilter will keep the levels of dirt ingested to an acceptable level. so will the k&n. prove it. find where it says meets manufacturers specifications. oh very good maxie. i have been asking you to do the same thing with your claims and you just ignore it. but you want someone else to prove something to you you live in a very narrow world maxie. a very disturbed world in fact. i tell you what. you prove the stupid crap that you have said then you can ask other people to prove what they say. seems like a good idea. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : tbone

then i guess that would mean that the k&n as well as other oiled cloth filters are capable of capturing the dirt within manufacturers spec it means nothing of the sort. then show me where it said anything different. you were the one that said they were only talking about the oil. show me exactly where it talks about substandard filtration levels. and the only problem they have is with the owners not oiling them properly. no all it says is thats the main problem not the only problem. but you just said that it did although i see you now deleted that part so please make up your mind. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

lol i find it ridiculous to think dodge would sell you a filter well thats true. but if you buy the filter from the dealer its not dodge but whatever dealer it is that is selling the filter. then say too bad that just voided your warranty well they wouldnt say it right then. the dealer sells you an inferior product. down the road the truck takes a crap. dealer finds that the inferior product was to blame sends info to dodge for warranty including the info on the inferior product. dodge not the dealer then rejects your claim. i dont believe that arguement would stand up in court! try it sometime. the fact is daimler chrysler will never sell k&n but they cannot ban the dealer from doing so. but they can force the dealer to fix the vehicle at their own cost for selling the filter and any court would back the customer because the dealer is assumed to know better. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : max340

i tell you what. you prove the stupid crap that you have said then you can ask other people to prove what they say. seems like a good idea. the proof that k&n deals with claims against itself and denial of warranty claims for its users is evident in k&n establishing a policy and specifically targeting legal action against they and their users in a letter from one of their vps which is clearly and easily found on their website. further proof can be had from two posts to this thread clearly noting aftermarket airfilters either by name or by inference as being subject to cause for refusal for warranty coverage in corporate statements. now since you crave facts you need to prove there are no such actions. good luck. should be interesting to see you delve into the world of facts for once. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

the dealer has no vested interest in your warranty either. of course they do they are the ones that have to honor it. wrong. the vehicle is warranted by dodge or whatever maker who then pays the dealer. the point is that they are assumed to know better and in a court of law they will lose every time. prove it. the fact is the owner is liable for following the warranty. unless they specify that the filter is not up to spec they will be held responsible if it fails. wrong. but hey ask mike he will have a much better idea about this then either one of us. and he has already plainly stated that the word on warranty is from dodge not his dealership. if the dealer is selling it i believe that it can be assumed that it is up to spec unless the dealer specifically states otherwise. wrong. the box on the filter must state that it meets the specs of the oem. otherwise making an assumption is foolish. if you buy something at the place that sold you the car and performs the warranty work and are not informed that it is not up to spec i think that the court will have a very different answer. the laws are kinda funny about this. so is your knowledge. bring proof. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

but they can force the dealer to fix the vehicle at their own cost for selling the filter and any court would back the customer because the dealer is assumed to know better. again a huge assumption. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : roy

denny wrote did i read this right you say that a paper filter will do just as well as a k&n for 1/100 of the cost denny you do know you wont get a straight non spin answer dont you....... jerry im still waiting to find out what auto maker used k$n on their performance cars. roy .

From : droy5339

its hard to believe that a dealership shady enough to sell an aftemarket product to its customers that would harm their vehicles or void their warranty would be deemed a 5 star dealer by the manufacturer. i think ive posted on this already. wake up its called reality. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan wake up and go to www.trueflow.com if you really want the trhth .

From : steve w

-- steve williams near cooperstown ny then i guess that would mean that the k&n as well as other oiled cloth filters are capable of capturing the dirt within manufacturers spec it means nothing of the sort. then show me where it said anything different. you were the one that said they were only talking about the oil. show me exactly where it talks about substandard filtration levels. and the only problem they have is with the owners not oiling them properly. no all it says is thats the main problem not the only problem. but you just said that it did although i see you now deleted that part so please make up your mind. subj k & n filters test john if i wrote subjective i meant objective.. i was responsible for evaluating re-usable air filters for a major construction/mining company that had hundreds of vehicles ranging from large earthmovers to pick-up trucks and salesmens cars. this study was embarked upon due to the fact that we were spending upwards of $30000 a month on paper air filters. using them one time then throwing them away.. i initiated the study in that i was convinced that a k&n type filter or oiled foam would save us many dollars per year in filter savings man hour savings and of course engines as these would filter dirt better than paper. yes i had read the k&n ads and was a believer representative test units were chosen to give us a broad spectrum from cars right through large front end loaders. with each unit we had a long history of oil analysis records so that changes would be traceable. unfortunately for me every single unit having alternative re-usable air cleaners showed an immediate large jump in silicon dirt levels with corresponding major increases in wear metals. in one extreme case a unit with a primary and secondary air cleaner the secondary small paper element clogged before even one days test run could be completed. this particular unit had a cummins v-12 engine that had paper/paper on one bank and k&n/paper on the other bank; two completely independent induction systems. the conditions were exactly duplicated for each bank yet the k&n allowed so much dirt to pass through that the small filter became clogged before lunch. the same outcome occurred with oiled foams on this unit. we discontinued the tests on the large pieces almost immediately but continued with service trucks foremens vehicles and my own company car. analysis results continued showing markedly increased wear rates for all the vehicles mine included. test concluded switched back to paper/glass and all vehicles showed reduction back to near original levels of both wear metals and dirt. i continued with the k&n on my company car out of stubbornness and at 85000 miles the chevy 305 v-8 wheezed its last breath. the top end was sanded badly; bottom end was just fine. end of test. i must stress that everyone involved in this test was hoping that alternative filters would work as everyone was sick about pulling out a perfectly good $85 air cleaner and throwing 4 of them away each week per machine... so i strongly suggest that depending upon an individuals long term plan for their vehicles they simply run an oil analysis at least once to see that the k&n or whatever alternative air filter is indeed working in that application... it depends on a persons priorities. if you want performance then indeed the k&n is the way to go but at what cost and no i do not work for a paper or glass air filter manufacturing company nor do i have any affiliation with anything directly or indirectly that could benefit george morrison as a result.. -----= posted via feeds.com uncensored usenet =----- http//www.feeds.com - the #1 group service in the world! -----== over 100000 groups - 19 different servers! =----- .

From : cbhvac stephen

please dont even talk about air conditioners. its 86 degrees in the shade and neither of my 2 central acs are working. i cant remember...you in this area seriously...ng members i have no problem with looking them over and such for free.. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving *cbhvac* stephen@screweduponpurpose@carolinabreezehvac.com wrote in on 21 apr 2004 005037 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote a paper filter becomes a choke in no time as it is strictly a surface filter. which proves that the paper filter is not only doing the job but catching more. it proves no such thing. forget cars for a minute. look at hvac filters. the cheap filter is the pleated paper filter. wrong. the cheap filter is that pos fiberglass one.. my cheapest fiberglass filter is 0.25 cents wholesale.. my cheapest pleated paper filter is over $19.00 wholesale..and the most expensive media filter i sell is over $135.00 wholesale...and thats not a commercial filter. its a pleated paper filter element.... the air must go through holes in the filter which can not stop anything much smaller than the size of that hole. when the hole has stopped a piece of dirt it is plugged reducing the total airflow capacity of the filter. generally they trap anything large enough to be seen or felt. a spun glass type filter also passes air through the spaces between the strands - holes if you like. these holes are much larger with very little effort you can put a pencil through the filter without damaging anything. the dirt gets caught on the strands of fiber as it twists around trying to get through the filter and the filter holds a lot more dirt before it becomes restricted. it is effective in filtering even smaller particles than the pleated paper filter. an electrrostatic non powered filter develops an electrostatic charge from the airflow causing the very fine dust particles to be attracted to the filter medium - and even catches sub-micron stuff like virii. and smoke particles. yet you can shine a light through the filter and they have been proven over and over to be detremental to a system that is not set up for the added static pressure or resistance they impose upon a duct system return that is not sized for them... namely...cracked heat exchangers and flooding on the evap coils...bad for your compressor. these filters can be washed - and although you might not get them 100% clean you will remove well over 95% of the contaminants caught by the filter. and the static charge drops right off when the airflow stops and should any dirt be on the back side...its waiting to get sucked right into the evap.. now back to car air filters. they work the same - but the third type is not electrostatic - it attracts the very fine dirt particles to the strands of the filter with a very thin sticky coating of oil. - and as a fuzzy layer of dust builds up on the oily strand it actually gets better at snagging the fine stuff rushing past. in short it works a bit more like flypaper and less like screen in catching flies. a whole curtain of flypaper across the window. bad analogy but a functional one. oiled guaze is a depth filter equivalent in filter area to a paper filter over 10 times the volume. which proves that washing a k&n will never remove all the dirt. addition of a pre-cleaner centrifuge extends the filter life a whole lot regardless which filter you use. great but those wont fit under the hood of most vehicles. i had the original oil path filter on my beetle in zambia. it was 23 years old when i left it there. so what if it was running great thats something else. the k&n is the filter of choice on land cruisers etc in burkina today. all youve proven is that different conditions require different maintenance techniques. for the typical street driven vehicle in the united states k&n isnt the best choice. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : steve w

there is a continuing myth that mopar performance parts will not affect warranty coverage. this is not true. as far as chrysler is concerned mopar performance is just like any other aftermarket supplier. the mother parts catalog carries a disclaimer stating the following competition parts are sold as is without any warranty whatsoever... chrysler corporation vehicle and parts warranties are voided if the vehicle or part is used for competition or if they fail as a result of modification. yes installing a mopar performance piece qualifies as a modification to the original car. in fact until the 2000 catalog came out mp parts themselves were not even warranted against defects. while they still void the cars warranty most defective parts are now covered. the alternator needed to be replaced just before the warranty expired. unfortunately the dealer said it was the air-mass sensor and wanted $900 to replace it. i knew better but they refused to fix the problem under warranty. they said the k&n air filter was the cause of the problem water ingested and causing a short circuit. since it was a non-factory item i voided my warranty and they would not honor it. posted by fordlover i know theres lots of topics discussing pros/cons of the different air intake mods. my question is how do these mods affect your warranty i was about to order the k&n generation ii performance kit from performance products for my 2000 4x4 5.4l when the saleman told me that installing it would immediately void my factory warranty!! he said it would be fine on 97-99s but on a 2000 it would definitely void the warranty because k&n could not get a federal certification for the 2000!!! why would it be okay on the 99 but not the 2000 do the other companies have the same problem i am especially interested in the velocity tube after reading other messages. what about certification on this one gm service bulletin #04-07-30-013 - 03/05/2004 info - automatic transmission shift engine drivability concerns or service engine soon ses light on as a result of the installation of an aftermarket reusable excessively oiled air filter 2004 and prior cars and light duty trucks 2003-2004 hummer h2 first inspect the vehicle for a reusable aftermarket oiled air filter do not repair under warranty if concerns result from the use of a reusable aftermarket oiled air filter. the installation of an aftermarket reusable oiled air filter may result in a.. service engine soon ses light on b.. transmission shift concerns slipping and damaged clutches or bands c.. engine drivability concerns poor acceleration from a stop limited engine rpm range the oil that is used on these air filter elements may be transferred onto the mass air flow maf sensor causing contamination of the sensor. as a result the grams per second gps signal from the maf may be low and any or all of the concerns listed above may occur. when servicing a vehicle with any of these concerns be sure to check for the presence of an aftermarket reusable excessively oiled air filter. the maf gps reading should be compared to a like vehicle with a oem air box and filter under the same driving conditions to verify the concern. transmission or engine drivability concerns that are the result of the installation of an aftermarket reusable excessively oiled air filter are not considered to be warrantable repair items. -- steve williams near cooperstown ny on 24 apr 2004 050841 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote lol i find it ridiculous to think dodge would sell you a filter well thats true. but if you buy the filter from the dealer its not dodge but whatever dealer it is that is selling the filter. then say too bad that just voided your warranty well they wouldnt say it right then. the dealer sells you an inferior product. down the road the truck takes a crap. only your truck takes a crap. my truck has never taken a crap max. dealer finds that the inferior product was to blame sends info to dodge for warranty including the info on the inferior product. dodge not the dealer then rejects your claim. i just keep asking and you just keep ignoring the question. how many times does this happen with k&n max since this is a k&n thread that would seem to me to be germaine to the comments that you just made. look that is the whole point of what you are saying. the inferior product that you are referring to is k&n. so how many times has a warranty been voided for someone using a k&n it is a reasonable question max especially considering what you have said. has it ever happened max i mean has it ever happened even once out of hundreds of thousands trucks has it ever happened once when case number or name dude if you cant prove that it has ever happened even one time then your talkin shit again. i dont believe that arguement would stand up in court! tr

From : the guy

on 24 apr 2004 054823 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote i tell you what. you prove the stupid crap that you have said then you can ask other people to prove what they say. seems like a good idea. the proof that k&n deals with claims against itself and denial of warranty claims for its users is evident in k&n establishing a policy and specifically targeting legal action against they and their users in a letter from one of their vps which is clearly and easily found on their website. further proof can be had from two posts to this thread clearly noting aftermarket airfilters either by name or by inference as being subject to cause for refusal for warranty coverage in corporate statements. now since you crave facts you need to prove there are no such actions. good luck. should be interesting to see you delve into the world of facts for once. excellent max. once again you spin yourself into circles. if you are not too dizzy yet again i asked for proof not your assumptions of k&n actions. assumptions are not proof even when the assumptions are made by intelligent people. you dont have that going for you either. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : tbone

yes steve i read that part but you are talking about highly unusual conditions here. if a paper filter can only last a day there i would say that even with them the amount of dirt getting into the engine is just probably outside of the safe limits until it begins to plug up so another 1% might just be too much. then you can add to that the fact that since it takes an oiled cloth filter longer to plug up excessive dirt will get in for a longer period which makes that filter not a good fit for that application. i never said they were perfect for everything. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving -- steve williams near cooperstown ny then i guess that would mean that the k&n as well as other oiled cloth filters are capable of capturing the dirt within manufacturers spec it means nothing of the sort. then show me where it said anything different. you were the one that said they were only talking about the oil. show me exactly where it talks a

From : max340

funny but i always thought of competition and performance as two completely different things. unfortunately mp does not think of them that way. modification is also subject to negotiation no its not. you may want to negotiate but the policy is clear. nd replacing the air filter with a different type does not always mean a modification such as changing a cam or putting a blower on it. more backpedalling and excuses. the policy is in place from the manufacturer. yes installing a mopar performance piece qualifies as a modification to the original car. not always and a performance piece is not a competition piece.. always. if you install a performance piece its because you are trying to beat the competition. you are playing semantics with written policy by a corporation that will stick to its definition not you complaint about its use of words. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : paul jensen

my guess is that they wouldnt sell anything as an after market mod if it would void the warranty. you guess wrong. anyone will sell anything that makes them a profit regardless of the warranty on your vehicle or your liability for damage legality etc. the key here is what do they care if you screw up so long as they make a bit of profit. its hard to believe that a dealership shady enough to sell an aftemarket product to its customers that would harm their vehicles or void their warranty would be deemed a 5 star dealer by the manufacturer. .

From : the guy

on sat 24 apr 2004 120750 -0500 paul jensen pjensennospam@gnt.net wrote on 24 apr 2004 022107 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote oh for crying out loud. ok max you idiot you have made the accusation now. no accusation just fact. how many law suits or claims against k&n doesnt matter but since you asked none that i know of. why because any sensible lawyer reads the small print and realizes that your warranty is your problem not the aftermarket supplier. oh but maxie it does. you made the accusation. what is it based upon how many maxie obviously none. you lose maxie. it would seem to me that if k&n had settled and/or lost any lawsuits or if their customers were getting their warranties voided common sense would tell us that their product packaging and advertising would have some sort of disclaimer so they dont get sued into oblivion. i have not seen their packaging but their television advertising seems to be void of any disclaimer. i have to agree. im not saying that there havent been any claims but max says that there have been alot. i doubt it but i would be interested to see them if there has. im asking max to show us how he arrived at that conclusion since he made the statement and accusation in this thread.. since mediation and law suits are by law public documents i have to assume that he can find the proof. of course that is assuming that max has any reason other than his imagination for making the statement that he did. so far he has turned and hidden rather than supported his statement so my conclusion at this point is that he cant find any. .

From : the guy

on 24 apr 2004 211451 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote max is just full of shit. if im full of shit so is mike simmons tom lawrence roy and numerous others whove posted info that proves you and guy wrong. not so max. saying it doesnt make it so. but then you know that. but whatever. personally i could care less whether k&n works or not. dont have one. if someone else wants to use one then thats ok with me. i just wanted to point out that the statements that you make are pure opinion and totally unsuported by facts. now a lot of people here do the same but they unlike you dont claim that thier opnions are fact. it was fun to watch you squirm max. it was interesting to watch you run and hide. you never did answer my requests to support your statement. anyway like i said it wasnt about k&n max it was about you. i just couldnt pass up the chance to show you for who you are max. max you really are a moron. plain and simple. no hard feelings here just fact. as support i just offer pretty much anything that you post. just sayin max just sayin my friend. but if you want to know for sure go in and ask the dealer. bingo. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : tbone

substandard filtration levels. and the only problem they have is with the owners not oiling them properly. no all it says is thats the main problem not the only problem. but you just said that it did although i see you now deleted that part so please make up your mind. subj k & n filters test john if i wrote subjective i meant objective.. i was responsible for evaluating re-usable air filters for a major construction/mining company that had hundreds of vehicles ranging from large earthmovers to pick-up trucks and salesmens cars. this study was embarked upon due to the fact that we were spending upwards of $30000 a month on paper air filters. using them one time then throwing them away.. i initiated the study in that i was convinced that a k&n type filter or oiled foam would save us many dollars per year in filter savings man hour savings and of course engines as these would filter dirt better than paper. yes i had read the k&n ads and was a believer representative test units were chosen to give us a broad spectrum from cars right through large front end loaders. with each unit we had a long history of oil analysis records so that changes would be traceable. unfortunately for me every single unit having alternative re-usable air cleaners showed an immediate large jump in silicon dirt levels with corresponding major increases in wear metals. in one extreme case a unit with a primary and secondary air cleaner the secondary small paper element clogged before even one days test run could be completed. this particular unit had a cummins v-12 engine that had paper/paper on one bank and k&n/paper on the other bank; two completely independent induction systems. the conditions were exactly duplicated for each bank yet the k&n allowed so much dirt to pass through that the small filter became clogged before lunch. the same outcome occurred with oiled foams on this unit. we discontinued the tests on the large pieces almost immediately but continued with service trucks foremens vehicles and my own company car. analysis results continued showing markedly increased wear rates for all the vehicles mine included. test concluded switched back to paper/glass and all vehicles showed reduction back to near original levels of both wear metals and dirt. i continued with the k&n on my company car out of stubbornness and at 85000 miles the chevy 305 v-8 wheezed its last breath. the top end was sanded badly; bottom end was just fine. end of test. i must stress that everyone involved in this test was hoping that alternative filters would work as everyone was sick about pulling out a perfectly good $85 air cleaner and throwing 4 of them away each week per machine... so i strongly suggest that depending upon an individuals long term plan for their vehicles they simply run an oil analysis at least once to see that the k&n or whatever alternative air filter is indeed working in that application... it depends on a persons priorities. if you want performance then indeed the k&n is the way to go but at what cost and no i do not work for a paper or glass air filter manufacturing company nor do i have any affiliation with anything directly or indirectly that could benefit george morrison as a result.. -----= posted via feeds.com uncensored usenet =----- http//www.feeds.com - the #1 group service in the world! -----== over 100000 groups - 19 different servers! =----- . 222 281904 b8wic.113221$04.1519643@twister.southeast.rr.com there is a continuing myth that mopar performance parts will not affect warranty coverage. this is not true. as far as chrysler is concerned mopar performance is just like any other aftermarket supplier. the mother parts catalog carries a disclaimer stating the following competition parts are sold as is without any warranty whatsoever... chrysler corporation vehicle and parts warranties are voided if the vehicle or part is used for competition or if they fail as a result of modification. funny but i always thought of competition and performance as two completely different things. you might want to review that. modification is also subject to negotiation and replacing the air filter with a different type does not always mean a modification such as changing a cam or putting a blower on it. yes installing a mopar performance piece qualifies as a modification to the original car. not always and a performance piece is not a competition piece.. in fact until the 2000 catalog came out mp parts themselves were not even warranted against defects. while they still void the cars warranty most defective parts are now covered. that depends on what parts you are talking about and even there the part has to be proven to be the cause of the failure. the alternator needed to be replaced just before the warranty expired. unfortunately the dealer said it was the air

From : tbone

funny but i always thought of competition and performance as two completely different things. unfortunately mp does not think of them that way. really and you can prove this how modification is also subject to negotiation no its not. you may want to negotiate but the policy is clear. yes it is if you nd replacing the air filter with a different type does not always mean a modification such as changing a cam or putting a blower on it. more backpedalling and excuses. the policy is in place from the manufacturer. the only one backpedaling here is you. did you write these policies i looks more like you just dont understand them. if the part is certified then it is not considered a competition part and the policy does not apply. notice that they do not use the word performance only competition and there is a reason for that. yes installing a mopar performance piece qualifies as a modification to the original car. not always and a performance piece is not a competition piece.. always. once again you are wrong. if it is certified then it is not considered competition only performance at best. why do you think that all of these articles are only referring to oiling problems as the only way to possibly void the warranty. if you install a performance piece its because you are trying to beat the competition. nope wrong again. adding a performance part is done to make it perform better such as better mileage easier starting and possibly better accelleration and handling than stock. if you intend to compete then you need competition parts that push things to and sometimes beyond the vehicles limits. gee i wonder why they dont warranty that. you are playing semantics with written policy by a corporation that will stick to its definition not you complaint about its use of words. and you are making assumptions that are completely invalid. the wording is what it is for a specific reason. if we went by your bs then using any make of part other than what the factory supplied could be considered a performance or in your words a competition piece and void the warranty and there are laws specifically written to prevent this. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : max340

i have to agree. im not saying that there havent been any claims but max says that there have been alot. a lie. i specifically said there were none that i knew of. i doubt it but i would be interested to see them if there has. if you are interested look for them. im asking max to show us how he arrived at that conclusion since he made the statement i read the info thats available for anyone to read. try it sometime. and accusation in this thread.. no accusation on this thread save for yor... how did you word it idiotic prattle since mediation and law suits are by law public documents i have to assume that he can find the proof. one would also assume that you could find proof of your accusations and statements. however none is forthcoming and thats to be expected for your level of communication. as always bring facts. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

i just wanted to point out that the statements that you make are pure opinion and totally unsuported by facts. then you should have done so instead of removing your own credibility and making accusations you cannot back. you never did answer my requests to support your statement. the facts are obvious. that you and tbone continue to deny them is both amusing and fascinating. i cannot think of any single individual in history that matches either one of you in terms of pure ignorance and idiocy. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

perhaps next time you might want to read the entire statement. maybe you ought to read the specs first....... if they call of a paper filter then any oil would be excessive. no he does not not by this anyway. he is given the athority to refuse the warranty coverage if it is detemrmined by him that the excess oil caused the problems. the mm act notes warranty can be denied if credible proof exists that the filter was at fault and k&n acknowledges this. but you cant keep on dismissing point after point after point just because you dont personally agree with them. it is not a matter of personal dissagreement tom it is simply the law. post that law here. they can try but unless they can prove owner error such as too much oil they will lose in court. this is not my opinion this is the law. nope. k&n has it on their website. now of course this is provided that the filter in question is certified and afaik the k&n standard replacement filters are. certified by who by what got proof max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : paul jensen

on 24 apr 2004 022107 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote oh for crying out loud. ok max you idiot you have made the accusation now. no accusation just fact. how many law suits or claims against k&n doesnt matter but since you asked none that i know of. why because any sensible lawyer reads the small print and realizes that your warranty is your problem not the aftermarket supplier. oh but maxie it does. you made the accusation. what is it based upon how many maxie obviously none. you lose maxie. it would seem to me that if k&n had settled and/or lost any lawsuits or if their customers were getting their warranties voided common sense would tell us that their product packaging and advertising would have some sort of disclaimer so they dont get sued into oblivion. i have not seen their packaging but their television advertising seems to be void of any disclaimer. .

From : the guy

on 24 apr 2004 165214 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote funny but i always thought of competition and performance as two completely different things. unfortunately mp does not think of them that way. modification is also subject to negotiation no its not. you may want to negotiate but the policy is clear. nd replacing the air filter with a different type does not always mean a modification such as changing a cam or putting a blower on it. more backpedalling and excuses. the policy is in place from the manufacturer. this from the guy that runs away when asked to provide proof to what he says come on max if you can do it so can anyone else. dont be pointing fingers at others. yes installing a mopar performance piece qualifies as a modification to the original car. not always and a performance piece is not a competition piece.. always. if you install a performance piece its because you are trying to beat the competition. you are playing semantics with written policy by a corporation that will stick to its definition not you complaint about its use of words. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : paul jensen

the dealer has no vested interest in your warranty either. warranty repairs are a revenue stream for dealers. it is not in their best interest to void warranties. .

From : the guy

on sat 24 apr 2004 121201 -0500 paul jensen pjensennospam@gnt.net wrote the dealer has no vested interest in your warranty either. warranty repairs are a revenue stream for dealers. it is not in their best interest to void warranties. true again. while service is a huge revenue source for the dealers warranty repairs do not return the percentage of profit that non warranty repairs do however warranty repair still provides a profit for them. .

From : paul jensen

the fact is daimler chrysler will never sell k&n but they cannot ban the dealer from doing so. but they would reward a dealer that does sell them with their 5-star service award .

From : tbone

my guess is that they wouldnt sell anything as an after market mod if it would void the warranty. you guess wrong. anyone will sell anything that makes them a profit regardless of the warranty on your vehicle or your liability for damage legality etc. the key here is what do they care if you screw up so long as they make a bit of profit. its hard to believe that a dealership shady enough to sell an aftemarket product to its customers that would harm their vehicles or void their warranty would be deemed a 5 star dealer by the manufacturer. max is just full of shit. but if you want to know for sure go in and ask the dealer. ask to speak to the service manager and ask him / her if it will affect you warranty. if he / she says yes you might then want to ask why they are selling parts that they know can and will screw their customers and please post the response here because i would personally love to know. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

the dealer has no vested interest in your warranty either. of course they do they are the ones that have to honor it. wrong. the vehicle is warranted by dodge or whatever maker who then pays the dealer. lol they are an authorized distributor and representative of the maker and are held to a higher standard than the big billy performance center. the point is that they are assumed to know better and in a court of law they will lose every time. prove it. the fact is the owner is liable for following the warranty. lol and all they have to prove is their attempt to follow it and buying their parts directly form the dealer looks like a fair attempt to me. now if they get the dealer to install it too then it is a lock. unless they specify that the filter is not up to spec they will be held responsible if it fails. wrong. yes you are. but hey ask mike he will have a much better idea about this then either one of us. and he has already plainly stated that the word on warranty is from dodge not his dealership. and the dealership is a licensed representative of dodge which forces a level of responsibility on them that a general performance center does not have. if the dealer is selling it i believe that it can be assumed that it is up to spec unless the dealer specifically states otherwise. wrong. the box on the filter must state that it meets the specs of the oem. otherwise making an assumption is foolish. i believe that my k&n did but that was many years ago and that box is long gone. if you buy something at the place that sold you the car and performs the warranty work and are not informed that it is not up to spec i think that the court will have a very different answer. the laws are kinda funny about this. so is your knowledge. bring proof. if the part is certified and i believe the k&n standard replacement filters are they have to honor the warranty. but hey you could always remove it and put a paper one back it before sending it back to the dealer. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tom lawrence

gm service bulletin #04-07-30-013 - 03/05/2004 again this is more concerned with an improperly oiled filter than its ability to filter air. oh fer cryin out loud.... theres a written statement straight from a manufacturer that plainly instructs dealerships not to fix a vehicle under warranty if an aftermarket air filter is installed. it doesnt say if it appears to be improperly oiled or if it appears to not be filtering air at sufficient standards. no. it says do not repair under warranty if concerns result from the use of a reusable aftermarket oiled air filter. now... concerns result... that means its up to the dealer. he is well within his authority as given to him by the manufacturer to say sorry but no warranty coverage for your problem because you have a k&n filter on there. you may not like it i may not like it... hell lots of people dont like it. but you cant keep on dismissing point after point after point just because you dont personally agree with them. bottom line a dealership can refuse warranty work on your vehicle if you have one of these air filters on it and the manufacturer will back them up on it. .

From : max340

the dealer has no vested interest in your warranty either. warranty repairs are a revenue stream for dealers. it is not in their best interest to void warranties. no labor is a revenue stream for dealers as is selling parts oem aftermarket etc all make a profit. as someone else noted there are ways around the factory warranty such as a dealer warranty. but the factory warranty is in jeopardy with any unapproved aftermarket parts installed. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : tbone

gm service bulletin #04-07-30-013 - 03/05/2004 again this is more concerned with an improperly oiled filter than its ability to filter air. oh fer cryin out loud.... theres a written statement straight from a manufacturer that plainly instructs dealerships not to fix a vehicle under warranty if an aftermarket air filter is installed. it doesnt say if it appears to be improperly oiled or if it appears to not be filtering air at sufficient standards. no. it says do not repair under warranty if concerns result from the use of a reusable aftermarket oiled air filter. perhaps next time you might want to read the entire statement. i will repost the heading for you here/ gm service bulletin #04-07-30-013 - 03/05/2004 info - automatic transmission shift engine drivability concerns or service engine soon ses light on as a result of the installation of an aftermarket reusable excessively oiled air filter notice that it clearly indicates excessivly oiled not any reusable. if you bothered to read it you would see that it goes into conditions that would be cause by the excess oil. now... concerns result... that means its up to the dealer. he is well within his authority as given to him by the manufacturer to say sorry but no warranty coverage for your problem because you have a k&n filter on there. no he does not not by this anyway. he is given the athority to refuse the warranty coverage if it is detemrmined by him that the excess oil caused the problems. you may not like it i may not like it... hell lots of people dont like it. but you cant keep on dismissing point after point after point just because you dont personally agree with them. it is not a matter of personal dissagreement tom it is simply the law. bottom line a dealership can refuse warranty work on your vehicle if you have one of these air filters on it and the manufacturer will back them up on it. they can try but unless they can prove owner error such as too much oil they will lose in court. this is not my opinion this is the law. now of course this is provided that the filter in question is certified and afaik the k&n standard replacement filters are. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : max340

the fact is daimler chrysler will never sell k&n but they cannot ban the dealer from doing so. but they would reward a dealer that does sell them with their 5-star service award the five star award is for service not aftermarket sales. unfortunately the five star service award is laughable at best. my experince with a five star dealer pertaining to warranty service on a perfectly stock truck bought new at the same dealer was a joke. it took three visits to replace a set of front shocks. 1 i stopped by and asked for an appointment and they sent a tech for a test drive with me and he immediately agreed it was a shock problem. 2 i dropped the truck off for the service and returned later only to find they had no shocks in stock but had confirmed the problem. 3 i then dropped the clean truck off and they replaced the shocks but gave me back a truck covered in road dirt and mud specks. i made a couple of phone calls and found out weeks later the idiot tech was canned. it took them numerous visits two steering boxes and a track bar and one intermediate shaft to fail at fixing the steering. call it what you want but its clear the dealers do and provide as they please. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

funny but i always thought of competition and performance as two completely different things. unfortunately mp does not think of them that way. really and you can prove this how read the small print for competition use only. its on aftermarket performance parts boxes because it limits or eliminates the parts suppliers liability. once again you are wrong. if it is certified certified by who hy do you think that all of these articles are only referring to oiling problems as the only way to possibly void the warranty. read what was said then tell me is oiling problems not oiled cloth filters. lawrence has you pegged. youll deny anything you hear if it doesnt come from your mouth. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

its hard to believe that a dealership shady enough to sell an aftemarket product to its customers that would harm their vehicles or void their warranty would be deemed a 5 star dealer by the manufacturer. i think ive posted on this already. wake up its called reality. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

max is just full of shit. if im full of shit so is mike simmons tom lawrence roy and numerous others whove posted info that proves you and guy wrong. but if you want to know for sure go in and ask the dealer. bingo. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

lol they are an authorized distributor and representative of the maker and are held to a higher standard than the big billy performance center. ya think so dont bet on it. prove it. the fact is the owner is liable for following the warranty. lol and all they have to prove is their attempt to follow it and buying their parts directly form the dealer looks like a fair attempt to me. wrong. the buyer is responsible fro reading the fine print not the seller or the installer. now if they get the dealer to install it too then it is a lock. nope. if you pay to have something installed you accept responsibility for its being there. and the dealership is a licensed representative of dodge which forces a level of responsibility on them that a general performance center does not have. how they handle that responsibility is up to them. wrong. the box on the filter must state that it meets the specs of the oem. otherwise making an assumption is foolish. i believe that my k&n did but that was many years ago and that box is long gone. then your belief isnt worth much is it if the part is certified and i believe the k&n standard replacement filters are they have to honor the warranty. certified as to what carb carb has nothing to do with new vehicle warranty. epa still not new car warranty. dot approved not new car warranty. the only people who can certify it for new car warranty are the manufacturers of the car. so far weve seen several examples of how the manufacturer feels about them. but hey you could always remove it and put a paper one back it before sending it back to the dealer. yup somehow lying does seem to be within your grasp. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

it would seem to me that if k&n had settled and/or lost any lawsuits or if their customers were getting their warranties voided common sense would tell us that their product packaging and advertising would have some sort of disclaimer so they dont get sued into oblivion. i have not seen their packaging but their television advertising seems to be void of any disclaimer. k&n seems to prefer to hide behind the mm act. k&n itself states in a letter from a vp that the mm act prohibits manufacturer restriction based on maker of the filter. however the mm act doesnt prohibit a manufacturer from setting and required adherance to a standard in filtration. as such even k&n realizing this notes in their warranty letter that the mm act ....does not preclude a warrantor from expressly excluding liability for defects or damage caused by such unauthorized articles or service; nor does it preclude the warrantor from denying liability where the warrantor can demonstrate that the defect or damage was so caused. iow the manufacturer can deny warranty on a vehicle if they feel the unauthorized meaning not up to spec item caused the damage. k&n also states in this letter we think this ftc rule is pretty clear and unambiguous. please note that the ftc requires the warrantor this would generally be your motor vehicle manufacturer to demonstrate that the defect in or damage to your vehicle was caused by your installation or use of a k&n air or oil filter or other unauthorized part before a warranty claim can be denied. we contend that this requires credible proof as to the cause of a failure and not merely your dealers guess speculation or unfounded opinion as to the cause. credible proof could range from obvious damage to failure to meet the specs as set forth by the manufacturer. however its clear that k&n knows about and publishes the fact that a manufacturer can deny warranty on a vehicle that uses parts other than those specified or meeting specification by the manufacturer. thus since k&n knows it and publishes it k&n is off the hook for warranty isssues and suits by the consumer over those issues. k&n specifically says they meet sae j726 standards in filtration. however no where do they say that sae j726 is the up to date standard required by the vehicle manufacturer nor do they say specifically that k&n meets new vehicle manufacturers specifications. as always its up to the consumer to cover his or her own ass. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : tbone

perhaps next time you might want to read the entire statement. maybe you ought to read the specs first....... if they call of a paper filter then any oil would be excessive. lol talk about spin. anyway you look at it they defined it to reuasble filters with excessive oil not any oil at all. no he does not not by this anyway. he is given the athority to refuse the warranty coverage if it is detemrmined by him that the excess oil caused the problems. the mm act notes warranty can be denied if credible proof exists that the filter was at fault and k&n acknowledges this. and thats the key credible proof and because i said so is not credible proof. but you cant keep on dismissing point after point after point just because you dont personally agree with them. it is not a matter of personal dissagreement tom it is simply the law. post that law here. you already refered to it many times the mm act. they can try but unless they can prove owner error such as too much oil they will lose in court. this is not my opinion this is the law. nope. k&n has it on their website. yes they do and it is exactly that. perhaps you should re-read it. now of course this is provided that the filter in question is certified and afaik the k&n standard replacement filters are. certified by who by what got proof carb for one. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : mike simmons

perhaps next time you might want to read the entire statement. maybe you ought to read the specs first....... if they call of a paper filter then any oil would be excessive. lol talk about spin. anyway you look at it they defined it to reuasble filters with excessive oil not any oil at all. no he does not not by this anyway. he is given the athority to refuse the warranty coverage if it is detemrmined by him that the excess oil caused the problems. the mm act notes warranty can be denied if credible proof exists that the filter was at fault and k&n acknowledges this. and thats the key credible proof and because i said so is not credible proof. but you cant keep on dismissing point after point after point just because you dont personally agree with them. it is not a matter of personal dissagreement tom it is simply the law. post that law here. you already refered to it many times the mm act. they can try but unless they can prove owner error such as too much oil they will lose in court. this is not my opinion this is the law. nope. k&n has it on their website. yes they do and it is exactly that. perhaps you should re-read it. now of course this is provided that the filter in question is certified and afaik the k&n standard replacement filters are. certified by who by what got proof carb for one. t-bone the certification that you keep referring to principally carb epa etc. merely relate to the accessories compliance with emissions testing. the certification has nothing to do with filtration ability. in fact the filter could pass particles the size of marbles and if it didnt increase emissions it would be carb certified. mike -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

mike simmons wrote t-bone the certification that you keep referring to principally carb epa etc. merely relate to the accessories compliance with emissions testing. the certification has nothing to do with filtration ability. in fact the filter could pass particles the size of marbles and if it didnt increase emissions it would be carb certified. you need to read up on sae astm iso en and other standards that most certainly do relate to compliance with testing. they do have everything to do with filtration ability. .

From : bill hall

heres a couple of more ideas to keep this thread growing! wouldnt a dealer dodge knowingly installing after market or performance parts that they themselves dodge sell to you risk losing their franchaise if word or complaints about warranty denials got back to dc also does anyone have proof of any denials of warranty work being done due to k&n filters being installed seems like this thread might be about a lot of ifs that have never happened .

From : the guy

on sat 24 apr 2004 193053 -0700 bill hall bhall9745@aol.com wrote heres a couple of more ideas to keep this thread growing! wouldnt a dealer dodge knowingly installing after market or performance parts that they themselves dodge sell to you risk losing their franchaise if word or complaints about warranty denials got back to dc you are indeed getting close. as a franchised dealer they represent dc. they would have i repeat have to tell you that the part was not warrantied under the general dc warranty and would be required i repeat maxie required to provide you with the waaranty information in writing in advance of any install. if they did not do that the part would have a dc warranty. also does anyone have proof of any denials of warranty work being done due to k&n filters being installed whoa you are treding on thin ice there. i have asked maxie who by the way is a fairly stupid fellow to provide this proof since he made the statement to the contrary. he has run and hidden. nothing has been supplied. seems like this thread might be about a lot of ifs that have never happened .

From : tbone

mike simmons wrote t-bone the certification that you keep referring to principally carb epa etc. merely relate to the accessories compliance with emissions testing. the certification has nothing to do with filtration ability. in fact the filter could pass particles the size of marbles and if it didnt increase emissions it would be carb certified. you need to read up on sae astm iso en and other standards that most certainly do relate to compliance with testing. they do have everything to do with filtration ability. fair enough they also claim that there testing and certification is done with sae j726 testing procedures. is that better. then their is the epa self certification protection that also protects the consumer and this is why they are so up on the oil content of the filter. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

-- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving perhaps next time you might want to read the entire statement. maybe you ought to read the specs first....... if they call of a paper filter then any oil would be excessive. lol talk about spin. anyway you look at it they defined it to reuasble filters with excessive oil not any oil at all. no he does not not by this anyway. he is given the athority to refuse the warranty coverage if it is detemrmined by him that the excess oil caused the problems. the mm act notes warranty can be denied if credible proof exists that the filter was at fault and k&n acknowledges this. and thats the key credible proof and because i said so is not credible proof. but you cant keep on dismissing point after point after point just because you dont personally agree with them. it is not a matter of personal dissagreement tom it is simply the law. post that law here. you already refered to it many times the mm act. they can try but unless they can prove owner error such as too much oil they will lose in court. this is not my opinion this is the law. nope. k&n has it on their website. yes they do and it is exactly that. perhaps you should re-read it. now of course this is provided that the filter in question is certified and afaik the k&n standard replacement filters are. certified by who by what got proof carb for one. t-bone the certification that you keep referring to principally carb epa etc. merely relate to the accessories compliance with emissions testing. the certification has nothing to do with filtration ability. in fact the filter could pass particles the size of marbles and if it didnt increase emissions it would be carb certified. mike they also clain that their testing is done by sae j726 testing methods and are self certified. this protects them under the epa self certification program. like i said i am not the big defender of k&n. i have one but i dont know if i would buy another for my next vehicle. at the same time i feel perfectly safe leaving it on my truck as the truck has gone 90000 so far with it and no problems. .

From : tbone

so both paper and cotton gauze do use a micron measurement actually neither one use it as an absolute measure. it is measured as a % of various sizes. thats funny k&n refers to microns when describing what particles will be filtered not a percentage of size. the percentage is of efficiency not size. try reading it there is no mention of a percentage of size. oh really i guess that you missed this chart. particle size in microns % by volume +/- 3% 5.5 13 5.5 to 11 11 11 to 22 13 22 to 44 19 44 to 88 28 88 to 176 16 along with this statement air filters are not rated by micron size on an absolute basis. this chart is a mixture of dirt particle sizes used to test the filter. i why im worreid about the dirt getting in not the stuff kept out. because the more of it there is on the outside the more of it that is going to get in and the more important those differences become. but you claimed at the beginning of this thread that its next to nothing. did you change your mind and realize that 50% more dirt can be a damn big difference under some conditions i never said anything different but these conditions are extreem and for the most part unlikely for the typical passanger vehicle. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

*cbhvac* stephen@screweduponpurpose@carolinabreezehvac.com wrote in please dont even talk about air conditioners. its 86 degrees in the shade and neither of my 2 central acs are working. i cant remember...you in this area seriously...ng members i have no problem with looking them over and such for free.. unfortunately no i am up in nc but thanks for the offer just the same. actually the upstairs one seems to be working but i am not sure how well. the load may just be to great for it. the upstairs unit is in the attic furnace / ac combo which gets as hot as hell during the daytime. would a powered attic ventilator help it out enough to be worth putting one in i hear that replacing it with a larger unit can get real expensive. the downstairs unit is an external combo unit everything inside the one box. the condenser cooling fan runs when you turn it on but nothing is coming out so i guess that something to do with the main blower has failed. both units are made by payne with the dead one being either a py1p or a py2p. they are both only about 3 years old. what do you think of this make -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

lol they are an authorized distributor and representative of the maker and are held to a higher standard than the big billy performance center. ya think so dont bet on it. actually i will bet on it. prove it. the fact is the owner is liable for following the warranty. lol and all they have to prove is their attempt to follow it and buying their parts directly form the dealer looks like a fair attempt to me. wrong. the buyer is responsible fro reading the fine print not the seller or the installer. there is no fine print on the k&n and if the installer is the one that honors the warranty it becomes a conflict of interest to knowingly install parts that will void it just to make a quick buck. now if they get the dealer to install it too then it is a lock. nope. if you pay to have something installed you accept responsibility for its being there. only if you are informed by the installer or given the information ahead of time. and the dealership is a licensed representative of dodge which forces a level of responsibility on them that a general performance center does not have. how they handle that responsibility is up to them. and the courts if you are not satisfied. wrong. the box on the filter must state that it meets the specs of the oem. otherwise making an assumption is foolish. i believe that my k&n did but that was many years ago and that box is long gone. then your belief isnt worth much is it more than yours since you dont even have that to go on. if the part is certified and i believe the k&n standard replacement filters are they have to honor the warranty. certified as to what carb carb has nothing to do with new vehicle warranty. epa still not new car warranty. dot approved not new car warranty. actually it is sae and the epa self certification. the only people who can certify it for new car warranty are the manufacturers of the car. lol wrong. the epa says different. so far weve seen several examples of how the manufacturer feels about them. how they feel and what they can do are not always the same thing. but hey you could always remove it and put a paper one back it before sending it back to the dealer. yup somehow lying does seem to be within your grasp. if they are going to be dishonest enough to try and get out of warranty repairs for bogus reasons turn about is fair play. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : paul jensen

the dealer has no vested interest in your warranty either. warranty repairs are a revenue stream for dealers. it is not in their best interest to void warranties. no labor is a revenue stream for dealers as is selling parts oem aftermarket etc all make a profit. as you noted in another post the manufacturer pays the dealership for warranty repairs. thus my statement stands - warranty repairs are a revenue stream for dealers. therefore they do have a vested interest in my warranty. .

From : paul jensen

the fact is daimler chrysler will never sell k&n but they cannot ban the dealer from doing so. but they would reward a dealer that does sell them with their 5-star service award the five star award is for service not aftermarket sales. unfortunately the five star service award is laughable at best. my experince with a five star dealer pertaining to warranty service on a perfectly stock truck bought new at the same dealer was a joke. it took three visits to replace a set of front shocks. 1 i stopped by and asked for an appointment and they sent a tech for a test drive with me and he immediately agreed it was a shock problem. 2 i dropped the truck off for the service and returned later only to find they had no shocks in stock but had confirmed the problem. 3 i then dropped the clean truck off and they replaced the shocks but gave me back a truck covered in road dirt and mud specks. i made a couple of phone calls and found out weeks later the idiot tech was canned. so your truck got dirty and the tech got fired. what is your point this sounds like an appropriate response for a 5-star dealer. what do you think the crappy dealer would have done with that tech .

From : paul jensen

max is just full of shit. but if you want to know for sure go in and ask the dealer. ask to speak to the service manager and ask him / her if it will affect you warranty. if he / she says yes you might then want to ask why they are selling parts that they know can and will screw their customers and please post the response here because i would personally love to know. uhhhh bone......im agreeing with you on this point and that scares me... .

From : paul jensen

heres a couple of more ideas to keep this thread growing! wouldnt a dealer dodge knowingly installing after market or performance parts that they themselves dodge sell to you risk losing their franchaise if word or complaints about warranty denials got back to dc i would damn sure think they would lose their 5-star rating unless that is just a piece of crap as max suggests. .

From : tbone

max is just full of shit. but if you want to know for sure go in and ask the dealer. ask to speak to the service manager and ask him / her if it will affect you warranty. if he / she says yes you might then want to ask why they are selling parts that they know can and will screw their customers and please post the response here because i would personally love to know. uhhhh bone......im agreeing with you on this point and that scares me... lol i know. i was thinking the same thing while reading your posts here. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

tbone wrote fair enough they also claim that there testing and certification is done with sae j726 testing procedures. true k&n says their filters are tested per sae j726. too bad that standard was cancelled in june of 2002. .

From : tbone

i cannot think of any single individual in history that matches either one of you in terms of pure ignorance and idiocy. well if you want to see one that surpasses us by a long shot just look in the mirror. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : mike simmons

mike simmons wrote t-bone the certification that you keep referring to principally carb epa etc. merely relate to the accessories compliance with emissions testing. the certification has nothing to do with filtration ability. in fact the filter could pass particles the size of marbles and if it didnt increase emissions it would be carb certified. miles i am an sae member hence i am aware of their standards as well as astm etc. the specific certs that i was referring to were the ones referenced by t-bone which were carb epa etc if you will carefully read my post! which are not performance specs. i am trying to shed a little light on this never-ending thread but be assured i shant be drug into it. so far all i have seen is a lot of heat and very little light. mike you need to read up on sae astm iso en and other standards that most certainly do relate to compliance with testing. they do have everything to do with filtration ability. .

From : mike simmons

-- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving perhaps next time you might want to read the entire statement. maybe you ought to read the specs first....... if they call of a paper filter then any oil would be excessive. lol talk about spin. anyway you look at it they defined it to reuasble filters with excessive oil not any oil at all. no he does not not by this anyway. he is given the athority to refuse the warranty coverage if it is detemrmined by him that the excess oil caused the problems. the mm act notes warranty can be denied if credible proof exists that the filter was at fault and k&n acknowledges this. and thats the key credible proof and because i said so is not credible proof. but you cant keep on dismissing point after point after point just because you dont personally agree with them. it is not a matter of personal dissagreement tom it is simply the law. post that law here. you already refered to it many times the mm act. they can try but unless they can prove owner error such as too much oil they will lose in court. this is not my opinion this is the law. nope. k&n has it on their website. yes they do and it is exactly that. perhaps you should re-read it. now of course this is provided that the filter in question is certified and afaik the k&n standard replacement filters are. certified by who by what got proof carb for one. t-bone the certification that you keep referring to principally carb epa etc. merely relate to the accessories compliance with emissions testing. the certification has nothing to do with filtration ability. in fact the filter could pass particles the size of marbles and if it didnt increase emissions it would be carb certified. mike they also clain that their testing is done by sae j726 testing methods and are self certified. this protects them under the epa self certification program. like i said i am not the big defender of k&n. i have one but i dont know if i would buy another for my next vehicle. at the same time i feel perfectly safe leaving it on my truck as the truck has gone 90000 so far with it and no problems. ok..... i will try to shed a little more light on this debate without getting drug into the nasty parts. first of all sae society of automotive engineers is a standards organization not a testing organization. whats the diff the sae does not test products that are claimed to meet their standards they rely on the honesty of the tester and self-compliance. the sae merely develops and publishes the test procedure/standards and releases them for the betterment of the automotive industry. thus a product that is claimed to be tested under sae standard xyz need not have passed the test merely have undergone the test. products that meet or exceed sae standard xyz are assumed to have passed the subject test. the sae does not have personnel to enforce compliance with the standards nor do they test products claimed by the manufacturer to meet/exceed a certain standard. a reference was made in another post to astm american society for testing materials and iso international standards orgainization testing. these organizations are like sae in that they do no actual testing but merely develop standards that are used by industry in testing products/materials and also in developing standard specifications for common items. does this clarify anything mike .

From : max340

so your truck got dirty and the tech got fired. what is your point the point is it took three visits to replace a set of shocks that should have been replaced in an hours time. then they slopped up the truck. hardly worthy of five stars. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

wouldnt a dealer dodge first thats wrong. the dealer is not dodge they sell dodges. the dealer is a privately owned business in most cases. knowingly installing after market or performance parts that they themselves dodge nope they themselves is the dealer not daimler chrysler. sell to you risk losing their franchaise if word or complaints about warranty denials got back to dc warranty denials would definitely get back to dc because dc is the only entity that can approve or deny a warranty claim on a daimler chrysler product. the dealer merely submits a claim for warranty work. also does anyone have proof of any denials of warranty work being done due to k&n filters being installed mike simmons has already posted that policy forbids warranty work if an aftermarket airfilter that does not meet standards is in place and can be proven to be the cause of a problem. seems like this thread might be about a lot of ifs that have never happened very true. however all of those ifs are a risk to a warranty claim if you use certain products. as ive said several times if that risk is worth the minimal return then use the product. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

they would have i repeat have to tell you that the part was not warrantied under the general dc warranty and would be required i repeat maxie required to provide you with the waaranty information in writing in advance of any install. thats correct. you get the warranty info at point of sale when you sign the paperwork accepting delivery of the vehicle. that is your official notification of the vehicle warranty and what it will or will not cover. if you choose to install aftermarket items during the warranty period after accepting all the paperwork for a new vehicle that is your responsibility not the dealers. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

i would damn sure think they would lose their 5-star rating unless that is just a piece of crap as max suggests. i would very much like to tell you that the five star rating means something. it is my personal experience that it means very little at one service department at a chrysler-dodge-jeep dealership. however as i stated before the dealership does not have the final say on warranty claims daimler chrysler does. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

oh really i guess that you missed this chart. i saw that chart and even in your copy here it refers to particle size in microns not percentages. the percentage by volume is the amount of each size particle in a given cloud of test specified dirt. air filters are not rated by micron size on an absolute basis. thats correct because the filter is not a go-no go guage so its not an absolute rating but a rating determined by how much of the known percentage gets through the filter. as such filters are said to filter down to a micron particle effectively. however all filters are rated by the size in microns particle they will be effective in filtering out. did you change your mind and realize that 50% more dirt can be a damn big difference under some conditions i never said anything different bullshit. you initially claimed that adding 1% to the 2% was next to nothing. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

as you noted in another post the manufacturer pays the dealership for warranty repairs. thus my statement stands - warranty repairs are a revenue stream for dealers. therefore they do have a vested interest in my warranty. no they have a vested interest in supplying labor. if they know the claim wont fly with dc they will charge you. they dont care who pays for the labor but they probably prefer you since you dont have a big book of allowable hours to get a job done. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

there is no fine print on the k&n bullshit. how about getting a scan of that and posting it here better yet how about going to the website and reading the letter yourself reads like a huge disclaimer all the way through. http//www.knfilters.com/warrantyletter.htm why wont i scan a k&n box because i dont buy the filter or its hype. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

normally the oem spec for automotive parts references an industry accepted testing standard such as sae. yes. this gives uniformity to the industry since the auto manufacture normally doesnt make filters etc. themselves and instead contracts it out. agreed. my users manual states oil and air filters must meet sae specs not oem specs. i dont have the sae # handy at the moment. which is my point. k&n can claim to meet sae standards of testing all they like. they never mention if they pass if the same standard they use is the one the oem uses or if they meet oem specs. all k&n will say is that they test by sae j726 and thats outdated since 2002. again if thats a good enough standard and reference for someone to buy a k&n they should do so. it isnt for me. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

are held to a higher standard than the big billy performance center. ya think so dont bet on it. actually i will bet on it. i hope you choose the correct dealer because not all are actually at that higher standard. wrong. the buyer is responsible fro reading the fine print not the seller or the installer. there is no fine print on the k&n bullshit. and if the installer is the one that honors the warranty the dealer is not the one that honors the warranty dc does. it becomes a conflict of interest to knowingly install parts that will void it just to make a quick buck. im not disagreeing with that but it happens all the time. nope. if you pay to have something installed you accept responsibility for its being there. only if you are informed by the installer or given the information ahead of time. you are informed in writing what the vehicle warranty will or will not cover at time of sale and you sign paperwork accepting the terms and conditions of that warranty. if you chose to risk that warranty by having anyone even a dealer install stuff that may void that warranty it is your responsibility. certified as to what carb carb has nothing to do with new vehicle warranty. epa still not new car warranty. dot approved not new car warranty. actually it is sae and the epa self certification. this is not certification that it meets the vehicle manufacturers standards. it is certification that it meets sae j726 and epa pollution standards. either of these may or may not meet manufacturer specification. the only people who can certify it for new car warranty are the manufacturers of the car. lol wrong. the epa says different. wrong. the epa as their name suggests can certify it as being safe for the environment. they cannot dictate to the manufacturer that the filter meets the manufacturers specifications. if they are going to be dishonest enough to try and get out of warranty repairs for bogus reasons turn about is fair play. sorta like that crap you claimed about owners trying to get out of paying for diagnostic work max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

if its not a warranty repair then i do not need to take it to the dc dealer. while true how do you know its not until the work has been done i certainly wont take it there if i feel they installed something that voided my warranty and ruined my vehicle. bingo.... its you who has to watch out for your warranty. so then the dealer gets no labor. ok but lets face it who is gonna buy a k&n or any other aftermarket stuff at a new car dealer a very loyal customer thats who. so if something fails where are they gonna go back to the dealer. no revenue stream other than selling me the aftermarket item. so once again my statement stands warranty repair is a revenue stream for the dealer and they have a vested interest in my warranty. they have a vested interest in making a profit nothing more nothing less. if selling a part makes them a profit and costs them nothing to sell they will sell it regardless of what it is or what it does. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : paul jensen

there is no fine print on the k&n bullshit. how about getting a scan of that and posting it here .

From : max340

the mm act notes warranty can be denied if credible proof exists that the filter was at fault and k&n acknowledges this. and thats the key credible proof and because i said so is not credible proof. never said it was. however knowing the specs on the k&n and knowing the specs on oem standard and knpowing what causes rings to wear prematurely a k&n could be grounds for automatically refusing the warranty. it is not a matter of personal dissagreement tom it is simply the law. post that law here. you already refered to it many times the mm act. and i showed you where k&n agrees with me that their filter may be a cause of warranty claim refusal under the mm act. they can try but unless they can prove owner error such as too much oil they will lose in court. this is not my opinion this is the law. nope. k&n has it on their website. yes they do and it is exactly that. perhaps you should re-read it. read it several times. it seems to have gone completely over your head. k&n is clearly trying to say one thing and show the truth to be completely another for the sake of sales. you just dont seem to get the part where they quote the mm act. they quote it because while the manufacturer cant deny warranty just because its a k&n the manufacturer can deny warranty if the filter caused the problem and it doesnt meet spec. iow k&n still will not say if they meet oem spec and dont look to the mm act for help. its the disclaimer that you and many others refuse to acknowledge then get pissy because no one wants to pay for your engine when its junk. course this is provided that the filter in question is certified and afaik the k&n standard replacement filters are. certified by who by what got proof carb for one. carb has nothing to do with manufacturer specs. carb does not back your new vehicle warranty. carb merely certifies that the filter meets air pollution specs for california. is the filter certified by any vehicle manufacturer that would be the needed certification you claim it has. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

you need to read up on sae astm iso en and other standards that most certainly do relate to compliance with testing. they do have everything to do with filtration ability. none of these are specific standards merely testing entities. none of these determines what meets oem standards under oem warranty. the oem determines their own standard and the filter must meet oem spec to be covered under warranty. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : bill hall

also does anyone have proof of any denials of warranty work being done due to k&n filters being installed mike simmons has already posted that policy forbids warranty work if an aftermarket airfilter that does not meet standards is in place and can be proven to be the cause of a problem. mike stated that in his training classes that this was the case. but my question was does anyone have any proof of warranty work not being performed due to a k&n filter being installed. we are talking k&n here not filters in general. after all thats what this entire silly thread is about. k&n .

From : paul jensen

so your truck got dirty and the tech got fired. what is your point the point is it took three visits to replace a set of shocks that should have been replaced in an hours time. then they slopped up the truck. hardly worthy of five stars. you said they didnt have the shock in stock. that can happen to anybody. what did you want them to do install the wrong shocks so they can make a quick buck off of you and get you out in one hour or did you want them to do it right you are correct in that they shouldnt have slopped up your truck but you said they fired the tech. once the deed is done it cant be undone and firing the person is an appropriate response for a professional dealer. as i said before do you think a crappy dealer would have done that probably not - firing people costs money. they could have told you tough nuts about your dirty truck and they could have sold you the wrong shocks. as hard as this may be for you to believe even 5-star dealers are human beings and can make mistakes. its how they resond to those mistakes that seperates the men from the boys. if you are so unpleased with this dealer im sure you can contact dc and challange their 5-star status but youll no doubt respond that it doesnt do any good to complain. if you didnt contact dc about this then you dont need to come in here whining about your dealer. .

From : cbhvac stephen

*cbhvac* stephen@screweduponpurpose@carolinabreezehvac.com wrote in please dont even talk about air conditioners. its 86 degrees in the shade and neither of my 2 central acs are working. i cant remember...you in this area seriously...ng members i have no problem with looking them over and such for free.. unfortunately no i am up in nc but thanks for the offer just the same. k..not a problem..just remember i go as far east as raliegh/durham and west as far as boone...north to va and licenced in sc now too. actually the upstairs one seems to be working but i am not sure how well. the load may just be to great for it. possible. most of the units we see like this are simply undersized as most guys cant seem to do a proper load calc and understand that in most homes here the upper unit will be larger by at least half a ton or they screw the pooch on the ductwork and the units working like hell but cant move the air over fast enough. the upstairs unit is in the attic furnace / ac combo which gets as hot as hell during the daytime. would a powered attic ventilator help it out enough to be worth putting one in not always. a powered ventilator will simply reduce slightly the load on the home but not as greatly as one might think. the unit being in the attic really means little as the airflow should be fast enough that the air is not there long enough to pick up much if any really measureable heat gain imposed by the attic space. in southen ca most every unit was either installed in the attic or had ductwork there as most of the better homes were of slab construction....no place to run duct in the crawl or underneath. i hear that replacing it with a larger unit can get real expensive. the downstairs unit is an external combo unit everything inside the one box. package unit. easy as hell to work on in most cases. the condenser cooling fan runs when you turn it on but nothing is coming out so i guess that something to do with the main blower has failed. probably. relay or the fan motor or cap...common...now it could be a clogged filter if they put one at the unit outdoors. could be a moldy and dusty clogged evap coil. both units are made by payne with the dead one being either a py1p or a py2p. they are both only about 3 years old. what do you think of this make ahh...carrier. icp makes them. basically other than the color carrier units. i cant recall but that unit might be the one that has a control board for the blower motor... carrier stuff will drive you nuts sometimes to diagnose. payne tempstar heil bryant....all those are icp and can be a bitch to fix. some are as simple as they get tho... if they are only 3 years old you might want to call a totalline dealer give them the serial number and check the warranty. at 3 years old you should have at least 2 years left on the parts and 7 years possible left on the compressor. or if you like mail me direct with the model and serial complete and i can get that for you. if they are under warranty the parts are free but the labor isnt. also if you have not had them serviced they need to be at least once a year possibly twice. this is one of the things that trying to diagnose over the net is about impossible...once you get the things running superheat or subcool will need to be checked and thats not something we can do over the net. words of advice however...if you call someone and they come in and say it needs freon..r22 those should be..not r410..cant recall...its listed on the tag on the unit...if the guy has no scale and tries to tell you that they put in x#lbs...tell him tooooooo damn bad. he just gave you the refrigerant. no scale no pay for it. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

-- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving perhaps next time you might want to read the entire statement. maybe you ought to read the specs first....... if they call of a paper filter then any oil would be excessive. lol talk about spin. anyway you look at it they defined it to reuasble filters with excessive oil not any oil at all. no he does not not by this anyway. he is given the athority to refuse the warranty coverage if it is detemrmined by him that the excess oil caused the problems. the mm act notes warranty can be denied if credible proof exists that the filter was at fault and k&n acknowledges this. and thats the key credible proof and because i said so is not credible proof. but you cant keep on dismissing point after point after point just because you dont personally agree with them. it is not a matter of personal dissagreement tom it is simply the law. post that law here. you already refered to it many times the mm act. they can try but unless they can prove owner error such as too much oil they will lose in court. this is not my opinion this is the law. nope. k&n has it on their website. yes they do and it is exactly that. perhaps you should re-read it. now of course this is provided that the filter in question is certified and afaik the k&n standard replacement filters are. certified by who by what got proof carb for one. t-bone the certification that you keep referring to principally carb epa etc. merely relate to the accessories compliance with emissions testing. the certification has nothing to do with filtration ability. in fact the filter could pass particles the size of marbles and if it didnt increase emissions it would be carb certified. mike they also clain that their testing is done by sae j726 testing methods and are self certified. this protects them under the epa self certification program. like i said i am not the big defender of k&n. i have one but i dont know if i would buy another for my next vehicle. at the same time i feel perfectly safe leaving it on my truck as the truck has gone 90000 so far with it and no problems. ok..... i will try to shed a little more light on this debate without getting drug into the nasty parts. first of all sae society of automotive engineers is a standards organization not a testing organization. whats the diff the sae does not test products that are claimed to meet their standards they rely on the honesty of the tester and self-compliance. the sae merely develops and publishes the test procedure/standards and releases them for the betterment of the automotive industry. thus a product that is claimed to be tested under sae standard xyz need not have passed the test merely have undergone the test. products that meet or exceed sae standard xyz are assumed to have passed the subject test. the sae does not have personnel to enforce compliance with the standards nor do they test products claimed by the manufacturer to meet/exceed a certain standard. a reference was made in another post to astm american society for testing materials and iso international standards orgainization testing. these organizations are like sae in that they do no actual testing but merely develop standards that are used by industry in testing products/materials and also in developing standard specifications for common items. does this clarify anything sure it does thanks mike. it is refreshing to see someone come in without attacks to either side. one quick question then who exactly certifies aftermarket filters like wix fram whatever are they all done by independent labs or are some self certified following sae and /or other guidelines -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

max340 wrote none of these are specific standards merely testing entities. none of these determines what meets oem standards under oem warranty. the oem determines their own standard and the filter must meet oem spec to be covered under warranty. normally the oem spec for automotive parts references an industry accepted testing standard such as sae. this gives uniformity to the industry since the auto manufacture normally doesnt make filters etc. themselves and instead contracts it out. my users manual states oil and air filters must meet sae specs not oem specs. i dont have the sae # handy at the moment. .

From : paul jensen

as you noted in another post the manufacturer pays the dealership for warranty repairs. thus my statement stands - warranty repairs are a revenue stream for dealers. therefore they do have a vested interest in my warranty. no they have a vested interest in supplying labor. if they know the claim wont fly with dc they will charge you. they dont care who pays for the labor but they probably prefer you since you dont have a big book of allowable hours to get a job done. if its not a warranty repair then i do not need to take it to the dc dealer. i certainly wont take it there if i feel they installed something that voided my warranty and ruined my vehicle. so then the dealer gets no labor. no revenue stream other than selling me the aftermarket item. so once again my statement stands warranty repair is a revenue stream for the dealer and they have a vested interest in my warranty. .

From : the guy

on 25 apr 2004 172158 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote if its not a warranty repair then i do not need to take it to the dc dealer. while true how do you know its not until the work has been done i certainly wont take it there if i feel they installed something that voided my warranty and ruined my vehicle. bingo.... its you who has to watch out for your warranty. so then the dealer gets no labor. ok but lets face it who is gonna buy a k&n or any other aftermarket stuff at a new car dealer a very loyal customer thats who. so if something fails where are they gonna go back to the dealer. no revenue stream other than selling me the aftermarket item. so once again my statement stands warranty repair is a revenue stream for the dealer and they have a vested interest in my warranty. they have a vested interest in making a profit nothing more nothing less. if selling a part makes them a profit and costs them nothing to sell they will sell it regardless of what it is or what it does. ok are we havin fun now or what max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : mike simmons

-- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving perhaps next time you might want to read the entire statement. maybe you ought to read the specs first....... if they call of a paper filter then any oil would be excessive. lol talk about spin. anyway you look at it they defined it to reuasble filters with excessive oil not any oil at all. no he does not not by this anyway. he is given the athority to refuse the warranty coverage if it is detemrmined by him that the excess oil caused the problems. the mm act notes warranty can be denied if credible proof exists that the filter was at fault and k&n acknowledges this. and thats the key credible proof and because i said so is not credible proof. but you cant keep on dismissing point after point after point just because you dont personally agree with them. it is not a matter of personal dissagreement tom it is simply the law. post that law here. you already refered to it many times the mm act. they can try but unless they can prove owner error such as too much oil they will lose in court. this is not my opinion this is the law. nope. k&n has it on their website. yes they do and it is exactly that. perhaps you should re-read it. now of course this is provided that the filter in question is certified and afaik the k&n standard replacement filters are. certified by who by what got proof carb for one. t-bone the certification that you keep referring to principally carb epa etc. merely relate to the accessories compliance with emissions testing. the certification has nothing to do with filtration ability. in fact the filter could pass particles the size of marbles and if it didnt increase emissions it would be carb certified. mike they also clain that their testing is done by sae j726 testing methods and are self certified. this protects them under the epa self certification program. like i said i am not the big defender of k&n. i have one but i dont know if i would buy another for my next vehicle. at the same time i feel perfectly safe leaving it on my truck as the truck has gone 90000 so far with it and no problems. ok..... i will try to shed a little more light on this debate without getting drug into the nasty parts. first of all sae society of automotive engineers is a standards organization not a testing organization. whats the diff the sae does not test products that are claimed to meet their standards they rely on the honesty of the tester and self-compliance. the sae merely develops and publishes the test procedure/standards and releases them for the betterment of the automotive industry. thus a product that is claimed to be tested under sae standard xyz need not have passed the test merely have undergone the test. products that meet or exceed sae standard xyz are assumed to have passed the subject test. the sae does not have personnel to enforce compliance with the standards nor do they test products claimed by the manufacturer to meet/exceed a certain standard. a reference was made in another post to astm american society for testing materials and iso international standards orgainization testing. these organizations are like sae in that they do no actual testing but merely develop standards that are used by industry in testing products/materials and also in developing standard specifications for common items. does this clarify anything sure it does thanks mike. it is refreshing to see someone come in without attacks to either side. one quick question then who exactly certifies aftermarket filters like wix fram whatever are they all done by independent labs or are some self certified following sae and /or other guidelines as far as i know there is no certification organization that is used by filter manufacturers. therefore each manufacturer certifies that his product meets/exceeds/is in compliance with what every spec they test to. it is up to the manufacturer to either self-test their product or sub-contract the testing to an independent lab. the certification you are looking for but doesnt exist! is like underwriters laboratory or etl offer to manufacturers of consumer goods. a product is submitted to them for testing and after a long battery of tests the product is approved by ul or etl if it passes their battery of tests. interestingly though ul or etl approval doesnt mean that the product works well or even at all just that during operation or when it fails it is safe. if certification to some standard is improtant to you it is best to request a copy of the test procedure and test results from the manufacturer of the product. mike -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : max340

you said they didnt have the shock in stock. that can happen to anybody. the only anybody it could happen to was a parts manager who forgot they sell parts for 94-00 rams and didnt know they had a 00 ram coming in for a possible shock problem. iow not having a set of shocks for a vehicle they sell daily either on the shelf or brought in from a local supplier is inexcusable when claiming five star service. what did you want them to do install the wrong shocks so they can make a quick buck off of you and get you out in one hour or did you want them to do it right how about doing it right by looking at the schedule noting the work for that week ordering the parts to cover that work or failing that getting the parts in from a local supplier so they can do the job in a timely fashion or maybe they got it right by charging dc for two visits instead of one wait theres that profit motive again. surprised you are correct in that they shouldnt have slopped up your truck but you said they fired the tech. they should have washed the truck. in the service industry its about customer satisfaction not who gets fired. once the deed is done it cant be undone bullshit soap and water works wonders. sad fact is i never needed to know that my truck was slopped up. it could have been washed even waxed and i would have been none the wiser. and firing the person is an appropriate response for a professional dealer. appropriate for internal management yes. it does nothing to rectify the problem for the customer. as hard as this may be for you to believe even 5-star dealers are human beings and can make mistakes. agreed. however making that sort of mess out of a shock replacement and following it up with a series of stupid mistakes on correcting the pull to the right which they were never capable of fixing is inexcusable. its how they resond to those mistakes that seperates the men from the boys. bingo. they failed. if you are so unpleased with this dealer im sure you can contact dc and challange their 5-star status but youll no doubt respond that it doesnt do any good to complain. done. i do not know how it affected them. i do know how it affected my view of five star service. if you didnt contact dc about this then you dont need to come in here whining about your dealer. sorta like you dont need to come here whining about my words regarding k&n if you havent contacted them and found what you were looking for. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : the guy

on 25 apr 2004 192841 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote you said they didnt have the shock in stock. that can happen to anybody. the only anybody it could happen to was a parts manager who forgot they sell parts for 94-00 rams and didnt know they had a 00 ram coming in for a possible shock problem. iow not having a set of shocks for a vehicle they sell daily either on the shelf or brought in from a local supplier is inexcusable when claiming five star service. what did you want them to do install the wrong shocks so they can make a quick buck off of you and get you out in one hour or did you want them to do it right how about doing it right by looking at the schedule noting the work for that week ordering the parts to cover that work or failing that getting the parts in from a local supplier so they can do the job in a timely fashion or maybe they got it right by charging dc for two visits instead of one wait theres that profit motive again. surprised you are correct in that they shouldnt have slopped up your truck but you said they fired the tech. they should have washed the truck. in the service industry its about customer satisfaction not who gets fired. once the deed is done it cant be undone bullshit soap and water works wonders. sad fact is i never needed to know

From : max340

sarcasm mode on as far as i know there is no certification organization that is used by filter manufacturers. what that couldnt be..... therefore each manufacturer certifies that his product meets/exceeds/is in compliance with what every spec they test to. which means.... it could be any spec it is up to the manufacturer to either self-test their product or sub-contract the testing to an independent lab. whoops hey k&n did that!! but... they dont name the independant testing lab nor do they say exactly what iso 12130-1 specifies nor do they say if that standard is anything close to what the oem wants. the certification you are looking for but doesnt exist! but mike tbone swears im full of crap when i ask who certified the filter so that cant be true it has to exist!!! if certification to some standard is improtant to you it is best to request a copy of the test procedure and test results from the manufacturer of the product. oh so its caveat emptor as usual max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : Annonymous

on 24 apr 2004 210539 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote lol they are an authorized distributor and representative of the maker and are held to a higher standard than the big billy performance center. ya think so dont bet on it. prove it. the fact is the owner is liable for following the warranty. lol and all they have to prove is their attempt to follow it and buying their parts directly form the dealer looks like a fair attempt to me. wrong. the buyer is responsible fro reading the fine print not the seller or the installer. maxie your qualifications please you are making a lot of broad statements that are not backed up by fact. if a dealer sells and installs an accessory from any manufacturer on a customers vehicle without a signed waiver the dealer is 100% responsible and will be held responsible in a court of law. now if they get the dealer to install it too then it is a lock. nope. if you pay to have something installed you accept responsibility for its being there. if the dealer recommends and sells then installs he is responsible. wouldnt want to be the dealer fighting it in court. ive been in the selling/installing/dealer position for many years. and the dealership is a licensed representative of dodge which forces a level of responsibility on them that a general performance center does not have. how they handle that responsibility is up to them. wrong. the box on the filter must state that it meets the specs of the oem. otherwise making an assumption is foolish. i believe that my k&n did but that was many years ago and that box is long gone. then your belief isnt worth much is it if the part is certified and i believe the k&n standard replacement filters are they have to honor the warranty. certified as to what carb carb has nothing to do with new vehicle warranty. epa still not new car warranty. dot approved not new car warranty. the only people who can certify it for new car warranty are the manufacturers of the car. so far weve seen several examples of how the manufacturer feels about them. but hey you could always remove it and put a paper one back it before sending it back to the dealer. yup somehow lying does seem to be within your grasp. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : denny

you said they didnt have the shock in stock. that can happen to anybody. the only anybody it could happen to was a parts manager who forgot they sell parts for 94-00 rams and didnt know they had a 00 ram coming in for a possible shock problem. ive been on both sides of this fence many times over the years. a parts dept. cant possibly stock every part that could be needed. im gonna assume something here that your truck is under warrenty. as a former mgr ive test drove with customers had somebody bounce the truck while having a hand on the shock to feel the noise order the shock overnight appt for the next day only to find the lower mounting bolt just needed tightening. now the parts dept has a special ordered part sitting on the shelf that was not needed. iow not having a set of shocks for a vehicle they sell daily either on the shelf or brought in from a local supplier is inexcusable when claiming five star service. this depends on if it was warrenty. if it was the dealer had to use mopar replacement parts unless it was an emergency/special circumstances. if it was out of warrenty by all means use aftermarket shocks to get the truck healed. what did you want them to do install the wrong shocks so they can make a quick buck off of you and get you out in one hour or did you want them to do it right how about doing it right by looking at the schedule noting the work for that week ordering the parts to cover that work or failing that getting the parts in from a local supplier so they can do the job in a timely fashion or maybe they got it right by charging dc for two visits instead of one wait theres that profit motive again. surprised dc will only reimburse the part and labor to put it on one time. the time it was in to be checked out and order parts is on the dealer. denny .

From : roy

you said they didnt have the shock in stock. that can happen to anybody. the only anybody it could happen to was a parts manager who forgot they sell parts for 94-00 rams and didnt know they had a 00 ram coming in for a possible shock problem. ive been on both sides of this fence many times over the years. a parts dept. cant possibly stock every part that could be needed. im gonna assume something here that your truck is under warrenty. as a former mgr ive test drove with customers had somebody bounce the truck while having a hand on the shock to feel the noise order the shock overnight appt for the next day only to find the lower mounting bolt just needed tightening. now the parts dept has a special ordered part sitting on the shelf that was not needed ya couldnt feel the loose bolt when yer hand was on the shock maybe ya oughta put yer fat ass on the fender and bounce it. damn a common shock on the shelf life is a bitch. dont ya think they might be able to put it on another truck sorry pal but i am so sick of dealers saying we have to order the part. a common problem like a lift pump has to be ordered 30k truck and it sits for a week. roy .

From : max340

damn a common shock on the shelf life is a bitch. dont ya think they might be able to put it on another truck sorry pal but i am so sick of dealers saying we have to order the part. a common problem like a lift pump has to be ordered 30k truck and it sits for a week. exactly. they played games with well have to order the part so many times that by the time they figured out the truck needed a track bar i made them show me the damn thing before i would commit to an appointment two days later. which brings up a further point a $250 track bar is on the shelf but no shocks the circus regarding my steering was so silly i couldnt believe they had actual mechanics working for them. 1 i complained about a pull to the right. they take the truck in and determine it needs a steering box. 2 they install steering box but truck still pulls to the right. 3 they have the truck alinged and it drives ok for a while. 4 i complained about a thunk in the front end. they take the truck in and determine that the steering box is again to blame. 5 they replace the steering box. 6 i take the truck in and complain it is again pulling to the right and it has a thunk in the front end. they tighten a bolt in a control arm. i pick up the truck and its pulling to the right on the way home from the dealer. 7 i return to dealer receipt for services in hand. i ask them if they test drove the truck and noticed that it was still pulling to the right. service manager tells me he knew nothing of the pull to the right. i slap the receipt on the counter and note that it says right here it has a pull to the right so who typed this in another manager appears and removes the first manager. second manager asks me what i want to do. i want the truck aligned and checked for worn parts. 8 i take the truck in and it is sent directly to alignment. they delay till after im supposed to pick up the truck to look at it and claim they have two days to look at the truck. no you have today. the truck is immediately put on the rack and they find the track bar is bad and cannot be aligned. i return to service desk and ask them to put a track bar on and i want to see the bar before i make an appointment. its put on the counter and im asked do you want it aligned after the track bar is installed well if the guy feels it cannot be aligned with a bad trackbar maybe you should at least check it with a good one 9 the trackbar is replaced that the truck drives straight. 10 i take the truck in and note a thunk in the front end. they replace intermediate shaft. now instead of a thunking intermediate shaft i have a new one with a sloppy upper coupling. it is visibly loose on the shaft from the column. i replace the shaft with a borgeson unit figuring the dealer is incapable of doing the job right. 11 i take the truck in for a thunk in the front end. its a bolt in the control arm do you want it aligned duh!!! the control arm was loose!!!! i am charged for an alignment but the loose bolt was warranty 2000 miles later the truck is again pulling to the right and i change tires. problem solved. 1000 miles later i suspect the track bar is bad again i buy a dt profab bar. upon inspection track bar proves to be ok. 3000 miles later the warranty expires. 14000 miles later the track bad goes bad. spring is here the dealer hasnt touched the truck and the steering will finally be corrected. despite my dealer im convinced that not all dealership service is this bad. max max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

ive been on both sides of this fence many times over the years. a parts dept. cant possibly stock every part that could be needed. agreed but a shock that fits seven model years worth of trucks should be a stocked item. im gonna assume something here that your truck is under warrenty. it was at the time. as a former mgr ive test drove with customers had somebody bounce the truck while having a hand on the shock to feel the noise order the shock overnight appt for the next day only to find the lower mounting bolt just needed tightening. now the parts dept has a special ordered part sitting on the shelf that was not needed. agreed only... it wasnt overnight and the shock was looked at and suspected days before the actual appointment. if they felt the odds were it needed shocks and made an appointment someone should have had shocks for that truck that day. this depends on if it was warrenty. if it was the dealer had to use mopar replacement parts unless it was an emergency/special circumstances. if it was out of warrenty by all means use aftermarket shocks to get the truck healed. again agreed. but the time span and broad application of the shock says it should be on premises as stock let alone ordered in on a confirmed problem. dc will only reimburse the part and labor to put it on one time. the time it was in to be checked out and order parts is on the dealer. then they are even less capable than i had originally claimed. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : tom lawrence

the point is it took three visits to replace a set of shocks that should have been replaced in an hours time. then they slopped up the truck. hardly worthy of five stars. heres another 5-star service story wednesday night driving home one of my batteries decides to explode yes explode - as in bang!. thats a whole nother story... thursday morning i stop by the dealership and tell them what happened. i first ask if its covered under warranty i thought a battery was only covered under 12/12 and maybe under a csc. turns out its covered under the 3/36 truck is 1 year old 22k on the clock. wonderful - can you replace it no they say - cant look at it today. can i leave the truck with them no i cant - lets set up an appointment for monday morning. hint my battery e-x-p-l-o-d-e-d. cracked the case in half... battery acid all over the place. im going to need a new one. ok ok. no problem. monday morning - drop off the truck. come back at 1pm. truck hasnt gone in yet but will soon. get a call at my office - gee were sorry but your battery is no good yeah thats why i removed it from the truck and put it in the bed of the truck but we dont have another one. excuse me sorry we have to order one. but i told you last week what happened - you mean you didnt make sure you had one in stock no were not allowed to order parts until we look at the vehicle. alright - fine. what about the other 300 trucks on the lot what about them sir dont they all have batteries take one of those... sorry sir but we cant take parts off another vehicle... against policy. i can either leave the truck overnight or pick it up and bring it back the next morning. i ask if i can just pick up the new battery theyve already disposed of the old one. nope cant do that... this is warranty work so they have to install it to make sure its done right. whatever.... so i go get the truck again and bring it back tuesday morning again. this time im told theres no problem. do you have a battery in stock now i dont know - well have to check. not looking good... i get a call later that morning that the truck is done everythings good. i go over there get the paperwork offered apologies for the delays etc. etc. walk out to the truck and pop the hood. turns out the numbnuts who installed the battery never tightened the hold-down... he just dropped it in place. now remember they had to install it because theyre the professionals and they have to make sure its installed properly. bunch of friggin incompetents.... three visits to change a freakin battery and they cant even do that right. 5-star excellence.... sure. .

From : denny

you said they didnt have the shock in stock. that can happen to anybody. the only anybody it could happen to was a parts manager who forgot they sell parts for 94-00 rams and didnt know they had a 00 ram coming in for a possible shock problem. ive been on both sides of this fence many times over the years. a parts dept. cant possibly stock every part that could be needed. im gonna assume something here that your truck is under warrenty. as a former mgr ive test drove with customers had somebody bounce the truck while having a hand on the shock to feel the noise order the shock overnight appt for the next day only to find the lower mounting bolt just needed tightening. now the parts dept has a special ordered part sitting on the shelf that was not needed ya couldnt feel the loose bolt when yer hand was on the shock maybe ya oughta put yer fat ass on the fender and bounce it. maybe i couldnt get my fat ass under the truck far enough to touch the bolt... damn a common shock on the shelf life is a bitch. dont ya think they might be able to put it on another truck sorry pal but i am so sick of dealers saying we have to order the part. a common problem like a lift pump has to be ordered 30k truck and it sits for a week. i know its a bitch. a parts dept tracks how many parts of a number it sells and also keeps track of lost sales. if the dept can turn a part in approx three-four months usually it will stock the part. where we are located at as long as the order is in by 4pm we can have the part overnight as long as it is coming from the zone warehouse. if coming from national it usually takes another day. denny roy .

From : Annonymous

on sun 25 apr 2004 024706 gmt the guy theguy@myplace.com wrote on sat 24 apr 2004 193053 -0700 bill hall bhall9745@aol.com wrote heres a couple of more ideas to keep this thread growing! wouldnt a dealer dodge knowingly installing after market or performance parts that they themselves dodge sell to you risk losing their franchaise if word or complaints about warranty denials got back to dc you are indeed getting close. as a franchised dealer they represent dc. they would have i repeat have to tell you that the part was not warrantied under the general dc warranty and would be required i repeat maxie required to provide you with the waaranty information in writing in advance of any install. if they did not do that the part would have a dc warranty. also does anyone have proof of any denials of warranty work being done due to k&n filters being installed whoa you are treding on thin ice there. i have asked maxie who by the way is a fairly stupid fellow to provide this proof since he made the statement to the contrary. he has run and hidden. nothing has been supplied. seems like this thread might be about a lot of ifs that have never happened another interesting factoid. if you as a dealer or even independent garage install seats in the back of a commercial van where they are not a factory supplied option even if the same van is available as a passenger van using either factory supplied or aftermarket parts you become the final manufacturer of that vehicle and if you have not made arrangements with the primary manufacturer you hold the warranty on that vehicle - from stem to stern. so if the modification is not acceptable to the manufacturer - you have the total responsibility if you sell that modified van. if you modify for the customer after purchace this is not exactly the case - but just to show that yes as a dealer if you sell and install any modification you are implying unless otherwise stated in writing and agreed to that the modification is kosher with the manufacturer - and assume any warranty liability if it is not. .

From : denny

ive been on both sides of this fence many times over the years. a parts dept. cant possibly stock every part that could be needed. agreed but a shock that fits seven model years worth of trucks should be a stocked item. in reference to my reply to roy it depends on how many of them they sell whether it is a stock item. im gonna assume something here that your truck is under warrenty. it was at the time. as a former mgr ive test drove with customers had somebody bounce the truck while having a hand on the shock to feel the noise order the shock overnight appt for the next day only to find the lower mounting bolt just needed tightening. now the parts dept has a special ordered part sitting on the shelf that was not needed. agreed only... it wasnt overnight and the shock was looked at and suspected days before the actual appointment. if they felt the odds were it needed shocks and made an appointment someone should have had shocks for that truck that day. only thing that i can argue on this is why didnt they overnight the shock for customer satisfaction. the csi rating is usually a factor in the mgrs salary package. denny .

From : Annonymous

on 25 apr 2004 172158 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote if its not a warranty repair then i do not need to take it to the dc dealer. while true how do you know its not until the work has been done i certainly wont take it there if i feel they installed something that voided my warranty and ruined my vehicle. bingo.... its you who has to watch out for your warranty. so then the dealer gets no labor. ok but lets face it who is gonna buy a k&n or any other aftermarket stuff at a new car dealer a very loyal customer thats who. so if something fails where are they gonna go back to the dealer. no revenue stream other than selling me the aftermarket item. so once again my statement stands warranty repair is a revenue stream for the dealer and they have a vested interest in my warranty. they have a vested interest in making a profit nothing more nothing less. if selling a part makes them a profit and costs them nothing to sell they will sell it regardless of what it is or what it does. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan max. you are so full of it. i have been a service manager at a dealership not chrysler service and parts at the dealership i worked at generally covered the entire operating cost of the dealership except for salesmens comissions plus returned a profit. the term used in the business is absorption 110% absorption means 10% profit over and above the total operating expense of the business including all salaries but no comissions without selling a single vehicle. we regularly exceded that number. another yardstick used by the manufacturer/franchiser is retention what percentage of the vehicles sold at the dealership return for service a minimum number of times per year after a given period of time. when warranty was 0ne year the retention rate was figured over 3 years - and the magic number was 3 times a year because that was the minimum number of oil changes required at the time. target rate for dealers was iirc 54% or 55%. real world average was something between 35% and 45%. we averaged between 85 and 130+%. in the ten years i was service manager. ours was a very profitable dealership for its size and there is only one way that can happen. happy customers!!!! if you rip off one customer or sell them something that voids their warranty every customer and potential customer they know will find out about it in short order. and you are screwed!!!! there were modifications we sold to clients that we knew were against manufacturers policy - and usually they were sold after expiration of warranty and with the customers full awareness and ok. occaisionally they were done while under warranty with the customer knowing that any failure in any related system was their responsibility. never had one cause a failure - never had a claim denied because of a modification. even had some claims accepted on client modified vehicles that i would have stated were definitely caused by the modification. it is not in the manufacturers best interest to piss off a customer by denying a warranty claim as the only way the manufacturer makes money as opposed to the dealer is when that customer buys another vehicle from one of their dealerships. if a dealer pisses off the customer the customer can/will go to another dealer to buy his next vehicle - and if he likes the vehicle/manufacturer he goes to the next closest dealer of the same brand. if the manufacturer pisses him off he goes to another manufacturer and that is the end of the road for that profit streem. only a very short sighted manufacturers rep will deny warranty on a questionable repair unless hes either having a real bad day or the claim is totally outside the realm of questionable. .

From : Annonymous

on sat 24 apr 2004 193420 -0500 mike simmons mikesim@fidnet.com wrote t-bone the certification that you keep referring to principally carb epa etc. merely relate to the accessories compliance with emissions testing. the certification has nothing to do with filtration ability. in fact the filter could pass particles the size of marbles and if it didnt increase emissions it would be carb certified. mike and if when installed according to directions it damages a sensor it will not pass carb or epa certifications. you cannot legislate good sense - and anyone could oil even a factory air filter and cause the same problem. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : the guy

on mon 26 apr 2004 015918 gmt nospam.clare.nce@snyder.on.ca wrote on 25 apr 2004 172158 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote if its not a warranty repair then i do not need to take it to the dc dealer. while true how do you know its not until the work has been done i certainly wont take it there if i feel they installed something that voided my warranty and ruined my vehicle. bingo.... its you who has to watch out for your warranty. so then the dealer gets no labor. ok but lets face it who is gonna buy a k&n or any other aftermarket stuff at a new car dealer a very loyal customer thats who. so if something fails where are they gonna go back to the dealer. no revenue stream other than selling me the aftermarket item. so once again my statement stands warranty repair is a revenue stream for the dealer and they have a vested interest in my warranty. they have a vested interest in making a profit nothing more nothing less. if selling a part makes them a profit and costs them nothing to sell they will sell it regardless of what it is or what it does. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan max. you are so full of it. it has been said before. everyone realizes it but max. that is pretty much the fun of it. max thinks he is being smart and cool when pretty much everyone else knows that he is an idiot. this is so cool. i tell you we really are havin fun now. i have been a service manager at a dealership not chrysler service and parts at the dealership i worked at generally covered the entire operating cost of the dealership except for salesmens comissions plus returned a profit. the term used in the business is absorption 110% absorption means 10% profit over and above the total operating expense of the business including all salaries but no comissions without selling a single vehicle. we regularly exceded that number. another yardstick used by the manufacturer/franchiser is retention what percentage of the vehicles sold at the dealership return for service a minimum number of times per year after a given period of time. when warranty was 0ne year the retention rate was figured over 3 years - and the magic number was 3 times a year because that was the minimum number of oil changes required at the time. target rate for dealers was iirc 54% or 55%. real world average was something between 35% and 45%. we averaged between 85 and 130+%. in the ten years i was service manager. ours was a very profitable dealership for its size and there is only one way that can happen. happy customers!!!! if you rip off one customer or sell them something that voids their warranty every customer and potential customer they know will find out about it in short order. and you are screwed!!!! there were modifications we sold to clients that we knew were against manufacturers policy - and usually they were sold after expiration of warranty and with the customers full awareness and ok. occaisionally they were done while under warranty with the customer knowing that any failure in any related system was their responsibility. never had one cause a failure - never had a claim denied because of a modification. even had some claims accepted on client modified vehicles that i would have stated were definitely caused by the modification. it is not in the manufacturers best interest to piss off a customer by denying a warranty claim as the only way the manufacturer makes money as opposed to the dealer is when that customer buys another vehicle from one of their dealerships. if a dealer pisses off the customer the customer can/will go to another dealer to buy his next vehicle - and if he likes the vehicle/manufacturer he goes to the next closest dealer of the same brand. if the manufacturer pisses him off he goes to another manufacturer and that is the end of the road for that profit streem. only a very short sighted manufacturers rep will deny warranty on a questionable repair unless hes either having a real bad day or the claim is totally outside the realm of questionable. .

From : max340

not inexcuseable and in todays business environment all too likely. but it leads to your dreaded customer dissatisfaction. according to your essay anything that leads to customer dissatisfaction is inexcusable. they may have had 5 trucks come in with possible shock problems and had 2 sets in stock. ill say this again they had almost a week lead time on my trucks arrival for a shock problem. they only get paid for the repair - not the diagnosis - horseshit. time manuals specify time amounts for diagnosis. anything else is gross stupidity on his part. his only sin may very well have been forgetting to tell the cleanup department the truck needed a wash or he may have told the cleanup department who forgot to do it or was running late and did not get it done before you came to pick it up. all of which is inexcusable. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : Annonymous

on 25 apr 2004 192841 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote you said they didnt have the shock in stock. that can happen to anybody. the only anybody it could happen to was a parts manager who forgot they sell parts for 94-00 rams and didnt know they had a 00 ram coming in for a possible shock problem. not inexcuseable and in todays business environment all too likely. they may have had 5 trucks come in with possible shock problems and had 2 sets in stock. on any other day 4 of the 5 would have been something else - and today 3 out of 5 needed shocks. they may never have replaced more than one set a month in the last 8 months so the stock level was adjusted to 2. if today had not happened the stock level may have been adjusted to 1 but now it is set at 3 for the next 6 months. another possibility. the zone warehouse was out of stock on the shocks because there has been a sudden increase in the number of shock failures due toe either a - a problem with the shocks which is now just showing up b the trucks are now reaching the mileage where normal failures are starting to happen or c the sub-contractor supplying the parts or the teamsters shipping the parts have their panties in a knot over some labour dispute and parts are not reaching the market. iow not having a set of shocks for a vehicle they sell daily either on the shelf or brought in from a local supplier is inexcusable when claiming five star service. and under warranty they can not install third party parts. what did you want them to do install the wrong shocks so they can make a quick buck off of you and get you out in one hour or did you want them to do it right how about doing it right by looking at the schedule noting the work for that week ordering the parts to cover that work or failing that getting the parts in from a local supplier so they can do the job in a timely fashion or maybe they got it right by charging dc for two visits instead of one wait theres that profit motive again. surprised they only get paid for the repair - not the diagnosis - so they did not get paid for telling you you needed shocks they did not have. you are correct in that they shouldnt have slopped up your truck but you said they fired the tech. this may have been total over-reaction. you had a percieved shock problem. the mechanic test drives the vehicle to verify the problem replaces the shocks then test drives the vehicle again to verify the repair. anything else is gross stupidity on his part. his only sin may very well have been forgetting to tell the cleanup department the truck needed a wash or he may have told the cleanup department who forgot to do it or was running late and did not get it done before you came to pick it up. .

From : max340

you are so full of it. bring proof. all of what youve said has been countered by individuals who are at least as qualified as you claim to be. service and parts at the dealership i worked at generally covered the entire operating cost of the dealership except for salesmens comissions plus returned a profit. so im not full of it since i already agreed with this. we regularly exceded that number. no doubt. parts at one place i worked grossed over a million dollars a year several years running. target rate for dealers was iirc 54% or 55%. real world average was something between 35% and 45%. we averaged between 85 and 130+%. in the ten years i was service manager. so what all this does is prove im correct and not full of it when i say service and parts are about profit. if you rip off one customer or sell them something that voids their warranty every customer and potential customer they know will find out about it in short order. and you are screwed!!!! i suggest that along with what ive said about ripping off a customer regarding aftermarket parts you also look at how many new vehicle dealerships sell k&n filters. ill bet there is a direct corelation between dealership satisfaction and the number that do not sell products that increase customer dissatisfaction. there were modifications we sold to clients that we knew were against manufacturers policy - and usually they were sold after expiration of warranty and with the customers full awareness and ok. again this proves that the customer accepts the liability. occaisionally they were done while under warranty with the customer knowing that any failure in any related system was their responsibility. ok so im full of it but you just said exactly what ive been saying all along. wtf never had one cause a failure - never had a claim denied because of a modification. lucky them. they accepted the risk and it worked out for them. even had some claims accepted on client modified vehicles that i would have stated were definitely caused by the modification. even luckier for them. why didnt you state the cause it is not in the manufacturers best interest to piss off a customer by denying a warranty claim as the only way the manufacturer makes money as opposed to the dealer is when that customer buys another vehicle from one of their dealerships. yet as weve seen from mike and others manufacturers regularly educate their dealer network about what voids a claim and what to reject. only a very short sighted manufacturers rep will deny warranty on a questionable repair unless hes either having a real bad day or the claim is totally outside the realm of questionable. while true the manufacturer will stop accepting

From : max340

in reference to my reply to roy it depends on how many of them they sell whether it is a stock item. i fully understand where you are coming from on this. but as you say i think a part that fits all 2500 series trucks for seven model years at a dealership that sells predominantly ram trucks they could have two in stock. the cost in inventory would be minimal imo. only thing that i can argue on this is why didnt they overnight the shock for customer satisfaction. the csi rating is usually a factor in the mgrs salary package. well my point is they didnt have to overnight it. they knew i was coming in for almost a week. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : jerry

nospam.clare.nce@snyder.on.ca wrote max. you are so full of it. pay attention .................. no one is talking about dealer responsibility. its already been said by all that the dealer is responsible for after market parts sold or installed by the dealer. it is the manufacturer being responsible for their warranty if non oem parts are used whether installed by dealer or individual that is being argued. jerry .

From : the guy

on 26 apr 2004 022646 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote you are so full of it. bring proof. sounds familiar max. lets see.........think now. oh yes you were asked a number of times to provide some proof of your opinion. but as i rememberyou ran and hid like the coward that you are. you never did respond never did provide any proof. an yet like the hypocrite that you really are you demand that of others max so max has proven himslef to be a hypocrit and a liar. hang in there max there are still mountains for you to climb buddy. all of what youve said has been countered by individuals who are at least as qualified as you claim to be. service and parts at the dealership i worked at generally covered the entire operating cost of the dealership except for salesmens comissions plus returned a profit. so im not full of it since i already agreed with this. we regularly exceded that number. no doubt. parts at one place i worked grossed over a million dollars a year several years running. target rate for dealers was iirc 54% or 55%. real world average was something between 35% and 45%. we averaged between 85 and 130+%. in the ten years i was service manager. so what all this does is prove im correct and not full of it when i say service and parts are about profit. if you rip off one customer or sell them something that voids their warranty every customer and potential customer they know will find out about it in short order. and you are screwed!!!! i suggest that along with what ive said about ripping off a customer regarding aftermarket parts you also look at how many new vehicle dealerships sell k&n filters. ill bet there is a direct corelation between dealership satisfaction and the number that do not sell products that increase customer dissatisfaction. there were modifications we sold to clients that we knew were against manufacturers policy - and usually they were sold after expiration of warranty and with the customers full awareness and ok. again this proves that the customer accepts the liability. occaisionally they were done while under warranty with the customer knowing that any failure in any related system was their responsibility. ok so im full of it but you just said exactly what ive been saying all along. wtf never had one cause a failure - never had a claim denied because of a modification. lucky them. they accepted the risk and it worked out for them. even had some claims accepted on client modified vehicles that i would have stated were definitely caused by the modification. even luckier for them. why didnt you state the cause it is not in the manufacturers best interest to piss off a customer by denying a warranty claim as the only way the manufacturer makes money as opposed to the dealer is when that customer buys another vehicle from one of their dealerships. yet as weve seen from mike and others manufacturers regularly educate their dealer network about what voids a claim and what to reject. only a very short sighted manufacturers rep will deny warranty on a questionable repair unless hes either having a real bad day or the claim is totally outside the realm of questionable. while true the manufacturer will stop accepting claims which are clearly a violation of the warranty terms. this is because at some point the balance of possible incoming revenue vs. real losses to warranty claim fails. yup im so full of it you repeated most of what ive said including repeating verbatim what ive said about warranty responsibility. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : the guy

on mon 26 apr 2004 030512 gmt jerry jlrice1655@earthlink.net wrote nospam.clare.nce@snyder.on.ca wrote max. you are so full of it. pay attention .................. no one is talking about dealer responsibility. its already been said by all that the dealer is responsible for after market parts sold or installed by the dealer. it is the manufacturer being responsible for their warranty if non oem parts are used whether installed by dealer or individual that is being argued. jerry pay attention jerry.............what the person is talking about is that max is full of shit. it is pretty simple jerry. kind of like you. .

From : jerry

the guy wrote on mon 26 apr 2004 030512 gmt jerry jlrice1655@earthlink.net wrote nospam.clare.nce@snyder.on.ca wrote max. you are so full of it. pay attention .................. no one is talking about dealer responsibility. its already been said by all that the dealer is responsible for after market parts sold or installed by the dealer. it is the manufacturer being responsible for their warranty if non oem parts are used whether installed by dealer or individual that is being argued. jerry pay attention jerry.............what the person is talking about is that max is full of shit. it is pretty simple jerry. kind of like you. talk about bullshit you havent a clue what you are talking about. youve got this hard on for max just like you once did for budd and just as in that situation you constantly say some of the dumbest crap just to spout off in a thread he is in. you know what little man/boy or what ever ive come to realize you are living proof that a after birth can survive outside the womb. makes me wonder what happened to the real kid ..............wait......... i think.......... naw cant be..... jerry .

From : the guy

on mon 26 apr 2004 034314 gmt jerry jlrice1655@earthlink.net wrote the guy wrote on mon 26 apr 2004 030512 gmt jerry jlrice1655@earthlink.net wrote nospam.clare.nce@snyder.on.ca wrote max. you are so full of it. pay attention .................. no one is talking about dealer responsibility. its already been said by all that the dealer is responsible for after market parts sold or installed by the dealer. it is the manufacturer being responsible for their warranty if non oem parts are used whether installed by dealer or individual that is being argued. jerry pay attention jerry.............what the person is talking about is that max is full of shit. it is pretty simple jerry. kind of like you. talk about bullshit you havent a clue what you are talking about. youve got this hard on for max just like you once did for budd and just as in that situation you constantly say some of the dumbest crap just to spout off in a thread he is in. i dont have a hard on for max jerry. i mean dude you and max ccan have whatever kind of party you want to have but please dont include me. phew stink o jerry. you know what little man/boy or what ever ive come to realize you are living proof that a after birth can survive outside the womb. makes me wonder what happened to the real kid ..............wait......... i think.......... naw cant be..... whatever jerry. whatever dude. makes no difference to me man. jerry .

From : the guy

on 26 apr 2004 043905 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote not inexcuseable and in todays business environment all too likely. but it leads to your dreaded customer dissatisfaction. according to your essay anything that leads to customer dissatisfaction is inexcusable. they may have had 5 trucks come in with possible shock problems and had 2 sets in stock. ill say this again they had almost a week lead time on my trucks arrival for a shock problem. they only get paid for the repair - not the diagnosis - horseshit. time manuals specify time amounts for diagnosis. anything else is gross stupidity on his part. his only sin may very well have been forgetting to tell the cleanup department the truck needed a wash or he may have told the cleanup department who forgot to do it or was running late and did not get it done before you came to pick it up. all of which is inexcusable. well max that just about says it all man. just point it in the right direction and we got ignition. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

max not in this case. the labor time guide would probably pay about .2 for replacing a shock which would include diag. which leaves this as an even more silly situation. if they arent getting paid to look for the problem why waste time with not having the part on hand drivability concerns will give you drb test time .3 hr i think on top of the failed part time. so what you are saying is they had .7 of an hour to look at and swap a set of shocks. thats about 45 minutes. they spent half that time driving my truck in and out of the service bay and putting it up and down on a lift. just because there were no shocks on the shelf. techs/shops do not get rich doing warrenty work. dcs time is generally 1/2 to 2/3 of the time that all-data would pay. no doubt. im not disagreeing with you im saying that your info makes the situation all the more intolerable. they had my truck way too much for the problem and they screwed themselves in the deal. how is that five star service and is that why dealerships may not care to hold the standard max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : dale yonz

the guy theguy@myplace.com wrote on mon 26 apr 2004 131240 gmt budd cochran mr-d150@citlinkspam.net wrote sounds familiar max. lets see.........think now. oh yes you were asked a number of times to provide some proof of your opinion. nice of you to drop in. i guess this means there are more mouths to feed huh why dont you drop out then you wouldnt have to worry about feeding us all the crap you been telling dale notice how polite i am didnt call pussy an asshole .

From : denny

not inexcuseable and in todays business environment all too likely. but it leads to your dreaded customer dissatisfaction. according to your essay anything that leads to customer dissatisfaction is inexcusable. they may have had 5 trucks come in with possible shock problems and had 2 sets in stock. ill say this again they had almost a week lead time on my trucks arrival for a shock problem. they only get paid for the repair - not the diagnosis - horseshit. time manuals specify time amounts for diagnosis. max not in this case. the labor time guide would probably pay about .2 for replacing a shock which would include diag. electrical wiring repairs are straight time which we can go up to one hour without authorization from the rep. drivability concerns will give you drb test time .3 hr i think on top of the failed part time. techs/shops do not get rich doing warrenty work. dcs time is generally 1/2 to 2/3 of the time that all-data would pay. denny .

From : stephen harding

tom lawrence wrote wednesday night driving home one of my batteries decides to explode yes explode - as in bang!. thats a whole nother story... whats the drill in dealing with this to prevent acid damage to anything that might have got an acid spray i guess just hose everything down with water water and acid under some conditions puddle of acid + drop or two of water is not a good mix. is there some sort of neutralizing spray that is used what would the dealer do to mitigate any corrosive effect of battery acid on metal/rubber/plastic materials smh .

From : tom lawrence

whats the drill in dealing with this to prevent acid damage to anything that might have got an acid spray i mixed up a spray bottle with water and baking soda and sprayed everything down until it neutralized the acid it stops fizzing. then once the engine was completely cooled i flooded everything with water for a good 10 minutes. i guess just hose everything down with water water and acid under some conditions puddle of acid + drop or two of water is not a good mix. yeah - it gets very hot. but thats only when you have acid in a concentrated form. way back in chemistry class i can remember diluting a beaker full of 98% sulfuric acid and almost had to let go of the beaker from the heat that was produced. however battery acid is already pretty diluted so thats not a concern here. what would the dealer do to mitigate any corrosive effect of battery acid on metal/rubber/plastic materials pretty much the same thing i did... neutralize the affected area wash it down disconnect any electrical connectors clean them out re-grease them. .

From : stephen harding

nospam.clare.nce@snyder.on.ca wrote another interesting factoid. if you as a dealer or even independent garage install seats in the back of a commercial van where they are not a factory supplied option even if the same van is available as a passenger van using either factory supplied or aftermarket parts you become the final manufacturer of that vehicle and if you have not made arrangements with the primary manufacturer you hold the warranty on that vehicle - from stem to stern. so if the modification is not acceptable to the manufacturer - you have the total responsibility if you sell that modified van. makes sense...unfortunately. i had a coworker who built his own airplane a rutan longez. very nice aircraft and a real treat to go flying in. however reduced vision forced him to give up flying and because *he* built the aircraft *he* was the one defined as the manufacturer. if anything happened at any time to future owners of the aircraft he would most likely end up in court. he ended up removing all the electronics and engine and selling them then hauled out his sawzall and cut the foam and fiberglass airframe into pieces and put them in a land fill! i think he kept the canards or finlets for garage hangings but thats all that remained of 5 years work! all in the name of potential legal liability! smh .

From : budd cochran

sounds familiar max. lets see.........think now. oh yes you were asked a number of times to provide some proof of your opinion. rotflmbo!!!!!!!!!!!! i drop in just to see if anything new is happening and what do i find you and your alter ego t-bone up to the same old stuff. havent you two any better use for your miserable lives i think its pretty obvious that you both are the aggressors just as i said. gawd! how many times did i ask for you or t-bone to give proof about a comment and you both did just what you accuse max of. and yet you expect max to give you proof btw there is no proof for opinions. and poor t-bone .... who flunked percentages so bad they should have held him back twenty years in school. hey tom 1% of any volume or concentration is still 1% of it. so whether an airfilter is in a 1 part per million dirtparticles environment or a 100000 parts per million dirt particles environment doesnt matter if it passes 1% of that volume or concentration more than another airfilter it simply does not filter as well. simple self-evident logic. budd .

From : budd cochran

thank you jerry. would you please email me id like some advice on catfishing. im not having much luck at it. budd talk about bullshit you havent a clue what you are talking about. youve got this hard on for max just like you once did for budd and just as in that situation you constantly say some of the dumbest crap just to spout off in a thread he is in. you know what little man/boy or what ever ive come to realize you are living proof that a after birth can survive outside the womb. makes me wonder what happened to the real kid ..............wait......... i think.......... naw cant be..... jerry .

From : dale yonz

cochran mr-d150@citlinkspam.net wrote thank you jerry. would you please email me id like some advice on catfishing. im not having much luck at it. budd hey budd you got to use catnip to catch to 4 legged critters dale .

From : the guy

on mon 26 apr 2004 131240 gmt budd cochran mr-d150@citlinkspam.net wrote sounds familiar max. lets see.........think now. oh yes you were asked a number of times to provide some proof of your opinion. nice of you to drop in. i guess this means there are more mouths to feed huh rotflmbo!!!!!!!!!!!! i drop in just to see if anything new is happening and what do i find you and your alter ego t-bone up to the same old stuff. havent you two any better use for your miserable lives i think its pretty obvious that you both are the aggressors just as i said. gawd! how many times did i ask for you or t-bone to give proof about a comment and you both did just what you accuse max of. and yet you expect max to give you proof btw there is no proof for opinions. and poor t-bone .... who flunked percentages so bad they should have held him back twenty years in school. hey tom 1% of any volume or concentration is still 1% of it. so whether an airfilter is in a 1 part per million dirt particles environment or a 100000 parts per million dirt particles environment doesnt matter if it passes 1% of that volume or concentration more than another airfilter it simply does not filter as well. simple self-evident logic. budd .

From : tbone

*cbhvac* stephen@screweduponpurpose@carolinabreezehvac.com wrote in *cbhvac* stephen@screweduponpurpose@carolinabreezehvac.com wrote in please dont even talk about air conditioners. its 86 degrees in the shade and neither of my 2 central acs are working. i cant remember...you in this area seriously...ng members i have no problem with looking them over and such for free.. unfortunately no i am up in nc but thanks for the offer just the same. k..not a problem..just remember i go as far east as raliegh/durham and west as far as boone...north to va and licenced in sc now too. i guess that you do cover my area. for some reason i thought that you were in florida. the house is still under warranty so they will have to deal with it for now but ill keep you in mind down the road if you are taking on any new customers. i remember at one point that you were not. actually the upstairs one seems to be working but i am not sure how well. the load may just be to great for it. possible. most of the units we see like this are simply undersized as most guys cant seem to do a proper load calc and understand that in most homes here the upper unit will be larger by at least half a ton or they screw the pooch on the ductwork and the units working like hell but cant move the air over fast enough. possible i dont know enough about a/c systems to give you a clue. this whole house is using those black insulated hose like flexible ducts but the return can suck the bedroom door closed and its on the opposite side of the house so i dont think that airflow is the problem. but then again i dont have the tools to measure the static pressure in the main output duct either. the upstairs unit is in the attic furnace / ac combo which gets as hot as hell during the daytime. would a powered attic ventilator help it out enough to be worth putting one in not always. a powered ventilator will simply reduce slightly the load on the home but not as greatly as one might think. the unit being in the attic really means little as the airflow should be fast enough that the air is not there long enough to pick up much if any really measureable heat gain imposed by the attic space. in southen ca most every unit was either installed in the attic or had ductwork there as most of the better homes were of slab construction....no place to run duct in the crawl or underneath. this information will save me some time money and aggrivation thanks steve. i hear that replacing it with a larger unit can get real expensive. the downstairs unit is an external combo unit everything inside the one box. package unit. easy as hell to work on in most cases. you might think so but the genius that built the house put a heavy screening fence less than a foot from the main access cover. fortunately when you said that they are easy to work on i went and looked and discovered this problem and removed the fence. if not when the service people got here they would have probably said it was inaccessible and left. it is bad enough that there is currently no service disconnect near the unit. the condenser cooling fan runs when you turn it on but nothing is coming out so i guess that something to do with the main blower has failed. probably. relay or the fan motor or cap...common...now it could be a clogged filter if they put one at the unit outdoors. could be a moldy and dusty clogged evap coil. the filter is inside the house and that is the first thing that i checked. when i open the cover the filter fell out into my hands no suction at all. both units are made by payne with the dead one being either a py1p or a py2p. they are both only about 3 years old. what do you think of this make ahh...carrier. icp makes them. basically other than the color carrier units. i cant recall but that unit might be the one that has a control board for the blower motor... if you are referring to the one with the led thats the one. carrier stuff will drive you nuts sometimes to diagnose. payne tempstar heil bryant....all those are icp and can be a bitch to fix. some are as simple as they get tho... if they are only 3 years old you might want to call a totalline dealer give them the serial number and check the warranty. at 3 years old you should have at least 2 years left on the parts and 7 years possible left on the compressor. or if you like mail me direct with the model and serial complete and i can get that for you. thanks steve. luckly for me since we just bought this house less than a year ago it still has the house warrantee on it and the a/c is covered by it. if they are under warranty the parts are free but the labor isnt. also if you have not had them serviced they need to be at least once a year possibly twice. what needs to be done to them cleaning this is one of the things that trying to diagnose over t

From : the guy

on mon 26 apr 2004 093736 -0600 dale yonz yonzie@mac.com wrote the guy theguy@myplace.com wrote on mon 26 apr 2004 131240 gmt budd cochran mr-d150@citlinkspam.net wrote sounds familiar max. lets see.........think now. oh yes you were asked a number of times to provide some proof of your opinion. nice of you to drop in. i guess this means there are more mouths to feed huh why dont you drop out then you wouldnt have to worry about feeding us all the crap you been telling dale notice how polite i am didnt call pussy an asshole i noticed dale. again dale it is the little things that make life worthwhile. thanks. oh i could drop out i suppose. let me think about it..........ok i thought about. i dont think so. .

From : tbone

sounds familiar max. lets see.........think now. oh yes you were asked a number of times to provide some proof of your opinion. rotflmbo!!!!!!!!!!!! i drop in just to see if anything new is happening and what do i find you and your alter ego t-bone up to the same old stuff. havent you two any better use for your miserable lives i think its pretty obvious that you both are the aggressors just as i said. hey budd how are ya glad to see that you are still among the living now talk about pot kettle black lol. first you post to jerry begging for his friendship like that never happened before and then you pop in here out of the blue attacking theguy and me and you accuse us of being the aggressors. when was the last time i said anything about you but here you are attacking me again. then again and speaking of aggressor there are far more posts in this thread from max than there are from me. gawd! how many times did i ask for you or t-bone to give proof about a comment and you both did just what you accuse max of. and yet you expect max to give you proof and when he can he does which doesnt say much for his most recent arguments. btw there is no proof for opinions. then perhaps you should explain that to max who keeps claiming that the k&n is below factory spec but has yet to show the numbers. if he feels that they are not worth the risk and expense so be it but when you then claim that they are below a factory spec that is not an opinion and needs to be backed up when asked for. and poor t-bone .... who flunked percentages so bad they should have held him back twenty years in school. 20 years in high school huh is that how long you were there it seems that way - hey tom 1% of any volume or concentration is still 1% of it. yea so so whether an airfilter is in a 1 part per million dirt particles environment or a 100000 parts per million dirt particles environment doesnt matter if it passes 1% of that volume or concentration more than another airfilter it simply does not filter as well. simple self-evident logic. lol while true enough the engine doesnt give a rats ass about the percentage of filtration. all it cares about is the amount of dirt getting in and that is more dependant on the total volume of dirt in the air being filtered than the possible 1% more that the k&n lets by. unless the amount of dirt in the air is pushing the paper filter to its limits the k&n will have no problem either. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : max340

then again and speaking of aggressor there are far more posts in this thread from max than there are from me. really i have a count of 301 posts so far and 76 of them are you. im not far behind at 68. but... 68 is still less than 76. so i found the next longest thread 2.99 a gallon and a staggering 55 of 143 is you. and of the last 35 posts to the mag hytec pan thread you had 15 while i was at 9. now out of 479 posts to the largest threads you posted 146 times to my 77. you posted 30% of the posts on those threads. i posted 15%. one last fact that might do you some good although youll probably ignore it. im not using your posts to justify how much or how little i post. if he feels that they are not worth the risk and expense so be it but when you then claim that they are below a factory spec that is not an opinion and needs to be backed up when asked for. i guess you missed all the posts from those who backed my opinion and the math i provided for you based on k&ns own test results as posted on their website. lol while true enough the engine doesnt give a rats ass about the percentage of filtration. all it cares about is the amount of dirt getting in arent those closely related as in add the two together and find the total amount of dirt and that is more dependant on the total volume of dirt in the air being filtered than the possible 1% more that the k&n lets by. the amount of dirt that gets past the filter depends on both the amount of dirt in the air and how much the filter will allow to pass. unless the amount of dirt in the air is pushing the paper filter to its limits the k&n will have no problem either. which is proof of your lack of knowledge. pushing the paper filter to its limits thats a joke right max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

i think that this particular situation is a case of somebody that should have but didnt. maybe they learned a little bit from it so it may not happen again. wont happen with my truck anyway lol max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : denny

max not in this case. the labor time guide would probably pay about .2 for replacing a shock which would include diag. which leaves this as an even more silly situation. if they arent getting paid to look for the problem why waste time with not having the part on hand i have two options here i could admit to not having an answer for that or i could make up a long bs answer to it. ill take the first option.. g drivability concerns will give you drb test time .3 hr i think on top of the failed part time. so what you are saying is they had .7 of an hour to look at and swap a set of shocks. thats about 45 minutes. they spent half that time driving my truck in and out of the service bay and putting it up and down on a lift. just because there were no shocks on the shelf. really just the .4 as youre not going to get any extra diag time for shocks. yes that just makes it even more of a loosing situation for the shop and the customer. techs/shops do not get rich doing warrenty work. dcs time is generally 1/2 to 2/3 of the time that all-data would pay. no doubt. im not disagreeing with you im saying that your info makes the situation all the more intolerable. they had my truck way too much for the problem and they screwed themselves in the deal. how is that five star service and is that why dealerships may not care to hold the standard i think that this particular situation is a case of somebody that should have but didnt. maybe they learned a little bit from it so it may not happen again. denny max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : budd cochran

first you post to jerry begging for his friendship. tell me something tom ... who would you ask for advice on fishing for catfish someone that has demonstrated knowledge of the subject or a politician no one here in moab is willing to talk about them because theyre afraid you might catch a bigger fish than they did as near as i can figure. i remember jerry having some good answers in the catfishing group and for whatever reason i cant find that group now. it might be my server no longer carries it. they dropped a bunch of groups about a year ago claiming they were not being frequented enough. if jerry decides to help me its not because im begging for friendship i just have a few questions itll be because he chooses to help. if he chooses to not help no prob ill just have to keep looking until i find some assistance elsewhere. but id rather get info from a person that i have confidence in a form of trust as it were. jerry fits the bill. if he wants to give an alternate email address like a hotmail account thats fine with me. btw i appreciate your concern over the number of friends i have but in reality i think you should be concerned over the number of friends you have. let me list him for you you have your number one yes man soothsayer brown noser and alter-ego theguy. end of list. budd .

From : cbhvac stephen

*cbhvac* stephen@screweduponpurpose@carolinabreezehvac.com wrote in *cbhvac* stephen@screweduponpurpose@carolinabreezehvac.com wrote in please dont even talk about air conditioners. its 86 degrees in the shade and neither of my 2 central acs are working. i cant remember...you in this area seriously...ng members i have no problem with looking them over and such for free.. unfortunately no i am up in nc but thanks for the offer just the same. k..not a problem..just remember i go as far east as raliegh/durham and west as far as boone...north to va and licenced in sc now too. i guess that you do cover my area. for some reason i thought that you were in florida. the house is still under warranty so they will have to deal with it for now but ill keep you in mind down the road if you are taking on any new customers. i remember at one point that you were not. hell..just ask...isnt a problem...all part of the j o b. actually the upstairs one seems to be working but i am not sure how well. the load may just be to great for it. possible. most of the units we see like this are simply undersized as most guys cant seem to do a proper load calc and understand that in most homes here the upper unit will be larger by at least half a ton or they screw the pooch on the ductwork and the units working like hell but cant move the air over fast enough. possible i dont know enough about a/c systems to give you a clue. this whole house is using those black insulated hose like flexible ducts but the return can suck the bedroom door closed and its on the opposite side of the house so i dont think that airflow is the problem. but then again i dont have the tools to measure the static pressure in the main output duct either. pulling the door shut may or may not be an issue. in order for the unit to cool or heat properly its got to move air...whatever goes out the supply better be going back to the return. air being fluid is going to flow like water...the path of least resistance..that door...its a resistance.. sounds like its good tho... the upstairs unit is in the attic furnace / ac combo which gets as hot as hell during the daytime. would a powered attic ventilator help it out enough to be worth putting one in not always. a powered ventilator will simply reduce slightly the load on the home but not as greatly as one might think. the unit being in the attic really means little as the airflow should be fast enough that the air is not there long enough to pick up much if any really measureable heat gain imposed by the attic space. in southen ca most every unit was either installed in the attic or had ductwork there as most of the better homes were of slab construction....no place to run duct in the crawl or underneath. this information will save me some time money and aggrivation thanks steve. np... i hear that replacing it with a larger unit can get real expensive. the downstairs unit is an external combo unit everything inside the one box. package unit. easy as hell to work on in most cases. you might think so but the genius that built the house put a heavy screening fence less than a foot from the main access cover. fortunately when you said that they are easy to work on i went and looked and discovered this problem and removed the fence. if not when the service people got here they would have probably said it was inaccessible and left. it is bad enough that there is currently no service disconnect near the unit. ummm.....the service disconnect better be within reach or at least within eyeshot of the unit..sheesh..i wont dream of putting one out there without one. depending on the age of the home it might have been installed prior to the new code. the new code is that it better be within reach while servicing the unit and have a gfi with a recepticle within 15 feet of the unit. the fencing...that might have been a county or city thing. out in palm springs ca for example if you could see it from the road it better be screeened....go figure.. ok..it was for hiding the units and making the place look.....cleaner..in some way. the condenser cooling fan runs when you turn it on but nothing is coming out so i guess that something to do with the main blower has failed. probably. relay or the fan motor or cap...common...now it could be a clogged filter if they put one at the unit outdoors. could be a moldy and dusty clogged evap coil. the filter is inside the house and that is the first thing that i checked. when i open the cover the filter fell out into my hands no suction at all. if you smoke something you can do is light a cig and see if the smoke is pulled rapidly into the return. nc breaks the manual d duct sizing calculations and limits the airflow over the free area of the filter to 450cfm..greatly reduced from what manual d will al

From : Annonymous

on mon 26 apr 2004 083506 -0400 stephen harding harding@cs.umass.edu wrote tom lawrence wrote wednesday night driving home one of my batteries decides to explode yes explode - as in bang!. thats a whole nother story... whats the drill in dealing with this to prevent acid damage to anything that might have got an acid spray i guess just hose everything down with water water and acid under some conditions puddle of acid + drop or two of water is not a good mix. is there some sort of neutralizing spray that is used what would the dealer do to mitigate any corrosive effect of battery acid on metal/rubber/plastic materials smh baking soda rinse to neutralize the acid. .

From : Annonymous

on 26 apr 2004 022646 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote you are so full of it. bring proof. all of what youve said has been countered by individuals who are at least as qualified as you claim to be. service and parts at the dealership i worked at generally covered the entire operating cost of the dealership except for salesmens comissions plus returned a profit. so im not full of it since i already agreed with this. we regularly exceded that number. no doubt. parts at one place i worked grossed over a million dollars a year several years running. target rate for dealers was iirc 54% or 55%. real world average was something between 35% and 45%. we averaged between 85 and 130+%. in the ten years i was service manager. so what all this does is prove im correct and not full of it when i say service and parts are about profit. if you rip off one customer or sell them something that voids their warranty every customer and potential customer they know will find out about it in short order. and you are screwed!!!! i suggest that along with what ive said about ripping off a customer regarding aftermarket parts you also look at how many new vehicle dealerships sell k&n filters. ill bet there is a direct corelation between dealership satisfaction and the number that do not sell products that increase customer dissatisfaction. there were modifications we sold to clients that we knew were against manufacturers policy - and usually they were sold after expiration of warranty and with the customers full awareness and ok. again this proves that the customer accepts the liability. no it means unless the dealer specifies it is not warrantable the dealer accepts the responsibility occaisionally they were done while under warranty with the customer knowing that any failure in any related system was their responsibility. ok so im full of it but you just said exactly what ive been saying all along. wtf no it is not what you said. if i as service manager agree to a modification or sell the modification without written notification that it may void warranty and unless the customer signs accepting the responsibility the dealer and or manufacturer of the vehicle are on the hook for any warranty costs incurred. never had one cause a failure - never had a claim denied because of a modification. lucky them. they accepted the risk and it worked out for them. even had some claims accepted on client modified vehicles that i would have stated were definitely caused by the modification. even luckier for them. why didnt you state the cause ok. customer installed a lift kit on his 4x4 which did not address the driveline angle change and universal joint and diff pinion gear went south. manufacturer covered the repair stating that although it was contributed to by the change in driveline angle their stuff was tougher than that and should not have failed this early. if it had happened at the end of the warranty term instead of early-mid they may have denied the claim. it is not in the manufacturers best interest to piss off a customer by denying a warranty claim as the only way the manufacturer makes money as opposed to the dealer is when that customer buys another vehicle from one of their dealerships. yet as weve seen from mike and others manufacturers regularly educate their dealer network about what voids a claim and what to reject. it is a case of cya. at the service training seminars they will often bring out some real red herrings. only a very short sighted manufacturers rep will deny warranty on a questionable repair unless hes either having a real bad day or the claim is totally outside the realm of questionable. while true the manufacturer will stop accepting claims which are clearly a violation of the warranty terms. this is because at some point the balance of possible incoming revenue vs. real losses to warranty claim fails. like i said totally beyond questionable gets denied. any chance of loosing in court and they pay up. if they genuinely feel the failure was caused by a modification they will let you know it wont happen again - and your warranty file is tagged - meaning you are under close scrutiny yup im so full of it you repeated most of what ive said including repeating verbatim what ive said about warranty responsibility. no maxi - you just read what you want to hear. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

there were modifications we sold to clients that we knew were against manufacturers policy - and usually they were sold after expiration of warranty and with the customers full awareness and ok. you state very plainly that 1 the warranty had expired and 2 the customer was fully aware and approved of the installation. both statements prove that the dealership is off the hook for the warranty. no it means unless the dealer specifies it is not warrantable the dealer accepts the responsibility the dealer specifies this on a new vehicle by having the customer sign the paperwork accepting delivery of the new vehicle and the warranty paperwork on it. like it or not that is the official notification to the customer of what the warranty entails and allows. unless the customer signs accepting the responsibility the dealer and or manufacturer of the vehicle are on the hook for any warranty costs incurred. the customer does this at delivery of the new vehicle. even luckier for them. why didnt you state the cause ok. customer installed a lift kit on his 4x4 which did not address the driveline angle change and universal joint and diff pinion gear went south. manufacturer covered the repair stating that although it was contributed to by the change in driveline angle their stuff was tougher than that and should not have failed this early. if it had happened at the end of the warranty term instead of early-mid they may have denied the claim. but you said you would have stated it on the warranty claim. now you say you did yet as weve seen from mike and others manufacturers regularly educate their dealer network about what voids a claim and what to reject. it is a case of cya. at the service training seminars they will often bring out some real red herrings. ok but if its cya they couldnt be too off track. they must be cya for a reason. yup im so full of it you repeated most of what ive said including repeating verbatim what ive said about warranty responsibility. no maxi - you just read what you want to hear. i read what you typed. if you arent saying what you want to be or you are repeating what i said then its your problem. in the mean time according to what youve said im not full of it. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : tbone

then again and speaking of aggressor there are far more posts in this thread from max than there are from me. really i have a count of 301 posts so far and 76 of them are you. im not far behind at 68. but... 68 is still less than 76. like i said max when you can prove a point you do every time and since yuo have been doing it so little lately... so i found the next longest thread 2.99 a gallon and a staggering 55 of 143 is you. lol it is still less times than you did in this one. and of the last 35 posts to the mag hytec pan thread you had 15 while i was at 9. the lest 35 lol. perhaps that is because you wimped out. now out of 479 posts to the largest threads you posted 146 times to my 77. perhaps you shouldnt include threads that you were not involved it. oh fuzzy math and all that. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : Annonymous

on 27 apr 2004 034055 gmt max340@aol.compost max340 wrote there were modifications we sold to clients that we knew were against manufacturers policy - and usually they were sold after expiration of warranty and with the customers full awareness and ok. you state very plainly that 1 the warranty had expired and 2 the customer was fully aware and approved of the installation. both statements prove that the dealership is off the hook for the warranty. no it means unless the dealer specifies it is not warrantable the dealer accepts the responsibility the dealer specifies this on a new vehicle by having the customer sign the paperwork accepting delivery of the new vehicle and the warranty paperwork on it. like it or not that is the official notification to the customer of what the warranty entails and allows. unless the customer signs accepting the responsibility the dealer and or manufacturer of the vehicle are on the hook for any warranty costs incurred. the customer does this at delivery of the new vehicle. even luckier for them. why didnt you state the cause ok. customer installed a lift kit on his 4x4 which did not address the driveline angle change and universal joint and diff pinion gear went south. manufacturer covered the repair stating that although it was contr

From : tbone

first you post to jerry begging for his friendship. tell me something tom ... who would you ask for advice on fishing for catfish not somebody who has claimed not to like me for whatever reason. someone that has demonstrated knowledge of the subject or a politician no one here in moab is willing to talk about them because theyre afraid you might catch a bigger fish than they did as near as i can figure. most people will not give away their secrets to anyone but their friends and even then.... i remember jerry having some good answers in the catfishing group and for whatever reason i cant find that group now. it might be my server no longer carries it. they dropped a bunch of groups about a year ago claiming they were not being frequented enough. well my new server sucks too so i cant make any comment on that. you might want to try giga. my server has alt.fishing.catfish. is that the one you are looking for if jerry decides to help me its not because im begging for friendship i just have a few questions itll be because he chooses to help. if he chooses to not help no prob ill just have to keep looking until i find some assistance elsewhere. but id rather get info from a person that i have confidence in a form of trust as it were. jerry fits the bill. if he wants to give an alternate email address like a hotmail account thats fine with me. i was being scarcastic you really need to mellow out a little. btw i appreciate your concern over the number of friends i have but in reality i think you should be concerned over the number of friends you have. well budd my friends are in the real world not in this ng. let me list him for you you have your number one yes man soothsayer brown noser and alter-ego theguy. lol you sound like you are jealous. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : theguy

on tue 27 apr 2004 152754 gmt tbone t-bonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote first you post to jerry begging for his friendship. tell me something tom ... who would you ask for advice on fishing for catfish geez you havent changed one bit. here you are back after months and the first thing you do is ask about catfishing. i realize that you were trying to use it as an example trying to make a point but only you could try to make a point in a k&n fight using catfishing. for crying out loud. now if you really want to know about catfishing go out and do it budd. experiment around. they are not so hard to catch. you may be fishing in the wrong areas. catfish move around too. they dont just spend their whole lives in the deepest hole in the friggin river like most newby catfishermen think. in the spring you can move toward the shallower water early and late. ive caught them bouncing a worm in fast water this time of year like you would do for a steelhead. honestly. also in all seriousness havent seen you here for a long time and in spite of our history hope all is well with your health and your life. i mean that honestly too. not somebody who has claimed not to like me for whatever reason. someone that has demonstrated knowledge of the subject or a politician no one here in moab is willing to talk about them because theyre afraid you might catch a bigger fish than they did as near as i can figure. most people will not give away their secrets to anyone but their friends and even then.... i remember jerry having some good answers in the catfishing group and for whatever reason i cant find that group now. it might be my server no longer carries it. they dropped a bunch of groups about a year ago claiming they were not being frequented enough. well my new server sucks too so i cant make any comment on that. you might want to try giga. my server has alt.fishing.catfish. is that the one you are looking for if jerry decides to help me its not because im begging for friendship i just have a few questions itll be because he chooses to help. if he chooses to not help no prob ill just have to keep looking until i find some assistance elsewhere. but id rather get info from a person that i have confidence in a form of trust as it were. jerry fits the bill. if he wants to give an alternate email address like a hotmail account thats fine with me. i was being scarcastic you really need to mellow out a little. btw i appreciate your concern over the number of friends i have but in reality i think you should be concerned over the number of friends you have. well budd my friends are in the real world not in this ng. let me list him for you you have your number one yes man soothsayer brown noser and alter-ego theguy. lol you sound like you are jealous. .

From : max340

good bye max. i take it youve run out of bullshit good riddance btw. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : paul jensen

there is no fine print on the k&n bullshit. how about getting a scan of that and posting it here better yet how about going to the website and reading the letter yourself reads like a huge disclaimer all the way through. because you said bullshit to my comment about there must be fine print on the packaging. so produce the fine print on the packaging or call yourself a liar. .

From : paul jensen

nice of you to drop in. i guess this means there are more mouths to feed huh guess well have to raise the price of the k&ns at the dealership. .

From : paul jensen

iow not having a set of shocks for a vehicle they sell daily either on the shelf or brought in from a local supplier is inexcusable when claiming five star service. obviously no local supplier had the shocks either otherwise they would have been there in 30 minutes. .

From : paul jensen

im gonna assume something here that your truck is under warrenty. it was at the time. well then theyre damn sure not gonna call napa and have them bring a set of shocks. .

From : tbone

dude you are wasting your time. max is never wrong about anything lol -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving there is no fine print on the k&n bullshit. how about getting a scan of that and posting it here better yet how about going to the website and reading the letter yourself reads like a huge disclaimer all the way through. because you said bullshit to my comment about there must be fine print on the packaging. so produce the fine print on the packaging or call yourself a liar. .

From : max340

obviously no local supplier had the shocks either otherwise they would have been there in 30 minutes. according to denny they cannot use outside sources on warranty work. which concurs with the fact that i was able to locate 5 pairs for the truck within an hour of making an appointment for the truck to get the set they had to ship in. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : max340

because you said bullshit to my comment about there must be fine print on the packaging. so produce the fine print on the packaging or call yourself a liar. the fine print is on the website easily accessable to you. max life liberty and the pursuit of any jackass that threatens it. embellished usnavy slogan .

From : tbone

hell..just ask...isnt a problem...all part of the j o b. i may do that. not that is matters now. they were not comming to wed and just for the hell of it i turned it on and it was working again. there is not much that they can do when everything is functional and the outside temp is low so i canceled the order. pulling the door shut may or may not be an issue. in order for the unit to cool or heat properly its got to move air...whatever goes out the supply better be going back to the return. air being fluid is going to flow like water...the path of least resistance..that door...its a resistance.. sounds like its good tho... it seems to move enough air just doesnt seem to get it very cold. i guess that with the downstairs unit not helping there is no way for it to cool down the upstairs. i hear that replacing it with a larger unit can get real expensive. the downstairs unit is an external combo unit everything inside the one box. package unit. easy as hell to work on in most cases. you might think so but the genius that built the house put a heavy screening fence less than a foot from the main access cover. fortunately when you said that they are easy to work on i went and looked and discovered this problem and removed the fence. if not when the service people got here they would have probably said it was inaccessible and left. it is bad enough that there is currently no service disconnect near the unit. ummm.....the service disconnect better be within reach or at least within eyeshot of the unit..sheesh..i wont dream of putting one out there without one. that is not the installers fault its mine. it seems that here in nc they like to use those damn combo boxes that contain both the meter and some of the breakers and use a sub panel for the rest of the house. i want to put a generator in later and it would be useless with the electrical system this way. to correct that i put another panel in the basement and transfered the breakers from the combo box into it. the problem was that since the breakers for the units were in this outside pannel there was no need for service disconnects since the breakers were right there. now i will have to put them in myself but thats probably not gonna happen until i get the generator. depending on the age of the home it might have been installed prior to the new code. the new code is that it better be within reach while servicing the unit and have a gfi with a recepticle within 15 feet of the unit. the house is only three years old and i am not aware of gfi being required with any permanently wired unit. it is using standard breakers and that is what it had origionally. the fencing...that might have been a county or city thing. out in palm springs ca for example if you could see it from the road it better be screeened....go figure.. ok..it was for hiding the units and making the place look.....cleaner..in some way. i dont have a problem with that and intend to replace the fence but it was kinf of sumb to put it so close to the unit that you couldnt service it. the filter is inside the house and that is the first thing that i checked. when i open the cover the filter fell out into my hands no suction at all. if you smoke something you can do is light a cig and see if the smoke is pulled rapidly into the return. nc breaks the manual d duct sizing calculations and limits the airflow over the free area of the filter to 450cfm..greatly reduced from what manual d will allow. thats why you see up to 4 returns on large units and on 2.5 ton units 30000btu you will see a 24x24 or 16x25 etc.. it has a 20 x 25 filter and another location is roughed in but will never be used as its location would be in the ceiling of my wood shop and i really dont think of that as the optimum location to be sucking air from. if you are referring to the one with the led thats the one. umm..could be..that could also be the defrost board depending on if its gas...or heat pump... it is gas fired rejetted for propane and iit is the same board that was in the carrier weathermaker at my wifes condo. thanks steve. luckly for me since we just bought this house less than a year ago it still has the house warrantee on it and the a/c is covered by it. if its home shield or 2-10...or gasp...american republic...goooooood luck. the units own warranty should stand on its own..the home warranty should take up the labor slack.. home shield. if they are under warranty the parts are free but the labor isnt. also if you have not had them serviced they need to be at least once a year possibly twice. what needs to be done to them cleaning cleaning of the coils with a cleaner that you normally cant buy over the counter unless licenced...nc is real strict on that. checking the superheat adjusting charge if needed fan speeds amp draw

From : cbhvac stephen

hell..just ask...isnt a problem...all part of the j o b. i may do that. not that is matters now. they were not comming to wed and just for the hell of it i turned it on and it was working again. there is not much that they can do when everything is functional and the outside temp is low so i canceled the order. ok...just so you know..if its above 60f they can check it if they know how...thats a given. if and this is a miiiighty big if...if your motor is indeed about to check out and its tripping on thermal overload then and only then would the heat of the day even partially come into play....but have seen it once or twice.. pulling the door shut may or may not be an issue. in order for the unit to cool or heat properly its got to move air...whatever goes out the supply better be going back to the return. air being fluid is going to flow like water...the path of least resistance..that door...its a resistance.. sounds like its good tho... it seems to move enough air just doesnt seem to get it very cold. i guess that with the downstairs unit not helping there is no way for it to cool down the upstairs. if both units are working correctly duct is in order and sized correctly the upper unit would strain a bit if the lower unit was not working but it should perform alright...i have a customer in mathews that has a pretty large home...about 4200sf the lower unit a york was never hooked up right and the upper unit was working well enough to cool both the upstairs pretty well and the downstairs wasnt bad..he didnt even know the outer unit for the lower level was not working....till it got into the upper 80s for a week. it wasnt one of my installs...it was actually a model home and it was only there apparently for looks...weird..had to be there...it was an experence... i hear that replacing it with a larger unit can get real expensive. btw..expensive depends... i took the wife to the airport this morning stopped off and got 4 1.5 ton heat pumps and all the duct to go with them and will charge only about 9900 for the complete job on one apartment building...thats four units tho.... depends on the tonnage btu rating blower needed afue and seer. the downstairs unit is an external combo unit everything inside the one box. package unit. easy as hell to work on in most cases. you might think so but the genius that built the house put a heavy screening fence less than a foot from the main access cover. fortunately when you said that they are easy to work on i went and looked and discovered this problem and removed the fence. if not when the service people got here they would have probably said it was inaccessible and left. it is bad enough that there is currently no service disconnect near the unit. ummm.....the service disconnect better be within reach or at least within eyeshot of the unit..sheesh..i wont dream of putting one out there without one. that is not the installers fault its mine. it seems that here in nc they like to use those damn combo boxes that contain both the meter and some of the breakers and use a sub panel for the rest of the house. i want to put a generator in later and it would be useless with the electrical system this way. to correct that i put another panel in the basement and transfered the breakers from the combo box into it. the problem was that since the breakers for the units were in this outside pannel there was no need for service disconnects since the breakers were right there. now i will have to put them in myself but thats probably not gonna happen until i get the generator. i kinda like those boxes....the electricians love em....but agreed. i had mine switched over so that my 400amp panel was in the basement...what in hell i need 400amps for in this place is beyond me..but i have room for expansion.. depending on the age of the home it might have been installed prior to the new code. the new code is that it better be within reach while servicing the unit and have a gfi with a recepticle within 15 feet of the unit. the house is only three years old and i am not aware of gfi being required with any permanently wired unit. it is using standard breakers and that is what it had origionally. its in the nec and i think the nc mech code...res. i have to check on the mech code but its for sure in the nec new rules...i was thinking this went back 3 years..but it might have been in the last 2... now in order to get a unit passed you must have a 115vac outlet gfi weatherproof out with the disconnect...matter of fact most suppliers have now started to carry a disconnect that has the pullout on it and a gfi in the lower section...i love those...need to hook up a vac pump or a scale and you have power right there.....no cord needed... the fencing...that might have been a county or city thing. out in palm springs ca for exa