HHO?
From : beekeep
Q: anybody here try any of the new hho systems on their gas engines the amish are using them around here and say they really work. im inclined to believe them as they wont spend any more than they have too. the systems look simple enough and claim to increase your mpg by 18% to 30%. theyre burning filtered used motor oil in their diesels up to 50% mixed with fuel oil as well and say they are having no problems. as a side note the stoltzfus lumber mill is installing a 800 hp steam engine and are planning on powering the entire mill with it burning their waste. it should be quite an attraction when it is up and running. the flywheel is about 6 feet in diameter. beekeep .
Replies:
From : peterd
on sat 6 sep 2008 171326 -0400 nunya nunya@nunya.net wrote snip as a side note the stoltzfus lumber mill is installing a 800 hp steam engine and are planning on powering the entire mill with it burning their waste. it should be quite an attraction when it is up and running. the flywheel is about 6 feet in diameter. beekeep what state are they in in many states you need a license to run a steam engine. too many people were getting killed at fairs when their operators let them run low on water. also what horsepower rating are they using sae boiler h.p. nebraska horsepower or something else when i think of horsepower ratings as relating to steam i tend to automatically think nebraska. i have operated several steam engines in the 65 to 85 h.p. range and when i first read 800 h.p. my little pea brain started reeling. an 85 hp tractor is huge. then i stepped back into the modern century and got control. another piece of idle curiosity since they are a business will the epa have a say about them burning wood for fuel as it relates to emissions michael michael afaik this type of operation is common in many parts of the country... not terribly unusual most generate electricity using waste wood and use the electricity to run machinery. however often it is a steam turbine not a steam engine... .
From : nunya
snip as a side note the stoltzfus lumber mill is installing a 800 hp steam engine and are planning on powering the entire mill with it burning their waste. it should be quite an attraction when it is up and running. the flywheel is about 6 feet in diameter. beekeep what state are they in in many states you need a license to run a steam engine. too many people were getting killed at fairs when their operators let them run low on water. also what horsepower rating are they using sae boiler h.p. nebraska horsepower or something else when i think of horsepower ratings as relating to steam i tend to automatically think nebraska. i have operated several steam engines in the 65 to 85 h.p. range and when i first read 800 h.p. my little pea brain started reeling. an 85 hp tractor is huge. then i stepped back into the modern century and got control. another piece of idle curiosity since they are a business will the epa have a say about them burning wood for fuel as it relates to emissions michael .
From : steve w
tom lawrence wrote tom figure the normal thermal efficiency of a typical gas engine runs about 33%. even with that number hho is a farce. true - but why would you think the combustion of hydrogen would translate any better into mechanical energy as opposed to thermal energy than the combustion of gasoline it doesnt. but the heat energy the engine uses is what many of the hho crowd point at. then claim that hho increases efficiency to 100% the problem is that regardless of the fuel that 33% is about all the typical ice can use to produce power. even though it does burn closer to 99% of the fuel that enters it. -- steve w. .
From : tom lawrence
tom figure the normal thermal efficiency of a typical gas engine runs about 33%. even with that number hho is a farce. true - but why would you think the combustion of hydrogen would translate any better into mechanical energy as opposed to thermal energy than the combustion of gasoline .
From : steve w
tom lawrence wrote ive seen loco diesels run away burning lube oil. but a gas engine well sure - because its sucking oil in from the crankcase and you cant control it. but gregs talking about filtering drained-out used motor oil and dumping it back in the tank to be burned as if it were diesel fuel in a diesel not a gas engine. i can see that working with older lower-pressure fuel injection systems. i dont see it working with the newer higher-pressure common rail injection systems - i would think the fuel would be too viscous even diluted 50% with diesel to atomize properly through the tight tight clearances in the injectors. as for the hho stuff lets think about it. to increase fuel economy 30% the hydrogen would have to make up the energy produced by 30% of the gasoline. lets say a vehicle gets 20mpg. 30% of that is 7.5mpg. or looked at another way running 20mpg @ 60mph the hydrogen has to make up for .9 gallons of gasoline because were consuming 3gph. the energy content of gasoline is about 34.6 megajoules per liter so that .9 gallons or 3.4 liters of gasoline contains 117.8 megajoules of energy. how much hydrogen does it take to generate 117.8mj of energy since were talking about gaseous hydrogen at normal atmospheric pressire we need 10924 liters of hydrogen per hour somehow i dont think were producing that from a little bit of water and some 12v-inspired electrolysis. okay okay.... you say burning gasoline isnt near 100% efficient and burning hydrogen is or almost is. fine. lets say burning gasoline is only 50% efficient. now you only need 5462 liters of hydrogen per hour. thats 1.5 liters of hydrogen every second or .136 grams of hydrogen. a gram of water is 11.1% hydrogen so we need to electrolyze 1.23 grams of water to get .136 grams of hydrogen and assuming zero loss - tricky to do with such a small molocule. that means to sustain that we need to go through 4428 grams of water per hour. given that it takes at a minimum around 13700 watt-hours to convert 1 gallon of water to hydrogen and there are 3785.4 milliliters in a gallon and each milliliter weighs 1 gram give or take depending on temp. we need 16025 watt-hours of electrical energy to maintain that rate of hydrogen production. that means we need a constant supply of 16025 watts of electricity which at 13.8v of most 12v auto electrical systems is 1161 amps. so yeah - if you have just under 1200 amps of spare power coming off your alternator then sure - strap on a water tank hook up the hho generator and enjoy a 30% savings in fuel. but but but... were producing oxygen too so thatll help out combustion. well weve already got plenty of o2 coming in from the air intake but i get your point... thats only 21% oxygen and the hho generator is producing pure o2. fine - so its like a built-in supercharger. give yourself a 20% improvement. now we only need 960 amps. crap-tacular... were still around 8x the normal vehicles electrical system capacity. conclusion hho generators that run off of a vehicles electrical system are useless. the extra weight of them plus their water supply probably outweighs any efficiency increase they provide. tom figure the normal thermal efficiency of a typical gas engine runs about 33%. even with that number hho is a farce. -- steve w. near cooperstown new york life is not like a box of chocolates its more like a jar of jalapenos- what you do today could burn your ass tomorrow! .
From : tom lawrence
ive seen loco diesels run away burning lube oil. but a gas engine well sure - because its sucking oil in from the crankcase and you cant control it. but gregs talking about filtering drained-out used motor oil and dumping it back in the tank to be burned as if it were diesel fuel in a diesel not a gas engine. i can see that working with older lower-pressure fuel injection systems. i dont see it working with the newer higher-pressure common rail injection systems - i would think the fuel would be too viscous even diluted 50% with diesel to atomize properly through the tight tight clearances in the injectors. as for the hho stuff lets think about it. to increase fuel economy 30% the hydrogen would have to make up the energy produced by 30% of the gasoline. lets say a vehicle gets 20mpg. 30% of that is 7.5mpg. or looked at another way running 20mpg @ 60mph the hydrogen has to make up for .9 gallons of gasoline because were consuming 3gph. the energy content of gasoline is about 34.6 megajoules per liter so that .9 gallons or 3.4 liters of gasoline contains 117.8 megajoules of energy. how much hydrogen does it take to generate 117.8mj of energy since were talking about gaseous hydrogen at normal atmospheric pressire we need 10924 liters of hydrogen per hour somehow i dont think were producing that from a little bit of water and some 12v-inspired electrolysis. okay okay.... you say burning gasoline isnt near 100% efficient and burning hydrogen is or almost is. fine. lets say burning gasoline is only 50% efficient. now you only need 5462 liters of hydrogen per hour. thats 1.5 liters of hydrogen every second or .136 grams of hydrogen. a gram of water is 11.1% hydrogen so we need to electrolyze 1.23 grams of water to get .136 grams of hydrogen and assuming zero loss - tricky to do with such a small molocule. that means to sustain that we need to go through 4428 grams of water per hour. given that it takes at a minimum around 13700 watt-hours to convert 1 gallon of water to hydrogen and there are 3785.4 milliliters in a gallon and each milliliter weighs 1 gram give or take depending on temp. we need 16025 watt-hours of electrical energy to maintain that rate of hydrogen production. that means we need a constant supply of 16025 watts of electricity which at 13.8v of most 12v auto electrical systems is 1161 amps. so yeah - if you have just under 1200 amps of spare power coming off your alternator then sure - strap on a water tank hook up the hho generator and enjoy a 30% savings in fuel. but but but... were producing oxygen too so thatll help out combustion. well weve already got plenty of o2 coming in from the air intake but i get your point... thats only 21% oxygen and the hho generator is producing pure o2. fine - so its like a built-in supercharger. give yourself a 20% improvement. now we only need 960 amps. crap-tacular... were still around 8x the normal vehicles electrical system capacity. conclusion hho generators that run off of a vehicles electrical system are useless. the extra weight of them plus their water supply probably outweighs any efficiency increase they provide. .
From : peterd
on sat 30 aug 2008 000645 gmt honeybs@radix.net beekeep wrote anybody here try any of the new hho systems on their gas engines of course not do we *look* stupid the amish are using them around here and say they really work. of course they work horses need water and oats. im inclined to believe them as they wont spend any more than they have too. the systems look simple enough and claim to increase your mpg by 18% to 30%. uh with the amish that is 18% to 30% more miles per bag of oats... theyre burning filtered used motor oil in their diesels up to 50% mixed with fuel oil as well and say they are having no problems. and your point or question is as a side note the stoltzfus lumber mill is installing a 800 hp steam engine and are planning on powering the entire mill with it burning their waste. wood powered vehicles have been around for some time about 100+ years to be exact. it should be quite an attraction when it is up and running. the flywheel is about 6 feet in diameter. that all small one isnt it. beekeep .
From : roy
anybody here try any of the new hho systems on their gas engines the amish are using them around here and say they really work. im inclined to believe them as they wont spend any more than they have too. the systems look simple enough and claim to increase your mpg by 18% to 30%. theyre burning filtered used motor oil in their diesels up to 50% mixed with fuel oil as well and say they are having no problems. ive seen loco diesels run away burning lube oil. but a gas engine as a side note the stoltzfus lumber mill is installing a 800 hp steam engine and are planning on powering the entire mill with it burning their waste. it should be quite an attraction when it is up and running. the flywheel is about 6 feet in diameter. thatd be cool to see. roy beekeep .