HELP Starting and Stalling Problem LONG

From : tom

Q: my problem started as a nuisance and progressively worsened into a disabled vehicle. i have a 1994 dodge b2500 ram van 3.9 l mpfi with 88k. a few months ago it would occasionally crank excessively and finally fire up. i found this got worse and more frequent. when cold the fuel would take some time to prime usually about 10 - 20 seconds. once hot the motor would start on the first crank and continue to fire up through out the day. the problem only occurred when the engine was cold. i have since replaced the spark plugs wires air cleaner pcv valve breather distributor cap and rotor and finally the fuel pump. i also tested the operation of the map crankshaft postion sensor camshaft position sensor throttle position sensor and the idle air control. this did not fix the problem. it may have created a new one. now it takes approximately 2- 10 minutes to prime the fuel. a pressure tester shows 40 psi at the fuel rail once primed. now however the autoshutdown and the fuel pump relays chatter for several minutes. they toggle on and off very quickly - several times per second. while this happens the fuel pressure climbs and when it reaches 40 psi the relays stop clicking and the ignition is enabled. once the relays stop making noise the motor turns right over and fires up easily. i tried to ground the relay pcm ground wire dk blue with yellow stripe directly to negative battery terminal. this forced the fuel pump on but would not allow me to start the engine. i assume this is because although i had fuel pressure i had no spark. it would not fire until the jumper was disconnected and the relays were allowed to continue chattering until they stopped. the diagnostics show a code 12 - pcm voltage and a 45 overdrive solenoid. i finally took it to the dealer who spent a few minute with it but once the tech realized i had installed an aftermarket alarm and remote starter he would not investigate any further. i realize the wiring modifications could cause the intermittent power failure but theyre not new - theyve been working fine for four years. and if it was the cause why would it only occur when the engine is cold i have checked the wiring connections and all appear ok. the dealer said i would have to disconnect the systems before tehy will analyze any further. i am willing to do this but in the meantime it now stalls ive been able to live with the starting issue. it only takes a few extra minutes to prime the pump. since this problem only occurs after teh van sits for a long period of time ive spent weeks trying to troubleshoot it! once the motor is warm it starts fine. but nowperhaps i screwed up something while troubleshooting the engine wont accelerate smoothly past idle speed. if i give it a little gas it sputters rather violently and then stalls. if i give it a lot of gas it sputters and revs past the stalling point and then it runs ok. well i have lost a lot of power now and i keep the van in the driveway until i can figure this mess out. i have monitored the voltage coming off the tps and it consistenly increases from 0.6vdc when closed up to 3.6 when the throttle is open. even through the stalling point. it seems to be vacuum related although vacuum is steady at 17 in hg. i relaize theis may be kind of low. it was 18 in hg when i first started messing with it but its been rock steady the whole time. i believe have two separate issues although they may be related. i thought if i spent the money the dealer five star expert techs would be able to tell me what the runnablity issue was with stalling above idle speed. unfortunately they wont go past the starting situation. why am i stalling .

Replies:

From : tbone

how old is your battery it may also need to be replaced. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving my problem started as a nuisance and progressively worsened into a disabled vehicle. i have a 1994 dodge b2500 ram van 3.9 l mpfi with 88k. a few months ago it would occasionally crank excessively and finally fire up. i found this got worse and more frequent. when cold the fuel would take some time to prime usually about 10 - 20 seconds. once hot the motor would start on the first crank and continue to fire up through out the day. the problem only occurred when the engine was cold. i have since replaced the spark plugs wires air cleaner pcv valve breather distributor cap and rotor and finally the fuel pump. i also tested the operation of the map crankshaft postion sensor camshaft position sensor throttle position sensor and the idle air control. this did not fix the problem. it may have created a new one. now it takes approximately 2- 10 minutes to prime the fuel. a pressure tester shows 40 psi at the fuel rail once primed. now however the autoshutdown and the fuel pump relays chatter for several minutes. they toggle on and off very quickly - several times per second. while this happens the fuel pressure climbs and when it reaches 40 psi the relays stop clicking and the ignition is enabled. once the relays stop making noise the motor turns right over and fires up easily. i tried to ground the relay pcm ground wire dk blue with yellow stripe directly to negative battery terminal. this forced the fuel pump on but would not allow me to start the engine. i assume this is because although i had fuel pressure i had no spark. it would not fire until the jumper was disconnected and the relays were allowed to continue chattering until they stopped. the diagnostics show a code 12 - pcm voltage and a 45 overdrive solenoid. i finally took it to the dealer who spent a few minute with it but once the tech realized i had installed an aftermarket alarm and remote starter he would not investigate any further. i realize the wiring modifications could cause the intermittent power failure but theyre not new - theyve been working fine for four years. and if it was the cause why would it only occur when the engine is cold i have checked the wiring connections and all appear ok. the dealer said i would have to disconnect the systems before tehy will analyze any further. i am willing to do this but in the meantime it now stalls ive been able to live with the starting issue. it only takes a few extra minutes to prime the pump. since this problem only occurs after teh van sits for a long period of time ive spent weeks trying to troubleshoot it! once the motor is warm it starts fine. but nowperhaps i screwed up something while troubleshooting the engine wont accelerate smoothly past idle speed. if i give it a little gas it sputters rather violently and then stalls. if i give it a lot of gas it sputters and revs past the stalling point and then it runs ok. well i have lost a lot of power now and i keep the van in the driveway until i can figure this mess out. i have monitored the voltage coming off the tps and it consistenly increases from 0.6vdc when closed up to 3.6 when the throttle is open. even through the stalling point. it seems to be vacuum related although vacuum is steady at 17 in hg. i relaize theis may be kind of low. it was 18 in hg when i first started messing with it but its been rock steady the whole time. i believe have two separate issues although they may be related. i thought if i spent the money the dealer five star expert techs would be able to tell me what the runnablity issue was with stalling above idle speed. unfortunately they wont go past the starting situation. why am i stalling .

From : tom

how old is your battery it may also need to be replaced. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving the battery is less than one year old. checked the cells ok. cleaned all the terminals all the way to the engine block. i dont think its the battery but ill try to get a voltage check under load. .

From : tom

not a thing but i have the right to mention it if i so desire. sure you do and i never said otherwise. i only asked why and as usual you were unable to answer. since the mentioning of it violated no one elses rights nor caused any physical harm and only upset one person you apparently because i didnt play according to your rules then why does it bother you so much that i mentioned it what rules did i impose i simple wanted to know what purpose it served. are you just a babbling idiot you accuse me of getting terms wrong are unable to give an example and then dump out meaningless terms to the discussion yourself. every other term that you listed had something to do with something except that one. while it violated nobodys rights to do it it also makes no sense either unless..... you got it wrong lol!!! it looks like the only one spinning in the mud is you. better go get more help form shemp on this one or perhaps moe. i get it . . .im not playing by your rules again . . . good! no larry you dont get it and sadly never will. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : sandyk

with the description that you have written and through everything that you have looked at have you looked at the fuel injecters this doesnt sound like a vaccuum problem. you may even have to have the fuel rail and the injectors cleaned. there is a process that takes about a 1/2 hour and runs around 70.00 they attach a cleaning bladder to the fuel rail the engine runs off of that and when the bladder is empty the engine stops and the system is supposed to be clean..id look at that next..does sound like you have clogged injectors.. my problem started as a nuisance and progressively worsened into a disabled vehicle. i have a 1994 dodge b2500 ram van 3.9 l mpfi with 88k. a few months ago it would occasionally crank excessively and finally fire up. i found this got worse and more frequent. when cold the fuel would take some time to prime usually about 10 - 20 seconds. once hot the motor would start on the first crank and continue to fire up through out the day. the problem only occurred when the engine was cold. i have since replaced the spark plugs wires air cleaner pcv valve breather distributor cap and rotor and finally the fuel pump. i also tested the operation of the map crankshaft postion sensor camshaft position sensor throttle position sensor and the idle air control. this did not fix the problem. it may have created a new one. now it takes approximately 2- 10 minutes to prime the fuel. a pressure tester shows 40 psi at the fuel rail once primed. now however the autoshutdown and the fuel pump relays chatter for several minutes. they toggle on and off very quickly - several times per second. while this happens the fuel pressure climbs and when it reaches 40 psi the relays stop clicking and the ignition is enabled. once the relays stop making noise the motor turns right over and fires up easily. i tried to ground the relay pcm ground wire dk blue with yellow stripe directly to negative battery terminal. this forced the fuel pump on but would not allow me to start the engine. i assume this is because although i had fuel pressure i had no spark. it would not fire until the jumper was disconnected and the relays were allowed to continue chattering until they stopped. the diagnostics show a code 12 - pcm voltage and a 45 overdrive solenoid. i finally took it to the dealer who spent a few minute with it but once the tech realized i had installed an aftermarket alarm and remote starter he would not investigate any further. i realize the wiring modifications could cause the intermittent power failure but theyre not new - theyve been working fine for four years. and if it was the cause why would it only occur when the engine is cold i have checked the wiring connections and all appear ok. the dealer said i would have to disconnect the systems before tehy will analyze any further. i am willing to do this but in the meantime it now stalls ive been able to live with the starting issue. it only takes a few extra minutes to prime the pump. since this problem only occurs after teh van sits for a long period of time ive spent weeks trying to troubleshoot it! once the motor is warm it starts fine. but nowperhaps i screwed up something while troubleshooting the engine wont accelerate smoothly past idle speed. if i give it a little gas it sputters rather violently and then stalls. if i give it a lot of gas it sputters and revs past the stalling point and then it runs ok. well i have lost a lot of power now and i keep the van in the driveway until i can figure this mess out. i have monitored the voltage coming off the tps and it consistenly increases from 0.6vdc when closed up to 3.6 when the throttle is open. even through the stalling point. it seems to be vacuum related although vacuum is steady at 17 in hg. i relaize theis may be kind of low. it was 18 in hg when i first started messing with it but its been rock steady the whole time. i believe have two separate issues although they may be related. i thought if i spent the money the dealer five star expert techs would be able to tell me what the runnablity issue was with stalling above idle speed. unfortunately they wont go past the starting situation. why am i stalling .

From : Annonymous

the fuel pump relay should not chatter. look at the voltage on both sides of the relay coil while it is doing this. most likely you either have a rusty ground problem a rusty connector problem or a bad computer. i would look at and clean every ground connection and power connector to the computer that you can find. if this cheap fix dont work then replace the computer. on 16 oct 2003 105712 -0700 chainhigh@msn.com tom wrote my problem started as a nuisance and progressively worsened into a disabled vehicle. i have a 1994 dodge b2500 ram van 3.9 l mpfi with 88k. a few months ago it would occasionally crank excessively and finally fire up. i found this got worse and more frequent. when cold the fuel would take some time to prime usually about 10 - 20 seconds. once hot the motor would start on the first crank and continue to fire up through out the day. the problem only occurred when the engine was cold. i have since replaced the spark plugs wires air cleaner pcv valve breather distributor cap and rotor and finally the fuel pump. i also tested the operation of the map crankshaft postion sensor camshaft position sensor throttle position sensor and the idle air control. this did not fix the problem. it may have created a new one. now it takes approximately 2- 10 minutes to prime the fuel. a pressure tester shows 40 psi at the fuel rail once primed. now however the autoshutdown and the fuel pump relays chatter for several minutes. they toggle on and off very quickly - several times per second. while this happens the fuel pressure climbs and when it reaches 40 psi the relays stop clicking and the ignition is enabled. once the relays stop making noise the motor turns right over and fires up easily. i tried to ground the relay pcm ground wire dk blue with yellow stripe directly to negative battery terminal. this forced the fuel pump on but would not allow me to start the engine. i assume this is because although i had fuel pressure i had no spark. it would not fire until the jumper was disconnected and the relays were allowed to continue chattering until they stopped. the diagnostics show a code 12 - pcm voltage and a 45 overdrive solenoid. i finally took it to the dealer who spent a few minute with it but once the tech realized i had installed an aftermarket alarm and remote starter he would not investigate any further. i realize the wiring modifications could cause the intermittent power failure but theyre not new - theyve been working fine for four years. and if it was the cause why would it only occur when the engine is cold i have checked the wiring connections and all appear ok. the dealer said i would have to disconnect the systems before tehy will analyze any further. i am willing to do this but in the meantime it now stalls ive been able to live with the starting issue. it only takes a few extra minutes to prime the pump. since this problem only occurs after teh van sits for a long period of time ive spent weeks trying to troubleshoot it! once the motor is warm it starts fine. but nowperhaps i screwed up something while troubleshooting the engine wont accelerate smoothly past idle speed. if i give it a little gas it sputters rather violently and then stalls. if i give it a lot of gas it sputters and revs past the stalling point and then it runs ok. well i have lost a lot of power now and i keep the van in the driveway until i can figure this mess out. i have monitored the voltage coming off the tps and it consistenly increases from 0.6vdc when closed up to 3.6 when the throttle is open. even through the stalling point. it seems to be vacuum related although vacuum is steady at 17 in hg. i relaize theis may be kind of low. it was 18 in hg when i first started messing with it but its been rock steady the whole time. i believe have two separate issues although they may be related. i thought if i spent the money the dealer five star expert techs would be able to tell me what the runnablity issue was with stalling above idle speed. unfortunately they wont go past the starting situation. why am i stalling .

From : tom

the fuel pump relay should not chatter. look at the voltage on both sides of the relay coil while it is doing this. most likely you either have a rusty ground problem a rusty connector problem or a bad computer. i would look at and clean every ground connection and power connector to the computer that you can find. if this cheap fix dont work then replace the computer. i cleaned every ground connection i could find. through the data connector from the pcm i found the ground lead a black and tan wire which is continuous with ground until i turn the key to the run position. it then goes infinite open. for a while. if i leave the key switch in run eventually the pcm grounds the following circuits intermittently the asd relay fuel pump relay egr solenoid purge solenoid. after a few minutes they start to chirp or chatter very fast. a multimeter set on continuity connected between the pcm ground bl/tn and the battery - chirps along with the clicking of the relays and solenoids. the ground circuit is continuous once the clicking stops. the motor will always start at this point. i also noticed the check engine light does not illuminate until this warmup period is over. if it is lit i know i can start the engine. during this same period i measured the voltage coming off the asd output and found it starting at millivolts and then ratcheting up 1.1 1.3 1.5 2.0 2.02 etc. up to 12 vdc. when it hits 12 the engine starts right up. i also measured a steady 12vdc at the dkblue wire in the data connector when ever the key switch is in run or start. what would interrupt the pcm ground it must be internal to the pcm or am i missing something .