Gas boycott? You gotta be kidding!!

From : Annonymous

Q: who killed god and /or kicked him and his values out of society funny ... bush has been ramming religious fanatical fucks into the whitehouse since he took office. things are worse imo. the answer to the worlds problems is not further intolerence. hence religion has no place in government. separation of church and state is a beautiful thing. why do i think americans dont care anymore were tired. tired of fighting/policing the world tired of the same ole shit from greedy politicians that have questionable motives tired of religious intolerance i have the truth ... you dont so youre going to hell or wherever. we just want to work pay our dues and pursue happiness. that is our *right* afterall as indicated by our very own declaration of independence ... life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. history lesson religion causes war and intolerance rather than preventing it. sorry bud i enjoy your posts ... but not everyone agrees with your vision of why the world particularly the u.s. is in the shitter. so whos fault is it our own. for electing the wrong people to do an important job. our own. for not demanding that the people in those elected positions be held responsible for their actions. our own. for being 50% of us too lazy to go vote. craig c. .

Replies:

From : miles

budd cochran wrote in the denominations ive attended that was confidential information. you better get a court order and even then you shouldnt get it. have you ever made change in church .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote would any of you mentioned the info i gave as having happened about the same time youd rather have your teeth pulled without anesthetic. so what about it what does it mean to you i think thats pretty clear what it all means to you. is it meaningful maybe but i dont think so. .

From : forester yahoo com

budd cochran wrote al queda sheltered and trained by saddam... says who rush fox talk about ignorance being bliss. .

From : tbone

tbone wrote fox lol!!!!! oh ya to you fox is biased and everyone else is balanced. lol i would think that it is far more likely that the majority is far more balanced than the one. the fact that they have to tell us that they are fair and balanced tells it all. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

tbone wrote i would think that it is far more likely that the majority is far more balanced than the one. then you would be biased and wrong. cbs is far more biased than fox could ever be. .

From : manny davis

christopher thompson kf4drr-nospam@alltel.net wrote yea but liberal is a dirty word. and conservative is on its way to becoming just as dirty the main reason being that with each passing election it gets harder to tell the difference between the two. .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

on fri 12 may 2006 153243 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote snip those christian child molestors are no greater a percentage of all christianity than for any other belief including atheists for example. you are missing the point i dont think people are upset over the molestation itself maybe not even the fact supposed men of god priests were doing the molestation. what gets most people in an uproar over this is the fact the catholic church knew about this and has known for many many years. while not quite openly condoning this activity by either ignoring it sweeping it under the carpet or transferring offenders to other posts/positions within the church they are condoning it in practice. i dont know the full details and you only know what the media has reported to you which is probably re-written for maximum sensationalism. truth is a minor point to most of the media. gee what made them finally come out against this victims started filing law suits against the church and started winning. now that the sh*t is about to hit the churchs financial fan they suddenly become concerned over it. just like any other corporation hit em in the pocketbook and you get action... and your evidence is what reports preists started going to prison convicted of breaking the law of the land civilian law that is apparently the catholic church has no internal policy/law against grown men in a position of power and ultimate trust f*cking little boys in the butt and took no action until it started costing money and lots of it. they do its called the bible. believe what you want personally i feel the christian religion is a farce. it began as an institutional way of controlling people and still is nothing more. oh yeah you can quote all the scriptures you want. the bible is a nice novel full of contridictions and conveniently open to translation and interpretation which can be twisted to whatever suits the purpose at the moment. www.carm.org death and resurrection it happens at thousands of hospital every day. oh but science can now explain these resurrections we know how to bring humans back from the dead. after three legal days dead ive worked in hospitals and my wife is night e.r. clerk at the local one now it dont happpen after three days. three minutes yes three days no. the next post-three day resurrection will be of one that has died from a head wound the anti-christ. death and resurrection sounds like a common coma to me. there are many scientific explaination of how a person can appear to be lifeless yet still very much alive. how would he have survived a spear into the heart thru a lung and blood then water plasma flowed out let alone suffocating due to the strain on his chest from hanging by outstretched arms crucfixion kills by suffocation or a flogging that ripped into skin so much that he was unrecognizable by his stripes we are healed he was actually killed three times for your sins. of course the christian answer to these modern day resurrections its gods will he wasnt ready for you to serve a higher purpose. yeah right... how many fundamental christians have you heard say that ive heard very few. most fundamental believers give credit to modern medcal science without denying the possibility of divine intervention. by implication youve called the bible a myth but the proofs youve listed are known myths from the secular world. the next time you see your doctor ask him if a man could survive those things jesus went thru singly and combined. *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

i tried pot in the seventies and unlike clinton i inhaled . . . .i got more buzz out of a soda-pop. btw becoming christian has mellowed me. -- budd cochran on fri 12 may 2006 112021 -0400 roy roy@home.net wrote no roy it means your mind is closed. herein lies your problem imo also where you lose credibility. you above post is a blanket statement. because i have a different opinion than you that means my mind is closed not at all i disagree with your position. pal at your next check up you might want to have your doc read this thread im sure he will be perscribeing some new meds. i dont mean this in a bad way but you are really stepping out a bit here. i know ya dont want to here it it but.... ya have a real pattern going on. roy maybe we can get him to smoke a little pot after all god put it here for a reason. hmmm... that might mellow him a bit. roy *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : roy

i tried pot in the seventies and unlike clinton i inhaled . . . .i got more buzz out of a soda-pop. you were probably smoking home grown. gotta get ya the good stuff. btw becoming christian has mellowed me. no it has turned you into a friggin nut case imo.g but if it works for ya....... roy .

From : Annonymous

on sat 13 may 2006 055955 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote i tried pot in the seventies and unlike clinton i inhaled . . . .i got more buzz out of a soda-pop. btw becoming christian has mellowed me. oh.......never mind. .

From : Annonymous

on sat 13 may 2006 094236 -0400 roy roy@home.net wrote i tried pot in the seventies and unlike clinton i inhaled . . . .i got more buzz out of a soda-pop. you were probably smoking home grown. gotta get ya the good stuff. btw becoming christian has mellowed me. no it has turned you into a friggin nut case imo.g but if it works for ya....... roy hmmm. there is some truth to that. maybe at this point this is what it takes for budd to be able to exist taking into account the state of his mind and all that. interesting. .

From : tbone

tbone wrote lol more complete bs. all they are doing is reporting the not hiding or spinning it like fox and the amount of time spent on bush is low to non-existant anymore. iows if what cbs says is per your biased views then they arent biased at all. which is the exact description of you and fox lol! you seem to believe fox is biased but cbs is balanced. rofl. no i said that all is biased to some degree but fox is way over the top and even most of my conservative friends admit to that. unbelievable how you liberals see bias only where you want. cbs isnt biased rofl...riiiiigggggghhhhhhttttt. once again miles you are describing youself. if by liberal biased you mean open minded you would be correct. open minded lol. ya dan rather wasnt biased right just telling the unbiased right that was one person and iirc he was fed bad information and stepped down from his position. no matter if the story is proven wrong its all open minded and balanced right too funny. the thing is that is wasnt actually proven wrong. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : Annonymous

on sat 13 may 2006 162137 gmt tbone tbonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote tbone wrote lol more complete bs. all they are doing is reporting the not hiding or spinning it like fox and the amount of time spent on bush is low to non-existant anymore. iows if what cbs says is per your biased views then they arent biased at all. which is the exact description of you and fox lol! you seem to believe fox is biased but cbs is balanced. rofl. hey guys isnt arguing which station paper or whatever is more biased kind of like arguing which mother to be is more pregnant no i said that all is biased to some degree but fox is way over the top and even most of my conservative friends admit to that. unbelievable how you liberals see bias only where you want. cbs isnt biased rofl...riiiiigggggghhhhhhttttt. once again miles you are describing youself. if by liberal biased you mean open minded you would be correct. open minded lol. ya dan rather wasnt biased right just telling the unbiased right that was one person and iirc he was fed bad information and stepped down from his position. no matter if the story is proven wrong its all open minded and balanced right too funny. the thing is that is wasnt actually proven wrong. .

From : Annonymous

on sat 13 may 2006 152543 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote i tried pot in the seventies and unlike clinton i inhaled . . . .i got more buzz out of a soda-pop. you were probably smoking home grown. gotta get ya the good stuff. btw becoming christian has mellowed me. no it has turned you into a friggin nut case imo.g but if it works for ya....... roy it does work for me when its allowed or when its not allowed. its made me nutty atheists believe in nothing so nothing tells them whats right or wrong. nothing answers when they pray nothing helps when they are in desperate times and nothing will save their butts. so which is nuttier to believe in a man with historical proof of his existence ministry and life or to believe in nothing. . . . . this is the very sad biased type of crap really nothing more than the same kind of propoganda and lies that budd whines about so much that has placed western christian religion in the sorry mess that it is in today. it is in reality unfair to christians but it just goes on and on. rarely will you see a more biased and sad post on any ng. cya budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

i tried pot in the seventies and unlike clinton i inhaled . . . .i got more buzz out of a soda-pop. you were probably smoking home grown. gotta get ya the good stuff. btw becoming christian has mellowed me. no it has turned you into a friggin nut case imo.g but if it works for ya....... roy it does work for me when its allowed or when its not allowed. its made me nutty atheists believe in nothing so nothing tells them whats right or wrong. nothing answers when they pray nothing helps when they are in desperate times and nothing will save their butts. so which is nuttier to believe in a man with historical proof of his existence ministry and life or to believe in nothing. . . . . cya budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : roy

i am not called to convert anyone that is the lords job. i am called to correct lies and errors about christian beliefs you are called like did you answer the phone and hear a voice say budd every time you get a chance mention the fundamental christian teachings nah i doubt it. this is your new thing to argue about. every person who dosent subscribe is a bigot and closeminded. you say you dont preach. good!!!! because it seems nobody wants to hear it. now go back to just being budd. believe whatever the hell you want and be happy. oh chargers still suck!!! vbg roy -- guy.com 30gb $9.95 carry forward and on demand bandwidth .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

i am not called to convert anyone that is the lords job. i am called to correct lies and errors about christian beliefs you are called like did you answer the phone and hear a voice say budd every time you get a chance mention the fundamental christian teachings nah i doubt it. this is your new thing to argue about. every person who dosent subscribe is a bigot and closeminded. one question roy a what if question. what if as youve noted we disagree on a topic because of my beliefs not just because its also my opinion but because my beliefs dont agree / permit / tolerate the topic and i respond with a statement to that effect . .. .am i going to get ridiculed just because i dont agree for the reason my beliefs dont allow me to youve stated many times that you disagree with me and given mostly atheistic reasons. atheism is a religion of non-belief but still a religion. i cant disagree with anyone because of my religion but you can because of yours. thats bigotry. since you do not understand christianity nor desire to apparently any attempt to explain a christian calling would be a waste of time. you say you dont preach. good!!!! because it seems nobody wants to hear it. now go back to just being budd. believe whatever the hell you want and be happy. gee roy every time i do that one of these christian bashings begin . . . .. .so in reality you do not want me to be myself you want me to fit in some non-christian politically correct mold . . . .sorry roy but the answer is no cotton-picking way!!!! this is who i am so killfile me or whatever but be assured i will be who i am and i have no trouble killfiling those that just want to fight. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : roy

on sat 13 may 2006 152543 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote i tried pot in the seventies and unlike clinton i inhaled . . . .i got more buzz out of a soda-pop. you were probably smoking home grown. gotta get ya the good stuff. btw becoming christian has mellowed me. no it has turned you into a friggin nut case imo.g but if it works for ya....... roy it does work for me when its allowed or when its not allowed. its made me nutty atheists believe in nothing so nothing tells them whats right or wrong. nothing answers when they pray nothing helps when they are in desperate times and nothing will save their butts. so which is nuttier to believe in a man with historical proof of his existence ministry and life or to believe in nothing. . . . . this is the very sad biased type of crap really nothing more than the same kind of propoganda and lies that budd whines about so much that has placed western christian religion in the sorry mess that it is in today. it is in reality unfair to christians but it just goes on and on. rarely will you see a more biased and sad post on any ng. he may not have killfiled me yet soooo budd!! read the above! roy .

From : beekeep

on 13 may 2006 223108 -0700 craig@metronet.com craig@metronet.com wrote nothing tells them whats right or wrong. otoh there is no forgiveness if one does commit a crime. one cant just run to confession and have it washed away. nothing answers when they pray like a prayer has ever brought back the dead. nothing helps when they are in desperate times freinds help. family help. a loving wife helps. and hopefuully when im old my children will help. and nothing will save their butts. youre right as certain as one will pay taxes one will die in the end. some can accept it some cant. so ... basically you live in fear of what you cannot see nor explain. its more like living in a make believe land so you arent afraid of dying. cya coward you are. craig c. beekeep .

From : roy

i am not called to convert anyone that is the lords job. i am called to correct lies and errors about christian beliefs you are called like did you answer the phone and hear a voice say budd every time you get a chance mention the fundamental christian teachings nah i doubt it. this is your new thing to argue about. every person who dosent subscribe is a bigot and closeminded. one question roy a what if question. what if as youve noted we disagree on a topic because of my beliefs not just because its also my opinion but because my beliefs dont agree / permit / tolerate the topic and i respond with a statement to that effect . i would think that if your beliefs dont permit or tolerate the topic you would ignore it. a gas boycott topic had nothing to do with your beliefs. . .am i going to get ridiculed just because i dont agree for the reason my beliefs dont allow me to youve stated many times that you disagree with me and given mostly atheistic reasons. please a couple of example of the above. atheism is a religion of non-belief but still a religion. i cant disagree with anyone because of my religion but you can because of yours. my relgion has nothing to do with a boycott. nor do i preach my relgion at every oppertunity. thats bigotry. since you do not understand christianity nor desire to apparently any attempt to explain a christian calling would be a waste of time. why do you maintain that people do not understand christianty i think most do just not your interpetation of it. you say you dont preach. good!!!! because it seems nobody wants to hear it. now go back to just being budd. believe whatever the hell you want and be happy. gee roy every time i do that one of these christian bashings begin . . . bullshit! . .so in reality you do not want me to be myself you want me to fit in some non-christian politically correct mold . . . .sorry roy but the answer is no cotton-picking way!!!! no believe what you want. but why do you feel the need to expound on your beliefs this is who i am so killfile me or whatever but be assured i will be who i am and i have no trouble killfiling those that just want to fight. budd killfile whoever you want. just because a person disagrees with you does not mean it is a fight. hell ya probably ought to killfile youself if that is the case. roy .

From : tbone

budd killfile whoever you want. just because a person disagrees with you does not mean it is a fight. hell ya probably ought to killfile youself if that is the case. hell roy he would never killfile himself. then he would never see the only posts he fully agrees with - -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : Annonymous

nothing tells them whats right or wrong. nothing answers when they pray nothing helps when they are in desperate times and nothing will save their butts. so ... basically you live in fear of what you cannot see nor explain. cya coward you are. craig c. .

From : roy

budd killfile whoever you want. just because a person disagrees with you does not mean it is a fight. hell ya probably ought to killfile youself if that is the case. hell roy he would never killfile himself. then he would never see the only posts he fully agrees with - which might be a good thing. this has been pointless for a bit it makes no sense to continue it further imo. i just gotta learn to ignore better or use the k file. roy if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving -- guy.com 30gb $9.95 carry forward and on demand bandwidth .

From : beekeep

on sat 13 may 2006 212622 -0400 roy roy@home.net wrote budd killfile whoever you want. just because a person disagrees with you does not mean it is a fight. hell ya probably ought to killfile youself if that is the case. roy can ya do that beekeep .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

i am not called to convert anyone that is the lords job. i am called to correct lies and errors about christian beliefs you are called like did you answer the phone and hear a voice say budd every time you get a chance mention the fundamental christian teachings nah i doubt it. this is your new thing to argue about. every person who dosent subscribe is a bigot and closeminded. one question roy a what if question. what if as youve noted we disagree on a topic because of my beliefs not just because its also my opinion but because my beliefs dont agree / permit / tolerate the topic and i respond with a statement to that effect . i would think that if your beliefs dont permit or tolerate the topic you would ignore it. thats the point my beliefs dont permit me to let lies misconceptions about christianity to go unanswered. a gas boycott topic had nothing to do with your beliefs. agreed and my comment on the coincidence that god was declared dead/kicked out of schools was just that a comment on a historically recorded event that parralled the other comment. both ahppened about the same time. i would have let it go but so many of you have to jump on any christian looking statement i make. . .am i going to get ridiculed just because i dont agree for the reason my beliefs dont allow me to youve stated many times that you disagree with me and given mostly atheistic reasons. please a couple of example of the above. please give examples where i have not been ridiculed called names verbally abused accused of preaching or discriminated against for my beliefs or for correcting an error. atheism is a religion of non-belief but still a religion. i cant disagree with anyone because of my religion but you can because of yours. my relgion has nothing to do with a boycott. nor do i preach my relgion at every oppertunity. anytime my beliefs or christianity is attacked it is a sermon for atheism. now since youre too embarrassed or whatever about what you believe to share it and judging from your comments youre an atheist. thats bigotry. since you do not understand christianity nor desire to apparently any attempt to explain a christian calling would be a waste of time. why do you maintain that people do not understand christianty i think most do just not your interpetation of it. most of the ones like yourself that keep feeling the need to shout down antything i mention of a religious nature understand a secular misinformation about christianity. you say you dont preach. good!!!! because it seems nobody wants to hear it. now go back to just being budd. believe whatever the hell you want and be happy. gee roy every time i do that one of these christian bashings begin . . . bullshit! what youre doing in this response in this thread is christian bashing. anytime you say that christian beliefs are wrong because it sets a higher or different standard than a secular value youre bashing christianity. . .so in reality you do not want me to be myself you want me to fit in some non-christian politically correct mold . . . .sorry roy but the answer is no cotton-picking way!!!! no believe what you want. but why do you feel the need to expound on your beliefs because that is what i believe im supposed to do as a christian. simple as that. and thats what you guys give me a hard time over my beliefs and my following those beliefs. and that is why you are in the wrong. i keep hearing about the need for tolerance but theres none for me. now as to the preaching accusation; when have i posted a sermon and when have i quoted from scripture or tried to explain an error in a misconception / misinformation about christianity in a conversation / discussion but i can preach also. this is who i am so killfile me or whatever but be assured i will be who i am and i have no trouble killfiling those that just want to fight. budd killfile whoever you want. just because a person disagrees with you does not mean it is a fight. hell ya probably ought to killfile youself if that is the case. this shows how little you really understand. its not a fight. never has been. oh yes a few years ago i let a few discussion degrade into arguments turn into fights thanks to a couple anti-social misfits but now all i do is point out errors in secular beliefs about what is in the bible. so. there will be no cussing no name calling. there will be christian links scriptures and a lack of political correctness about those errors. its what i believe i am to do as a christian. and its what you and others will continue to give me a hard time about. thank you for permission to killfile anyone i need to but so far its only those that are so vehemently anti-christian. roy its similar to the old brag about who was first to make one horsepower per cubic inch in america. chevy fans will swear up and down it was the 283 chevy

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

greg i am offended that you quoted this person. i killfiled him because of his hatred towards my beliefs. how many times has it been said that a post should be ignored if you find it offensive or not worth reading yet you have tried to force me to read it. he may post if he wants i choose to not read his drivel. shame on you. please dont quote him again. -- budd cochran on 13 may 2006 223108 -0700 craig@metronet.com craig@metronet.com wrote nothing tells them whats right or wrong. otoh there is no forgiveness if one does commit a crime. one cant just run to confession and have it washed away. nothing answers when they pray like a prayer has ever brought back the dead. nothing helps when they are in desperate times freinds help. family help. a loving wife helps. and hopefuully when im old my children will help. and nothing will save their butts. youre right as certain as one will pay taxes one will die in the end. some can accept it some cant. so ... basically you live in fear of what you cannot see nor explain. its more like living in a make believe land so you arent afraid of dying. cya coward you are. craig c. beekeep *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : Annonymous

on sun 14 may 2006 072528 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote greg i am offended that you quoted this person. i killfiled him because of his hatred towards my beliefs. how many times has it been said that a post should be ignored if you find it offensive or not worth reading yet you have tried to force me to read it. he may post if he wants i choose to not read his drivel. shame on you. please dont quote him again. yeah greg. consider yourself warned! now this is not censorship nor is it using his friendship with you to tell you who to talk with and who not to talk with because budd would never do that. instead it is...................well....................well......well it must just be something else. .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

because you quoted it yes i read it and it is itself a pack of lies. the truth of the matter www.carm.org i give links so it cannot be claimed it is just my interpretation. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams on sat 13 may 2006 152543 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote i tried pot in the seventies and unlike clinton i inhaled . . . .i got more buzz out of a soda-pop. you were probably smoking home grown. gotta get ya the good stuff. btw becoming christian has mellowed me. no it has turned you into a friggin nut case imo.g but if it works for ya....... roy it does work for me when its allowed or when its not allowed. its made me nutty atheists believe in nothing so nothing tells them whats right or wrong. nothing answers when they pray nothing helps when they are in desperate times and nothing will save their butts. so which is nuttier to believe in a man with historical proof of his existence ministry and life or to believe in nothing. . . . . this is the very sad biased type of crap really nothing more than the same kind of propoganda and lies that budd whines about so much that has placed western christian religion in the sorry mess that it is in today. it is in reality unfair to christians but it just goes on and on. rarely will you see a more biased and sad post on any ng. he may not have killfiled me yet soooo budd!! read the above! roy *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : roy

i am not called to convert anyone that is the lords job. i am called to correct lies and errors about christian beliefs you are called like did you answer the phone and hear a voice say budd every time you get a chance mention the fundamental christian teachings nah i doubt it. this is your new thing to argue about. every person who dosent subscribe is a bigot and closeminded. one question roy a what if question. what if as youve noted we disagree on a topic because of my beliefs not just because its also my opinion but because my beliefs dont agree / permit / tolerate the topic and i respond with a statement to that effect . i would think that if your beliefs dont permit or tolerate the topic you would ignore it. thats the point my beliefs dont permit me to let lies misconceptions about christianity to go unanswered. if you had not brought it up there would have been nothing for you to let go unanswered. thus my belief that you were baiting a gas boycott topic had nothing to do with your beliefs. agreed and my comment on the coincidence that god was declared dead/kicked out of schools was just that a comment on a historically recorded event that parralled the other comment. both ahppened about the same time. i would have let it go but so many of you have to jump on any christian looking statement i make. . .am i going to get ridiculed just because i dont agree for the reason my beliefs dont allow me to youve stated many times that you disagree with me and given mostly atheistic reasons. please a couple of example of the above. please give examples where i have not been ridiculed called names verbally abused accused of preaching or discriminated against for my beliefs or for correcting an error. no no you made the accusation that i disagreed with you and given mostly atheistic reasons now post the examples!! atheism is a religion of non-belief but still a religion. i cant disagree with anyone because of my religion but you can because of yours. my relgion has nothing to do with a boycott. nor do i preach my relgion at every oppertunity. anytime my beliefs or christianity is attacked it is a sermon for atheism. now since youre too embarrassed or whatever about what you believe to share it and judging from your comments youre an atheist. no budd im not a atheist. thats bigotry. since you do not understand christianity nor desire to apparently any attempt to explain a christian calling would be a waste of time. why do you maintain that people do not understand christianty i think most do just not your interpetation of it. most of the ones like yourself that keep feeling the need to shout down antything i mention of a religious nature understand a secular misinformation about christianity. because you say it is misinformation does not make it so. but it does give you a excuse to continue with the rant. you say you dont preach. good!!!! because it seems nobody wants to hear it. now go back to just being budd. believe whatever the hell you want and be happy. gee roy every time i do that one of these christian bashings begin . . . bullshit! what youre doing in this response in this thread is christian bashing. anytime you say that christian beliefs are wrong because it sets a higher or different standard than a secular value youre bashing christianity. no budd because people disagree with you does not make it bashing. although saying so does follow your why am i being picked on mind set budd it is what you have always done it is called a pattern. . .so in reality you do not want me to be myself you want me to fit in some non-christian politically correct mold . . . .sorry roy but the answer is no cotton-picking way!!!! no believe what you want. but why do you feel the need to expound on your beliefs because that is what i believe im supposed to do as a christian. simple as that. and thats what you guys give me a hard time over my beliefs and my following those beliefs. and that is why you are in the wrong. i keep hearing about the need for tolerance but theres none for me. so in every thread like this one you are going to expound your religious beliefs because that is what your supposed to do as a christian i have a answer for that. plonk!! .

From : beekeep

on sun 14 may 2006 072528 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote greg i am offended that you quoted this person. i killfiled him because of his hatred towards my beliefs. how many times has it been said that a post should be ignored if you find it offensive or not worth reading yet you have tried to force me to read it. he may post if he wants i choose to not read his drivel. shame on you. please dont quote him again. -- budd cochran but most of what i quoted was you beekeep on 13 may 2006 223108 -0700 craig@metronet.com craig@metronet.com wrote nothing tells them whats right or wrong. otoh there is no forgiveness if one does commit a crime. one cant just run to confession and have it washed away. nothing answers when they pray like a prayer has ever brought back the dead. nothing helps when they are in desperate times freinds help. family help. a loving wife helps. and hopefuully when im old my children will help. and nothing will save their butts. youre right as certain as one will pay taxes one will die in the end. some can accept it some cant. so ... basically you live in fear of what you cannot see nor explain. its more like living in a make believe land so you arent afraid of dying. cya coward you are. craig c. beekeep *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote and your evidence is what reports geez budd where have you been coast to coast there have been countless church leaders and churches themselves brought to court. here in arizona alone there have been too many to count. the biggest case here however wasnt about molestation. it was about the churches attempt to cover up a bad situation. a priest hit a pedestrian and killed him and drove off. witnesses identified his vehicle and police called him and said they would like to come out to talk to him. he then attempted to get his vehicle damage repaired before the police made it out. the church itself made an attempt to hide the problem by at first refusing to identify who was driving a church owned vehicle that day. just one of several cases here in phoenix every year. the churches continue to try to hide and deny their problems. they do its called the bible. then the church does not abide by the bible. they knowingly hid hidious problems rather than admit them and stop them from occurring in the first place. how would he have survived a spear into the heart thru a lung and blood then water plasma flowed out he was dead before the spear was used. there was a very well written history of that spear although nobody knows the full truth. was that spear really the one that ended up in hitlers hands and is now in a museum well never know. .

From : miles

tbone wrote iows if what cbs says is per your biased views then they arent biased at all. which is the exact description of you and fox lol! ive never said fox isnt biased. you seem to believe fox is biased but cbs is balanced. rofl. no i said that all is biased to some degree but fox is way over the top and even most of my conservative friends admit to that. and cbs isnt way over the top your bias is showing! that was one person and iirc he was fed bad information and stepped down from his position. oh geez. youre making an excuse for him. he was fed bad information huh lol. just one person huh it is the fundemental history of cbs in the very essence of how they have conducted themselves. the bias at cbs is not just one person. unbelievable how you selectively see bias only where it suits your needs. cbs has always been way over the top. the thing is that is wasnt actually proven wrong. uh yes tbone rathers story was proven flat out wrong. the letter was proven a fake. it was proven to have been done on a rather modern printer and not a typewriter consistent with the date it was said to have been written. unbelievable that liberals will still defend rather and cling to his story..at least a bit of it instead of admitting it was flat out wrong and biased reporting. .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

no it wasnt but maybe like roy you should just killfile me. if you believe that of me then you have no more tolerance than he does. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams on sun 14 may 2006 072528 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote greg i am offended that you quoted this person. i killfiled him because of his hatred towards my beliefs. how many times has it been said that a post should be ignored if you find it offensive or not worth reading yet you have tried to force me to read it. he may post if he wants i choose to not read his drivel. shame on you. please dont quote him again. -- budd cochran but most of what i quoted was you beekeep on 13 may 2006 223108 -0700 craig@metronet.com craig@metronet.com wrote nothing tells them whats right or wrong. otoh there is no forgiveness if one does commit a crime. one cant just run to confession and have it washed away. nothing answers when they pray like a prayer has ever brought back the dead. nothing helps when they are in desperate times freinds help. family help. a loving wife helps. and hopefuully when im old my children will help. and nothing will save their butts. youre right as certain as one will pay taxes one will die in the end. some can accept it some cant. so ... basically you live in fear of what you cannot see nor explain. its more like living in a make believe land so you arent afraid of dying. cya coward you are. craig c. beekeep *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote atheists believe in nothing so nothing tells them whats right or wrong. i feel were stronger and dont require a 3rd party to tell us whether somethings right or wrong. you do and it works for you. not everyone needs that. whats worse is that somehow that faith fails many. christians still sin and commit crimes. their excuse they just say they arent perfect and make mistakes. they simply admit their sin crime and everything is all just wonderful. id rather take responsibility for my actions than use such an excuse. so which is nuttier to believe in a man with historical proof of his existence ministry and life or to believe in nothing. . . . . there are many people that have lived in this world with historical proof of their existence. some were good some were not. its nutty to pick any of them. .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote what if as youve noted we disagree on a topic because of my beliefs not just because its also my opinion but because my beliefs dont agree / permit / tolerate the topic and i respond with a statement to that effect . . .am i going to get ridiculed just because i dont agree for the reason my beliefs dont allow me to it works both ways. you have ridiculed mine and others beliefs. .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote because you quoted it yes i read it and it is itself a pack of lies. the truth of the matter www.carm.org i give links so it cannot be claimed it is just my interpretation. it certainly means exactly that. you found a website that agrees with your interpretations. there are countless websites that give any interpretation you desire. of course theyre all wrong and telling lies except the ones that agree with you. you really think that all christians believe in the bible with the exact same views as your own .

From : miles

me wrote you are missing the point i dont think people are upset over the molestation itself maybe not even the fact supposed men of god priests were doing the molestation. what gets most people in an uproar over this is the fact the catholic church knew about this and has known for many many years. while not quite openly condoning this activity by either ignoring it sweeping it under the carpet or transferring offenders to other posts/positions within the church they are condoning it in practice. thats exactly what bothers me. even after the huge public outcry the churches nationwide refuse to take solid action against the problem. instead were told its an internal issue and will be handled as such. same old bury the problem and keep it as secret as possible. .

From : miles

tbone wrote lol like i said if someone doesnt agree with you they are wrong just like you accuse budd of being and there you are correct. nope ive told budd over and over that he isnt wrong. i just disagree with him. now in your case you are almost always wrong just as you are once again! .

From : miles

theguy@whatever.net wrote hey guys isnt arguing which station paper or whatever is more biased kind of like arguing which mother to be is more pregnant lol true. i dont make any claim that one station is more biased than another. tbone does. fox is every bit as biased as cbs and vis-versa. .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

thank you. it shows the depth of your tolerance. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams i am not called to convert anyone that is the lords job. i am called to correct lies and errors about christian beliefs you are called like did you answer the phone and hear a voice say budd every time you get a chance mention the fundamental christian teachings nah i doubt it. this is your new thing to argue about. every person who dosent subscribe is a bigot and closeminded. one question roy a what if question. what if as youve noted we disagree on a topic because of my beliefs not just because its also my opinion but because my beliefs dont agree / permit / tolerate the topic and i respond with a statement to that effect . i would think that if your beliefs dont permit or tolerate the topic you would ignore it. thats the point my beliefs dont permit me to let lies misconceptions about christianity to go unanswered. if you had not brought it up there would have been nothing for you to let go unanswered. thus my belief that you were baiting a gas boycott topic had nothing to do with your beliefs. agreed and my comment on the coincidence that god was declared dead/kicked out of schools was just that a comment on a historically recorded event that parralled the other comment. both ahppened about the same time. i would have let it go but so many of you have to jump on any christian looking statement i make. . .am i going to get ridiculed just because i dont agree for the reason my beliefs dont allow me to youve stated many times that you disagree with me and given mostly atheistic reasons. please a couple of example of the above. please give examples where i have not been ridiculed called names verbally abused accused of preaching or discriminated against for my beliefs or for correcting an error. no no you made the accusation that i disagreed with you and given mostly atheistic reasons now post the examples!! atheism is a religion of non-belief but still a religion. i cant disagree with anyone because of my religion but you can because of yours. my relgion has nothing to do with a boycott. nor do i preach my relgion at every oppertunity. anytime my beliefs or christianity is attacked it is a sermon for atheism. now since youre too embarrassed or whatever about what you believe to share it and judging from your comments youre an atheist. no budd im not a atheist. thats bigotry. since you do not understand christianity nor desire to apparently any attempt to explain a christian calling would be a waste of time. why do you maintain that people do not understand christianty i think most do just not your interpetation of it. most of the ones like yourself that keep feeling the need to shout down antything i mention of a religious nature understand a secular misinformation about christianity. because you say it is misinformation does not make it so. but it does give you a excuse to continue with the rant. you say you dont preach. good!!!! because it seems nobody wants to hear it. now go back to just being budd. believe whatever the hell you want and be happy. gee roy every time i do that one of these christian bashings begin . . . bullshit! what youre doing in this response in this thread is christian bashing. anytime you say that christian beliefs are wrong because it sets a higher or different standard than a secular value youre bashing christianity. no budd because people disagree with you does not make it bashing. although saying so does follow your why am i being picked on mind set budd it is what you have always done it is called a pattern. . .so in reality you do not want me to be myself you want me to fit in some non-christian politically correct mold . . . .sorry roy but the answer is no cotton-picking way!!!! no believe what you want. but why do you feel the need to expound on your beliefs because that is what i believe im supposed to do as a christian. simple as that. and thats what you guys give me a hard time over my beliefs and my following those beliefs. and that is why you are in the wrong. i keep hearing about the need for tolerance but theres none for me. so in every thread like this one you are going to expound your religious beliefs because that is what your supposed to do as a christian i have a answer for that. plonk!! *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : Annonymous

on 14 may 2006 214540 -0700 craig@metronet.com craig@metronet.com wrote thank you. it shows the depth of your tolerance. you gripe about tolerance/intolerance you deserve what you get moron. craig c. in all honesty im just gonna back out of this thread. give budd a chance to start over if he wants to and drop this thing for now. i hate to see friendships disolve over a ng thread although i understand that the feelings and concerns go beyond a thread. my suggestion is that we give budd an opportunity to relax and take a deep breath. .

From : Annonymous

thank you. it shows the depth of your tolerance. you gripe about tolerance/intolerance you deserve what you get moron. craig c. .

From : roy

on 14 may 2006 214540 -0700 craig@metronet.com craig@metronet.com wrote thank you. it shows the depth of your tolerance. you gripe about tolerance/intolerance you deserve what you get moron. craig c. in all honesty im just gonna back out of this thread. give budd a chance to start over if he wants to and drop this thing for now. i hate to see friendships disolve over a ng thread although i understand that the feelings and concerns go beyond a thread. my suggestion is that we give budd an opportunity to relax and take a deep breath. honestly that isnt going to happen. you have been around a long time and have read the same bs from budd that i have. it isnt going to change. im just tired of reading the same bs from him it is always the same sick friggin story. christ im embarrassed for him. anyway a kf makes it easier to ignore. first time ive felt the need to set one up. gotta be getting old.g roy .

From : tbone

tbone wrote iows if what cbs says is per your biased views then they arent biased at all. which is the exact description of you and fox lol! ive never said fox isnt biased. yea many times you did just that then you sorta spun it to they were less baised than the rest. you seem to believe fox is biased but cbs is balanced. rofl. no i said that all is biased to some degree but fox is way over the top and even most of my conservative friends admit to that. and cbs isnt way over the top your bias is showing! why because they think the president is an idiot. with his current approval rating i would say most of the country thinks that as well. that was one person and iirc he was fed bad information and stepped down from his position. oh geez. youre making an excuse for him. he was fed bad information huh lol. that is correct and no matter how you spin it facts are facts. now perhaps you could say that he jumped the gun and acted on information before it was properly confirmed but i can think of someone else who did the same thing and dan didnt get thousands killed for it. just one person huh it is the fundemental history of cbs in the very essence of how they have conducted themselves. the bias at cbs is not just one person. unbelievable how you selectively see bias only where it suits your needs. cbs has always been way over the top. where are your facts. how exactly are they biased i am not saying that they are not i want to see what you are basing your accusations on. the thing is that is wasnt actually proven wrong. uh yes tbone rathers story was proven flat out wrong. the letter was proven a fake. it was proven to have been done on a rather modern printer and not a typewriter consistent with the date it was said to have been written. big deal. bush has yet to show where he actually was during the time he was supposed to be serving the military. unbelievable that liberals will still defend rather and cling to his story..at least a bit of it instead of admitting it was flat out wrong and biased reporting. i am not defending him. he was wrong for jumping the gun and got what he deserved. too bad it will never happen for the other one. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

tbone wrote ive never said fox isnt biased. yea many times you did just that then you sorta spun it to they were less baised than the rest. i have never once said they arent biased. youre so bent up on fox because thats part of the liberal bandwagon youve jumped on. however fox is no more biased than cbs. why because they think the president is an idiot. with his current approval rating i would say most of the country thinks that as well. lol iows since cbs gives reporting that agrees with your beliefs it isnt biased. you pretty much just proved it is very biased. what cbs thinks is irrelevant. just report the . cbs goes way over the top and instead of reporting the they tell you what to think about it and you love it. ya not biased!! rofl. that is correct and no matter how you spin it facts are facts. so dan rather is just a poor innocent bystander caught up in some misinformation that was fed to him huh he is the guy that runs the show he is the guy at the top. he makes the decisions. he fed up badly because of his and cbss huge over the top bias in reporting. now perhaps you could say that he jumped the gun and acted on information before it was properly confirmed but i can think of someone else who did the same thing and dan didnt get thousands killed for it. lol but you still make an excuse and water it down such that dan rather was a victim and isnt biased. he didnt care if it was researched or not. thats why he didnt bother doing his homework. cbs doesnt care about truth. they run stories to make people like yourself tune in and eat it all up. where are your facts. how exactly are they biased i am not saying that they are not i want to see what you are basing your accusations on. how exactly is fox biased they have liberal commentators that you dismissed as bogus. their #1 top rated commentator is not a conservative. who was cbss top commentator who is their current top commentator are they conservative they have zero conservative commentators. they are all liberal. but thats not bias according to you. uh yes tbone rathers story was proven flat out wrong. the letter was proven a fake. it was proven to have been done on a rather modern printer and not a typewriter consistent with the date it was said to have been written. big deal. bush has yet to show where he actually was during the time he was supposed to be serving the military. typical liberal defense. you were flat out wrong about rathers story having any truth to it at all. bush has said where he was and medical records released confirm it. you may not like where he was but it isnt a secret. i am not defending him. he was wrong for jumping the gun and got what he deserved. too bad it will never happen for the other one. bull. you made an excuse for him. fed bad information so poor rather was a victim. he didnt jump the gun. he made a bogus story he knew had no credibility. it was flat out biased and false reporting for one purpose. ratings from liberals who eat it up and continue to defend cbs and claim they have little bias. .

From : east2388 comcast net

budd cochran wrote if that is what you believe then its always going to be a collection of useless words. but remember its what you believe about it not me. to me the whole bible is a completed work and no part stands alone not one verse. the whole book means much to me. thats understandable budd. i envy you even though i disagree. ive been on a on again off again mission for the truth for over 30 yrs. the answers ive found do not provide comfort. .

From : forester yahoo com

miles wrote phillip@yahoo.com wrote what i cant understand is why a spiritual being would create a physical world to put animals we are animals into with all of their animalistic insticts called sins and to put a spiritual being called a soul in these animals and then threaten them with eternal damnation called hell--what a nice god if they dont worship him but offer them an eternal life with him if they do acknowledge him. the concept of the devil and hell make little sense to me. why would god send anyones soul to the devil ok punishment for their sins right but that would mean that god has made some sort of a deal with the devil. it would mean god empowers the devil every time he feeds the devil souls. fine he lets the devil exist but why enpower him sounds like a classic good vs. evil except the good allows the evil to exist and gives evil what he wants. exactly. .

From : miles

tbone wrote oh please talk about bias. all you hear from fox is what the right is doing right and the left is doing wrong. lol on cbs all you hear about it what the right is doing wrong and how the left has all the answers. course youll say that isnt bias thats just truthful reporting. too funny. lol only in your biased little mind but with your extreme right bias i can see why you would think so. your extreme left bias doesnt blind you to cbss over the top liberal bias really does he own cbs if not then he rums nothing. bull. he owned the show. it was all his. cbs bought the rights to air the show. you need to understand how the relationships of many of these types of shows work. well truth be told he was a victim as well as being biased. he was not a victim of anything other than his own bias. their #1 top rated commentator is not a conservative. yea right. who is foxs #1 rated commentator do you know find out tbone. he is certainly not a conservative. not even close to one. .

From : miles

tbone wrote i never said that you did. i guess reading comprehension is not one of your things. you accused budd of saying anyone who doesnt agree with him is wrong due to his bias much like you do. huh i have never told budd he is wrong. he has told me many times i am wrong for just about everything ive ever disagreed with him about. and like i said before it is just your hard right wing bias that makes you think that. nope. youre always wrong! .

From : tbone

tbone wrote ive never said fox isnt biased. yea many times you did just that then you sorta spun it to they were less baised than the rest. i have never once said they arent biased. youre so bent up on fox because thats part of the liberal bandwagon youve jumped on. however fox is no more biased than cbs. oh please talk about bias. all you hear from fox is what the right is doing right and the left is doing wrong. why because they think the president is an idiot. with his current approval rating i would say most of the country thinks that as well. lol iows since cbs gives reporting that agrees with your beliefs it isnt biased. i didnt say that it wasnt biased. everything is going to be biased to some degree but there are levels and fox is way over the top. you pretty much just proved it is very biased. lol only in your biased little mind but with your extreme right bias i can see why you would think so. what cbs thinks is irrelevant. just report the . cbs goes way over the top and instead of reporting the they tell you what to think about it and you love it. ya not biased!! rofl. i am still waiting for some valid examples not just your one thing about dan who resigned afterward. i didnt see the current idiot resigning after needlessly killing thousands of our young men and women. that is correct and no matter how you spin it facts are facts. so dan rather is just a poor innocent bystander caught up in some misinformation that was fed to him huh no like i said he jumped the gun and paid for it pretty much like the rep party will be doing soon. he is the guy that runs the show he is the guy at the top. really does he own cbs if not then he rums nothing. he makes the decisions. he fed up badly because of his and cbss huge over the top bias in reporting. more complete bs. while he did screw up it had little to do with bias from cbs. now perhaps you could say that he jumped the gun and acted on information before it was properly confirmed but i can think of someone else who did the same thing and dan didnt get thousands killed for it. lol but you still make an excuse and water it down such that dan rather was a victim and isnt biased. well truth be told he was a victim as well as being biased. he didnt care if it was researched or not. thats why he didnt bother doing his homework. cbs doesnt care about truth. and you know this how the answer is that you dont and it is just your bias talking now. where are your facts. how exactly are they biased i am not saying that they are not i want to see what you are basing your accusations on. how exactly is fox biased the easier question is how are they not. they have liberal commentators that you dismissed as bogus. and you dont their #1 top rated commentator is not a conservative. yea right. who was cbss top commentator who is their current top commentator are they conservative they have zero conservative commentators. they are all liberal. but thats not bias according to you. more of your bias where anyone who does not go along with your hard right position is a worthless liberal. uh yes tbone rathers story was proven flat out wrong. the letter was proven a fake. it was proven to have been done on a rather modern printer and not a typewriter consistent with the date it was said to have been written. big deal. bush has yet to show where he actually was during the time he was supposed to be serving the military. typical liberal defense. you were flat out wrong about rathers story having any truth to it at all. and you can prove this how bush has said where he was and medical records released confirm it. you may not like where he was but it isnt a secret. funny how it took so long to produce them almost like they were created later - i am not defending him. he was wrong for jumping the gun and got what he deserved. too bad it will never happen for the other one. bull. you made an excuse for him. fed bad information so poor rather was a victim. he didnt jump the gun. he made a bogus story he knew had no credibility. where is your proof oh thats right you dont need any when you have your bias to protect you. funny thing is how closely it parallels wjhat our president did to get us into iraq. i guess he was a lying sack of shit as well. it was flat out biased and false reporting for one purpose. ratings from liberals who eat it up and continue to defend cbs and claim they have little bias. as was our presidents to get us into iraq to finish the job that daddy didnt and to make a name for himself in history other than the first president to have a successful terrorist attack launched against him. the only real difference i guess is that we didnt lose thousands for what dan rather did. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut o

From : tbone

tbone wrote lol like i said if someone doesnt agree with you they are wrong just like you accuse budd of being and there you are correct. nope ive told budd over and over that he isnt wrong. i never said that you did. i guess reading comprehension is not one of your things. you accused budd of saying anyone who doesnt agree with him is wrong due to his bias much like you do. i just disagree with him. now in your case you are almost always wrong just as you are once again! and like i said before it is just your hard right wing bias that makes you think that. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : reslight

and people like yourself are never mean spirited. no way nope never. organized religion including christianity has failed mankind. even a christian preacher in the past felt that way when he said religion is a snare and a racket. -charles taze russell although this is a minor point i feel it should be clarified. charles taze russell never stated the matter exactly as above. i have russells works in electronic form. in searching his works the closest i could find to such a statement was in 1904 when he made some comments regarding some statements by rev. r. heber newton d.d. of new york city episcopalian ======= doctor newton proceeds to prove that all religions are shown to be from one source because related in worship. we agree that all world-religions are of one spirit--the spirit of the prince of this world. but the true church whose names are written in heaven is in all but a little flock--not of the world but separate from it. i have chosen you out of the world. ======== ---watch tower may 15 1904. however after charles taze russell died joseph rutherford did make such a statement. http//reslight.net/l-russell.html i do agree that organized religion has failed; so are all the works of

From : Annonymous

however after charles taze russell died joseph rutherford did make such a statement. my apologies for the error in author. however my point remains the same even preachers of christianity have lost faith in its promises due to the corruption of its leaders. interesting website. i imagine that you and i have more in common than you might think. craig c. .

From : miles

phillip@yahoo.com wrote what i cant understand is why a spiritual being would create a physical world to put animals we are animals into with all of their animalistic insticts called sins and to put a spiritual being called a soul in these animals and then threaten them with eternal damnation called hell--what a nice god if they dont worship him but offer them an eternal life with him if they do acknowledge him. the concept of the devil and hell make little sense to me. why would god send anyones soul to the devil ok punishment for their sins right but that would mean that god has made some sort of a deal with the devil. it would mean god empowers the devil every time he feeds the devil souls. fine he lets the devil exist but why enpower him sounds like a classic good vs. evil except the good allows the evil to exist and gives evil what he wants. .

From : Annonymous

on thu 18 may 2006 112534 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote try this link http//www.carm.org/ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ i am not familiar with this site so i took a look. some interesting stuff there. carm is a 501c3 nonprofit organization whose purpose is to equip christians and refute error. it is well documented. come here and learn about false teachings such as mormonism jehovahs witnesses islam the new age etc. as well as provide counter arguments for evolution atheism relativism abortion...and much more. there are other non-christian groups mentioned on carm and many more are in the works. but please examine carm and compare it to scripture. see whether or not it is biblical. see if carm preaches the true doctrine of god salvation regeneration etc. dont just believe everything you read. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ now.....that last sentence may be one to focus on when going to this site. the owner of the site is mathew slick..... while there are a few sites which give detailed counterarguments to slicks articles on carms website 2 3 most complaints about slick are voiced in connection with discussions with him on the moderated forums operated on carm. on those forums slick has been accused of censorship by excluding forum users that he asserts have been in violation of carms rules but who believe he is attempting to diminish opposition to evangelical beliefs through moderation. these users also have issues with slicks general conduct in discussions with non-evangelicals. an especially heated debate over alleged censorship originated in 2001 when slick closed down the universalist board in his forums and banned all discussion of universalism from his other boards citing examples of derogatory statements by the universalists.45 meanwhile some of the excluded users have moved to other discussion boards to voice their views including those regarding slick. in 2004 one user john w. ratcliff created the alternative unmoderated forum aarm to allow atheists and other former users of carm to speak without constraint. some aspects of slicks apologetic materials have been critically discussed by douglas cowan in his sociological survey of the christian countercult movement. slick claims to have left a message offering to discuss the issues with cowan in person and to have not received a response. 6 an intersting article by mr. slick http//www.albatrus.org/english/theology/predestination/predestinationslick.htm or about mr. slick http//www.shields-research.org/critics/carm.htm http//www.mslick.com/believe.htm .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

try this link http//www.carm.org/ -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams budd cochran wrote if that is what you believe then its always going to be a collection of useless words. but remember its what you believe about it not me. to me the whole bible is a completed work and no part stands alone not one verse. the whole book means much to me. thats understandable budd. i envy you even though i disagree. ive been on a on again off again mission for the truth for over 30 yrs. the answers ive found do not provide comfort. *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : forester yahoo com

my point exactly. except there is the case of jesus. he said there was a heaven and hes preparing a place for those that believe on him. josephus recorded the testimonies of eyewitnesses to that resurrection miles. budd this is interesting http//www.harpercollins.com/globalscripts/productcatalog/bookxml.aspisbn=0060738170 its about the book misquoting jesus. what i cant understand is why a spiritual being would create a physical world to put animals we are animals into with all of their animalistic insticts called sins and to put a spiritual being called a soul in these animals and then threaten them with eternal damnation called hell--what a nice god if they dont worship him but offer them an eternal life with him if they do acknowledge him. if you try to view this concept from outside your own humanistic world youll laugh yourself silly. when children get upset with their parents some will say i didnt ask to be born!. i never use to give that much thought but how true for all of us and how rediculous to think a deity is that lonely so as to create billions of spirits to entertain himself with. lunch is over--got to go. .

From : Annonymous

miles wrote the concept of the devil and hell make little sense to me. why would god send anyones soul to the devil ok punishment for their sins right but that would mean that god has made some sort of a deal with the devil. it would mean god empowers the devil every time he feeds the devil souls. fine he lets the devil exist but why enpower him sounds like a classic good vs. evil except the good allows the evil to exist and gives evil what he wants. no all christian religions believe in hell. some believe that hell is merely the grave which is its actual translation not a burning pit of sorrow and dispair. therefore the logic of some religions is that we were created as physical beings because god wanted to create something in his image but with physical formation. why you may ask the same reason that you or i like to build stuff ... just to see if we can. afterall we were supposedly created in his image. now i dont believe any of this shit but i have studied it most of my life and what i find difficult to understand other than the concept of burning hell is why a merciful all powerful loving god would create man with physical needs and wants and then make it a punishable sin to engage in those needs or wants. was it a cosmic joke give us the temptation and then spank us if we fuck up ive heard the arguments about free will and they just dont hold water. if i create a robot i want it to do exactly what i want ... not what it wants so that i can kick it. i cant be too far off in my thinking since i was supposedly created in his image. what makes more sense is that man created god instead of god creating man. man created god to answer questions the he did not understand. and what a powerful creation it has become. governments have used and always will use the concept of god to control the masses. its used as an excuse to kill and sidestep basic moral principles. its hilarious to me that christians believe that they and their god are the keepers of good morals and values. they are the worst at upholding their own standards. what i hate to see is the u.s. involving these assholes in government business. it can only lead to disaster. craig c. .

From : forester yahoo com

craig@metronet.com wrote no all christian religions believe in hell. some believe that hell is merely the grave which is its actual translation not a burning pit of sorrow and dispair. therefore the logic of some religions is that we were created as physical beings because god wanted to create something in his image but with physical formation. why you may ask the same reason that you or i like to build stuff ... just to see if we can. afterall we were supposedly created in his image. now i dont believe any of this shit but i have studied it most of my life and what i find difficult to understand other than the concept of burning hell is why a merciful all powerful loving god would create man with physical needs and wants and then make it a punishable sin to engage in those needs or wants. was it a cosmic joke give us the temptation and then spank us if we fuck up ive heard the arguments about free will and they just dont hold water. if i create a robot i want it to do exactly what i want ... not what it wants so that i can kick it. i cant be too far off in my thinking since i was supposedly created in his image. what makes more sense is that man created god instead of god creating man. man created god to answer questions the he did not understand. and what a powerful creation it has become. governments have used and always will use the concept of god to control the masses. its used as an excuse to kill and sidestep basic moral principles. its hilarious to me that christians believe that they and their god are the keepers of good morals and values. they are the worst at upholding their own standards. what i hate to see is the u.s. involving these assholes in government business. it can only lead to disaster. craig c. john lennon had it right. .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

heres from the sites faq http//www.carm.org/index/faq.htm -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams budd cochran wrote if that is what you believe then its always going to be a collection of useless words. but remember its what you believe about it not me. to me the whole bible is a completed work and no part stands alone not one verse. the whole book means much to me. thats understandable budd. i envy you even though i disagree. ive been on a on again off again mission for the truth for over 30 yrs. the answers ive found do not provide comfort. *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : miles

theguy@whatever.net wrote i dont think you can necessarily blame religion. i dont know of any religion that advocates murder or death to others even to those of other religions. its not that religion advocates murder. but religion has been the source of disagreement and thus the reason for most of this worlds wars over the past several 1000 years. .

From : joe

ebay im looking for a replacement used or new rear bumper for a reasonable price. does anyone have one or suggest where to find one tia .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

im following the prophecies in the scriptures miles. so far they have been 100% accurate. no one else comes close. have they been people have thought that various events have matched the prophecies for centuries. it has led them to believe such things as armageddon would occur in their life time and yet they were wrong. this has been the case for 100s and 100s of years. they were not 100% accurate. they only thought that way just as you do. it fit the mold of the time per their beliefs. only one person ever walked this earth whos life matched the over 300 prophecies of the jewish messiah found in the old testament that person was jesus of nazareth. in one day the day of his crucifiction he fulfilled 33 prophecies alone. saying im predictable is another slam at my beliefs and or me sir. no its not. you are predictable because you follow the very same patterns that people have lived for centuries. then maybe it no so wrong i think im done with this conversation thanks to those comments of yours. it has stopped being a discussion. rofl. youre a hypocrite budd and you dont like it and wont recognize it in yourself. you have accused me of one thing after another. now you cry foul and cut out. or have i treated you the way you treat me so long budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote yes and they usually dont realize it only means the federal government cannot legally establish a church of the united states. yep. cant make a law for or against religion. which means government cant support one religion over another. it does not say a thing about separation of church and state. although in practice i think separation is needed. i dont see a thing wrong with the 10 commandments on a wall at a school etc. but i understand why its gotta be removed. otherwise they have to allow any other religious symbols to be displayed. it could get out of hand. how ya doing miles doing pretty good. .

From : miles

craig@metronet.com wrote separation of church and state is a beautiful thing. some people seem to believe that seperation of church and state is mandated by the constitution. .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

yes and they usually dont realize it only means the federal government cannot legally establish a church of the united states. how ya doing miles -- budd cochran craig@metronet.com wrote separation of church and state is a beautiful thing. some people seem to believe that seperation of church and state is mandated by the constitution. *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

who killed god and /or kicked him and his values out of society funny ... bush has been ramming religious fanatical fucks into the whitehouse since he took office. things are worse imo. you have the right to your opinion. please allow me mine. i disagree with you but you knew that. the answer to the worlds problems is not further intolerence. hence religion has no place in government. separation of church and state is a beautiful thing. i love how religious people are intolerant according to folks like you. yet you are just as intolerant as you accuse the religious of being . . you reject them. why do i think americans dont care anymore were tired. tired of fighting/policing the world tired of the same ole shit from greedy politicians that have questionable motives tired of religious intolerance i have the truth ... you dont so youre going to hell or wherever. we just want to work pay our dues and pursue happiness. that is our *right* afterall as indicated by our very own declaration of independence ... life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. so if we want to be the world leader were to refuse to lead the world history lesson religion causes war and intolerance rather than preventing it. bull. you need to look at the otherside of the coin friend. millions more have been killed by atheists than by all the christian faiths combined. why are you not complaining about the 6 million jews killed by the humanist adolf hitler whos only goal was to force the evolution of man into a perfect species sorry bud i enjoy your posts ... but not everyone agrees with your vision of why the world particularly the u.s. is in the shitter. and i dont expect everyone to. for you to think i do demonstrates your biases. and please the name is spelled budd if you dont mind. thanks. so whos fault is it our own. for electing the wrong people to do an important job. i agree but i disagree with whom you think it should have been. our own. for not demanding that the people in those elected positions be held responsible for their actions. i agree again. clinton for example should have been held responsible for his treasonous acts of draft dodging and defamation of the us. our own. for being 50% of us too lazy to go vote. i agree. i vote. my wife votes. my sons vote. and i encourage everyone to vote even if you vote to prevent my ilk from gaining power it still needs your vote. craig c. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : Annonymous

some people seem to believe that seperation of church and state is mandated by the constitution. they would be wrong. its not in the constitution. but it should be. craig c. .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

budd cochran wrote yes and they usually dont realize it only means the federal government cannot legally establish a church of the united states. yep. cant make a law for or against religion. which means government cant support one religion over another. it does not say a thing about separation of church and state. although in practice i think separation is needed. i dont see a thing wrong with the 10 commandments on a wall at a school etc. but i understand why its gotta be removed. otherwise they have to allow any other religious symbols to be displayed. it could get out of hand. how ya doing miles doing pretty good. i have no objection to that but id rather see all theories and beliefs concerning the universe taught equally. creation along with evolution then let the kids decide when they get older for themselves. besides as long as there are tests in schools there will be prayer in schools. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote i have no objection to that but id rather see all theories and beliefs concerning the universe taught equally. creation along with evolution then let the kids decide when they get older for themselves. difficult to do since there are so many different religions in the world. the government cant choose one to teach. calling it intelligent design is just an attempt at being politically correct but changes nothing. if one wishes to learn about religion then they should choose whichever one suits them and learn on their own. i think its a bad idea to give the role of teaching religion to government. .

From : Annonymous

that is a fact jack. it doesnt in itself make any particular religion wrong nor does it in itself prove any religion wrong. it just makes you realize how biased and how little perspective fundamentalist religious fanatics will be. it is simply put the nature of the game itself. .

From : Annonymous

i love how religious people are intolerant according to folks like you. i have the truth. you dont. so youre going to hell. seems fairly intolerant to me. i hear that from most religions. baptist methodist jehovahs witnesses muslims etc. yet you are just as intolerant as you accuse the religious of being . . you reject them. i dont reject people ... i reject the extreme beliefs. at the end of the day budd we are all on the same planet and if we want reach our full potential we will all have to get along. religion is supposed to unite but it divides because of fanatical extremists. so if we want to be the world leader were to refuse to lead the world no ... i was simply giving my opinion of why people dont care anymore. if youd like i can tell you what steps i think we should take to fix it ... but thats potentially a long ... long post. and frankly it doesnt matter. opinions are like assholes ... everybody has one and they all stink. history lesson religion causes war and intolerance rather than preventing it. bull. youre not agruing with me here budd ... youre arguing with history. and i dont expect everyone to. for you to think i do demonstrates your biases. and please the name is spelled budd if you dont mind. actually i was quite pleased that i stayed as politically neutral as i did. i didnt say anything negative about your beloved president. rather i was commenting on your religious references. i agree but i disagree with whom you think it should have been. you dont know who i think it should have been. you know who i voted for ... thats completely different. i voted for the lesser of two evils ... like i do in every election. i agree again. clinton for example should have been held responsible for his treasonous acts of draft dodging and defamation of the us. youre not going to suck me into a political debate. but i applaud your efforts. - and i encourage everyone to vote even if you vote to prevent my ilk from gaining power it still needs your vote. yep ... i agree. craig c. .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

its on there because the founders of this country believed in a creator. would you rather have in bart simpson we trust i wouldnt. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams on wed 03 may 2006 204406 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote budd cochran wrote yes and they usually dont realize it only means the federal government cannot legally establish a church of the united states. yep. cant make a law for or against religion. which means government cant support one religion over another. it does not say a thing about separation of church and state. although in practice i think separation is needed. i dont see a thing wrong with the 10 commandments on a wall at a school etc. but i understand why its gotta be removed. otherwise they have to allow any other religious symbols to be displayed. it could get out of hand. how ya doing miles doing pretty good. really then why is in god we trust printed or stamped on all of our money there are many americans that dont believe in a creator. why should our government say they should beekeep *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : manny davis

craig@metronet.com craig@metronet.com wrote in some people seem to believe that seperation of church and state is mandated by the constitution. they would be wrong. its not in the constitution. it could be argued that the establishment clause provides such a separation. but it should be. wouldnt do any good. regardless of the language used congressvermin would find a way around it. consider how easily they have circumvented the phrase congress shall make no law. a statement cant get any clearer or anymore unambiguous than that yet congress does indeed make laws abridging the freedom of speech. .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

budd cochran wrote i have no objection to that but id rather see all theories and beliefs concerning the universe taught equally. creation along with evolution then let the kids decide when they get older for themselves. difficult to do since there are so many different religions in the world. the government cant choose one to teach. calling it intelligent design is just an attempt at being politically correct but changes nothing. if one wishes to learn about religion then they should choose whichever one suits them and learn on their own. i think its a bad idea to give the role of teaching religion to government. my point exactly miles. there is insufficient proof of evolution that is too many gaps and jumps that in the end to believe in evolution requires one to believe in the unproven or as the bible puts it faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. hebrews 111 or in other words it becomes a religion. and why are schools teaching a religion iow dont have them teach either of them. science true science is found in observed facts and evidence. you mix hydrochloric acid and sodium bicarbonate and you get carbon dioxide gas. thats observable provable. a few scattere

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

i love how religious people are intolerant according to folks like you. i have the truth. you dont. so youre going to hell. seems fairly intolerant to me. i hear that from most religions. baptist methodist jehovahs witnesses muslims etc. no you only hear it from those that hold jesus as the son of god god incarnate and as messiah. since the bible the king james version is 99.9% accurate i have links!! from its beginnings when moses got the ten commandments do you think theres a possibility it could be right about that yet you are just as intolerant as you accuse the religious of being . . you reject them. i dont reject people ... i reject the extreme beliefs. at the end of the day budd we are all on the same planet and if we want reach our full potential we will all have to get along. religion is supposed to unite but it divides because of fanatical extremists. so here i am trying to get you to understand that because i believe in the god of abraham elohim who is manifested in three persons god the father god the son jesus and the holy spirit of god that i am following 2000 year old teachings and trying to convince you that more people have been killed by bhuddists followers of shinto hinduism nazism communism and just plain atheist that i am not the bad guy. craig if you were my neighbor and you needed help your beliefs arent important the fact you need help is. so if we want to be the world leader were to refuse to lead the world no ... i was simply giving my opinion of why people dont care anymore. if youd like i can tell you what steps i think we should take to fix it ... but thats potentially a long ... long post. and frankly it doesnt matter. opinions are like assholes ... everybody has one and they all stink. and as long as you believe that they will stink and you will look past the truth. history lesson religion causes war and intolerance rather than preventing it. bull. youre not agruing with me here budd ... youre arguing with history. no im saying bull to your switching parameters. christianity is not a religion its a faith and a lifestyle. religion is mans efforts to sooth his soul in hopes of earning a place in a here-after. originally you implied that christianity was the cause of all wars. and i dont expect everyone to. for you to think i do demonstrates your biases. and please the name is spelled budd if you dont mind. actually i was quite pleased that i stayed as politically neutral as i did. i didnt say anything negative about your beloved president. rather i was commenting on your religious references. thank you for that much but i have to ask why is my constitutionally guaranteed beliefs of any importance you opened fire with the implication that my beliefs were the grounds for the murder of billions though killing in the time of war is not murder according to the hebrew language. i agree but i disagree with whom you think it should have been. you dont know who i think it should have been. you know who i voted for ... thats completely different. i voted for the lesser of two evils ... like i do in every election. based on the past conversations i figure its probably a liberal. i agree again. clinton for example should have been held responsible for his treasonous acts of draft dodging and defamation of the us. youre not going to suck me into a political debate. but i applaud your efforts. - not trying for a debate just giving opinion with an example of where my opinion is based to reduce the possibility of confusion / argument. and i encourage everyone to vote even if you vote to prevent my ilk from gaining power it still needs your vote. yep ... i agree. figured you would. vbg craig c. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : beekeep

on thu 4 may 2006 174649 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote greg if you could find a book of history geology law theology science prophecy and philosophy verified by hundreds of experts to be more than 99% accurate would you read it i have. it says there is no life on other planets. budd and why didnt you inform our government of this before they spent all those millions building radio telescopes fwiw 500+ years ago most books by the experts stated that the earth was flat. beekeep .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

found on different strata and untested for dna compatibility cannot be considered evidence of a human ancestor without a huge amount of faith. the piltdown man was developed from a single boars tooth fer crying out loud. the brontosaurus is no more because the wrong head was placed on the skeleton . . a head from more than a hundred yards away . . .just to make the claim of having a complete skeleton. imho and the opinion of many scholars evolution requires more faith than christianity because the fossil evidence we see today fits the creation story perfectly. an example im sitting in my home and if i look at any of the sandstone layers around me there are no riverbeds in the layers not even a small brook bed but according to evolution i should be seeing grooves filled with later convoluted-to-fit deposits ...well the geologists say im looking at 40+ million years of time in those stones . . .wheres the years of runoff and erosion but if you look at the stone layers as having been deposited in 40 days and nights compacted by the weight of water which then ran off in huge flows big enough to carve the grand canyon in hours then it all fits perfectly no gaps. yes i was exposed to the early theories of evolution in school and they didnt make sense then they dont make sense now. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** . 222 317308 445a5be3$0$29296$88260bb3@free.tera.com in your biased opinion. come on its ok to admit you are as biased about your opinion on it as i am about mine. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams some people seem to believe that seperation of church and state is mandated by the constitution. they would be wrong. its not in the constitution. but it should be. craig c. *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : Annonymous

come on its ok to admit you are as biased about your opinion on it as i am about mine. well ... sure. everyone has bias. i try to base my bias on facts. organized religion is evil. i have many examples. i dont want it in my government ... and neither did our founding fathers. craig c. .

From : beekeep

on wed 3 may 2006 181814 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote bull. you need to look at the otherside of the coin friend. millions more have been killed by atheists than by all the christian faiths combined. why are you not complaining about the 6 million jews killed by the humanist adolf hitler whos only goal was to force the evolution of man into a perfect species now budd. first off adolf hitler was a catholic. second more people are killed in the name of god than for any other reason. beekeep .

From : beekeep

on wed 03 may 2006 204406 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote budd cochran wrote yes and they usually dont realize it only means the federal government cannot legally establish a church of the united states. yep. cant make a law for or against religion. which means government cant support one religion over another. it does not say a thing about separation of church and state. although in practice i think separation is needed. i dont see a thing wrong with the 10 commandments on a wall at a school etc. but i understand why its gotta be removed. otherwise they have to allow any other religious symbols to be displayed. it could get out of hand. how ya doing miles doing pretty good. really then why is in god we trust printed or stamped on all of our money there are many americans that dont believe in a creator. why should our government say they should beekeep .

From : beekeep

on thu 4 may 2006 145032 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote budd cochran wrote i have no objection to that but id rather see all theories and beliefs concerning the universe taught equally. creation along with evolution then let the kids decide when they get older for themselves. difficult to do since there are so many different religions in the world. the government cant choose one to teach. calling it intelligent design is just an attempt at being politically correct but changes nothing. if one wishes to learn about religion then they should choose whichever one suits them and learn on their own. i think its a bad idea to give the role of teaching religion to government. my point exactly miles. there is insufficient proof of evolution that is too many gaps and jumps that in the end to believe in evolution requires one to believe in the unproven or as the bible puts it faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. hebrews 111 or in other words it becomes a religion. and why are schools teaching a religion iow dont have them teach either of them. science true science is found in observed facts and evidence. you mix hydrochloric acid and sodium bicarbonate and you get carbon dioxide gas. thats observable provable. a few scattered fragments of fossilized bone over a 5 square mile area lucy found on different strata and untested for dna compatibility cannot be considered evidence of a human ancestor without a huge amount of faith. the piltdown man was developed from a single boars tooth fer crying out loud. the brontosaurus is no more because the wrong head was placed on the skeleton . . a head from more than a hundred yards away . . .just to make the claim of having a complete skeleton. imho and the opinion of many scholars evolution requires more faith than christianity because the fossil evidence we see today fits the creation story perfectly. an example im sitting in my home and if i look at any of the sandstone layers around me there are no riverbeds in the layers not even a small brook bed but according to evolution i should be seeing grooves filled with later convoluted-to-fit deposits ...well the geologists say im looking at 40+ million years of time in those stones . . .wheres the years of runoff and erosion but if you look at the stone layers as having been deposited in 40 days and nights compacted by the weight of water which then ran off in huge flows big enough to carve the grand canyon in hours then it all fits perfectly no gaps. yes i was exposed to the early theories of evolution in school and they didnt make sense then they dont make sense now. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** maybe you should sit on your porch at night and look up. if one in a million of those stars up there has a planet going around it and one in a million of those stars has a planet that orbits in the sweet spot that can support life and one in a million of those stars planets has some form of life and one in a million of those stars planets has inteligent life then there is more intelligent life out there than you can count! beekeep .

From : Annonymous

on thu 04 may 2006 213815 gmt honeybs@radix.net beekeep wrote on wed 03 may 2006 204406 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote budd cochran wrote yes and they usually dont realize it only means the federal government cannot legally establish a church of the united states. yep. cant make a law for or against religion. which means government cant support one religion over another. it does not say a thing about separation of church and state. although in practice i think separation is needed. i dont see a thing wrong with the 10 commandments on a wall at a school etc. but i understand why its gotta be removed. otherwise they have to allow any other religious symbols to be displayed. it could get out of hand. i think that you may be placing your faith a little pun on some very conservative and incorrect information. the establishment clause of the first ammendment is fairly clear when it says that congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; that has been interpreted as creating a seperation between church and state. not too hard a reach considering that thomas jefferson referred to a wall of separation between church and state when referring to this section. james madison the father of the u.s. constitution and the bill of rights in case you missed that part too wrote that strongly guarded . . . is the separation between religion and government in the constitution of the united states. i just think.....call me devil may care.....but i just think that madison may well have known what he was talking about when he said what that clause meant. the seperation is quite clearly in our constitution and all the conservative baptist bull shit that you want to listen to can not change history. how ya doing miles doing pretty good. really then why is in god we trust printed or stamped on all of our money there are many americans that dont believe in a creator. why should our government say they should beekeep .

From : Annonymous

since the bible the king james version is 99.9% accurate i have links!! from its beginnings when moses got the ten commandments do you think theres a possibility it could be right about that personally ... no i dont believe it. mainly because religion and belief of higher beings is mankinds way of explaining that which he doesnt understand imo. of course organized religion is going to continue to teach the belief of hell ... if they dont they will lose membership. fear and guilt are powerful tools. mans governments and religion have used it for centuries. just plain atheist that i am not the bad guy. i dont think youre a bad guy. craig if you were my neighbor and you needed help your beliefs arent important the fact you need help is. i have no doubt that you would help. as would i if you needed assistance. a person doesnt have to be religious to be a good guy. but religion would have you believe that. originally you implied that christianity was the cause of all wars. no i didnt. i talked specifically about religion and religious fanatics. i dont really care what flavor of religion or spirituality that a person subscribes to. thats a personal choice. where it gets rediculous and dangerous is when people give undue power and authority to a religion or a religious leader. power corrupts. thats a fact. and exactly the reason that religion has no place in government. thank you for that much but i have to ask why is my constitutionally guaranteed beliefs of any importance it isnt. its only important to me if your beliefs become law. i dont believe what you believe. under our system of law my beliefs are every bit as valid as yours. hell a devil worshipper has the same rights that we do. the issue is at what point does a government leader overstep his or her bounds well its when their beliefs and consequently their actions as a representative of the this country infinge on my constitutional rights. stem cell research is a classic example. it could save millions of people. why arent we pursuing it easy ... the religious right have an issue with it and bush backs them. how dare they prevent me and possibly members of my future family from living a better/longer life because of their crazy ethical argument. we dont do stem cell research because the best source of stem cells is from fetal tissue of an already doomed embryo. yet ... the religious right and our president have no problem with bombing the shit out of iraq killing thousands. its hypocritical ... at best! you opened fire with the implication that my beliefs were the grounds for the murder of billions though killing in the time of war is not murder according to the hebrew language. no i opened fire with the accusation that religion and religious fanaticism were the cause of billions of deaths. thats just the fact budd. and facts is facts. based on the past conversations i figure its probably a liberal. actually no. i liked john mccain. you know ... just because people hate bush and/or didnt vote for him does not mean that they are liberal. if you get to say that ... then i get to say that people that voted for bush are rednecks and hillbillies. craig c. .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

on thu 4 may 2006 145032 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote budd cochran wrote i have no objection to that but id rather see all theories and beliefs concerning the universe taught equally. creation along with evolution then let the kids decide when they get older for themselves. difficult to do since there are so many different religions in the world. the government cant choose one to teach. calling it intelligent design is just an attempt at being politically correct but changes nothing. if one wishes to learn about religion then they should choose whichever one suits them and learn on their own. i think its a bad idea to give the role of teaching religion to government. my point exactly miles. there is insufficient proof of evolution that is too many gaps and jumps that in the end to believe in evolution requires one to believe in the unproven or as the bible puts it faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. hebrews 111 or in other words it becomes a religion. and why are schools teaching a religion iow dont have them teach either of them. science true science is found in observed facts and evidence. you mix hydrochloric acid and sodium bicarbonate and you get carbon dioxide gas. thats observable provable. a few scattered fragments of fossilized bone over a 5 square mile area lucy found on different strata and untested for dna compatibility cannot be considered evidence of a human ancestor without a huge amount of faith. the piltdown man was developed from a single boars tooth fer crying out loud. the brontosaurus is no more because the wrong head was placed on the skeleton . . a head from more than a hundred yards away . . .just to make the claim of having a complete skeleton. imho and the opinion of many scholars evolution requires more faith than christianity because the fossil evidence we see today fits the creation story perfectly. an example im sitting in my home and if i look at any of the sandstone layers around me there are no riverbeds in the layers not even a small brook bed but according to evolution i should be seeing grooves filled with later convoluted-to-fit deposits ...well the geologists say im looking at 40+ million years of time in those stones . . .wheres the years of runoff and erosion but if you look at the stone layers as having been deposited in 40 days and nights compacted by the weight of water which then ran off in huge flows big enough to carve the grand canyon in hours then it all fits perfectly no gaps. yes i was exposed to the early theories of evolution in school and they didnt make sense then they dont make sense now. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** maybe you should sit on your porch at night and look up. if one in a million of those stars up there has a planet going around it and one in a million of those stars has a planet that orbits in the sweet spot that can support life and one in a million of those stars planets has some form of life and one in a million of those stars planets has inteligent life then there is more intelligent life out there than you can count! beekeep greg if you could find a book of history geology law theology science prophecy and philosophy verified by hundreds of experts to be more than 99% accurate would you read it i have. it says there is no life on other planets. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : Annonymous

on thu 4 may 2006 174649 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on thu 4 may 2006 145032 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote budd cochran wrote i have no objection to that but id rather see all theories and beliefs concerning the universe taught equally. creation along with evolution then let the kids decide when they get older for themselves. difficult to do since there are so many different religions in the world. the government cant choose one to teach. calling it intelligent design is just an attempt at being politically correct but changes nothing. if one wishes to learn about religion then they should choose whichever one suits them and learn on their own. i think its a bad idea to give the role of teaching religion to government. my point exactly miles. there is insufficient proof of evolution that is too many gaps and jumps that in the end to believe in evolution requires one to believe in the unproven or as the bible puts it faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. hebrews 111 or in other words it becomes a religion. and why are schools teaching a religion iow dont have them teach either of them. science true science is found in observed facts and evidence. you mix hydrochloric acid and sodium bicarbonate and you get carbon dioxide gas. thats observable provable. a few scattered fragments of fossilized bone over a 5 square mile area lucy found on different strata and untested for dna compatibility cannot be considered evidence of a human ancestor without a huge amount of faith. the piltdown man was developed from a single boars tooth fer crying out loud. the brontosaurus is no more because the wrong head was placed on the skeleton . . a head from more than a hundred yards away . . .just to make the claim of having a complete skeleton. imho and the opinion of many scholars evolution requires more faith than christianity because the fossil evidence we see today fits the creation story perfectly. an example im sitting in my home and if i look at any of the sandstone layers around me there are no riverbeds in the layers not even a small brook bed but according to evolution i should be seeing grooves filled with later convoluted-to-fit deposits ...well the geologists say im looking at 40+ million years of time in those stones . . .wheres the years of runoff and erosion but if you look at the stone layers as having been deposited in 40 days and nights compacted by the weight of water which then ran off in huge flows big enough to carve the grand canyon in hours then it all fits perfectly no gaps. yes i was exposed to the early theories of evolution in school and they didnt make sense then they dont make sense now. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** maybe you should sit on your porch at night and look up. if one in a million of those stars up there has a planet going around it and one in a million of those stars has a planet that orbits in the sweet spot that can support life and one in a million of those stars planets has some form of life and one in a million of those stars planets has inteligent life then there is more intelligent life out there than you can count! beekeep greg if you could find a book of history geology law theology science prophecy and philosophy verified by hundreds of experts to be more than 99% accurate would you read it reading comic books again budd i have. it says there is no life on other planets. well............that answers my first question. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

come on its ok to admit you are as biased about your opinion on it as i am about mine. well ... sure. everyone has bias. i try to base my bias on facts. really what about the fact that the japanese emporer shinto beliefs ordered the killing of innocents during ww-ii hitler nazi and the jews or are you also anti-semetic hindus forbid the consumption of millions of pounds of meat that would prevent starvation stalins paranoias or... well if you havent figured out that the problem is evil people not the religions you never will. organized religion is evil. i have many examples. atheism is evil i have examples. first since it believes in nothing it cannot have a solid foundation for values it offers no hope so you dont care anymore dont care anymore why care about others if others have no worth to care about why should they live theyre using up the resources you need to waste. i dont want it in my government ... and neither did our founding fathers. and you need to learn your constitution.and your history. suggestion turn off the history channel and find a 1930s american history book -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote if you could find a book of history geology law theology science prophecy and philosophy verified by hundreds of experts to be more than 99% accurate would you read it i have. it says there is no life on other planets. it was written by man over 1500 years ago when knowledge of the universe was completely an unknown. .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

-- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams on 4 may 2006 153244 -0700 craig@metronet.com craig@metronet.com wrote come on its ok to admit you are as biased about your opinion on it as i am about mine. well ... sure. everyone has bias. i try to base my bias on facts. organized religion is evil. i have many examples. i dont want it in my government ... and neither did our founding fathers. craig c. i dont know that organized religion is evil. that is a huge over-breadth statement. some people in religions all religions are evil but the religion themselves are not to blame. it is people that make them what they are. like budd. to say that the bible is 99.9% accurate is a pile. and your proof is mine is http//www.carm.org/ and http//www.answersingenesis.org/ and http//www.drdino.com/index.php just for starters. it is people with no tolerance like that that end up giving religion a bad name. at the same time religion requires faith which is literally a willingness to without question accept what can not be seen and what can not be proven. gee just like evolution . . . . the definition itself speaks to the inability to have proof that the religion is right. if you want proof you dont have faith. it requires an unquestioning faith. more of the tenets of the evolution religion that is really the rub of it all. if you get people to accept what you can not prove and what they can not say without any question or hesitation and more evolution religion. ........well..........you just are not going to get people with a great deal of willingness to listen to anything that is contrary to what they have chosen to worship. now that is a fact jack. and you think youre such an expert on religions rotflmbo!!!! it doesnt in itself make any particular religion wrong nor does it in itself prove any religion wrong. it just makes you realize how biased and how little perspective fundamentalist religious fanatics will be. it is simply put the nature of the game itself. how aptly you describe you own biases and limitations without the wisdom to see them applied to yourself. romans 122 professing to be wise they became fools. *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : Annonymous

on thu 4 may 2006 175813 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote come on its ok to admit you are as biased about your opinion on it as i am about mine. well ... sure. everyone has bias. i try to base my bias on facts. really what about the fact that the japanese emporer shinto beliefs ordered the killing of innocents during ww-ii hitler nazi and the jews or are you also anti-semetic hindus forbid the consumption of millions of pounds of meat that would prevent starvation stalins paranoias or... well if you havent figured out that the problem is evil people not the religions you never will. organized religion is evil. i have many examples. atheism is evil i have examples. lol. you get any closer to the edge there budd and you aint coming back. first since it believes in nothing believes in nothing you gotta splain that one lucy. it cannot have a solid foundation for values it offers no hope so you dont care anymore dont care anymore why care about others if others have no worth to care about why should they live theyre using up the resources you need to waste. now i am not an atheist but you really have the belief all fucked up which is not a huge surprise. dont play the readers digest game.............oh hold it i forgot who i was talking to. i think that you actually believe that shit you say. you really are a load. what a hoot. i missed you man. its like reruns of the beverly hillbillys except dumber. i dont want it in my government ... and neither did our founding fathers. and you need to learn your constitution.and your history. suggestion turn off the history channel and find a 1930s american history book .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

on wed 3 may 2006 181814 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote bull. you need to look at the otherside of the coin friend. millions more have been killed by atheists than by all the christian faiths combined. why are you not complaining about the 6 million jews killed by the humanist adolf hitler whos only goal was to force the evolution of man into a perfect species now budd. first off adolf hitler was a catholic. second more people are killed in the name of god than for any other reason. beekeep no greg. hitler was raised in a catholic parochial school his family was lutheran but he renounced all beliefs when he learned about evolution. christianity has only been around for a couple thousand years and you claim it has been the cause of more deaths than all other beliefs and non-beliefs for the millions of years you believe in your math doesnt add up greg. now how many did hirohito kill shintoism stalin communism genghis khan hinduism even when you just use the last 8000 years a figure generally acceptable to christians it still doesnt add up. sorry. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : miles

manny davis wrote craig@metronet.com craig@metronet.com wrote in some people seem to believe that seperation of church and state is mandated by the constitution. they would be wrong. its not in the constitution. it could be argued that the establishment clause provides such a separation. how so the constitution only says that the gov. cant pass laws for or against religion. it says nothing about it being wrong for a governor to have a christmas tree in his office. .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

since the bible the king james version is 99.9% accurate i have links!! from its beginnings when moses got the ten commandments do you think theres a possibility it could be right about that personally ... no i dont believe it. mainly because religion and belief of higher beings is mankinds way of explaining that which he doesnt understand imo. of course organized religion is going to continue to teach the belief of hell ... if they dont they will lose membership. fear and guilt are powerful tools. mans governments and religion have used it for centuries. oh so you have no problem calling thousands of scholars over the last 4000 years liars just plain atheist that i am not the bad guy. i dont think youre a bad guy. yes you blame me for wars. i am a christian. craig if you were my neighbor and you needed help your beliefs arent important the fact you need help is. i have no doubt that you would help. as would i if you needed assistance. a person doesnt have to be religious to be a good guy. but religion would have you believe that. no christianity doesnt. craig before i became a christian you would have been on your own if you had needed my help. i wasnt a nice person. originally you implied that christianity was the cause of all wars. no i didnt. i talked specifically about religion and religious fanatics. i dont really care what flavor of religion or spirituality that a person subscribes to. thats a personal choice. where it gets rediculous and dangerous is when people give undue power and authority to a religion or a religious leader. and if that person or being is a god then what deny him / her i worship only god his son jesus and the holy spirit not any pope or priest or janitor. power corrupts. thats a fact. and exactly the reason that religion has no place in government. the quote is; power corrupts and asolute power corrupts absolutely. its a human frailty and god isnt a human. thank you for that much but i have to ask why is my constitutionally guaranteed beliefs of any importance it isnt. its only important to me if your beliefs become law. i dont believe what you believe. under our system of law my beliefs are every bit as valid as yours. hell a devil worshipper has the same rights that we do. the issue is at what point does a government leader overstep his or her bounds well its when their beliefs and consequently their actions as a representative of the this country infinge on my constitutional rights. have you been ordered to worship differently or to worship if you dont list any pending legislation to that effect. stem cell research is a classic example. it could save millions of people. why arent we pursuing it easy ... the religious right have an issue with it and bush backs them. how dare they prevent me and possibly members of my future family from living a better/longer life because of their crazy ethical argument. we dont do stem cell research because the best source of stem cells is from fetal tissue of an already doomed embryo. doomed by whom im a diabetic heart patient polio survivor and i have obesity and arthritis. yeah i could benefit from such research but i will not condemn a viable embryo for my health. it is wrong. it is killing. can an human embryo develop into a pig a horse a germ no. can a human zygote human sperm or egg just a few post ago you were whiuning about killing in war and now you want to take the stem cells of aborted fetuses killed for no reason except birth control and we cried over hitlers genocide !!!! to save your sorry butt. hypocrite! yet ... the religious right and our president have no problem with bombing the shit out of iraq killing thousands. its hypocritical ... at best! look whos talking. al queda sheltered and trained by saddam kill 3000 at the wtc and you want stem cells. you opened fire with the implication that my beliefs were the grounds for the murder of billions though killing in the time of war is not murder according to the hebrew language. no i opened fire with the accusation that religion and religious fanaticism were the cause of billions of deaths. thats just the fact budd. and facts is facts. agreed but you facts at best are slanted toward the justified killing of innocents . .very liberal. based on the past conversations i figure its probably a liberal. actually no. i liked john mccain. you know ... just because people hate bush and/or didnt vote for him does not mean that they are liberal. if you get to say that ... then i get to say that people that voted for bush are rednecks and hillbillies. well if being a conservative fundamental christian raised in the country in a dirt poor family but believing the founding fathers knew more of what this country needed than you and being willing to die to defend even your rights then sir ahs prouder than durt ta be-un a

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

on thu 4 may 2006 174649 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on thu 4 may 2006 145032 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote budd cochran wrote i have no objection to that but id rather see all theories and beliefs concerning the universe taught equally. creation along with evolution then let the kids decide when they get older for themselves. difficult to do since there are so many different religions in the world. the government cant choose one to teach. calling it intelligent design is just an attempt at being politically correct but changes nothing. if one wishes to learn about religion then they should choose whichever one suits them and learn on their own. i think its a bad idea to give the role of teaching religion to government. my point exactly miles. there is insufficient proof of evolution that is too many gaps and jumps that in the end to believe in evolution requires one to believe in the unproven or as the bible puts it faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. hebrews 111 or in other words it becomes a religion. and why are schools teaching a religion iow dont have them teach either of them. science true science is found in observed facts and evidence. you mix hydrochloric acid and sodium bicarbonate and you get carbon dioxide gas. thats observable provable. a few scattered fragments of fossilized bone over a 5 square mile area lucy found on different strata and untested for dna compatibility cannot be considered evidence of a human ancestor without a huge amount of faith. the piltdown man was developed from a single boars tooth fer crying out loud. the brontosaurus is no more because the wrong head was placed on the skeleton . . a head from more than a hundred yards away . . .just to make the claim of having a complete skeleton. imho and the opinion of many scholars evolution requires more faith than christianity because the fossil evidence we see today fits the creation story perfectly. an example im sitting in my home and if i look at any of the sandstone layers around me there are no riverbeds in the layers not even a small brook bed but according to evolution i should be seeing grooves filled with later convoluted-to-fit deposits ...well the geologists say im looking at 40+ million years of time in those stones . . .wheres the years of runoff and erosion but if you look at the stone layers as having been deposited in 40 days and nights compacted by the weight of water which then ran off in huge flows big enough to carve the grand canyon in hours then it all fits perfectly no gaps. yes i was exposed to the early theories of evolution in school and they didnt make sense then they dont make sense now. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** maybe you should sit on your porch at night and look up. if one in a million of those stars up there has a planet going around it and one in a million of those stars has a planet that orbits in the sweet spot that can support life and one in a million of those stars planets has some form of life and one in a million of those stars planets has inteligent life then there is more intelligent life out there than you can count! beekeep greg if you could find a book of history geology law theology science prophecy and philosophy verified by hundreds of experts to be more than 99% accurate would you read it reading comic books again budd i have. it says there is no life on other planets. well............that answers my first question. what question all i read was a snide remark from one that seeks to destroy me. btw you do know theyre using comic books to train surgical students didnt you look it up. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : Annonymous

budd cochran wrote well ... sure. everyone has bias. i try to base my bias on facts. really what about the fact that the japanese emporer shinto beliefs ordered the killing of innocents during ww-ii hitler nazi and the jews or are you also anti-semetic hindus forbid the consumption of millions of pounds of meat that would prevent starvation stalins paranoias or... well if you havent figured out that the problem is evil people not the religions you never will. key word organized religion. what is religion who comes up with the beliefs who organizes it people ... usually power hungry people. your example proves that. organized religion is evil. i have many examples. atheism is evil i have examples. first since it believes in nothing it cannot have a solid foundation for values it offers no hope so you dont care anymore dont care anymore why care about others if others have no worth to care about why should they live theyre using up the resources you need to waste. nope. i have values budd. dont own a bible and never will. in fact id put my values up against any bible thumping church goer. i dont want it in my government ... and neither did our founding fathers. and you need to learn your constitution.and your history. suggestion turn off the history channel and find a 1930s american history book how about this believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only and not opinions i contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole american people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof thus building a ***wall of separation between church and state***. excerpt of a letter to danbury bapist association of connecticut written by thomas jefferson. author of the constitution take a look at the following link. youll find that most if not all founding fathers felt very strongly that there should be a separation of church and state. why they knew how corrupt religion can become if it exercises judicial or legislative power. http//www.members.tripod.com/candst/tnppage/quoteidx.htm craig c. .

From : miles

beekeep wrote maybe you should sit on your porch at night and look up. if one in a million of those stars up there has a planet going around it and one in a million of those stars has a planet that orbits in the sweet spot that can support life and one in a million of those stars planets has some form of life and one in a million of those stars planets has inteligent life then there is more intelligent life out there than you can count! not to mention the fact that the light from many of those stars traveled for well over the 8000 years that the universe is said to have existed. .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote there is insufficient proof of evolution that is too many gaps and jumps that in the end to believe in evolution requires one to believe in the unproven or as the bible puts it faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. hebrews 111 or in other words it becomes a religion. and why are schools teaching a religion evolution is not presented as proof. we show what we have found and know so far. youre free to decide what it means to you or reject it all as you do. i was taught evolution in school. it was never asked of me to believe in the unproven aka faith. it was taught as a theory based on physical things we can see. every decade more and more is found and pieces of the puzzle put together. however i firmly believe weve only seen a very small fraction of the puzzle. iow dont have them teach either of them. science true science is found in observed facts and evidence. thats all i was ever taught in school. they showed what was physically observed and a variety of ideas based on factual science to explain it. nobody ever presented evolution to me and said such and such is the only explanation. what was presented in physical form was factual. the interpretation of those facts as to what they mean is up to each individual. your faith on the other hand has to physical properties to it. nothing tangible. it is 100% faith. cannot be considered evidence of a human ancestor without a huge amount of faith. nobody ever said it was proven with no margin of error. however each decade more and more pieces have slowly brought parts of the so called missing link together. your faith has zero pieces of the puzzle. it is 100% faith based on a book written over 1500 years ago by man and accepted by you as fact. imho and the opinion of many scholars evolution requires more faith than christianity because the fossil evidence we see today fits the creation story perfectly. it was my argument earlier that the concept of evolution and the big bang is not entirely in conflict with the concept of creationism. you told me i was wrong on that. that they are in complete conflict. now youve changed your tune on that it does not fit it perfectly. that would imply the entire universe is only 8000 years old or so. i believe without a doubt is is far older than that. an example im sitting in my home and if i look at any of the sandstone layers around me there are no riverbeds in the layers not even a small brook bed but according to evolution i should be seeing grooves filled with later convoluted-to-fit deposits ...well the geologists say im looking at 40+ million years of time in those stones . . .wheres the years of runoff and erosion but if you look at the stone layers as having been deposited in 40 days and nights compacted by the weight of water which then ran off in huge flows big enough to carve the grand canyon in hours then it all fits perfectly no gaps. if the grand canyon were carved by water in a matter of hours that would not explain the different layers we see nor the varying fossilized life forms in each layer. towards the bottom you see fossils of very primitive marine creatures. toward the top you see more advanced marine fossils. if the canyon was created in 40 days then how do you explain the differences in life forms between the canyon floor and the canyon rim explain how i can look up at stars that are tens of thousands of light years away. even if they were suddenly put there 8000 years ago their light would not have reached us this quickly. not even close. yes i was exposed to the early theories of evolution in school and they didnt make sense then they dont make sense now. neither does creationism unless you use 100% faith. putting that much faith based entirely on a book written by man eons ago doesnt make alot of sense. we know for a fact that countless civilizations existed that created a religion as a means to form a controllable society. what ever happened to the gods of the aztecs toltecs and mayans for instance at the time they were every bit as real as todays gods. .

From : Annonymous

oh so you have no problem calling thousands of scholars over the last 4000 years liars nope no problem. religious corruption goes back to the establishment of the first church. that includes scholars. yes you blame me for wars. i am a christian. not all christians are fanatics ... but some are. crusades wwii for christs sake. i have pictures of a catholic bishop blessing hitler and his troops. i have another picture of a different bishop blessing american troops. how do you explain that no christianity doesnt. craig before i became a christian you would have been on your own if you had needed my help. i wasnt a nice person. okay budd christianity helped you. but im a nice person ... im not christian. i also have good values. christianity is not a necessary element to peace/kindness/good values. have you been ordered to worship differently or to worship if you dont list any pending legislation to that effect. no ... nor did i say any such thing. why are you changing the subject doomed by whom embryos that have been already been aborted. death of the embryo is imminent. why not make something good come from the unfortunate abortion im a diabetic heart patient polio survivor and i have obesity and arthritis. yeah i could benefit from such research but i will not condemn a viable embryo for my health. it is wrong. it is killing. no ... abortion is killing. stem cell research is research that can help cure countless diseases. if you dont want the benefit of stem cell research ... fine. but why condemn everyone else with your backwards ethical argument just a few post ago you were whiuning about killing in war and now you want to take the stem cells of aborted fetuses killed for no reason except birth control and we cried over hitlers genocide !!!! to save your sorry butt. hypocrite! what in the hell is the hangup with stem cells the baby is dead. there is nothing that can be done about it at that point. its aborted. finished! instead of completely wasting that life ... why not use it to help cure ailments i see no difference between extracting stem cells and donating an organ. sure the baby didnt have the choice to donate the stem cells. but that is an abortion argument not stem cell. if anything right wingers are the hypocrites here. many right wingers are pro-choice ... but fight stem cell research. that makes no sense. look whos talking. al queda sheltered and trained by saddam kill 3000 at the wtc and you want stem cells. please dont change the subject. this is not a debate about iraq. its about religion remember only you could tie stem cells and religion to iraq. youre grasping. agreed but you facts at best are slanted toward the justified killing of innocents . .very liberal. what!! youre spouting non-sense here. you have no idea what my beliefs are concerning abortion. quit changing the subject. are you afraid that if stem cell research is approved that people are going to start lining up to abort their babies craig c. .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

if that is what you believe then its always going to be a collection of useless words. but remember its what you believe about it not me. to me the whole bible is a completed work and no part stands alone not one verse. the whole book means much to me. take care of you and yours my friend. -- budd cochran budd cochran wrote if you could find a book of history geology law theology science prophecy and philosophy verified by hundreds of experts to be more than 99% accurate would you read it i have. it says there is no life on other planets. it was written by man over 1500 years ago when knowledge of the universe was completely an unknown. *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

have you not heard that scientists have changed the speed of light theyve brought it to a complete stop. mere little human beings. now how hard would it be for a truly omnipotent god to a create light already on its way or b speed up light -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams beekeep wrote maybe you should sit on your porch at night and look up. if one in a million of those stars up there has a planet going around it and one in a million of those stars has a planet that orbits in the sweet spot that can support life and one in a million of those stars planets has some form of life and one in a million of those stars planets has inteligent life then there is more intelligent life out there than you can count! not to mention the fact that the light from many of those stars traveled for well over the 8000 years that the universe is said to have existed. *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote if that is what you believe then its always going to be a collection of useless words. but remember its what you believe about it not me. to me the whole bible is a completed work and no part stands alone not one verse. the whole book means much to me. other religious books around the world mean much to others but are in conflict with your book. then there are the dead religions of long gone civilizations. those religions were well developed and existed for 1000s of years before dying off. why is this current religion any different .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

i havent missed you one bit. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : nosey

scientists have only slowed the speed of light not stopped it. the amount it was slowed was a fraction of a billionth of a second. that was a test done in the past couple years. not that it has anything to do with religion or gas boycotts they slowed the speed of light down to about 38 mph. http//www..harvard.edu/gazette/1999/02.18/light.html -- ken .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote have you not heard that scientists have changed the speed of light theyve brought it to a complete stop. mere little human beings. now how hard would it be for a truly omnipotent god to a create light already on its way or b speed up light scientists have only slowed the speed of light not stopped it. the amount it was slowed was a fraction of a billionth of a second. that was a test done in the past couple years. but all you seem to ever do is use god to explain what you otherwise cant. civilizations have done that for eternity. however some things that were once credited to the gods have been easily explained by modern science. if you went back in time with todays technology you would appear to people as a god. .

From : Annonymous

on thu 4 may 2006 215955 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote have you not heard that scientists have changed the speed of light theyve brought it to a complete stop. mere little human beings. which has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation at hand. you are trying to act as if you actually know something.........you just have trouble putting what you read into a setting where it has some relevance. sort of like you. now how hard would it be for a truly omnipotent god to a create light already on its way good question. like i saw godzilla throw a whole building about 100 miles on tv once. dude i saw captain kirk change himself into some kind of anti matter once too. so i suppose your god of light could probably create a light. i mean general electric does it every day. or b speed up light you just have to kick its ass.........tell it to hussle up and get with the program. thatll git-r-dun every time. itll go as fast as you want it to. not hard. .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

budd cochran wrote there is insufficient proof of evolution that is too many gaps and jumps that in the end to believe in evolution requires one to believe in the unproven or as the bible puts it faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. hebrews 111 or in other words it becomes a religion. and why are schools teaching a religion evolution is not presented as proof. we show what we have found and know so far. youre free to decide what it means to you or reject it all as you do. i was taught evolution in school. it was never asked of me to believe in the unproven aka faith. it was taught as a theory based on physical things we can see. every decade more and more is found and pieces of the puzzle put together. however i firmly believe weve only seen a very small fraction of the puzzle. to accept the theory of evolution on the basis of what has been found is pure blind faith. there are no transitional fossils there is no evidence of molecules-to-man evolution. lucy the so called missing link is less than 40% complete if you accept have faith that all the bones fragments are from one creature though scattered over 5 square miles and three geological levels. if you take them at face value no faith then they are just a pile of bone fossils from a 5 square mile area. since the bones are foissilized there is no way to prove the fragments are genetically identical which they would be if they all were from the same being. a small fraction id say more like just a few random pieces from several different puzzles. iow dont have them teach either of them. science true science is found in observed facts and evidence. thats all i was ever taught in school. they showed what was physically observed and a variety of ideas based on factual science to explain it. nobody ever presented evolution to me and said such and such is the only explanation. what was presented in physical form was factual. the interpretation of those facts as to what they mean is up to each individual. your faith on the other hand has to physical properties to it. nothing tangible. it is 100% faith. miles no scierntist can point to a fragment and definitively say this is proto-human. or this is human. or any such. why because the fossil contains no dna to test. i have the same fragments as you or the scientists but i use a different set of presumptions about them. in the creation those fossils were made in just over a year during the flodd of noah. modern testing and discoveries are showing the process doesnt have to take millions of years . even the famous opal gems of austrailia can now be made in a mater of months. at one time it was believed to take thirty million years iirc. cannot be considered evidence of a human ancestor without a huge amount of faith. nobody ever said it was proven with no margin of error. however each decade more and more pieces have slowly brought parts of the so called missing link together. your faith has zero pieces of the puzzle. it is 100% faith based on a book written over 1500 years ago by man and accepted by you as fact. miles you strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. creationist have exactly the same evidence as evolutionists just a different way of looking at it. yes the links i gave are christian / creationist links. thats because no secular / evolutionist site will risk losing support or effectiveness by giving the true information about the creationist viewpoint. imho and the opinion of many scholars evolution requires more faith than christianity because the fossil evidence we see today fits the creation story perfectly. it was my argument earlier that the concept of evolution and the big bang is not entirely in conflict with the concept of creationism. you told me i was wrong on that. that they are in complete conflict. now youve changed your tune on that no im looking at the fossil record thru different glasses than you. big bang nope didnt happen and recent red shift studies support it. the new center of the universe is our solar system. it does not fit it perfectly. that would imply the entire universe is only 8000 years old or so. i believe without a doubt is is far older than that. and i believe with less doubt than you that it is only about 6500-8000 years old. read genesis again. every step is logically place so that no living creature or plant lacks for what it needs to survive. that means that there was no evolution there was no survival of the fittest because they were not needed. so nothing died off before its next evolutionary step could be born ending a kind of creature. and no transistional forms were needed to be born so there are no transitional fossils. pure simple perfect logic. think about it ... if you were building a habitat wouldnt you follow the same procedure an example im sitting in my home and if i look at any of

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

budd cochran wrote have you not heard that scientists have changed the speed of light theyve brought it to a complete stop. mere little human beings. now how hard would it be for a truly omnipotent god to a create light already on its way or b speed up light scientists have only slowed the speed of light not stopped it. the amount it was slowed was a fraction of a billionth of a second. that was a test done in the past couple years. http//.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1124540.stm http//www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3type=article&articleid=218392702 and i can come up with ten or more pages of the same. but all you seem to ever do is use god to explain what you otherwise cant. civilizations have done that for eternity. however some things that were once credited to the gods have been easily explained by modern science. if you went back in time with todays technology you would appear to people as a god. i see . . .i am not allowed to use my faith and beliefs to explain things. thats fine as long as you dont use evolution big bang or any of that to explain your side. i suggest we end the conversation before it gets into an argument. if neither of us can use the sources we believe in theres nothing to say. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : tbone

now that is really cool. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving scientists have only slowed the speed of light not stopped it. the amount it was slowed was a fraction of a billionth of a second. that was a test done in the past couple years. not that it has anything to do with religion or gas boycotts they slowed the speed of light down to about 38 mph. http//www..harvard.edu/gazette/1999/02.18/light.html -- ken .

From : beekeep

on thu 4 may 2006 174649 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote maybe you should sit on your porch at night and look up. if one in a million of those stars up there has a planet going around it and one in a million of those stars has a planet that orbits in the sweet spot that can support life and one in a million of those stars planets has some form of life and one in a million of those stars planets has inteligent life then there is more intelligent life out there than you can count! beekeep greg if you could find a book of history geology law theology science prophecy and philosophy verified by hundreds of experts to be more than 99% accurate would you read it i have. it says there is no life on other planets. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** so then your god isnt powerful enough to create life elsewhere beekeep .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

budd cochran wrote well ... sure. everyone has bias. i try to base my bias on facts. really what about the fact that the japanese emporer shinto beliefs ordered the killing of innocents during ww-ii hitler nazi and the jews or are you also anti-semetic hindus forbid the consumption of millions of pounds of meat that would prevent starvation stalins paranoias or... well if you havent figured out that the problem is evil people not the religions you never will. key word organized religion. what is religion who comes up with the beliefs who organizes it people ... usually power hungry people. your example proves that. no it proves your information is faulty. organized religion is evil. i have many examples. atheism is evil i have examples. first since it believes in nothing it cannot have a solid foundation for values it offers no hope so you dont care anymore dont care anymore why care about others if others have no worth to care about why should they live theyre using up the resources you need to waste. nope. i have values budd. dont own a bible and never will. in fact id put my values up against any bible thumping church goer. really i hope so. i dont want it in my government ... and neither did our founding fathers. and you need to learn your constitution.and your history. suggestion turn off the history channel and find a 1930s american history book how about this believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only and not opinions i contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole american people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof thus building a ***wall of separation between church and state***. excerpt of a letter to danbury bapist association of connecticut written by thomas jefferson. author of the constitution take a look at the following link. youll find that most if not all founding fathers felt very strongly that there should be a separation of church and state. why they knew how corrupt religion can become if it exercises judicial or legislative power. http//www.members.tripod.com/candst/tnppage/quoteidx.htm craig c. no craig they didnt...they did not want to be told what government authorized church to attend like in england. but since you have made up your mind far be it from me to argue with you. i wish you peace. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

on thu 4 may 2006 174649 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote maybe you should sit on your porch at night and look up. if one in a million of those stars up there has a planet going around it and one in a million of those stars has a planet that orbits in the sweet spot that can support life and one in a million of those stars planets has some form of life and one in a million of those stars planets has inteligent life then there is more intelligent life out there than you can count! beekeep greg if you could find a book of history geology law theology science prophecy and philosophy verified by hundreds of experts to be more than 99% accurate would you read it i have. it says there is no life on other planets. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** so then your god isnt powerful enough to create life elsewhere beekeep he is but he chose to make you me and everyone else special to him. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

budd cochran wrote i see . . .i am not allowed to use my faith and beliefs to explain things. thats fine as long as you dont use evolution big bang or any of that to explain your side. you have explained nothing. you just say more or less...hmm i dunno god musta done that. ya thats the ticket. budd i fully respect your right to believe as you wish. it works for you. thats great. i have not used evolution to explain my side. i do not know what the real truth is. nobody does. not you nor anyone else. we are all very lacking in knowledge when it comes to our own existence. you believe you know the truth. trouble is many others in the world claim that too but their god is the real truth to them yours isnt and vis-versa. miles yes i am biased towards the first century christian beliefs but please remember this there are fewer copies of the works of plato socrates etc. still around than there are of early manuscripts and copies of the bible. those copies of the works of the philosophers are less than 80% accurate to each other yet the philosophers are accepted without reservation. the holy bible is more accurate compared to the earliest manuscripts even in the modern translations than those philosophical; works yet it is rejected without being read. why is that because man in his pride doesnt want to risk the possibility of a greater being than man. yet he comes up with idols to substitute for god. and those that accept their spiritual frailty and seek god are looked upon as weak and losers. look at how t-bone and theguy treat me if you want a perfect set of examples. in the history of the nation of israel when they were closest to god they prospered. did they fight wars yes but they prospered. when they turned from god they suffered led to captivity enslaved so on. christians want the same prosperity for this country and for the world. go in peace my friend. i thank you for the intelligent conversation without any name calling or verbal abuse. you are a gentleman and a friend. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

and your math still doesnt add up. israel was faithful to jehovah for most of its history and only battled when required. the rest of the time it was peaceful and prosperous. -- budd cochran on thu 4 may 2006 183656 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote now budd. first off adolf hitler was a catholic. second more people are killed in the name of god than for any other reason. beekeep no greg. hitler was raised in a catholic parochial school his family was lutheran but he renounced all beliefs when he learned about evolution. christianity has only been around for a couple thousand years and you claim it has been the cause of more deaths than all other beliefs and non-beliefs for the millions of years you believe in your math doesnt add up greg. now how many did hirohito kill shintoism stalin communism genghis khan hinduism even when you just use the last 8000 years a figure generally acceptable to christians it still doesnt add up. sorry. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** i said god not christ. beekeep *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

oh so you have no problem calling thousands of scholars over the last 4000 years liars nope no problem. religious corruption goes back to the establishment of the first church. that includes scholars. yes you blame me for wars. i am a christian. not all christians are fanatics ... but some are. crusades im what t-bone and theguy call a fanatic. im a jesus fan. wwii for christs sake. i have pictures of a catholic bishop blessing hitler and his troops. i have another picture of a different bishop blessing american troops. how do you explain that simple one was blessing american troops the other was saving his neck by following orders and knuckling under to a tyrant. no christianity doesnt. craig before i became a christian you would have been on your own if you had needed my help. i wasnt a nice person. okay budd christianity helped you. but im a nice person ... im not christian. i also have good values. christianity is not a necessary element to peace/kindness/good values. never said it was for making everyone a good person. but i dont think your values have a strong foundation and youll change them as needed to get by. have you been ordered to worship differently or to worship if you dont list any pending legislation to that effect. no ... nor did i say any such thing. why are you changing the subject im not. youre the one worried about the seperation of church and state and im asking if you been ordered to attend a state authorized church. here in utah some think you have to be a mormon to get along here. doomed by whom embryos that have been already been aborted. death of the embryo is imminent. why not make something good come from the unfortunate abortion why was the abortion done im a diabetic heart patient polio survivor and i have obesity and arthritis. yeah i could benefit from such research but i will not condemn a viable embryo for my health. it is wrong. it is killing. no ... abortion is killing. stem cell research is research that can help cure countless diseases. if you dont want the benefit of stem cell research ... fine. but why condemn everyone else with your backwards ethical argument backwards ancient warriors ate the brains of their opponents to gain the enemys knowledge their testicles to get their manhood vigor their legs to get their strength and theirt hearts to get their spirit. since a recent expose showed a huge portion of the stem cell research hjad been faked how sure are you of it just a few post ago you were whiuning about killing in war and now you want to take the stem cells of aborted fetuses killed for no reason except birth control and we cried over hitlers genocide !!!! to save your sorry butt. hypocrite! what in the hell is the hangup with stem cells the baby is dead. there is nothing that can be done about it at that point. its aborted. finished! instead of completely wasting that life ... why not use it to help cure ailments because the baby should not be dead. you are benefitting from the murder of a life an acessory after the fact. i see no difference between extracting stem cells and donating an organ. sure the baby didnt have the choice to donate the stem cells. but that is an abortion argument not stem cell. when did the baby sign over its stem cells i can no longer donate organs because of my health but at one time most of my body was signed over to aid others. i had to sign my permission the baby couldnt. if anything right wingers are the hypocrites here. many right wingers are pro-choice ... but fight stem cell research. that makes no sense. im anti-abortion except in life threatening cases verified by more than one doctor. abortion for the sake of birth control is murder. look whos talking. al queda sheltered and trained by saddam kill 3000 at the wtc and you want stem cells. please dont change the subject. this is not a debate about iraq. its about religion remember only you could tie stem cells and religion to iraq. youre grasping. no you brought up the politics. as for religion your stance is very clear. you do not correctly understand mine but you dont care to either. your loss. agreed but you facts at best are slanted toward the justified killing of innocents . .very liberal. what!! youre spouting non-sense here. you have no idea what my beliefs are concerning abortion. quit changing the subject. yes you made it clear that the life is unimportant the stem cells are all that the life is worth. are you afraid that if stem cell research is approved that people are going to start lining up to abort their babies no theyre doing it already in the name of birth control. cya craig. have a nice life. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any othe

From : roy

on fri 05 may 2006 063345 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote budd cochran wrote and your math still doesnt add up. israel was faithful to jehovah for most of its history and only battled when required. the rest of the time it was peaceful and prosperous. fact does remain that throughout the worlds history more wars have been fought in the name of god than any other reason. each side has had their version of what or who god is and they kill for him. i dont know if that is true or not but it is certainly true that religion has been at the root of a lot of killing on this planet. again i dont think you can necessarily blame religion. i dont know of any religion that advocates murder or death to others even to those of other religions. once people get involved in it though they change it. fanatisicm is more prevelant in religion than anywhere else. again that is the nature of faith. you have to completely commit to something that you dont know is true and that tends to support fundamentalism. fundamentalism has clearly been the most divisive trend in this country more so than any political movement. look at the fundamentalists on this ng. they dont just take offense to what is said they actively seek to find things to take offense about and if it could be their religious fundamentalism well katy bar the door you havve become the enemy. most fundamentalists are not very well educated or very bright either. not trying to cut anyone down here just looking at the demographic facts. you dare to mention facts here vbg roy .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote to accept the theory of evolution on the basis of what has been found is pure blind faith. there are no transitional fossils there is no evidence of molecules-to-man evolution. and there is nothing at all to support anything different. your view is that if you cant yet explain something it must have been done by a god. that is the belief people had 1000s of years ago. different gods but same concept. whatever happened to the gods of the egyptians aztecs mayans toltecs and so on their gods were often vastly different from one another and developed independently. they were used just as you do today. to explain what you do not know. makes life simple nice and tidy for those that need such simple reasoning. miles no scierntist can point to a fragment and definitively say this is proto-human. or this is human. or any such. why because the fossil contains no dna to test. which means little. your bible cant explain any fossils we have found. none. it says nothing about this planet before mans existence. you have stated your firm belief that man existed from the beginning right along side the dinos and all of them for only 8000 years. so what years exactly do you believe the dinos existed what happened to them and when exactly i have the same fragments as you or the scientists but i use a different set of presumptions about them. in the creation those fossils were made in just over a year during the flodd of noah. bones became fossils in only a year mighty convenient to be able to speed such things up to fit your faith. modern testing and discoveries are showing the process doesnt have to take millions of years it takes more than 1 year. the fossilized trees of the petrified forest can be traced through the years. maybe dating techniques cant say just how old they are but they can show the transitions between different trees. they were not all petrified in a single year. tree rings can give good pictures of weather etc. it is very easy to look at these trees and determine that some are over a 1000 years older than another. your one year theory doesnt come close to explain the differences seen in these trees. miles you strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. creationist have exactly the same evidence as evolutionists just a different way of looking at it. not so. creationists virtually ignore physical evidence. they have zero physical evidence to support their faith. it is 100% faith based. no im looking at the fossil record thru different glasses than you. big bang nope didnt happen and recent red shift studies support it. the new center of the universe is our solar system. red shift studies are not new. they were started in the late 70s and well documented right here at the university of arizona in the mid 80s. thats old stuff budd. recent studies done just this past year have given substantial credibility to the big bang theory. however the big bang is not in conflict with creationism. and i believe with less doubt than you that it is only about 6500-8000 years old. you have zero physical evidence to support that claim. zero. read genesis again. every step is logically place so that no living creature or plant lacks for what it needs to survive. that means that there was no evolution there was no survival of the fittest because they were not needed. so nothing died off before its next evolutionary step could be born ending a kind of creature. and no transistional forms were needed to be born so there are no transitional fossils. there are some transitional fossils. bird like mammels with the thumb facing backwards like a bird. mammels with partial gill structures. the list is endless of bizarre creatures with left over features that served no purpose but does connect them to earlier life. oh ya. use the omnipotent god whenever you cant otherwise explain something. you do realize people have done that for 1000s of years. many of todays every day things we take for granted and know the exact causes were the work of gods only a couple 100 years ago. people always need an explanation for what they see around them. putting your faith in a book written 180 years ago or so that was written by a man stole passages and information from a work his gfather was doing and since being written has been re-written 40 or so times to adapt it to new interpretations of evidence is even more foolish...imho. i do not put faith into a book written 180 years ago or so. you seem to think that the theory of the big bang evolution etc. is entirely based on darwin. it is not. it is a continuing learning process with inputs from sources all over the world based on physical things we can see. your faith is based on nothing physical at all. pleas list them or direct me to them. you have piqued my curiosity. the aztecs for one. their gods existed to keep order in society and to

From : miles

could be a plesiosaurus and the behemoth which could be a dinosaur. to the oriental nations living with dragons pterodons is historical tradition if not fact. there are many legends from all over the world talking about a huge flood. problem is that most legends dont coincide to anywheres near the same years. show me any society that ever wrote about living with t-rexs. . 222 317381 yxb6g.11301$xv5.878@fed1read10 budd cochran wrote i see . . .i am not allowed to use my faith and beliefs to explain things. thats fine as long as you dont use evolution big bang or any of that to explain your side. you have explained nothing. you just say more or less...hmm i dunno god musta done that. ya thats the ticket. budd i fully respect your right to believe as you wish. it works for you. thats great. i have not used evolution to explain my side. i do not know what the real truth is. nobody does. not you nor anyone else. we are all very lacking in knowledge when it comes to our own existence. you believe you know the truth. trouble is many others in the world claim that too but their god is the real truth to them yours isnt and vis-versa. .

From : Annonymous

on thu 4 may 2006 231327 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote oh so you have no problem calling thousands of scholars over the last 4000 years liars nope no problem. religious corruption goes back to the establishment of the first church. that includes scholars. yes you blame me for wars. i am a christian. not all christians are fanatics ... but some are. crusades im what t-bone and theguy call a fanatic. im a jesus fan. jesus fan. thats a good one. not a bad thing to be i just wish that was all that you were. wwii for christs sake. i have pictures of a catholic bishop blessing hitler and his troops. i have another picture of a different bishop blessing american troops. how do you explain that simple one was blessing american troops the other was saving his neck by following orders and knuckling under to a tyrant. no christianity doesnt. craig before i became a christian you would have been on your own if you had needed my help. i wasnt a nice person. okay budd christianity helped you. but im a nice person ... im not christian. i also have good values. christianity is not a necessary element to peace/kindness/good values. never said it was for making everyone a good person. but i dont think your values have a strong foundation and youll change them as needed to get by. have you been ordered to worship differently or to worship if you dont list any pending legislation to that effect. no ... nor did i say any such thing. why are you changing the subject im not. youre the one worried about the seperation of church and state and im asking if you been ordered to attend a state authorized church. here in utah some think you have to be a mormon to get along here. doomed by whom embryos that have been already been aborted. death of the embryo is imminent. why not make something good come from the unfortunate abortion why was the abortion done im a diabetic heart patient polio survivor and i have obesity and arthritis. yeah i could benefit from such research but i will not condemn a viable embryo for my health. it is wrong. it is killing. no ... abortion is killing. stem cell research is research that can help cure countless diseases. if you dont want the benefit of stem cell research ... fine. but why condemn everyone else with your backwards ethical argument backwards ancient warriors ate the brains of their opponents to gain the enemys knowledge their testicles to get their manhood vigor their legs to get their strength and theirt hearts to get their spirit. since a recent expose showed a huge portion of the stem cell research hjad been faked how sure are you of it just a few post ago you were whiuning about killing in war and now you want to take the stem cells of aborted fetuses killed for no reason except birth control and we cried over hitlers genocide !!!! to save your sorry butt. hypocrite! what in the hell is the hangup with stem cells the baby is dead. there is nothing that can be done about it at that point. its aborted. finished! instead of completely wasting that life ... why not use it to help cure ailments because the baby should not be dead. you are benefitting from the murder of a life an acessory after the fact. i see no difference between extracting stem cells and donating an organ. sure the baby didnt have the choice to donate the stem cells. but that is an abortion argument not stem cell. when did the baby sign over its stem cells i can no longer donate organs because of my health but at one time most of my body was signed over to aid others. i had to sign my permission the baby couldnt. if anything right wingers are the hypocrites here. many right wingers are pro-choice ... but fight stem cell research. that makes no sense. im anti-abortion except in life threatening cases verified by more than one doctor. abortion for the sake of birth control is murder. look whos talking. al queda sheltered and trained by saddam kill 3000 at the wtc and you want stem cells. please dont change the subject. this is not a debate about iraq. its about religion remember only you could tie stem cells and religion to iraq. youre grasping. no you brought up the politics. as for religion your stance is very clear. you do not correctly understand mine but you dont care to either. your loss. agreed but you facts at best are slanted toward the justified killing of innocents . .very liberal. what!! youre spouting non-sense here. you have no idea what my beliefs are concerning abortion. quit changing the subject. yes you made it clear that the life is unimportant the stem cells are all that the life is worth. are you afraid that if stem cell research is approved that people are going to start lining up to abort their babies no theyre doing it already in the name of birth control. cya craig. have a nice l

From : Annonymous

on thu 4 may 2006 225303 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote i havent missed you one bit. ah you really know how to make a guy feel good. .

From : beekeep

on thu 4 may 2006 183656 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote now budd. first off adolf hitler was a catholic. second more people are killed in the name of god than for any other reason. beekeep no greg. hitler was raised in a catholic parochial school his family was lutheran but he renounced all beliefs when he learned about evolution. christianity has only been around for a couple thousand years and you claim it has been the cause of more deaths than all other beliefs and non-beliefs for the millions of years you believe in your math doesnt add up greg. now how many did hirohito kill shintoism stalin communism genghis khan hinduism even when you just use the last 8000 years a figure generally acceptable to christians it still doesnt add up. sorry. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** i said god not christ. beekeep .

From : beekeep

on thu 4 may 2006 174847 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote its on there because the founders of this country believed in a creator. would you rather have in bart simpson we trust i wouldnt. -- budd cochran id rather have nothing at all like t. roosevelt. beekeep .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote the holy bible is more accurate compared to the earliest manuscripts even in the modern translations than those philosophical; works yet it is rejected without being read. accurate are you referring to the references of people known to have existed of course thats a pretty small world the bible refers too. much the same can be said about the other religious books of the world that are in conflict with your own. what is the accuracy of the old testament even smaller world talked about in the old testament. isnt it odd that the bible old and new only reference the known world to the people that wrote it look at how t-bone and theguy treat me if you want a perfect set of examples. while i agree in general you are not free of being rather judgmental yourself. in the history of the nation of israel when they were closest to god they prospered. did they fight wars yes but they prospered. when they turned from god they suffered led to captivity enslaved so on. christians want the same prosperity for this country and for the world. so everyone in the world must become christians for world peace to exist go in peace my friend. i thank you for the intelligent conversation without any name calling or verbal abuse. you are a gentleman and a friend. as ive said. i do respect anyones right to believe as they wish. i will not tell you that you are wrong. only that i dont agree with certain aspects of your belief. .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote and your math still doesnt add up. israel was faithful to jehovah for most of its history and only battled when required. the rest of the time it was peaceful and prosperous. fact does remain that throughout the worlds history more wars have been fought in the name of god than any other reason. each side has had their version of what or who god is and they kill for him. .

From : nosey

now that is really cool. id say its downright cold. -459.7 f. the university of colorado has an excellent interactive learning website that shows you how they did it. http//www.colorado.edu/physics/2000/bec/ at the bottom of the page click the next button to begin. -- ken .

From : Annonymous

on fri 05 may 2006 063345 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote budd cochran wrote and your math still doesnt add up. israel was faithful to jehovah for most of its history and only battled when required. the rest of the time it was peaceful and prosperous. fact does remain that throughout the worlds history more wars have been fought in the name of god than any other reason. each side has had their version of what or who god is and they kill for him. i dont know if that is true or not but it is certainly true that religion has been at the root of a lot of killing on this planet. again i dont think you can necessarily blame religion. i dont know of any religion that advocates murder or death to others even to those of other religions. once people get involved in it though they change it. fanatisicm is more prevelant in religion than anywhere else. again that is the nature of faith. you have to completely commit to something that you dont know is true and that tends to support fundamentalism. fundamentalism has clearly been the most divisive trend in this country more so than any political movement. look at the fundamentalists on this ng. they dont just take offense to what is said they actively seek to find things to take offense about and if it could be their religious fundamentalism well katy bar the door you havve become the enemy. most fundamentalists are not very well educated or very bright either. not trying to cut anyone down here just looking at the demographic facts. .

From : Annonymous

on fri 5 may 2006 124938 -0400 roy roy@home.net wrote on fri 05 may 2006 063345 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote budd cochran wrote and your math still doesnt add up. israel was faithful to jehovah for most of its history and only battled when required. the rest of the time it was peaceful and prosperous. fact does remain that throughout the worlds history more wars have been fought in the name of god than any other reason. each side has had their version of what or who god is and they kill for him. i dont know if that is true or not but it is certainly true that religion has been at the root of a lot of killing on this planet. again i dont think you can necessarily blame religion. i dont know of any religion that advocates murder or death to others even to those of other religions. once people get involved in it though they change it. fanatisicm is more prevelant in religion than anywhere else. again that is the nature of faith. you have to completely commit to something that you dont know is true and that tends to support fundamentalism. fundamentalism has clearly been the most divisive trend in this country more so than any political movement. look at the fundamentalists on this ng. they dont just take offense to what is said they actively seek to find things to take offense about and if it could be their religious fundamentalism well katy bar the door you havve become the enemy. most fundamentalists are not very well educated or very bright either. not trying to cut anyone down here just looking at the demographic facts. you dare to mention facts here vbg roy i know i know. i just violated my own rule! besides the reality is that in here facts shouldnt mean anything. after all we arent trying to really solve anything we are just running around butting heads and pounding our chests. i dont know what i was thinking about. .

From : Annonymous

simple one was blessing american troops the other was saving his neck by following orders and knuckling under to a tyrant. so much for unmoveable faith. why was the abortion done it doesnt matter. this discussion is not about the ethical issues with abortion. it about stem cell research. like it or not abortion is here to stay. what i am trying to get through your thick skull is the fact that abortions are going to be performed regardless ... so why not make something good come from it by possibly extending the life of another human being with cures that will come from stem cell research because the baby should not be dead. you are benefitting from the murder of a life an acessory after the fact. and you are benefitting by the deaths of millions of people that have fought in wars to protect your freedom to hand your mind over to organized religion. you are benefitting you believe by the murder of your lord jesus. whats the difference im anti-abortion except in life threatening cases verified by more than one doctor. abortion for the sake of birth control is murder. ah so then you feel that the life of the mother is worth more than the baby you should careful budd. youre about to say too much ... yes you made it clear that the life is unimportant the stem cells are all that the life is worth. quite the opposite. life is very important to me. thats why i believe that we should use the stem cells instead of throwing them away. i do not advocate that people should abort for the purpose of stem cell research. however throwing away that opportunity to learn more and help millions is just plain wasteful. cya craig. have a nice life. okay budd. bury your head in the sand. thats what most religious fanatics do when they cant hold their ground any longer. craig c. .

From : tbone

simple one was blessing american troops the other was saving his neck by following orders and knuckling under to a tyrant. so much for unmoveable faith. why was the abortion done it doesnt matter. this discussion is not about the ethical issues with abortion. it about stem cell research. like it or not abortion is here to stay. what i am trying to get through your thick skull is the fact that abortions are going to be performed regardless ... so why not make something good come from it by possibly extending the life of another human being with cures that will come from stem cell research because the baby should not be dead. you are benefitting from the murder of a life an acessory after the fact. and you are benefitting by the deaths of millions of people that have fought in wars to protect your freedom to hand your mind over to organized religion. you are benefitting you believe by the murder of your lord jesus. whats the difference im anti-abortion except in life threatening cases verified by more than one doctor. abortion for the sake of birth control is murder. ah so then you feel that the life of the mother is worth more than the baby you should careful budd. youre about to say too much ... yes you made it clear that the life is unimportant the stem cells are all that the life is worth. quite the opposite. life is very important to me. thats why i believe that we should use the stem cells instead of throwing them away. i do not advocate that people should abort for the purpose of stem cell research. however throwing away that opportunity to learn more and help millions is just plain wasteful. cya craig. have a nice life. okay budd. bury your head in the sand. thats what most religious fanatics do when they cant hold their ground any longer. and they wonder why the non religious sectors dont want to listen to them when the decisions are important. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : Annonymous

on fri 05 may 2006 173556 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote theguy@whatever.net wrote i dont think you can necessarily blame religion. i dont know of any religion that advocates murder or death to others even to those of other religions. its not that religion advocates murder. but religion has been the source of disagreement and thus the reason for most of this worlds wars over the past several 1000 years. people will argue that with you but i understand what you are saying. religion is just such a personal thing to people that they can not see it very clearly. you are absolutely right. religion has been at the root of many wars and much death. but it is still important to remember that the basic philosophy the basic creed of any religion does not support war or killing. it is just us human beings that so fuck it up. this opinion is a part of why i take budd seriously enough that i pitch shit on him. he is a great example of the intolerance of fundamentalism that causes not only a lot of pain and hurt to people on this planet but adds to the philosophy that you are so worried about. it is the lack of tolerance and the spirit of of unquestioning faith that will place this country into war once again not only with the middle east but within our own borders. bias has no excuse. it respects no borders and it will destroy a very great country if we allow fundamentalism to have a significant place is our nation. .

From : beekeep

on fri 05 may 2006 142333 gmt theguy@whatever.net wrote on fri 05 may 2006 063345 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote budd cochran wrote and your math still doesnt add up. israel was faithful to jehovah for most of its history and only battled when required. the rest of the time it was peaceful and prosperous. fact does remain that throughout the worlds history more wars have been fought in the name of god than any other reason. each side has had their version of what or who god is and they kill for him. i dont know if that is true or not but it is certainly true that religion has been at the root of a lot of killing on this planet. again i dont think you can necessarily blame religion. i dont know of any religion that advocates murder or death to others even to those of other religions. once people get involved in it though they change it. fanatisicm is more prevelant in religion than anywhere else. again that is the nature of faith. you have to completely commit to something that you dont know is true and that tends to support fundamentalism. fundamentalism has clearly been the most divisive trend in this country more so than any political movement. look at the fundamentalists on this ng. they dont just take offense to what is said they actively seek to find things to take offense about and if it could be their religious fundamentalism well katy bar the door you havve become the enemy. most fundamentalists are not very well educated or very bright either. not trying to cut anyone down here just looking at the demographic facts. and theres the old saying youll never find an atheist in a fox hole. i guess just god fearing people kill people. beekeep .

From : beekeep

on sat 06 may 2006 004623 gmt theguy@whatever.net wrote on fri 05 may 2006 173556 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote theguy@whatever.net wrote i dont think you can necessarily blame religion. i dont know of any religion that advocates murder or death to others even to those of other religions. its not that religion advocates murder. but religion has been the source of disagreement and thus the reason for most of this worlds wars over the past several 1000 years. people will argue that with you but i understand what you are saying. religion is just such a personal thing to people that they can not see it very clearly. you are absolutely right. religion has been at the root of many wars and much death. but it is still important to remember that the basic philosophy the basic creed of any religion does not support war or killing. it is just us human beings that so fuck it up. this opinion is a part of why i take budd seriously enough that i pitch shit on him. he is a great example of the intolerance of fundamentalism that causes not only a lot of pain and hurt to people on this planet but adds to the philosophy that you are so worried about. it is the lack of tolerance and the spirit of of unquestioning faith that will place this country into war once again not only with the middle east but within our own borders. bias has no excuse. it respects no borders and it will destroy a very great country if we allow fundamentalism to have a significant place is our nation. i find it interesting how upset mad and intolerant most religious people get in these discussions and the atheists and agnostics are the ones that act like a religious person was taught to do. god forbid if we object to our schools making our children thank god before eating lunch. im an agnostic married to a catholic girl that goes to church almost every sunday. i accept her faith as part of her life. wether she is a believer or not makes little difference to me. beekeep .

From : miles

beekeep wrote i find it interesting how upset mad and intolerant most religious people get in these discussions and the atheists and agnostics are the ones that act like a religious person was taught to do. god forbid if we object to our schools making our children thank god before eating lunch. i find that as well. it is the very religious people who seem to lose their tempers all too often. those that are not so religious i find far more tolerant of others regardless of their beliefs. .

From : joe

beekeep wrote i find it interesting how upset mad and intolerant most religious people get in these discussions and the atheists and agnostics are the ones that act like a religious person was taught to do. god forbid if we object to our schools making our children thank god before eating lunch. i find that as well. it is the very religious people who seem to lose their tempers all too often. those that are not so religious i find far more tolerant of others regardless of their beliefs. ive seen the opposite. athiests and agnostics losing it over standard stuff that most people believe in just to make their point. remember the guy who wanted in god we trust removed from u.s. currency i guess fanatics will always exist regardless. .

From : miles

joe wrote ive seen the opposite. athiests and agnostics losing it over standard stuff that most people believe in just to make their point. remember the guy who wanted in god we trust removed from u.s. currency i guess fanatics will always exist regardless. true there are fanatics of all kinds. i just find people that are very religious are not the most tolerant of others. .

From : beekeep

on sat 06 may 2006 030336 gmt joe nobody@home.now wrote beekeep wrote i find it interesting how upset mad and intolerant most religious people get in these discussions and the atheists and agnostics are the ones that act like a religious person was taught to do. god forbid if we object to our schools making our children thank god before eating lunch. i find that as well. it is the very religious people who seem to lose their tempers all too often. those that are not so religious i find far more tolerant of others regardless of their beliefs. ive seen the opposite. athiests and agnostics losing it over standard stuff that most people believe in just to make their point. remember the guy who wanted in god we trust removed from u.s. currency i guess fanatics will always exist regardless. although i dont remember him t. roosevelt did have the moto removed. beekeep .

From : beekeep

on thu 04 may 2006 210920 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote budd cochran wrote have you not heard that scientists have changed the speed of light theyve brought it to a complete stop. mere little human beings. now how hard would it be for a truly omnipotent god to a create light already on its way or b speed up light scientists have only slowed the speed of light not stopped it. the amount it was slowed was a fraction of a billionth of a second. that was a test done in the past couple years. but all you seem to ever do is use god to explain what you otherwise cant. civilizations have done that for eternity. however some things that were once credited to the gods have been easily explained by modern science. if you went back in time with todays technology you would appear to people as a god. now that is a scarry thought. beekeep .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

on thu 4 may 2006 174649 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote greg if you could find a book of history geology law theology science prophecy and philosophy verified by hundreds of experts to be more than 99% accurate would you read it i have. it says there is no life on other planets. budd and why didnt you inform our government of this before they spent all those millions building radio telescopes fwiw 500+ years ago most books by the experts stated that the earth was flat. beekeep columbus used the bible to discover the world wasnt flat. where do you think he got the idea from the scientists that built those radio telescopes are among those that reject the bible. ok whats the matter greg if living my beliefs bothers you so much im sorry. if you have questions im happy to answer them but please dont make it sound like christianity is all my fault. its gods. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

budd cochran wrote the holy bible is more accurate compared to the earliest manuscripts even in the modern translations than those philosophical; works yet it is rejected without being read. accurate are you referring to the references of people known to have existed of course thats a pretty small world the bible refers too. much the same can be said about the other religious books of the world that are in conflict with your own. what is the accuracy of the old testament even smaller world talked about in the old testament. isnt it odd that the bible old and new only reference the known world to the people that wrote it if that were true then you would be right but simon greenleaf http//christjesus.us/greenleaf.html set out to prove the historical record of the resurrection to be false and discovered overwhelming evidence of its truth. it takes but one 1 eyewitness to gain a conviction in a criminal court he found 500 traceable verifiable accounts of eyewitnwesses to the resurrection. simon greenleaf was born jewish. old testament authenticity is easy. try the dead sea scrolls for example that contain much of the book of isaiah exactly like the king james version has it but in the original hebrew. did you try any of the links i posted miles youre not going to find secular sites or info readily to verify the bible. that would be like a criminal sending notices of his crimes to the cops. each of those sites has information and will not fill your email box with attempts to convert you. look at how t-bone and theguy treat me if you want a perfect set of examples. while i agree in general you are not free of being rather judgmental yourself. miles i have a yardstick to measure lengths a bucket to measure water and a bible to measure sins. if i hold the sin measuring device up to myself it isnt long enough to cover what ive been forgiven for having done. each of us will be measured by god by that device someday. that is my unshakable belief. in the history of the nation of israel when they were closest to god they prospered. did they fight wars yes but they prospered. when they turned from god they suffered led to captivity enslaved so on. christians want the same prosperity for this country and for the world. so everyone in the world must become christians for world peace to exist i give a brief history and im saying all need to become christians yes and no. yes i would love for all to become christians but im realistic enough to remember we have all been given the choice to become christian or not. i keep finding myself being berated for doing what im called to do christian apologetics defending my faith in a society the brags on its religious freedoms when someone asks in public forum for my opinion. what i feel like doing is telling you all to go to hell when that happens but i do care about this big crazy bunch of pixels on a screen so i try to explain my beliefs the bible and so on. go in peace my friend. i thank you for the intelligent conversation without any name calling or verbal abuse. you are a gentleman and a friend. as ive said. i do respect anyones right to believe as they wish. i will not tell you that you are wrong. only that i dont agree with certain aspects of your belief. that is your choice. someday both of us will find out which is right your way or the bibles way. *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

simple one was blessing american troops the other was saving his neck by following orders and knuckling under to a tyrant. so much for unmoveable faith. why was the abortion done it doesnt matter. this discussion is not about the ethical issues with abortion. it about stem cell research. like it or not abortion is here to stay. what i am trying to get through your thick skull is the fact that abortions are going to be performed regardless ... so why not make something good come from it by possibly extending the life of another human being with cures that will come from stem cell research like it or not i will continue to fight against abortion on demand and our numbers are growing. because the baby should not be dead. you are benefitting from the murder of a life an acessory after the fact. and you are benefitting by the deaths of millions of people that have fought in wars to protect your freedom to hand your mind over to organized religion. you are benefitting you believe by the murder of your lord jesus. whats the difference lots. the ten commandments in the original hebrew says thou shalt not commit murder. the word translated kill means murder and like many languages the commit is implied by context. killing done in war is not murder it is war. is killing in self-defense commiting murder war is self-defense on a massive scale. jesus went to the cross voluntarily to die for the sins of every soul that has ever been or ever will be on this earth. he was killed by the romans after the jewish leaders convicted him in an illegal trial. im anti-abortion except in life threatening cases verified by more than one doctor. abortion for the sake of birth control is murder. ah so then you feel that the life of the mother is worth more than the baby you should careful budd. youre about to say too much ... am i i have had a few of those cases in my family over the years have you genetics plays a big part in it you know and with all the damage to our genetic code over the years were seeing more and more birth defects and more and more women incapable of carrying a child. yes you made it clear that the life is unimportant the stem cells are all that the life is worth. quite the opposite. life is very important to me. thats why i believe that we should use the stem cells instead of throwing them away. i do not advocate that people should abort for the purpose of stem cell research. however throwing away that opportunity to learn more and help millions is just plain wasteful. in your opinion. i see using the cells from a murdered individual the same as willful defacing or damage to an adult corpse. cya craig. have a nice life. okay budd. bury your head in the sand. thats what most religious fanatics do when they cant hold their ground any longer. i see . . .i chose to end the discussion before one of us loses our temper so im burying my head . . .if thats your opinion of my worth as a human having a discussion with you then you think far too highly of yourself and far to little of christians to consider yourself to be equitable in a discussion. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : Annonymous

on sat 06 may 2006 115403 gmt honeybs@radix.net beekeep wrote on thu 4 may 2006 174649 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote greg if you could find a book of history geology law theology science prophecy and philosophy verified by hundreds of experts to be more than 99% accurate would you read it i have. it says there is no life on other planets. budd and why didnt you inform our government of this before they spent all those millions building radio telescopes fwiw 500+ years ago most books by the experts stated that the earth was flat. beekeep lol. yeah crap he could saved us a lot of money and he sure could have saved tom cruise a lot of bad publicity if hes just let them in on this. .

From : joe

@usenet.radix.net on sat 06 may 2006 030336 gmt joe nobody@home.now wrote @fed1read10 beekeep wrote i find it interesting how upset mad and intolerant most religious people get in these discussions and the atheists and agnostics are the ones that act like a religious person was taught to do. god forbid if we object to our schools making our children thank god before eating lunch. i find that as well. it is the very religious people who seem to lose their tempers all too often. those that are not so religious i find far more tolerant of others regardless of their beliefs. ive seen the opposite. athiests and agnostics losing it over standard stuff that most people believe in just to make their point. remember the guy who wanted in god we trust removed from u.s. currency i guess fanatics will always exist regardless. although i dont remember him t. roosevelt did have the moto removed. beekeep in truth roosevelt didnt have it removed. he simply disagreed that it shouldnt be used on coins in a letter to william boldly on 1907-nov-11 he wrote my own feeling in the matter is due to my very firm conviction that to put such a motto on coins or to use it in any kindred manner not only does no good but does positive harm and is in effect irreverence which comes dangerously close to sacrilege...it is a motto which it is indeed well to have inscribed on our great national monuments in our temples of justice in our legislative halls and in building such as those at west point and annapolis -- in short wherever it will tend to arouse and inspire a lofty emotion in those who look thereon. but it seems to me eminently unwise to cheapen such a motto by use on coins just as it would be to cheapen it by use on postage stamps or in advertisements. heres the fact sheet from the u.s. treasury http//tinyurl.com/nxwd6 .

From : Annonymous

on sat 6 may 2006 071753 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on thu 4 may 2006 174649 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote greg if you could find a book of history geology law theology science prophecy and philosophy verified by hundreds of experts to be more than 99% accurate would you read it i have. it says there is no life on other planets. budd and why didnt you inform our government of this before they spent all those millions building radio telescopes fwiw 500+ years ago most books by the experts stated that the earth was flat. beekeep columbus used the bible to discover the world wasnt flat. where do you think he got the idea from the scientists that built those radio telescopes are among those that reject the bible. touch over-breadth here. not that you are not on friendly terms with over generalization.......but this is a load even for you. ok whats the matter greg if living my beliefs bothers you so much im sorry. if you have questions im happy to answer them but please dont make it sound like christianity is all my fault. its gods. not living your beliefs. you can live your beliefs and i think we would all support that. the problem is that you dont live your beleifs. your behavior flies in the face of what you preach..........i believe the accurate word would be hypocracy.............and you tend to talk your beliefs a whole lot and live them not at all. that is what is so ridiculous about you. i see that in a lot of fundamentalists not all but a lot. they like to talk their game..........sort of a moral superiority thing..............then turn around and act much differently to everyone that doesnt immediately accept their moral superiority. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : Annonymous

on sat 6 may 2006 075650 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote simple one was blessing american troops the other was saving his neck by following orders and knuckling under to a tyrant. so much for unmoveable faith. why was the abortion done it doesnt matter. this discussion is not about the ethical issues with abortion. it about stem cell research. like it or not abortion is here to stay. what i am trying to get through your thick skull is the fact that abortions are going to be performed regardless ... so why not make something good come from it by possibly extending the life of another human being with cures that will come from stem cell research like it or not i will continue to fight against abortion on demand and our numbers are growing. because the baby should not be dead. you are benefitting from the murder of a life an acessory after the fact. and you are benefitting by the deaths of millions of people that have fought in wars to protect your freedom to hand your mind over to organized religion. you are benefitting you believe by the murder of your lord jesus. whats the difference lots. the ten commandments in the original hebrew says thou shalt not commit murder. the word translated kill means murder and like many languages the commit is implied by context. killing done in war is not murder it is war. is killing in self-defense commiting murder war is self-defense on a massive scale. now that is an incredible little paragraph. after i got done staring and convincing myslef that you actually had said that i had to copy and pasteit and send it to some friends. youll be proud to know budd that you are now quoted and known in my circles. you are famous. as one guy wrote back where in the world did you find that fucking idiot. you are known as the fucking idiot as several people noted. jesus went to the cross voluntarily to die for the sins of every soul that has ever been or ever will be on this earth. he was killed by the romans after the jewish leaders convicted him in an illegal trial. im anti-abortion except in life threatening cases verified by more than one doctor. abortion for the sake of birth control is murder. ah so then you feel that the life of the mother is worth more than the baby you should careful budd. youre about to say too much ... am i i have had a few of those cases in my family over the years have you genetics plays a big part in it you know and with all the damage to our genetic code over the years were seeing more and more birth defects and more and more women incapable of carrying a child. yes you made it clear that the life is unimportant the stem cells are all that the life is worth. quite the opposite. life is very important to me. thats why i believe that we should use the stem cells instead of throwing them away. i do not advocate that people should abort for the purpose of stem cell research. however throwing away that opportunity to learn more and help millions is just plain wasteful. in your opinion. i see using the cells from a murdered individual the same as willful defacing or damage to an adult corpse. cya craig. have a nice life. okay budd. bury your head in the sand. thats what most religious fanatics do when they cant hold their ground any longer. i see . . .i chose to end the discussion before one of us loses our temper so im burying my head . . .if thats your opinion of my worth as a human having a discussion with you then you think far too highly of yourself and far to little of christians to consider yourself to be equitable in a discussion. .

From : roy

the ten commandments in the original hebrew says thou shalt not commit murder. the word translated kill means murder and like many languages the commit is implied by context. killing done in war is not murder it is war. is killing in self-defense commiting murder war is self-defense on a massive scale. this is by far the most unreal thing ive seen posted here. really im thinking back through the years and this the one. i gotta believe you have finally gone over the edge. roy .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote columbus used the bible to discover the world wasnt flat. where do you think he got the idea from columbus went against the religious zealots in saying the world wasnt flat. others went against the religious folks to say the earth was not the center of the universe and it revolved around the sun. they were punished for going against the church not the other way around. it was the church that was wrong. .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

budd cochran wrote columbus used the bible to discover the world wasnt flat. where do you think he got the idea from columbus went against the religious zealots in saying the world wasnt flat. others went against the religious folks to say the earth was not the center of the universe and it revolved around the sun. they were punished for going against the church not the other way around. it was the church that was wrong. did i deny the church was wrong no. columbus read the bible for himself. he found the world wasnt flat in those pages. thats why im not catholic mormon jehovahs witness seventh day adventist or any other denomination that says they have special interpretation of scriptures. im a non-denominational christian. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : Annonymous

on sat 6 may 2006 115029 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote budd cochran wrote columbus used the bible to discover the world wasnt flat. where do you think he got the idea from columbus went against the religious zealots in saying the world wasnt flat. others went against the religious folks to say the earth was not the center of the universe and it revolved around the sun. they were punished for going against the church not the other way around. it was the church that was wrong. did i deny the church was wrong no. columbus read the bible for himself. he found the world wasnt flat in those pages. thats why im not catholic mormon jehovahs witness seventh day adventist or any other denomination that says they have special interpretation of scriptures. im a non-denominational christian. oh thats what you are i was wondering about that. thanks for letting everyone know beause i thought...........oh never mind. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote if that were true then you would be right but simon greenleaf http//christjesus.us/greenleaf.html set out to prove the historical record of the resurrection to be false and discovered overwhelming evidence of its truth. it takes but one 1 eyewitness to gain a conviction in a criminal court he found 500 traceable verifiable accounts of eyewitnwesses to the resurrection. what year was this how many of those eyewitnesses did he personally interview sorry budd there was nothing ever written contemporary to jesus time. nothing. not one shred of writing has ever been found that was written during jesus time. old testament authenticity is easy. try the dead sea scrolls for example that contain much of the book of isaiah exactly like the king james version has it but in the original hebrew. the stories in the old testament contradict each other. i know youll argue otherwise but its pretty clear. each one tells the same story but with differing facts. did you try any of the links i posted miles youre not going to find secular sites or info readily to verify the bible. kinda makes you and your links a tad biased if you ignore such other sites and their findings. i give a brief history and im saying all need to become christians yes and no. yes i would love for all to become christians but im realistic enough to remember we have all been given the choice to become christian or not. i keep finding myself being berated for doing what im called to do christian apologetics defending my faith in a society the brags on its religious freedoms when someone asks in public forum for my opinion. christianity is not the only religion on this planet. it isnt even the oldest. other religions must constantly defend their religions against christians such as yourself. you get upset that you have to defend your religion when others must defend theirs against you and your beliefs. what i feel like doing is telling you all to go to hell when that happens but i do care about this big crazy bunch of pixels on a screen so i try to explain my beliefs the bible and so on. now that is exactly the point me and others have made. i have never ever told you or any other christian to go to hell or even felt like doing so. it is the religious that all too often are the ones that lack tolerance. that is your choice. someday both of us will find out which is right your way or the bibles way. that is true. unfortunately nobody that does find out has ever been able to tell others that havent yet. .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote the ten commandments in the original hebrew says thou shalt not commit murder. the word translated kill means murder kill and murder do not mean the same thing. that issue has been discussed numerous times throughout society. they simply do not mean the same thing. murder requires intent. kill does not. thats an oversimplified difference but ill leave it to you to research further. .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote columbus read the bible for himself. he found the world wasnt flat in those pages. what passage mentions the world as being round .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

thank you. now did you bother to look up any proof as to my accuracy i did. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams the ten commandments in the original hebrew says thou shalt not commit murder. the word translated kill means murder and like many languages the commit is implied by context. killing done in war is not murder it is war. is killing in self-defense commiting murder war is self-defense on a massive scale. this is by far the most unreal thing ive seen posted here. really im thinking back through the years and this the one. i gotta believe you have finally gone over the edge. roy *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

look up the hebrew word for murder and for kill in the older version of the language and not the current semi-yiddish language. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams budd cochran wrote the ten commandments in the original hebrew says thou shalt not commit murder. the word translated kill means murder kill and murder do not mean the same thing. that issue has been discussed numerous times throughout society. they simply do not mean the same thing. murder requires intent. kill does not. thats an oversimplified difference but ill leave it to you to research further. *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

budd cochran wrote if that were true then you would be right but simon greenleaf http//christjesus.us/greenleaf.html set out to prove the historical record of the resurrection to be false and discovered overwhelming evidence of its truth. it takes but one 1 eyewitness to gain a conviction in a criminal court he found 500 traceable verifiable accounts of eyewitnwesses to the resurrection. what year was this how many of those eyewitnesses did he personally interview sorry budd there was nothing ever written contemporary to jesus time. nothing. not one shred of writing has ever been found that was written during jesus time. yes there was. josephus roman historian and a jew was alive at a time when many eyewitnesses were still alive. he is just one of many sources. look at the sites miles. old testament authenticity is easy. try the dead sea scrolls for example that contain much of the book of isaiah exactly like the king james version has it but in the original hebrew. the stories in the old testament contradict each other. i know youll argue otherwise but its pretty clear. each one tells the same story but with differing facts. no they dont. secular interpretations about them conflict each other. look at the sites. did you try any of the links i posted miles youre not going to find secular sites or info readily to verify the bible. kinda makes you and your links a tad biased if you ignore such other sites and their findings. find one for me miles and ill look at it. ive looked for years in an effort to answer folks like yourself that reject christian sources out of hand simply because they are as you call them biased. i give a brief history and im saying all need to become christians yes and no. yes i would love for all to become christians but im realistic enough to remember we have all been given the choice to become christian or not. i keep finding myself being berated for doing what im called to do christian apologetics defending my faith in a society the brags on its religious freedoms when someone asks in public forum for my opinion. christianity is not the only religion on this planet. it isnt even the oldest. other religions must constantly defend their religions against christians such as yourself. you get upset that you have to defend your religion when others must defend theirs against you and your beliefs. are you saying youre completely happy about this discussion its been made quite clear that it bothers you and others that i a express my faith. the fact i get grilled about it for mentioning it is the evidence b quote scripture the fact that im told how wrong the bible has to be when the provable evidence is to the contrary c that im considereed to be select at least one hateful bigoted an idiot crazy intolerant etc. when i mention my faith. what i feel like doing is telling you all to go to hell when that happens but i do care about this big crazy bunch of pixels on a screen so i try to explain my beliefs the bible and so on. now that is exactly the point me and others have made. i have never ever told you or any other christian to go to hell or even felt like doing so. it is the religious that all too often are the ones that lack tolerance. no that point is never made. points about my supposed intolerance etc. are dumped all over me blame for every war or killing since day one is blamed on the christian faith i believe in but not a single one of you post any links that prove empirically that christianity is false. but some do like the opportunity to call me names ive noticed. that is your choice. someday both of us will find out which is right your way or the bibles way. that is true. unfortunately nobody that does find out has ever been able to tell others that havent yet. my point exactly. except there is the case of jesus. he said there was a heaven and hes preparing a place for those that believe on him. josephus recorded the testimonies of eyewitnesses to that resurrection miles. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : beekeep

thats why im not catholic mormon jehovahs witness seventh day adventist or any other denomination that says they have special interpretation of scriptures. im a non-denominational christian. oh thats what you are i was wondering about that. thanks for letting everyone know beause i thought...........oh never mind. budd the church of whats happening now. beekeep .

From : beekeep

are you saying youre completely happy about this discussion its been made quite clear that it bothers you and others that i the only one that seems to be upset is you. a express my faith. the fact i get grilled about it for mentioning it is the evidence i dont think anyone here cares if you express your beliefs. thats one of our most precious rights as americans. we just dont want people like you being able to cram your beliefs down owr childrens throats in the school systems etc. b quote scripture the fact that im told how wrong the bible has to be when the provable evidence is to the contrary quote away we dont have to read it if we dont want to. c that im considereed to be select at least one hateful bigoted an idiot crazy intolerant etc. when i mention my faith. i always like multiple guesses test so ill pick c its got to be right. in all fairness to you budd it is your attitude when you mention your faith that makes many of us happy that we dont believe like you. its like your religion causes you to be disturbed. are you worried that we wont be there to join you in the hereafter beekeep .

From : Annonymous

on sat 6 may 2006 120759 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote thank you. now did you bother to look up any proof as to my accuracy i did. well.....that clears that up then. .

From : roy

thank you. now did you bother to look up any proof as to my accuracy i did. i read the entire paragraph budd. not just the part in quotes. roy .

From : tbone

none it is called interpretation and can magically bend to fit the facts at hand. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving budd cochran wrote columbus read the bible for himself. he found the world wasnt flat in those pages. what passage mentions the world as being round .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote yes there was. josephus roman historian and a jew was alive at a time when many eyewitnesses were still alive. he is just one of many sources. look at the sites miles. wrong. josephus wasnt even alive during jesus time. josephus is thought to have been born in 37ad and died around 100ad. his jewish antiquities was published in 93ad. while his child years were in israel most of his 20s and 30s were not. his first works were written while he was living in flavian court in rome around 73ad. his other books were written while he was in his 50s. much of his work was just a rewrite of the hebrew bible. yes he could have met with witnesses but then the story is 2nd or 3rd hand . i repeat not one thing was ever written during jesus time about jesus. nor was anything written by anyone who ever met jesus. not one. find one for me miles and ill look at it. ive looked for years in an effort to answer folks like yourself that reject christian sources out of hand simply because they are as you call them biased. so why do you reject any non-christian sources and say they are always wrong they are wrong only because they differ from your own views. some contradictions for you. there are 100s. ya some could be interpretation but so called scholars do not agree on such. some contradictions are not interpretation differences. they are cut and dry dates numbers names that are in blatant contradiction to one another. man was created after the plants. gen.112 26. man was created before the plants. gen.25-9. adam was to die the day he ate the forbidden fruit. gen.217. adam lived 930 years. gen.55. bashemath was a daughter of elon the hittite. gen.2634. bashemath was a daughter of ishmael. gen.363. after aarons death the people journeyed from mt. hor to zalmonah to punon etc. num.3341 42. after aarons death the people journeyed from mosera to gudgodah to jotbath. deut.106 7. david killed goliath. 1 sam.174950. elhanan killed goliath. 2 sam.2119-21. baasha died in the 26tth year of king asas reign. 1 ki.166-8. baasha built a city in the 36th year of king asas reign. 2 chr.161. are you saying youre completely happy about this discussion its been made quite clear that it bothers you and others that i no im not bothered at all. its interesting discussion. do i want or expect you to change your views no way. i fully respect your right to believe as you do. i do not tell you that you are wrong. i only say i disagree and why. part of discussion. but not a single one of you post any links that prove empirically that christianity is false. how can something intangible be proved false my neighbors kid has an invisible friend she plays with and blames for things she did wrong. can you prove this invisible friend isnt real my point exactly. except there is the case of jesus. he said there was a heaven and hes preparing a place for those that believe on him. josephus recorded the testimonies of eyewitnesses to that resurrection miles. you are relying on what people wrote almost 2000 years ago and assuming anything they wrote must be true. doesnt it strike you as odd that despite the birth and life of jesus being such a grand thing that nothing was ever written about him during his time or by anyone who ever met him .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote look up the hebrew word for murder and for kill in the older version of the language and not the current semi-yiddish language. i have from many scholars. here is one historical look at the source of the translation. its conclusion is that kill is the correct translation and does not mean the same thing as murder. quoted from this text viewed from this perspective we may appreciate that the translation thou shalt not kill was not the result of simple ignorance on the side of jerome or the king james english translators. rather it reflects their legitimate determination to reflect accurately the broader range of meanings of the hebrew root. http//www.ucalgary.ca/elsegal/shokel/001102thoushaltnotmurder.html .

From : beekeep

and why didnt you inform our government of this before they spent all those millions building radio telescopes fwiw 500+ years ago most books by the experts stated that the earth was flat. beekeep columbus used the bible to discover the world wasnt flat. where do you think he got the idea from the scientists that built those radio telescopes are among those that reject the bible. ok whats the matter greg if living my beliefs bothers you so much im sorry. if you have questions im happy to answer them but please dont make it sound like christianity is all my fault. its gods. budd i couldnt care less if you believed in hobbits peter pan and little fairies. thats your choice. personally i think that christian mythology and other religions are for those that cant accept that when you die there is no hereafter. beekeep .

From : beekeep

on sat 06 may 2006 110324 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote budd cochran wrote columbus read the bible for himself. he found the world wasnt flat in those pages. what passage mentions the world as being round genesis. on the first day god made a big mud ball and called it earth and it was good. beekeep .

From : Annonymous

like it or not i will continue to fight against abortion on demand and our numbers are growing. fine! fight against abortion all you want. but that still does not answer the question i posed about stem cell research which is a separate issue. here ill post it again for you what i am trying to get through your thick skull is the fact that abortions are going to be performed regardless ... so why not make something good come from it by possibly extending the life of another human being with cures that will come from stem cell research quit avoiding the question. answer honestly ... instead of a total loss of life in the death of the embryo doesnt it make sense to try to make *something* positive come from it the word translated kill means murder and like many languages the commit is implied by context. killing done in war is not murder it is war. is killing in self-defense commiting murder war is self-defense on a massive scale. put any spin you want on it budd. needless death is what i am hoping we can all avoid. abortion is here to stay ... forever. and yes that is needless death but legal nonetheless. stem cell research is illegal! why in the world would that be illegal nothing but good can come from the research. i see using the cells from a murdered individual the same as willful defacing or damage to an adult corpse. but bombing the shit out iraq and killing thousands of innocents is okay. roman soldiers killing your lord is okay. torturing prisoners sometimes to the point of death ... without trial is okay. taking an already doomed embryo and blindly throwing it away after an abortion is more acceptable than painless research that could cure millions. your values are warped. i see . . .i chose to end the discussion before one of us loses our temper im not losing my temper. are you so im burying my head . . .if thats your opinion of my worth as a human having a discussion with you then you think far too highly of yourself and far to little of christians to consider yourself to be equitable in a discussion. first off this has nothing to do with how i view myself. its about how we view life. i dont really care if im popular or unpopular with my view. the end result should be to make the most of every situation including the unfortunate ones. abortion is unfortunate and i personally do not agree with it. however i cannot deny the fact that something positive can come from it if you and your kind would actually think about the subject before taking a stand that may be wrong. ive thought long and hard about stem cell research. so has bill frist republican who professes to be christian with very strong values. hes for stem cell research. how do you explain that i suppose youre going to tell me that his values are not truly christian ... but yours are. right yet you accuse me of thinking too highly of myself and my values. pardon me while i laugh my ass off at your misplaced arrogance. craig c. .

From : beekeep

on sat 06 may 2006 141015 gmt joe nobody@home.now wrote @usenet.radix.net on sat 06 may 2006 030336 gmt joe nobody@home.now wrote @fed1read10 beekeep wrote i find it interesting how upset mad and intolerant most religious people get in these discussions and the atheists and agnostics are the ones that act like a religious person was taught to do. god forbid if we object to our schools making our children thank god before eating lunch. i find that as well. it is the very religious people who seem to lose their tempers all too often. those that are not so religious i find far more tolerant of others regardless of their beliefs. ive seen the opposite. athiests and agnostics losing it over standard stuff that most people believe in just to make their point. remember the guy who wanted in god we trust removed from u.s. currency i guess fanatics will always exist regardless. although i dont remember him t. roosevelt did have the moto removed. beekeep in truth roosevelt didnt have it removed. he simply disagreed that it shouldnt be used on coins in a letter to william boldly on 1907-nov-11 he wrote my own feeling in the matter is due to my very firm conviction that to put such a motto on coins or to use it in any kindred manner not only does no good but does positive harm and is in effect irreverence which comes dangerously close to sacrilege...it is a motto which it is indeed well to have inscribed on our great national monuments in our temples of justice in our legislative halls and in building such as those at west point and annapolis -- in short wherever it will tend to arouse and inspire a lofty emotion in those who look thereon. but it seems to me eminently unwise to cheapen such a motto by use on coins just as it would be to cheapen it by use on postage stamps or in advertisements. heres the fact sheet from the u.s. treasury http//tinyurl.com/nxwd6 he did get it off of the $10 and $20 gold pieces in 1908. congress then passed a law putting it back on. beekeep .

From : Annonymous

on sat 06 may 2006 223819 gmt honeybs@radix.net beekeep wrote are you saying youre completely happy about this discussion its been made quite clear that it bothers you and others that i the only one that seems to be upset is you. a express my faith. the fact i get grilled about it for mentioning it is the evidence i dont think anyone here cares if you express your beliefs. thats one of our most precious rights as americans. we just dont want people like you being able to cram your beliefs down owr childrens throats in the school systems etc. b quote scripture the fact that im told how wrong the bible has to be when the provable evidence is to the contrary quote away we dont have to read it if we dont want to. c that im considereed to be select at least one hateful bigoted an idiot crazy intolerant etc. when i mention my faith. ok. lets see this is hard. bigoted is accurate. an idiot......well that fits to a t. crazy......ill pass on that one. intolerant.......geez i told you this was hard.......that fits to a t too. how about a bigoted idiotic intolerant fool. there thats my pick. it also has nothing to do with your religion. its just who you are. .

From : manny davis

truck but since it is designed for r-134a and i can buy this readily i would like to stick with the right stuff. what country are you located in any advice on stop-leak great for totally destroying many things including; vehicle ac systems recovery and recycling equipment. thanks for any advice advice would be to pay someone with the proper schooling to fix your ac. something tells me that the unasked question is; how do i get the r-134a from the can into the trucks system no . 222 317542 xns97bbcc57abeaanothanksnowherecom@70.168.83.30 honeybs@radix.net beekeep wrote i dont think anyone here cares if you express your beliefs. thats one of our most precious rights as americans. we just dont want people like you being able to cram your beliefs down owr childrens throats in the school systems etc. budd could make exactly the same argument i.e. he may not want someone like you cramming your beliefs down his kids throat. aint democracy grand .

From : Annonymous

on sun 07 may 2006 000402 gmt manny davis none@nowhere.com wrote honeybs@radix.net beekeep wrote i dont think anyone here cares if you express your beliefs. thats one of our most precious rights as americans. we just dont want people like you being able to cram your beliefs down owr childrens throats in the school systems etc. budd could make exactly the same argument i.e. he may not want someone like you cramming your beliefs down his kids throat. aint democracy grand oh boy another country enters and things grow more tense. tune in tomorrow gentlemen ladies and children. will budd respond will the silos go on red alert will many land send troups will many get a clue tune back in. .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

let me have a day or so to check but till then heres a bit of info you may find interesting http//www.eagleforum.org/educate/columbus/columbus.shtml ol chris wasnt the only one to think the world was round. -- budd cochran budd cochran wrote columbus read the bible for himself. he found the world wasnt flat in those pages. what passage mentions the world as being round *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

then why the vicious remarks -- budd cochran and why didnt you inform our government of this before they spent all those millions building radio telescopes fwiw 500+ years ago most books by the experts stated that the earth was flat. beekeep columbus used the bible to discover the world wasnt flat. where do you think he got the idea from the scientists that built those radio telescopes are among those that reject the bible. ok whats the matter greg if living my beliefs bothers you so much im sorry. if you have questions im happy to answer them but please dont make it sound like christianity is all my fault. its gods. budd i couldnt care less if you believed in hobbits peter pan and little fairies. thats your choice. personally i think that christian mythology and other religions are for those that cant accept that when you die there is no hereafter. beekeep *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : Annonymous

on sat 6 may 2006 181258 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote let me have a day or so to check but till then heres a bit of info you may find interesting http//www.eagleforum.org/educate/columbus/columbus.shtml ol chris wasnt the only one to think the world was round. readers digest has a web site that you should find very useful. ol chris man you are old didnt know you were on a first name basis with him. ta ta. .

From : Annonymous

on sat 6 may 2006 181418 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote then why the vicious remarks define vicious please. .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

i have been making that argument. no teaching the evolution religion or the humanist religion in public schools please. and im being called disturbed for it. what does that say about them not much in my book. -- budd cochran honeybs@radix.net beekeep wrote i dont think anyone here cares if you express your beliefs. thats one of our most precious rights as americans. we just dont want people like you being able to cram your beliefs down owr childrens throats in the school systems etc. budd could make exactly the same argument i.e. he may not want someone like you cramming your beliefs down his kids throat. aint democracy grand *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

thank you. now did you bother to look up any proof as to my accuracy i did. i read the entire paragraph budd. not just the part in quotes. roy what paragraph roy the one i wrote or a reference paragraph somewhere-- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

budd cochran wrote yes there was. josephus roman historian and a jew was alive at a time when many eyewitnesses were still alive. he is just one of many sources. look at the sites miles. wrong. josephus wasnt even alive during jesus time. josephus is thought to have been born in 37ad and died around 100ad. his jewish antiquities was published in 93ad. while his child years were in israel most of his 20s and 30s were not. his first works were written while he was living in flavian court in rome around 73ad. his other books were written while he was in his 50s. much of his work was just a rewrite of the hebrew bible. yes he could have met with witnesses but then the story is 2nd or 3rd hand . i repeat not one thing was ever written during jesus time about jesus. nor was anything written by anyone who ever met jesus. not one. no if he interviewed one surviving eyewitness he reports having spoke to more than one then you have your first hand account miles. for him to report it is no different than hearing about a robbery from a reporter that spoke to an eyewitness. btw what is your source for the information about josephus historical records or some anti-christian website find one for me miles and ill look at it. ive looked for years in an effort to answer folks like yourself that reject christian sources out of hand simply because they are as you call them biased. so why do you reject any non-christian sources and say they are always wrong they are wrong only because they differ from your own views. because they dont report anything accurately. its like the eyewitnesses to the resurrection miles some survived he interviewed them and wrote it down. the penalty for lying was death btw. good old lenient roman laws. some contradictions for you. there are 100s. ya some could be interpretation but so called scholars do not agree on such. some contradictions are not interpretation differences. they are cut and dry dates numbers names that are in blatant contradiction to one another. man was created after the plants. gen.112 26. man was created before the plants. gen.25-9. http//www.carm.org/diff/gen1.htm adam was to die the day he ate the forbidden fruit. gen.217. adam lived 930 years. gen.55. there was no death in the garden of eden for the animal life or for humans. when he ate he began dying just like you have been and so hav e i since the moiment we hit our physical peaks. bashemath was a daughter of elon the hittite. gen.2634. bashemath was a daughter of ishmael. gen.363. http//www.rae.org/esauswives.html after aarons death the people journeyed from mt. hor to zalmonah to punon etc. num.3341 42. after aarons death the people journeyed from mosera to gudgodah to jotbath. deut.106 7. http//www.lmdev.com/contradictions.aspid=19 david killed goliath. 1 sam.174950. elhanan killed goliath. 2 sam.2119-21. http//www.carm.org/diff/1sam1750.htm baasha died in the 26tth year of king asas reign. 1 ki.166-8. baasha built a city in the 36th year of king asas reign. 2 chr.161. i need to do a bit of research. are you saying youre completely happy about this discussion its been made quite clear that it bothers you and others that i no im not bothered at all. its interesting discussion. do i want or expect you to change your views no way. i fully respect your right to believe as you do. i do not tell you that you are wrong. i only say i disagree and why. part of discussion. but not a single one of you post any links that prove empirically that christianity is false. how can something intangible be proved false my neighbors kid has an invisible friend she plays with and blames for things she did wrong. can you prove this invisible friend isnt real can you prove god does not exist evolution cant too many gaps. i wish that i could get scientists to do a genetic damage study on that so-called ice-man found in the alps. i believe we would find his genes significantly less damaged than ours. my point exactly. except there is the case of jesus. he said there was a heaven and hes preparing a place for those that believe on him. josephus recorded the testimonies of eyewitnesses to that resurrection miles. you are relying on what people wrote almost 2000 years ago and assuming anything they wrote must be true. doesnt it strike you as odd that despite the birth and life of jesus being such a grand thing that nothing was ever written about him during his time or by anyone who ever met him who wrote the gospels miles they were written by the disciples that walked each day with him. id be suspicious of any anti-religious source that says otherwise. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

are you saying youre completely happy about this discussion its been made quite clear that it bothers you and others that i the only one that seems to be upset is you. a express my faith. the fact i get grilled about it for mentioning it is the evidence i dont think anyone here cares if you express your beliefs. thats one of our most precious rights as americans. we just dont want people like you being able to cram your beliefs down owr childrens throats in the school systems etc. people like me what am i greg b quote scripture the fact that im told how wrong the bible has to be when the provable evidence is to the contrary quote away we dont have to read it if we dont want to. c that im considereed to be select at least one hateful bigoted an idiot crazy intolerant etc. when i mention my faith. i always like multiple guesses test so ill pick c its got to be right. i think i see your problem. in all fairness to you budd it is your attitude when you mention your faith that makes many of us happy that we dont believe like you. its like your religion causes you to be disturbed. are you worried that we wont be there to join you in the hereafter so you like t-bone and the guy considers me to be disturbed... yep i see the problem. i dont follow your values so i am disturbed. ya know the bible talks about how the day will come not long before the anti-christ appears that true believers will be considered to be disturbed insane threats to society. congratulations youre helping fulfill a biblical prophecy. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

budd cochran wrote look up the hebrew word for murder and for kill in the older version of the language and not the current semi-yiddish language. i have from many scholars. here is one historical look at the source of the translation. its conclusion is that kill is the correct translation and does not mean the same thing as murder. quoted from this text viewed from this perspective we may appreciate that the translation thou shalt not kill was not the result of simple ignorance on the side of jerome or the king james english translators. rather it reflects their legitimate determination to reflect accurately the broader range of meanings of the hebrew root. http//www.ucalgary.ca/elsegal/shokel/001102thoushaltnotmurder.html you missed this part miles from the same source indeed kill in english is an all-encompassing verb that covers the taking of life in all forms and for all classes of victims. that kind of generalization is expressed in hebrew through the verb harag. however the verb that appears in the torahs prohibition is a completely different one ratsah which it would seem should be rendered murder. this root refers only to criminal acts of killing. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : Annonymous

on sat 6 may 2006 185104 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote are you saying youre completely happy about this discussion its been made quite clear that it bothers you and others that i the only one that seems to be upset is you. a express my faith. the fact i get grilled about it for mentioning it is the evidence i dont think anyone here cares if you express your beliefs. thats one of our most precious rights as americans. we just dont want people like you being able to cram your beliefs down owr childrens throats in the school systems etc. people like me what am i greg b quote scripture the fact that im told how wrong the bible has to be when the provable evidence is to the contrary quote away we dont have to read it if we dont want to. c that im considereed to be select at least one hateful bigoted an idiot crazy intolerant etc. when i mention my faith. i always like multiple guesses test so ill pick c its got to be right. i think i see your problem. in all fairness to you budd it is your attitude when you mention your faith that makes many of us happy that we dont believe like you. its like your religion causes you to be disturbed. are you worried that we wont be there to join you in the hereafter so you like t-bone and the guy considers me to be disturbed... yep i see the problem. i dont follow your values so i am disturbed. ya know the bible talks about how the day will come not long before the anti-christ appears that true believers will be considered to be disturbed insane threats to society. congratulations youre helping fulfill a biblical prophecy. ok you just stepped off the edge now. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : tbone

those types of lessons are best done in church or perhaps public schools. there is no place for any of it in the public school system. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving i have been making that argument. no teaching the evolution religion or the humanist religion in public schools please. and im being called disturbed for it. what does that say about them not much in my book. -- budd cochran honeybs@radix.net beekeep wrote i dont think anyone here cares if you express your beliefs. thats one of our most precious rights as americans. we just dont want people like you being able to cram your beliefs down owr childrens throats in the school systems etc. budd could make exactly the same argument i.e. he may not want someone like you cramming your beliefs down his kids throat. aint democracy grand *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

like it or not i will continue to fight against abortion on demand and our numbers are growing. fine! fight against abortion all you want. but that still does not answer the question i posed about stem cell research which is a separate issue. here ill post it again for you what i am trying to get through your thick skull is the fact that abortions are going to be performed regardless ... so why not make something good come from it by possibly extending the life of another human being with cures that will come from stem cell research im sorry what part of i will fight against abortion on demand do you not understand as meaning thou shalt not murder defacing any corpse is a criminal act. so to save your butt you want corpses defaced right quit avoiding the question. answer honestly ... instead of a total loss of life in the death of the embryo doesnt it make sense to try to make *something* positive come from it not to me. not to my values and beliefs. the word translated kill means murder and like many languages the commit is implied by context. killing done in war is not murder it is war. is killing in self-defense commiting murder war is self-defense on a massive scale. put any spin you want on it budd. needless death is what i am hoping we can all avoid. abortion is here to stay ... forever. and yes that is needless death but legal nonetheless. stem cell research is illegal! why in the world would that be illegal nothing but good can come from the research. needless death would have been avoided if adam and eve had not eaten of the forbidden fruit. think of it like this your next door neighbor could have been adam and eve. you kids could have married their kids. and your wife would like this no pain in childbirth no infant mortality. i see using the cells from a murdered individual the same as willful defacing or damage to an adult corpse. but bombing the shit out iraq and killing thousands of innocents is okay. that is war not murder and the bible supports killing as part of war. roman soldiers killing your lord is okay. romans doing as ordered by a commander that turned the final choice and decision over to the jewish leaders. torturing prisoners sometimes to the point of death ... without trial is okay. no it is not. taking an already doomed embryo and blindly throwing it away after an abortion is more acceptable than painless research that could cure millions. doomed for what reason is it doomed genetic abberation not a good reason to abort but then ive had experience working with the disadvantaged and seen them teach normals about courage strength and yes intelligence. your values are warped. my values are christian so i am warped deranged what else i see . . .i chose to end the discussion before one of us loses our temper im not losing my temper. are you nope but i am disappointed by you. so im burying my head . . .if thats your opinion of my worth as a human having a discussion with you then you think far too highly of yourself and far to little of christians to consider yourself to be equitable in a discussion. first off this has nothing to do with how i view myself. its about how we view life. i dont really care if im popular or unpopular with my view. nor do i care about how you and others think about me but it sure seems important to you and others to correct my errors in my beliefs and values. the end result should be to make the most of every situation including the unfortunate ones. abortion is unfortunate and i personally do not agree with it. however i cannot deny the fact that something positive can come from it if you and your kind would actually think about the subject before taking a stand that may be wrong. me and my kind . . . . and you want to profit from the unfortunate . . . which of us is doing the evil again ive thought long and hard about stem cell research. so has bill frist republican who professes to be christian with very strong values. hes for stem cell research. how do you explain that i cant and dont try. its between him and his values & god. i suppose youre going to tell me that his values are not truly christian ... but yours are. right yet you accuse me of thinking too highly of myself and my values. pardon me while i laugh my ass off at your misplaced arrogance. sorry to keep you from laughing this time but from the pompous reference to my kind and others i believe youve had enough to laugh about. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : Annonymous

on sat 6 may 2006 185738 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote budd cochran wrote look up the hebrew word for murder and for kill in the older version of the language and not the current semi-yiddish language. i have from many scholars. here is one historical look at the source of the translation. its conclusion is that kill is the correct translation and does not mean the same thing as murder. quoted from this text viewed from this perspective we may appreciate that the translation thou shalt not kill was not the result of simple ignorance on the side of jerome or the king james english translators. rather it reflects their legitimate determination to reflect accurately the broader range of meanings of the hebrew root. http//www.ucalgary.ca/elsegal/shokel/001102thoushaltnotmurder.html you missed this part miles from the same source indeed kill in english is an all-encompassing verb that covers the taking of life in all forms and for all classes of victims. that kind of generalization is expressed in hebrew through the verb harag. however the verb that appears in the torahs prohibition is a completely different one ratsah which it would seem should be rendered murder. this root refers only to criminal acts of killing. budd are you standing on a street corner somewhere with a sandwich board on you as you type this stuff *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

you freaked out liberal idiot join your buddy in the killfile you arent bright enough to notice you called both school systems public. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams those types of lessons are best done in church or perhaps public schools. there is no place for any of it in the public school system. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving i have been making that argument. no teaching the evolution religion or the humanist religion in public schools please. and im being called disturbed for it. what does that say about them not much in my book. -- budd cochran honeybs@radix.net beekeep wrote i dont think anyone here cares if you express your beliefs. thats one of our most precious rights as americans. we just dont want people like you being able to cram your beliefs down owr childrens throats in the school systems etc. budd could make exactly the same argument i.e. he may not want someone like you cramming your beliefs down his kids throat. aint democracy grand *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : Annonymous

on sat 6 may 2006 191608 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote you freaked out liberal idiot join your buddy in the killfile well............that outburst was perfectly ok. very normal. very sane. btw tom i believe that i am now your buddy and that you have joined me in the killfile. in case you didnt know the killfile is where you put people that have been kicking your ass. then they dont exist i guess. at least i think that is the way it is in the last outpost of insanity that exists somewhere inside the mind of budd. you know that place that budd is using to try to keep one foot in the real world. you arent bright enough to notice you called both school systems public. .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote let me have a day or so to check but till then heres a bit of info you may find interesting http//www.eagleforum.org/educate/columbus/columbus.shtml ol chris wasnt the only one to think the world was round. oh thats true. there were many people with differing views from the church at the time. but they had to keep quiet. those that didnt were punished severely. the church was the government and whatever they said was law. thats why separation of church and state is so important. .

From : tbone

excuse me you little child i meant best left to private schools and churches but i believe that you already knew that. there is no room for religious teachings in the public school system because there are too damn many of them and leaving even one of them out would violate someones personal rights. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving you freaked out liberal idiot join your buddy in the killfile you arent bright enough to notice you called both school systems public. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams those types of lessons are best done in church or perhaps public schools. there is no place for any of it in the public school system. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving i have been making that argument. no teaching the evolution religion or the h

From : miles

and im being called disturbed for it. what does that say about them not much in my book. -- budd cochran honeybs@radix.net beekeep wrote i dont think anyone here cares if you express your beliefs. thats one of our most precious rights as americans. we just dont want people like you being able to cram your beliefs down owr childrens throats in the school systems etc. budd could make exactly the same argument i.e. he may not want someone like you cramming your beliefs down his kids throat. aint democracy grand *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : miles

tbone wrote once again. you either prove that you dont know shit or are trying to hide the truth behind smoke and mirrors. you do know what a profit margin is right since they base their profit margin on a percentage markup on the cost of crude the higher the price of crude goes the more they make. selling more has nothing to do with it. i see. so you think their profit margins have gone up what 30% in the past year look again. selling more product has everything to do with it. demand worldwide has skyrocketed. none the less im not on the side of the oil companies. washington needs to get rid of the absurd tax benefits theyve enjoyed for over a decade and bush himself has asked congress to do so. note that these tax benefits were not a bush invention. they existed long before he took office. how much has the price of oil gone up in the past year miles since they claim that there refineries are already near max output reduced production due to the hurricanes and reserves that are above normal how are they selling all that much more. then there are the sudden price increases due to one bullshit excuse or another so dont tell me that their margins are so fixed. they are getting rich over fear paranoia and gouging and our current gubberment will not do a damn thing about it. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote i have been making that argument. no teaching the evolution religion or the humanist religion in public schools please. youre ok with them teaching christianity or for better pc terms intelligent design in schools. there is nothing wrong with teaching evolution based on what we can see physically. in every science class i had where evolution was taught not once did the teacher claim it must be fact. not once did the teacher say this proves intelligent design is wrong. not once did the teacher ever say his teachings were in conflict with religion. he never tried to make that an issue at all. in fact many students were christians and posed questions to the teacher. he said the same thing as i have. we can only look at what we see and draw our own conclusions. he said the concepts may not be exclusive of one another. too much is an unknown on both sides. but it was based on physical evidence to draw our own conclusions upon. not 100% faith on a 2000 year old book written by man. .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote btw what is your source for the information about josephus historical records or some anti-christian website lol of course if it differs from your views it must have been from an anti-christian website. my knowledge comes from reading numerous historical records over the years. i do not frequent any particular website either for or against christianity. because they dont report anything accurately. accurately or per your view is it at all possible some of what your beliefs are may not be 100% accurate fact remains that not one scrap of information was written by anyone during jesus time and nothing by anyone who ever met jesus. for such a huge event as the bible says i find it very odd that nobody wrote a thing about him during his time. the romans wrote about everything else during that time. israel wasnt left out of their writings during that time. baasha died in the 26tth year of king asas reign. 1 ki.166-8. baasha built a city in the 36th year of king asas reign. 2 chr.161. i need to do a bit of research. your links on the other issues were weak. they tried to explain the discrepancies and generally did a poor job of it. there are several christian websites with such explanations. however they themselves differ on how these contradictions can be resolved. it appears to be in the eye of the beholder. people such as yourself refuse to believe there could be contradictions. therefore you go out of your way to find reasons to explain them to suit your beliefs. you believe as you do so you will find reasons to make everything fit the mold. can you prove god does not exist evolution cant too many gaps. can you prove god does exist evolution doesnt try to prove god doesnt exist. it only shows whats found and what it may mean. its up to each individual to decide for themselves. i dont feel most of the idea of evolution or the big bang theory contradicts creationism. i dont reject either one it is you who does. i wish that i could get scientists to do a genetic damage study on that so-called ice-man found in the alps. i believe we would find his genes significantly less damaged than ours. so that person from the alps must have been how old to you who wrote the gospels miles they were written by the disciples that walked each day with him. id be suspicious of any anti-religious source that says otherwise. oh really what years was the bible written how much during jesus time how much in say 1 to 30 years following his death people didnt live much longer. well cept adam and moses. .

From : manny davis

budd cochran wrote you missed this part miles from the same source indeed kill in english is an all-encompassing verb that covers the taking of life in all forms and for all classes of victims. that kind of generalization is expressed in hebrew through the verb harag. however the verb that appears in the torahs prohibition is a completely different one ratsah which it would seem should be rendered murder. this root refers only to criminal acts of killing. yes budd but the article continued per the reasoning for the translation that was done. it concluded the translation was a deliberate thing to show the meaning as intended as being all encompassing and not murder. that statement was to show why the argument exists in the first place. it then showed why your argument is wrong. .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

budd cochran wrote btw what is your source for the information about josephus historical records or some anti-christian website lol of course if it differs from your views it must have been from an anti-christian website. if i believed that why would i have asked if it was or wasnt christian dont make sterotypical assumptions miles. thats the error t-bone and theguy make and arent smart enough to realize it. my knowledge comes from reading numerous historical records over the years. i do not frequent any particular website either for or against christianity. id still like to know so i can verify the sources thats all. because they dont report anything accurately. accurately or per your view first off its not my point of view miles. it is what the bible says on the matter. is it at all possible some of what your beliefs are may not be 100% accurate i am not a perfect christian and dont claim to be one. fact remains that not one scrap of information was written by anyone during jesus time and nothing by anyone who ever met jesus. fact is your source may be in error but you dont want to see it. for such a huge event as the bible says i find it very odd that nobody wrote a thing about him during his time. i dont. the romans wrote about everything else during that time. israel wasnt left out of their writings during that time. it wasnt. rome and the records burned when nero came to power not to mention that a emperor / god could be jealous enough to destroy any records of another god bnefore his time and no one knows for sure except that josephus and one or two others recorded it. baasha died in the 26tth year of king asas reign. 1 ki.166-8. baasha built a city in the 36th year of king asas reign. 2 chr.161. i need to do a bit of research. your links on the other issues were weak. i tried to keep them a little less religous for you. they tried to explain the discrepancies and generally did a poor job of it. no they were accurate from a christian / jewish perspective. there are several christian websites with such explanations. however they themselves differ on how these contradictions can be resolved. it appears to be in the eye of the beholder. people such as yourself refuse to believe there could be contradictions. therefore you go out of your way to find reasons to explain them to suit your beliefs. you believe as you do so you will find reasons to make everything fit the mold. there again the old line people like you rears its bigoted head. can you prove god does not exist evolution cant too many gaps. can you prove god does exist yes but you reject the accuracy of the source. evolution doesnt try to prove god doesnt exist. bull. for example yom the hebrew word for day means only one thing a 24 hour day and that is the word used in genesis for the 6 days of creation. evolution destroys god by claiming millions of years even when current discoveries deny it. it only shows whats found and what it may mean. t-bone and i argued this a word may be interpreted somewhat different from its root meaning but if the root meaning fits the context that is the meaning the writer intended. its up to each individual to decide for themselves. in your opinion. i dont feel most of the idea of evolution or the big bang theory contradicts creationism. oh it does it really does. i do wish you would look at some of those sites especially answers in genesis. they cover this topic very well and with evidence from the secular scientists. i dont reject either one it is you who does. my choice miles. i wish that i could get scientists to do a genetic damage study on that so-called ice-man found in the alps. i believe we would find his genes significantly less damaged than ours. so that person from the alps must have been how old to you lol secular scientists estimate him to be about 4500 years old which according to scripture would have been after noahs flood. who wrote the gospels miles they were written by the disciples that walked each day with him. id be suspicious of any anti-religious source that says otherwise. oh really what years was the bible written how much during jesus time how much in say 1 to 30 years following his death people didnt live much longer. really heres a eye opener for you we heard for years the neanderthal man could not have language jean auels fiction novels emphasise the point in detail . . .then archaeologists found a more complete neanderthal skeleton with a very tiny bone in the area of the throat the hyoid bone required for speech. apes dont have it dogs cats and birds dont have it just humans. ive worked a large amount around very senior citizens 85 years old and above and diet arthritis will reshaped their skeletal structures until they resemble neanderthals. paul was 67 when he was crucified john the beloved

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

budd cochran wrote yep i see the problem. i dont follow your values so i am disturbed. ya know the bible talks about how the day will come not long before the anti-christ appears that true believers will be considered to be disturbed insane threats to society. people have been saying that about religious zealots for centuries and you think its a new thing in our time im sorry im not to take these words doirected at me as being directed at me people have looked at whats been happening around them and molded it to various prophecies and thought the anti-christ has appeared the world is ending for centuries as well. youre just following their lead much the same way. very predictable. im following the prophecies in the scriptures miles. so far they have been 100% accurate. no one else comes close. saying im predictable is another slam at my beliefs and or me sir. i think im done with this conversation thanks to those comments of yours. it has stopped being a discussion. -- budd cochran *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

budd cochran wrote i have been making that argument. no teaching the evolution religion or the humanist religion in public schools please. youre ok with them teaching christianity or for better pc terms intelligent design in schools. if you teach one teach the other is what im saying or teach neither. there is nothing wrong with teaching evolution based on what we can see physically. except there is insufficient evidence. in every science class i had where evolution was taught not once did the teacher claim it must be fact. then why are christian school teachers and group leaders being run out odf and banned from entry into natural history museums not once did the teacher say this proves intelligent design is wrong. not once did the teacher ever say his teachings were in conflict with religion. he never tried to make that an issue at all. in fact many students were christians and posed questions to the teacher. he said the same thing as i have. we can only look at what we see and draw our own conclusions. he said the concepts may not be exclusive of one another. too much is an unknown on both sides. but it was based on physical evidence to draw our own conclusions upon. not 100% faith on a 2000 year old book written by man. heres where you show you true opinions miles. as soon as you denigrate the bible cast it aside as a reference etc. you force everyone to accept scattered and incomplete fossil remains and conjecture by biased scientists. now if thats not forcing a teaching then you need to open your own eyes. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote except there is insufficient evidence. there is not insufficient evidence to show what we have physically found. then why are christian school teachers and group leaders being run out odf and banned from entry into natural history museums are these publicly funded if religion is taught in public schools which religion should be taught in colleges there are many religious classes taught but they are elective and they are taught from a historical viewpoint and only as a concept. heck there are classes on devil worshiping. heres where you show you true opinions miles. as soon as you denigrate the bible cast it aside as a reference etc. you force everyone to accept scattered and incomplete fossil remains and conjecture by biased scientists. and you do the opposite. you cast aside anything that contradicts with your views or you manipulate it to make it fit your views. you attempt to force others to not only believe the same book as you but to further force them to believe it the way you do. now if thats not forcing a teaching then you need to open your own eyes. care to explain your forcefull measure yourself its just the same from the opposite perspective. youre no different but you are a hypocrite. .

From : miles

im following the prophecies in the scriptures miles. so far they have been 100% accurate. no one else comes close. have they been people have thought that various events have matched the prophecies for centuries. it has led them to believe such things as armageddon would occur in their life time and yet they were wrong. this has been the case for 100s and 100s of years. they were not 100% accurate. they only thought that way just as you do. it fit the mold of the time per their beliefs. saying im predictable is another slam at my beliefs and or me sir. no its not. you are predictable because you follow the very same patterns that people have lived for centuries. i think im done with this conversation thanks to those comments of yours. it has stopped being a discussion. rofl. youre a hypocrite budd and you dont like it and wont recognize it in yourself. you have accused me of one thing after another. now you cry foul and cut out. .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote then you admit the proof is lacking. thats what i have said all along which you ignore. i have said repeatedly that what we have found is but a small fraction of whats out there. none the less we do have physical things weve found. all you have is a book written 2000 years ago to go by. i came from where you are. i used to be an evolutionist i used to be against christianity. i know what you are saying because i used to say it also. and that means what youre still the hypocrite that does exactly what you accuse us of just from the opposite viewpoint. now you blatantly call me a name. shame on you. there goes the discussion again. lol youre a hypocrite budd plain and simple. you refuse to recognize what you have done yet accuse us of forcing our views on you. and forcing is when one belief is taught while others are ignore or denied evolution but no creation. see evolution is based on what we can physically see. it is never given as factual. only that whats physically found is presented and various individuals give their take on it. you can not provide anything physical with which to expound your views. only a book. .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote lol of course if it differs from your views it must have been from an anti-christian website. if i believed that why would i have asked if it was or wasnt christian dont make sterotypical assumptions miles. thats the error t-bone and theguy make and arent smart enough to realize it. i havent. you have done it to yourself. you already told me that you do not accept what non-christian sites say and you gave your reasons as to why. id still like to know so i can verify the sources thats all. verify no you mean rip apart to make it all fit into your particular beliefs. you will never ever change your views. you do whatever it takes to make it fit your beliefs. first off its not my point of view miles. it is what the bible says on the matter. bull. it is your view. different people read the bible yet have different beliefs than you. it is not the view of the bible it is your view of the bible. fact remains that not one scrap of information was written by anyone during jesus time and nothing by anyone who ever met jesus. fact is your source may be in error but you dont want to see it. prove that anything was ever written during jesus time by anyone anywhere. i dont. why do you not find such a huge event as the birth and life of christ as told in the bible to never have been recorded by anyone other major events of lesser importance during that time was recorded. it wasnt. rome and the records burned when nero came to power not to mention that a emperor / god could be jealous enough to destroy any records of another god bnefore his time and no one knows for sure except that josephus and one or two others recorded it. thats partly flawed. not all records were destroyed. much of what the romans and others recorded about times before and after christ have been found. you telling me that there are no historical records of anything of the region prior to the burning etc if so you would be wrong. there again the old line people like you rears its bigoted head. you are the one who earlier refered to us in much the same manner with regards to our so called treatment of you. youre being very intolerant and hypocritical. yes but you reject the accuracy of the source. not so. you cant prove it. a book written by man is not proof of fact. there are other religious books in the world. they too say they are the word of god. why do you not believe those books to be of equal fact if they arent fact then youre saying they were just made up by man. hmm...same thing they say about your book. who is the wrong one somebody has to be. bull. for example yom the hebrew word for day means only one thing a 24 hour day and that is the word used in genesis for the 6 days of creation. the day or year didnt exist until the earth and sun were formed. the early churches didnt even know the earth revolved around the sun nor that the earth rotated on its axis. the concept of an hour and why there are 24 hours in a day was not comprehended at the time. evolution destroys god by claiming millions of years even when current discoveries deny it. current discoveries have not shown the earth to be only 6000-8000 years old. not even close. oh it does it really does. i do wish you would look at some of those sites especially answers in genesis. they cover this topic very well and with evidence from the secular scientists. spun to fit the story as told. as i said people will go out of their way to bend what they see to fit what they believe. they will never change what they believe. the most notable is when something major happens some religious group makes a statement about how that event is what the bible talks about. they make it fit because thats their belief. paul was 67 when he was crucified john the beloved died on patmos at age 97. josephus lived iirc till he was 75. yep real short lifetimes. . . that is not old enough to have written anything by someone who met jesus. i ask you again when was the bible written what years jesus died around 36ad although different scholars seem to come up with different years. josephus wasnt even born till 37ad. how much of the bible was written before 100ad thats assuming someone knew jesus late in his life when they were in their 20s and lived into their 80s and wrote some of the bible. im just asking you who lived and met jesus and wrote substantial portions of the bible and in what years did they do so. how old were they when they knew jesus and how old were they when they died .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote of course not that would be politically incorrect but christian tours christian school classes have been run out of natural history museums or told they cannot come back. no it would be on the 6 oclock . . .that would be politially incorrect. . . . . why christian and not any of the worlds many of other religions why do you keep mentioning only christianity .

From : beekeep

on sat 6 may 2006 181418 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote then why the vicious remarks -- budd cochran vicious beekeep .

From : beekeep

on sat 6 may 2006 185104 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote people like me what am i greg well since you asked a christian zealot. not that theres anything wrong with that. so you like t-bone and the guy considers me to be disturbed... yes disturbed as in not a peace or agitated. beekeep .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

vicious. mean spirited not friendly. -- budd cochran on sat 6 may 2006 181418 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote then why the vicious remarks -- budd cochran vicious beekeep *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : beekeep

on sun 7 may 2006 055435 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote vicious. mean spirited not friendly. i know what it means. i didnt think anyone fit the discription. beekeep .

From : beekeep

on sat 6 may 2006 215120 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote budd cochran wrote i have been making that argument. no teaching the evolution religion or the humanist religion in public schools please. youre ok with them teaching christianity or for better pc terms intelligent design in schools. if you teach one teach the other is what im saying or teach neither. but every day they have to stand up and say one nation under god. there is nothing wrong with teaching evolution based on what we can see physically. except there is insufficient evidence. in every science class i had where evolution was taught not once did the teacher claim it must be fact. then why are christian school teachers and group leaders being run out odf and banned from entry into natural history museums the last time i visited the museum i saw no sign saying christians not allowed. not once did the teacher say this proves intelligent design is wrong. not once did the teacher ever say his teachings were in conflict with religion. he never tried to make that an issue at all. in fact many students were christians and posed questions to the teacher. he said the same thing as i have. we can only look at what we see and draw our own conclusions. he said the concepts may not be exclusive of one another. too much is an unknown on both sides. but it was based on physical evidence to draw our own conclusions upon. not 100% faith on a 2000 year old book written by man. heres where you show you true opinions miles. as soon as you denigrate the bible cast it aside as a reference etc. you force everyone to accept scattered and incomplete fossil remains and conjecture by biased scientists. now if thats not forcing a teaching then you need to open your own eyes. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

budd cochran wrote except there is insufficient evidence. there is not insufficient evidence to show what we have physically found. then you admit the proof is lacking. then why are christian school teachers and group leaders being run out odf and banned from entry into natural history museums are these publicly funded if religion is taught in public schools which religion should be taught in colleges there are many religious classes taught but they are elective and they are taught from a historical viewpoint and only as a concept. heck there are classes on devil worshiping. and either they should be ended or other faiths added to the curriculum. heres where you show you true opinions miles. as soon as you denigrate the bible cast it aside as a reference etc. you force everyone to accept scattered and incomplete fossil remains and conjecture by biased scientists. and you do the opposite. you cast aside anything that contradicts with your views or you manipulate it to make it fit your views. you attempt to force others to not only believe the same book as you but to further force them to believe it the way you do. one big difference miles. ive told t-bone and theguy this many times but no seems to have ears to hear. i came from where you are. i used to be an evolutionist i used to be against christianity. i know what you are saying because i used to say it also. now if thats not forcing a teaching then you need to open your own eyes. care to explain your forcefull measure yourself its just the same from the opposite perspective. youre no different but you are a hypocrite. now you blatantly call me a name. shame on you. there goes the discussion again. and forcing is when one belief is taught while others are ignore or denied evolution but no creation. see budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

on sat 6 may 2006 185104 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote people like me what am i greg well since you asked a christian zealot. not that theres anything wrong with that. thank you. i do try to ensure there will be sufficient evidence for a conviction if a law is passed banning christianity so you like t-bone and the guy considers me to be disturbed... yes disturbed as in not a peace or agitated. beekeep greg i am at peace. more so than any time in my life. these discussions are just one of my ministries. i am upset that so many can only call me disturbed or insane or worse because i give answers they dont want to hear. thats why it bothered me to hear you chime in with them. i had thought you better than that friend. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

on sat 6 may 2006 215120 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote budd cochran wrote i have been making that argument. no teaching the evolution religion or the humanist religion in public schools please. youre ok with them teaching christianity or for better pc terms intelligent design in schools. if you teach one teach the other is what im saying or teach neither. but every day they have to stand up and say one nation under god. there is nothing wrong with teaching evolution based on what we can see physically. except there is insufficient evidence. in every science class i had where evolution was taught not once did the teacher claim it must be fact. then why are christian school teachers and group leaders being run out odf and banned from entry into natural history museums the last time i visited the museum i saw no sign saying christians not allowed. of course not that would be politically incorrect but christian tours christian school classes have been run out of natural history museums or told they cannot come back. no it would be on the 6 oclock . . .that would be politially incorrect. . . . . not once did the teacher say this proves intelligent design is wrong. not once did the teacher ever say his teachings were in conflict with religion. he never tried to make that an issue at all. in fact many students were christians and posed questions to the teacher. he said the same thing as i have. we can only look at what we see and draw our own conclusions. he said the concepts may not be exclusive of one another. too much is an unknown on both sides. but it was based on physical evidence to draw our own conclusions upon. not 100% faith on a 2000 year old book written by man. heres where you show you true opinions miles. as soon as you denigrate the bible cast it aside as a reference etc. you force everyone to accept scattered and incomplete fossil remains and conjecture by biased scientists. now if thats not forcing a teaching then you need to open your own eyes. budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote thank you. i do try to ensure there will be sufficient evidence for a conviction if a law is passed banning christianity christianity will never be outlawed in our lifetime at least. why because me and many others who do not share your views will still vote to ensure you can continue to believe as you do. we will continue to fight so that you can worship whatever you choose. .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

budd cochran wrote lol of course if it differs from your views it must have been from an anti-christian website. if i believed that why would i have asked if it was or wasnt christian dont make sterotypical assumptions miles. thats the error t-bone and theguy make and arent smart enough to realize it. i havent. you have done it to yourself. you already told me that you do not accept what non-christian sites say and you gave your reasons as to why. no i said i question the motives of non-christian sites. most have but one purpose to destroy christianity. id still like to know so i can verify the sources thats all. verify no you mean rip apart to make it all fit into your particular beliefs. you will never ever change your views. you do whatever it takes to make it fit your beliefs. no miles verify their intent their accuracy. first off its not my point of view miles. it is what the bible says on the matter. bull. it is your view. different people read the bible yet have different beliefs than you. it is not the view of the bible it is your view of the bible. ok whatever. fact remains that not one scrap of information was written by anyone during jesus time and nothing by anyone who ever met jesus. fact is your source may be in error but you dont want to see it. prove that anything was ever written during jesus time by anyone anywhere. prove none of the disciples wrote / dictated their gospel. i dont. why do you not find such a huge event as the birth and life of christ as told in the bible to never have been recorded by anyone other major events of lesser importance during that time was recorded. it was recorded you reject the record based on some false claim of the historian licved too long after the fact. i give you provable infomation links then dont utilize them... and for your information i do read and evaluate non-christian sites . . . know thy enemy. it wasnt. rome and the records burned when nero came to power not to mention that a emperor / god could be jealous enough to destroy any records of another god bnefore his time and no one knows for sure except that josephus and one or two others recorded it. thats partly flawed. not all records were destroyed. much of what the romans and others recorded about times before and after christ have been found. you telling me that there are no historical records of anything of the region prior to the burning etc if so you would be wrong. im not the one denying the availability of records miles. that is you. there again the old line people like you rears its bigoted head. you are the one who earlier refered to us in much the same manner with regards to our so called treatment of you. youre being very intolerant and hypocritical. i was referring to the way non-christians of all persuasions blame everything on christians in general. yes but you reject the accuracy of the source. not so. you cant prove it. a book written by man is not proof of fact. then a copy of the works of plato written 800- 900 years after his lifetime would be worthless right the manuscripts and copies of manuscripts for the bible were written less than 100 years after the resurrection. which is more likely to be accurate there are other religious books in the world. they too say they are the word of god. why do you not believe those books to be of equal fact if they arent fact then youre saying they were just made up by man. hmm...same thing they say about your book. who is the wrong one somebody has to be. im not talking about them. bull. for example yom the hebrew word for day means only one thing a 24 hour day and that is the word used in genesis for the 6 days of creation. the day or year didnt exist until the earth and sun were formed. limiting the power and abilities of god god is outside of time. in the beginning the earth was without form and void. and god said let there be light. the early churches didnt even know the earth revolved around the sun nor that the earth rotated on its axis. lol miles did the early peoples know the earth was round or not could they also have known the heliocentricity of the solar syatem the concept of an hour and why there are 24 hours in a day was not comprehended at the time. you were there evolution destroys god by claiming millions of years even when current discoveries deny it. current discoveries have not shown the earth to be only 6000-8000 years old. not even close. radiometeric dating has one major flaw; theres too much radioactivity. for the universe to be as old as claimed there couldnt be any radoactivity to speak of. doubt me check out the half-life period of c-14 the archaeological favorite. oh it does it really does. i do wish you would look at some of those sites especially answers in genesis. they cover this topic very well and with evidence from

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

i have a 2001 2500 cummins td with 6-speed manual. a/c worked last fall now it does not. clutch did not engage indicating low pressure. i have the manifold guages and an adapter to tap the can of r-134a. i connected it up and the pressure was low and the same on high and low side. i tried to charge with a can of refrigerant and the clutch on the compressor now engages for very short periods - a few seconds but it does not seem to want to take a charge. * what were the hi and lo pressure readings before you started what was the ambient temperature and what type of fan was installed in front of the condenser while filling the r-134a can is upright - correct * never ever invert the can to shoot liquid in the system it will destroy the compressor do i need to evacuate the system before charging i looked at a vacuum pump pneumatic at harbor freight last week but it had an r-12 connector on it so it did not seem as if that would do much good. * if you buy a vac pump new it does not matter which fitting is on it because you use the fill fitting standard schreader on your guages to evac the system to 500 microns. maybe they rent these at checker auto i have had good luck charging the older r-12 systems with hydrocarbon alcane refrigerants. in this case you do not evacuate the system and you hold the can upside down. i can use the same refrigerant on this truck but since it is designed for r-134a and i can buy this readily i would like to stick with the right stuff. * if you have a leak more than likely it is the o-rings at the connectors between the fire wall and condensor or any place thet are located on the connections. you should have the system evacuated all o-rings replaced and then refilled with the exact r-134a as per mfgr. any advice on stop-leak * not in any life time should you ever use that crap the only thing other than refrigerant used in the system is a refrigerant dye to look for leaks under a black light. thanks for any advice * it sounds like you are just trying to save a buck like all of us however it would be prudent to get some good books and do some serious reading on ac&r especially automotive and it would be advisable to get your epa cert as required by federal law to work on the system. http//experts.about.com/q/auto-air-conditioning-1591/index.htm and http//www.keep-it-kool.com/ good luck charles coasty .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote no miles verify their intent their accuracy. you keep using the word accurate. what does that mean to you factual or not factual prove none of the disciples wrote / dictated their gospel. if they did then they lived to be a few 100 years old at the least. otherwise religious scholars must be wrong and the bible was all written before 100ad or so. it was recorded you reject the record based on some false claim of the historian licved too long after the fact. i give you provable infomation links then dont utilize them... no it wasnt. you have never shown any proof that anything was recorded during jesus time. his birth his life etc. am i wrong fine who exactly wrote anything about jesus between the years 0ad and 36ad when jesus was born and died. im not the one denying the availability of records miles. that is you. no i deny the availability of any records written about jesus during his time. i am still awaiting your proof of such documents. then a copy of the works of plato written 800- 900 years after his lifetime would be worthless right it is that authors views. it cant be taken as fact just because. the manuscripts and copies of manuscripts for the bible were written less than 100 years after the resurrection. scholars have shown time and again that the bible was written in pieces for several 100 years after 36ad. there are other religious books in the world. they too say they are the word of god. why do you not believe those books to be of equal fact if they arent fact then youre saying they were just made up by man. hmm...same thing they say about your book. who is the wrong one somebody has to be. im not talking about them. why not they exist and use your exact same arguments as to their accuracy. why is your accuracy more accurate than theirs the day or year didnt exist until the earth and sun were formed. limiting the power and abilities of god god is outside of time. in the beginning the earth was without form and void. and god said let there be light. what limiting gods powers the people at the time the bible was written did not have any concept of the solar system. they didnt know what a year was. they didnt know what an hour was. now you tell me the hebrew word meant 24 hours the concept of an hour and why there are 24 hours in a day was not comprehended at the time. you were there didnt have to be. the concept of a 24 hour day based on the rotation of the earth was not known at the time the bible was written. the concept of a year based on the earth rotating around the sun was not known at the time. care to prove otherwise radiometeric dating has one major flaw; theres too much radioactivity. for the universe to be as old as claimed there couldnt be any radoactivity to speak of. doubt me check out the half-life period of c-14 the archaeological favorite. its about 5730 years. that figure gives scientists the ability to date things back to about 50000 years ago. they have never used c-14 carbon dating to date just things as dino bones etc. potassium or uranium isotopes are used to date very old things. is it possible that you yourself was unaware of that and made a very wrong assumption that c-14 was the only method hmm.... you dont watch secular do you abc cbs cnn there are the spin experts. on that we agree on. pretty much all media spins the for one of two reasons. to make it fit their biased opinion or to make it sell. josephus was born about a.d. 37 and died about a.d. 101 so he would have been in his 20s when most of the disciples were still alive. he lived in the palestinian region and traveled to rome. he was young enough to have traveled to talked to the disciples and/or eyewitnesses. josephus traveled to rome before he wasnt even 20. he did not return until he was around 50. he died 6 years later. .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote saying im predictable is another slam at my beliefs and or me sir. no its not. you are predictable because you follow the very same patterns that people have lived for centuries. then maybe it no so wrong wrong to live by your views not at all. in accurate just as those that came before you very much so. people for centuries have thought their lives were surrounded by world events that fit the bibles prophecies that have yet to come. they were inaccurate and wrong. rofl. youre a hypocrite budd and you dont like it and wont recognize it in yourself. you have accused me of one thing after another. now you cry foul and cut out. or have i treated you the way you treat me ahhh what you do is fine since others did it first. good grief budd. now youre just being childish. .

From : Annonymous

im sorry what part of i will fight against abortion on demand do you not understand as meaning thou shalt not murder you pick and choose what to define as murder. to me murder is needless death ... including those innocent killed in war. an aborted child is murder in my opinion ... i wouldnt have any part in the killing of an unborn child. however harvesting the stem cells of an embryo aborted by someone else regardless of why can possibly extend the life of another. another way to look at it is this we have the potential to save millions with stem cell research. by throwing away the embryo you are dooming murdering others by ignoring the life saving potential. i prefer to look at it as i have stated in my prior posts. it is unfortunate that the child was aborted ... so why not make something good come from it. if the child is aborted and thrown away its life was meaningless. by harvesting the stem cells its life takes on meaning. get it yet defacing any corpse is a criminal act. so to save your butt you want corpses defaced right defaced if youve ever seen an aborted embryo its quite impossible to deface it any further. and to answer your smartass question no it isnt to save my sorry butt its to save people that need to be saved ... like you. you have already said that you would benefit from stem cell research but your ethics/morals wont allow your mind to get past the abortion issue ... which will never go away. all you can do budd is make the best of a bad situation. you arent doing that. youre turning these embryos into martyrs. and pardon me for saying but we have enough martyrs in this world without you nailing an argueably living lump of tissue to the cross. not to me. not to my values and beliefs. then i maintain that your values are warped. you say you value life but i see you fighting the research that could cure millions. the good of the many outweighs the good of the few. this is the rational behind going to war. so i fail to see the issue with researching a corpse/aborted embryo. needless death would have been avoided if adam and eve had not eaten of the forbidden fruit. okay ... even of that were true we are still here in the present where we have to make the best of a bad situation. living in the past helps no one. my values are christian so i am warped deranged what else i never said you were deranged. i said that your values were warped. which you are proving in this thread alone. nope but i am disappointed by you. theres likely a great many things about everyone that disappoints you .... if they disagree with your values. you seem to lack a ability to look beyond your own arrogance. that disappoints me. nor do i care about how you and others think about me but it sure seems important to you and others to correct my errors in my beliefs and values. truth is budd there is probably a great deal that someone like me could learn from someone like you. i only wish that having a discussion with you was a two way street rather than budds expressway to proper values. me and my kind . . . . your kind meaning people that 1 are hard headed 2 have an overly inflated sense of proper values. values that even you would question if you would think about your position rather than spout the nonsense from your preacher last sunday. and you want to profit from the unfortunate . . . profit no not profit. saving lives is not profiting. which of us is doing the evil again you. i cant and dont try. its between him and his values & god. but his values are the same as yours ... sorry to keep you from laughing this time but from the pompous reference to my kind and others i believe youve had enough to laugh about. look around. between religion and people that think they have the market cornered on values i see people chasing their tails and creating a circus out of life. whats funnier than that craig c. .

From : beekeep

then why are christian school teachers and group leaders being run out odf and banned from entry into natural history museums the last time i visited the museum i saw no sign saying christians not allowed. of course not that would be politically incorrect but christian tours christian school classes have been run out of natural history museums or told they cannot come back. no it would be on the 6 oclock . . .that would be politially incorrect. . . . . the only way that would happen is if they werent behaving themselves in an orderly manner befitting a museum environment. just because they dont agree with something doesnt give them the right to disrupt others that are there. beekeep .

From : beekeep

on sun 7 may 2006 064350 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on sat 6 may 2006 185104 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote people like me what am i greg well since you asked a christian zealot. not that theres anything wrong with that. thank you. i do try to ensure there will be sufficient evidence for a conviction if a law is passed banning christianity so you like t-bone and the guy considers me to be disturbed... yes disturbed as in not a peace or agitated. beekeep greg i am at peace. more so than any time in my life. these discussions are just one of my ministries. i am upset that so many can only call me disturbed or insane or worse because i give answers they dont want to hear. thats why it bothered me to hear you chime in with them. i had thought you better than that friend. budd hey i never said you were looney tunes for your beliefs. to each his own. but just because i dont believe the same as you doesnt preclude me from expressing my opinion and i donr believe that i have been disrespectful about it either. one of my dearest friends is amish. you cant be much more religious than that. i respect his lifestyle and accept his right to live that way. its just not for me. beekeep .

From : tbone

on sat 6 may 2006 215120 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote budd cochran wrote i have been making that argument. no teaching the evolution religion or the humanist religion in public schools please. youre ok with them teaching christianity or for better pc terms intelligent design in schools. if you teach one teach the other is what im saying or teach neither. but every day they have to stand up and say one nation under god. there is nothing wrong with teaching evolution based on what we can see physically. except there is insufficient evidence. in every science class i had where evolution was taught not once did the teacher claim it must be fact. then why are christian school teachers and group leaders being run out odf and banned from entry into natural history museums the last time i visited the museum i saw no sign saying christians not allowed. of course not that would be politically incorrect but christian tours christian school classes have been run out of natural history museums or told they cannot come back. no it would be on the 6 oclock . . ..that would be politially incorrect. . . . . gee i wonder how that could happen. could it possibly be because these christian tours were disruptive. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

im sorry greg but what you were writing was sounding more like t-bone than beekeeper type wording. -- budd cochran on sun 7 may 2006 055435 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote vicious. mean spirited not friendly. i know what it means. i didnt think anyone fit the discription. beekeep *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

ok friend. my apologies. please forgive me. i just told miles im tired and leaving the conversation. i wish you both the best and yes i keep all my friends in my prayers. budd on sun 7 may 2006 064350 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on sat 6 may 2006 185104 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote people like me what am i greg well since you asked a christian zealot. not that theres anything wrong with that. thank you. i do try to ensure there will be sufficient evidence for a conviction if a law is passed banning christianity so you like t-bone and the guy considers me to be disturbed... yes disturbed as in not a peace or agitated. beekeep greg i am at peace. more so than any time in my life. these discussions are just one of my ministries. i am upset that so many can only call me disturbed or insane or worse because i give answers they dont want to hear. thats why it bothered me to hear you chime in with them. i had thought you better than that friend. budd hey i never said you were looney tunes for your beliefs. to each his own. but just because i dont believe the same as you doesnt preclude me from expressing my opinion and i donr believe that i have been disrespectful about it either. one of my dearest friends is amish. you cant be much more religious than that. i respect his lifestyle and accept his right to live that way. its just not for me. beekeep *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

budd cochran wrote no miles verify their intent their accuracy. you keep using the word accurate. what does that mean to you factual or not factual it means what the dictionary says accurate straight to the mark spot on old chap not missing not incorrect factual provcable. prove none of the disciples wrote / dictated their gospel. if they did then they lived to be a few 100 years old at the least. otherwise religious scholars must be wrong and the bible was all written before 100ad or so. many religious scholars are more intent on denying what the scriptures teach than on being factual that is accurate and true to what is in the bible. you really need to read those links but they will disagree with your scholars. then you decide which is the accurate reasoning according to scripture not conjecture. it was recorded you reject the record based on some false claim of the historian liced too long after the fact. i give you provable infomation links then dont utilize them... no it wasnt. you have never shown any proof that anything was recorded during jesus time. the chritian apologetics and research ministry link has most of those answers. www.carm.com his birth his life etc. am i wrong fine who exactly wrote anything about jesus between the years 0ad and 36ad when jesus was born and died. www.carm.com im not the one denying the availability of records miles. that is you. no i deny the availability of any records written about jesus during his time. i am still awaiting your proof of such documents. www.carm.com then a copy of the works of plato written 800- 900 years after his lifetime would be worthless right it is that authors views. it cant be taken as fact just because. huh do you believe the writings of plato to be accurate www.carm.com the manuscripts and copies of manuscripts for the bible were written less than 100 years after the resurrection. scholars have shown time and again that the bible was written in pieces for several 100 years after 36ad. www.carm.com there are other religious books in the world. they too say they are the word of god. why do you not believe those books to be of equal fact if they arent fact then youre saying they were just made up by man. hmm...same thing they say about your book. who is the wrong one somebody has to be. im not talking about them. why not they exist and use your exact same arguments as to their accuracy. why is your accuracy more accurate than theirs because they dont have manuscripts and copies as old as those for the bible. www.carm.com the day or year didnt exist until the earth and sun were formed. limiting the power and abilities of god god is outside of time. in the beginning the earth was without form and void. and god said let there be light. what limiting gods powers the people at the time the bible was written did not have any concept of the solar system. they didnt know what a year was. they didnt know what an hour was. now you tell me the hebrew word meant 24 hours do you not think the hebrews today they are the jews / israelites know their own language the concept of an hour and why there are 24 hours in a day was not comprehended at the time. you were there didnt have to be. the concept of a 24 hour day based on the rotation of the earth was not known at the time the bible was written. the concept of a year based on the earth rotating around the sun was not known at the time. care to prove otherwise http//www.answersingenesis.org/ radiometeric dating has one major flaw; theres too much radioactivity. for the universe to be as old as claimed there couldnt be any radoactivity to speak of. doubt me check out the half-life period of c-14 the archaeological favorite. its about 5730 years. that figure gives scientists the ability to date things back to about 50000 years ago. they have never used c-14 carbon dating to date just things as dino bones etc. potassium or uranium isotopes are used to date very old things. is it possible that you yourself was unaware of that and made a very wrong assumption that c-14 was the only method hmm.... no it gives the ability to make guess back to 10000 years at the most. an the other methods are also as inaccurate and also as dependent on interpretation. http//www.answersingenesis.org/ you dont watch secular do you abc cbs cnn there are the spin experts. on that we agree on. pretty much all media spins the for one of two reasons. to make it fit their biased opinion or to make it sell. agreed. imho the least biased is fox. josephus was born about a.d. 37 and died about a.d. 101 so he would have been in his 20s when most of the disciples were still alive. he lived in the palestinian region and traveled to rome. he was young enough to have traveled to talked to the disciples and/or eyewit

From : Annonymous

on sun 7 may 2006 145133 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote im sorry greg but what you were writing was sounding more like t-bone than beekeeper type wording. yes a very christian thing to say. actually for a born again christian you come across very unchristian like. .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote it means what the dictionary says accurate straight to the mark spot on old chap not missing not incorrect factual provcable. you have proved nothing. your proof is only a book. whatever it says is accurate to you. anything that disputes it is inaccurate to you. no it wasnt. you have never shown any proof that anything was recorded during jesus time. the chritian apologetics and research ministry link has most of those answers. www.carm.com yes there are scores of websites to pick and choose from to find whatever viewpoint you desire. if it goes against your views then it must therefore be inaccurate. his birth his life etc. am i wrong fine who exactly wrote anything about jesus between the years 0ad and 36ad when jesus was born and died. www.carm.com cant you answer budd i asked you. not a website. who wrote about jesus during 0ad and 36ad why not they exist and use your exact same arguments as to their accuracy. why is your accuracy more accurate than theirs because they dont have manuscripts and copies as old as those for the bible. no their religions are often far older than yours. they do have scriptures far older. in fact if you read up on buddhism youll note vast similarities to the stories in it and the stories in the bible written much later. almost as if some parts were plagiarized but names and locations changed but little else. i know youll discredit any such references to that effect because it goes against your views. no it gives the ability to make guess back to 10000 years at the most. an the other methods are also as inaccurate and also as dependent on interpretation. you made the claim about c-14 when that method isnt even used except for more recent dating. other methods arent that accurate i agree but they can distiguish between something 6500 years old and 100000 years. you yourself discredited c-14 because of its short 1/2 life. its 1/2 life is 5730 years. more than accurate enough to tell something is older than 8000 years. agreed. imho the least biased is fox. liberals would say its the most biased. i find that odd since fox has several liberal commentators. cbs has no conservative commentators. .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

im sorry what part of i will fight against abortion on demand do you not understand as meaning thou shalt not murder you pick and choose what to define as murder. no its in the dictionary both english and hebrew. to me murder is needless death ... including those innocent killed in war. an aborted child is murder in my opinion ... i wouldnt have any part in the killing of an unborn child. other than stealing parts of its body . . . . however harvesting the stem cells of an embryo aborted by someone else regardless of why can possibly extend the life of another. not proven. wasnt that korean scientist found to be a blatant liar that just wrote fictional papers to get money another way to look at it is this we have the potential to save millions with stem cell research. by throwing away the embryo you are dooming murdering others by ignoring the life saving potential. nope murder according to the dictionary is a physical direct action to the victim resulting in death. spin harder youre losing credibility fast. i prefer to look at it as i have stated in my prior posts. it is unfortunate that the child was aborted ... so why not make something good come from it. if the child is aborted and thrown away its life was meaningless. by harvesting the stem cells its life takes on meaning. get it yet i got your side a long time ago but you keep telling me im wrong. you want to gain from the murder of an innocent whether you like it or not. you can justify it all you want that dont cut it with me. defacing any corpse is a criminal act. so to save your butt you want corpses defaced right defaced if youve ever seen an aborted embryo its quite impossible to deface it any further. but that makes it yours to steal stem cells from by what law not the law of god which is higher than the u.s.constitution. and to answer your smartass question no it isnt to save my sorry butt its to save people that need to be saved ... like you. i wouldnt take it. hey im one of those crazy fundamental christians with a retirement plan that out of theis world. you have already said that you would benefit from stem cell research but your ethics/morals wont allow your mind to get past the abortion issue ... which will never go away. no i said i had a list of medicalk problems. you said the stem cell research would cure me. are yo a doctor scientist or just a person that is scared of dying all you can do budd is make the best of a bad situation. you arent doing that. youre turning these embryos into martyrs. and pardon me for saying but we have enough martyrs in this world without you nailing an argueably living lump of tissue to the cross. why not you did it. with your greed sins destroying the value of human embryonic life. what do you think jesus died for not to me. not to my values and beliefs. then i maintain that your values are warped. ah more christian bashing. you say you value life but i see you fighting the research that could cure millions. why is there diseases because adam and eve ate from the forbidden fruit. so it is mans fault there is disease death and suffering. the good of the many outweighs the good of the few. oh dear im in deep stuff now . . .youre quoting star trek movies at me. yes craig it is from a fictional movie. this is the rational behind going to war. so i fail to see the issue with researching a corpse/aborted embryo. obviously. and you wont open your eyes to see. truly you are more blind than a blind man for you choose to be so. needless death would have been avoided if adam and eve had not eaten of the forbidden fruit. okay ... even of that were true we are still here in the present where we have to make the best of a bad situation. living in the past helps no one. living in the future is fantasy. your stem cells arent proven yet to do anything. my values are christian so i am warped deranged what else i never said you were deranged. i said that your values were warped. which you are proving in this thread alone. com ci com ca. saying that traditional beliefs that have helped millions find peace fulfillment joy and success in their lives for a couple thousand years are warped is a bit presumptuous of you. nope but i am disappointed by you. theres likely a great many things about everyone that disappoints you ... if they disagree with your values. you seem to lack a ability to look beyond your own arrogance. that disappoints me. no i was disappointed by your falling into the namecalling. it shows lack of conversational skill. nor do i care about how you and others think about me but it sure seems important to you and others to correct my errors in my beliefs and values. truth is budd there is probably a great deal that someone like me could learn from someone like you. i only wish that having a discussion with you was a t

From : Annonymous

ill second that. the most intolerant mean spirited dishonest people i have veern known are all christian. not to say that all are that way ... craig c. .

From : Annonymous

craig@metronet.com craig@metronet.com writes ill second that. the most intolerant mean spirited dishonest people i have veern known are all christian. not to say that all are that way ... examine the church financials. see who among them actually tithe at 10%. my experience is you will find more true practicing christians through that method than any other. .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote i got your side a long time ago but you keep telling me im wrong. you want to gain from the murder of an innocent whether you like it or not. you can justify it all you want that dont cut it with me. hmm. then people should not donate their organs if they were murdered right its a good thing people do not share in your beliefs. say a person gets shot and murdered. thats a sad thing. but good can come from them by donating their organs to help someone else. in your views this would be gaining from the murder of an innocent and therefore be wrong. as i said good thing many people by and large see the good that can come from something bad. no i said i had a list of medicalk problems. you said the stem cell research would cure me. are yo a doctor scientist or just a person that is scared of dying what if you could be cured through stem cells would you automatically rule such a cure out why is there diseases because adam and eve ate from the forbidden fruit. so it is mans fault there is disease death and suffering. no it isnt. its gods fault. it is his choice to inflict all of us with disease because he got pissed at the acts of two. it is his will to inflict what he wants. you feel what people suffer now is justifiable punishment for the acts of adam and eve i would agree with you if your statement were true but what im living teaching etc. is what is in the bible and not something of my creation hterefore it is a one way street gods way not mine. no it is certainly your creation. proof of that is different people have different views yet read the same bible as you. .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

in the denominations ive attended that was confidential information. you better get a court order and even then you shouldnt get it. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams craig@metronet.com craig@metronet.com writes ill second that. the most intolerant mean spirited dishonest people i have veern known are all christian. not to say that all are that way ... examine the church financials. see who among them actually tithe at 10%. my experience is you will find more true practicing christians through that method than any other. *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

and people like yourself are never mean spirited. no way nope never. rotflmbo!!!!!!!!! -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams ill second that. the most intolerant mean spirited dishonest people i have veern known are all christian. not to say that all are that way ... craig c. *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

nope. i always make sure i have with me what i intend to put in the offering plate or i write a check -- budd cochran budd cochran wrote in the denominations ive attended that was confidential information. you better get a court order and even then you shouldnt get it. have you ever made change in church *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : Annonymous

on tue 9 may 2006 050438 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote nope. i always make sure i have with me what i intend to put in the offering plate or i write a check i think you missed the point...........again .

From : nosey

even a christian preacher in the past felt that way when he said religion is a snare and a racket. -charles taze russell i like your christ i do not like your christians. your christians are so unlike your christ. -mahatma gandhi -- ken .

From : Annonymous

and people like yourself are never mean spirited. no way nope never. - you really are something budd. you seem to have a real knack for putting words in peoples mouths. btw i know of more christian child molesters than atheist or agnostic child molesters. more wars and fighting have been started by people with supposed religious values than athiests or agnostics. more people have been killed in the name of god than any atheist or agnostic organization. crusades i suppose you will retort with some unprovable comment like well the people that did those horrible things arent really christians. and ... thats exactly the point. most people that call themselves christian hide behind it and use it as a tool to get what they want and forward their own agenda. do you see why religion and christianity have a bad name organized religion including christianity has failed mankind. even a christian preacher in the past felt that way when he said religion is a snare and a racket. -charles taze russell craig c. .

From : joe

craig@metronet.com craig@metronet.com wrote in and people like yourself are never mean spirited. no way nope never. - you really are something budd. you seem to have a real knack for putting words in peoples mouths. btw i know of more christian child molesters than atheist or agnostic child molesters. more wars and fighting have been started by people with supposed religious values than athiests or agnostics. more people have been killed in the name of god than any atheist or agnostic organization. crusades i suppose you will retort with some unprovable comment like well the people that did those horrible things arent really christians. and ... thats exactly the point. most people that call themselves christian hide behind it and use it as a tool to get what they want and forward their own agenda. do you see why religion and christianity have a bad name organized religion including christianity has failed mankind. even a christian preacher in the past felt that way when he said religion is a snare and a racket. -charles taze russell craig c. guess you could say the same thing about government. .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

no i have a knack for telling people what they wont tell themselves about themselves or what they dont want to admit / hear about themselves. your whole reply isnt in a constructive spirit a cordial spirit or even a humorous spirit nothing but pure mean spiritedness. btw claiming to have more friends that are insert social stereotype than other stereotype or to know more of a insert social stereotype than of other stereotype only tells me one thing about you ... you are hypocritical and bigoted. . . .and you probably dont really know that many but you want to sound like you do. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams and people like yourself are never mean spirited. no way nope never. - you really are something budd. you seem to have a real knack for putting words in peoples mouths. btw i know of more christian child molesters than atheist or agnostic child molesters. more wars and fighting have been started by people with supposed religious values than athiests or agnostics. more people have been killed in the name of god than any atheist or agnostic organization. crusades i suppose you will retort with some unprovable comment like well the people that did those horrible things arent really christians. and ... thats exactly the point. most people that call themselves christian hide behind it and use it as a tool to get what they want and forward their own agenda. do you see why religion and christianity have a bad name organized religion including christianity has failed mankind. even a christian preacher in the past felt that way when he said religion is a snare and a racket. -charles taze russell craig c. *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : Annonymous

your whole reply isnt in a constructive spirit a cordial spirit or even a humorous spirit nothing but pure mean spiritedness. i believe that i have remained calm collected and interested in the debate/issues at hand. ive never been accused of being mean ... but hey to each his own right btw claiming to have more friends that are insert social stereotype than other stereotype or to know more of a insert social stereotype than of other stereotype only tells me one thing about you ... you are hypocritical and bigoted. . . .and you probably dont really know that many but you want to sound like you do. my best friend is a millionaire because of abuse by a catholic priest when he was young. it was proven in a court of law with eye witnesses to the account. i was in the court room during the trial. the church tried to cover it up ... so they ended up having to pay dearly. most if not all wars are fought in the name of god. history book budd ... read it. so go ahead and spout your bs about me not knowing what im talking about. truth is budd i have seen and been on the bad side of christianity. i can tell you many stories of how it has detroyed peoples lives. in fact i had to rebuild my own life thanks to a group of assholes that had your precious christian values. if you want to talk detail budd i can talk details. but i dont think thats what you want ... and what i dont want is yet another blind fool making excuses for an organization of men that has failed mankind with their talks of god good values and the proper way to live when they cant even follow their own rules. craig c. .

From : tbone

no i have a knack for telling people what they wont tell themselves about themselves or what they dont want to admit / hear about themselves. to bad that ability fails completely when it comes to yourself. your whole reply isnt in a constructive spirit a cordial spirit or even a humorous spirit nothing but pure mean spiritedness. and yours differs how btw claiming to have more friends that are insert social stereotype than other stereotype or to know more of a insert social stereotype than of other stereotype only tells me one thing about you ... you are hypocritical and bigoted. . . .and you probably dont really know that many but you want to sound like you do. or maybe because it is the truth. statistics are what they are even if you dont like what they have to say. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : Annonymous

on tue 9 may 2006 115643 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote no i have a knack for telling people what they wont tell themselves about themselves or what they dont want to admit / hear about themselves. your whole reply isnt in a constructive spirit a cordial spirit or even a humorous spirit nothing but pure mean spiritedness. btw claiming to have more friends that are insert social stereotype than other stereotype or to know more of a insert social stereotype than of other stereotype only tells me one thing about you ... you are hypocritical and bigoted. . . .and you probably dont really know that many but you want to sound like you do. im not sure that i have ever read anything here more delusional. .

From : beekeep

on tue 09 may 2006 193644 gmt tbone tbonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote no i have a knack for telling people what they wont tell themselves about themselves or what they dont want to admit / hear about themselves. to bad that ability fails completely when it comes to yourself. your whole reply isnt in a constructive spirit a cordial spirit or even a humorous spirit nothing but pure mean spiritedness. and yours differs how btw claiming to have more friends that are insert social stereotype than other stereotype or to know more of a insert social stereotype than of other stereotype only tells me one thing about you ... you are hypocritical and bigoted. . . .and you probably dont really know that many but you want to sound like you do. or maybe because it is the truth. statistics are what they are even if you dont like what they have to say. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving you just couldnt stay out of it could you t-bone beekeep .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

your whole reply isnt in a constructive spirit a cordial spirit or even a humorous spirit nothing but pure mean spiritedness. i believe that i have remained calm collected and interested in the debate/issues at hand. ive never been accused of being mean ... but hey to each his own right calm . . .maybe . . .i cant see you thru the screen. mean a person mentions his beliefs and you begin tearing them apart. . . ..you do the math. btw claiming to have more friends that are insert social stereotype than other stereotype or to know more of a insert social stereotype than of other stereotype only tells me one thing about you ... you are hypocritical and bigoted. . . .and you probably dont really know that many but you want to sound like you do. my best friend is a millionaire because of abuse by a catholic priest when he was young. it was proven in a court of law with eye witnesses to the account. i was in the court room during the trial. the church tried to cover it up ... so they ended up having to pay dearly. so one priest out of how many yes ive heard all the claims too and i wonder how many are actually made up charges to milk millions from the catholic church. the point you cant judge the entire christian faith on the errors of a few because as long as humans run any denomination they will be humans and therefore fallible. are you not fallible most if not all wars are fought in the name of god. history book budd ... read it. what name they were fought under matters why wtc was destroyed by people who worship a god other than the god of israel. thgats right if you would look at christian sources youd find out allah is not jehovah. so dont lump all wars fought for all kinds of gods under one heading jehovah. so go ahead and spout your bs about me not knowing what im talking about. truth is budd i have seen and been on the bad side of christianity. so congratulations youre a fine example of the lack of moral values of non-believers with your mean spirited commentary on my beliefs. tolerance not from non-believers thats for sure. i get less flack from non-christian believers than from agnostics and atheists in reality. i can tell you many stories of how it has detroyed peoples lives. in fact i had to rebuild my own life thanks to a group of assholes that had your precious christian values. and what group was that not all groups claiming to be christian really are. the jehovah witnesses deny the diety of christ the mormons demote him to being one of many gods so maybe the group wasnt really christian yet even if it was it still is run by . . . drum roll please humans. if you want to talk detail budd i can talk details. but i dont think thats what you want ... and what i dont want is yet another blind fool making excuses for an organization of men that has failed mankind with their talks of god good values and the proper way to live when they cant even follow their own rules. what i want is to be free to live as i believe god wants me to to be able mention a portion of that belief without clowns like you t-bone and theguy acting like im deranged anti-social and ripping into christianity to destroy it. you want a shock when you folks do that to me or any christian youre fulfilling a 2000 year old prophecy concerning the end of the world that in the latter days before the coming of the anti-christ to be a believer would mean ridicule and attacks from non-believers. hey youre just doing satans will ya see not gods. now let it go ok you caused your trouble youve insulted me and affronted my beliefs so what more do you want blood christ shed it for you. christianity made illegal itll happen soon enough. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

greg hes in my killfile. he has nothing to say i want to hear. -- budd cochran on tue 09 may 2006 193644 gmt tbone tbonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote no i have a knack for telling people what they wont tell themselves about themselves or what they dont want to admit / hear about themselves. to bad that ability fails completely when it comes to yourself. your whole reply isnt in a constructive spirit a cordial spirit or even a humorous spirit nothing but pure mean spiritedness. and yours differs how btw claiming to have more friends that are insert social stereotype than other stereotype or to know more of a insert social stereotype than of other stereotype only tells me one thing about you ... you are hypocritical and bigoted. . . .and you probably dont really know that many but you want to sound like you do. or maybe because it is the truth. statistics are what they are even if you dont like what they have to say. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving you just couldnt stay out of it could you t-bone beekeep *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : tbone

on tue 09 may 2006 193644 gmt tbone tbonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote no i have a knack for telling people what they wont tell themselves about themselves or what they dont want to admit / hear about themselves. to bad that ability fails completely when it comes to yourself. your whole reply isnt in a constructive spirit a cordial spirit or even a humorous spirit nothing but pure mean spiritedness. and yours differs how btw claiming to have more friends that are insert social stereotype than other stereotype or to know more of a insert social stereotype than of other stereotype only tells me one thing about you ... you are hypocritical and bigoted. . . .and you probably dont really know that many but you want to sound like you do. or maybe because it is the truth. statistics are what they are even if you dont like what they have to say. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving you just couldnt stay out of it could you t-bone and apparently neither can you. i didnt say anything inflammatory and he killfiled me anyway so what is the harm. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : Annonymous

budd cochran wrote mean a person mentions his beliefs and you begin tearing them apart. . . .you do the math. i guess i didnt realize that disagreeing/challenging your overly conservative beliefs was tearing them apart. its a discussion budd. if you cant deal with it quit responding. the point yes the point which you completely missed. my original statement was ive known more child molesters that were christian than agnostic or atheist. to which you responded that i didnt know what i was taking about. i do know what im talking about ive personally seen peoples lives destroyed by christianity and its leaders. now then care to take back your original comments are you not fallible yes ... but i certainly dont molest children. nor do i pocket countless millions from the collection plate and then hide behind the vail of fine christian morals/values. so dont lump all wars fought for all kinds of gods under one heading jehovah. religion is religion. period. all man created ... and all man run. so congratulations youre a fine example of the lack of moral values of non-believers with your mean spirited commentary on my beliefs. id stack my morals against yours anyday. tolerance dont even talk about tolerance. pot. kettle. black. besides i have close family that are very religious. we have engaged in countless discussions ... you cant handle one! who is intolerant what i want is to be free to live as i believe god wants me to to be able mention a portion of that belief without clowns like you t-bone and theguy acting like im deranged anti-social and ripping into christianity to destroy it. you can mention it all you want. dont expect people to accept it blindly just because you have. you want a shock when you folks do that to me or any christian youre fulfilling a 2000 year old prophecy concerning the end of the world that in the latter days before the coming of the anti-christ to be a believer would mean ridicule and attacks from non-believers. whatever. poor budd ... you make a great martyr. perhaps you should build a cross and nail yourself to it for all the non-believers to see. now let it go ok you caused your trouble youve insulted me and affronted my beliefs so what more do you want blood christ shed it for you. christianity made illegal itll happen soon enough. nope ... i just want the freedom to disagree without intolerant contol freaks like you accusing me of fulfilling 2000 year old prophecy. go to church give your money molest the children ... whatever else your christian values allow you to get away with. just dont expect people to take you at your word. why because again religion including christianity has failed man. you cant deny it. craig c. .

From : Annonymous

budd cochran wrote mean a person mentions his beliefs and you begin tearing them apart. . . .you do the math. i guess i didnt realize that disagreeing/challenging your overly conservative beliefs was tearing them apart. its a discussion budd. if you cant deal with it quit responding. the point yes the point which you completely missed. my original statement was ive known more child molesters that were christian than agnostic or atheist. to which you responded that i didnt know what i was taking about. i do know what im talking about ive personally seen peoples lives destroyed by christianity and its leaders. now then care to take back your original comments are you not fallible yes ... but i certainly dont molest children. nor do i pocket countless millions from the collection plate and then hide behind the vail of fine christian morals/values. so dont lump all wars fought for all kinds of gods under one heading jehovah. religion is religion. period. all man created ... and all man run. so congratulations youre a fine example of the lack of moral values of non-believers with your mean spirited commentary on my beliefs. id stack my morals against yours anyday. tolerance dont even talk about tolerance. pot. kettle. black. besides i have close family that are very religious. we have engaged in countless discussions ... you cant handle one! who is intolerant what i want is to be free to live as i believe god wants me to to be able mention a portion of that belief without clowns like you t-bone and theguy acting like im deranged anti-social and ripping into christianity to destroy it. you can mention it all you want. dont expect people to accept it blindly just because you have. you want a shock when you folks do that to me or any christian youre fulfilling a 2000 year old prophecy concerning the end of the world that in the latter days before the coming of the anti-christ to be a believer would mean ridicule and attacks from non-believers. whatever. poor budd ... you make a great martyr. perhaps you should build a cross and nail yourself to it for all the non-believers to see. now let it go ok you caused your trouble youve insulted me and affronted my beliefs so what more do you want blood christ shed it for you. christianity made illegal itll happen soon enough. nope ... i just want the freedom to disagree without intolerant contol freaks like you accusing me of fulfilling 2000 year old prophecy. go to church give your money molest the children ... whatever else your christian values allow you to get away with. just dont expect people to take you at your word. why because again religion including christianity has failed man. you cant deny it. craig c. .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote mean a person mentions his beliefs and you begin tearing them apart. . . .you do the math. budd you have done that exact same thing with most everyone here who has expressed their views in difference to your own. you rip them apart. stop being a hypocrite. so one priest out of how many yes ive heard all the claims too and i wonder how many are actually made up charges to milk millions from the catholic church. i think it is a rather well known problem thats undeniable. the church wants to bury the issue and not take it seriously enough. what name they were fought under matters why wtc was destroyed by people who worship a god other than the god of israel. thgats right if you would look at christian sources youd find out allah is not jehovah. the crusades were committed by who again .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

some may remember a few weeks ago a 98 isuzu amigo with ruptured coolant hose and temperature gage in the red line for an unknown time. well i finally pulled the cylinder head - block and head are well within warpage limits but when i pulled the head i saw a lot of carbon on the pistons that is mostly soft - my finger nail easily removed a test swath. comments requested on cleaning the pistons in the block do you think its ok to rotate the pistons to tdc and use a soft bristle brush to clean the carbon and vacuum out any debris. also some cylinder head gasket material fell into the head mounting bolt holes along with some engine oil. i was thinking of using a turkey baster to remove the material and/or putting some kind of oil filters on my shop vac to remove the debris before running a tap to ensure the threads are clean. any ideas im sure the regulars will respond with sound advice and thank you in advance but dont want to name names lest i forget a significant contributor. . 222 317753 44615d48$0$29381$88260bb3@free.tera.com budd cochran wrote mean a person mentions his beliefs and you begin tearing them apart. . . .you do the math. budd you have done that exact same thing with most everyone here who has expressed their views in difference to your own. you rip them apart. stop being a hypocrite. if you get hit do you not hit back its funny how i can offer a link to correct a misconception about christianity answer a question about it give a christian viewpoint and all of a sudden im trying to force my beliefs on everyone else. no its not funny at all but it does show who has the mean spiritedness. so one priest out of how many yes ive heard all the claims too and i wonder how many are actually made up charges to milk millions from the catholic church. i think it is a rather well known problem thats undeniable. the church wants to bury the issue and not take it seriously enough. the catholic church doesnt represent all of the true christian faiths nor do all christians want to sweep their sins under the carpet not that it matters to you or t-bone theguy craig . . . . .accuracy as weve noticed concerning the scriptures doesnt matter to you. what name they were fought under matters why wtc was destroyed by people who worship a god other than the god of israel. thgats right if you would look at christian sources youd find out allah is not jehovah. the crusades were committed by who again rotflmbo!!!! just cant open your mind to the fact that christians have not been the cause of all the worlds ills can you now all of you can just shove this thread any where you like or go argue with yourselves i dont care. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote if you get hit do you not hit back ahh yes the ever popular excuse he hit first. its funny how i can offer a link to correct a misconception about christianity answer a question about it give a christian viewpoint and all of a sudden im trying to force my beliefs on everyone else. you dont do any such thing. you tell us why were all wrong and you are right about everything. you do not discuss. you preach. the crusades were committed by who again rotflmbo!!!! just cant open your mind to the fact that christians have not been the cause of all the worlds ills can you they arent but i dont try to say theyre a cure for the worlds ills either. now all of you can just shove this thread any where you like or go argue with yourselves i dont care. oh now what was very mature and christian of you!! good grief. .

From : beekeep

on tue 9 may 2006 222331 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote budd cochran wrote mean a person mentions his beliefs and you begin tearing them apart. . . .you do the math. budd you have done that exact same thing with most everyone here who has expressed their views in difference to your own. you rip them apart. stop being a hypocrite. if you get hit do you not hit back and i thiought the bible said turn the other cheek. silly me. beekeep .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote thankfully miles i do not need your approval for anything. and you prove my point most excellently. who the heck ever said you needed permission i just wish you would look in a mirror at times. you refuse to see your own hypocrisy. everyone is ganging up on you and poor budd is just innocently defending himself and beliefs right .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote it does but one soon runs out of cheeks. in your case that was pretty much instantly. ready to attack at a seconds notice if anyone says they dont believe the way you do. .

From : Annonymous

susie@fsvmail.neton wed 10 may 2006 072649 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote youre one to talk with your responses if i mention christianity in any manner. miles dont become another t-bone or theguy please. i do value you as a friend. geez. here we go again with the please be my friend dont you want to be my friend thing again. how degrading. .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

thankfully miles i do not need your approval for anything. and you prove my point most excellently. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams budd cochran wrote if you get hit do you not hit back ahh yes the ever popular excuse he hit first. its funny how i can offer a link to correct a misconception about christianity answer a question about it give a christian viewpoint and all of a sudden im trying to force my beliefs on everyone else. you dont do any such thing. you tell us why were all wrong and you are right about everything. you do not discuss. you preach. the crusades were committed by who again rotflmbo!!!! just cant open your mind to the fact that christians have not been the cause of all the worlds ills can you they arent but i dont try to say theyre a cure for the worlds ills either. now all of you can just shove this thread any where you like or go argue with yourselves i dont care. oh now what was very mature and christian of you!! good grief. *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

it does but one soon runs out of cheeks. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams on tue 9 may 2006 222331 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote budd cochran wrote mean a person mentions his beliefs and you begin tearing them apart. . . .you do the math. budd you have done that exact same thing with most everyone here who has expressed their views in difference to your own. you rip them apart. stop being a hypocrite. if you get hit do you not hit back and i thiought the bible said turn the other cheek. silly me. beekeep *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

btw since when was it declared illegal or whatever for christians to be human beings to have emotions to react as a human would you all demand of christians what you wont ask of yourselves that is to take abuse and insult without reaction. dont lie about it ive been in this group longer than many of you. ive seen you in action ... that is reaction. terribly hypocritical of you. the failure to hold a discussion lies with those that turn it into a witch hunt because they are incapable of discerning or unwilling to discern intentions and call it preaching. those that do not or worse refuse to accept sources for answers. i am not a walking christian encyclopedia. i dont claim to be one. if i were to ask a question of you that you did not know the answer to you would refer me to a source for the answer. what if i dont want to use a haynes source because the comb their hair funny miles rejecting the sources i gave to answer your questions is no different. my answer is located at those sources use them. i havent begun to preach and out of respect for other beliefs i have restrained the desire to. youll call me a liar im sure but it only proves my point further. and that is why i want out of this discussion. however every time you insist on an answer you in a very intolerant manner drag me back in. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams budd cochran wrote if you get hit do you not hit back ahh yes the ever popular excuse he hit first. its funny how i can offer a link to correct a misconception about christianity answer a question about it give a christian viewpoint and all of a sudden im trying to force my beliefs on everyone else. you dont do any such thing. you tell us why were all wrong and you are right about everything. you do not discuss. you preach. the crusades were committed by who again rotflmbo!!!! just cant open your mind to the fact that christians have not been the cause of all the worlds ills can you they arent but i dont try to say theyre a cure for the worlds ills either. now all of you can just shove this thread any where you like or go argue with yourselves i dont care. oh now what was very mature and christian of you!! good grief. *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote btw since when was it declared illegal or whatever for christians to be human beings to have emotions to react as a human would you all demand of christians what you wont ask of yourselves that is to take abuse and insult without reaction. dont lie about it ive been in this group longer than many of you. ive seen you in action ... that is reaction. we do no such thing budd. it was you you said how we need to put god back in our lives and how that would lead to peace and all sorts of wonderful things. youre the reason why that may not be such a good idea. youre not all peace loving and friendly. yes youre human and you react the same if not more passionately about your views. so much so that it does not lead to anything but what you are now complaining about. you have not shown how your ways are more peaceful. .

From : tbone

lol hey budd you could always kill file him as well. if you killfile everyone that disagrees with you or that you claim attacks you it wont be long before you wouldnt see any posts at all lol!!! -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving btw since when was it declared illegal or whatever for christians to be human beings to have emotions to react as a human would you all demand of christians what you wont ask of yourselves that is to take abuse and insult without reaction. dont lie about it ive been in this group longer than many of you. ive seen you in action ... that is reaction. terribly hypocritical of you. the failure to hold a discussion lies with those that turn it into a witch hunt because they are incapable of discerning or unwilling to discern intentions and call it preaching. those that do not or worse refuse to accept sources for answers. i am not a walking christian encyclopedia. i dont claim to be one. if i were to ask a question of you that you did not know the answer to you would refer me to a source for the answer. what if i dont want to use a haynes source because the comb their hair funny miles rejecting the sources i gave to answer your questions is no different. my answer is located at those sources use them. i havent begun to preach and out of respect for other beliefs i have restrained the desire to. youll call me a liar im sure but it only proves my point further. and that is why i want out of this discussion. however every time you insist on an answer you in a very intolerant manner drag me back in. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams budd cochran wrote if you get hit do you not hit back ahh yes the ever popular excuse he hit first. its funny how i can offer a link to correct a misconception about christianity answer a question about it give a christian viewpoint and all of a sudden im trying to force my beliefs on everyone else. you dont do any such thing. you tell us why were all wrong and you are right about everything. you do not discuss. you preach. the crusades were committed by who again rotflmbo!!!! just cant open your mind to the fact that christians have not been the cause of all the worlds ills can you they arent but i dont try to say theyre a cure for the worlds ills either. now all of you can just shove this thread any where you like or go argue with yourselves i dont care. oh now what was very mature and christian of you!! good grief. *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

no your bigotry is showing miles. i simply pointed out the decline in moral values in america coincided with the removal of references to god from classrooms government buildings and so on. you guys turned it the christian witch hunt. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams budd cochran wrote btw since when was it declared illegal or whatever for christians to be human beings to have emotions to react as a human would you all demand of christians what you wont ask of yourselves that is to take abuse and insult without reaction. dont lie about it ive been in this group longer than many of you. ive seen you in action ... that is reaction. we do no such thing budd. it was you you said how we need to put god back in our lives and how that would lead to peace and all sorts of wonderful things. youre the reason why that may not be such a good idea. youre not all peace loving and friendly. yes youre human and you react the same if not more passionately about your views. so much so that it does not lead to anything but what you are now complaining about. you have not shown how your ways are more peaceful. *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

youre one to talk with your responses if i mention christianity in any manner. miles dont become another t-bone or theguy please. i do value you as a friend. -- budd cochran budd cochran wrote it does but one soon runs out of cheeks. in your case that was pretty much instantly. ready to attack at a seconds notice if anyone says they dont believe the way you do. *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : roy

no your bigotry is showing miles. i simply pointed out the decline in moral values in america coincided with the removal of references to god from classrooms government buildings and so on. budd your first post to this thread you asked a question. who killed god and / or kicked him and his values out of society you guys turned it the christian witch hunt. from there you took it to a christian crusade. which imo was and is your intent. roy .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote and the intent was to show the coincidence between the two. im sorry you couldnt understand that roy. for just what purpose to pass blame perhaps surely it was for a very calculated reason. your inference was noted wrong but noted. .

From : beekeep

on wed 10 may 2006 101340 -0400 roy roy@home.net wrote no your bigotry is showing miles. i simply pointed out the decline in moral values in america coincided with the removal of references to god from classrooms government buildings and so on. budd your first post to this thread you asked a question. who killed god and / or kicked him and his values out of society you guys turned it the christian witch hunt. from there you took it to a christian crusade. which imo was and is your intent. roy im just not feeling the love. beekeep .

From : roy

on wed 10 may 2006 101340 -0400 roy roy@home.net wrote no your bigotry is showing miles. i simply pointed out the decline in moral values in america coincided with the removal of references to god from classrooms government buildings and so on. budd your first post to this thread you asked a question. who killed god and / or kicked him and his values out of society you guys turned it the christian witch hunt. from there you took it to a christian crusade. which imo was and is your intent. roy im just not feeling the love. love has nothing to do with it.g try to step back and read through this thread objectivly. just offering mho. roy . 222 317793 1147283847.122542.36600@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com as long as your not out by time you should be good. most dealers can fudge the mileage to help a fellow out. but be an ass and you will be reminded that it sucks to be you. give them a call and let them know whats going on and no suprises. theyll help you out. .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

lol yes take your pokes at my spelling and lake of punctuation. fact is this isnt a formal letter for buisiness so i really dont give a shit if i typo/misspell a thing or two. and you dont have to pity my kids they are fine and ahead of the average kid their ages. -- -chris 05 ctd 06 liberty crd in b6d$44608da2$d86020d2$25772@alltel.net on tue 9 may 2006 084742 -0400 christopher thompson wrote ah ah but does that make them illeterate illiterate just just because i i cant cant read or write in french french doesnt doesnt mean im im illeterate illiterate. maybe maybe as far as that language is concerned but not uneducated ect. etc. illiterate in french and illiterate in english. .

From : tbone

lol perhaps it was the declining values of our society that killed god as you put it and as much as you may want to blame it on the left the growing greed on the right shows them to not care all that much for the fabric of this society either. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving and the intent was to show the coincidence between the two. im sorry you couldnt understand that roy. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams no your bigotry is showing miles. i simply pointed out the decline in moral values in america coincided with the removal of references to god from classrooms government buildings and so on. budd your first post to this thread you asked a question. who killed god and / or kicked him and his values out of society you guys turned it the christian witch hunt. from there you took it to a christian crusade. which imo was and is your intent. roy *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : tbone

on sat 6 may 2006 191608 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote you freaked out liberal idiot join your buddy in the killfile well............that outburst was perfectly ok. very normal. very sane. btw tom i believe that i am now your buddy and that you have joined me in the killfile. in case you didnt know the killfile is where you put people that have been kicking your ass. then they dont exist i guess. at least i think that is the way it is in the last outpost of insanity that exists somewhere inside the mind of budd. you know that place that budd is using to try to keep one foot in the real world. yea it appears that we are best friends again. but if we disagree on something political in the future then im sure budd will come running back to embrace you once again. gee arent you lucky. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : Annonymous

and that is why i want out of this discussion. however every time you insist on an answer you in a very intolerant manner drag me back in. you blame miles for forcing you to respond stop ... the laughter is killing me. typical christian mentality ... blame everyone else for your own weaknesses and downfalls. afterall how could you possibly make any mistake or error in judgment with all those wonderful values done nailing yourself to that cross yet craig c. .

From : beekeep

on wed 10 may 2006 125957 -0400 roy roy@home.net wrote on wed 10 may 2006 101340 -0400 roy roy@home.net wrote no your bigotry is showing miles. i simply pointed out the decline in moral values in america coincided with the removal of references to god from classrooms government buildings and so on. budd your first post to this thread you asked a question. who killed god and / or kicked him and his values out of society you guys turned it the christian witch hunt. from there you took it to a christian crusade. which imo was and is your intent. roy im just not feeling the love. love has nothing to do with it.g try to step back and read through this thread objectivly. just offering mho. roy i have read the whole thread. what i dont understand is what does all of this do with a gas boycott. beekeep .

From : Annonymous

on 10 may 2006 151249 -0700 craig@metronet.com craig@metronet.com wrote and that is why i want out of this discussion. however every time you insist on an answer you in a very intolerant manner drag me back in. you blame miles for forcing you to respond stop ... the laughter is killing me. typical christian mentality ... blame everyone else for your own weaknesses and downfalls. afterall how could you possibly make any mistake or error in judgment with all those wonderful values done nailing yourself to that cross yet well unfortunately that pretty much sums this thread up. craig c. .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote no your bigotry is showing miles. i simply pointed out the decline in moral values in america coincided with the removal of references to god from classrooms government buildings and so on. you guys turned it the christian witch hunt. you made the inference to connect the two occurrences as being related. your actions here have done nothing to support that. quite the opposite. the lack of tolerance among the religious sect is growing and you have shown it whether youll admit that or not. you choose to put the blame on removal of references to god etc. but refuse to accept that maybe the churches themselves have much to share in the blame. .

From : miles

tbone wrote lol perhaps it was the declining values of our society that killed god as you put it and as much as you may want to blame it on the left the growing greed on the right shows them to not care all that much for the fabric of this society either. hmm this is something that has always baffled me. are there very few democrats liberals or lefties that are religious most of my neighbors are democrats and attend church every sunday. tbone youre attempting to use your political bias to point blame on one group the right when 50% of society is on the left. they share in the blame just as much. .

From : Annonymous

on wed 10 may 2006 193421 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote tbone wrote lol perhaps it was the declining values of our society that killed god as you put it and as much as you may want to blame it on the left the growing greed on the right shows them to not care all that much for the fabric of this society either. hmm this is something that has always baffled me. are there very few democrats liberals or lefties that are religious most of my neighbors are democrats and attend church every sunday. tbone youre attempting to use your political bias to point blame on one group the right when 50% of society is on the left. they share in the blame just as much. very true. .

From : tbone

tbone wrote lol perhaps it was the declining values of our society that killed god as you put it and as much as you may want to blame it on the left the growing greed on the right shows them to not care all that much for the fabric of this society either. hmm this is something that has always baffled me. are there very few democrats liberals or lefties that are religious most of my neighbors are democrats and attend church every sunday. tbone youre attempting to use your political bias to point blame on one group the right when 50% of society is on the left. they share in the blame just as much. did you not read the very last word of my comment i could have sworn that i used the word either... and oh look there it is. i am not blaming just the right as you and budd do with the left but your bias prevents you from seeing that. i guess that is why budd wants to keep you as a friend even though you dont have the same religious beliefs you are every bit as biased politically. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : roy

well did you ever stop to think that christians might just be tired of being kicked around for everything just like you clowns have doing to me. wait a sec! you brought relgion into this thread. these guys disagreed with you. that is not being kicked around. roy .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

no miles just to point out the coincidence not that you would accept my word on it nor would you accept a link about it. so for you all it became was a chance to bash a christian. feeling better now more important you put the christian in his place didnt you i once thought you to be above this bigoted stuff. i was wrong about you. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams budd cochran wrote and the intent was to show the coincidence between the two. im sorry you couldnt understand that roy. for just what purpose to pass blame perhaps surely it was for a very calculated reason. your inference was noted wrong but noted. *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

yeah i mentioned the coincidence. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams well did you ever stop to think that christians might just be tired of being kicked around for everything just like you clowns have doing to me. wait a sec! you brought relgion into this thread. these guys disagreed with you. that is not being kicked around. roy *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : christopher thompson

christopher thompson kf4drr-nospam@alltel.net wrote yea but liberal is a dirty word. and conservative is on its way to becoming just as dirty the main reason being that with each passing election it gets harder to tell the difference between the two. lol aint that the truth! -- -chris 05 ctd 06 liberty crd .

From : Annonymous

in summary the gas boycott wont work because americans dont care ... apparently about anything according to the op. to which budd blamed the atheists and agnostics for the fall of america freedom and western civilization as we know it. if wed only hand our minds over to the nearest priest/peacher the birds would start chirping and sun shining once again and peace and goodwill towards all men would be restored along with low gas prices. but not until we sacrifice ... so you have to pull down your tighty-whiteys and let the priest have his way first ... all in the name of god and good christian values of course. i think that pretty much sums this thread up. oh yeah i forgot if you utter the words stem cell research youre a murderer. i love this ng. - craig c. .

From : tbone

im impressed ;- -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving in summary the gas boycott wont work because americans dont care ... apparently about anything according to the op. to which budd blamed the atheists and agnostics for the fall of america freedom and western civilization as we know it. if wed only hand our minds over to the nearest priest/peacher the birds would start chirping and sun shining once again and peace and goodwill towards all men would be restored along with low gas prices. but not until we sacrifice ... so you have to pull down your tighty-whiteys and let the priest have his way first ... all in the name of god and good christian values of course. i think that pretty much sums this thread up. oh yeah i forgot if you utter the words stem cell research youre a murderer. i love this ng. - craig c. .

From : tbone

it is really like talking to a wall. no matter what you say he will see only what he wants to. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving yeah i mentioned the coincidence. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams well did you ever stop to think that christians might just be tired of being kicked around for everything just like you clowns have doing to me. wait a sec! you brought relgion into this thread. these guys disagreed with you. that is not being kicked around. roy *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

well did you ever stop to think that christians might just be tired of being kicked around for everything just like you clowns have doing to me. anti-christians liberals and their cousins accuse christians for everything like craig and his christians child molester crap while completely ignoring the other side of the coin the non-christian side that does and has done far more crime molestation warmongering murders and wife beating than all the christians that ever walked the face of the earth. but your bigotry wont admit it no not when you have christians to bash for any reason real or just in you brainwashed imaginations. but now were getting tired of it. were speaking up for our rights as christians and we get called intolerant for it. guess what it aint going away its growing and you guys will have to have laws passed outlawing christianity to even slow it down. but you wont stop it. not even the anti-christ can stop it. im done. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams budd cochran wrote no your bigotry is showing miles. i simply pointed out the decline in moral values in america coincided with the removal of references to god from classrooms government buildings and so on. you guys turned it the christian witch hunt. you made the inference to connect the two occurrences as being related. your actions here have done nothing to support that. quite the opposite. the lack of tolerance among the religious sect is growing and you have shown it whether youll admit that or not. you choose to put the blame on removal of references to god etc. but refuse to accept that maybe the churches themselves have much to share in the blame. *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

according to fox polls only about 20% of america admits to being liberal not 50%. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams tbone wrote lol perhaps it was the declining values of our society that killed god as you put it and as much as you may want to blame it on the left the growing greed on the right shows them to not care all that much for the fabric of this society either. hmm this is something that has always baffled me. are there very few democrats liberals or lefties that are religious most of my neighbors are democrats and attend church every sunday. tbone youre attempting to use your political bias to point blame on one group the right when 50% of society is on the left. they share in the blame just as much. *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : beekeep

on thu 11 may 2006 011846 -0400 roy roy@home.net wrote well did you ever stop to think that christians might just be tired of being kicked around for everything just like you clowns have doing to me. wait a sec! you brought relgion into this thread. these guys disagreed with you. that is not being kicked around. roy and our government wont let us feed them to the lions anymore either. beekeep .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote well did you ever stop to think that christians might just be tired of being kicked around for everything just like you clowns have doing to me. so the christians problems are caused by everyone else take responsibility for once in history. you feel picked on. well budd too bad thats the way we have felt for a long time from the religious zealots who try to convert everyone their way. you asked a question here and didnt like the answer and its our fault while completely ignoring the other side of the coin the non-christian side that does and has done far more crime molestation warmongering murders and wife beating than all the christians that ever walked the face of the earth. while that is true you still are attempting to bury a very nasty problem within the church and water it down. one of the problems with the church is that their secrecy in all this has made it difficult to see how big the problem is. when it did blow up in their face a few years ago church leaders nationwide said its an internal problem and not a public one. they moved leaders who were proven in a court of law to be a molester. they then failed to tell anyone at their new church. just bury it and hide the problem. and you wonder why people are speaking out against the church more and more i know youll continue to defend their actions in the failed belief thats how to make a connection with the public. there is a better way that wont alienate the public and accomplish far better things for all. but your bigotry wont admit it no not when you have christians to bash for any reason real or just in you brainwashed imaginations. i bash some because they have spent decades refusing to accept any blame for any of their problems and yet expect me to accept their ways. now youre under the belief it is we who are brainwashed lol. ya budd youre really helping the situation and getting more people to listen. there is a better way if you expect people to listen learn and maybe convert. its called respect tolerance and understanding of others views. ive said i respect yours. i do not want nor expect to change you to mine. can you say the same but now were getting tired of it. were speaking up for our rights as christians and we get called intolerant for it. you need to first start by taking responsibility and showing others youre a respectable group. the issues surrounding molestation really blew up worldwide the past several years. the churches response was diplorable. its not the chuch thats finally speaking up budd. it is the public finally fighting back and telling the church to clean up its act. but dont do that budd. just continue to defend and shove the public away and see where it leads. there is a better way if you seek it. guess what it aint going away its growing and you guys will have to have laws passed outlawing christianity to even slow it down. yes some laws have been passed to prevent churches from hiding convicted felons. we wouldnt need to pass such laws if the church would act in a responsible way. they would also win the public over instead of shoving them away. .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote no miles just to point out the coincidence not that you would accept my word on it nor would you accept a link about it. so for you all it became was a chance to bash a christian. here you go once again! you try to show your coincidence to show why theres problems in the world. gotta be because people have been pushing the church away. you would do far better to understand why the public is doing that. instead you try to explain how its all non-christians fault for the problems the country faces. when the church finally starts taking responsibility for their own actions and inactions then the public will be ready to talk. not before. keep doing as you have and shoving the public further away. how is it working towards the churches goals seriously budd you need to learn how to fully respect and have tolerance for those that do not believe the way you do. .

From : miles

tbone wrote fox lol!!!!! oh ya to you fox is biased and everyone else is balanced. lol .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote yeah i mentioned the coincidence. so disagreeing with your religious views is considered bashing to you sigh. some day the church will grow up. .

From : roy

in summary the gas boycott wont work because americans dont care ... apparently about anything according to the op. to which budd blamed the atheists and agnostics for the fall of america freedom and western civilization as we know it. yup that was my position as op. as for budds position it well....... roy .

From : roy

tbone wrote fox lol!!!!! oh ya to you fox is biased and everyone else is balanced. lol miles ya gotta admit fox does have a big lean to it. g roy .

From : roy

yeah i mentioned the coincidence. budd you were baiting imo. and ya caught a few more than ya could handle. roy .

From : roy

whatever. like i said no one would believe my intent no matter what proof i gave. you just proved that. budd i gave you my opinon based on how i read the thread. perhaps if you sorta stood back and reread it objectively you might see how i arrived at my opinion. roy .

From : beekeep

on 11 may 2006 053230 -0700 craig@metronet.com craig@metronet.com wrote in summary the gas boycott wont work because americans dont care ... apparently about anything according to the op. to which budd blamed the atheists and agnostics for the fall of america freedom and western civilization as we know it. whats he got against atheists isnt god one beekeep .

From : miles

roy wrote tbone wrote fox lol!!!!! oh ya to you fox is biased and everyone else is balanced. lol miles ya gotta admit fox does have a big lean to it. g sure it does but so does cbs and you dont hear a dang thing about them. fox has 3 liberal commentators. how many conservative commentators does cbs have .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

whatever. like i said no one would believe my intent no matter what proof i gave. you just proved that. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams yeah i mentioned the coincidence. budd you were baiting imo. and ya caught a few more than ya could handle. roy *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

ya know roy i was trying to be independently objective just giving a historical coincidence no baiting like you claim i did. so what if im a christian if everyone was being objective then the discussion would not have gone the way it did. would any of you mentioned the info i gave as having happened about the same time youd rather have your teeth pulled without anesthetic. but that proved the point. i cant write anything with any christian connection at all without you and the rest jumping all over it because you cant / wont read it as being an objective comment. gotta bash the christian lest he survive at all. now about objectivity .... pot kettle black. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams whatever. like i said no one would believe my intent no matter what proof i gave. you just proved that. budd i gave you my opinon based on how i read the thread. perhaps if you sorta stood back and reread it objectively you might see how i arrived at my opinion. roy *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : Annonymous

on thu 11 may 2006 132441 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote ya know roy i was trying to be independently objective just giving a historical coincidence no baiting like you claim i did. so what if im a christian if everyone was being objective then the discussion would not have gone the way it did. would any of you mentioned the info i gave as having happened about the same time youd rather have your teeth pulled without anesthetic. but that proved the point. i cant write anything with any christian connection at all without you and the rest jumping all over it because you cant / wont read it as being an objective comment. gotta bash the christian lest he survive at all. now about objectivity .... pot kettle black. fuck you have really walked over the edge. .

From : tbone

on thu 11 may 2006 132441 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote ya know roy i was trying to be independently objective just giving a historical coincidence no baiting like you claim i did. so what if im a christian if everyone was being objective then the discussion would not have gone the way it did. would any of you mentioned the info i gave as having happened about the same time youd rather have your teeth pulled without anesthetic. but that proved the point. i cant write anything with any christian connection at all without you and the rest jumping all over it because you cant / wont read it as being an objective comment. gotta bash the christian lest he survive at all. now about objectivity .... pot kettle black. fuck you have really walked over the edge. watch the language there dude after all this is now a christian group. .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote but that proved the point. i cant write anything with any christian connection at all without you and the rest jumping all over it because you cant / wont read it as being an objective comment. gotta bash the christian lest he survive at all. can you read anything that differs from your own views objectively you have shown time and again you cant. gotta blame the problems of society on those that are not christians. .

From : Annonymous

on thu 11 may 2006 164306 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote budd cochran wrote but that proved the point. i cant write anything with any christian connection at all without you and the rest jumping all over it because you cant / wont read it as being an objective comment. gotta bash the christian lest he survive at all. can you read anything that differs from your own views objectively you have shown time and again you cant. gotta blame the problems of society on those that are not christians. look really..........this has nothing to do with christianity at all. he knows that. come one he had these stupid ongoing arguments where he would accuse everyone of attacking him and everyone of being against him long before he spazzed on the christian thing. before he spazzed because everyone was against him because he was a conservative american; then it was because he had disabitlities; and who can remember what it was before. he may be a little more over the edge on the christianity thing but the idea is the same as several of his other budd against the world journeys. the main difference is i dont think hes coming back from this one. .

From : miles

look really..........this has nothing to do with christianity at all. thats very true. i and probably most here do not care if someone is a christian or not. i do not like being told societies problems are caused by people like myself that dont follow the correct beliefs. im tired of being told i dont have morals and values because i dont follow the correct beliefs. society has problems and religion is part of society and part of the problem. .

From : Annonymous

on thu 11 may 2006 171032 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote look really..........this has nothing to do with christianity at all. thats very true. i and probably most here do not care if someone is a christian or not. i do not like being told societies problems are caused by people like myself that dont follow the correct beliefs. im tired of being told i dont have morals and values because i dont follow the correct beliefs. society has problems and religion is part of society and part of the problem. i hear you.......but i really think that it is us people that are the problem. we can pretty much mess anything up. the good thing is that we could fix it too if we were just willing to do it. .

From : miles

theguy@whatever.net wrote i hear you.......but i really think that it is us people that are the problem. we can pretty much mess anything up. the good thing is that we could fix it too if we were just willing to do it. sure we can and people are willing to do it. but nobody agrees on how to do it. everyone has their own ideas of whats wrong and what will fix it and nobody agrees and never will. .

From : Annonymous

on thu 11 may 2006 172958 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote theguy@whatever.net wrote i hear you.......but i really think that it is us people that are the problem. we can pretty much mess anything up. the good thing is that we could fix it too if we were just willing to do it. sure we can and people are willing to do it. but nobody agrees on how to do it. everyone has their own ideas of whats wrong and what will fix it and nobody agrees and never will. sigh. ok. i was just sayin thats all. .

From : christopher thompson

roy wrote tbone wrote fox lol!!!!! oh ya to you fox is biased and everyone else is balanced. lol miles ya gotta admit fox does have a big lean to it. g sure it does but so does cbs and you dont hear a dang thing about them. fox has 3 liberal commentators. how many conservative commentators does cbs have yea but liberal is a dirty word. -- -chris 05 ctd 06 liberty crd .

From : christopher thompson

the only problem with religion is religion its self. now what do i mean by that statement simply put when it becomes more important wiether or not your going to church every sunday or wiether your doing the good deeds to prove your a good christian or what ever else you could think of. instead of loving the lord and living a life of a believer. now this will most likely be the only post where i mention any sort of religious beliefs because much like a political statement a religious comment or discussion is almost a guaranteed argument. -- -chris 05 ctd 06 liberty crd look really..........this has nothing to do with christianity at all. thats very true. i and probably most here do not care if someone is a christian or not. i do not like being told societies problems are caused by people like myself that dont follow the correct beliefs. im tired of being told i dont have morals and values because i dont follow the correct beliefs. society has problems and religion is part of society and part of the problem. .

From : miles

tbone wrote why because they dont praise bush every time he gets a sentence right and dont blame every mistake being made on clinton or the democrats no cbs bashes bush and the reps on every minute of every show but theyre not biased right no way not to you. three out of 100 wow. the truth is that they are just the straight men in the comedy known as fox and anyone that is not completely right biased like yourself knows it. riiiiiiiiighhhhhht!!! so how many conservative commentators does cbs have ill help you out. it is fewer than 3! but no way could you ever admit that cbs or any other media is liberal biased. no way. .

From : steve ackman

in aor8g.47$kc2.36@tornado.southeast.rr.com on fri 12 may 2006 014712 gmt tbone wrote i would think that it is far more likely that the majority is far more balanced than the one. the fact that they have to tell us that they are fair and balanced tells it all. a survey was done not too long ago asking journalists and people whether they considered themselves liberal centrist or conservative. 82% said liberal. what does that tell .

From : Annonymous

on fri 12 may 2006 034657 gmt steve ackman steve@snip-this.twoloonscoffee.com wrote in aor8g.47$kc2.36@tornado.southeast.rr.com on fri 12 may 2006 014712 gmt tbone wrote i would think that it is far more likely that the majority is far more balanced than the one. the fact that they have to tell us that they are fair and balanced tells it all. a survey was done not too long ago asking journalists and people whether they considered themselves liberal centrist or conservative. 82% said liberal. ah yes a survey. well...that answers that then. what does that tell .

From : tbone

in aor8g.47$kc2.36@tornado.southeast.rr.com on fri 12 may 2006 014712 gmt tbone wrote i would think that it is far more likely that the majority is far more balanced than the one. the fact that they have to tell us that they are fair and balanced tells it all. a survey was done not too long ago asking journalists and people whether they considered themselves liberal centrist or conservative. 82% said liberal. what does that tell that 82% of the ones asked actually have brains ;- what you failed to mention was who exactly performed this survey and what journalists were asked. how about a link. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

tbone wrote i would think that it is far more likely that the majority is far more balanced than the one. then you would be biased and wrong. pretty much like you huh! cbs is far more biased than fox could ever be. i am sure that you believe this but with your extreme right wing bias i can see where you might actually believe that. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : roy

ya know roy i was trying to be independently objective just giving a historical coincidence no baiting like you claim i did. so what if im a christian if everyone was being objective then the discussion would not have gone the way it did. would any of you mentioned the info i gave as having happened about the same time youd rather have your teeth pulled without anesthetic. but that proved the point. i cant write anything with any christian connection at all without you and the rest jumping all over it because you cant / wont read it as being an objective comment. gotta bash the christian lest he survive at all. now about objectivity .... pot kettle black. i guess all the crap above means that you dont see how i arrived at my opinon. oh well.............. roy .

From : beekeep

on thu 11 may 2006 235402 gmt theguy@whatever.net wrote look really..........this has nothing to do with christianity at all. he knows that. come one he had these stupid ongoing arguments where he would accuse everyone of attacking him and everyone of being against him long before he spazzed on the christian thing. before he spazzed because everyone was against him because he was a conservative american; then it was because he had disabitlities; and who can remember what it was before. i can. how about the roof fell on my head post. then i was accused of wishing him dead. beekeep .

From : beekeep

on thu 11 may 2006 132441 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote but that proved the point. i cant write anything with any christian connection at all without you and the rest jumping all over it because you cant / wont read it as being an objective comment. gotta bash the christian lest he survive at all. hey its survival of the fittest. oh yeah i forgot you dont believe in that. beekeep .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

greg i apologized for that but it appears you didnt accept the apology after all. fine if that is your choice but what does that say about you does it say that if someone offends you in any manner that you will never forgive so be it if thats what you want. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams on thu 11 may 2006 235402 gmt theguy@whatever.net wrote look really..........this has nothing to do with christianity at all. he knows that. come one he had these stupid ongoing arguments where he would accuse everyone of attacking him and everyone of being against him long before he spazzed on the christian thing. before he spazzed because everyone was against him because he was a conservative american; then it was because he had disabitlities; and who can remember what it was before. i can. how about the roof fell on my head post. then i was accused of wishing him dead. beekeep *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

no roy it means your mind is closed. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams ya know roy i was trying to be independently objective just giving a historical coincidence no baiting like you claim i did. so what if im a christian if everyone was being objective then the discussion would not have gone the way it did. would any of you mentioned the info i gave as having happened about the same time youd rather have your teeth pulled without anesthetic. but that proved the point. i cant write anything with any christian connection at all without you and the rest jumping all over it because you cant / wont read it as being an objective comment. gotta bash the christian lest he survive at all. now about objectivity .... pot kettle black. i guess all the crap above means that you dont see how i arrived at my opinon. oh well.............. roy *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

and the meek disciplined will inherit the earth. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams on thu 11 may 2006 132441 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote but that proved the point. i cant write anything with any christian connection at all without you and the rest jumping all over it because you cant / wont read it as being an objective comment. gotta bash the christian lest he survive at all. hey its survival of the fittest. oh yeah i forgot you dont believe in that. beekeep *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : tbone

tbone wrote why because they dont praise bush every time he gets a sentence right and dont blame every mistake being made on clinton or the democrats no cbs bashes bush and the reps on every minute of every show but theyre not biased right no way not to you. lol more complete bs. all they are doing is reporting the not hiding or spinning it like fox and the amount of time spent on bush is low to non-existant anymore. as for the bashing as you call it bush and the reps are currently running the country so the screwups are their fault. i know that you and fox still like to blame everything on clinton and the dems but the dems have not controlled congress for over 12 years and clinton has been out of office for 6 years now. sorry miles but it is long past time for the ones in charge to accept responsibility for their actions. funny how they dont seem to have any trouble taking credit for anything good that comes along even when they really had nothing to do with it. three out of 100 wow. the truth is that they are just the straight men in the comedy known as fox and anyone that is not completely right biased like yourself knows it. riiiiiiiiighhhhhht!!! so how many conservative commentators does cbs have i dont know. perhaps because they dont label then in a lame attempt to make themselves appear to be fair and balanced lol! the point is that fox doesnt have any real liberal commentators. they have 3 straight men that do whatever they are told by their conservative bosses. i do watch fox sometimes and your liberal commentators never seem to talk about the key issues when they actually are key issues. the either mention something so trivial that they are dismissed as whiners or bring up something so old and tired that they look like they are needlessly bashing so either these three are the dumbest liberals on the planet or it is just staged bs to make the less intelligent conservatives think that they are on the right side. ill help you out. it is fewer than 3! but no way could you ever admit that cbs or any other media is liberal biased. no way. if by liberal biased you mean open minded you would be correct. i must say that the conservatives really have become a bunch of closed minded and hateful group. perhaps that is because their leadership is so sub-standard lately. face it miles while there is political influence one way or the other in all fox is the right wing press and make it clear to just about everyone that they are the most biased network on the planet. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

budd cochran wrote no roy it means your mind is closed. hmm. your mind is open heck no it isnt. you have one view and one view only. everything else is wrong. .

From : miles

tbone wrote lol more complete bs. all they are doing is reporting the not hiding or spinning it like fox and the amount of time spent on bush is low to non-existant anymore. iows if what cbs says is per your biased views then they arent biased at all. you seem to believe fox is biased but cbs is balanced. rofl. unbelievable how you liberals see bias only where you want. cbs isnt biased rofl...riiiiigggggghhhhhhttttt. if by liberal biased you mean open minded you would be correct. open minded lol. ya dan rather wasnt biased right just telling the unbiased right no matter if the story is proven wrong its all open minded and balanced right too funny. .

From : Annonymous

on fri 12 may 2006 111329 gmt honeybs@radix.net beekeep wrote on thu 11 may 2006 235402 gmt theguy@whatever.net wrote look really..........this has nothing to do with christianity at all. he knows that. come one he had these stupid ongoing arguments where he would accuse everyone of attacking him and everyone of being against him long before he spazzed on the christian thing. before he spazzed because everyone was against him because he was a conservative american; then it was because he had disabitlities; and who can remember what it was before. i can. how about the roof fell on my head post. then i was accused of wishing him dead. beekeep oh yeah i remember that one too. lol. anyway my point was that budd has an extreme vicitm thing going on in his mind. extreme well beyond any sort of reasonableness or normality. .

From : Annonymous

on fri 12 may 2006 061004 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote greg i apologized for that but it appears you didnt accept the apology after all. fine if that is your choice but what does that say about you does it say that if someone offends you in any manner that you will never forgive so be it if thats what you want. hmmm. lets see. if you offend someone.........anyone.......they are wrong to not forgive you. if someone........anyone...........offends you they are wrong for having the audacity to offend you. very nice self serving rules to live by. just a tad psychotic but never the less quite easy to remember. .

From : Annonymous

and the meek disciplined will inherit the earth. luke 637 stop judging others and you will not be judged. stop criticizing others or it will all come back on you. if you forgive others you will be forgiven. you expect us to listen to you when you cant follow your own guidelines i agree with roy ... new meds may in order ... or good dose of reality. craig c. .

From : roy

no roy it means your mind is closed. herein lies your problem imo also where you lose credibility. you above post is a blanket statement. because i have a different opinion than you that means my mind is closed not at all i disagree with your position. pal at your next check up you might want to have your doc read this thread im sure he will be perscribeing some new meds. i dont mean this in a bad way but you are really stepping out a bit here. i know ya dont want to here it it but.... ya have a real pattern going on. roy .

From : beekeep

i was just commenting on your pattern over the years thats all. there was no apology needed. it was just my sick sense of humor being misunderstood. in a year you will be over all of this and pissed about something new. personally i dont think anyone here means you any harm or disrespect. you just tend to over react and go on the attack. from what little i know about the teachings of christ i am a little perplexed by this since you claim to live by his teachings. you wont be much of a fisherman of men if you attack everyone that questions your beliefs. until you get a grip on your emotions you will convert no one. beliving is suposed to bring an inner peace that everyone endevors to find. if we dont see it in you then why would we want to follow take a deep breath and enjoy the day compliments of your god. you and i have been in this place a long time and know each other pretty well by now. basically i think youre a good guy that tends to be a little paranoid. have you ever known a kid that could pass up pushing a big red flashing button well my friend in this place youre that button. well probably still be here when most of them are gone. there aint too many faces left that were here when i first came here. beekeep on fri 12 may 2006 061004 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote greg i apologized for that but it appears you didnt accept the apology after all. fine if that is your choice but what does that say about you does it say that if someone offends you in any manner that you will never forgive so be it if thats what you want. -- budd cochran john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. it is wholly inadequate for the government of any other. john adams on thu 11 may 2006 235402 gmt theguy@whatever.net wrote look really..........this has nothing to do with christianity at all. he knows that. come one he had these stupid ongoing arguments where he would accuse everyone of attacking him and everyone of being against him long before he spazzed on the christian thing. before he spazzed because everyone was against him because he was a conservative american; then it was because he had disabitlities; and who can remember what it was before. i can. how about the roof fell on my head post. then i was accused of wishing him dead. beekeep *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : beekeep

on fri 12 may 2006 112021 -0400 roy roy@home.net wrote no roy it means your mind is closed. herein lies your problem imo also where you lose credibility. you above post is a blanket statement. because i have a different opinion than you that means my mind is closed not at all i disagree with your position. pal at your next check up you might want to have your doc read this thread im sure he will be perscribeing some new meds. i dont mean this in a bad way but you are really stepping out a bit here. i know ya dont want to here it it but.... ya have a real pattern going on. roy maybe we can get him to smoke a little pot after all god put it here for a reason. beekeep .

From : beekeep

on fri 12 may 2006 221513 gmt tom lawrence tnloaswpraemnmcien5g@earthlink.net wrote those that dont want the decline to continue must take action against those destroying the group. you mean like the ones that constantly get into huge multi-page political/theological arguments that have absolutely nothing to do with the subject matter of this group i couldnt agree more... amen beekeep .

From : tbone

budd cochran wrote no roy it means your mind is closed. hmm. your mind is open heck no it isnt. you have one view and one view only. everything else is wrong. gee that sounds like someone else i know oh yea you. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

tbone wrote budd cochran wrote no roy it means your mind is closed. hmm. your mind is open heck no it isnt. you have one view and one view only. everything else is wrong. gee that sounds like someone else i know oh yea you. ya but in your case you really are wrong. .

From : tom lawrence

those that dont want the decline to continue must take action against those destroying the group. you mean like the ones that constantly get into huge multi-page political/theological arguments that have absolutely nothing to do with the subject matter of this group i couldnt agree more... .

From : Annonymous

i know what you mean and i think the group is not as good as it was back then either. at this rate it wont be worth anything before long. the cure those that dont want the decline to continue must take action against those destroying the group. you started this mess you retard. craig c. .

From : me

on fri 12 may 2006 153243 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote snip those christian child molestors are no greater a percentage of all christianity than for any other belief including atheists for example. you are missing the point i dont think people are upset over the molestation itself maybe not even the fact supposed men of god priests were doing the molestation. what gets most people in an uproar over this is the fact the catholic church knew about this and has known for many many years. while not quite openly condoning this activity by either ignoring it sweeping it under the carpet or transferring offenders to other posts/positions within the church they are condoning it in practice. gee what made them finally come out against this victims started filing law suits against the church and started winning. now that the sh*t is about to hit the churchs financial fan they suddenly become concerned over it. just like any other corporation hit em in the pocketbook and you get action... preists started going to prison convicted of breaking the law of the land civilian law that is apparently the catholic church has no internal policy/law against grown men in a position of power and ultimate trust f*cking little boys in the butt and took no action until it started costing money and lots of it. believe what you want personally i feel the christian religion is a farce. it began as an institutional way of controlling people and still is nothing more. oh yeah you can quote all the scriptures you want. the bible is a nice novel full of contridictions and conveniently open to translation and interpretation which can be twisted to whatever suits the purpose at the moment. death and resurrection it happens at thousands of hospital every day. oh but science can now explain these resurrections we know how to bring humans back from the dead. death and resurrection sounds like a common coma to me. there are many scientific explaination of how a person can appear to be lifeless yet still very much alive. of course the christian answer to these modern day resurrections its gods will he wasnt ready for you to serve a higher purpose. yeah right... snip budd me .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

i was just commenting on your pattern over the years thats all. my pattern is that of a fundamental chridtian greg. iirc you said your wife is catholic which is a belief considerably different from mine so there is less to compare between them. there was no apology needed. it was just my sick sense of humor being misunderstood. but as a christian i must apologize for my misunderstanding you. i apologize my friend. yes i do want to remain friends with you. in a year you will be over all of this and pissed about something new. i hope not but that is up to others. . . personally i dont think anyone here means you any harm or disrespect. i disagree but ive put them in my killfile. you just tend to over react and go on the attack. im tired of making a statement or comment then having those that disagree with the statement / comment accuse me of actions never intended nor committed by me. like i told roy i dont preach as i could. from what little i know about the teachings of christ i am a little perplexed by this since you claim to live by his teachings. i live by them as closely as i can. seriously i dont preach as much as some of my fundamental christian friends out of respect for others in the group but some of them will never believe that because of their own bias. you wont be much of a fisherman of men if you attack everyone that questions your beliefs. one of the requirements of fundamental beliving is that i be ready and willing to give every man an answer for the faith i believe to be the truth found in 1st peter and to argue for the faith if it is required of me. until you get a grip on your emotions you will convert no one. i am not called to convert anyone that is the lords job. i am called to correct lies and errors about christian beliefs like the crap about christian being child molestors. those christian child molestors are no greater a percentage of all christianity than for any other belief including atheists for example. beliving is suposed to bring an inner peace that everyone endevors to find. yes i have that. i have become closer to my lord over the years and feel more peaceful than ever as shown by my lack of profanity. remember how i cussed just a few years back when angered if we dont see it in you then why would we want to follow take a deep breath and enjoy the day compliments of your god. some will never see because they refuse to see. there is none so blind as he that will not see as the old song goes. but neither not seeing nor refusing to see is justification for bigotry. you and i have been in this place a long time and know each other pretty well by now. basically i think youre a good guy that tends to be a little paranoid. nope no paranoia and that is from a diagnosis by a psychiatrist. i dont worry about anyone coming to get me. but i will respond to lies and misinformation about christianity. i will give links to reference sources. one source answers in genesis has chrisitan scientists on staff to abnswer questions about evolution for example. have you ever known a kid that could pass up pushing a big red flashing button well my friend in this place youre that button. no i am the target of bigotry against christianity because i speak up for or about my faith. the kid pushes the button to see what happens the bigots attack because they cannot control their hatred. if they knew what the bible says about the way they treat christians it should scare them because their very words and actions were prophesied in scriptures. if i never mention my beliefs then no one gets ticked off over it. in reality it shouldnt matter what i or anyone believes and the accusations the arguments should not happen. in this situation i mentioned a coincidence of the time period and got accused of everything they could come up with. of course i mentioned it because none of the non-believers would remember it. or would consider it to be notable. well probably still be here when most of them are gone. there aint too many faces left that were here when i first came here. i know what you mean and i think the group is not as good as it was back then either. at this rate it wont be worth anything before long. the cure those that dont want the decline to continue must take action against those destroying the group. beekeep budd *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : Annonymous

on fri 12 may 2006 153243 -0600 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote i was just commenting on your pattern over the years thats all. my pattern is that of a fundamental chridtian greg. iirc you said your wife is catholic which is a belief considerably different from mine so there is less to compare between them. there was no apology needed. it was just my sick sense of humor being misunderstood. but as a christian i must apologize for my misunderstanding you. i apologize my friend. yes i do want to remain friends with you. as i predicted just a day or so ago budds next phase will be the dont you want to be my firend.......please be my friend phase. and it is a phase not a real thing because hell blow another o-ring as soon as you say anything he doesnt like or anything that he can somehow miscontrue and take offense to. in a year you will be over all of this and pissed about something new. i hope not but that is up to others. . . personally i dont think anyone here means you any harm or disrespect. i disagree but ive put them in my killfile. yes if you ignore the truth you dont have to deal with it. you just tend to over react and go on the attack. im tired of making a statement or comment then having those that disagree with the statement / comment accuse me of actions never intended nor committed by me. like i told roy i dont preach as i could. from what little i know about the teachings of christ i am a little perplexed by this since you claim to live by his teachings. i live by them as closely as i can. seriously i dont preach as much as some of my fundamental christian friends out of respect for others in the group but some of them will never believe that because of their own bias. the im not so bad because others are worse argument is not a real solid one. you wont be much of a fisherman of men if you attack everyone that questions your beliefs. one of the requirements of fundamental beliving is that i be ready and willing to give every man an answer for the faith i believe to be the truth found in 1st peter and to argue for the faith if it is required of me. until you get a grip on your emotions you will convert no one. i am not called to convert anyone that is the lords job. i am called to correct lies and errors about christian beliefs like the crap about christian being child molestors. those christian child molestors are no greater a percentage of all christianity than for any other belief including atheists for example. that is probably true and i never heard anyone call christians child molesters nor did i hear anyone say that more christians were child molesters than any other groups. the point that someone made and i have no clue as to who it was even was just the hypocracy for someone to claim to hold such fandamental christian beliefs hold those beliefs up to others as a model and then engage in child molestation as some have done. i dont think it was a wide brush trying to paint all chritians........it was an example. beliving is suposed to bring an inner peace that everyone endevors to find. yes i have that. i have become closer to my lord over the years and feel more peaceful than ever as shown by my lack of profanity. remember how i cussed just a few years back when angered once again for you integrity is paper thin. as long as you dont use profanity are you saying that you are more christian if we dont see it in you then why would we want to follow take a deep breath and enjoy the day compliments of your god. some will never see because they refuse to see. there is none so blind as he that will not see as the old song goes. but neither not seeing nor refusing to see is justification for bigotry. a point that you need to ponder on...... you and i have been in this place a long time and know each other pretty well by now. basically i think youre a good guy that tends to be a little paranoid. nope no paranoia and that is from a diagnosis by a psychiatrist. i dont worry about anyone coming to get me. but i will respond to lies and misinformation about christianity. i will give links to reference sources. one source answers in genesis has chrisitan scientists on staff to abnswer questions about evolution for example. have you ever known a kid that could pass up pushing a big red flashing button well my friend in this place youre that button. no i am the target of bigotry against christianity because i speak up for or about my faith. the kid pushes the button to see what happens the bigots attack because they cannot control their hatred. if they knew what the bible says about the way they treat christians it should scare them because their very words and actions were prophesied in scriptures. craig said it best the other day......... if i never mention my beliefs then no one gets ticked off over it. in reality it s

From : tbone

tbone wrote budd cochran wrote no roy it means your mind is closed. hmm. your mind is open heck no it isnt. you have one view and one view only. everything else is wrong. gee that sounds like someone else i know oh yea you. ya but in your case you really are wrong. lol like i said if someone doesnt agree with you they are wrong just like you accuse budd of being and there you are correct. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : Annonymous

on 12 may 2006 205957 -0700 craig@metronet.com craig@metronet.com wrote i know what you mean and i think the group is not as good as it was back then either. at this rate it wont be worth anything before long. the cure those that dont want the decline to continue must take action against those destroying the group. you started this mess you retard. now that was funny. simply put.........but very true. craig c. .

From : roy

on fri 12 may 2006 112021 -0400 roy roy@home.net wrote no roy it means your mind is closed. herein lies your problem imo also where you lose credibility. you above post is a blanket statement. because i have a different opinion than you that means my mind is closed not at all i disagree with your position. pal at your next check up you might want to have your doc read this thread im sure he will be perscribeing some new meds. i dont mean this in a bad way but you are really stepping out a bit here. i know ya dont want to here it it but.... ya have a real pattern going on. roy maybe we can get him to smoke a little pot after all god put it here for a reason. hmmm... that might mellow him a bit. roy .