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Gas Saver Question - also Teflon additives Lines: 33

From : tbone

Q: the thing roy is that most people dont drive in wind tunnels and from what i see seldom in completely stock trucks either. i agree that in base stock form it is unusual for the truck to do better with the tailgate down as this was done by design. but if you change the angle of the truck put something in the bed add a bug deflector or perhaps an external sun visor now you are changing the aerodynamics of the vehicle and the airflow into the bed can be significantly changed. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving tbone wrote this whole argument is meaningless and depending on given situations either case can be true. not usually. in almost all cases dropping the tailgate will increase drag. however most tests done indicate the difference is not enough to see a change in mpg. miles has been on the money about this imo. ive not heard of any wind tunnel test that suggest a lessening of drag with the tail gate down or removed. roy .

Replies:

From : stephen n

al bundy wrote you deserve every flame that comes your way on this. the question has come up numerous times and the answer is always the same. you are right but i wouldnt be too hard on him. with the price of fuel rising we all wish there were something that we could easily do to stretch out a tank. on the same topic weve also gone through the debate of whether leaving your tailgate open will improve airflow and milage. it makes it worse by a little bit. there is a really great study on this with tailgate tonneaus and canopies being tested but i cant rememeber where it is now. also on topic are teflon coatings etc such as slick 50. there is a good page on these here http//skepdic.com/slick50.html the only ways i know to save gas are - dont drive - drive like a grandpa and go easy on the gas - plan trips when traffic is thinner - keep the truck tuned up and in order - dont use knobbier tires than you need and keep them at proper inflation. but i like knobby tires... - ignore that moron in the dodge beside you that wants to prove his truck is faster than yours. its just going to cost you in gas. - if it is an option pick the right gear ratio for the type of driving you do. that sort of thing. i do most of these and i still get pretty crappy milage. stephen n. .

From : steve ackman

in alq5g.3349$cz3.3207@clgrps13 on mon 01 may 2006 163310 gmt stephen n. wrote al bundy wrote on the same topic weve also gone through the debate of whether leaving your tailgate open will improve airflow and milage. it makes it worse by a little bit. there is a really great study on this with tailgate tonneaus and canopies being tested but i cant rememeber where it is now. it was done by the mythbusters. episode 43 ...returning to shore adam and jamie hit the road in a fuel efficiency special. they seek to answer the age-old question does driving with your pickups tailgate down save gas and hence money premiere nov. 16 2005 summary here http//kwc.org/mythbusters/2005/11/episode43seasicknesscuresf.html .

From : walt peifer

the tailgate episode tested 2 identical ford trucks of the new vintage. i would like to see if the results hold true on older body styles. on a side note i was reading some where that tire pressure had a big influence on mpg on late model trucks.. it seems that most dealers under inflate the trieslow side of recommended range so as to improve the ride where as most modern tires actually can run very high pressures .

From : todd

i can tell you from first hand experience that tail-gate down on an 81 chevy c10 deluxe longbed 20 gal tank gets better mpg with it down vs. up. i used to drive to penn state alot and my total round trip was 400.1 miles door-to-door - tail-gate up id need to refuel at the kop rest stop on the turnpike tail gate down took me all the way home with enough gas to get to work the next day. this was originally a 6cyl. truck that i swapped a v8 350 motor into out of an 89 iroc - roller cam motor switched over to carbureted with an edelbrock intake and a 74 quadrobog off a big block. so it had the 6cyl. gearing but i had 31 tires on it it pulled high 14s/low 15s in the 1/4 mile. now why is it this thing would get better then 20mpg highway when my modern fuel injected 02 dakota r/t is lucky to see 15-16 mpg highway and with a 4 speed auto vs. a three speed auto to boot. i just dont get it. hell my 1971 vw fastback 1.6l with dual carbs got 30mpg same as just about every new fuel injected car out there. just goes to show that modern fuel injection is only there for emissions reasons and made no improvement on mpg. .

From : christopher thompson

i hate to admit it. but! gm and the jap/korean imports seem to have a better handle on fuel management than ford or chrysler does. my step dad had a 88 c1500 yes a c truck not k with the 350 and got 22 highway. ive never owned a dodge until now with the 05 that could reach those numbers. even still i like the dodges much better than gms crap. -- -chris 05 ctd 99 durango 06 liberty crd i can tell you from first hand experience that tail-gate down on an 81 chevy c10 deluxe longbed 20 gal tank gets better mpg with it down vs. up. i used to drive to penn state alot and my total round trip was 400.1 miles door-to-door - tail-gate up id need to refuel at the kop rest stop on the turnpike tail gate down took me all the way home with enough gas to get to work the next day. this was originally a 6cyl. truck that i swapped a v8 350 motor into out of an 89 iroc - roller cam motor switched over to carbureted with an edelbrock intake and a 74 quadrobog off a big block. so it had the 6cyl. gearing but i had 31 tires on it it pulled high 14s/low 15s in the 1/4 mile. now why is it this thing would get better then 20mpg highway when my modern fuel injected 02 dakota r/t is lucky to see 15-16 mpg highway and with a 4 speed auto vs. a three speed auto to boot. i just dont get it. hell my 1971 vw fastback 1.6l with dual carbs got 30mpg same as just about every new fuel injected car out there. just goes to show that modern fuel injection is only there for emissions reasons and made no improvement on mpg. .

From : miles

todd wrote i can tell you from first hand experience that tail-gate down on an 81 chevy c10 deluxe longbed 20 gal tank gets better mpg with it down vs. up. i doubt that. every single wind tunnel test ever done on consumer pickups has shown an increase in drag when the tail gate is lowered. no reputable test has ever shown a lower drag coefficient which would be required to improve your mpg. some other reason accounted for your gains but it was not the tail gate. .

From : clare at snyder on ca

on tue 02 may 2006 172110 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote todd wrote i can tell you from first hand experience that tail-gate down on an 81 chevy c10 deluxe longbed 20 gal tank gets better mpg with it down vs. up. i doubt that. every single wind tunnel test ever done on consumer pickups has shown an increase in drag when the tail gate is lowered. no reputable test has ever shown a lower drag coefficient which would be required to improve your mpg. some other reason accounted for your gains but it was not the tail gate. well ill have to dissagree. on a longbed pickup tailgate down or off does make a measurable difference. so does a tonneau cover. on some shortboxes the difference is less pronounced but on my old fargo short box it made almost 4mpg difference at highway speeds. i generally drove it with the tonneau on. *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** . 222 317164 2yt5g.13385$o6.5096@trnddc08 you may be one of the lucky few in this country but most people dont have any other options. getting to and from work is not a convenience... in 1146594451.260535.210480@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com on 2 may 2006 112731 -0700 filleh wrote snip petro-economic urban legend http//www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/gasout.asp the only practical way of reducing gasoline prices is through the straightforward means of buying less gasoline not through a simple and painless scheme of just shifting where we buy it. the inconvenience of driving less is a hardship too many people apparently arent willing to endure however. .

From : roy

tbone wrote this whole argument is meaningless and depending on given situations either case can be true. not usually. in almost all cases dropping the tailgate will increase drag. however most tests done indicate the difference is not enough to see a change in mpg. miles has been on the money about this imo. ive not heard of any wind tunnel test that suggest a lessening of drag with the tail gate down or removed. roy .

From : tbone

tbone wrote yep that is exactly what it is and backed up be the numerous claims by many that dropping their tailgates improved mileage despite your wind tunnel tests. saying that simple wind tunnel tests of basically stock vehicles are the absolute answer is in a word idiotic. people have claimed adding a tornado magnets and other gizmos have increased their mpg as well. think they really did doubtful. people will find what they are looking for. i am sure than in some of these cases these things did work. the tornado has a valid design and if an intake system is not well designed the vortex it creates could improve intake efficiency and cause an increase in hp and mileage. will it happen in every vehicle of course not but to say it will never happen is just being ignorant. many of these gizmos will work in very specific situations and the builders of them try and make it look like it will work for all situations which is of course complete bs. no matter how you spin it wind tunnel tests are not real world bull. are you aware that new airplane designs are completely tested on computer models and partial structural wind tunnel testing so what are you really comparing an airplane to a truck. that is one hell of a reach and completely incorrect. an airplane is always in the direct flow of air or it would fall out of the sky and most people who are still alive dont add things to the aircraft that will significantly change the aerodynamics of the aircraft. btw the computer models do most of that testing. if they dont represent the real world then how the heck do they test new airplanes such as the new a380 that flew its first flight without trouble....after scores of wind tunnel testing to prove its airworthiness. lol more like scores of computer model testing and again an aircraft deals with airflow in a much different mannor than a ground based vehicle. ground based vehicles can drive through jet wash shear winds and turbulance with little more effect than being shaken a little. can the same be said for your aircraft wind tunnels tests certainly can and do prove a vehicles drag coefficient. sure it can and i never said anything different but then again that is in line with the airflow not counting turbulence crosswinds or changes to the airflow over the vehicle due to customer add-ons. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

tbone wrote i am sure than in some of these cases these things did work. the tornado has a valid design and if an intake system is not well designed the vortex it creates could improve intake efficiency and cause an increase in hp and mileage. will it happen in every vehicle of course not but to say it will never happen is just being ignorant. hmm...how many cars has the tornado been proved effective at increasing mpg i know of only ones that it has been proved ineffective. know any examples with credible testing sure it can and i never said anything different but then again that is in line with the airflow not counting turbulence crosswinds or changes to the airflow over the vehicle due to customer add-ons. those customer add-ons have been tested for their effects in wind tunnel testing. .

From : miles

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote well ill have to dissagree. on a longbed pickup tailgate down or off does make a measurable difference. so does a tonneau cover. on some shortboxes the difference is less pronounced but on my old fargo short box it made almost 4mpg difference at highway speeds. i generally drove it with the tonneau on. and ill have to disagree with ya! its been done over and over with regards to wind tunnel testing. there is more drag with the tail gate down. its been well proven time and again. read up on the physics of why that is. http//www.hellerauto.com/faqs.htm http//horsepowersports.com/gas-mileage-and-pickup-tailgates/ http//www.looksmarttrucks.com/p/articles/miqa3828/is200405/ain9439015 got any wind tunnel tests proving otherwise a tonneau cover can help mpg. .

From : tbone

this whole argument is meaningless and depending on given situations either case can be true. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving clare at snyder.on.ca wrote well ill have to dissagree. on a longbed pickup tailgate down or off does make a measurable difference. so does a tonneau cover. on some shortboxes the difference is less pronounced but on my old fargo short box it made almost 4mpg difference at highway speeds. i generally drove it with the tonneau on. and ill have to disagree with ya! its been done over and over with regards to wind tunnel testing. there is more drag with the tail gate down. its been well proven time and again. read up on the physics of why that is. http//www.hellerauto.com/faqs.htm http//horsepowersports.com/gas-mileage-and-pickup-tailgates/ http//www.looksmarttrucks.com/p/articles/miqa3828/is200405/ain9439015 got any wind tunnel tests proving otherwise a tonneau cover can help mpg. .

From : miles

tbone wrote this whole argument is meaningless and depending on given situations either case can be true. not usually. in almost all cases dropping the tailgate will increase drag. however most tests done indicate the difference is not enough to see a change in mpg. .

From : tbone

wind tunnel tests do not always give the complete picture. unless these tests are done with all of the modifications people tend to do to their trucks such as adding bug deflectors bed mounted spare tires leveling kits roll bars ect all these wind tunnel test can show is what a basic stock truck can will do in perfect conditions. i am sure that by design and in stock form empty and under somewhat perfect conditions the truck will always do better with the tailgate up but that is not real world. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving tbone wrote this whole argument is meaningless and depending on given situations either case can be true. not usually. in almost all cases dropping the tailgate will increase drag. however most tests done indicate the difference is not enough to see a change in mpg. .

From : roy

the thing roy is that most people dont drive in wind tunnels and from what i see seldom in completely stock trucks either. i agree that in base stock form it is unusual for the truck to do better with the tailgate down as this was done by design. but if you change the angle of the truck put something in the bed add a bug deflector or perhaps an external sun visor now you are changing the aerodynamics of the vehicle and the airflow into the bed can be significantly changed. i guess hendrick will be calling you at any time for you expertise in air flow.g roy -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving tbone wrote this whole argument is meaningless and depending on given situations either case can be true. not usually. in almost all cases dropping the tailgate will increase drag. however most tests done indicate the difference is not enough to see a change in mpg. miles has been on the money about this imo. ive not heard of any wind tunnel test that suggest a lessening of drag with the tail gate down or removed. roy .

From : miles

tbone wrote wind tunnel tests do not always give the complete picture. unless these tests are done with all of the modifications people tend to do to their trucks such as adding bug deflectors bed mounted spare tires leveling kits roll bars ect all these wind tunnel test can show is what a basic stock truck can will do in perfect conditions. i am sure that by design and in stock form empty and under somewhat perfect conditions the truck will always do better with the tailgate up but that is not real world. such modifications may reduce drag over all but the tail gate down will still increase drag rather than decrease it. .

From : miles

tbone wrote lol and your proof of this is where geez. you made the statement that various addons to a truck would change the aerodynamics and possibly make the tailgate down reduce drage. where is your proof on that fact is tbone you completely took a wild guess with no basis. wind tunnel tests have been done on far more than just stock trucks. tests have been done for effects of tonneau covers campers camper shells and more. its not proof you want. its your defense to making statements that are just guesses. .

From : tbone

tbone wrote wind tunnel tests do not always give the complete picture. unless these tests are done with all of the modifications people tend to do to their trucks such as adding bug deflectors bed mounted spare tires leveling kits roll bars ect all these wind tunnel test can show is what a basic stock truck can will do in perfect conditions. i am sure that by design and in stock form empty and under somewhat perfect conditions the truck will always do better with the tailgate up but that is not real world. such modifications may reduce drag over all but the tail gate down will still increase drag rather than decrease it. lol and your proof of this is where -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

tbone wrote i am sure than in some of these cases these things did work. the tornado has a valid design and if an intake system is not well designed the vortex it creates could improve intake efficiency and cause an increase in hp and mileage. will it happen in every vehicle of course not but to say it will never happen is just being ignorant. hmm...how many cars has the tornado been proved effective at increasing mpg i know of only ones that it has been proved ineffective. know any examples with credible testing nope but then again i have no desire to purchase one so why would i bother sure it can and i never said anything different but then again that is in line with the airflow not counting turbulence crosswinds or changes to the airflow over the vehicle due to customer add-ons. those customer add-ons have been tested for their effects in wind tunnel testing. and you can prove this how and what exactly were they tested for a bug for deflector for example is tested to make sure is creates enough airflow to keep the bugs off of the window and they could care less about if it would effect mileage with regards to the position of the tailgate. the same can probably be said for anything. the wind tunnel tests done on them if any are done to make sure that they will hold up and not cause the vehicle to become uncontrollable not mileage with regards to the tailgate position. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : roy

the thing roy is that most people dont drive in wind tunnels and from what i see seldom in completely stock trucks either. i agree that in base stock form it is unusual for the truck to do better with the tailgate down as this was done by design. but if you change the angle of the truck put something in the bed add a bug deflector or perhaps an external sun visor now you are changing the aerodynamics of the vehicle and the airflow into the bed can be significantly changed. i guess hendrick will be calling you at any time for you expertise in air flow.g lol i am far from an expert in airflow but with the infinite possibilities that the customer can come up with to alter the airflow from that of when the truck was built it is silly to make a statement that the tailgate up will always do better. show me a test that shows a truck will do better with it down. roy roy -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving tbone wrote this whole argument is meaningless and depending on given situations either case can be true. not usually. in almost all cases dropping the tailgate will increase drag. however most tests done indicate the difference is not enough to see a change in mpg. miles has been on the money about this imo. ive not heard of any wind tunnel test that suggest a lessening of drag with the tail gate down or removed. roy .

From : tbone

the thing roy is that most people dont drive in wind tunnels and from what i see seldom in completely stock trucks either. i agree that in base stock form it is unusual for the truck to do better with the tailgate down as this was done by design. but if you change the angle of the truck put something in the bed add a bug deflector or perhaps an external sun visor now you are changing the aerodynamics of the vehicle and the airflow into the bed can be significantly changed. i guess hendrick will be calling you at any time for you expertise in air flow.g lol i am far from an expert in airflow but with the infinite possibilities that the customer can come up with to alter the airflow from that of when the truck was built it is silly to make a statement that the tailgate up will always do better. roy -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving tbone wrote this whole argument is meaningless and depending on given situations either case can be true. not usually. in almost all cases dropping the tailgate will increase drag. however most tests done indicate the difference is not enough to see a change in mpg. miles has been on the money about this imo. ive not heard of any wind tunnel test that suggest a lessening of drag with the tail gate down or removed. roy .

From : miles

tbone wrote the wind tunnel tests done on them if any are done to make sure that they will hold up and not cause the vehicle to become uncontrollable not mileage with regards to the tailgate position. what complete bull. wind tunnels tests are routinely done on vehicles to measure drag coefficients along with a host of other issues. it depends on the market the manufacture is aiming for as to which issue is of more importance than another for a particular vehicle. .

From : tbone

tbone wrote the wind tunnel tests done on them if any are done to make sure that they will hold up and not cause the vehicle to become uncontrollable not mileage with regards to the tailgate position. what complete bull. wind tunnels tests are routinely done on vehicles to measure drag coefficients along with a host of other issues. yes they are as they come from the factory not with every consuer add-on available and if you think they do show me some. it depends on the market the manufacture is aiming for as to which issue is of more importance than another for a particular vehicle. on this we agree and the manufacturer of a bug deflector has a primary concern of keeping bugs off of the window not mileage with regards to the tailgate and i doubt any wind tunnel tests are done at all for a rear mounted spare tire carrier or a roll bar. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

the thing roy is that most people dont drive in wind tunnels and from what i see seldom in completely stock trucks either. i agree that in base stock form it is unusual for the truck to do better with the tailgate down as this was done by design. but if you change the angle of the truck put something in the bed add a bug deflector or perhaps an external sun visor now you are changing the aerodynamics of the vehicle and the airflow into the bed can be significantly changed. i guess hendrick will be calling you at any time for you expertise in air flow.g lol i am far from an expert in airflow but with the infinite possibilities that the customer can come up with to alter the airflow from that of when the truck was built it is silly to make a statement that the tailgate up will always do better. show me a test that shows a truck will do better with it down. nope dont have to. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : roy

the thing roy is that most people dont drive in wind tunnels and from what i see seldom in completely stock trucks either. i agree that in base stock form it is unusual for the truck to do better with the tailgate down as this was done by design. but if you change the angle of the truck put something in the bed add a bug deflector or perhaps an external sun visor now you are changing the aerodynamics of the vehicle and the airflow into the bed can be significantly changed. i guess hendrick will be calling you at any time for you expertise in air flow.g lol i am far from an expert in airflow but with the infinite possibilities that the customer can come up with to alter the airflow from that of when the truck was built it is silly to make a statement that the tailgate up will always do better. show me a test that shows a truck will do better with it down. nope dont have to. i guess if that is your answer..... .

From : max dodge

show me a test that shows a truck will do better with it down. roy iirc there was one done with a 94-02 ram that showed it did better with the gate up. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author the thing roy is that most people dont drive in wind tunnels and from what i see seldom in completely stock trucks either. i agree that in base stock form it is unusual for the truck to do better with the tailgate down as this was done by design. but if you change the angle of the truck put something in the bed add a bug deflector or perhaps an external sun visor now you are changing the aerodynamics of the vehicle and the airflow into the bed can be significantly changed. i guess hendrick will be calling you at any time for you expertise in air flow.g lol i am far from an expert in airflow but with the infinite possibilities that the customer can come up with to alter the airflow from that of when the truck was built it is silly to make a statement that the tailgate up will always do better. show me a test that shows a truck will do better with it down. roy roy -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving tbone wrote this whole argument is meaningless and depending on given situations either case can be true. not usually. in almost all cases dropping the tailgate will increase drag. however most tests done indicate the difference is not enough to see a change in mpg. miles has been on the money about this imo. ive not heard of any wind tunnel test that suggest a lessening of drag with the tail gate down or removed. roy .

From : tbone

what aftermarket items and modifications were done to the trucks i already said that in most if not all cases that a bone stock truck will do better with the tailgate up but not all trucks remain this way. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving show me a test that shows a truck will do better with it down. roy iirc there was one done with a 94-02 ram that showed it did better with the gate up. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author the thing roy is that most people dont drive in wind tunnels and from what i see seldom in completely stock trucks either. i agree that in base stock form it is unusual for the truck to do better with the tailgate down as this was done by design. but if you change the angle of the truck put something in the bed add a bug deflector or perhaps an external sun visor now you are changing the aerodynamics of the vehicle and the airflow into the bed can be significantly changed. i guess hendrick will be calling you at any time for you expertise in air flow.g lol i am far from an expert in airflow but with the infinite possibilities that the customer can come up with to alter the airflow from that of when the truck was built it is silly to make a statement that the tailgate up will always do better. show me a test that shows a truck will do better with it down. roy roy -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving tbone wrote this whole argument is meaningless and depending on given situations either case can be true. not usually. in almost all cases dropping the tailgate will increase drag. however most tests done indicate the difference is not enough to see a change in mpg. miles has been on the money about this imo. ive not heard of any wind tunnel test that suggest a lessening of drag with the tail gate down or removed. roy .

From : tbone

tbone wrote lol and your proof of this is where geez. you made the statement that various addons to a truck would change the aerodynamics and possibly make the tailgate down reduce drage. where is your proof on that fact is tbone you completely took a wild guess with no basis. yep that is exactly what it is and backed up be the numerous claims by many that dropping their tailgates improved mileage despite your wind tunnel tests. saying that simple wind tunnel tests of basically stock vehicles are the absolute answer is in a word idiotic. wind tunnel tests have been done on far more than just stock trucks. tests have been done for effects of tonneau covers campers camper shells and more. its not proof you want. its your defense to making statements that are just guesses. no matter how you spin it wind tunnel tests are not real world and what happens in the perfect conditions of a wind tunnel are not what always happens in the real world and i doubt that they test these vehicles with non factory add-on like bug deflectors and rear mounted spare tires. but if you know that they do please provide some links to these tests as i am curious as to the results and what exactly was tested. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : miles

tbone wrote yep that is exactly what it is and backed up be the numerous claims by many that dropping their tailgates improved mileage despite your wind tunnel tests. saying that simple wind tunnel tests of basically stock vehicles are the absolute answer is in a word idiotic. people have claimed adding a tornado magnets and other gizmos have increased their mpg as well. think they really did doubtful. people will find what they are looking for. no matter how you spin it wind tunnel tests are not real world bull. are you aware that new airplane designs are completely tested on computer models and partial structural wind tunnel testing if they dont represent the real world then how the heck do they test new airplanes such as the new a380 that flew its first flight without trouble....after scores of wind tunnel testing to prove its airworthiness. wind tunnels tests certainly can and do prove a vehicles drag coefficient. .

From : miles

snoman wrote while a wind tunnel can be used to calculate some drag it cann work as accurately as it does for a aircraft because aircfat only suffers from aerodynamic drag anf lift losses while a car has more varible in the overall formula. also a aircrafts motion is always into the wind as to relative motion once it is airborne if in a cross wind it will drift with it and adjust course for it while a vehicle can experiaince wind drag for all angles and some of which may produce increased drag vs pure frontal air flow. who says wind tunnel testing on cars is only done from pure frontal air flow .

From : snoman

on thu 04 may 2006 203035 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote bull. are you aware that new airplane designs are completely tested on computer models and partial structural wind tunnel testing if they dont represent the real world then how the heck do they test new airplanes such as the new a380 that flew its first flight without trouble....after scores of wind tunnel testing to prove its airworthiness. wind tunnels tests certainly can and do prove a vehicles drag coefficient. while a wind tunnel can be used to calculate some drag it cann work as accurately as it does for a aircraft because aircfat only suffers from aerodynamic drag anf lift losses while a car has more varible in the overall formula. also a aircrafts motion is always into the wind as to relative motion once it is airborne if in a cross wind it will drift with it and adjust course for it while a vehicle can experiaince wind drag for all angles and some of which may produce increased drag vs pure frontal air flow. ----------------- the snoman www.thesnoman.com .