Doctors versus Technicians
From : brent d
Q: i have been reading a couple of your posts about dealership and shit all i can say is that my hat is off to the dealership mechanics most of the time they do receive great training and are very helpful. i have never had warranty work mainly because i keep my truck maintained. i did take my older dakota to get the transmission overhauled it was costly but the truck ran great and is still lasting. i dont care to pay the money as long as it for good quality work. keep up the good work brent. john in a simple nutshell i will try to explain the antics of a dealership service department. i can not explain poor dealerships with questionable techncians this is for you to determine. i simply hope my explanation helps you understand why a dealer does what it does. a dealer is monitored by the manufacturer as to how many repairs it does. if a dealer does one particular repair more than other dealers of the same size and zone then a restriction is placed on them for that repair. this is not right but it happens. this can result in a service manager instructing their technicians not to recognize that particular problem to eliminate the restrictions. i would hope that any dealer would ignore these restrictions if the repairs pertained to safety. as many have suggested a dealer will not recognize a problem with the vehicle until it is out of warranty. now you know why. your problem is with chrysler not the dealer. as for an independant repair shop charging less; bullcrap. as a customer you simply picked up the phone and found a shop that charges less per hour. what sense does it make if an independant charges less per hour but charges you more hours because they are not familiar with the vehicle flat rate is a guideline - not a law. a dealership may charge more per hour but charge less hours since they can diagnose the vehicle quicker. this is easy to understand since they are more familiar with that vehicle and its common fallacies. this also does not account for the thousands of dollars per month that a dealer spends on special tools to peform the repairs quicker and more precisely. one individual suggested they had been in a dealer and saw a large amount of dust on the special tools. he could not be more correct. not every tool is used every day what tools are used is determined by the failure rate of specific vehicles. perhaps this individual should spend more attention on their shop than the dealers. one thing to remember is this; unlike an independent a dealer has the right to not use a special tool because at least they have it if they need it. brent master ase and gold certified chrysler technician john....even that is being takin away we used to be able to sign up for any class that we felt we needed training with.. how long has the pacifica been out the 300c i have not since been to those classes. now you get a car in on a wait basis with a problem and watch the customer yell because they have to wait so long for us not only to figure the system out but then to diagnios it and all that..... brent why did you get me started!!!!! glenn beasley chrysler tech glenn you can get into most any class quickly however your sm has to be proactive. he needs to put you on an interest list on dealer connect for the classes you want. then he needs to monitor dmail daily and wait for the class to pop up and then he needs to enroll you immediately as soon as the class becomes available. its a pita but its the only way i know to get your techs in on the new classes. they have changed certification requirements for 05 so your sm may have more of an incentive now to make sure that he has at least one tech qualified in each skill area. mike chryco service manager member sae mike if it is true that techs are told not to recognize certain problems hats off to glenn cause he cant be blinded how do i get the service i expect from a dealers shop they fixed a leaky valve cover gasket leaking again now and those plugs on the passenger side above the exhaust ports about 16 months ago. im about to put it in the shop again for the valve cover gasket again. im sure they will recognize that. it needs to be repaired warrantee or not. the 03 ho doesnt have the pep it once had just under 60k on it. is this normal or should it be checked out if it is checked out how do i know wether or not they will recognize any problem it is a trust issue i believe. do i straight out ask him if it is on the non-recognition list -- fmb only one b in fmb first of all there is no non-recognition list per se. what happens is that each dealer is compared to other similar sized dealers with similar franchises in similar climates. presumably every dealer should do about the same number of warranty repairs per vehicle all things being equal. also the different areas of concern i.e engine transmi
Replies:
From : jerry
is it kosher to ask about ram vans here -andy andrew burton - tuglyraisin at aol dot com felecia station on harvestgain - jarod godel in second life .
From : patrick prafke
tom lawrence wrote so if you read carefully you see you can add atf+4 to atf+3 but you cannot add atf+3 to atf+4. in other words once you completely change over to atf+4 there is no going back unless of course you can drain 100% of the fluid out first. i think its poorly worded but i think they meant to say that you cant use +3 in any components that were originally designed for +4. well it does appear to be poorly worded but i wasnt aware there was a actual design change that called for the atf+4. i thought the atf+4 was just a better quality fluid. could be the complete change to atf+4 creates a condition in the transmission that is hard on the components if changed back to atf+3. dont know but there seems to be something there. bottom line to me is if the transmission already has atf+3 then there is no reason to change to a much more expensive transmission fluid if not needed. especially when there are several manufactures selling atf+3 and only one controlling atf+4. jerry .
From : maxpower
on tue 8 feb 2005 111725 -0500 steve w. dugdug56@what.com wrote the ceramics start as powder. they are then heated and fused into a solid sintered shoe. on pads this is ok since they dont flex. on shoes the backer plates flex when you apply the brakes. i would bet your truck has semi-metallic on the front and rear. on my ford that i used to wn - an aerostar i found the only way to get more than a year out of the pads and more than a set of pads out of the rotors and get some decent stopping power at the same time was to install carbon metallic pads. before the carbon metallics there was no way i could lock the front wheels on dry pavement. this meant the rear brakes locked first in a hard panic type stop and the crude anti-lock shut the rear brakes off. with c/m pads i could stop much shorter. i towed a trailer on occaision and with the c/m pads the brakes did not fade and i did not have to depend as heavilly on the trailer brakes. i could replace a worn set of pads after about 2 years and still have useable rotors - i skimmed them 2 times for 3 sets of pads on one set of rotors. factory semi-metallic pads screwed up the rotors even before tha pads were worn out and generally the pads came apart with lots of lining thickness left live in the salt belt in less than 2 years. they would be so badly pitted they were beyond turning. when i was with toyota in the seventies and eighties they went from asbestos pads to semi metalic with brass and then to a sintered pad that was high in iron. the pads stuck to a magnet almost as well from the lining side as from the back. then we started having rotor problems in a big way. i always replaced with the brass formulated pads if they were available to fit the vehicle all corollas most celicas and some others at the timeand the customers thanked me. eventually the brass formula pads were no longer available - and by that time i had left the dealership. as for organic pads you may as well put on a chunk of masonite or use the box they came in - youd get almost the same life well thats stretching it a bit but. i wont even put them on a car im getting rid of just to pass the safety check. .
From : aarcuda69062
thanks to those who replied to my posting about removing the transmission line. new problem. fortunately this occured before i dropped the pan. i went to dodge and picked up my atf. i told them i own a 2000 dakota r/t with a 46re transmission. they said that i needed atf+4 so $60 later i leave with 3 gallons of atf+4. i pull the dipstick i know i know i should have done it first and it says fill with atf+ 7176. which is atf+3... i check my dodge service manual and it does indeed say atf+3.... i know that atf+4 is better than atf+3 but i also heard that atf+4 is no longer recommended for atf+3 transmissions. with me price isnt the issue reliability is. so do i..... return the atf+4 and fill with atf+3 or fill with atf+4 i saw the guy punch up the codes into the computer so i know that unless the change was recent and my local dodge dealer didnt update their computer ma mopar wants me to use atf+4. what is the verdict please tell me it is atf+4 so i dont have to use synthetic from some other company. thanks in advance .
From : tom lawrence
9wnd.4361$oo.2932@read2..atl.earthlink.net tom lawrence tnloaswpraemnmcien5g@earthlink.net wrote as far as malpractice and repeat testing at the doctors office. not many people pay attention to the fact that both of those are why the insurance is so high. even with deductables. i dont have incurance on my 4 year old because it is so high. but thats my problem i guess. as for the technisions part of this. i expect more from the doctors as far as tests also why i cant buy a new me if it gets to screwed up. and the only thing humons have done in the last 100000+ years is get taller smarter and older. - well as far as evalution has done. i hope i didnt affend anybody just thaught my half cent would be fun to post. i think this will help http//tinyurl.com/3qq8e good one! .
From : patrick prafke
mike simmons mikesim@yhti.net wrote ooooo..... ooooooo....... oooooo can i answer that one can i...... can i can i puleeeze call on me! ;^ mike since brent is so full of boast it would be better if he answered. then again its been almost 12 hours so i guess its safe to assume that the answer isnt on the tip of his tongue. .
From : maxpower
brent if i am not mistaken there are companies who make replacement panels for virtually any panel that may be missing. iirc there is a company called schott panels that makes resto parts for old ferds. also if you can get a copy of hemmings motor there are usually a multitude of companies that offer resto parts for old ferds. that being said probably your best resource is right here on the net or perhaps there is a ng that is dedicated to old ferd trucks. hope this helps! mike -------------------------------------------------------- thanks mike. ill check into these sights. appreciate the advice. brent .
From : nosey
on sun 6 feb 2005 134325 -0700 drgn1400@webtv.net brent d wrote there is plenty of training available to the independent shops that is equal to or better than the stuff provided by the oems. the sublet -might- increase the bill but it still wouldnt necessarily be higher than what the bill might have been had the customer gone to the dealership service department instead of the independent. are you claiming that you dont flag any extra time for re-flashing a tcm or pcm if the job does come into -your- dealership then there would be more good independents also no ----------------------------------------------------- how do you judge that your training is better this would be a hard claim to substantiate. remember that aftermarket training on a vehicle is released long after the dealership technicians have fought long and hard to discover manufacturing flaws that are simply given to the independants. people assume that dealer techs have the advantage of tsbs to repair vehicles how false. remember the information provided in the tsbs that you use were discovered primarily by technicians who discovered the issues and provided information to chrysler. this is a claim an independant can not make. this simply means a dealer tech works his ass off for a loss in pay so and independant can receive his information for next to nothing in the form of a tsb. you should be thanking the dealers. as for telling an independant no thank you; i wont do that. they are still a fellow technician and i never turn my back on them. i just hope they remember that a dealer helped them and asked for nothing in return. yes i charge customers for reprograms. it is considered into the module replacement. at the dealer it may only cost an extra .2 hours while you will pay the dealer to have it done at the minimum shop rate of .5 or 1.0. this will make your bill higher. brent ase and gold certified chrysler technician brent just curious. are you related to tbone .
From : brent d
moses you commented that my posting about independants/dealers was full of crap yet offered no information to the contrary. many times i have seen independents sublet their customers car to the dealer for a reprogram enter vins after pcm replacements enter tire sizes or quicklearn a tcm. doesnt this sublet increase your customers bill now the customer is paying for your time and the dealers. a dealer simply takes care of these issues as part of the repair. i agree with mike i have wasted many hours in the past talking with independents wanting free information or gathering tools so they could borrow them. you made the vague comment that the dealers constant training doesnt help them fix cars - thats crap. it stands to logic if there is a set percentage of bad technicians just say 10% of all are bad then most are in independets since there are more independants than dealers. brent master ase and gold certified chrysler technician .
From : brent d
more questions. with the hemi what trans comes with it any problems w/it can you use regular gas or does it require 93 doubtful i will go gas but id like to know cover the options. if you do decide to go with the gasser why not go all the way and get a power wagon the lack of a diesel counts it out for me but if you decide to get a hemi truck anyway the equipment list is amazing. .
From : jerry
i just bought a new 2005 3500 with the turbo 600. ill let ya know if something happens.. whats the mileage range of the failures -- moparman---remove clothes to reply! --scud coordinates 32.61204 north 96.92993 west-- ----------------------------------------------------- mileage does not seem to matter. ive replaced injectors on trucks with only 1500 miles all the way to 80000 miles. if these injectors appear to be limited to this region i will be leaning torward possible poor fuel quality. brent master ase and gold certified chrysler technician .
From : maxpower
mike simmons wrote brent d wrote in a simple nutshell i will try to explain the antics of a dealership service department. i can not explain poor dealerships with questionable techncians this is for you to determine. i simply hope my explanation helps you understand why a dealer does what it does. a dealer is monitored by the manufacturer as to how many repairs it does. if a dealer does one particular repair more than other dealers of the same size and zone then a restriction is placed on them for that repair. this is not right but it happens. this can result in a service manager instructing their technicians not to recognize that particular problem to eliminate the restrictions. i would hope that any dealer would ignore these restrictions if the repairs pertained to safety. as many have suggested a dealer will not recognize a problem with the vehicle until it is out of warranty. now you know why. your problem is with chrysler not the dealer. the problem is with both. as for an independant repair shop charging less; bullcrap. as a customer you simply picked up the phone and found a shop that charges less per hour. what sense does it make if an independant charges less per hour but charges you more hours because they are not familiar with the vehicle what a load of crap. the independent went to the same trade school you did. au contraire moses! while the tech may have attended the same trade school it is the ongoing training that is the difference. a dealership tech attends many more hours of vehicle specific classes than an independent tech does. mike you may be right there but it doesnt seem to help them with repairs. jam i know it may seem that way but the automotive service industry is one of the most technically challenging you will find. it aint easy repairing vehicles today. i would challenge anyone who is interested to come and spend a week in my or one of my techs shoes.... i think you would change your tune and maybe have a new respect for what we are up against. mike .
From : hank
i cant do another winter without 4x4. this was the first in almost 30 years. the lightning with blizzaks all around was good but... i havent kept up much with new things beyond 2000. what is the way to go has to be a cummins. although ill hang a plow on it i wont be doing much residential plowing so a standard would fit as well as the auto. im also torn between a 2500 and a 3500. in case i should buy a fifth wheel i want to be able to haul it. any thoughts mike tom rabbit anybody roy more questions. with the hemi what trans comes with it any problems w/it can you use regular gas or does it require 93 doubtful i will go gas but id like to know cover the options. iirc the 48re is also with the gas motors and has been trouble free. the 5.7 runs on the 87 octane fuel. so i can save 20+cents a gallon. furry face thought of another reason why it has to be srw. duallys use a 9 blade too much up front for a comfort margin. go to plowsite.com and youll read that using the 9 footers or the blizzard blades that extend from 8ft to 10 ft are becoming the new rage. you just have to give up the notions that come with old age and get with the new programs.. vbg i was on that site a year or so ago and those plows were plagued with problems. alwys remember in the cold and snow at 4am kiss also my friend you gotta be careful what you talk about on a public group. some of the ladies that frequent here may take the too much up front for a comfort statement to mean something else other than your belly that i know youre talking about..... gbmfg well nothing wrong with a little self promotion. i see pretty much the same thing with all this certification silver this and gold that other stuff in sigs maybe ill joinem.gbfg roy ff roy .
From : brent d
when this happens the service manager is required to sign off on all restricted repairs to make sure that they are truly required. does this make sense i hope i explained it in a way you can understand. mike ------------------------------------------------------ i suppose i may have been unclear on this matter. a technician is not instructed to not recognize a repair when that was the customers original complaint. it only applies to upselling that which the customer was unaware of. example a customer comes in to have a leak repaired on their transmission. the technician at that time notices the engine oil pan is also leaking. a service manager at that point may instruct the technician not to say anything about the engine oil pan leak because they are on restiction for them. this is not the fault of the service manager or technician. a service manager must allow some needed repairs to go unnoticed in the hopes of chrysler will stay off the departments back. unfortunately this makes the service department look bad. the fallacy in having a service manager sign off on needed repairs is that not all service managers are mechanically smart. some managers are number crunchers while others are former technicians. a good technician can convince a number cruncher that any repair is needed and get the sign off anyway. this is where chryslers policy falls short of accomplishing anything. brent master ase and gold certified chrysler technician .
From : brent d
ever since the release of the new cummins common rail i have been repairing many of its issues with a new injector or two. a majority of the injectors i have replaced were either in cylinders 3 or 4. i just wanted to know from others if this is a common issue or maybe localized to the region i work. any feedback on this issue is appreciated as i am looking for the cause of these failures rather than the correction of them. brent master ase and gold certified chrysler technician .
From : nosey
your answer is no. these features were not offered. you are on your own. steve my 04 1500 quad hemi didnt come with an ashtray light or a light under the hood. are there any factory add ons i could get to accomplish this. the glove box has a light however. hopefully the wires for such are already in place. thanks howard .
From : beekeep
on sat 5 feb 2005 215517 -0500 mrii@webtv.net mrudy wrote i had a chrysler concorde serviced by the dealer who told me some things werent due for service while others were and i felt comfortable with his conclusions based on my basic knowledge of autos. i also spent some money to have a few other things done because i trusted them from the prior experience. however i had a dodge dakota back to its dealer and they told me it was repaired for the same problem 5 times just weeks apart. repeatedly they would return the truck not repaired.warranty they never got me to pay for service or recommend them. what .
From : bigironram
i had a chrysler concorde serviced by the dealer who told me some things werent due for service while others were and i felt comfortable with his conclusions based on my basic knowledge of autos. i also spent some money to have a few other things done because i trusted them from the prior experience. however i had a dodge dakota back to its dealer and they told me it was repaired for the same problem 5 times just weeks apart. repeatedly they would return the truck not repaired.warranty they never got me to pay for service or recommend them. .
From : patrick prafke
ok not to continue a flame war that has gone on here and wow its going. as far as malpractice and repeat testing at the doctors office. not many people pay attention to the fact that both of those are why the insurance is so high. even with deductables. i dont have incurance on my 4 year old because it is so high. but thats my problem i guess. as for the technisions part of this. i expect more from the doctors as far as tests also why i cant buy a new me if it gets to screwed up. and the only thing humons have done in the last 100000+ years is get taller smarter and older. - well as far as evalution has done. i hope i didnt affend anybody just thaught my half cent would be fun to post. and you did a good job ....posting partick -- if your going to do somthing stupid might as well be smart about it!!! you apparently dont know me. i have bitched to doctors lawyers and indian chiefs. i feel one of the nations biggest problems is the fact people are too easy. they know little so they dont bitch enough and would rather accept what is told to them rather than research it and find out they have been duped. the majority of people would rather pay the bill than have a confrontation. on the flip side i praise the people that treat me fairly and honestly. i spread the word on their performance trying to get them more business and such. i have wrote letters to their bosses commending them as well as complaint letters if they screw up. if people would complain/praise more this would be a better world. i call them as i see them. hank masterbitcher - ------------------------------------------------------ i respect that line of thought. its good to see that there are still those out that that repect a job well done yet stand firm when done wrong. this line of thought only works when a person applies it in all aspects of their life as you have not just their vehicle. brent master ase and gold certified chrysler technician .
From : nosey
i looked at the figures. gotta stay with the cummins. whew... i was worried for a minute .