Better milage while using premium fuel...
From : mwarren
Q: premium fuel does nothing chip or no chip to improve fuel economy. mike 2001 1500 5.2l not mine but curious if youre burning premium fuel all the time anyway would it be beneficial to install a chip or other modification designed for premium fuel i dont know that much about perf chips but from my understanding they are designed to get the most out of premium fuel... but will it on an 01. any advice appreciated.. it seems that opinions on these things vary widely. matt .
Replies:
From : james sedwick
take a piece of string and run the string the way the belt should run...minus the a/c of course...then subtract 1.5 inches to accomodate the tensioner...now take the string to advance auto parts and tell them what happened..theyll look up the correct belt to get the rib size then measure the string for the proper length. hope this helps! sed my trucks ac compressor started smoking and making noise. the belt broke off also. the compressors wheel has frozen. the truck is a 1996 ram 2500 4x4 with the 360 5.9l v8 i would like to bypass the ac unit and use the belt for the non-ac version of my truck. i would like to point out that the ac didnt work in this truck so i dont mind losing the compressor i can always fix it later. i know i will probably have to remove the acs flywheel. anything else is all this possible the truck is at a job site so i will try the repair with limited tools any tools that are a must have please post reply here and thanks a lot for your advice. .
From : big al
lawrence tnloaswpraemnmcien5g@earthlink.net writes beyond that i think you need to get it to someone with more advanced diagnostic equipment. thanks tom. ill look for the cc cleaner tomorrow. im sure the dealer would have it but theyre a little off my beaten trail. hoping to maybe find it at autozone pep boys or oreilly. .
From : snoman
so 20000 trailers of supplies sitting behind federal red tape fema is a result of local and state government not requesting help sooner werent you done with this .
From : Annonymous
big al wrote big al wrote every 318 or 360 i ave ever owned 3 360s or driven over a dozen pinged a little or in the case of the 2000s and 2001s a lot. i didnt buy a 2000 ram and that was one of the main reason. bdk 2003 hemi ram.. ive only owned two. a 90 and a 92. both pinged until i put colder plugs in. the 92 tows everything and has most of its life. i run 87 in it and it never pings. with the factory plugs it would ping under medium power output. give it more or less throttle and it would quit. al 92 w250 360 5 speed. when you put in colder plug you are in effect retarding the spped of spread of the flame after ignition and reducing engine efficency. you may have think you cured it but your cure is costing you in fuel consumption and give that with today price that better fuel can be bought for a mere 2 or 3% more way would you insist on still using the lowest octane fuel you can buy when mpg gains can more than offset the cost where did this info come from im interested in reading it. thanks al why do you think the ping stopped by magic ping is caused by too quick of flame speed spread speed of spread is determined by pressure and tempature of ignition source detenation is caused by the fuel igniting without a spark. by retarding the spark or using a colder plug to can retard the peak pressure and rate of flame spread in relation to piston cycle but when you retard combution process to control ping you loose efficency. man i took this stuff in college when studing for a engineering degree in the late 70s and the physics of the processes in a ic engine have not changed any only some of the methods to control and feed it has. i thought the ping stopped because the tip of the plug was too hot. can you find an article about this how do you tell ping from detonation my trucks both of them had a slight knock when pulling at about 1/4 output. my 92 is a 5 speed and if it started doing it i could stuff it in overdrive and it would quit. whatever changing the plugs did stopped it. ive towed all over the southwest with no problems. i appreciate your answer. im not trying to bust your chops i just would like to read about it. when i first asked about this i was told the plug wires caused it and there was a tsb about some crossfire problems. changed the wires and the problem did not go away. did a google search to see if i could find something revelevent http//www.dansmc.com/sparkplugs/sparkplugscatalog.html http//www.dansmc.com/sparkplugs1.htm http//www.strappe.com/plugs.html http//www.boschusa.com/autoparts/faqs/sparkplugs/ http//corvettefever.com/techarticles/1530503wplug/ http//www.mopar.com/mmaintinspectionplugstune.html http//www.centuryperformance.com/spark.asp http//www.nightrider.com/biketech/spkplghnbook.htm and lots more. none of them mention what your saying al .
From : big al
if you are a resident of n.o. or la yes your government should have done better for a concise time-line of how badly the mayor and governor screwed up http//rightwingnuthouse.com/archives/2005/09/04/katrina-response-timeline to see how effectively the n.o. school systems bus fleet was used to evac those without transportation go here http//billhobbs.com/hobbsonline/007188.html fema is not a first responder............................... i made my point. our government could have done and should have done better. the details of how are widely debatable. i already expended all of the debate fuel i had in reserve with max. sorry. ; craig c. .
From : big al
im not so sure there isnt enough oil to last forever. well at least for the foreseeable future. however the limitations are getting it out of the ground and refining it into the various products we use. these are huge limitations at this point that we need to address immediately by additional drilling for our own resources and new refineries. it wont help today or tomorrow but a few years down the road. on thu 01 sep 2005 032006 gmt tbone t-bonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote now steve stop confusing max and miles with such things as facts. as long as they keep their heads in the sand everything is fine and there is enough oil to last forever at an ever increasing rate of consumption. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving from ft.com today us gasoline futures surged to a record high on wednesday after the department of energy reported a 500000 barrel drop in gasoline inventories to 194.4m barrels as stocks fell for a ninth week in succession. this was through august 26 before katrina. .
From : trey
topcop is that a dc part number fred i located the top piece that is cracked. dealers will tell you the whole dash has to be replaced at a cost of at least $800.00. but a dealer here in tampa fl. will sell just the top piece which they say theyve replaced many. i just need to know how far i have to disassemble the dash to get the top piece in. by the way the part is $194.00 and is part #5gk45rc8ab and comes in black or grey. .
From : bob
yep thats right. since roy posted about the gas prices going up prices in this area went from $2.54 on monday to $2.69 on tuesday to $3.10 today. i figure we all should head east if we have the bucks for the gas hunt down ole roy and stick his head in one of his beagle holes. vbfg denny .
From : tom lawrence
liberally apply jb weld to the bottom of the pump. press the plate to the jb weld. use the ties to secure the plate. ted...what are you on what in the heck are you talking about ok i know the name jb weld is like drawing nails across a blackboard with some people but heres my reasoning. reread the original post. heres the operative sentence last night i finally took a peek under the van and saw the bottom of the pump casing is bubbly with rust. i can actually watch droplets of power steering fluid form where the rust is the weakest. look at it. hes got a ps pump with a perforated resivor. that means for some time now his ps fluid has probably been contaminated with rust. he also dumped 3 bottles of stop leak into the ps fluid. so his rack right now is filled with ps fluid rust and stop leak crap. plus that hes got so much salt water coming up from below as to saturate the bottom of the vehicle to the point that its rotted out the bottom of the ps pump. can you imagine for a second what the bottom of the rest of the van looks like what the rack itself looks like to really do this job right would mean tearing out the pump and the rack and all hoses and just throwing everything in the trash and and replacing everything with new stuff. it is not in my opinion very smart to hook up a brand new ps pump to a rack thats full of crappy ps fluid that may or may not be contaminated with salt water almost certainly has a good load of rust in it plus 3 bottles of stop leak crap and pump all that crud into the new pump. far better to band-aid the existing pump for a few years and eventually its either going to finish rotting out completely or hes going to end up with an inner tie rod thats hashed and will need a new rack anyway then he can just replace everything then. if you see a flaw with this reasoning then please explain it. maybe im too pessimistic but i just cant believe with a ps pump that has the bottom rusted out of it that the inside of his rack is pristine. he can probably do a rube goldberg thing on the ps pump with jb weld in an hour without taking anything apart. that will nurse the pump along to allow him to wring the last few miles out of the rack itself then when the rack blows chunks he can do everything all at once. ted ted my opinion. the power steering pump sits over the top of the right axle. which means salt water and what ever else is hitting the bottom of the resorvoir causing the rust and the leak. me personnally i cant see that kind of water getting into the pump without causing the fluid to be milky. and if your gonna go thru that much trouble to try to seal a leak you may as well take the pump off and replace it with a reman one. if the op takes it off and carries it to pep boys or auto zone im sure they will press the pulley on and off. they should have the shim that is used to get the correct gap for pulley alignment. just a thought! glenn beasley chrysler tech didnt know this was a double post in the dodge group so i will cut and paste what i said in there .
From : snoman
lol a reserve for how long max. these refineries could be down for months and who knows how long it will take to fully repair the infrastructure. and btw they had days not weeks to prepare. um no they had weeks its hurricane season and they knew a week in advance that katrina was coming into the gulf. thus they had at least ten days to figure it out maybe more. im sure they have their own meteorological staff that helps them keep track of such things. as to the damage im still not seeing anything that says the damage was more than minor to these refineries. what kills me is yall act like there are no refineries anywhere else in the u.s. typically dozens of tankers sit waiting for a place to offload. sure and where are they going to offload too its a big country and since texas has terminals as do states along the east coast. if the oil companies felt they had a problem you can bet the tankers would be sent elsewhere to off load. yea a buffer for a few days or even weeks not months. ok so who says itll be months not only do you have to look at the futures market max you actually have to understand it and from what you are saying you dont. ahh yes the ol you dont know what youre talking about and neither do i so ill just insult you and leave my defense of my statements at that. how original. if it were only this simple. it is that simple. first of all the only way that people could drive uip the price this way is if the supplies are limited which according to you they are not. wrong. you obviously dont know how the market works. these people are buying a stake in the future of oil production expecting that their investment will bear a return. they arent buying a supply they are buying and risking on a product yet to be produced. then there is a significant risk of loss driving up the price in a market that has a ready supply because someone else can sell below what you even paid for it is supplies are plentyful. this is only the beginning and i really dont have the time to list out point by point why this is wrong and you really need to do a little reading. i have but it seems you have not. the only thing that i will say that the only way for the futures of something to be driven up like this is because the near future availability of of the item is believed to be in short supply. the key word being believed. the price is always determined by the market max. if people will not pay the price that you want then you lose money. but in the case of fuel they keep buying dont they thus the spiral goes on. the futures market tells me all i need to see. unless supplies in the near future are going to be strained the price cannot be driven up like that and the today backs me up. except for that little word you used believed ..to be in short supply. once again you are completely wrong. 3 refineries are under water and will not be restarting any time soon got a source on this i keep hearing minor damage. there is currently no production in the gulf at all rubbish. 900+ platforms and no production the mars platform is severely damaged and will probably be down for months and an entire 50 million dollar rig is missing. now the president has said that he will tap the strategic reserves which would if the price was driven up by pure speculation cause a major price drop and again that didnt happen. a $2.00 price drop means nothing and today the price held at $70 a barrel. paranoia reins supreme it seems. youre good at listing damage bu say nothing of whats still working. all your info is speculative with no sources listed. ive been watching msn among others and so far no reports on huge oil related damages. there tune has now changed and $2 a barrel doesnt mean shit not when we are up $20. up $20 from what point in time get it yet this rise in price has been long term not just from this week. id like to see you sources on refinery damage. -- max give a man a match and he is warm for a short while. light him on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life. lol unless those reports were written today they really dont mean shit. if the supply is fine as you say why would the president be considering opening some of the national oil reserve some of those reports were written today. find me anything that says there is a shortage of oil. all ive read says theres no shortage just a huge investor pool that likes to speculate. the futures market tells me all i need to see. unless supplies in the near future are going to be strained the price cannot be driven up like that and the today backs me up. as to the president we all know why hes considering it. political favor insurance in keeping a good economy etc. but i doubt itll have any real effect on pump prices since there is plenty of oil to be had. once again you are comple
From : steve w
the gas price rises are because of the futures market. prices have risen rapidly since jan. 1 not just since the hurricane. during that time from jan.1 supplies and stocks have been steady. i would have thought you of all people would be spewing that the corporate run oil companies that make so many reps rich are to blame. oh ya that was last years rants. this year its high demand from greedy reps. well said sarcasm understood. by me anyway...... doubt if tbone will get it..... lol any port in a storm huh maxi. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .
From : bdk
tbone wrote lol unless those reports were written today they really dont mean shit. if the supply is fine as you say why would the president be considering opening some of the national oil reserve a very small amount to help local refineries effected in the region. not to control gas prices which it will not do. if the price is being driven up purely by speculation any release from the stragic oil reserves will just about erase it due to investor fear. you can also add in the fact that unless supplies are already strained there would be no major increase in price due to speculation because the risk level would simply be way to high. if the price was purely based on people in the futures market speculating to drive the price up the possibility of the president opening up the reserves would cause the price to plummet and that didnt happen. no it wont. i think that you need to review the futures market a little bit. that was the dems stupid attempt to lower prices by releasing oil from the reserves a few years back. how much oil do you believe are in the reserves anyways bush has said he may approve releasing to help local refineries effected. not to try to lower prices by increasing supply. geez. i never said that he intended to reduce the cost although doing it would boost the economy. he is doing it because the shortage due to the hurricane is real and is the reason for the sudden jump in prices not just greedy investors. perhaps you missed that hurricane yesterday and the damage it caused to some major supply lines. there are 954 platforms in the gulf coast region. 12 were shut down as of sunday afternoon. as of this morning shell announced that none of its platforms are producing in the gulf. those 954 platforms account for 40% of the domestic oil output. the small amout from the closed platforms is what is to be replaced from the reserves to supply refineries that are otherwise uneffected by the hurricane. and if the transportation network is damaged under water and for the most part unusable where is this oil going to go. there is not enough in the reserves to plummet prices as you seem to believe. yawn investors tend to panic especially if supply is good and is being increased. there does not have to a major addition of supply to cause that to happen. the gas price rises are because of the futures market. and the futures market is based on supply and demand. if the supply exceeds the demand the price does not skyrocket like it has in the past few months. prices have risen rapidly since jan. 1 not just since the hurricane. during that time from jan.1 supplies and stocks have been steady. yea but at just about 100% production levels. i would have thought you of all people would be spewing that the corporate run oil companies that make so many reps rich are to blame. oh ya that was last years rants. this year its high demand from greedy reps. oh stop crying miles. it is a combination of both and not just the reps. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .
From : snoman
miles wrote roy wrote i guess everybody has been watching the coverage. i figure it is time to put some serious troops in with a no bs set of orders. ive heard reports of 20000 to 40000 being deployed by this weekend. its a logistics nightmare to get it all organized. they have been given arrest powers and marshal law has been established in some areas. too bad more people didnt heed the warnings to evacuate. while some couldnt for a variety of reasons i dont think 200000 people have such reasons other than stupidity. i think that govenment was asleep at the switch as usual for last 4+years on this one and only got serious after the fact and bad press. they knew several days before that it could be very very bad and did nothing. they should have pre-deployed 10 to 20000 gaurdsman before the storm just out of the path of the worst of it on east and west sides and had them ready to move in as storm left to maintain law and order and to aid in rescue and flood control. government has really dropped the ball here on this one at state and federal levels because it is not like they had no warning. they could have had things under much better control than they do now if people calling the shots really knew what they were doing. i read that the day after storm that one levee had not failed yet but was weaking and they were going to use army blackhawk choppers to set 3000 lbs sand bags several hundred to shore thing up but some higher up clueless individual deverted the choppers and the levee failed later that day and set back recovery another 1 to 2 month caused untold additional damage and loss of life. -- posted using the http//www.autoforumz.com interface at authors request articles individually checked for conformance to usenet standards topic url http//www.autoforumz.com/dodge-gulf-coast-ftopict136535.html visit topic url to contact author reg. reqd. report abuse http//www.autoforumz.com/eform.phpp=662220 .
From : snoman
tom lawrence wrote a couple of other owners of 1999 dodge durangos it seems they are experiencing the same problem. anybody have any wisdom theyd like to offer help! checked for an intake plenum gasket leak pull the pcv valve out of the valve cover and cover the hole with your thumb. check for vacuum there with the engine running. if you feel vacuum your plenum gasket is leaking and the knocking is from carbon deposits caused by burning oil in the combustion chambers. the fix involved removing the intake manifold replacing the gasket and cleaning the combustion chambers with cc cleaner then changing the plugs as the cc treatment usually fouls em pretty bad what people will do to try to keep using 87 octane in a newer truck. 87 is not enough octane for a modern engine to do its best on a hot day and it is pinging because it is so bad that the ecm cannot retard spark enough to control it. every time the ecm retards spark you lose power and mpg. run a tank of 89 or 93 through it and see and feel the difference and forget about the smoke and mirrors to make 87 work on ahot day. you will like find it cheaper to drive it will better gas too given todays prices and a possible 5 to 10% improvment in mpg from better fuel requiring little or no retarding of the spark. -- posted using the http//www.autoforumz.com interface at authors request articles individually checked for conformance to usenet standards topic url http//www.autoforumz.com/dodge-1999-durango-spark-knock-problem-ftopict136374.html visit topic url to contact author reg. reqd. report abuse http//www.autoforumz.com/eform.phpp=661526 .
From : mwarren
6.13 can higher octane fuels give me more power on modern engines with sophisticated engine management systems the engine can operate efficiently on fuels of a wider range of octane rating but there remains an optimum octane for the engine under specific driving conditions. older cars without such systems are more restricted in their choice of fuel as the engine can not automatically adjust to accommodate lower octane fuel. because knock is so destructive owners of older cars must use fuel that will not knock under the most demanding conditions they encounter and must continue to use that fuel even if they only occasionally require the octane. if you are already using the proper octane fuel you will not obtain more power from higher octane fuels. the engine will be already operating at optimum settings and a higher octane should have no effect on the management system. your drivability and fuel economy will remain the same. the higher octane fuel costs more so you are just throwing money away. if you are already using a fuel with an octane rating slightly below the optimum then using a higher octane fuel will cause the engine management system to move to the optimum settings possibly resulting in both increased power and improved fuel economy. you may be able to change octanes between seasons reduce octane in winter to obtain the most cost-effective fuel without loss of drivability. once you have identified the fuel that keeps the engine at optimum settings there is no advantage in moving to an even higher octane fuel. the manufacturers recommendation is conservative so you may be able to carefully reduce the fuel octane. the penalty for getting it badly wrong and not realizing that you have could be expensive engine damage. 6.14 does low octane fuel increase engine wear not if you are meeting the octane requirement of the engine. if you are not meeting the octane requirement the engine will rapidly suffer major damage due to knock. you must not use fuels that produce sustained audible knock as engine damage will occur. if the octane is just sufficient the engine management system will move settings to a less optimal position and the only major penalty will be increased costs due to poor fuel economy. whenever possible engines should be operated at the optimum position for long-term reliability. engine wear is mainly related to design manufacturing maintenance and lubrication factors. once the octane and run-on requirements of the engine are satisfied increased octane will have no beneficial effect on the engine. run-on is the tendency of an engine to continue running after the ignition has been switched off and is discussed in more detail in section 8.2. the quality of gasoline and the additive package used would be more likely to affect the rate of engine wear rather than the octane rating. 6.16 what happens if i use the wrong octane fuel if you use a fuel with an octane rating below the requirement of the engine the management system may move the engine settings into an area of less efficient combustion resulting in reduced power and reduced fuel economy. you will be losing both money and drivability. if you use a fuel with an octane rating higher than what the engine can use you are just wasting money by paying for octane that you can not utilize. the additive packages are matched to the engines using the fuel for example intake valve deposit control additive concentrations may be increased in the premium octane grade. if your vehicle does not have a knock sensor then using a fuel with an octane rating significantly below the octane requirement of the engine means that the little men with hammers will gleefully pummel your engine to pieces. you should initially be guided by the vehicle manufacturers recommendations however you can experiment as the variations in vehicle tolerances can mean that octane number requirement for a given vehicle model can range over 6 octane numbers. caution should be used and remember to compensate if the conditions change such as carrying more people or driving in different ambient conditions. you can often reduce the octane of the fuel you use in winter because the temperature decrease and possible humidity changes may significantly reduce the octane requirement of the engine. use the octane that provides cost-effective drivability and performance using anything more is waste of money and anything less could result in an unscheduled expensive visit to your mechanic. http//www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part3/preamble.html -- steve williams bdk wrote bobcowan@access4less.nospam.net says... mwarren wrote 2001 1500 5.2l not mine but curious if youre burning premium fuel all the time anyway would it be beneficial to install a chip or other modification designed for premium fuel i dont know that much about perf chips but from my
From : bob
liberally apply jb weld to the bottom of the pump. press the plate to the jb weld. use the ties to secure the plate. ted...what are you on what in the heck are you talking about ok i know the name jb weld is like drawing nails across a blackboard with some people but heres my reasoning. reread the original post. heres the operative sentence last night i finally took a peek under the van and saw the bottom of the pump casing is bubbly with rust. i can actually watch droplets of power steering fluid form where the rust is the weakest. look at it. hes got a ps pump with a perforated resivor. that means for some time now his ps fluid has probably been contaminated with rust. he also dumped 3 bottles of stop leak into the ps fluid. so his rack right now is filled with ps fluid rust and stop leak crap. plus that hes got so much salt water coming up from below as to saturate the bottom of the vehicle to the point that its rotted out the bottom of the ps pump. can you imagine for a second what the bottom of the rest of the van looks like what the rack itself looks like to really do this job right would mean tearing out the pump and the rack and all hoses and just throwing everything in the trash and and replacing everything with new stuff. it is not in my opinion very smart to hook up a brand new ps pump to a rack thats full of crappy ps fluid that may or may not be contaminated with salt water almost certainly has a good load of rust in it plus 3 bottles of stop leak crap and pump all that crud into the new pump. far better to band-aid the existing pump for a few years and eventually its either going to finish rotting out completely or hes going to end up with an inner tie rod thats hashed and will need a new rack anyway then he can just replace everything then. if you see a flaw with this reasoning then please explain it. maybe im too pessimistic but i just cant believe with a ps pump that has the bottom rusted out of it that the inside of his rack is pristine. he can probably do a rube goldberg thing on the ps pump with jb weld in an hour without taking anything apart. that will nurse the pump along to allow him to wring the last few miles out of the rack itself then when the rack blows chunks he can do everything all at once. ted a little mickey mouse but it makes sense. the op was wondering about putting new hoses on it. certainly will save him some money sounds like the van is on the way out. roy .
From : bob
im anticipating my second service on my cummins. what can i expect to pay the deal for transmission fluid change front and rear diff etc. .
From : mike simmons
mwarren wrote 2001 1500 5.2l not mine but curious if youre burning premium fuel all the time anyway would it be beneficial to install a chip or other modification designed for premium fuel i dont know that much about perf chips but from my understanding they are designed to get the most out of premium fuel... but will it on an 01. any advice appreciated.. it seems that opinions on these things vary widely. matt why are you burning premium all the time now -- ..bob 1997 hd fxdwg - turbocharged! 2001 dodge dakota qc 5.9/4x4/3.92 1966 mustang coupe - daily driver 1965 ffr cobra - finally on the road! .
From : bdk
you seem to miss something here max. there was over a million barrels per day refining production shut down along the coast prior to the hurricane hitting. that is lost gas/diesel/jet/ production prior to the storm. didnt miss it at all and apparently neither did the market as the price on the trading day before landfall hit a high just over $70 and then dropped back just below $68 a barrel. if you read what i wrote youd see that i didnt miss that part since i used that pricing to rebut a comment exactly like yours. then the storm hits and does whatever damage to the facilities it does. if it were heavy damage it would take months to repair. if it were minor damage then they only have to do system checks and get rid of the gators and snakes and make it safe to operate again. this could be days of inspection testing and repair if you had full crews and extra contractors. true but days of inspection are better than months of no production. according to what i was hearing mid afternoon damage was minor. again i said that before. in the days of a regular plant shutdown/turnaround all this workforce worked there butts off and went home after their shift or to the motel. hello the homes are gone. there are no hotels. most of the infrastructure is gone. it is difficult to start a refinery with nobody to run it. lots of companies are helping the communities by bringing in basic needs. without that people wont be able to work. ok so the companies spend some of their profits and create the services needed to support employees. not a huge hardship given the size and resources of these companies. some of you out there think all you have to do is turn a key and a refinery starts. this aint your sweet dodge ram ctd. lol! depending on the particular unit it may take a week to 10 days to come up online and make on-test product. that is when no problems occur during startup. some facilities took most of a month after the last hurricane went through mississippi. great so its a month instead of six. again were talking about things i already noted. gasoline shortage you will get your gasoline after the refiners outbid someone else for the tanker load of gas. maybe you ought to feel good that you have a vehicle to put it in. thousands in the south no longer do. il repeat myself i do not believe based on almost all reports ive read and heard that there is any shortage of motor fuel in this country. and yes i feel good that i have a vehicle to put it in. take note because obviously you havent i have yet to complain about the cost of fuel. do i like it no. but at this point im doing ok with it and have no real hardship. perhaps you should take that into account next time you decide to lecture me with a guilt trip. -- max give a man a match and he is warm for a short while. light him on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life. snip you missed it the price did drop over $2 a barrel on that and despite the hurricane not suddenly disappearing. damage to major supply lines maybe but all the refinery spokespeople are claiming minor damage. -- max you seem to miss something here max. there was over a million barrels per day refining production shut down along the coast prior to the hurricane hitting. that is lost gas/diesel/jet/ production prior to the storm. then the storm hits and does whatever damage to the facilities it does. if it were heavy damage it would take months to repair. if it were minor damage then they only have to do system checks and get rid of the gators and snakes and make it safe to operate again. this could be days of inspection testing and repair if you had full crews and extra contractors. in the days of a regular plant shutdown/turnaround all this workforce worked there butts off and went home after their shift or to the motel. hello the homes are gone. there are no hotels. most of the infrastructure is gone. it is difficult to start a refinery with nobody to run it. lots of companies are helping the communities by bringing in basic needs. without that people wont be able to work. some of you out there think all you have to do is turn a key and a refinery starts. this aint your sweet dodge ram ctd. lol! depending on the particular unit it may take a week to 10 days to come up online and make on-test product. that is when no problems occur during startup. some facilities took most of a month after the last hurricane went through mississippi. gasoline shortage you will get your gasoline after the refiners outbid someone else for the tanker load of gas. maybe you ought to feel good that you have a vehicle to put it in. thousands in the south no longer do. -- fmb only one b in fmb cindy slither home .