American Workers Will Live Like Peasants Again US Auto makers may become extinct, caused by Unions

From : tbone

Q: budd cochran wrote im sorry i must have missed the signs that saidclosed discussion not an open forum roy is the moderator around roy. no budd you missed the part that said go argue with somebody else but you really didnt miss it did ya you responded to my response to miles. i merely responded to your response to my post. im sorry that you find it upsetting that i choose not to argue with you. no i saw it read it and understood it to indicate you consider yourself to be superior to me and/or you think you can restrict whom i reply to or comments i can make. the last time i checked this was still an open unmoderated forum . . .wait i think you told a few people that when they slammed you for your rude commetaries. hmm that makes it good old pkb doesnt it if it had been merely a comment to prevent an argument you could have been far more polite. upset whining nope just giving my viewpoint on the situation...oh thats what you consider to be upset and whining. imho it is you that whines everytime someone says anything against your unholy master the union. go ahead and worship your god the union if you wish roy. gee thanks budd i guess if they continue to screw whineing babies like you they cant be all bad. maybe ill join another. and when will you decide to turn all your liberties over to others roy why not just move to a socialist country and get it over with. why do you support organizations that restrict the freedom to work in a chosen profession because one does not want to abide by union rules or pay out monies to that organization its called a closed shop roy and its often kept me from having better jobs as i would be turned down for jobs i was the best candidate for because i would not join the union. oh wait others dont matter just your wallet right so your union masters are part of why im in the current financial condition im in because i applied for a job with the nickle plate line years ago and that was why i was turned down. i dont wont and i can say what ever i want as long as i dont violate my isps regulations. by all means. actually your posts of late are following your usual pattern and that is disappointing but it is what it is. tough roy. killfile me if it bothers you so much. i wont miss your whinings in support of your wallet or your insulting remarks about my current state of health. my postings do not violate those regulations. no they are the same tiresome budd gets insulted and pissed off claims he has been attcked throws the religon card blames all his problems on somebody or something then goes into a snit and stops posting for a bit. roy i was talking about unions not religion in case your early-onset senility made you forget. nor did i say i was insulted by a union or that one violated my beliefs. some time back i said a corrupt union screwed 1500 members over on two occasions including myself. i also stated my beliefs that unions are dinosaurs and no longer needed because they are usually more corrupt than anything. does everyone have to follow your lead about unions cant a naysayer post an opposing opinion btw did you ever consider that my decisions to stop posting for periods of time are for my benefit not yours i dont enjoy religious arguments not continuous insults like some folks do so i take a vacation from it. i didnt know i needed your permission. a few years back when i was offline for a rather long period several friends were concerned about my health so i now give notice of these vacations out of coinsideration for ther friendship. is that a bad thing to do i just dont want to be part of it. fine. i didnt twist your arm to force you to reply did i you chose to reply so the fault is yours. are we done now. thats up to you. we were once friends we got in a row i apologized but you dont seem to have forgiven or forgotten. i am the person i am. i try to be friends with everyone try to help where i can and i dont ask anyone to change to suit me nor will i change to suit anyone. i ask only for the same respect anyone else would seek to be accepted for who i am. i am opinionated and i am stubborn but you already knew that and have known it for years. i am in bad health and its getting worse so it or the medications may affect what i say or do thats a part of getting older. i try to proof read all my posts for that reason but i am human. and if you cant handle that then killfile me. your recent comments on my health and source of income were extremely insulting and proved only how important your own wallet is to you. but if i have more to say about unions i will say it. if you choose to reply then dont blame me. -- budd cochran american workers will live like peasants again because of union busting by their own government. sad but true. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out fo

Replies:

From : tbone

tbone wrote american workers will live like peasants again because of union busting by their own government. sad but true. for you its better that a union busts a company and they pack up and move elsewhere. good plan. 99% of the time it is not the union that busts up a company it is almost always either poor planning by the highly paid management or a change in the times. of course it appears that the management responsible for the planning or predicting these changing times never seem to want to take the life influencing pay cuts that they try to impose on the workers. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

theguy wrote really fwiw the world can only live well when there is balance. as far as unions they give balance to workers rights. they can in some situations. in others unions have gotten way to big and powerfull and destroyed otherwise good companies. oh yea it was always the unions never greedy corporate execs that made bad decisions. they have hurt industries by subsidizing union contractors such that they can bid below cost to shove out anyone else. i dont even think that is legal but since you seem to think that it happens sp often lets see some examples and dont give me your typical do the research crap. you made the claim now lets see some examples. funny how you dont seem to complain when big companies like wallmart and m$ sell below cost or give things away for the very same purpose. thats just plain wrong and is not benificial to society as a whole. but it happens on both sides. how come you never seem to see that -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

on sun 12 feb 2006 111141 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote tbone wrote american workers will live like peasants again because of union busting by their own government. sad but true. for you its better that a union busts a company and they pack up and move elsewhere. good plan. really fwiw the world can only live well when there is balance. as far as unions they give balance to workers rights. as far as management they give balance to workers wants. they really are a ying and yang to one another. neither proves too successful when the other is too strong. unions are not dinosaurs. they are not gone. they are just being squeezed by a global economic trend. they will adjust. unions will rise in other nations in other countries..........as management gets too strong and forgets the relationship that it must maintain with the people that do the labor. well said -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

tbone wrote 99% of the time it is not the union that busts up a company it is almost always either poor planning by the highly paid management or a change in the times. if thats the case then you have nothing to whine about when those companies move overseas. just changing times. trouble is the union doesnt seem to flex per those changing times...which does lead to companies being forced to move. like i said before miles i dont see the management in many of these companies willing to make life changing cuts in their salaries and benefits to keep these companies in the usa. sorry miles many of these companies just use the workers wanting to make a wage they can actually live on as an excuse to leave without the bad rep. much easier to pass the blame or use the term global market. many of these companies have left the us on claimed losses while they were still highly profitable. they based their losses on expected growth that they didnt achieve iow fuzzy math and most people fall for this bs. even if the unions gave in to all these claims these companies would leave anyway because there is no way for the american worker to take enough cuts to compete with the pay in the 2nd and 3rd world economies or for this country to back off on the costly ecological restrictions that many of theses countries simply ignore. if they are going to go anyway let them go now and hopefully the american people will put a stop to it and buy no products from these companies and be willing to perhaps pay a little more for products made in the usa but it will take a while since most americans need that 100000 mph kick in the balls to wake up and do the right thing sometimes. perhaps when enough jobs are lost we will wake up but sometimes i wonder..... -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : theguy

on sun 12 feb 2006 111141 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote tbone wrote american workers will live like peasants again because of union busting by their own government. sad but true. for you its better that a union busts a company and they pack up and move elsewhere. good plan. really fwiw the world can only live well when there is balance. as far as unions they give balance to workers rights. as far as management they give balance to workers wants. they really are a ying and yang to one another. neither proves too successful when the other is too strong. unions are not dinosaurs. they are not gone. they are just being squeezed by a global economic trend. they will adjust. unions will rise in other nations in other countries..........as management gets too strong and forgets the relationship that it must maintain with the people that do the labor. .

From : theguy

on thu 16 feb 2006 171949 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on thu 16 feb 2006 051846 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 141304 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 175825 gmt tbone tbonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote really miles i thought that the purpose of a corporation was to provide a service or product and make money doing it but your description shows clearly where your head is. come on miles get your head out. making money is why corporations exist. that is the reason. it is not a bad reason. making money is why unions exist to a large degree too. we are a capitalist society and that is not a bad thing. money is not a dirty word. we are getting hung up on issues that are not really the issue. rotflmbo!!!! you dare try to tell me how i should be and you dont even know who youre correcting in this post from t-bone. read again i was adding to what tbone said but then what does it matter. you read what you want to anyway. you would not have even noticed or commented on this exept i commented on what you said in another post so now you are going to try to find any little thing that you can to try to show your superiority which is a real paradox for you. you are the main example of someone here that has no interest in listening budd. you dont listen to a thing anyone says you just keep throwing out shit until someone hurts your feelings then you throw relidion and illness into it trying to get them to stop. aha!!!! hey roy heres one of those clowns that took my report on my health and corrupted it. now am i lying i never said you were lying. i said that i didnt remember reading it. i think and i may be wrong but tg just mentioned the pattern that i wrote about earlier. im sure he will clarify. roy i dont give a fig if he does. dont worry then i wont. i just cant find the motiviation today to go over that again. roy really did say it better than i could a few days back anyhow. whatever. roys one of those that has been decieved by the corruption of my report on my health. oh my gosh. poor roy. budd i am sure you think im picking on you. never my intention and even though i didnt say it real nicely what i said was for your benefit. then take this for what its worth i dont need your advice or guidance on my health issues. i have a fully trained medical staff for that. dont take a report of my conditions made in public to numerous concerned friends to be a whiney complaint its not. ok thats fair. ill let you make an ass out yourself. i said it in the hopes that you would stop and listen and realize that you have been acting real strange lately and that in your own interest you should relax and take a deep breath. i am being myself. i have aged since i first joined this group and that changes ones outlook and personality live with it or killfile me. the clientele of the group has changed as well with an increase in less sociable personalities since 1996 therefore i react differently. killfile me or accept it. budd i dont killfile anyone. but i still dont have to accept it. i thinkill just make fun of you instead vbg it doesnt become you. nor does acting like my maiden aunt become you mother hen. if i want your advice ill give it to you. i think you mean if you want my advice youll ask for it........and again that is perfectly fair. i have no problem with that at all. now you dont have to listen to me........i accept your right to act however you would like im just saying you are acting like a putz and you may want to think about that. if you are ok with that then so be it. how many times do i have to tell you that i will be whom i am if you dont like it kill file me. its what i have said since my first day in this group. already addressed. one thing that does bug me is that youve claimed to have been in the group for a long time and you changed to your present screen name a few years back. you have refused to inform me as to who you were even with an available email address which if you had used it i would have honored a request to keep your i.d. secret. i dont remember that...........not saying it didnthappen but i sure dont remember it. i have no idea why you would want my email address and for that matter if you had or have asked for it you are right i would not have given it to you. you really got me here budd why the fuck would you think i would give you my email address now you expect me to treat you like you are a concerned friend and just accept your kind advice. it aint gonna happen if i dont know who you are. now you know the main reason i dont listen to your advice about my persoanlity changes. again that is perfectly fair and well within your rights. if you are someone thats been around a while then youve seen the chan

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

i think i just figured it out miles. . . . on star trek a science fiction fantasy program no one works to make a profit / income they work because they want to. all your sustenance lodging and clothing comes from somewhere probably a governmental agency and cost nothing or from a replicator provided by the afore mentioned entity. and tom thinks thats the way it should be . . . . . -- budd cochran tbone wrote like i said before miles i dont see the management in many of these companies willing to make life changing cuts in their salaries and benefits to keep these companies in the usa. why is it always the corporations fault it works both ways. what you seem to forget is the main purpose a company is in business for. you seem to go the social extremes and wish that companies were all just non-profit social welfare providers. fact is a corporation is started to make money. if a union gets to powerfull and makes it difficult to compete in a global market then they move elsewhere. you can cry all you want whine about how bad they are but tough...theyre gone and what are you doing about it other than whine what are you willing to do to keep the companies here *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : theguy

on tue 14 feb 2006 193929 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote i think i just figured it out miles. . . . on star trek a science fiction fantasy program no one works to make a profit / income they work because they want to. all your sustenance lodging and clothing comes from somewhere probably a governmental agency and cost nothing or from a replicator provided by the afore mentioned entity. and tom thinks thats the way it should be . . . . . thats a pretty insane thing to say. ridicule doesnt fit yoou well you use stupid analogies. you also dont do miles any justice. he at least is trying to argue based on his beliefs. i dont agreee with miles but i repect the guy. after all we are all just products of our experienes and it sounds like a couple of his family businesses had financial trouble that the unions somehow made worse. you on the other hand as i recall are just pissed off because some workers got screwed and the union didnt help them. at least that is what i remember you saying a while back. oh yeah that and that unions are dinosaurs. im still trying to figure that one out. .

From : theguy

on tue 14 feb 2006 214407 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote theguy wrote i dont agreee with miles but i repect the guy. after all we are all just products of our experienes and it sounds like a couple of his family businesses had financial trouble that the unions somehow made worse. i have worked from both sides and therefore see both sides of the fence. most have not done so. when it is your own time and life invested into a company of your own then and only then can you understand the other side. otherwise workers think everyone in the corporate world above them is arrogant and greedy and dont deserve what they have. i know better than that. didnt have financial problems. the unions certainly did try to run us out using strong arm tactics but they failed. the little guy won and the non-union employess benifited from fighting back against the unions. im glad you prevailed. my point was that we are all a product of our experiences. yours have shaped your opinions as have mine. i too have been on both sides of the fence and my experiences have been very different from yours. i also think the melodrama of saying that workers think that everyone in the corporate world above them is arrogant and greedy........... is a huge overstatement. just the opposite is true and i think that you know that. most people understand and appreciate that there is a corporate world to provide them with jobs. there are some that are dicks but they are not the rule. however those workers have their own time and life invested into a company and want to protet their interests too. just the same as you. they could read what you just wrote and say that everyone in corporate america thinks that everyone in the labor world is arrogant and greedy and should just be happy to have a job. you need to be careful playing those types of cards miles because the other side has the same arguments. it really is simply just the two parts each worrying about their own needs each believing that the other can not be trusted with themon thier own. so they get together and form agreements contracts that try to reach a point where both sides needs are pretected. certainly corporations businesses and governments need to have management rights. no question. but this country was founded on a doctrine of protecting the little guy the individual as much as possible and in the working world workers certainly have a right to have some control over working conditions. that is simply the american way. without unions we would not be the country that we are and we would not enjoy the status that makes america america. as i have said before sometimes unions go too far and that is wrong. but sometimes management goes too far and that too is bad. .

From : roy

theguy wrote really fwiw the world can only live well when there is balance. as far as unions they give balance to workers rights. they can in some situations. in others unions have gotten way to big and powerfull and destroyed otherwise good companies. they have hurt industries by subsidizing union contractors such that they can bid below cost to shove out anyone else. thats just plain wrong and is not benificial to society as a whole. miles id expect you to look at both sides of a issue. please read up on the demise of eastern airlines with a open mind. ill see if i can find a link tonight. roy roy .

From : roy

theguy wrote really fwiw the world can only live well when there is balance. as far as unions they give balance to workers rights. they can in some situations. in others unions have gotten way to big and powerfull and destroyed otherwise good companies. they have hurt industries by subsidizing union contractors such that they can bid below cost to shove out anyone else. thats just plain wrong and is not benificial to society as a whole. miles id expect you to look at both sides of a issue. please read up on the demise of eastern airlines with a open mind. ill see if i can find a link tonight. there is a ton of stuff miles also on frank lorenzo easterns owner either yahoo or google. just trying to point out that horrible stuff happens on both side of the street. roy roy roy .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

on tue 14 feb 2006 193929 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote i think i just figured it out miles. . . . on star trek a science fiction fantasy program no one works to make a profit / income they work because they want to. all your sustenance lodging and clothing comes from somewhere probably a governmental agency and cost nothing or from a replicator provided by the afore mentioned entity. and tom thinks thats the way it should be . . . . . thats a pretty insane thing to say. ridicule doesnt fit yoou well you use stupid analogies. no it fits t-bones attitudes that the developers / managers of business should not be rewarded according to their efforts. you also dont do miles any justice. he at least is trying to argue based on his beliefs. actually i respect miles highly but appears from your reply you dont want to see that and admit it. i dont agreee with miles but i repect the guy. after all we are all just products of our experienes and it sounds like a couple of his family businesses had financial trouble that the unions somehow made worse. probably so. many unions have no more mission than to take over the management of a mid-sized business so they can control operations and they do it under the guise of supporting employee needs. you on the other hand as i recall are just pissed off because some workers got screwed and the union didnt help them. at least that is what i remember you saying a while back. oh yeah that and that unions are dinosaurs. im still trying to figure that one out. ya know ill just bet youve never faced an eviction that would toss you and your family into the street because your union failed to provide strike pay or had to beg family members for money to feed your children because welfare didnt in that time / place consider being on strike as reason for food stamps. or watched a union called strike no rank and file vote taken force an entire town of 45000 into an economic depression. pissed off no its just that these stupid rants about the virtues of unions are outweighed by the fact that they have outlived their usefulness that they need to be fossilized in the museums with the dinosaur bones since modern laws enforce better employee treatment and wages. but lets not forget the role played by money / dues / benefit grubbing unions in the 10x average inflation of consumer prices since the mid 60s. there that should clear up your confusion. if not . . . . then you just might be a deceived union member. -- budd cochran romans 323 romans 623 john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

on fri 17 feb 2006 073105 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on thu 16 feb 2006 171949 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on thu 16 feb 2006 051846 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 141304 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 175825 gmt tbone tbonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote

From : roy

on thu 16 feb 2006 051846 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 141304 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 175825 gmt tbone tbonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote really miles i thought that the purpose of a corporation was to provide a service or product and make money doing it but your description shows clearly where your head is. come on miles get your head out. making money is why corporations exist. that is the reason. it is not a bad reason. making money is why unions exist to a large degree too. we are a capitalist society and that is not a bad thing. money is not a dirty word. we are getting hung up on issues that are not really the issue. rotflmbo!!!! you dare try to tell me how i should be and you dont even know who youre correcting in this post from t-bone. read again i was adding to what tbone said but then what does it matter. you read what you want to anyway. you would not have even noticed or commented on this exept i commented on what you said in another post so now you are going to try to find any little thing that you can to try to show your superiority which is a real paradox for you. you are the main example of someone here that has no interest in listening budd. you dont listen to a thing anyone says you just keep throwing out shit until someone hurts your feelings then you throw relidion and illness into it trying to get them to stop. aha!!!! hey roy heres one of those clowns that took my report on my health and corrupted it. now am i lying i never said you were lying. i said that i didnt remember reading it. i think and i may be wrong but tg just mentioned the pattern that i wrote about earlier. im sure he will clarify. roy i dont give a fig if he does. dont worry then i wont. i just cant find the motiviation today to go over that again. roy really did say it better than i could a few days back anyhow. whatever. roys one of those that has been decieved by the corruption of my report on my health. no thats untrue. i said i was tired of hearing about it and further youre useing it as a excuse for what you post. if it was corrupted it was by you. roy .

From : tbone

on tue 14 feb 2006 193929 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote i think i just figured it out miles. . . . on star trek a science fiction fantasy program no one works to make a profit / income they work because they want to. all your sustenance lodging and clothing comes from somewhere probably a governmental agency and cost nothing or from a replicator provided by the afore mentioned entity. and tom thinks thats the way it should be . . . . . thats a pretty insane thing to say. ridicule doesnt fit yoou well you use stupid analogies. no it fits t-bones attitudes that the developers / managers of business should not be rewarded according to their efforts. more complete horseshit from you. i have no problem for people being rewarded for their efforts but thre is a point where it goes beyond a reward and into pure greed. i also have a problem when these people screw up and dont take the blame for it and expect others to take the loss for it. rotflmbo!!!!!!!! you think every ceo is like enrons ceo bhwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!!!!! no enrons ceo was a thief and although close is not the same thing as being outright greedy or pushing the cost of legal bad decisions onto the workers. guess what tom greed can be illegal its the basic emotion behind most crimes of theft. sorry budd but the emotion behind a crime is not a crime itself. if the emotions were a crime you would have been convicted of my murder many times by now bfg probably so. many unions have no more mission than to take over the management of a mid-sized business so they can control operations and they do it under the guise of supporting employee needs. lol another claim that you have no possible way of backing up. gee look at what the guy that turns down an offer to back up a claim says about another persons opinion. there is no need and max with all his talk hasnt either. he doesnt need the assistance and it remains his decison. i never said that he did but he has yet to post anything either and for him it appears to be much easier. you claimed the lack of binary posting capacity so i offered to help and you turned it down. and i appreciate the offer but there would be no point in doing it. max has never been man enough to admit any type of error especially to me so what would be the point. at best he would claim that his different year manual didnt cover what i said and then come up with excuses not to back it up. i have been down this road with him before and know better than to do it again. that tells me that you either do not care about your credibility or consider yourself to be superior to everyone else. well budd the reality of the situation is that max is your friend so you will assume him to be the correct one regardless of the facts. reality check tom opinions do not have to be backed up with proof. i dont see where you claimed this to be your opinion. it was a general statement that you now admittedly cannot back up. im sorry i didnt know i had to write opinion being stated on any posts containing an opinion. does that apply to you as well if not then it doesnt apply to me either. many in here including myself use imho or imo to declare an opinion. i dont use it that much because many in here dont give a damn about my opinion so i tend to keep my opinions out of my posts but when i do have on and that is all that it is i do use it so i guess that it does apply to you as well. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : theguy

on wed 15 feb 2006 051925 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on tue 14 feb 2006 193929 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote i think i just figured it out miles. . . . on star trek a science fiction fantasy program no one works to make a profit / income they work because they want to. all your sustenance lodging and clothing comes from somewhere probably a governmental agency and cost nothing or from a replicator provided by the afore mentioned entity. and tom thinks thats the way it should be . . . . . thats a pretty insane thing to say. ridicule doesnt fit yoou well you use stupid analogies. no it fits t-bones attitudes that the developers / managers of business should not be rewarded according to their efforts. you also dont do miles any justice. he at least is trying to argue based on his beliefs. actually i respect miles highly but appears from your reply you dont want to see that and admit it. i dont agreee with miles but i repect the guy. after all we are all just products of our experienes and it sounds like a couple of his family businesses had financial trouble that the unions somehow made worse. probably so. many unions have no more mission than to take over the management of a mid-sized business so they can control operations and they do it under the guise of supporting employee needs. you on the other hand as i recall are just pissed off because some workers got screwed and the union didnt help them. at least that is what i remember you saying a while back. oh yeah that and that unions are dinosaurs. im still trying to figure that one out. ya know ill just bet youve never faced an eviction that would toss you and your family into the street because your union failed to provide strike pay or had to beg family members for money to feed your children because welfare didnt in that time / place consider being on strike as reason for food stamps. or watched a union called strike no rank and file vote taken force an entire town of 45000 into an economic depression. pissed off no its just that these stupid rants about the virtues of unions are outweighed by the fact that they have outlived their usefulness that they need to be fossilized in the museums with the dinosaur bones since modern laws enforce better employee treatment and wages. but lets not forget the role played by money / dues / benefit grubbing unions in the 10x average inflation of consumer prices since the mid 60s. there that should clear up your confusion. if not . . . . then you just might be a deceived union member. or you might be ignorant. your all or nothing sensationalism in your post pretty much points to the latter. you really need too get a grip budd. slow down relax and look at things with some perspective. nothng is black and white it is all shades of grey. you really sound like some guy sitting in a bar with a beer in his handwearing a windbreaker with the name of the bar on the back of it yelling and ranting with no one listening. .

From : tbone

tbone wrote they can in some situations. oh yea it was always the unions never greedy corporate execs that made bad decisions. too funny tbone!! i say they can in some situations and you retort by saying always the unions. when is it ever the greedy unions huh oh ya you said 1% of the time. lol sure. really name one. all i hear from you is the big bad unions never that managemnet dropped the ball. they have hurt industries by subsidizing union contractors such that they can bid below cost to shove out anyone else. i dont even think that is legal but since you seem to think that it happens sp often it is legal tbone. unions write checks to member corporations so they can outbid the non-union contractors. its very legal and its happened to my families own businesses. backfired though. the union couldnt keep writing checks forever in order to win all jobs. your love affair with unions is a direct result of you having zero experience or knowledge from a corporate perspective of the damage unions do. either you have the biggest family in the world or you are full of shit. every time i ask you to back something up you come up with this family crap yet never actually give a name. what is the name of the business and what union attacked them. since this should all be public record im not asking for anything private. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : theguy

on wed 15 feb 2006 055935 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote theguy wrote i also think the melodrama of saying that workers think that everyone in the corporate world above them is arrogant and greedy........... is a huge overstatement. just the opposite is true and i think that you know that. no i dont know that. i know too many people with tbones attitude towards corporations. however those workers have their own time and life invested into a company and want to protet their interests too. just the same as you. not the same at all. not even close. people who own their own business have far more at risk. and that is where you are blind and why you will always fight with the unions. people who have bet there lives on the company their future their kids education their retirement etc. have just as much as you to lose. it may be on a different level but it is ertainly no less important and if you cant understand that then you will be a bad capitalist until you do. you are putting your needs above their your interests in front of theirs. they see that they will never respect or deal with you without knowing in the back of thier minds that you devalue them. people dont deal well with that at any level in any situation. you gotta try at least to understand it. look at life through their shoes for one. theyve invested their life savings into the company and will use everything they have to keep it afloat in bad times. if the company folds they often fold with it. workers are just out of a job. owners are out far more. to say its all just the same is just wrong! it really is simply just the two parts each worrying about their own needs each believing that the other can not be trusted with themon thier own. that is true. i just hear from too many workers who have no comprehension of what its like to be on the other side. so they get together and form agreements contracts that try to reach a point where both sides needs are pretected. thats great but in reality each tries to do whatever it takes to muscle the other their way. they do what they need to find the leverage to do so. its not one big happy family quite often. without unions we would not be the country that we are and we would not enjoy the status that makes america america. unions are needed only in a few select markets where balance is skewed. in the vast majority of sectors normal market principals prevail providing a natural balance. if i want to keep a skilled worker then i have to pay them or theyll vote with their feet. companies compete for skilled workers. only in a few areas is this balance not present and thus unions needed. .

From : tbone

tbone wrote like i said before miles i dont see the management in many of these companies willing to make life changing cuts in their salaries and benefits to keep these companies in the usa. why is it always the corporations fault where did i say it always was in all cases where the fault is poor planning it is. the workers do not run the company or make the big decisions now do they that is the job of the highly paid execs and for that matter the reason that they are so highly paid. the problem is that when the company runs into trouble due to poor planning they seldom take any responsibility for it. much easier to pass the buck on such made up terms as the global economy. it works both ways. while true each case depends on the situation. what you seem to forget is the main purpose a company is in business for. you seem to go the social extremes and wish that companies were all just non-profit social welfare providers. lol i do no such thing. i have no problem with workers making concessions as long as the people responsible make the same ones or perhaps a little more if they are the ones to blame. fact is a corporation is started to make money. really miles i thought that the purpose of a corporation was to provide a service or product and make money doing it but your description shows clearly where your head is. if a union gets to powerfull and makes it difficult to compete in a global market then they move elsewhere. you can cry all you want whine about how bad they are but tough...theyre gone and what are you doing about it other than whine what are you willing to do to keep the companies here not a damn thing if i cant make a living wage working there what would be the point the point that you and those like you fail to see is that if the businesses lay off everyone that may buy your product or service who is going to be left to buy it just a quick look at the trade deficit shows the writing on the wall. the people in these other countries cannot afford to buy the products now produced in those countries they are still bought here. when the pay level of most americans falls far enough we wont be able to afford them either and then what are these greedy execs going to do the answer is nothing because they already have more than enough money and really dont give a fuck. that seems to be the new thing with american businessmen squeeze the sponge for all it is worth and cast it aside. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : Annonymous

25 years ago i was one of the line electricians in a uaw shop in east moline illinois john deere harvestor works. it was commonplace for a worker to deliberately break a mig trigger or cause a jam on the overhead power & free conveyor or break the pendant on an overhead hoist in order to get down time. wed replace 810 mig triggers a week and the millrights would get calls to un-jam the p&f system at least once a shift. i cant begin to tell you the number of hoist pendants i repaired in a weeks time. a mig trigger would take 15 mins to fix and a p&f jam would easily get these bozos 2030 mins of stand-around with your thumb up your ass time. other assembly stations in the plant had their own methods to steal time. happened everywhere from the laser shear to the horizontal milling machines and broaches all the way out back to final assembly. if you were a good worker the shop steward would have a word with you and hint that maybe you ought to slow down. then if you didnt slow down your car would end up with the tires slashed or youd open your locker before the start of your shift and find your work boots full of leader-pin oil. it was a general conspiracy by the union rank & file to screw-over the company. similar crap occurs in every uaw shop ive ever been in or heard of. so to the union worker i say dont ever complain about what a union-mad

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

be just like them or at least be the way they think i should be i dont kill file anyone budd. try it you might like it. i read pretty much everything from everyone. everyone has a good point from time to time. ri-i-i-i-ight . . . . -- budd cochran romans 323 romans 623 john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : theguy

on wed 15 feb 2006 125513 -0500 roy roy@home.net wrote theguy wrote really fwiw the world can only live well when there is balance. as far as unions they give balance to workers rights. they can in some situations. in others unions have gotten way to big and powerfull and destroyed otherwise good companies. they have hurt industries by subsidizing union contractors such that they can bid below cost to shove out anyone else. thats just plain wrong and is not benificial to society as a whole. miles id expect you to look at both sides of a issue. please read up on the demise of eastern airlines with a open mind. ill see if i can find a link tonight. there is a ton of stuff miles also on frank lorenzo easterns owner either yahoo or google. just trying to point out that horrible stuff happens on both side of the street. roy i second what roy said. but keep in mind that it isnt just the headlines where this is an important issue. in my opinion it is behind the headlines where this union/management issue takes on its most important facet. it is in the lives of individual people that i am the most concerned about. as i get older i have spent some time thinking about values and what i would like to be remembered for. about what is really important in life. while making money and having toys is important and i like money and toys it isnt the most important thing and it isnt what i want to be remembered for. fairness with my relationships toward people is much more important. how we interact in the business world with people and how we treat them is really bigger than anything else. that is a legacy that you will leave and the real struggle in america is on the individual level. i believe in capitalism and wish you well in all your pursuits but all things come into conflict and only when you know your priorities can you act in concert with them. when the right to make big sums of money comes at the expense of the workers rights to have a secure and fair work place the latter wins in my book. look i have been on both sides of the fence. management rights at this point in time are at a high in the post war economy. i see it every day. there are alot of managers in the private and public sector that see employees only as a means to an end their end. without unions there is very little job or discipline protection. period. the law does not currently support the worker. now the worker can just turn the other cheek and take it or they can do something to even the playing field. the unions are that avenue. yes the unions go too far sometimes but so does management. the point that you just can not grasp is that you and the workers have to have a relationship for your business to work. if the workers chose to do that through a union that it their right. pure and simple. in that case if you want to have a good business that is ethical fair to workers and successful in business you have to have a relationship with the union. period. you have to try to understand what the union represents and why it is of importance. that means that you have to do two action things you have to listen and you have to try to empathize. i mean listen as in listening to the message not just listening as you do here so you can build an argument against what is said but actually listen. empathy is that second part. this thread just kills me. you want to rail about unions because of thier exccesses but that is stupid. it just opens you up to the same philosophy. we can rail probably to greater degree about mgt excesses. you trivialize what the unions represents. as long as you do that you will never ever really be able to dig beyond the headlines and get to some creative solutions. roy roy .

From : theguy

on wed 15 feb 2006 175825 gmt tbone tbonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote tbone wrote like i said before miles i dont see the management in many of these companies willing to make life changing cuts in their salaries and benefits to keep these companies in the usa. why is it always the corporations fault where did i say it always was in all cases where the fault is poor planning it is. the workers do not run the company or make the big decisions now do they that is the job of the highly paid execs and for that matter the reason that they are so highly paid. the problem is that when the company runs into trouble due to poor planning they seldom take any responsibility for it. much easier to pass the buck on such made up terms as the global economy. it works both ways. while true each case depends on the situation. what you seem to forget is the main purpose a company is in business for. you seem to go the social extremes and wish that companies were all just non-profit social welfare providers. lol i do no such thing. i have no problem with workers making concessions as long as the people responsible make the same ones or perhaps a little more if they are the ones to blame. fact is a corporation is started to make money. really miles i thought that the purpose of a corporation was to provide a service or product and make money doing it but your description shows clearly where your head is. come on miles get your head out. making money is why corporations exist. that is the reason. it is not a bad reason. making money is why unions exist to a large degree too. we are a capitalist society and that is not a bad thing. money is not a dirty word. we are getting hung up on issues that are not really the issue. if a union gets to powerfull and makes it difficult to compete in a global market then they move elsewhere. you can cry all you want whine about how bad they are but tough...theyre gone and what are you doing about it other than whine what are you willing to do to keep the companies here not a damn thing if i cant make a living wage working there what would be the point the point that you and those like you fail to see is that if the businesses lay off everyone that may buy your product or service who is going to be left to buy it just a quick look at the trade deficit shows the writing on the wall. the people in these other countries cannot afford to buy the products now produced in those countries they are still bought here. when the pay level of most americans falls far enough we wont be able to afford them either and then what are these greedy execs going to do the answer is nothing because they already have more than enough money and really dont give a fuck. that seems to be the new thing with american businessmen squeeze the sponge for all it is worth and cast it aside. .

From : roy

on wed 15 feb 2006 125513 -0500 roy roy@home.net wrote theguy wrote really fwiw the world can only live well when there is balance. as far as unions they give balance to workers rights. they can in some situations. in others unions have gotten way to big and powerfull and destroyed otherwise good companies. they have hurt industries by subsidizing union contractors such that they can bid below cost to shove out anyone else. thats just plain wrong and is not benificial to society as a whole. miles id expect you to look at both sides of a issue. please read up on the demise of eastern airlines with a open mind. ill see if i can find a link tonight. there is a ton of stuff miles also on frank lorenzo easterns owner either yahoo or google. just trying to point out that horrible stuff happens on both side of the street. roy i second what roy said. but keep in mind that it isnt just the headlines where this is an important issue. in my opinion it is behind the headlines where this union/management issue takes on its most important facet. it is in the lives of individual people that i am the most concerned about. as i get older i have spent some time thinking about values and what i would like to be remembered for. about what is really important in life. while making money and having toys is important and i like money and toys it isnt the most important thing and it isnt what i want to be remembered for. fairness with my relationships toward people is much more important. how we interact in the business world with people and how we treat them is really bigger than anything else. that is a legacy that you will leave and the real struggle in america is on the individual level. i believe in capitalism and wish you well in all your pursuits but all things come into conflict and only when you know your priorities can you act in concert with them. when the right to make big sums of money comes at the expense of the workers rights to have a secure and fair work place the latter wins in my book. look i have been on both sides of the fence. management rights at this point in time are at a high in the post war economy. i see it every day. there are alot of managers in the private and public sector that see employees only as a means to an end their end. without unions there is very little job or discipline protection. period. the law does not currently support the worker. now the worker can just turn the other cheek and take it or they can do something to even the playing field. the unions are that avenue. yes the unions go too far sometimes but so does management. the point that you just can not grasp is that you and the workers have to have a relationship for your business to work. if the workers chose to do that through a union that it their right. pure and simple. in that case if you want to have a good business that is ethical fair to workers and successful in business you have to have a relationship with the union. period. you have to try to understand what the union represents and why it is of importance. that means that you have to do two action things you have to listen and you have to try to empathize. i mean listen as in listening to the message not just listening as you do here so you can build an argument against what is said but actually listen. empathy is that second part. this thread just kills me. you want to rail about unions because of thier exccesses but that is stupid. it just opens you up to the same philosophy. we can rail probably to greater degree about mgt excesses. you trivialize what the unions represents. as long as you do that you will never ever really be able to dig beyond the headlines and get to some creative solutions. lets face it there have been some unions or locals that have been horrible. what i dont understand is why the members have not voted them off the property or de certified them. i also think in the past 30 years the unions that did run amok have been curtailed quite a bit. roy roy roy .

From : theguy

on wed 15 feb 2006 132911 -0500 roy roy@home.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 125513 -0500 roy roy@home.net wrote theguy wrote really fwiw the world can only live well when there is balance. as far as unions they give balance to workers rights. they can in some situations. in others unions have gotten way to big and powerfull and destroyed otherwise good companies. they have hurt industries by subsidizing union contractors such that they can bid below cost to shove out anyone else. thats just plain wrong and is not benificial to society as a whole. miles id expect you to look at both sides of a issue. please read up on the demise of eastern airlines with a open mind. ill see if i can find a link tonight. there is a ton of stuff miles also on frank lorenzo easterns owner either yahoo or google. just trying to point out that horrible stuff happens on both side of the street. roy i second what roy said. but keep in mind that it isnt just the headlines where this is an important issue. in my opinion it is behind the headlines where this union/management issue takes on its most important facet. it is in the lives of individual people that i am the most concerned about. as i get older i have spent some time thinking about values and what i would like to be remembered for. about what is really important in life. while making money and having toys is important and i like money and toys it isnt the most important thing and it isnt what i want to be remembered for. fairness with my relationships toward people is much more important. how we interact in the business world with people and how we treat them is really bigger than anything else. that is a legacy that you will leave and the real struggle in america is on the individual level. i believe in capitalism and wish you well in all your pursuits but all things come into conflict and only when you know your priorities can you act in concert with them. when the right to make big sums of money comes at the expense of the workers rights to have a secure and fair work place the latter wins in my book. look i have been on both sides of the fence. management rights at this point in time are at a high in the post war economy. i see it every day. there are alot of managers in the private and public sector that see employees only as a means to an end their end. without unions there is very little job or discipline protection. period. the law does not currently support the worker. now the worker can just turn the other cheek and take it or they can do something to even the playing field. the unions are that avenue. yes the unions go too far sometimes but so does management. the point that you just can not grasp is that you and the workers have to have a relationship for your business to work. if the workers chose to do that through a union that it their right. pure and simple. in that case if you want to have a good business that is ethical fair to workers and successful in business you have to have a relationship with the union. period. you have to try to understand what the union represents and why it is of importance. that means that you have to do two action things you have to listen and you have to try to empathize. i mean listen as in listening to the message not just listening as you do here so you can build an argument against what is said but actually listen. empathy is that second part. this thread just kills me. you want to rail about unions because of thier exccesses but that is stupid. it just opens you up to the same philosophy. we can rail probably to greater degree about mgt excesses. you trivialize what the unions represents. as long as you do that you will never ever really be able to dig beyond the headlines and get to some creative solutions. lets face it there have been some unions or locals that have been horrible. what i dont understand is why the members have not voted them off the property or de certified them. i also think in the past 30 years the unions that did run amok have been curtailed quite a bit. roy roy roy i think you are right. i am certainly not trying to give the impression that unions are blameless. just the opposite my point is the unions are here and management is here and the whole blame game is pointless. it centers on the past and we need to live in the future. unions have a legitimate purpose and so does management. anyway i agree with what you have posted here about this. on another subject how is the snow you are probably tired of it but out here we are getting a big blast of arctic air and are pissed because the moisture does not seem to be developing to give us snow. i will hope for a little snow to play in this weekend. .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

on wed 15 feb 2006 051925 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on tue 14 feb 2006 193929 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote i think i just figured it out miles. . . . on star trek a science fiction fantasy program no one works to make a profit / income they work because they want to. all your sustenance lodging and clothing comes from somewhere probably a governmental agency and cost nothing or from a replicator provided by the afore mentioned entity. and tom thinks thats the way it should be . . . . . thats a pretty insane thing to say. ridicule doesnt fit yoou well you use stupid analogies. no it fits t-bones attitudes that the developers / managers of business should not be rewarded according to their efforts. you also dont do miles any justice. he at least is trying to argue based on his beliefs. actually i respect miles highly but appears from your reply you dont want to see that and admit it. i dont agreee with miles but i repect the guy. after all we are all just products of our experienes and it sounds like a couple of his family businesses had financial trouble that the unions somehow made worse. probably so. many unions have no more mission than to take over the management of a mid-sized business so they can control operations and they do it under the guise of supporting employee needs. you on the other hand as i recall are just pissed off because some workers got screwed and the union didnt help them. at least that is what i remember you saying a while back. oh yeah that and that unions are dinosaurs. im still trying to figure that one out. ya know ill just bet youve never faced an eviction that would toss you and your family into the street because your union failed to provide strike pay or had to beg family members for money to feed your children because welfare didnt in that time / place consider being on strike as reason for food stamps. or watched a union called strike no rank and file vote taken force an entire town of 45000 into an economic depression. pissed off no its just that these stupid rants about the virtues of unions are outweighed by the fact that they have outlived their usefulness that they need to be fossilized in the museums with the dinosaur bones since modern laws enforce better employee treatment and wages. but lets not forget the role played by money / dues / benefit grubbing unions in the 10x average inflation of consumer prices since the mid 60s. there that should clear up your confusion. if not . . . . then you just might be a deceived union member. or you might be ignorant. and you could be just plain nosey. your all or nothing sensationalism in your post pretty much points to the latter. you really need too get a grip budd. slow down relax and look at things with some perspective. nothng is black and white it is all shades of grey. you really sound like some guy sitting in a bar with a beer in his handwearing a windbreaker with the name of the bar on the back of it yelling and ranting with no one listening. so if thats what i want to do whats it to you personally i think you should spend more time minding your own business instead of telling me how i should be. if you dont like me kill file me. -- budd cochran romans 323 romans 623 john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

on wed 15 feb 2006 175825 gmt tbone tbonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote really miles i thought that the purpose of a corporation was to provide a service or product and make money doing it but your description shows clearly where your head is. come on miles get your head out. making money is why corporations exist. that is the reason. it is not a bad reason. making money is why unions exist to a large degree too. we are a capitalist society and that is not a bad thing. money is not a dirty word. we are getting hung up on issues that are not really the issue. rotflmbo!!!! you dare try to tell me how i should be and you dont even know who youre correcting in this post from t-bone. -- budd cochran romans 323 romans 623 john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : theguy

on wed 15 feb 2006 141007 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 051925 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on tue 14 feb 2006 193929 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote i think i just figured it out miles. . . . on star trek a science fiction fantasy program no one works to make a profit / income they work because they want to. all your sustenance lodging and clothing comes from somewhere probably a governmental agency and cost nothing or from a replicator provided by the afore mentioned entity. and tom thinks thats the way it should be . . . . . thats a pretty insane thing to say. ridicule doesnt fit yoou well you use stupid analogies. no it fits t-bones attitudes that the developers / managers of business should not be rewarded according to their efforts. you also dont do miles any justice. he at least is trying to argue based on his beliefs. actually i respect miles highly but appears from your reply you dont want to see that and admit it. i dont agreee with miles but i repect the guy. after all we are all just products of our experienes and it sounds like a couple of his family businesses had financial trouble that the unions somehow made worse. probably so. many unions have no more mission than to take over the management of a mid-sized business so they can control operations and they do it under the guise of supporting employee needs. you on the other hand as i recall are just pissed off because some workers got screwed and the union didnt help them. at least that is what i remember you saying a while back. oh yeah that and that unions are dinosaurs. im still trying to figure that one out. ya know ill just bet youve never faced an eviction that would toss you and your family into the street because your union failed to provide strike pay or had to beg family members for money to feed your children because welfare didnt in that time / place consider being on strike as reason for food stamps. or watched a union called strike no rank and file vote taken force an entire town of 45000 into an economic depression. pissed off no its just that these stupid rants about the virtues of unions are outweighed by the fact that they have outlived their usefulness that they need to be fossilized in the museums with the dinosaur bones since modern laws enforce better employee treatment and wages. but lets not forget the role played by money / dues / benefit grubbing unions in the 10x average inflation of consumer prices since the mid 60s. there that should clear up your confusion. if not . . . . then you just might be a deceived union member. or you might be ignorant. and you could be just plain nosey. your all or nothing sensationalism in your post pretty much points to the latter. you really need too get a grip budd. slow down relax and look at things with some perspective. nothng is black and white it is all shades of grey. you really sound like some guy sitting in a bar with a beer in his handwearing a windbreaker with the name of the bar on the back of it yelling and ranting with no one listening. so if thats what i want to do whats it to you personally i think you should spend more time minding your own business instead of telling me how i should be. if you dont like me kill file me. that seems to be your mantra lately. i dont kill file anyone budd. i read pretty much everything from everyone. everyone has a good point from time to time. .

From : theguy

on wed 15 feb 2006 141304 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 175825 gmt tbone tbonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote really miles i thought that the purpose of a corporation was to provide a service or product and make money doing it but your description shows clearly where your head is. come on miles get your head out. making money is why corporations exist. that is the reason. it is not a bad reason. making money is why unions exist to a large degree too. we are a capitalist society and that is not a bad thing. money is not a dirty word. we are getting hung up on issues that are not really the issue. rotflmbo!!!! you dare try to tell me how i should be and you dont even know who youre correcting in this post from t-bone. read again i was adding to what tbone said but then what does it matter. you read what you want to anyway. you would not have even noticed or commented on this exept i commented on what you said in another post so now you are going to try to find any little thing that you can to try to show your superiority which is a real paradox for you. you are the main example of someone here that has no interest in listening budd. you dont listen to a thing anyone says you just keep throwing out shit until someone hurts your feelings then you throw relidion and illness into it trying to get them to stop. its wierd at times you can be decent but for the most part the last couple of months you have been a mess. maybe it is the drugs but if you know that relax before you post. .

From : tbone

budd cochran wrote i think i just figured it out miles. . . . on star trek a science fiction fantasy program no one works to make a profit / income they work because they want to. all your sustenance lodging and clothing comes from somewhere probably a governmental agency and cost nothing or from a replicator provided by the afore mentioned entity. and tom thinks thats the way it should be . . . . . yep that pretty much seems like his ideal situation. that would be everybodys ideal situation but human nature would never allow it to happen even if technology could. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

on tue 14 feb 2006 193929 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote i think i just figured it out miles. . . . on star trek a science fiction fantasy program no one works to make a profit / income they work because they want to. all your sustenance lodging and clothing comes from somewhere probably a governmental agency and cost nothing or from a replicator provided by the afore mentioned entity. and tom thinks thats the way it should be . . . . . thats a pretty insane thing to say. ridicule doesnt fit yoou well you use stupid analogies. no it fits t-bones attitudes that the developers / managers of business should not be rewarded according to their efforts. more complete horseshit from you. i have no problem for people being rewarded for their efforts but thre is a point where it goes beyond a reward and into pure greed. i also have a problem when these people screw up and dont take the blame for it and expect others to take the loss for it. probably so. many unions have no more mission than to take over the management of a mid-sized business so they can control operations and they do it under the guise of supporting employee needs. lol another claim that you have no possible way of backing up. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

theguy wrote i dont agreee with miles but i repect the guy. after all we are all just products of our experienes and it sounds like a couple of his family businesses had financial trouble that the unions somehow made worse. i have worked from both sides and therefore see both sides of the fence. no you only see your side. most have not done so. when it is your own time and life invested into a company of your own then and only then can you understand the other side. yawn more complete crap. stop trying to blend the corporate world with the independant small business owner to support your weak arguments. most of these corporate execs are just hired guns and have little concern about the company other than their paycheck and possible reputation. if these companies fold big deal they will just float to the next on on their golden parachute. otherwise workers think everyone in the corporate world above them is arrogant and greedy and dont deserve what they have. that is because in many cases they dont. they take what they want because they can nothing more and the ones underneath them are the ones that in many cases have to bust their rumps and give things up so they can. i know better than that. na you are just blinded by your own narrow minded greed. the thing is miles its people like you that give capitalism a really bad name. didnt have financial problems. the unions certainly did try to run us out using strong arm tactics but they failed. the little guy won and the non-union employess benifited from fighting back against the unions. how exactly did they benefit miles does your family pay union rates and supply the same level of health care as the union shops if not then only ones that benefited were the owners your family. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : tbone

theguy wrote i also think the melodrama of saying that workers think that everyone in the corporate world above them is arrogant and greedy........... is a huge overstatement. just the opposite is true and i think that you know that. no i dont know that. i know too many people with tbones attitude towards corporations. then that should tell you something miles. however those workers have their own time and life invested into a company and want to protet their interests too. just the same as you. not the same at all. not even close. people who own their own business have far more at risk. theyve invested their life savings into the company and will use everything they have to keep it afloat in bad times. if the company folds they often fold with it. workers are just out of a job. owners are out far more. to say its all just the same is just wrong! complete bs again. your argument is at best only partially valid during the business startup. once the business returns your initial investment your argument holds no water. well that is not true in your case where you intend to collect your full salary and benefits until the day you die or your business folds whichever comes first. funny how you complain about a meat packer making $16 an hour costing you more for meat when you will be pulling your full salary long after you stop working at all. does this not also make the rest of us pay more. i guess that its ok when it is you collecting instead of paying right it really is simply just the two parts each worrying about their own needs each believing that the other can not be trusted with themon thier own. that is true. i just hear from too many workers who have no comprehension of what its like to be on the other side. they do this because of people like you. so they get together and form agreements contracts that try to reach a point where both sides needs are pretected. thats great but in reality each tries to do whatever it takes to muscle the other their way. they do what they need to find the leverage to do so. its not one big happy family quite often. at least you see that both sides can be assholes not just the loabor side its a start. without unions we would not be the country that we are and we would not enjoy the status that makes america america. unions are needed only in a few select markets where balance is skewed. lol perhaps you should crack a few history books. in the vast majority of sectors normal market principals prevail providing a natural balance. natural balance my ass. if i want to keep a skilled worker then i have to pay them or theyll vote with their feet. lol only if they have somewhere else to go but in a world of outsourcing that becomes less and less a problem. companies compete for skilled workers. only in a few areas is this balance not present and thus unions needed. with the exception of the service industry there is no balance. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

people overseas. . 222 312753 43f3ee10$0$27792$6d36acad@titian.nntpserver.com on wed 15 feb 2006 141007 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 051925 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on tue 14 feb 2006 193929 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote i think i just figured it out miles. . . . on star trek a science fiction fantasy program no one works to make a profit / income they work because they want to. all your sustenance lodging and clothing comes from somewhere probably a governmental agency and cost nothing or from a replicator provided by the afore mentioned entity. and tom thinks thats the way it should be . . . . . thats a pretty insane thing to say. ridicule doesnt fit yoou well you use stupid analogies. no it fits t-bones attitudes that the developers / managers of business should not be rewarded according to their efforts. you also dont do miles any justice. he at least is trying to argue based on his beliefs. actually i respect miles highly but appears from your reply you dont want to see that and admit it. i dont agreee with miles but i repect the guy. after all we are all just products of our experienes and it sounds like a couple of his family businesses had financial trouble that the unions somehow made worse. probably so. many unions have no more mission than to take over the management of a mid-sized business so they can control operations and they do it under the guise of supporting employee needs. you on the other hand as i recall are just pissed off because some workers got screwed and the union didnt help them. at least that is what i remember you saying a while back. oh yeah that and that unions are dinosaurs. im still trying to figure that one out. ya know ill just bet youve never faced an eviction that would toss you and your family into the street because your union failed to provide strike pay or had to beg family members for money to feed your children because welfare didnt in that time / place consider being on strike as reason for food stamps. or watched a union called strike no rank and file vote taken force an entire town of 45000 into an economic depression. pissed off no its just that these stupid rants about the virtues of unions are outweighed by the fact that they have outlived their usefulness that they need to be fossilized in the museums with the dinosaur bones since modern laws enforce better employee treatment and wages. but lets not forget the role played by money / dues / benefit grubbing unions in the 10x average inflation of consumer prices since the mid 60s. there that should clear up your confusion. if not . . . . then you just might be a deceived union member. or you might be ignorant. and you could be just plain nosey. your all or nothing sensationalism in your post pretty much points to the latter. you really need too get a grip budd. slow down relax and look at things with some perspective. nothng is black and white it is all shades of grey. you really sound like some guy sitting in a bar with a beer in his handwearing a windbreaker with the name of the bar on the back of it yelling and ranting with no one listening. so if thats what i want to do whats it to you personally i think you should spend more time minding your own business instead of telling me how i should be. if you dont like me kill file me. that seems to be your mantra lately. gee do you think

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

on wed 15 feb 2006 141304 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 175825 gmt tbone tbonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote really miles i thought that the purpose of a corporation was to provide a service or product and make money doing it but your description shows clearly where your head is. come on miles get your head out. making money is why corporations exist. that is the reason. it is not a bad reason. making money is why unions exist to a large degree too. we are a capitalist society and that is not a bad thing. money is not a dirty word. we are getting hung up on issues that are not really the issue. rotflmbo!!!! you dare try to tell me how i should be and you dont even know who youre correcting in this post from t-bone. read again i was adding to what tbone said but then what does it matter. you read what you want to anyway. you would not have even noticed or commented on this exept i commented on what you said in another post so now you are going to try to find any little thing that you can to try to show your superiority which is a real paradox for you. you are the main example of someone here that has no interest in listening budd. you dont listen to a thing anyone says you just keep throwing out shit until someone hurts your feelings then you throw relidion and illness into it trying to get them to stop. aha!!!! hey roy heres one of those clowns that took my report on my health and corrupted it. now am i lying its wierd at times you can be decent but for the most part the last couple of months you have been a mess. maybe it is the drugs but if you know that relax before you post. its not weird that im decent until some clown like you starts with the insults false accusations and other anti-social behavior. what do you expert to get from that treatment of me -- budd cochran romans 323 romans 623 john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : theguy

on wed 15 feb 2006 201930 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 141304 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 175825 gmt tbone tbonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote really miles i thought that the purpose of a corporation was to provide a service or product and make money doing it but your description shows clearly where your head is. come on miles get your head out. making money is why corporations exist. that is the reason. it is not a bad reason. making money is why unions exist to a large degree too. we are a capitalist society and that is not a bad thing. money is not a dirty word. we are getting hung up on issues that are not really the issue. rotflmbo!!!! you dare try to tell me how i should be and you dont even know who youre correcting in this post from t-bone. read again i was adding to what tbone said but then what does it matter. you read what you want to anyway. you would not have even noticed or commented on this exept i commented on what you said in another post so now you are going to try to find any little thing that you can to try to show your superiority which is a real paradox for you. you are the main example of someone here that has no interest in listening budd. you dont listen to a thing anyone says you just keep throwing out shit until someone hurts your feelings then you throw relidion and illness into it trying to get them to stop. aha!!!! hey roy heres one of those clowns that took my report on my health and corrupted it. now am i lying its wierd at times you can be decent but for the most part the last couple of months you have been a mess. maybe it is the drugs but if you know that relax before you post. its not weird that im decent until some clown like you starts with the insults false accusations and other anti-social behavior. what do you expert to get from that treatment of me i really dont have that high of expectations of you in the first place budd. and i have not been dissapointed. .

From : roy

on wed 15 feb 2006 132911 -0500 roy roy@home.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 125513 -0500 roy roy@home.net wrote theguy wrote really fwiw the world can only live well when there is balance. as far as unions they give balance to workers rights. they can in some situations. in others unions have gotten way to big and powerfull and destroyed otherwise good companies. they have hurt industries by subsidizing union contractors such that they can bid below cost to shove out anyone else. thats just plain wrong and is not benificial to society as a whole. miles id expect you to look at both sides of a issue. please read up on the demise of eastern airlines with a open mind. ill see if i can find a link tonight. there is a ton of stuff miles also on frank lorenzo easterns owner either yahoo or google. just trying to point out that horrible stuff happens on both side of the street. roy i second what roy said. but keep in mind that it isnt just the headlines where this is an important issue. in my opinion it is behind the headlines where this union/management issue takes on its most important facet. it is in the lives of individual people that i am the most concerned about. as i get older i have spent some time thinking about values and what i would like to be remembered for. about what is really important in life. while making money and having toys is important and i like money and toys it isnt the most important thing and it isnt what i want to be remembered for. fairness with my relationships toward people is much more important. how we interact in the business world with people and how we treat them is really bigger than anything else. that is a legacy that you will leave and the real struggle in america is on the individual level. i believe in capitalism and wish you well in all your pursuits but all things come into conflict and only when you know your priorities can you act in concert with them. when the right to make big sums of money comes at the expense of the workers rights to have a secure and fair work place the latter wins in my book. look i have been on both sides of the fence. management rights at this point in time are at a high in the post war economy. i see it every day. there are alot of managers in the private and public sector that see employees only as a means to an end their end. without unions there is very little job or discipline protection. period. the law does not currently support the worker. now the worker can just turn the other cheek and take it or they can do something to even the playing field. the unions are that avenue. yes the unions go too far sometimes but so does management. the point that you just can not grasp is that you and the workers have to have a relationship for your business to work. if the workers chose to do that through a union that it their right. pure and simple. in that case if you want to have a good business that is ethical fair to workers and successful in business you have to have a relationship with the union. period. you have to try to understand what the union represents and why it is of importance. that means that you have to do two action things you have to listen and you have to try to empathize. i mean listen as in listening to the message not just listening as you do here so you can build an argument against what is said but actually listen. empathy is that second part. this thread just kills me. you want to rail about unions because of thier exccesses but that is stupid. it just opens you up to the same philosophy. we can rail probably to greater degree about mgt excesses. you trivialize what the unions represents. as long as you do that you will never ever really be able to dig beyond the headlines and get to some creative solutions. lets face it there have been some unions or locals that have been horrible. what i dont understand is why the members have not voted them off the property or de certified them. i also think in the past 30 years the unions that did run amok have been curtailed quite a bit. roy roy roy i think you are right. i am certainly not trying to give the impression that unions are blameless. just the opposite my point is the unions are here and management is here and the whole blame game is pointless. it centers on the past and we need to live in the future. unions have a legitimate purpose and so does management. there has to be give and take by both parties. anyway i agree with what you have posted here about this. on another subject how is the snow you are probably tired of it but out here we are getting a big blast of arctic air and are pissed because the moisture does not seem to be developing to give us snow. i will hope fo

From : roy

on wed 15 feb 2006 141304 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 175825 gmt tbone tbonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote really miles i thought that the purpose of a corporation was to provide a service or product and make money doing it but your description shows clearly where your head is. come on miles get your head out. making money is why corporations exist. that is the reason. it is not a bad reason. making money is why unions exist to a large degree too. we are a capitalist society and that is not a bad thing. money is not a dirty word. we are getting hung up on issues that are not really the issue. rotflmbo!!!! you dare try to tell me how i should be and you dont even know who youre correcting in this post from t-bone. read again i was adding to what tbone said but then what does it matter. you read what you want to anyway. you would not have even noticed or commented on this exept i commented on what you said in another post so now you are going to try to find any little thing that you can to try to show your superiority which is a real paradox for you. you are the main example of someone here that has no interest in listening budd. you dont listen to a thing anyone says you just keep throwing out shit until someone hurts your feelings then you throw relidion and illness into it trying to get them to stop. aha!!!! hey roy heres one of those clowns that took my report on my health and corrupted it. now am i lying i never said you were lying. i said that i didnt remember reading it. i think and i may be wrong but tg just mentioned the pattern that i wrote about earlier. im sure he will clarify. roy .

From : professor licker

miles wrote unions are needed only in a few select markets where balance is skewed. in the vast majority of sectors normal market principals prevail providing a natural balance. if i want to keep a skilled worker then i have to pay them or theyll vote with their feet. companies compete for skilled workers. only in a few areas is this balance not present and thus unions needed. a union is there also to make sure the company follows osha rules without the worker worry about not being fired. what i mean is in a non union plant the company is behind on production through no fault of the workers. the company management wants to take a few short cuts to increase production and exceed max output of the equipment. any workers that refuse are threaten with being fired or laid off. the workers comply with management because they have a family to feed. no one gets hurt and osha does not know a thing. some drops a dime to management but when osha investigates they find no proof that short cuts were taking. paperwork shows everything was produced within all osha and manufacture guidelines. osha leaves and the company retaliates by removing the coffee pot and coke machine from the break room. they also cut out health insurance to reinforce that they are management and what they say goes. in a union plant given the same situation the workers refuse to exceed the max output of equipment as designed and refuse to take shortcuts. the union will force the company to abide by the manufacture guidelines for the equipment and not take any short cuts unless there is a safety review that determines if it is safe to proceed. the company can still retaliate by removing coffee and coke machines. the company would not be able to cut pay or benefits. as in all working places management makes the big decisions on what to invest in and how to proceed. the worker is the one in the trenches making the money for the company. they must live by all the bad financial decisions that management makes. yet the company is fast to blame the union if they are doing bad. the union worker does not make financial decisions that affect the company but the ceo and his management team want to blame the union worker when they fail to steer the company in the right direction. remember that the union can only ask for wages and benefits during negotiations. the company and the union meet and have discussions on what each would like. if the company feels the request for wage increase is to high or some benefits may hurt the company then they make a counter offer. some where in between what the company wants and what the union wants is usually where the settle on. yes i have worked both sides of the fence and i also have worked under the civil service system. given my choice i would stay union before non union and civil service. sarge .

From : professor licker

ramman wrote 25 years ago i was one of the line electricians in a uaw shop in east moline illinois john deere harvestor works. it was commonplace for a worker to deliberately break a mig trigger or cause a jam on the overhead power & free conveyor or break the pendant on an overhead hoist in order to get down time. wed replace 810 mig triggers a week and the millrights would get calls to un-jam the p&f system at least once a shift. i cant begin to tell you the number of hoist pendants i repaired in a weeks time. a mig trigger would take 15 mins to fix and a p&f jam would easily get these bozos 2030 mins of stand-around with your thumb up your ass time. other assembly stations in the plant had their own methods to steal time. happened everywhere from the laser shear to the horizontal milling machines and broaches all the way out back to final assembly. if you were a good worker the shop steward would have a word with you and hint that maybe you ought to slow down. then if you didnt slow down your car would end up with the tires slashed or youd open your locker before the start of your shift and find your work boots full of leader-pin oil. it was a general conspiracy by the union rank & file to screw-over the company. similar crap occurs in every uaw shop ive ever been in or heard of. so to the union worker i say dont ever complain about what a union-made product costs to buy or wonder why you lost your job to the people overseas. i seen the same thing happen at non union plants. peer pressure among coworkers occur in both union and non union plants. if a worker is intentionally creating down time then the company should be able to prove that. once proved then worker should be disciplined or fired depending on the severity of the incident and how many prior incidents this person had. if you were being harassed by the steward or fellow union members then a formal complaint should have been filed with the president of the local. if he failed to address your complaints then the worker should have filed complaints with the uaw district representative. you should keep working all the way up to the president of the uaw. once you establish a paper trail of the incidents and complaints filed and nothing was done to address the issue then the worker should have filed legal action against the union and each member that did the harassing. i do support the unions and a member of the uswa working in a chemical plant. i am a union steward and handle grievance with local management. i still have a job to do at the plant beside be a steward. as a union steward i make sure the company follows the contract and all letters of agreement. i also make sure they follow all procedures and guidelines while operating. the other day they want to increase production and the operator refused to increase production since he was already running at his max rates per design of the equipment. the engineer and his foreman keep tell him dont worry the equipment has a built in safety factor that reduces the design max rate. the increase would still be below the max but above the max minus the safety factor so in reality he would not be exceeding the equipments design rate. the union backed the operator and the company back down. union proud and union made. sarge .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

on wed 15 feb 2006 141304 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 175825 gmt tbone tbonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote really miles i thought that the purpose of a corporation was to provide a service or product and make money doing it but your description shows clearly where your head is. come on miles get your head out. making money is why corporations exist. that is the reason. it is not a bad reason. making money is why unions exist to a large degree too. we are a capitalist society and that is not a bad thing. money is not a dirty word. we are getting hung up on issues that are not really the issue. rotflmbo!!!! you dare try to tell me how i should be and you dont even know who youre correcting in this post from t-bone. read again i was adding to what tbone said but then what does it matter. you read what you want to anyway. you would not have even noticed or commented on this exept i commented on what you said in another post so now you are going to try to find any little thing that you can to try to show your superiority which is a real paradox for you. you are the main example of someone here that has no interest in listening budd. you dont listen to a thing anyone says you just keep throwing out shit until someone hurts your feelings then you throw relidion and illness into it trying to get them to stop. aha!!!! hey roy heres one of those clowns that took my report on my health and corrupted it. now am i lying i never said you were lying. i said that i didnt remember reading it. i think and i may be wrong but tg just mentioned the pattern that i wrote about earlier. im sure he will clarify. roy i dont give a fig if he does. -- budd cochran romans 323 romans 623 john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

on wed 15 feb 2006 201930 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 141304 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 175825 gmt tbone tbonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote really miles i thought that the purpose of a corporation was to provide a service or product and make money doing it but your description shows clearly where your head is. come on miles get your head out. making money is why corporations exist. that is the reason. it is not a bad reason. making money is why unions exist to a large degree too. we are a capitalist society and that is not a bad thing. money is not a dirty word. we are getting hung up on issues that are not really the issue. rotflmbo!!!! you dare try to tell me how i should be and you dont even know who youre correcting in this post from t-bone. read again i was adding to what tbone said but then what does it matter. you read what you want to anyway. you would not have even noticed or commented on this exept i commented on what you said in another post so now you are going to try to find any little thing that you can to try to show your superiority which is a real paradox for you. you are the main example of someone here that has no interest in listening budd. you dont listen to a thing anyone says you just keep throwing out shit until someone hurts your feelings then you throw relidion and illness into it trying to get them to stop. aha!!!! hey roy heres one of those clowns that took my report on my health and corrupted it. now am i lying its wierd at times you can be decent but for the most part the last couple of months you have been a mess. maybe it is the drugs but if you know that relax before you post. its not weird that im decent until some clown like you starts with the insults false accusations and other anti-social behavior. what do you expert to get from that treatment of me i really dont have that high of expectations of you in the first place budd. lol then were even. though i have no intention of meeting yours or anyone elses expectations. you do not have the right to establish who or what i should be. and i have not been dissapointed. sarcasm at warp factor 2000 well im happy to have succeeded. -- budd cochran romans 323 romans 623 john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : tbone

on tue 14 feb 2006 193929 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote i think i just figured it out miles. . . . on star trek a science fiction fantasy program no one works to make a profit / income they work because they want to. all your sustenance lodging and clothing comes from somewhere probably a governmental agency and cost nothing or from a replicator provided by the afore mentioned entity. and tom thinks thats the way it should be . . . . . thats a pretty insane thing to say. ridicule doesnt fit yoou well you use stupid analogies. no it fits t-bones attitudes that the developers / managers of business should not be rewarded according to their efforts. more complete horseshit from you. i have no problem for people being rewarded for their efforts but thre is a point where it goes beyond a reward and into pure greed. i also have a problem when these people screw up and dont take the blame for it and expect others to take the loss for it. rotflmbo!!!!!!!! you think every ceo is like enrons ceo bhwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!!!!! no enrons ceo was a thief and although close is not the same thing as being outright greedy or pushing the cost of legal bad decisions onto the workers. probably so. many unions have no more mission than to take over the management of a mid-sized business so they can control operations and they do it under the guise of supporting employee needs. lol another claim that you have no possible way of backing up. gee look at what the guy that turns down an offer to back up a claim says about another persons opinion. there is no need and max with all his talk hasnt either. reality check tom opinions do not have to be backed up with proof. i dont see where you claimed this to be your opinion. it was a general statement that you now admittedly cannot back up. -- if at first you dont succeed youre not cut out for skydiving .

From : roy

on tue 14 feb 2006 193929 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote i think i just figured it out miles. . . . on star trek a science fiction fantasy program no one works to make a profit / income they work because they want to. all your sustenance lodging and clothing comes from somewhere probably a governmental agency and cost nothing or from a replicator provided by the afore mentioned entity. and tom thinks thats the way it should be . . . . . thats a pretty insane thing to say. ridicule doesnt fit yoou well you use stupid analogies. no it fits t-bones attitudes that the developers / managers of business should not be rewarded according to their efforts. more complete horseshit from you. i have no problem for people being rewarded for their efforts but thre is a point where it goes beyond a reward and into pure greed. i also have a problem when these people screw up and dont take the blame for it and expect others to take the loss for it. rotflmbo!!!!!!!! you think every ceo is like enrons ceo bhwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!!!!! probably so. many unions have no more mission than to take over the management of a mid-sized business so they can control operations and they do it under the guise of supporting employee needs. lol another claim that you have no possible way of backing up. gee look at what the guy that turns down an offer to back up a claim says about another persons opinion. reality check tom opinions do not have to be backed up with proof. i would think that a opinion would have some type of substantiation to have any validity. but that is mo.g roy -- budd cochran romans 323 romans 623 john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : roy

on tue 14 feb 2006 193929 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote i think i just figured it out miles. . . . on star trek a science fiction fantasy program no one works to make a profit / income they work because they want to. all your sustenance lodging and clothing comes from somewhere probably a governmental agency and cost nothing or from a replicator provided by the afore mentioned entity. and tom thinks thats the way it should be . . . . . thats a pretty insane thing to say. ridicule doesnt fit yoou well you use stupid analogies. no it fits t-bones attitudes that the developers / managers of business should not be rewarded according to their efforts. you also dont do miles any justice. he at least is trying to argue based on his beliefs. actually i respect miles highly but appears from your reply you dont want to see that and admit it. i dont agreee with miles but i repect the guy. after all we are all just products of our experienes and it sounds like a couple of his family businesses had financial trouble that the unions somehow made worse. probably so. many unions have no more mission than to take over the management of a mid-sized business so they can control operations and they do it under the guise of supporting employee needs. you on the other hand as i recall are just pissed off because some workers got screwed and the union didnt help them. at least that is what i remember you saying a while back. oh yeah that and that unions are dinosaurs. im still trying to figure that one out. ya know ill just bet youve never faced an eviction that would toss you and your family into the street because your union failed to provide strike pay or had to beg family members for money to feed your children because welfare didnt in that time / place consider being on strike as reason for food stamps. or watched a union called strike no rank and file vote taken force an entire town of 45000 into an economic depression. pissed off no its just that these stupid rants about the virtues of unions are outweighed by the fact that they have outlived their usefulness that they need to be fossilized in the museums with the dinosaur bones since modern laws enforce better employee treatment and wages. but lets not forget the role played by money / dues / benefit grubbing unions in the 10x average inflation of consumer prices since the mid 60s. no but i have seen a owner trash a airline and screw thousands of workers. of course he needed a little help reagan. end result lorenzo was declared incompentent and banned from the airline industry for life by the feds. but it was too late the damage was done. dont believe me use yahoo and type frank lorenzo. there a horror stories on both sides it is about time you realized that. there that should clear up your confusion. if not . . . . then you just might be a deceived union memembe im a informed union member. roy -- budd cochran romans 323 romans 623 john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : theguy

on thu 16 feb 2006 051846 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 141304 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 175825 gmt tbone tbonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote really miles i thought that the purpose of a corporation was to provide a service or product and make money doing it but your description shows clearly where your head is. come on miles get your head out. making money is why corporations exist. that is the reason. it is not a bad reason. making money is why unions exist to a large degree too. we are a capitalist society and that is not a bad thing. money is not a dirty word. we are getting hung up on issues that are not really the issue. rotflmbo!!!! you dare try to tell me how i should be and you dont even know who youre correcting in this post from t-bone. read again i was adding to what tbone said but then what does it matter. you read what you want to anyway. you would not have even noticed or commented on this exept i commented on what you said in another post so now you are going to try to find any little thing that you can to try to show your superiority which is a real paradox for you. you are the main example of someone here that has no interest in listening budd. you dont listen to a thing anyone says you just keep throwing out shit until someone hurts your feelings then you throw relidion and illness into it trying to get them to stop. aha!!!! hey roy heres one of those clowns that took my report on my health and corrupted it. now am i lying i never said you were lying. i said that i didnt remember reading it. i think and i may be wrong but tg just mentioned the pattern that i wrote about earlier. im sure he will clarify. roy i dont give a fig if he does. dont worry then i wont. i just cant find the motiviation today to go over that again. roy really did say it better than i could a few days back anyhow. budd i am sure you think im picking on you. never my intention and even though i didnt say it real nicely what i said was for your benefit. i said it in the hopes that you would stop and listen and realize that you have been acting real strange lately and that in your own interest you should relax and take a deep breath. it doesnt become you. now you dont have to listen to me........i accept your right to act however you would like im just saying you are acting like a putz and you may want to think about that. if you are ok with that then so be it. .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

on tue 14 feb 2006 193929 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote i think i just figured it out miles. . . . on star trek a science fiction fantasy program no one works to make a profit / income they work because they want to. all your sustenance lodging and clothing comes from somewhere probably a governmental agency and cost nothing or from a replicator provided by the afore mentioned entity. and tom thinks thats the way it should be . . . . . thats a pretty insane thing to say. ridicule doesnt fit yoou well you use stupid analogies. no it fits t-bones attitudes that the developers / managers of business should not be rewarded according to their efforts. more complete horseshit from you. i have no problem for people being rewarded for their efforts but thre is a point where it goes beyond a reward and into pure greed. i also have a problem when these people screw up and dont take the blame for it and expect others to take the loss for it. rotflmbo!!!!!!!! you think every ceo is like enrons ceo bhwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!!!!! no enrons ceo was a thief and although close is not the same thing as being outright greedy or pushing the cost of legal bad decisions onto the workers. guess what tom greed can be illegal its the basic emotion behind most crimes of theft. probably so. many unions have no more mission than to take over the management of a mid-sized business so they can control operations and they do it under the guise of supporting employee needs. lol another claim that you have no possible way of backing up. gee look at what the guy that turns down an offer to back up a claim says about another persons opinion. there is no need and max with all his talk hasnt either. he doesnt need the assistance and it remains his decison. you claimed the lack of binary posting capacity so i offered to help and you turned it down. that tells me that you either do not care about your credibility or consider yourself to be superior to everyone else. reality check tom opinions do not have to be backed up with proof. i dont see where you claimed this to be your opinion. it was a general statement that you now admittedly cannot back up. im sorry i didnt know i had to write opinion being stated on any posts containing an opinion. does that apply to you as well if not then it doesnt apply to me either. -- budd cochran romans 323 romans 623 john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : Annonymous

lickers@lickersacademy.edu writes if you were being harassed by the steward or fellow union members then a formal complaint should have been filed with the president of the local. if he failed to address your complaints then the worker should have filed complaints with the uaw district representative. you should keep working all the way up to the president of the uaw. once you establish a paper trail of the incidents and complaints filed and nothing was done to address the issue then the worker should have filed legal action against the union and each member that did the harassing. do that in a uaw shop and youll get a visit my friend. how freekin naive are you what you suggest may be the proper procedure but youre sure going to make hundreds of enemies among your peers along the way and your life will become a living hell. .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

on thu 16 feb 2006 051846 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 141304 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 175825 gmt tbone tbonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote really miles i thought that the purpose of a corporation was to provide a service or product and make money doing it but your description shows clearly where your head is. come on miles get your head out. making money is why corporations exist. that is the reason. it is not a bad reason. making money is why unions exist to a large degree too. we are a capitalist society and that is not a bad thing. money is not a dirty word. we are getting hung up on issues that are not really the issue. rotflmbo!!!! you dare try to tell me how i should be and you dont even know who youre correcting in this post from t-bone. read again i was adding to what tbone said but then what does it matter. you read what you want to anyway. you would not have even noticed or commented on this exept i commented on what you said in another post so now you are going to try to find any little thing that you can to try to show your superiority which is a real paradox for you. you are the main example of someone here that has no interest in listening budd. you dont listen to a thing anyone says you just keep throwing out shit until someone hurts your feelings then you throw relidion and illness into it trying to get them to stop. aha!!!! hey roy heres one of those clowns that took my report on my health and corrupted it. now am i lying i never said you were lying. i said that i didnt remember reading it. i think and i may be wrong but tg just mentioned the pattern that i wrote about earlier. im sure he will clarify. roy i dont give a fig if he does. dont worry then i wont. i just cant find the motiviation today to go over that again. roy really did say it better than i could a few days back anyhow. whatever. roys one of those that has been decieved by the corruption of my report on my health. budd i am sure you think im picking on you. never my intention and even though i didnt say it real nicely what i said was for your benefit. then take this for what its worth i dont need your advice or guidance on my health issues. i have a fully trained medical staff for that. dont take a report of my conditions made in public to numerous concerned friends to be a whiney complaint its not. i said it in the hopes that you would stop and listen and realize that you have been acting real strange lately and that in your own interest you should relax and take a deep breath. i am being myself. i have aged since i first joined this group and that changes ones outlook and personality live with it or killfile me. the clientele of the group has changed as well with an increase in less sociable personalities since 1996 therefore i react differently. killfile me or accept it. it doesnt become you. nor does acting like my maiden aunt become you mother hen. if i want your advice ill give it to you. now you dont have to listen to me........i accept your right to act however you would like im just saying you are acting like a putz and you may want to think about that. if you are ok with that then so be it. how many times do i have to tell you that i will be whom i am if you dont like it kill file me. its what i have said since my first day in this group. one thing that does bug me is that youve claimed to have been in the group for a long time and you changed to your present screen name a few years back. you have refused to inform me as to who you were even with an available email address which if you had used it i would have honored a request to keep your i.d. secret. now you expect me to treat you like you are a concerned friend and just accept your kind advice. it aint gonna happen if i dont know who you are. now you know the main reason i dont listen to your advice about my persoanlity changes. if you are someone thats been around a while then youve seen the changes in the overall tone of this group and did nothing to help maintain the once friendly always helpful reputation it once had. i tried and failed because of the apathy of so many including yourself. fine then realize that the apathy could be causing some of the bitterness you say i have. look at the people weve lost bryon foust and his biodiesel info for example and also realize it could be because of the apathy. -- budd cochran romans 323 romans 623 john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : roy

on thu 16 feb 2006 171949 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on thu 16 feb 2006 051846 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 141304 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 175825 gmt tbone tbonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote really miles i thought that the purpose of a corporation was to provide a service or product and make money doing it but your description shows clearly where your head is. come on miles get your head out. making money is why corporations exist. that is the reason. it is not a bad reason. making money is why unions exist to a large degree too. we are a capitalist society and that is not a bad thing. money is not a dirty word. we are getting hung up on issues that are not really the issue. rotflmbo!!!! you dare try to tell me how i should be and you dont even know who youre correcting in this post from t-bone. read again i was adding to what tbone said but then what does it matter. you read what you want to anyway. you would not have even noticed or commented on this exept i commented on what you said in another post so now you are going to try to find any little thing that you can to try to show your superiority which is a real paradox for you. you are the main example of someone here that has no interest in listening budd. you dont listen to a thing anyone says you just keep throwing out shit until someone hurts your feelings then you throw relidion and illness into it trying to get them to stop. aha!!!! hey roy heres one of those clowns that took my report on my health and corrupted it. now am i lying i never said you were lying. i said that i didnt remember reading it. i think and i may be wrong but tg just mentioned the pattern that i wrote about earlier. im sure he will clarify. roy i dont give a fig if he does. dont worry then i wont. i just cant find the motiviation today to go over that again. roy really did say it better than i could a few days back anyhow. whatever. roys one of those that has been decieved by the corruption of my report on my health. oh my gosh. poor roy. budd i am sure you think im picking on you. never my intention and even though i didnt say it real nicely what i said was for your benefit. then take this for what its worth i dont need your advice or guidance on my health issues. i have a fully trained medical staff for that. dont take a report of my conditions made in public to numerous concerned friends to be a whiney complaint its not. ok thats fair. ill let you make an ass out yourself. i said it in the hopes that you would stop and listen and realize that you have been acting real strange lately and that in your own interest you should relax and take a deep breath. i am being myself. i have aged since i first joined this group and that changes ones outlook and personality live with it or killfile me. the clientele of the group has changed as well with an increase in less sociable personalities since 1996 therefore i react differently. killfile me or accept it. budd i dont killfile anyone. but i still dont have to accept it. i thinkill just make fun of you instead vbg it doesnt become you. nor does acting like my maiden aunt become you mother hen. if i want your advice ill give it to you. i think you mean if you want my advice youll ask for it........and again that is perfectly fair. i have no problem with that at all. now you dont have to listen to me........i accept your right to act however you would like im just saying you are acting like a putz and you may want to think about that. if you are ok with that then so be it. how many times do i have to tell you that i will be whom i am if you dont like it kill file me. its what i have said since my first day in this group. already addressed. one thing that does bug me is that youve claimed to have been in the group for a long time and you changed to your present screen name a few years back. you have refused to inform me as to who you were even with an available email address which if you had used it i would have honored a request to keep your i.d. secret. i dont remember that...........not saying it didnthappen but i sure dont remember it. i have no idea why you would want my email address and for that matter if you had or have asked for it you are right i would not have given it to you. you really got me here budd why the fuck would you think i would give you my email address so you two could bond bfg sorry it was there i had to. roy .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

on thu 16 feb 2006 051846 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 141304 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 175825 gmt tbone tbonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote really miles i thought that the purpose of a corporation was to provide a service or product and make money doing it but your description shows clearly where your head is. come on miles get your head out. making money is why corporations exist. that is the reason. it is not a bad reason. making money is why unions exist to a large degree too. we are a capitalist society and that is not a bad thing. money is not a dirty word. we are getting hung up on issues that are not really the issue. rotflmbo!!!! you dare try to tell me how i should be and you dont even know who youre correcting in this post from t-bone. read again i was adding to what tbone said but then what does it matter. you read what you want to anyway. you would not have even noticed or commented on this exept i commented on what you said in another post so now you are going to try to find any little thing that you can to try to show your superiority which is a real paradox for you. you are the main example of someone here that has no interest in listening budd. you dont listen to a thing anyone says you just keep throwing out shit until someone hurts your feelings then you throw relidion and illness into it trying to get them to stop. aha!!!! hey roy heres one of those clowns that took my report on my health and corrupted it. now am i lying i never said you were lying. i said that i didnt remember reading it. i think and i may be wrong but tg just mentioned the pattern that i wrote about earlier. im sure he will clarify. roy i dont give a fig if he does. dont worry then i wont. i just cant find the motiviation today to go over that again. roy really did say it better than i could a few days back anyhow. whatever. roys one of those that has been decieved by the corruption of my report on my health. no thats untrue. i said i was tired of hearing about it and further youre useing it as a excuse for what you post. if it was corrupted it was by you. roy whatever. -- budd cochran romans 323 romans 623 john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www.secureix.com *** .

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

on thu 16 feb 2006 171949 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on thu 16 feb 2006 051846 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 141304 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 175825 gmt tbone tbonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote really miles i thought that the purpose of a corporation was to provide a service or product and make money doing it but your description shows clearly where your head is. come on miles get your head out. making money is why corporations exist. that is the reason. it is not a bad reason. making money is why unions exist to a large degree too. we are a capitalist society and that is not a bad thing. money is not a dirty word. we are getting hung up on issues that are not really the issue. rotflmbo!!!! you dare try to tell me how i should be and you dont even know who youre correcting in this post from t-bone. read again i was adding to what tbone said but then what does it matter. you read what you want to anyway. you would not have even noticed or commented on this exept i commented on what you said in another post so now you are going to try to find any little thing that you can to try to show your superiority which is a real paradox for you. you are the main example of someone here that has no interest in listening budd. you dont listen to a thing anyone says you just keep throwing out shit until someone hurts your feelings then you throw relidion and illness into it trying to get them to stop. aha!!!! hey roy heres one of those clowns that took my report on my health and corrupted it. now am i lying i never said you were lying. i said that i didnt remember reading it. i think and i may be wrong but tg just mentioned the pattern that i wrote about earlier. im sure he will clarify. roy i dont give a fig if he does. dont worry then i wont. i just cant find the motiviation today to go over that again. roy really did say it better than i could a few days back anyhow. whatever. roys one of those that has been decieved by the corruption of my report on my health. oh my gosh. poor roy. budd i am sure you think im picking on you. never my intention and even though i didnt say it real nicely what i said was for your benefit. then take this for what its worth i dont need your advice or guidance on my health issues. i have a fully trained medical staff for that. dont take a report of my conditions made in public to numerous concerned friends to be a whiney complaint its not. ok thats fair. ill let you make an ass out yourself. thank you and thanks for setting the example so i can be a complete one. i said it in the hopes that you would stop and listen and realize that you have been acting real strange lately and that in your own interest you should relax and take a deep breath. i am being myself. i have aged since i first joined this group and that changes ones outlook and personality live with it or killfile me. the clientele of the group has changed as well with an increase in less sociable personalities since 1996 therefore i react differently. killfile me or accept it. budd i dont killfile anyone. but i still dont have to accept it. i thinkill just make fun of you instead vbg so you enjoy or gain some vicarious pleasure out of making fun of peoples limitations and health problems . . .you are the one that is sick. it doesnt become you. nor does acting like my maiden aunt become you mother hen. if i want your advice ill give it to you. i think you mean if you want my advice youll ask for it........and again that is perfectly fair. i have no problem with that at all. nope i said what i meant. i dont want your advice. quit spinning and read what is written. now you dont have to listen to me........i accept your right to act however you would like im just saying you are acting like a putz and you may want to think about that. if you are ok with that then so be it. how many times do i have to tell you that i will be whom i am if you dont like it kill file me. its what i have said since my first day in this group. already addressed. one thing that does bug me is that youve claimed to have been in the group for a long time and you changed to your present screen name a few years back. you have refused to inform me as to who you were even with an available email address which if you had used it i would have honored a request to keep your i.d. secret. i dont remember that...........not saying it didnthappen but i sure dont remember it. i have no idea why you would want my email address and for that matter if you had or have asked for it you are right i would not have given it to you. you really got me here budd why the fuck would you think i would give you my email address i dont want your email address. gawd y

From : theguy

on fri 17 feb 2006 013009 -0500 roy roy@home.net wrote on thu 16 feb 2006 171949 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on thu 16 feb 2006 051846 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 141304 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 175825 gmt tbone tbonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote really miles i thought that the purpose of a corporation was to provide a service or product and make money doing it but your description shows clearly where your head is. come on miles get your head out. making money is why corporations exist. that is the reason. it is not a bad reason. making money is why unions exist to a large degree too. we are a capitalist society and that is not a bad thing. money is not a dirty word. we are getting hung up on issues that are not really the issue. rotflmbo!!!! you dare try to tell me how i should be and you dont even know who youre correcting in this post from t-bone. read again i was adding to what tbone said but then what does it matter. you read what you want to anyway. you would not have even noticed or commented on this exept i commented on what you said in another post so now you are going to try to find any little thing that you can to try to show your superiority which is a real paradox for you. you are the main example of someone here that has no interest in listening budd. you dont listen to a thing anyone says you just keep throwing out shit until someone hurts your feelings then you throw relidion and illness into it trying to get them to stop. aha!!!! hey roy heres one of those clowns that took my report on my health and corrupted it. now am i lying i never said you were lying. i said that i didnt remember reading it. i think and i may be wrong but tg just mentioned the pattern that i wrote about earlier. im sure he will clarify. roy i dont give a fig if he does. dont worry then i wont. i just cant find the motiviation today to go over that again. roy really did say it better than i could a few days back anyhow. whatever. roys one of those that has been decieved by the corruption of my report on my health. oh my gosh. poor roy. budd i am sure you think im picking on you. never my intention and even though i didnt say it real nicely what i said was for your benefit. then take this for what its worth i dont need your advice or guidance on my health issues. i have a fully trained medical staff for that. dont take a report of my conditions made in public to numerous concerned friends to be a whiney complaint its not. ok thats fair. ill let you make an ass out yourself. i said it in the hopes that you would stop and listen and realize that you have been acting real strange lately and that in your own interest you should relax and take a deep breath. i am being myself. i have aged since i first joined this group and that changes ones outlook and personality live with it or killfile me. the clientele of the group has changed as well with an increase in less sociable personalities since 1996 therefore i react differently. killfile me or accept it. budd i dont killfile anyone. but i still dont have to accept it. i thinkill just make fun of you instead vbg it doesnt become you. nor does acting like my maiden aunt become you mother hen. if i want your advice ill give it to you. i think you mean if you want my advice youll ask for it........and again that is perfectly fair. i have no problem with that at all. now you dont have to listen to me........i accept your right to act however you would like im just saying you are acting like a putz and you may want to think about that. if you are ok with that then so be it. how many times do i have to tell you that i will be whom i am if you dont like it kill file me. its what i have said since my first day in this group. already addressed. one thing that does bug me is that youve claimed to have been in the group for a long time and you changed to your present screen name a few years back. you have refused to inform me as to who you were even with an available email address which if you had used it i would have honored a request to keep your i.d. secret. i dont remember that...........not saying it didnthappen but i sure dont remember it. i have no idea why you would want my email address and for that matter if you had or have asked for it you are right i would not have given it to you. you really got me here budd why the fuck would you think i would give you my email address so you two could bond bfg sorry it was there i had to. roy ok ill let it slide i walked into that one. .

From : theguy

on fri 17 feb 2006 073105 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on thu 16 feb 2006 171949 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on thu 16 feb 2006 051846 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 141304 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 175825 gmt tbone tbonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote really miles i thought that the purpose of a corporation was to provide a service or product and make money doing it but your description shows clearly where your head is. come on miles get your head out. making money is why corporations exist. that is the reason. it is not a bad reason. making money is why unions exist to a large degree too. we are a capitalist society and that is not a bad thing. money is not a dirty word. we are getting hung up on issues that are not really the issue. rotflmbo!!!! you dare try to tell me how i should be and you dont even know who youre correcting in this post from t-bone. read again i was adding to what tbone said but then what does it matter. you read what you want to anyway. you would not have even noticed or commented on this exept i commented on what you said in another post so now you are going to try to find any little thing that you can to try to show your superiority which is a real paradox for you. you are the main example of someone here that has no interest in listening budd. you dont listen to a thing anyone says you just keep throwing out shit until someone hurts your feelings then you throw relidion and illness into it trying to get them to stop. aha!!!! hey roy heres one of those clowns that took my report on my health and corrupted it. now am i lying i never said you were lying. i said that i didnt remember reading it. i think and i may be wrong but tg just mentioned the pattern that i wrote about earlier. im sure he will clarify. roy i dont give a fig if he does. dont worry then i wont. i just cant find the motiviation today to go over that again. roy really did say it better than i could a few days back anyhow. whatever. roys one of those that has been decieved by the corruption of my report on my health. oh my gosh. poor roy. budd i am sure you think im picking on you. never my intention and even though i didnt say it real nicely what i said was for your benefit. then take this for what its worth i dont need your advice or guidance on my health issues. i have a fully trained medical staff for that. dont take a report of my conditions made in public to numerous concerned friends to be a whiney complaint its not. ok thats fair. ill let you make an ass out yourself. thank you and thanks for setting the example so i can be a complete one. i said it in the hopes that you would stop and listen and realize that you have been acting real strange lately and that in your own interest you should relax and take a deep breath. i am being myself. i have aged since i first joined this group and that changes ones outlook and personality live with it or killfile me. the clientele of the group has changed as well with an increase in less sociable personalities since 1996 therefore i react differently. killfile me or accept it. budd i dont killfile anyone. but i still dont have to accept it. i thinkill just make fun of you instead vbg so you enjoy or gain some vicarious pleasure out of making fun of peoples limitations and health problems . . .you are the one that is sick. that was a joke budd. just trying to lighten things up. look in reality you are absolutely correct. you have the right to be who you chose to be. and i dont always package what i say so well. one of my big shortcomings is patience. i wich i had some i try but it is my weakness. i see several people here try to help you. from my perspective it looks like they are really trying to hlep you.........just to help you out. you just dont want to look or listen...........so i make it worse by getting pissed as you and saying what i have to say in a shitty way. i honestly apologize for the way i say some things. i do not apologize for what i said budd i said it because i hoped you would listen and it would help you out........but again i am impatient and i say it poorly. that doesnt help. in the end you are who you chose to be. i am not on a jump on budd deal so this is it for me. i do wich you the best and i hope it isnt too late when you do decide to stop and listen. it doesnt become you. nor does acting like my maiden aunt become you mother hen. if i want your advice ill give it to you. i think you mean if you want my advice youll ask for it........and again that is perfectly fair. i have no problem with that at all. nope i said what i meant. i dont want your advice. quit spinning and read what is written. now you dont

From : budd cochran mrd150 preciscom spam net

on tue 14 feb 2006 193929 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote i think i just figured it out miles. . . . on star trek a science fiction fantasy program no one works to make a profit / income they work because they want to. all your sustenance lodging and clothing comes from somewhere probably a governmental agency and cost nothing or from a replicator provided by the afore mentioned entity. and tom thinks thats the way it should be . . . . . thats a pretty insane thing to say. ridicule doesnt fit yoou well you use stupid analogies. no it fits t-bones attitudes that the developers / managers of business should not be rewarded according to their efforts. more complete horseshit from you. i have no problem for people being rewarded for their efforts but thre is a point where it goes beyond a reward and into pure greed. i also have a problem when these people screw up and dont take the blame for it and expect others to take the loss for it. rotflmbo!!!!!!!! you think every ceo is like enrons ceo bhwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!!!!! no enrons ceo was a thief and although close is not the same thing as being outright greedy or pushing the cost of legal bad decisions onto the workers. guess what tom greed can be illegal its the basic emotion behind most crimes of theft. sorry budd but the emotion behind a crime is not a crime itself. still having trouble reading tom i said it was behind the crimes i did not mention it being a sin which according to the bible and gods laws is illegal. if the emotions were a crime you would have been convicted of my murder many times by now bfg lol hardly. youre in gods hands as far as that is concerned. talk to him about it. probably so. many unions have no more mission than to take over the management of a mid-sized business so they can control operations and they do it under the guise of supporting employee needs. lol another claim that you have no possible way of backing up. gee look at what the guy that turns down an offer to back up a claim says about another persons opinion. there is no need and max with all his talk hasnt either. he doesnt need the assistance and it remains his decison. i never said that he did but he has yet to post anything either and for him it appears to be much easier. lets see you email it to me and i post it in the group as soon as i download it. . . .thats one count em!!! step difference. you claimed the lack of binary posting capacity so i offered to help and you turned it down. and i appreciate the offer but there would be no point in doing it. can you spell credibility max has never been man enough to admit any type of error especially to me so what would be the point. to be honest tom admitting an error around you is fraught with danger since you like to throw them back into discussions and then claim the author never admitted the mistake or you corrupt it in some way to try and make yourself look better. btw max has admitted to more of his errors than you have to yours. you just launch into a flame fest against the person that catches you in the screw-up. thats not an admission of error. at best he would claim that his different year manual didnt cover what i said and then come up with excuses not to back it up. i have been down this road with him before and know better than to do it again. gee tom how many of us have been down that road before with you hmmm that tells me that you either do not care about your credibility or consider yourself to be superior to everyone else. well budd the reality of the situation is that max is your friend so you will assume him to be the correct one regardless of the facts. really and who was it that gave you the chance to redeem yourself who tom come on you can admit it. reality check tom opinions do not have to be backed up with proof. i dont see where you claimed this to be your opinion. it was a general statement that you now admittedly cannot back up. im sorry i didnt know i had to write opinion being stated on any posts containing an opinion. does that apply to you as well if not then it doesnt apply to me either. many in here including myself use imho or imo to declare an opinion. i dont use it that much because many in here dont give a damn about my opinion so i tend to keep my opinions out of my posts but when i do have on and that is all that it is i do use it so i guess that it does apply to you as well. really then you need to proof read your own posts more and by the way tom to you it matters not if i use those acronyms or not you still jump all over any opinions i post demanding proof. -- budd cochran romans 323 romans 623 john 316-17 ephesians 28-9 *** free account sponsored by secureix.com *** *** encrypt your internet usage with a free vpn account from http//www

From : tbone

on tue 14 feb 2006 193929 -0700 budd cochran mr-d150@preciscom spam.net wrote i think i just figured it out miles. . . . on star trek a science fiction fantasy program no one works to make a profit / income they work because they want to. all your sustenance lodging and clothing comes from somewhere probably a governmental agency and cost nothing or from a replicator provided by the afore mentioned entity. and tom thinks thats the way it should be . . . . . thats a pretty insane thing to say. ridicule doesnt fit yoou well you use stupid analogies. no it fits t-bones attitudes that the developers / managers of business should not be rewarded according to their efforts. more complete horseshit from you. i have no problem for people being rewarded for their efforts but thre is a point where it goes beyond a reward and into pure greed. i also have a problem when these people screw up and dont take the blame for it and expect others to take the loss for it. rotflmbo!!!!!!!! you think every ceo is like enrons ceo bhwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!!!!! no enrons ceo was a thief and although close is not the same thing as being outright greedy or pushing the cost of legal bad decisions onto the workers. guess what tom greed can be illegal its the basic emotion behind most crimes of theft. sorry budd but the emotion behind a crime is not a crime itself. still having trouble reading tom i said it was behind the crimes i did not mention it being a sin which according to the bible and gods laws is illegal. if the emotions were a crime you would have been convicted of my murder many times by now bfg lol hardly. youre in gods hands as far as that is concerned. talk to him about it. probably so. many unions have no more mission than to take over the management of a mid-sized business so they can control operations and they do it under the guise of supporting employee needs. lol another claim that you have no possible way of backing up. gee look at what the guy that turns down an offer to back up a claim says about another persons opinion. there is no need and max with all his talk hasnt either. he doesnt need the assistance and it remains his decison. i never said that he did but he has yet to post anything either and for him it appears to be much easier. lets see you email it to me and i post it in the group as soon as i download it. . . .thats one count em!!! step difference. and yet even with one step easier he has not doen it either. you claimed the lack of binary posting capacity so i offered to help and you turned it down. and i appreciate the offer but there would be no point in doing it. can you spell credibility yep and it has nothing to do with this. max has never been man enough to admit any type of error especially to me so what would be the point. to be honest tom admitting an error around you is fraught with danger since you like to throw them back into discussions and then claim the author never admitted the mistake or you corrupt it in some way to try and make yourself look better. just spin on your part. your admission of error was nothing more than a desperate attempt to cover. you did not say you were wrong only that you didnt see something which also shows just how desperate you are to try and prove me wrong about something. since the ignition module in his vehicle gets its power directly from the ignition switch and not from the ballast resistor you were still wrong regardless of what you didnt see. btw max has admitted to more of his errors than you have to yours. really name 2. you just launch into a flame fest against the person that catches you in the screw-up. thats not an admission of error. lol you really dont have a clue. when im wrong i admit to it but just because i do something a different way than the industry standard doesnt make me wrong and many of these flame wars as you put them are more based on opinion. at best he would claim that his different year manual didnt cover what i said and then come up with excuses not to back it up. i have been down this road with him before and know better than to do it again. gee tom how many of us have been down that road before with you hmmm pkb that tells me that you either do not care about your credibility or consider yourself to be superior to everyone else. well budd the reality of the situation is that max is your friend so you will assume him to be the correct one regardless of the facts. really and who was it that gave you the chance to redeem yourself who tom come on you can admit it. redeem myself in what way the fact that you just said that more than proves my point. i have done nothing wrong other than disagree with your buddy and yet you feel that i need to redeem myself lol. reality check tom opi

From : theguy

on sun 19 feb 2006 184703 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote theguy wrote read again i was adding to what tbone said but then what does it matter. no you did not. you said come on miles and then explained that money is the reason corporations exist...exactly what i said in the first place. your reply was in disagreement with tbone not me! what the fuck does that have to do with the issue anyhow what the fuck crawled up your ass and died .

From : theguy

on sun 19 feb 2006 182104 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote theguy wrote and that is where you are blind and why you will always fight with the unions. people who have bet there lives on the company their future their kids education their retirement etc. have just as much as you to lose. bull! they do not have just as much to lose. if they lose their job they still have any retirement accounts and everything else they own. if a company folds the owner is out everything they own. owners will dump everything they have to keep a company afloat. they will put their own house and any other assets on the line for collateral to bankroll the company. if needed they will pay out of their own pockets to make payroll pay bills etc. they have far more of their $s tied up in the company than the workers. there is simply no comparison in the amount invested and the amount at risk. you are blind! wow that is very sad miles. you are destined with that fucked up attitude to lose. good luck. it may be on a different level but it is ertainly no less important and if you cant understand that then you will be a bad capitalist until you do. sure a job is important to an employee. its not about how important the job is as a comparison. its about how much each side has invested and how much of their own personal property is in direct risk. do employees put all their own assets on the line to keep the company afloat did the employees invest all of their money into the company to get it started and keep it running if you cant understand just how much more an owner has invested and has at risk then you will always be blind to just what an owner deals with. you are putting your needs above their your interests in front of theirs. they see that they will never respect or deal with you without knowing in the back of thier minds that you devalue them. people dont deal well with that at any level in any situation. you gotta try at least to understand it. look at life through their shoes for one. how many companies have you owned and invested your own life savings into your statements have pretty much told me you do not respect the time money risk and personal investment an owner has in a company. you gotta try at least to understand business from the owners side. .

From : roy

roy wrote i also think in the past 30 years the unions that did run amok have been curtailed quite a bit. teachers union still exists. teachers are one place that a union is needed. or were they the union that was involved with your family g seriously what union was roy roy .

From : roy

tbone wrote unions are needed only in a few select markets where balance is skewed. lol perhaps you should crack a few history books. history here is a classic example of why you have the warped beliefs that you do. you live in the past. this is today miles today things are beginning to slide backwards with regard to benifits overtime pay safty the list goes on. bull. many white collar jobs are not union. why that was the case until a few years ago but more and more are joining unions or forming associations. because they are generally not needed because of natural job market balance. companies struggle to find skilled workers and compete against each other to secure them. are you of the belief that skilled workers are white collar roy .

From : roy

roy wrote roy wrote i also think in the past 30 years the unions that did run amok have been curtailed quite a bit. teachers union still exists. teachers are one place that a union is needed. or were they the union that was involved with your family g teachers unions create tenure which is horrible. miles please read what you are writing. the union created the union did this the union did that. again the union or local negotiates with in this case the school dept. they both agree to whatever is in the contract. regards tenure. tenure around here is not reached until 3-5 years. during that time the school admistrators evaluate the teacher. a tenured teacher can be let ago as well. the procedure is longer. it makes the school system keep lousy teachers. i agree that teachers are not paid enough. agreed but what the teachers unions have done over the decades is create an education system that puts the needs of teachers way above that of the education of our kids. whats needed is to get rid of lousy teachers and pay the great ones so theyll stay teaching. the unions do nothing of the sort. here you are again the union. miles you are obsessed. there are two parties to any negotiations. doesnt the other party have any responsability for the outcome of the negotiations or what is agreed to it would seem that you want it all one way yours. now what union was it that was involved with your family roy .

From : roy

roy wrote miles today things are beginning to slide backwards with regard to benifits overtime pay safty the list goes on. the cost of those benifits to a corporation have skyrocketed. especially health care costs. do you realize just how much health insurance costs have risen that companies pay out in premiums these costs have been slid more and more to the employee. along with a much degraded health plan. note hmos are the deal today. what happened to the comprehensive health plan oh it was negotiated away. guess ill blame the owners for that one. a few short years ago i could walk into any hospital or doctors office and be treated anywhere in the country and my medical plan was good. now i have to be refered by a pcp and jump through all sorts of hoops. also i may or may not be treated by the doctor i want because he is not in the network. bottom line health coverage has taken a nosedive. along with that is huge liability insurance costs. fact is the cost of running a business has skyrocketed and not all those costs should be that of the owners only. are you of the belief that skilled workers are white collar huh i made a statement about white collar jobs only. for scientists engineers etc. exactly! they are joining unions and associations. companies are now struggling to find skilled workers for those jobs. it is very difficult to find them so the only way to attract them is through benifits. for most blue collar jobs the supply exceeds the demand skilled or not. please do not try to twist the conversation where it simply is not. not intending to twist anything miles just asked a question based on what you wrote. roy .

From : roy

theguy wrote wow that is very sad miles. you are destined with that fucked up attitude to lose. good luck. whats sad is that you dont realize what a company owner invests and has at risk to lose. no comprehension at all. thats why your attitude is fucked up to the point of seeing only one side. until you have your own firm and invest your life into it youll keep that fucked up attitude. miles the same could be said about you. go back and read your posts throughout this thread you are in cement here. roy .

From : theguy

on mon 20 feb 2006 064422 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote theguy wrote now what the fuck does that mean they sure do. and it is a good fucking thing that they do. in the public sector it is unions alone that have kept our head above ground. teachers unions are why we teachers have tenure. its why we have to keep lousy teachers rather than can their butts and put the money towards the great teachers and keep them so theyll stay teaching. the teachers unions have created a horrible condition where the teachers needs are put way above that of the students. the teachers unions do not benifit the education of our kids. no teachers unions are why they have the little pay that they do. period. management is why we have teachers in plce that do not deserve to be there. the not one teachers contract that takes away management right to remove or discipline a teacher a cause. keep that in mind mile for cause. because management cant get its collective shit together to do that some bad techers stay in place. the excuse for piss poor management is not to remove tenure rights from teachers. it is not to create an atmosphere where management can fire whomevver they want.........you can not be serious about that. that opens up a real can of worms................. the fact is miles i am not aware of any union contract that takes away the right of management to discipline any worker..........they just are gaurenteed two things..........due process and due cause. two very american things i might add. by saying what you said above you can only be saying that workers dont have the right to due process and due cause. the only reason that you could possibly say that is that you believe that manageent is not capable of running any business..........because those are two very fundamental rights. .

From : theguy

on mon 20 feb 2006 064520 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote theguy wrote on sun 19 feb 2006 184703 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote theguy wrote read again i was adding to what tbone said but then what does it matter. no you did not. you said come on miles and then explained that money is the reason corporations exist...exactly what i said in the first place. your reply was in disagreement with tbone not me! what the fuck does that have to do with the issue anyhow what the fuck crawled up your ass and died rofl!! sounds like you need to go inspect your own and find out why your attitude is so foul! wrong again miles. i am in management. i am not union. i actually do the internal invvestigations where i work. we have a union workforce and a discipline agreement. i do not find the discipline agreement at all difficult to work with. it simply guarentees the employess a fair process. i have no problem following that. it also means that we have to have a reason to discipline an employee and that the punishment has to fit the offense or if we want to move higher on the disipline chain we have to show that we are following the doctrine of progressive discipline. i have not found the union to be a problem. what they want is fair. they have not impeded my investigations. i do not see the gaurentee of due process and due cause as an obstacle to effective discipline in any way at all. .

From : theguy

on mon 20 feb 2006 064735 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote roy wrote roy wrote i also think in the past 30 years the unions that did run amok have been curtailed quite a bit. teachers union still exists. teachers are one place that a union is needed. or were they the union that was involved with your family g teachers unions create tenure which is horrible. it makes the school system keep lousy teachers. i agree that teachers are not paid enough. but what the teachers unions have done over the decades is create an education system that puts the needs of teachers way above that of the education of our kids. whats needed is to get rid of lousy teachers and pay the great ones so theyll stay teaching. the unions do nothing of the sort. honestly miles you need to get involved with your local school district. that is as untrue as anything that has been said here. as i said before that is a lie. it is management that keeps bad teachers. tenure is not an unfair concept. it has benefits for an effective work force too. contracts do not say that tenured teachers can not be disciplined. in fact tenure is not a discipline issue. show me a contract that says differently. you will not find one. tenure has no part in the discipline process with the one exception of probationary employees usually probation is 6 months to 18 months depending on the district as probationary employees can be fired without cause in most contracts. but that is not tenure. how in the world are you getting tenure wound up in discipline and getting rid of bad teachers .

From : roy

roy wrote miles please read what you are writing. i repeat. tenure is a bad thing. there is zero need for it and it does not benifit the education system. good teachers are kept and paid well poor teachers are canned regardless of how many years on the job. a teaching job should be just like any other job where there is no such thing as tenure. you think negotiation is possible on this issue bull. the union is too strong to allow it. here you are again the union. miles you are obsessed. there are two parties to any negotiations. doesnt the other party have any responsability for the outcome of the negotiations or what is agreed to it would seem that you want it all one way yours. tell me roy how would say my state here in az negotiate to end tenure for teachers you really think thats possible no way. the teachers union would never agree to it. you are obsessed with the notion that both sides are equally balanced in leverage against each other when negotiating. they are most certainly not. how is it that in these negotiations they continually retain tenure and not just in a few states but nationwide tell me roy how could a single city county or school district have the power to negotiate away tenure against a national union the balance is simply not there as you are obsessed into believing. miles i am convinced that neither you or i will ever change our thoughts about unions and the rights of workers. the thread has become pointless imho. time to move on now what union was it that was involved with your family smwia employee union and smacna corporate union that uses smwia workers. now tell me why does it matter to you which union it didnt. i was just wondering. is that the sheet metal workers intl. assoc. or the service employees roy .

From : theguy

on sun 19 feb 2006 184452 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote roy wrote i also think in the past 30 years the unions that did run amok have been curtailed quite a bit. teachers union still exists. now what the fuck does that mean they sure do. and it is a good fucking thing that they do. in the public sector it is unions alone that have kept our head above ground. .