American Workers Will Live Like Peasants Again US Auto makers
From : miles
Q: tbone wrote american workers will live like peasants again because of union busting by their own government. sad but true. for you its better that a union busts a company and they pack up and move elsewhere. good plan. .
Replies:
From : miles
tbone wrote 99% of the time it is not the union that busts up a company it is almost always either poor planning by the highly paid management or a change in the times. if thats the case then you have nothing to whine about when those companies move overseas. just changing times. trouble is the union doesnt seem to flex per those changing times...which does lead to companies being forced to move. .
From : miles
tbone wrote they can in some situations. oh yea it was always the unions never greedy corporate execs that made bad decisions. too funny tbone!! i say they can in some situations and you retort by saying always the unions. when is it ever the greedy unions huh oh ya you said 1% of the time. lol sure. they have hurt industries by subsidizing union contractors such that they can bid below cost to shove out anyone else. i dont even think that is legal but since you seem to think that it happens sp often it is legal tbone. unions write checks to member corporations so they can outbid the non-union contractors. its very legal and its happened to my families own businesses. backfired though. the union couldnt keep writing checks forever in order to win all jobs. your love affair with unions is a direct result of you having zero experience or knowledge from a corporate perspective of the damage unions do. .
From : miles
tbone wrote like i said before miles i dont see the management in many of these companies willing to make life changing cuts in their salaries and benefits to keep these companies in the usa. why is it always the corporations fault it works both ways. what you seem to forget is the main purpose a company is in business for. you seem to go the social extremes and wish that companies were all just non-profit social welfare providers. fact is a corporation is started to make money. if a union gets to powerfull and makes it difficult to compete in a global market then they move elsewhere. you can cry all you want whine about how bad they are but tough...theyre gone and what are you doing about it other than whine what are you willing to do to keep the companies here .
From : miles
budd cochran wrote i think i just figured it out miles. . . . on star trek a science fiction fantasy program no one works to make a profit / income they work because they want to. all your sustenance lodging and clothing comes from somewhere probably a governmental agency and cost nothing or from a replicator provided by the afore mentioned entity. and tom thinks thats the way it should be . . . . . yep that pretty much seems like his ideal situation. .
From : miles
theguy wrote i dont agreee with miles but i repect the guy. after all we are all just products of our experienes and it sounds like a couple of his family businesses had financial trouble that the unions somehow made worse. i have worked from both sides and therefore see both sides of the fence. most have not done so. when it is your own time and life invested into a company of your own then and only then can you understand the other side. otherwise workers think everyone in the corporate world above them is arrogant and greedy and dont deserve what they have. i know better than that. didnt have financial problems. the unions certainly did try to run us out using strong arm tactics but they failed. the little guy won and the non-union employess benifited from fighting back against the unions. .
From : miles
theguy wrote i also think the melodrama of saying that workers think that everyone in the corporate world above them is arrogant and greedy........... is a huge overstatement. just the opposite is true and i think that you know that. no i dont know that. i know too many people with tbones attitude towards corporations. however those workers have their own time and life invested into a company and want to protet their interests too. just the same as you. not the same at all. not even close. people who own their own business have far more at risk. theyve invested their life savings into the company and will use everything they have to keep it afloat in bad times. if the company folds they often fold with it. workers are just out of a job. owners are out far more. to say its all just the same is just wrong! it really is simply just the two parts each worrying about their own needs each believing that the other can not be trusted with themon thier own. that is true. i just hear from too many workers who have no comprehension of what its like to be on the other side. so they get together and form agreements contracts that try to reach a point where both sides needs are pretected. thats great but in reality each tries to do whatever it takes to muscle the other their way. they do what they need to find the leverage to do so. its not one big happy family quite often. without unions we would not be the country that we are and we would not enjoy the status that makes america america. unions are needed only in a few select markets where balance is skewed. in the vast majority of sectors normal market principals prevail providing a natural balance. if i want to keep a skilled worker then i have to pay them or theyll vote with their feet. companies compete for skilled workers. only in a few areas is this balance not present and thus unions needed. .
From : miles
tbone wrote where did i say it always was in all cases where the fault is poor planning it is. the workers do not run the company or make the big decisions now do they that is the job of the highly paid execs and for that matter the reason that they are so highly paid. the problem is that when the company runs into trouble due to poor planning they seldom take any responsibility for it. much easier to pass the buck on such made up terms as the global economy. often they run into trouble as a direct result of exhorbant labor costs caused by powerfull unions. look at the massive rise in health costs companies must pay out. unions use their power to resist absorbing their share of the rise in costs. its much easier to just say the owners are greedy and should pay. really miles i thought that the purpose of a corporation was to provide a service or product and make money doing it but your description shows clearly where your head is. huh a company makes a product or provides a service for one purpose. to make money. a company will change its product or service as the market dictates. why to make money. that is why a person starts a company. you really believe its just to make a product and the money is an incidental benifit of doing so too funny. not a damn thing if i cant make a living wage working there what would be the point the point that you and those like you fail to see is that if the businesses lay off everyone that may buy your product or service who is going to be left to buy it just in the usa or the rest of the world if a union chokes the life out of a company then how does that benifit the workers .
From : miles
theguy wrote really fwiw the world can only live well when there is balance. as far as unions they give balance to workers rights. they can in some situations. in others unions have gotten way to big and powerfull and destroyed otherwise good companies. they have hurt industries by subsidizing union contractors such that they can bid below cost to shove out anyone else. thats just plain wrong and is not benificial to society as a whole. .
From : miles
theguy wrote and that is where you are blind and why you will always fight with the unions. people who have bet there lives on the company their future their kids education their retirement etc. have just as much as you to lose. bull! they do not have just as much to lose. if they lose their job they still have any retirement accounts and everything else they own. if a company folds the owner is out everything they own. owners will dump everything they have to keep a company afloat. they will put their own house and any other assets on the line for collateral to bankroll the company. if needed they will pay out of their own pockets to make payroll pay bills etc. they have far more of their $s tied up in the company than the workers. there is simply no comparison in the amount invested and the amount at risk. you are blind! it may be on a different level but it is ertainly no less important and if you cant understand that then you will be a bad capitalist until you do. sure a job is important to an employee. its not about how important the job is as a comparison. its about how much each side has invested and how much of their own personal property is in direct risk. do employees put all their own assets on the line to keep the company afloat did the employees invest all of their money into the company to get it started and keep it running if you cant understand just how much more an owner has invested and has at risk then you will always be blind to just what an owner deals with. you are putting your needs above their your interests in front of theirs. they see that they will never respect or deal with you without knowing in the back of thier minds that you devalue them. people dont deal well with that at any level in any situation. you gotta try at least to understand it. look at life through their shoes for one. how many companies have you owned and invested your own life savings into your statements have pretty much told me you do not respect the time money risk and personal investment an owner has in a company. you gotta try at least to understand business from the owners side. .
From : miles
roy wrote miles id expect you to look at both sides of a issue. please read up on the demise of eastern airlines with a open mind. ill see if i can find a link tonight. sure thats true. there are poorly managed corporations. i have said repeatedly that unions are needed in some cases where a natural market balance is not present for whatever reasons. in the majority of work sectors unions are simply not needed and have a negative benifit to society as a whole. .
From : miles
theguy wrote on wed 15 feb 2006 175825 gmt tbone tbonenospam@nc.rr.com wrote really miles i thought that the purpose of a corporation was to provide a service or product and make money doing it but your description shows clearly where your head is. come on miles get your head out. making money is why corporations exist. that is the reason. it is not a bad reason. making money is why unions exist to a large degree too. we are a capitalist society and that is not a bad thing. money is not a dirty word. we are getting hung up on issues that are not really the issue. your reply is to tbone not me. i agree with you on your statement above. .
From : miles
tbone wrote more complete horseshit from you. i have no problem for people being rewarded for their efforts but thre is a point where it goes beyond a reward and into pure greed. that is very true. problem is you only see that greed from the corporate owner and not from a union worker. you dont seem to think that unions and their employees are very much greedy as well. .
From : miles
tbone wrote that is because in many cases they dont. they take what they want because they can nothing more and the ones underneath them are the ones that in many cases have to bust their rumps and give things up so they can. in many cases unions workers take what they want because they can. they are paid above market value and that is pure greed. how exactly did they benefit miles does your family pay union rates and supply the same level of health care as the union shops if not then only ones that benefited were the owners your family. they pay above the unions benifits which is exactly why they have continually voted down joining the union. it benifited the employees because the union lost. had the union won these people would have been out of a job. .
From : miles
tbone wrote complete bs again. your argument is at best only partially valid during the business startup. once the business returns your initial investment your argument holds no water. what utter nonsense tbone. through the life of a company the owner will pour everything they have into it during bad times. its not just for an initial startup period as you believe. if a company folds then the owner goes down with it most of the time. at least you see that both sides can be assholes not just the loabor side its a start. ive always said that. you just tend to ignore and blame the big bad corporation every time. oh wait you did make a statement that 1% of the time its not the corporations fault. too funny. unions are needed only in a few select markets where balance is skewed. lol perhaps you should crack a few history books. history here is a classic example of why you have the warped beliefs that you do. you live in the past. this is today tbone. in todays world unions are needed only in a few select markets where the natural supply/demand balance is not present. lol only if they have somewhere else to go but in a world of outsourcing that becomes less and less a problem. you need to do some research regarding outsourcing vs. insourcing. ill give you a clue. insourced jobs are many times that of outsourced. with the exception of the service industry there is no balance. bull. many white collar jobs are not union. why because they are generally not needed because of natural job market balance. companies struggle to find skilled workers and compete against each other to secure them. .
From : miles
roy wrote roy wrote i also think in the past 30 years the unions that did run amok have been curtailed quite a bit. teachers union still exists. teachers are one place that a union is needed. or were they the union that was involved with your family g teachers unions create tenure which is horrible. it makes the school system keep lousy teachers. i agree that teachers are not paid enough. but what the teachers unions have done over the decades is create an education system that puts the needs of teachers way above that of the education of our kids. whats needed is to get rid of lousy teachers and pay the great ones so theyll stay teaching. the unions do nothing of the sort. .
From : miles
theguy wrote wow that is very sad miles. you are destined with that fucked up attitude to lose. good luck. whats sad is that you dont realize what a company owner invests and has at risk to lose. no comprehension at all. thats why your attitude is fucked up to the point of seeing only one side. until you have your own firm and invest your life into it youll keep that fucked up attitude. .
From : miles
theguy wrote now what the fuck does that mean they sure do. and it is a good fucking thing that they do. in the public sector it is unions alone that have kept our head above ground. teachers unions are why we teachers have tenure. its why we have to keep lousy teachers rather than can their butts and put the money towards the great teachers and keep them so theyll stay teaching. the teachers unions have created a horrible condition where the teachers needs are put way above that of the students. the teachers unions do not benifit the education of our kids. .
From : miles
theguy wrote on sun 19 feb 2006 184703 -0700 miles nope@nopers.com wrote theguy wrote read again i was adding to what tbone said but then what does it matter. no you did not. you said come on miles and then explained that money is the reason corporations exist...exactly what i said in the first place. your reply was in disagreement with tbone not me! what the fuck does that have to do with the issue anyhow what the fuck crawled up your ass and died rofl!! sounds like you need to go inspect your own and find out why your attitude is so foul! .
From : miles
roy wrote miles today things are beginning to slide backwards with regard to benifits overtime pay safty the list goes on. the cost of those benifits to a corporation have skyrocketed. especially health care costs. do you realize just how much health insurance costs have risen that companies pay out in premiums along with that is huge liability insurance costs. fact is the cost of running a business has skyrocketed and not all those costs should be that of the owners only. are you of the belief that skilled workers are white collar huh i made a statement about white collar jobs only. for scientists engineers etc. companies are now struggling to find skilled workers for those jobs. it is very difficult to find them so the only way to attract them is through benifits. for most blue collar jobs the supply exceeds the demand skilled or not. please do not try to twist the conversation where it simply is not. .
From : miles
roy wrote miles please read what you are writing. i repeat. tenure is a bad thing. there is zero need for it and it does not benifit the education system. good teachers are kept and paid well poor teachers are canned regardless of how many years on the job. a teaching job should be just like any other job where there is no such thing as tenure. you think negotiation is possible on this issue bull. the union is too strong to allow it. here you are again the union. miles you are obsessed. there are two parties to any negotiations. doesnt the other party have any responsability for the outcome of the negotiations or what is agreed to it would seem that you want it all one way yours. tell me roy how would say my state here in az negotiate to end tenure for teachers you really think thats possible no way. the teachers union would never agree to it. you are obsessed with the notion that both sides are equally balanced in leverage against each other when negotiating. they are most certainly not. how is it that in these negotiations they continually retain tenure and not just in a few states but nationwide tell me roy how could a single city county or school district have the power to negotiate away tenure against a national union the balance is simply not there as you are obsessed into believing. now what union was it that was involved with your family smwia employee union and smacna corporate union that uses smwia workers. now tell me why does it matter to you which union .
From : miles
roy wrote these costs have been slid more and more to the employee. along with a much degraded health plan. you have no clue!! yes some costs have been passed onto employees. you are way off target if you think anywheres near even 50% of those costs have been passed on. the corporations generally have absorbed the major share of those costs. note hmos are the deal today. what happened to the comprehensive health plan oh it was negotiated away. guess ill blame the owners for that one. a few short years ago i could walk into any hospital or doctors office and be treated anywhere in the country and my medical plan was good. now i have to be refered by a pcp and jump through all sorts of hoops. also i may or may not be treated by the doctor i want because he is not in the network. bottom line health coverage has taken a nosedive. yes because of massive cost increases that have mostly been absorbed by corporations despite the lower coverage you talk about. do you really understand just how much premiums have gone up in the past 10 years any idea at all .
From : miles
roy wrote miles the same could be said about you. go back and read your posts throughout this thread you are in cement here. not true. i have worked both sides of the fence. i know what its like from both sides. you seem to have ignored my statements regarding unions being a good thing in some specific job sectors. they are needed when a natural balance is not present. the majority of job sectors are balanced by natural supply/demand. you seem to not understand that concept and you roy are the one in cement here. you think unions are always great because everything is negotiated in a big happy family balanced sorta way. .
From : miles
theguy wrote no teachers unions are why they have the little pay that they do. period. management is why we have teachers in plce that do not deserve to be there. the not one teachers contract that takes away management right to remove or discipline a teacher a cause. keep that in mind mile for cause. because management cant get its collective shit together to do that some bad techers stay in place. the excuse for piss poor management is not to remove tenure rights from teachers. it is not to create an atmosphere where management can fire whomevver they want.........you can not be serious about that. that opens up a real can of worms................. the fact is miles i am not aware of any union contract that takes away the right of management to discipline any worker..........they just are gaurenteed two things..........due process and due cause. two very american things i might add. by saying what you said above you can only be saying that workers dont have the right to due process and due cause. the only reason that you could possibly say that is that you believe that manageent is not capable of running any business..........because those are two very fundamental rights. how are teachers any different than any other employee at any other job there are laws in place preventing a company for firing someone without cause. a fired employee can go to court and get due process. tenure was not created for that purpose as you seem to believe. .
From : miles
theguy wrote wrong again miles. i am in management. i am not union. i actually do the internal invvestigations where i work. we have a union workforce and a discipline agreement. i do not find the discipline agreement at all difficult to work with. it simply guarentees the employess a fair process. state and federal laws already give a means for fair due process. union agreements do not give much that already isnt in place in other forms. .
From : miles
theguy wrote honestly miles you need to get involved with your local school district. that is as untrue as anything that has been said here. as i said before that is a lie. it is management that keeps bad teachers. tenure is not an unfair concept. so why should teachers be treated differently than any other job why do they need tenure yet pretty much nobody else in other jobs do tenure is a horrible concept that does not benifit our education system. it does nothing to provide the best work force possible. quite the opposite. sorry but you are wrong in your belief that tenure has zero effect on the ability for management to get rid of bad teachers. .
From : miles
roy wrote miles i am convinced that neither you or i will ever change our thoughts about unions and the rights of workers. the thread has become pointless imho. time to move on probably true. when you own your own company and have invested and risked everything you own into it then well talk more! it didnt. i was just wondering. is that the sheet metal workers intl. assoc. or the service employees sheet metal workers. company is commercial a/c contracting. .
From : miles
tbone wrote either you have the biggest family in the world or you are full of shit. every time i ask you to back something up you come up with this family crap yet never actually give a name. what is the name of the business and what union attacked them. since this should all be public record im not asking for anything private. rofl!! you try to tell me its illegal for unions to subsidize individual contractors so they can outbid non-union companies. you havent a clue at all to come up with that statement. its just your personal belief with zilch to support it and yet again you try to tell me you must be right if i dont name a company other than my families. sorry tbone youre wrong. it is legal and is done on a routine basis. prove your statement true. show me some law that says unions cant bankroll companies to outbid non-union companies. back your claim up. .
From : miles
roy wrote i also think in the past 30 years the unions that did run amok have been curtailed quite a bit. teachers union still exists. .
From : miles
theguy wrote read again i was adding to what tbone said but then what does it matter. no you did not. you said come on miles and then explained that money is the reason corporations exist...exactly what i said in the first place. your reply was in disagreement with tbone not me! .
From : miles
tbone wrote that would be everybodys ideal situation but human nature would never allow it to happen even if technology could. the concept of the government being everyones social provider for all their needs is not my ideal situation. so your statement is wrong. .