2000 Dodge 2500 transmission problems

From : dirtclod

Q: i noticed about two weeks ago that when the truck shifts to overdrive about 50 mph the rpms jump about 300 more rpm and it feels as if the transmission is slipping. is it time for a rebuild i have been reading this board and there is alot of talk about the torque converter. how can you tell if it the tc or the transmission .

Replies:

From : max dodge

first tell us what engine you have so well know which trans you have. second let us in on you mileage and maintenance as well as fluid level color and smell. next the shift into od means the tc unlocks briefly so the problem might be electronic and its worth looking for codes. last the clutches involved are the od in the od section and the front and rear in the main section. have you noticed slipping in any other shift -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author i noticed about two weeks ago that when the truck shifts to overdrive about 50 mph the rpms jump about 300 more rpm and it feels as if the transmission is slipping. is it time for a rebuild i have been reading this board and there is alot of talk about the torque converter. how can you tell if it the tc or the transmission .

From : geekboy

i noticed about two weeks ago that when the truck shifts to overdrive about 50 mph the rpms jump about 300 more rpm and it feels as if the transmission is slipping. is it time for a rebuild i have been reading this board and there is alot of talk about the torque converter. how can you tell if it the tc or the transmission does sound like rebuild. hope you have 2gs to spare unless you can climb underneath and pull it out to help save a lot of labor cost. i hear the tc from dtt diesel performancehelps a lot but its another grand for that. i got one on my truck and a massive trans cooler that is under the truck with a big fan that has a thermostat on it. heat kills the auto trans. mine never goes above 200 degrees even in stop n go traffic. quoted from dtt dtt product benefits a.. 30-40% more power transfer b.. 100 less heat c.. 1-2 mpg fuel economy improvement d.. unsurpassed torque multiplication and fluid coupling e.. increased transmission life *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : dirtclod

it has the ctd. 2500 with 4x4. it has 72000 miles and i dont know about trans. service. ive only had it a year. i had the fluid and filter changed. filter was dirty and fluid was not real bad but dirty. this didnt help the problem. the fluid didnt smell burnt. thanks. .

From : lorne

check your brake switch for wear before you do all that! if the brake switch comes on it is telling the computer that you have applied the brake pedal and will unlock the converter causing the symptom you have described. lorne i noticed about two weeks ago that when the truck shifts to overdrive about 50 mph the rpms jump about 300 more rpm and it feels as if the transmission is slipping. is it time for a rebuild i have been reading this board and there is alot of talk about the torque converter. how can you tell if it the tc or the transmission does sound like rebuild. hope you have 2gs to spare unless you can climb underneath and pull it out to help save a lot of labor cost. i hear the tc from dtt diesel performancehelps a lot but its another grand for that. i got one on my truck and a massive trans cooler that is under the truck with a big fan that has a thermostat on it. heat kills the auto trans. mine never goes above 200 degrees even in stop n go traffic. quoted from dtt dtt product benefits a.. 30-40% more power transfer b.. 100 less heat c.. 1-2 mpg fuel economy improvement d.. unsurpassed torque multiplication and fluid coupling e.. increased transmission life *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : marsh monster

====== ====== dirtclod wrote it has the ctd. 2500 with 4x4. it has 72000 miles and i dont know about trans. service. ive only had it a year. i had the fluid and filter changed. filter was dirty and fluid was not real bad but dirty. this didnt help the problem. the fluid didnt smell burnt. thanks. ======= ======= diagnose the symptom through the pcm first checking the data parameters and for codes. or....... guess........ a simple google will help you with the guessing. marsh monster tranny tech doesnt guess .

From : marsh monster

======= ======= roy wrote before dirtclod gets carried away with a major repair he might want to check for codes the tps the brakelight switch. roy ======= ======= what he said ditto marshmonster sips his coffee .

From : marsh monster

====== ====== john kunkel wrote if the od switch is in the on position the converter wont lock until after the 3-4 upshift. the converter clutch operation can be checked by placing the od control switch in the off position the converter lockup will then occur shortly after the 2-3 upshift. ====== ====== true fact not fiction marshmonster .

From : roy

i noticed about two weeks ago that when the truck shifts to overdrive about 50 mph the rpms jump about 300 more rpm and it feels as if the transmission is slipping. is it time for a rebuild i have been reading this board and there is alot of talk about the torque converter. how can you tell if it the tc or the transmission does sound like rebuild. hope you have 2gs to spare unless you can climb underneath and pull it out to help save a lot of labor cost. boy they must love seeing you pull in. tps gone give him a $2k transmission. before dirtclod gets carried away with a major repair he might want to check for codes the tps the brakelight switch. roy .

From : john kunkel

next the shift into od means the tc unlocks briefly so the problem might be electronic and its worth looking for codes. not likely if the od switch is in the on position the converter wont lock until after the 3-4 upshift. the converter clutch operation can be checked by placing the od control switch in the off position the converter lockup will then occur shortly after the 2-3 upshift. .

From : max dodge

filter was dirty and fluid was not real bad but dirty. it wont help the problem to change fluid since the detergents in the new atf would effectively clean out any dirt that had helped seals work. if the fluid was dirty its not likely good . any debris in the pan -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author it has the ctd. 2500 with 4x4. it has 72000 miles and i dont know about trans. service. ive only had it a year. i had the fluid and filter changed. this didnt help the problem. the fluid didnt smell burnt. thanks. .

From : max dodge

next the shift into od means the tc unlocks briefly so the problem might be electronic and its worth looking for codes. not likely if the od switch is in the on position the converter wont lock until after the 3-4 upshift. thats incorrect as my 2000 always locks in third before the shift to od. the converter clutch operation can be checked by placing the od control switch in the off position the converter lockup will then occur shortly after the 2-3 upshift. it could be tested by driving the truck and observing closely as well. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author next the shift into od means the tc unlocks briefly so the problem might be electronic and its worth looking for codes. not likely if the od switch is in the on position the converter wont lock until after the 3-4 upshift. the converter clutch operation can be checked by placing the od control switch in the off position the converter lockup will then occur shortly after the 2-3 upshift. .

From : max dodge

check your brake switch for wear before you do all that! if the brake switch comes on it is telling the computer that you have applied the brake pedal and will unlock the converter causing the symptom you have described. excellent advice. this may or may not be a trouble code depending on if its a complete failure or an intermittant fault. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author check your brake switch for wear before you do all that! if the brake switch comes on it is telling the computer that you have applied the brake pedal and will unlock the converter causing the symptom you have described. lorne i noticed about two weeks ago that when the truck shifts to overdrive about 50 mph the rpms jump about 300 more rpm and it feels as if the transmission is slipping. is it time for a rebuild i have been reading this board and there is alot of talk about the torque converter. how can you tell if it the tc or the transmission does sound like rebuild. hope you have 2gs to spare unless you can climb underneath and pull it out to help save a lot of labor cost. i hear the tc from dtt diesel performancehelps a lot but its another grand for that. i got one on my truck and a massive trans cooler that is under the truck with a big fan that has a thermostat on it. heat kills the auto trans. mine never goes above 200 degrees even in stop n go traffic. quoted from dtt dtt product benefits a.. 30-40% more power transfer b.. 100 less heat c.. 1-2 mpg fuel economy improvement d.. unsurpassed torque multiplication and fluid coupling e.. increased transmission life *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : max dodge

true fact not fiction false. the fsm and my truck disagree with both kunkle and the marsh mellow. tc lockup can and does occur in either 3rd or 4th gears. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author ====== ====== john kunkel wrote if the od switch is in the on position the converter wont lock until after the 3-4 upshift. the converter clutch operation can be checked by placing the od control switch in the off position the converter lockup will then occur shortly after the 2-3 upshift. ====== ====== true fact not fiction marshmonster .

From : christopher thompson

check your brake switch for wear before you do all that! if the brake switch comes on it is telling the computer that you have applied the brake pedal and will unlock the converter causing the symptom you have described. excellent advice. this may or may not be a trouble code depending on if its a complete failure or an intermittant fault. would that not also cause the cruise to intermit or inop -- -chris 05 ctd 06 liberty crd -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author check your brake switch for wear before you do all that! if the brake switch comes on it is telling the computer that you have applied the brake pedal and will unlock the converter causing the symptom you have described. lorne i noticed about two weeks ago that when the truck shifts to overdrive about 50 mph the rpms jump about 300 more rpm and it feels as if the transmission is slipping. is it time for a rebuild i have been reading this board and there is alot of talk about the torque converter. how can you tell if it the tc or the transmission does sound like rebuild. hope you have 2gs to spare unless you can climb underneath and pull it out to help save a lot of labor cost. i hear the tc from dtt diesel performancehelps a lot but its another grand for that. i got one on my truck and a massive trans cooler that is under the truck with a big fan that has a thermostat on it. heat kills the auto trans. mine never goes above 200 degrees even in stop n go traffic. quoted from dtt dtt product benefits a.. 30-40% more power transfer b.. 100 less heat c.. 1-2 mpg fuel economy improvement d.. unsurpassed torque multiplication and fluid coupling e.. increased transmission life *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : lorne

yes!! i changed the break switch and the problems went away! lorne check your brake switch for wear before you do all that! if the brake switch comes on it is telling the computer that you have applied the brake pedal and will unlock the converter causing the symptom you have described. excellent advice. this may or may not be a trouble code depending on if its a complete failure or an intermittant fault. would that not also cause the cruise to intermit or inop -- -chris 05 ctd 06 liberty crd -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author check your brake switch for wear before you do all that! if the brake switch comes on it is telling the computer that you have applied the brake pedal and will unlock the converter causing the symptom you have described. lorne i noticed about two weeks ago that when the truck shifts to overdrive about 50 mph the rpms jump about 300 more rpm and it feels as if the transmission is slipping. is it time for a rebuild i have been reading this board and there is alot of talk about the torque converter. how can you tell if it the tc or the transmission does sound like rebuild. hope you have 2gs to spare unless you can climb underneath and pull it out to help save a lot of labor cost. i hear the tc from dtt diesel performancehelps a lot but its another grand for that. i got one on my truck and a massive trans cooler that is under the truck with a big fan that has a thermostat on it. heat kills the auto trans. mine never goes above 200 degrees even in stop n go traffic. quoted from dtt dtt product benefits a.. 30-40% more power transfer b.. 100 less heat c.. 1-2 mpg fuel economy improvement d.. unsurpassed torque multiplication and fluid coupling e.. increased transmission life *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : max dodge

would that not also cause the cruise to intermit or inop yup from what ive seen and been told it could very well. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author check your brake switch for wear before you do all that! if the brake switch comes on it is telling the computer that you have applied the brake pedal and will unlock the converter causing the symptom you have described. excellent advice. this may or may not be a trouble code depending on if its a complete failure or an intermittant fault. would that not also cause the cruise to intermit or inop -- -chris 05 ctd 06 liberty crd -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author check your brake switch for wear before you do all that! if the brake switch comes on it is telling the computer that you have applied the brake pedal and will unlock the converter causing the symptom you have described. lorne i noticed about two weeks ago that when the truck shifts to overdrive about 50 mph the rpms jump about 300 more rpm and it feels as if the transmission is slipping. is it time for a rebuild i have been reading this board and there is alot of talk about the torque converter. how can you tell if it the tc or the transmission does sound like rebuild. hope you have 2gs to spare unless you can climb underneath and pull it out to help save a lot of labor cost. i hear the tc from dtt diesel performancehelps a lot but its another grand for that. i got one on my truck and a massive trans cooler that is under the truck with a big fan that has a thermostat on it. heat kills the auto trans. mine never goes above 200 degrees even in stop n go traffic. quoted from dtt dtt product benefits a.. 30-40% more power transfer b.. 100 less heat c.. 1-2 mpg fuel economy improvement d.. unsurpassed torque multiplication and fluid coupling e.. increased transmission life *** posted via a free usenet account from http//www.tera.com *** .

From : john kunkel

false. the fsm and my truck disagree with both kunkle and the marsh mellow. thats funny my fsm specifically states if the overdrive control switch is in the normal on position the clutch will engage after the shift to fourth.........if the control switch is in the off position the clutch will engage after the shift to third gear..... if your fsm states differently quote here and give a page reference. tc lockup can and does occur in either 3rd or 4th gears. never said otherwise the sequence in which the the lockup occurs depends on the control swotch position. btw what is your source for the claim that the shift into od means the tc unlocks briefly is this a continuation of your perverted major pressure drop theory ====== ====== john kunkel wrote if the od switch is in the on position the converter wont lock until after the 3-4 upshift. the converter clutch operation can be checked by placing the od control switch in the off position the converter lockup will then occur shortly after the 2-3 upshift. ====== ====== true fact not fiction marshmonster .

From : max dodge

you place too much emphasis on the mention of the sensor parameters and pcm these in no way eliminate the function of the od control switch; even if all of the pcm inputs say lockup the position of the control switch determines whether or not lockup will occur. this is clearly stated in the highlighted paragraph. since the input parameters are mentioned first they get priority. they do not eliminate the od switch function they are a parallel to it. on my truck the input parameters determine when cclu occurs not the od switch. i also understand that it is clearly stated in the highlighted paragraph. sadly you have an inability to accept that 1 othe information contradicts that line and that info is in the same paragraph and 2 my truck contradicts that line and does so without any problems or trouble codes and continues to do so after 7 years of flawless transmission performance. the fact that the description of the sensor/pcm functions precedes mention of the switch does not remotely imply that the sensor functions are seperate from or override the switch position. sadly you couldnt prove that if you tried. further the pcm is the only thing switching the tcc. so if it says engage the tcc does it. what the fsm says about it tells me that there are parallel control parameters input from sensors input from od switch and one is a manual override. you may have been taught that the od switch is the end all of control but my truck says otherwise. as yet there is nothing except your claim that says my truck is operating abnormally. no p codes no odd trans behavior no bucking and jerking nothing. except your whining that it cant possibly be the way it is. if the tcc lu was independent of the control switch there would be no mention of the switch position since the primary funcrtion of the control switch is to control the od function. id like to agree with you but obviously the switch is mentioned and my truck is busy laughing at your claims. so i cant agree with you. the simple fact that the fsm describes the function of the switch in relation to the tcc proves that the switch position is the determining factor in tcc lu. the simple fact that i have no p codes for a tcc failure tcc circuit failure tcc solenoid failure or tcc electrical failure indicates to me that there is no failure.... yet i have tcc lu in 3rd with od on. but contrary to what most would say youll claim to know it all and diagnose my truck that is over 2000 miles away from you far better than the pcm bolted to the body of the truck. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author regardless of your accusations and diversionary tactics the proof is right there for all to read; the wording is unambiguous and clearly proves that your rhetoric throughout this thread has not been supported by any credible evidence. except that the line immediately prior to your highlighted info shows that the cc is contolled by the pcm using several parameters that do not include the od switch. my truck confirms this as correct. all this despite your claims. again your interpretive skills are as lacking as your general knowledge. http//pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg you place too much emphasis on the mention of the sensor parameters and pcm these in no way eliminate the function of the od control switch; even if all of the pcm inputs say lockup the position of the control switch determines whether or not lockup will occur. this is clearly stated in the highlighted paragraph. the fact that the description of the sensor/pcm functions precedes mention of the switch does not remotely imply that the sensor functions are seperate from or override the switch position. if the tcc lu was independent of the control switch there would be no mention of the switch position since the primary funcrtion of the control switch is to control the od function. the simple fact that the fsm describes the function of the switch in relation to the tcc proves that the switch position is the determining factor in tcc lu. .

From : john kunkel

you place too much emphasis on the mention of the sensor parameters and pcm these in no way eliminate the function of the od control switch; even if all of the pcm inputs say lockup the position of the control switch determines whether or not lockup will occur. this is clearly stated in the highlighted paragraph. since the input parameters are mentioned first they get priority. they do not eliminate the od switch function they are a parallel to wrong all of the sensor outputs in the world mean nothing if the control switch ignores them. oxygen sensors produce an output even when theyre on the shelf in the parts department does that mean they are controlling a mixture on my truck the input parameters determine when cclu occurs not the od switch. i also understand that it is clearly stated in the highlighted paragraph. sadly you have an inability to accept that 1 othe information contradicts that line and that info is in the same paragraph no contradiction at all the enclosed paragraph clearly states that the control switch is the final determinung factor youre just too stupid to read simple english. http//pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg the fact that the description of the sensor/pcm functions precedes mention of the switch does not remotely imply that the sensor functions are seperate from or override the switch position. sadly you couldnt prove that if you tried. further the pcm is the only thing switching the tcc. so if it says engage the tcc does it. not according to the text in the fsm and i quote if the overdrive control switch is in the normal on position the clutch will engage after the shift to fourth gear..... what part of that sentence is ambiguous what the fsm says about it tells me that there are parallel control parameters input from sensors input from od switch and one is a manual override. you may have been taught that the od switch is the end all of control but my truck says otherwise. screw your truck its not about your truck its about your claim that the fsm supports your version of normal operation; it doesnt. im not surprised that the fsm tells you other than the actual facts misenterpreting the fsm is the story of your life. if the tcc lu was independent of the control switch there would be no mention of the switch position since the primary function of the control switch is to control the od function. id like to agree with you but obviously the switch is mentioned and my truck is busy laughing at your claims. so i cant agree with you. once again it aint about your truck. and yes the fact that the od control switch is mentioned in a description of tcc operation that you claim is always the same regardless of switch position is damning to your assertions. .

From : max dodge

wrong all of the sensor outputs in the world mean nothing if the control switch ignores them. oxygen sensors produce an output even when theyre on the shelf in the parts department does that mean they are controlling a mixture does the control switch ignore them nope. why because the pcm is what toggles the od and lu solenoids not the switch. take a look at the wiring diagrams if you dont believe me. the od switch is between the pcm and ground. since all the switch does is produce an input to the pcm i guess its the pcm that makes a choice on the od and lu solenoids. no contradiction at all the enclosed paragraph clearly states that the control switch is the final determinung factor youre just too stupid to read simple english. enclosed paragraph apparently didnt inform the pcm the wiring or the guys designing either of them. sadly you couldnt prove that if you tried. further the pcm is the only thing switching the tcc. so if it says engage the tcc does it. not according to the text in the fsm and i quote if the overdrive control switch is in the normal on position the clutch will engage after the shift to fourth gear..... what part of that sentence is ambiguous the part on page 8w-31-4 or page 8w-15-12 of the fsm which shows that the od switch doesnt electrically have anything to do with the od function except to notify the pcm of driver choice. thus if the pcm were programmed to do so it could pick a random interval from when you actuated the switch or it could ignore the input altogether. on page 8w-30-7 youll find that the transmission solenoid assembly cannot be actuated in any way unless the pcm does it. screw your truck its not about your truck its about your claim that the fsm supports your version of normal operation; it doesnt. john go unfuck yourself and look at the wiring diagrams its pretty clear. im not surprised that the fsm tells you other than the actual facts misenterpreting the fsm is the story of your life. except when i have it correct. which much to your chagrin i am. id like to agree with you but obviously the switch is mentioned and my truck is busy laughing at your claims. so i cant agree with you. once again it aint about your truck. and yes the fact that the od control switch is mentioned in a description of tcc operation that you claim is always the same regardless of switch position is damning to your assertions. well me and my damnned assertions will stand by what the wiring diagrams in the fsm as well as the paragraph you quoted incessently show to be true. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author you place too much emphasis on the mention of the sensor parameters and pcm these in no way eliminate the function of the od control switch; even if all of the pcm inputs say lockup the position of the control switch determines whether or not lockup will occur. this is clearly stated in the highlighted paragraph. since the input parameters are mentioned first they get priority. they do not eliminate the od switch function they are a parallel to wrong all of the sensor outputs in the world mean nothing if the control switch ignores them. oxygen sensors produce an output even when theyre on the shelf in the parts department does that mean they are controlling a mixture on my truck the input parameters determine when cclu occurs not the od switch. i also understand that it is clearly stated in the highlighted paragraph. sadly you have an inability to accept that 1 othe information contradicts that line and that info is in the same paragraph no contradiction at all the enclosed paragraph clearly states that the control switch is the final determinung factor youre just too stupid to read simple english. http//pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg the fact that the description of the sensor/pcm functions precedes mention of the switch does not remotely imply that the sensor functions are seperate from or override the switch position. sadly you couldnt prove that if you tried. further the pcm is the only thing switching the tcc. so if it says engage the tcc does it. not according to the text in the fsm and i quote if the overdrive control switch is in the normal on position the clutch will engage after the shift to fourth gear..... what part of that sentence is ambiguous what the fsm says about it tells me that there are parallel control parameters input from sensors input from od switch and one is a manual override. you may have been taught that the od switch is the end all of control but my truck says otherwise. screw your truck its not about your truck its about your claim that the fsm supports your version of normal operation; it doesnt. im not surprised that the fsm tells you other than the actual facts misenterpreting

From : max dodge

thats funny my fsm specifically states if the overdrive control switch is in the normal on position the clutch will engage after the shift to fourth.........if the control switch is in the off position the clutch will engage after the shift to third gear..... if your fsm states differently quote here and give a page reference. sec 21 pg. 319 first paragraph fifth sentence the converter clutch engages in third gear. pretty clear and is exactly what my truck does regardless of the position of the od on/off switch. i have cc lu at approx 30-40mph in 3rd gear depending on throttle position. cc lu is an electronic function and is thus controlled by the ecm not hydraulics. as such the cc locks up when the ecm dictates. 21-323 3rd paragraph continued on 21-324 converter clutch engagement in third or fourth gear range is by sensor inputs to the pcm coolant temp engine rpm mph throttle position and map none of which are the od on/off switch. this is in direct contradiction to the next line which states what you have stated that the od on/off is what dictates the cc lu event. given that the book confirms both of our statements but that my truck confirms my statement ill take reality over a contradictory statement in the fsm. if youd like to come ride in my truck and see for yourself let me know when youll be coming by. frankly i was as surprised as you will be when it first happened since i used to believe what you claim. however once i read the fsm it was clear that the pcm was free to do as it pleased based on electronic input not printed statements. furthermore one of the issues facing this trans was the unlock/lock phasing when shifting. also aftermarket companies have made electronic control to drop lu events to as low as 18mph; it is highly unlikely that od is engaged at that point. http//www.atsdieselperformance.com/atswebsite/productsdodge/commander.asp tc lockup can and does occur in either 3rd or 4th gears. never said otherwise the sequence in which the the lockup occurs depends on the control swotch position. no it depends on the pcm programming. btw what is your source for the claim that the shift into od means the tc unlocks briefly is this a continuation of your perverted major pressure drop theory try actually reading the technical bulletins and youll see exactly what im talking about. that or come take a ride and i assure you youll feel the tc unlock od kick in and tc lu re-occur. argue on if you wish i know what ive read i know what my truck does and i know it locks up the converter well under the 45mph necessary for od to kick in and without cancelling od on the shifter. i assume all other 2000 my cummins rams do the same unless i somehow got a pcm flash upgrade that no one else did. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author false. the fsm and my truck disagree with both kunkle and the marsh mellow. thats funny my fsm specifically states if the overdrive control switch is in the normal on position the clutch will engage after the shift to fourth.........if the control switch is in the off position the clutch will engage after the shift to third gear..... if your fsm states differently quote here and give a page reference. tc lockup can and does occur in either 3rd or 4th gears. never said otherwise the sequence in which the the lockup occurs depends on the control swotch position. btw what is your source for the claim that the shift into od means the tc unlocks briefly is this a continuation of your perverted major pressure drop theory ====== ====== john kunkel wrote if the od switch is in the on position the converter wont lock until after the 3-4 upshift. the converter clutch operation can be checked by placing the od control switch in the off position the converter lockup will then occur shortly after the 2-3 upshift. ====== ====== true fact not fiction marshmonster .

From : john kunkel

wrong all of the sensor outputs in the world mean nothing if the control switch ignores them. oxygen sensors produce an output even when theyre on the shelf in the parts department does that mean they are controlling a mixture does the control switch ignore them nope. why because the pcm is what toggles the od and lu solenoids not the switch. take a look at the wiring diagrams if you dont believe me. the od switch is between the pcm and ground. so what without knowing the internal makeup of the pcm you cant make that assumption its more likely that when the od switch is closed it provides a ground for a circuit that controls the clutch lockup sequence as is clearly stated in the enclosed fsm quote. http//pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg since all the switch does is produce an input to the pcm i guess its the pcm that makes a choice on the od and lu solenoids. an assumption that is clearly contradicted in the fsm. no contradiction at all the enclosed paragraph clearly states that the control switch is the final determinung factor youre just too stupid to read simple english. enclosed paragraph apparently didnt inform the pcm the wiring or the guys designing either of them. does the pcm control circuits when the ignition switch is in the off position does the pcm control the speed control when the main switch is off according to your logic the pcm is a totally independent device that ignores everything but sensor inputs. sadly you couldnt prove that if you tried. further the pcm is the only thing switching the tcc. so if it says engage the tcc does it. not according to the text in the fsm and i quote if the overdrive control switch is in the normal on position the clutch will engage after the shift to fourth gear..... what part of that sentence is ambiguous the part on page 8w-31-4 or page 8w-15-12 of the fsm which shows that the od switch doesnt electrically have anything to do with the od function except to notify the pcm of driver choice. thus if the pcm were programmed to do so it could pick a random interval from when you actuated the switch or it could ignore the input altogether. on page 8w-30-7 youll find that the transmission solenoid assembly cannot be actuated in any way unless the pcm does it. another false assumption without a schematic of the pcm you cant know how the od switch interacts with the electronic internals but the text in the description of operation clearly describes the function of the switch in very clear plain english. screw your truck its not about your truck its about your claim that the fsm supports your version of normal operation; it doesnt. john go unfuck yourself and look at the wiring diagrams its pretty clear. i have looked at the schematics and all thats clear is what wire is connected to what terminal the claimed internal workings of the pcm are a product of your imagination. im not surprised that the fsm tells you other than the actual facts misenterpreting the fsm is the story of your life. except when i have it correct. which much to your chagrin i am. i am awaiting the day when you have it correct but i doubt ill live that long. at some point in elementary school we all learned that what separates humans from the lower animals is the ability to communicate by language both verbal and written. it seems that some humans cant read a simple sentence and will expend hundreds of additional sentences trying to pervert the meaning of the original. .

From : max dodge

so what without knowing the internal makeup of the pcm you cant make that assumption its more likely that when the od switch is closed it provides a ground for a circuit that controls the clutch lockup sequence as is clearly stated in the enclosed fsm quote. http//pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg ya arent getting this are you all the statements in the world dont mean squat. the wiring does. the solenoids are controlled by the pcm. nothing else just the pcm. the switch on the shift lever is simply an input nothing more nothing less. i am sure that the pcm can be flashed to do whatever the programmer wants it to do with the solenoids given any parameters the programmer sets. since all the switch does is produce an input to the pcm i guess its the pcm that makes a choice on the od and lu solenoids. an assumption that is clearly contradicted in the fsm. nope. follow the wires. does the pcm control circuits when the ignition switch is in the off position does the pcm control the speed control when the main switch is off according to your logic the pcm is a totally independent device that ignores everything but sensor inputs. yup that and power availablility are the only things the pcm cares about. well i suppose you could change its mode of operation by setting it on fire or hitting it with a hammer or flooding it.... but short of that yup the pcm only does what its inputs tell it to do based on programmed parameters. another false assumption without a schematic of the pcm you cant know how the od switch interacts with the electronic internals but the text in the description of operation clearly describes the function of the switch in very clear plain english. which would mean that you are assuming that the pcm allows the switch a clear path to the solenoids in order to switch them. if this were true why wouldnt the switch go directly to the solenoid face it john you are grasping at straws. i have looked at the schematics and all thats clear is what wire is connected to what terminal the claimed internal workings of the pcm are a product of your imagination. no they are the product of chrysler engineers imagination. apparently they imagined that the solenoid be controlled by the pcm not the driver. i am awaiting the day when you have it correct but i doubt ill live that long. have you been looking at marsh monsters findings at all id say you have a choice shut up and save face keep talking and look silly or keel over so you wont live to see the day when i have something right. or you could simply pull the tbone defense when faced with facts deny deny deny! oh wait... you already do that. at some point in elementary school we all learned that what separates humans from the lower animals is the ability to communicate by language both verbal and written. it seems that some humans cant read a simple sentence and will expend hundreds of additional sentences trying to pervert the meaning of the original. agreed now perhaps since youve identified the problem you could figure out how to stop being the problem. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author wrong all of the sensor outputs in the world mean nothing if the control switch ignores them. oxygen sensors produce an output even when theyre on the shelf in the parts department does that mean they are controlling a mixture does the control switch ignore them nope. why because the pcm is what toggles the od and lu solenoids not the switch. take a look at the wiring diagrams if you dont believe me. the od switch is between the pcm and ground. so what without knowing the internal makeup of the pcm you cant make that assumption its more likely that when the od switch is closed it provides a ground for a circuit that controls the clutch lockup sequence as is clearly stated in the enclosed fsm quote. http//pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg since all the switch does is produce an input to the pcm i guess its the pcm that makes a choice on the od and lu solenoids. an assumption that is clearly contradicted in the fsm. no contradiction at all the enclosed paragraph clearly states that the control switch is the final determinung factor youre just too stupid to read simple english. enclosed paragraph apparently didnt inform the pcm the wiring or the guys designing either of them. does the pcm control circuits when the ignition switch is in the off position does the pcm control the speed control when the main switch is off according to your logic the pcm is a totally independent device that ignores everything but sensor inputs. sadly you couldnt prove that if you tried. further the pcm is the only thing switching the tcc. so if it says engage the tcc does it. not according to the text in the fsm and

From : john kunkel

so what without knowing the internal makeup of the pcm you cant make that assumption its more likely that when the od switch is closed it provides a ground for a circuit that controls the clutch lockup sequence as is clearly stated in the enclosed fsm quote. http//pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg ya arent getting this are you all the statements in the world dont mean squat. the wiring does. once again all the wiring shows is what what wire attaches to what the wiring cant be used to prove the final operation. since all the switch does is produce an input to the pcm i guess its the pcm that makes a choice on the od and lu solenoids. never said otherwise but the pcm is configured by the position of the od switch as is clearly explained in the fsm just as it is powered by the ignition switch. does the pcm control circuits when the ignition switch is in the off position does the pcm control the speed control when the main switch is off according to your logic the pcm is a totally independent device that ignores everything but sensor inputs. yup that and power availablility are the only things the pcm cares about. well i suppose you could change its mode of operation by setting it on fire or hitting it with a hammer or flooding it.... but short of that yup the pcm only does what its inputs tell it to do based on programmed parameters. yup and the choice of parameters is dictated by the od switch position as clearly explained in the fsm. another false assumption without a schematic of the pcm you cant know how the od switch interacts with the electronic internals but the text in the description of operation clearly describes the function of the switch in very clear plain english. which would mean that you are assuming that the pcm allows the switch a clear path to the solenoids in order to switch them. if this were true why wouldnt the switch go directly to the solenoid i have no idea where you got that notion i have never even remotely suggested that the pcm allows the switch a clear path to the solenoids another of your typical distortions. what i did say and this is a direct quote its more likely that when the od switch is closed it provides a ground for a circuit that controls the clutch lockup sequence as is clearly stated in the enclosed fsm quote. http//pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg face it john you are grasping at straws. uh uh im trying to clear a path through your typical distortions to the truth which lies in one simple paragraph in the fsm. i have looked at the schematics and all thats clear is what wire is connected to what terminal the claimed internal workings of the pcm are a product of your imagination. no they are the product of chrysler engineers imagination. apparently they imagined that the solenoid be controlled by the pcm not the driver. thats the point of conjecture the fsm clearly states that the sequence of tcc lu is in total control of the driver via the od control switch. i am awaiting the day when you have it correct but i doubt ill live that long. have you been looking at marsh monsters findings at all id say you have a choice shut up and save face keep talking and look silly or keel over so you wont live to see the day when i have something right. i see nothing in his offering that supports one word of your assertions. .

From : max dodge

once again all the wiring shows is what what wire attaches to what the wiring cant be used to prove the final operation. nor can the fsm since it doesnt have any direct connection to the pcm or the solenoid. funny how that works. never said otherwise but the pcm is configured by the position of the od switch as is clearly explained in the fsm just as it is powered by the ignition switch. 1 the lines you highlighted say nothing of the sort. there is nothing in the fsm which says cclu cannot occur in 3rd gear with the od switch in the on position. 2 the fact that my truck not only does what you claim cannot be done but does it with inputs such as throttle position speed and rpm and does it without showing a trouble code is enough evidence to say that 3rd gear cclu occurs when the pcm determines not the od switch. despite all your claims my truck works flawlessly without trouble codes and does what you say cannot happen. yup that and power availablility are the only things the pcm cares about. well i suppose you could change its mode of operation by setting it on fire or hitting it with a hammer or flooding it.... but short of that yup the pcm only does what its inputs tell it to do based on programmed parameters. yup and the choice of parameters is dictated by the od switch position as clearly explained in the fsm. and sadly the one not getting it is you. no where does it say that od on locks out cclu in 3rd gear. fsm page 21-353 section note; pcm inputs overdrive/override switch fsm page 21-356 section overdrive off switch; operation; the switch is a momentary contact device that signals the pcm to toggle current status of the overdrive function. take note that this is an input not a manual toggle like you seem to believe. fsm page 21-323 section torque converter clutch tcc second paragraph; converter clutch engagement in third and fourth gear range is controlled by sensor inputs to the powertrain control module. take note that the pcm relies on inputs not manual switches. take further note that nowhere in that section does the fsm say tcc will not engage in third gear while od switch is on. fsm page 21-340 section switch valve; when the transmission is in drive second just before tcc application occurs fig 42...... second paragraph; once the tcc control valve has moved to the left fig 43 line pressure is directed to the tip of the switch valve forcing the valve to the right. the switch valve now vents oil from the front of the piston in the torque converter and supplies line pressure to the rear apply side of the torque converter piston. seems pretty clear that the pcm is not the only control over the cclu function. thus my statement that the pcm was a parallel control system. since it is well known that cclu function is available hydraulically in second gear not only because the fsm says so but because many aftermarket companies have taken advantage of it it follows without doubt that the cclu function is available in 3rd gear to either the pcm or the hydraulic control of the transmission. since both are available and have been exploited by the aftermarket it hardly seems like a stretch for the factory engineers to make the function available to the pcm while in 3rd gear od on. i have no idea where you got that notion i have never even remotely suggested that the pcm allows the switch a clear path to the solenoids another of your typical distortions. what i did say and this is a direct quote its more likely that when the od switch is closed it provides a ground for a circuit that controls the clutch lockup sequence as is clearly stated in the enclosed fsm quote. terrific john then where does the pcm get a ground when the od switch is not closed and why cant that ground be used regardless it simply shows that you are once again assuming you know how the pcm works by interpreting the words in the fsm. we both know that the pcm can be programmed to the whim of the programmer and thus the cclu function will occur whenever that program dictates that it should. uh uh im trying to clear a path through your typical distortions to the truth which lies in one simple paragraph in the fsm. sadly both the hydraulic and electrical schematics disagree as do other sections of the fsm. if youd like to use only that paragraph from the fsm perhaps the best thing to do with the rest of the fsm would be to sell it on ebay and stick to your .jpg image. thats the point of conjecture the fsm clearly states that the sequence of tcc lu is in total control of the driver via the od control switch. sadly it states no such thing. have you been looking at marsh monsters findings at all id say you have a choice shut up and save face keep talking and look silly or keel over so you wont live to see the day when i have something right. i see nothing in his offering that supports one word of your assertions. try readin

From : john kunkel

once again all the wiring shows is what what wire attaches to what the wiring cant be used to prove the final operation. nor can the fsm since it doesnt have any direct connection to the pcm or the solenoid. funny how that works. the fsm is the ultimate proof in the form of a clearly worded description of normal operation. http//pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg never said otherwise but the pcm is configured by the position of the od switch as is clearly explained in the fsm just as it is powered by the ignition switch. 1 the lines you highlighted say nothing of the sort. there is nothing in the fsm which says cclu cannot occur in 3rd gear with the od switch in the on position. nothing says it can. 2 the fact that my truck not only does what you claim cannot be done once again it isnt about your truck its about your claim that the fsm supports your trucks mode of operation which it clearly doesnt; it clearly contradicts your claims. yup and the choice of parameters is dictated by the od switch position as clearly explained in the fsm. and sadly the one not getting it is you. no where does it say that od on locks out cclu in 3rd gear. if you want to play specifics where in the fsm does it specifically say the tcc can engage in 3rd with the od switch in the on position what it clearly says is emphasized by the word normal with the od controm switch in the normal on position the tcc will engage after the shift to fourth. with the switch in the other than normal off position it can engage in 3rd. if your unit operates differently it is not in accordance with the fsm and therefore the fsm does not support your claims. as an aside it seems that all of your units operate out of the norm your infamous maxflite has the front pump in the rear line pressure drops to zero at each shift and it falls out of gear at the shift to ease the strain on the gears. fsm page 21-353 section note; pcm inputs overdrive/override switch fsm page 21-356 section overdrive off switch; operation; the switch is a momentary contact device that signals the pcm to toggle current status of the overdrive function. take note that this is an input not a manual toggle like you seem to believe. another distortion i never said anything that remotely resembles that. the momentary contact to ground merely configures a control circuit in the pcm as is clearly described in the fsm. fsm page 21-323 section torque converter clutch tcc second paragraph; converter clutch engagement in third and fourth gear range is controlled by sensor inputs to the powertrain control module. yep after the od control switch commands the sequence of operation as is clearly stated in the enclosed paragraph. http//pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg take note that the pcm relies on inputs not manual switches. if the inputs are by way of a manual switch your statement contradicts itself. take further note that nowhere in that section does the fsm say tcc will not engage in third gear while od switch is on. and nowhere does it say the tcc will/can engage in third gear while the od switch is on. touche. as usual you challenge me for specific wording but are unable to supply same. since both are available and have been exploited by the aftermarket it hardly seems like a stretch for the factory engineers to make the function available to the pcm while in 3rd gear od on. tell the engineers to reword the fsm to match your version of operation. it hardly seems a stretch for factory engineers to include the od on 3rd gear tcc engagement in the description of operation it would take only a short sentence but they failed to include that info because it isnt intended to operate that way. what you cant grasp is the fact that the od switch is the ultimate control of the tcc the factory engineers wouldnt have gone to the bother of devoting a paragraph to it if it wasnt. not including one simple sentence to back your claim speaks volumes. i have no idea where you got that notion i have never even remotely suggested that the pcm allows the switch a clear path to the solenoids another of your typical distortions. what i did say and this is a direct quote its more likely that when the od switch is closed it provides a ground for a circuit that controls the clutch lockup sequence as is clearly stated in the enclosed fsm quote. terrific john then where does the pcm get a ground when the od switch is not closed and why cant that ground be used huh do you think the od control switch is the only ground source for the pcm look at the wiring diagrams that youre so fond of citing there are several joint ground connections and the pcm has dozens of connections to them. numerous internal control circuits in the pcm use the joint grounds. the od control switch su

From : max dodge

the fsm is the ultimate proof in the form of a clearly worded description of normal operation. http//pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg sorry john weve been over this. its not proof and im not going to accept it simply because you supplied a link to it again. 1 the lines you highlighted say nothing of the sort. there is nothing in the fsm which says cclu cannot occur in 3rd gear with the od switch in the on position. nothing says it can. except my truick and the parallel systems as described by the fsm aftermarket manufacturers and some experts that marsh says seem to agree with me. ive asked him to provide more info but as yet he has not. 2 the fact that my truck not only does what you claim cannot be done once again it isnt about your truck its about your claim that the fsm supports your trucks mode of operation which it clearly doesnt; it clearly contradicts your claims. sorry you are incorrect. please read all that i posted as proof that the systems are free to function outside what seems to be your limited understanding of them. and sadly the one not getting it is you. no where does it say that od on locks out cclu in 3rd gear. if you want to play specifics where in the fsm does it specifically say the tcc can engage in 3rd with the od switch in the on position i posted that information. you the self proclaimed hydraulics expert on these transmissions should know that the trans can engage cclu in second gear as that is what feeds the circuits to engage lu. the fsm says so and so do the aftermarket guys. what it clearly says is emphasized by the word normal with the od controm switch in the normal on position the tcc will engage after the shift to fourth. with the switch in the other than normal off position it can engage in 3rd. if your unit operates differently it is not in accordance with the fsm and therefore the fsm does not support your claims. sorry john i refer you to previously posted info which you seem to want to disregard. as an aside it seems that all of your units operate out of the norm your infamous maxflite has the front pump in the rear line pressure drops to zero at each shift and it falls out of gear at the shift to ease the strain on the gears. ah yes the i dont have facts ill use personal attack and insult to try and distract from the facts of my opponent method. nice try. fsm page 21-353 section note; pcm inputs overdrive/override switch fsm page 21-356 section overdrive off switch; operation; the switch is a momentary contact device that signals the pcm to toggle current status of the overdrive function. take note that this is an input not a manual toggle like you seem to believe. another distortion i never said anything that remotely resembles that. the momentary contact to ground merely configures a control circuit in the pcm as is clearly described in the fsm. correct but you keep saying it supplies a ground for use by the pcm. i keep reminding you its merely an input that gives the pcm a parameter chosen by the operator. no distortion john simply statement of fact and now you seem to agree which is no real surprise. fsm page 21-323 section torque converter clutch tcc second paragraph; converter clutch engagement in third and fourth gear range is controlled by sensor inputs to the powertrain control module. yep after the od control switch commands the sequence of operation as is clearly stated in the enclosed paragraph. http//pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg sorry john but its not clear and i posed that problem to you over a week ago. i have further shown why its not clear by posting more information. if you choose to disregard it thats fine. but by disregarding facts as presented by the fsm you show the fallability of your position. take note that the pcm relies on inputs not manual switches. if the inputs are by way of a manual switch your statement contradicts itself. as you and i stated above the od on/off switch is not a manual switch but a configuration of the pcm parameters. take further note that nowhere in that section does the fsm say tcc will not engage in third gear while od switch is on. and nowhere does it say the tcc will/can engage in third gear while the od switch is on. touche. wrong. i quoted the text that proves that the tcc is fed by second gear and thus could be activated in second gear if the programming in the pcm called for it. as usual you challenge me for specific wording but are unable to supply same. i did supply same you have chosen to disregard it. since both are available and have been exploited by the aftermarket it hardly seems like a stretch for the factory engineers to make the function available to the pcm while in 3rd gear od on. tell the engineers to reword the fsm to match your version of operation. it hardly seems a stretch for factory engineers to include the od on 3rd

From : john kunkel

the fsm is the ultimate proof in the form of a clearly worded description of normal operation. http//pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg sorry john weve been over this. its not proof and im not going to accept it simply because you supplied a link to it again. its all the prrof that needed for anyone who can read a simple clear description of operation with no ambiguities. once again it isnt about your truck its about your claim that the fsm supports your trucks mode of operation which it clearly doesnt; it clearly contradicts your claims. sorry you are incorrect. please read all that i posted as proof that the systems are free to function outside what seems to be your limited understanding of them. what you have posted is a jumble of schizophrenic thoughts intended to divert attention from the simple statement of fact in the fsm. and sadly the one not getting it is you. no where does it say that od on locks out cclu in 3rd gear. if you want to play specifics where in the fsm does it specifically say the tcc can engage in 3rd with the od switch in the on position i posted that information. you the self proclaimed hydraulics expert on these transmissions should know that the trans can engage cclu in second gear as that is what feeds the circuits to engage lu. the fsm says so and so do the aftermarket guys. youre talking abnormal operation typical diversion the argument is about normal operation. 2nd gear is also the fluid source for od but the engagement of the od in 2nd gear would also be an abnormal condition. what it clearly says is emphasized by the word normal with the od controm switch in the normal on position the tcc will engage after the shift to fourth. with the switch in the other than normal off position it can engage in 3rd. if your unit operates differently it is not in accordance with the fsm and therefore the fsm does not support your claims. sorry john i refer you to previously posted info which you seem to want to disregard. your previously posted info is trash and repeatedly referring to it is referring to trash. as an aside it seems that all of your units operate out of the norm your infamous maxflite has the front pump in the rear line pressure drops to zero at each shift and it falls out of gear at the shift to ease the strain on the gears. ah yes the i dont have facts ill use personal attack and insult to try and distract from the facts of my opponent method. nice try. you wouldnt know a fact if it bit you on the ass. yes insult intended. fsm page 21-353 section note; pcm inputs overdrive/override switch fsm page 21-356 section overdrive off switch; operation; the switch is a momentary contact device that signals the pcm to toggle current status of the overdrive function. take note that this is an input not a manual toggle like you seem to believe. another distortion i never said anything that remotely resembles that. the momentary contact to ground merely configures a control circuit in the pcm as is clearly described in the fsm. correct but you keep saying it supplies a ground for use by the pcm. i keep reminding you its merely an input that gives the pcm a parameter chosen by the operator. no distortion john simply statement of fact and now you seem to agree which is no real surprise. word games supplies ground and merely an input are the same fucking thing fsm page 21-323 section torque converter clutch tcc second paragraph; converter clutch engagement in third and fourth gear range is controlled by sensor inputs to the powertrain control module. yep after the od control switch commands the sequence of operation as is clearly stated in the enclosed paragraph. http//pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg sorry john but its not clear and i posed that problem to you over a week ago. i have further shown why its not clear by posting more information. if you choose to disregard it thats fine. but by disregarding facts as presented by the fsm you show the fallability of your position. your postings are a jumble of contradictory info that satisfies nobody but you. take note that the pcm relies on inputs not manual switches. if the inputs are by way of a manual switch your statement contradicts itself. as you and i stated above the od on/off switch is not a manual switch but a configuration of the pcm parameters. when you push the button two contacts meet; how much more manual can it get take further note that nowhere in that section does the fsm say tcc will not engage in third gear while od switch is on. and nowhere does it say the tcc will/can engage in third gear while the od switch is on. touche. wrong. i quoted the text that proves that the tcc is fed by second gear and thus could be activated in second gear if the programming in the pcm called for it. you cou

From : max dodge

its all the prrof that needed for anyone who can read a simple clear description of operation with no ambiguities. except for those of us who read more than one paragraph. then we find out that cclu is available in 2nd 3rd and 4th gear hydraulically. we also find out that the pcm has adaptable programming and that the pcm can be programmed to perform cclu anytime in 234 gears. we also know that the od on/off switch is an input because its a momentary ground. since its an input signal to the pcmsomething the fsm is pretty clear about if you read my references and not a positive switch we also know that the pcm can override all or part of the input from that switch. you on the other hand seem to disregard anything but the small paragraph you cling to as the only clear part of the fsm. what you have posted is a jumble of schizophrenic thoughts intended to divert attention from the simple statement of fact in the fsm. again this is your means of diverting attention from the fact that you still havent found any proof that im wrong. i posted that information. you the self proclaimed hydraulics expert on these transmissions should know that the trans can engage cclu in second gear as that is what feeds the circuits to engage lu. the fsm says so and so do the aftermarket guys. youre talking abnormal operation typical diversion the argument is about normal operation. 2nd gear is also the fluid source for od but the engagement of the od in 2nd gear would also be an abnormal condition. im not talking about normal or abnormal operation im talking about the fact that the pcm is a parallel set of controls and can perform cclu during 3rd gear od on conditions if it so chooses. you dispute this. the fsm not only proves that it could happen hydraulically but that the pcm is adaptable and could perform cclu electronically under those conditions. your previously posted info is trash and repeatedly referring to it is referring to trash. again this is your means of diverting attention from the fact that you still havent found any proof that im wrong. you wouldnt know a fact if it bit you on the ass. yes insult intended. again this is your means of diverting attention from the fact that you still havent found any proof that im wrong. word games supplies ground and merely an input are the same fucking thing no they are not. a ground implies a constant condition while the switch is in that position which operates another piece of hardware in the circuit. input is used by mircoprocessors to perform certain functions. your postings are a jumble of contradictory info that satisfies nobody but you. again this is your means of diverting attention from the fact that you still havent found any proof that im wrong. when you push the button two contacts meet; how much more manual can it get physically moving a switch is manual. what the od on/off switch does it move yet another switch. thus since you cannot reach into the pcm and move the switch that actually sets the parameter that input is not manual. you could be elected president of the u.s. but that would be unlikely. what can happen and whats normal are two different things. typical subterfuge again this is your means of diverting attention from the fact that you still havent found any proof that im wrong. in maxspeak again this is your means of diverting attention from the fact that you still havent found any proof that im wrong. read it and weep. that single paragraph is death to your theories thats why you poo-poo it. the fact that the fsm transmission section on the 46/47re alone is more than 50 pages of information including bits of info proving that your assumptions are wrong is not poo-pooing anything its factual rebuttal whichyou are sorely lacking. the void is between your ears. again this is your means of diverting attention from the fact that you still havent found any proof that im wrong. thats not proof of what youre saying. show proof not mumbo jumbo. i have you have chosen to poo-poo it. again this is your means of diverting attention from the fact that you still havent found any proof that im wrong. typical distortion. ground for solenoids and ground for pcm circuits are two entirely different things. typical distortion. and yet in this same reply you claim that supplies ground and merely an input are the same fucking thing. now you claim the opposite. more mumbo jumbo i never said any such thing; youre the one who has brought special programming into the mix as a subterfuge. sorry no i havent. blame that on the engineers since they wrote the book and designed the pcm to have special programming in the form of adaptive logic. changed your original story huh. you have claimed from the gitgo that your trucks operation is as per the fsm and the fsm proves it now its could be programmed. no change in original story. since the p

From : dirtclod

thank you all for the information and advice. i took the truck to a highly reccomended local tranny shop and the owner diagnosed the tps was the culprit. the manual he showed me said it was the ecm however he had seen this problem before and it was the tps. he called the problem etching on the sensor. he ran a jumper wire from the tps directly to the pcm bypassing the ecm and the problem stopped. that is what the manual said to do to pinpoint the problem. now i am waiting on the new tps to come in. wow that little part is expensive but better than a rebuild !!! once again thank you all for sharing your knowledge with me. .

From : john kunkel

john kunkel wrote thats funny my fsm specifically states if the overdrive control switch is in the normal on position the clutch will engage after the shift to fourth.........if the control switch is in the off position the clutch will engage after the shift to third gear..... if your fsm states differently quote here and give a page reference. max dodge replied sec 21 pg. 319 first paragraph fifth sentence the converter clutch engages in third gear. pretty clear and is exactly what my truck does regardless of the position of the od on/off switch. of course it engages in 3rd i never said otherwise but it doesnt engage in 3rd if the od control switch is on. you arent quoting the entire paragraph just a selected sentence to bolster your argument. what does your fsm say in the description of operation converter clutch engagement; the entire paragraph not just one selected sentence below is a link to the unedited description of clutch operation http//pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg i have cc lu at approx 30-40mph in 3rd gear depending on throttle position. cc lu is an electronic function and is thus controlled by the ecm not hydraulics. as such the cc locks up when the ecm dictates. 21-323 3rd paragraph continued on 21-324 converter clutch engagement in third or fourth gear range is by sensor inputs to the pcm coolant temp engine rpm mph throttle position and map none of which are the od on/off switch. this is in direct contradiction to the next line which states what you have stated that the od on/off is what dictates the cc lu event. as usual you are purposely quoting out of context of course the pcm controls the lockup it also controls od but all of the correct sensor inputs wont allow a shift to od if the od switch is in the off position; things change with the switch position but you have avoided any direct quotes with the term overdrive control switch. given that the book confirms both of our statements but that my truck confirms my statement ill take reality over a contradictory statement in the fsm. is it ok if i dont depend on your obviously biased observations tc lockup can and does occur in either 3rd or 4th gears. never said otherwise the sequence in which the the lockup occurs depends on the control swotch position. no it depends on the pcm programming. no it depends entirely on control switch position as my direct quote from the fsm states. btw what is your source for the claim that the shift into od means the tc unlocks briefly is this a continuation of your perverted major pressure drop theory try actually reading the technical bulletins and youll see exactly what im talking about. that or come take a ride and i assure you youll feel the tc unlock od kick in and tc lu re-occur. how about referring to an actual quote from an actual technical bulletin rather than your usual generalizations. an invitation to travel 2500 miles for a ride is a hollow gesture from an equally hollow individual. .

From : max dodge

wow that little part is expensive but better than a rebuild !!! the apps tps on a cuimmins is about $400. been there done that. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author thank you all for the information and advice. i took the truck to a highly reccomended local tranny shop and the owner diagnosed the tps was the culprit. the manual he showed me said it was the ecm however he had seen this problem before and it was the tps. he called the problem etching on the sensor. he ran a jumper wire from the tps directly to the pcm bypassing the ecm and the problem stopped. that is what the manual said to do to pinpoint the problem. now i am waiting on the new tps to come in. wow that little part is expensive but better than a rebuild !!! once again thank you all for sharing your knowledge with me. .

From : max dodge

of course it engages in 3rd i never said otherwise but it doesnt engage in 3rd if the od control switch is on. the cc locks up in 3rd gear with the od switch in the on position whether you like it or not. you arent quoting the entire paragraph just a selected sentence to bolster your argument. false. i specifically noted the part that bolstered your argument. what does your fsm say in the description of operation converter clutch engagement; the entire paragraph not just one selected sentence pretty much what i said right here converter clutch engagement in third or fourth gear range is by sensor inputs to the pcm coolant temp engine rpm mph throttle position and map none of which are the od on/off switch. this is in direct contradiction to the next line which states what you have stated that the od on/off is what dictates the cc lu event. try reading what i said. i made note of the entire paragraph. below is a link to the unedited description of clutch operation http//pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg thats fantastic john now read the line directly above the red underline. says nothing about the od switch but does show where the pcm gets its parameters. i have cc lu at approx 30-40mph in 3rd gear depending on throttle position. cc lu is an electronic function and is thus controlled by the ecm not hydraulics. as such the cc locks up when the ecm dictates. 21-323 3rd paragraph continued on 21-324 converter clutch engagement in third or fourth gear range is by sensor inputs to the pcm coolant temp engine rpm mph throttle position and map none of which are the od on/off switch. this is in direct contradiction to the next line which states what you have stated that the od on/off is what dictates the cc lu event. as usual you are purposely quoting out of context a flat out lie since i purposely directed your attention to the line which you have highlighted in your lovely picture. of course the pcm controls the lockup it also controls od but all of the correct sensor inputs wont allow a shift to od if the od switch is in the off position; yup you say that and i used to believe it but ya know what my pcm thinks differently and anyone whod like proof is welcome to come see/feel/hear it happen. thus the line prior to your favorite line seems to be correct. things change with the switch position but you have avoided any direct quotes with the term overdrive control switch. again a lie i directed your attention right to the line you want so much attention on. given that the book confirms both of our statements but that my truck confirms my statement ill take reality over a contradictory statement in the fsm. is it ok if i dont depend on your obviously biased observations sure drop by ill show ya what my truck does. no it depends entirely on control switch position as my direct quote from the fsm states. false. try actually reading the technical bulletins and youll see exactly what im talking about. that or come take a ride and i assure you youll feel the tc unlock od kick in and tc lu re-occur. how about referring to an actual quote from an actual technical bulletin rather than your usual generalizations. http//dodgeram.info/tsb/2000/21-02-00.htm an invitation to travel 2500 miles for a ride is a hollow gesture from an equally hollow individual. send a representitive. until you can prove my truck is the only one that does this with od on i know that you are wrong. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author john kunkel wrote thats funny my fsm specifically states if the overdrive control switch is in the normal on position the clutch will engage after the shift to fourth.........if the control switch is in the off position the clutch will engage after the shift to third gear..... if your fsm states differently quote here and give a page reference. max dodge replied sec 21 pg. 319 first paragraph fifth sentence the converter clutch engages in third gear. pretty clear and is exactly what my truck does regardless of the position of the od on/off switch. of course it engages in 3rd i never said otherwise but it doesnt engage in 3rd if the od control switch is on. you arent quoting the entire paragraph just a selected sentence to bolster your argument. what does your fsm say in the description of operation converter clutch engagement; the entire paragraph not just one selected sentence below is a link to the unedited description of clutch operation http//pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg i have cc lu at approx 30-40mph in 3rd gear depending on throttle position. cc lu is an electronic function and is thus controlled by the ecm not hydraulics. as such the cc locks up when the ecm dictates. 21-323 3rd paragraph continued on 21-324 converter clutch engag

From : js

max dodge wrote wow that little part is expensive but better than a rebuild !!! the apps tps on a cuimmins is about $400. been there done that. what the bloody hell! did that come with some synthetic back end oil too i thought the $17 i paid for the holley tps for my 99 5.2 was entirely too much especially considering their first attempt only lasted about 80k miles... i should have saved my $17 toward a better cause like replacing the whole engine with something that sucks less 360 js .

From : max dodge

what the bloody hell! did that come with some synthetic back end oil too the apps comes with a huge bracket and has been calibrated to be positioned properly once installed. not saying its worth it just saying thats how they justify it. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote wow that little part is expensive but better than a rebuild !!! the apps tps on a cuimmins is about $400. been there done that. what the bloody hell! did that come with some synthetic back end oil too i thought the $17 i paid for the holley tps for my 99 5.2 was entirely too much especially considering their first attempt only lasted about 80k miles... i should have saved my $17 toward a better cause like replacing the whole engine with something that sucks less 360 js .

From : john kunkel

of course it engages in 3rd i never said otherwise but it doesnt engage in 3rd if the od control switch is on. the cc locks up in 3rd gear with the od switch in the on position whether you like it or not. not according to the fsm text that i provided a link to below. you love to claim that the fsm backs up your bogus arguements but when the fsm actually contradicts your claims you go into the double talk mode. below is a link to the unedited description of clutch operation http//pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg thats fantastic john now read the line directly above the red underline. says nothing about the od switch but does show where the pcm gets its parameters. youre pathetic read back in the thread i never argued the engagement parameters only the function of the control switch which you keep dancing around with your typical diversionary tactics. if you had a valid argument you wouldnt need to resort to your pathetic tactics. i have cc lu at approx 30-40mph in 3rd gear depending on throttle position. cc lu is an electronic function and is thus controlled by the ecm not hydraulics. as such the cc locks up when the ecm dictates. 21-323 3rd paragraph continued

From : marsh monster

thompson kf4drr-nospam@alltel.net writes i work for a living. thats how i do it. and no i dont live in a trailer....i live in a quite nice house brick at that. and except for the trucks and naturally the house everything i own is paid for. i work for a living too. my agi last year was a tad over $70k. no not setting the world on fire but not too bad either. wife doesnt work outside the home but all the kids are grown and gone. we do have one still in college which does at time put a strain on the budget. we do not carry any month-to-month balance on any of our credit cards. everything is fully paid for except the house. even there our house note is comparatively small at $820/mo including taxes & insurance. we have a credit score of 805. we of course can qualify for a new truck note at the best interest rates available credit score 805 = tier-one credit worthiness. the problem is i dont want to have to wind up living hand-to-mouth or paycheck to paycheck with no discretionary money left over just because were slaves to a freakin truck payment. ive not had a vehicle payment in the last 6 years so ive been out of the market for a while. when the dickens did the 3/4 and 1-ton ctd start fetching prices of $4045 thousand jesus christ! .

From : max dodge

in third or fourth gear range is by sensor inputs to the pcm coolant temp engine rpm mph throttle position and map none of which are the od on/off switch. this is in direct contradiction to the next line which states what you have stated that the od on/off is what dictates the cc lu event. as usual you are purposely quoting out of context a flat out lie since i purposely directed your attention to the line which you have highlighted in your lovely picture. the unhighlighted text in the pic is what you quoted above it is meaningless without the info on the control switch which i did highlight. things change with the switch position but you have avoided any direct quotes with the term overdrive control switch. again a lie i directed your attention right to the line you want so much attention on. youre the liar. refer to the line in this thread with date and time stamp where you said anything like that. given that the book confirms both of our statements but that my truck confirms my statement ill take reality over a contradictory statement in the fsm. is it ok if i dont depend on your obviously biased observations sure drop by ill show ya what my truck does see the reference to hollow gesture. im really not surprised that you feel the imagined shift sequence after all youre the same one who claims to feel the improved shift after accumulator spring removal; another impossible fantasy. no it depends entirely on control switch position as my direct quote from the fsm states. false. your reading skills are as lacking as your knowledge the underlined portion of the pic i posted clearly states the clutch can be engaged in third or fourth gear depending on overdrive control switch position. that combined with the highlighted portion clearly contradicts your claims. try actually reading the technical bulletins and youll see exactly what im talking about. that or come take a ride and i assure you youll feel the tc unlock od kick in and tc lu re-occur. how about referring to an actual quote from an actual technical bulletin rather than your usual generalizations. http//dodgeram.info/tsb/2000/21-02-00.htm atta boy scotty refer to a tsb that describes an abnormal condition. your original claim was that converter disengagenent at the upshift is a normal condition. an invitation to travel 2500 miles for a ride is a hollow gesture from an equally hollow individual. send a representitive. until you can prove my truck is the only one that does this with od on i know that you are wrong. ah the old budd cochrane rule huh disregard logic and proven data and believe your claims birds of a feather. . 222 318547 w22gg.1285$3i3.800@trnddc08 not according to the fsm text that i provided a link to below. you love to claim that the fsm backs up your bogus arguements but when the fsm actually contradicts your claims you go into the double talk mode. actually as i stated it does back up my argument no double talk about it. next my truck backs up my argument. i achieve 3rd gear lock up at about 32-35mph. ive checked the numbers and there is no way its in 4th gear. ill say it again ive seen it happen i dont give a damn what you have to say or the rhetoric you spew. anyone who would like to see it happen need only try it or come see for themselves. youre pathetic read back in the thread i never argued the engagement parameters only the function of the control switch which you keep dancing around with your typical diversionary tactics. if you had a valid argument you wouldnt need to resort to your pathetic tactics. my pathetic tactics are nothing when compared to your bluster when you are proven wrong. the unhighlighted text in the pic is what you quoted above it is meaningless without the info on the control switch which i did highlight. um wrong i specifically directed your attention to the line which you highlighted. see thats just more of your bluster. youre the liar. refer to the line in this thread with date and time stamp where you said anything like that. no problem john right here ------------- path nwrddc02.gnilink.net!cyclone2.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!spamkiller.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!trnddc06.posted!9a3338ba!not-for-mail from max dodge max340@verizon.net references 1148963334.950185.227310@38g2000cwa.googlegroups.com 5xreg.6310$o%3.278@trndny07 ws-dnq92smape-hzrvn-qg@comcast.com 1149014862.179616.162540@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com 473fg.9863$ho6.5550@trnddc07 v7ydnbo4imdvdodznz2dnuvzvodnz2d@comcast.com subject re 2000 dodge 2500 transmission problems lines 124 x-priority 3 x-msmail-priority normal x-reader microsoft outlook express 6.00.2900.2869 x-mimeole produced by microsoft mimeole v6.00.2900.2869 x-rfc2646 format=flowed; response message-id faofg.12000$vl2.1795@trnddc06 date wed 31 may 2006 214755 gmt nntp-posting-host

From : john kunkel

max dodge wrote in meesage actually as i stated it does back up my argument no double talk about it. next my truck backs up my argument. i achieve 3rd gear lock up at about 32-35mph. ive checked the numbers and there is no way its in 4th gear. ill say it again ive seen it happen i dont give a damn what you have to say or the rhetoric you spew. anyone who would like to see it happen need only try it or come see for themselves. ======== ======== kunkles right...... yer wrong. fact not fiction. max the proof is not in the link you 2 are referring to. maybe you should take the time diagnose the wording of the link with a non-biased approach. take it for what its stating and not what you want it to state. no where in the wording does it state that tcc applies in 3rd gear when the od function is enabled. no where! and...thats the claim your making. that the link is somehow supporting your statement that tcc applies in 3rd gear no matter what mode the buttton is commanding. read the link with an open mind max because the wording is not there to support your claim. now....... as to your gracious offer for a test ride to prove that your truck does apply th tcc no matter what mode the button is commanding......id love to take you up on it but its a monetary thing you know. me being in florida and all...having bills to pay..limited income...kids...$950 a month house nut........well you get the picture. if your truck is locking up in 3rd gear regardless of what position the mode button is commanding..id suggest you concern yourself with the fact that its highly possible something is amiss. you can perform googles till yer eyeballs glaze over and your never going to find anything to support your claim that the workings of how you state your truck applies the tcc is factory programmed shift strategy from dodge. nothing!! however if you subscribe to atra trni alldata or mod you will find documented factual evidence to support kunkles statements that tcc will not apply on a properly functioning tranny system in 3rd gear when the mode button is set to allow od. factnot fiction!! refer back to the above reference of goolgling............ if youll spend some time trying to reinforce your statements by searching the tranny type by nomenclature and symptom youre going to run across sites that will explain why the heat generation during tcc apply is a major problem with this family of trannies. dodge did not program tcc apply on 3rd gear with the mode set for od for a specific reason. the more often the convertor slips the more heat is generated and the faster the unit is going to fail. this tranny was not designed to last was not designed to perform in the applications were discussing but was designed to meet federal guidelines for fuel efficiency. which it does. but its also the weakest linkk in dodges cd applications. thats factnot fiction. tcc apply in 3rd gear with an anticipated next shift into od on cd thats going to basically stack shift from the factory on light to medium throttle accelleration is not going to happen because of factory programming because dodge....didnt want the extra heat being generated didnt want the engine to lug and never programmed it in. you can harp on all you want to about your particuler vehical. but the fact of the matter is youve already stated in open forum that you are going by what you are feeling. i suggest you go to a tranny shop get a free scan job on the system and ride with the tech. you will then see that your claims are disproven. fact...not fiction.! now...... as a final plea to get you to do your homework google................ i refer you to the glutunous availability of after market add-ons that are designed to apply tcc when you want it. again go for that free scan job and ride with the tranny tech. my modis my solus my mt2500......will all hook to a printer and spit out freeze frame data and event logs. so will theirs. i let folks ride with me and look at data all the time. no prob. worst case scenario...... youll then be able to post factuall evidence to support your claim and show me and kunkle to be stupid. wouldnt that be fun.!! lastly.............. and a bit off topic.......... id bet my job on me being right. fact not fiction!! you hear that fm..!!!!!!!! ^ ^ o o l o marsh sips his crownroyal . 222 318557 yjednrjpxo9rchzznz2dnekdnzydnz2d@comcast.com not according to the fsm text that i provided a link to below. you love to claim that the fsm backs up your bogus arguements but when the fsm actually contradicts your claims you go into the double talk mode. actually as i stated it does back up my argument no double talk about it. next my truck backs up my argument. i achieve 3rd gear lock up at about 32-35mph. ive checked the numbers and there is no way its in 4th gear.

From : max dodge

if your truck is locking up in 3rd gear regardless of what position the mode button is commanding..id suggest you concern yourself with the fact that its highly possible something is amiss. i suggested that years ago and found no proof of a problem and in fact found several supporting claims along with all of us being a bit surprised it worked that way. in fact one of the specific instances i can get lu in 3rd od on is when i accelerate slightly going up a slight grade instead of kick down i get lu. which would suggest that...... dodge did not program tcc apply on 3rd gear with the mode set for od for a specific reason. the more often the convertor slips the more heat is generated and the faster the unit is going to fail. .... your preceding statement is false. if dodge in fact wanted to lower trans temps and figured less tc slip time would be an asset then cc lu in 3rd gear would in fact do exactly that cut slip time and lower temps. as such your previous statement contradicts itself and proves that my slight acceleration inducing a cc lu would in fact do exactly what you claim the designers wanted it to do create less heat. you can harp on all you want to about your particuler vehical. but the fact of the matter is youve already stated in open forum that you are going by what you are feeling. no im going by what im seeing on the tach and speedometer. i get a drop of approx 100rpm after the 2-3 shift and before the 3-4 shift. its there and ive seen it for 7 years now. the trans has performed flawlessly and has displayed no heat issues whatsoever. small wonder since lu will create less heat than unlocked. no where in the wording does it state that tcc applies in 3rd gear when the od function is enabled. no where! does it state that what i have happening is impossible and/or abnormal no in fact it suggests just the opposite. further it suggests that od would occur lower than 40-50mph and we know thats not possible either right -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote in meesage actually as i stated it does back up my argument no double talk about it. next my truck backs up my argument. i achieve 3rd gear lock up at about 32-35mph. ive checked the numbers and there is no way its in 4th gear. ill say it again ive seen it happen i dont give a damn what you have to say or the rhetoric you spew. anyone who would like to see it happen need only try it or come see for themselves. ======== ======== kunkles right...... yer wrong. fact not fiction. max the proof is not in the link you 2 are referring to. maybe you should take the time diagnose the wording of the link with a non-biased approach. take it for what its stating and not what you want it to state. no where in the wording does it state that tcc applies in 3rd gear when the od function is enabled. no where! and...thats the claim your making. that the link is somehow supporting your statement that tcc applies in 3rd gear no matter what mode the buttton is commanding. read the link with an open mind max because the wording is not there to support your claim. now....... as to your gracious offer for a test ride to prove that your truck does apply th tcc no matter what mode the button is commanding......id love to take you up on it but its a monetary thing you know. me being in florida and all...having bills to pay..limited income...kids...$950 a month house nut........well you get the picture. if your truck is locking up in 3rd gear regardless of what position the mode button is commanding..id suggest you concern yourself with the fact that its highly possible something is amiss. you can perform googles till yer eyeballs glaze over and your never going to find anything to support your claim that the workings of how you state your truck applies the tcc is factory programmed shift strategy from dodge. nothing!! however if you subscribe to atra trni alldata or mod you will find documented factual evidence to support kunkles statements that tcc will not apply on a properly functioning tranny system in 3rd gear when the mode button is set to allow od. factnot fiction!! refer back to the above reference of goolgling............ if youll spend some time trying to reinforce your statements by searching the tranny type by nomenclature and symptom youre going to run across sites that will explain why the heat generation during tcc apply is a major problem with this family of trannies. dodge did not program tcc apply on 3rd gear with the mode set for od for a specific reason. the more often the convertor slips the more heat is generated and the faster the unit is going to fail. this tranny was not designed to last was not designed to perform in the applications were discussing but was designed to

From : max dodge

if you want to continue to make statements about the operation of an automatic transmission you would be wise to make the statements without claiming to have backup tech references that dont exist or totally refute your claims. sage advice from one who despite claiming to have proof has yet to offer anything but personal attack as rebuttal. try doing as you say. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author not according to the fsm text that i provided a link to below. you love to claim that the fsm backs up your bogus arguements but when the fsm actually contradicts your claims you go into the double talk mode. actually as i stated it does back up my argument no double talk about it. next my truck backs up my argument. i achieve 3rd gear lock up at about 32-35mph. ive checked the numbers and there is no way its in 4th gear. ill say it again ive seen it happen i dont give a damn what you have to say or the rhetoric you spew. anyone who would like to see it happen need only try it or come see for themselves. whether or not your particular truck performs as per the fsm is irrelevant what is relevant is your claim that the operation of your transmission is in accordance with the fsm. all of the lines of rhetoric boil down to these simple facts fact #1 my original post reads if the od switch is in the on position the converter wont lockup until after the 3-4 upshift. to which you replied with the following fsm and my truck disagree with both kunkle sic and the marsh mellow. so what youre saying there is that the lockup doesnt depend on the switch position and the fsm agrees with you but anybody who can read and comprehend the english language will see by the text in my provided link that regardless of sensor input the lockup does ultimately depend on the control switch and therefore the fsm is totally contradictory to your claim. by clearly stating that the fsm supports your contention you got caught again in your own bullshit and then spent a thousand words trying to spin in your favor the fact that you did get caught. fact #2 in your original post on this thread you clearly stated next the shift into od means the tc unlocks briefly and when challenged by me for backup you clearly stated try actually reading the technical bulletins and youll see exactly what im talking about. so again you claim that the tc unlocks at the shift and that this is normal operation and that technical bulletins will back you up but when actually pressed for a reference to back it up you provide a link to a tsb describing a fault which is not normal operation. again you got caught in your own bullshit and spent more words trying to backspin that. in the end bullshit is your stock and trade. if you want to continue to make statements about the operation of an automatic transmission you would be wise to make the statements without claiming to have backup tech references that dont exist or totally refute your claims. .

From : john kunkel

if you want to continue to make statements about the operation of an automatic transmission you would be wise to make the statements without claiming to have backup tech references that dont exist or totally refute your claims. sage advice from one who despite claiming to have proof has yet to offer anything but personal attack as rebuttal. try doing as you say. ill offer the same proof that i have offered all along a section from the fsm describing the operation of the converter clutch; the fsm description of normal operation completely refutes your claims that the fsm supports your version of normal operation. http//pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg the underlined sentence clearly states that the clutch operation is governed by the od control switch position which is in direct contradiction to your claim that switch position doesnt matter. the highlighted section explains the sequence of application depending on switch position and this completely refutes your claim that the fsm supports your contention that clutch application is always after the 2-3 upshift. regardless of your accusations and diversionary tactics the proof is right there for all to read; the wording is unambiguous and clearly proves that your rhetoric throughout this thread has not been supported by any credible evidence. .

From : max dodge

regardless of your accusations and diversionary tactics the proof is right there for all to read; the wording is unambiguous and clearly proves that your rhetoric throughout this thread has not been supported by any credible evidence. except that the line immediately prior to your highlighted info shows that the cc is contolled by the pcm using several parameters that do not include the od switch. my truck confirms this as correct. all this despite your claims. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author if you want to continue to make statements about the operation of an automatic transmission you would be wise to make the statements without claiming to have backup tech references that dont exist or totally refute your claims. sage advice from one who despite claiming to have proof has yet to offer anything but personal attack as rebuttal. try doing as you say. ill offer the same proof that i have offered all along a section from the fsm describing the operation of the converter clutch; the fsm description of normal operation completely refutes your claims that the fsm supports your version of normal operation. http//pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg the underlined sentence clearly states that the clutch operation is governed by the od control switch position which is in direct contradiction to your claim that switch position doesnt matter. the highlighted section explains the sequence of application depending on switch position and this completely refutes your claim that the fsm supports your contention that clutch application is always after the 2-3 upshift. regardless of your accusations and diversionary tactics the proof is right there for all to read; the wording is unambiguous and clearly proves that your rhetoric throughout this thread has not been supported by any credible evidence. .

From : marsh monster

max dodge wrote marshmonster wrote if your truck is locking up in 3rd gear regardless of what position the mode button is commanding..id suggest you concern yourself with the fact that its highly possible something is amiss. max wrote i suggested that years ago and found no proof of a problem and in fact found several supporting claims along with all of us being a bit surprised it worked that way. in fact one of the specific instances i can get lu in 3rd od on is when i accelerate slightly going up a slight grade instead of kick down i get lu. which would suggest that...... marsh wrote dodge did not program tcc apply on 3rd gear with the mode set for od for a specific reason. the more often the convertor slips the more heat is generated and the faster the unit is going to fail. max wrote ... your preceding statement is false. if dodge in fact wanted to lower trans temps and figured less tc slip time would be an asset then cc lu in 3rd gear would in fact do exactly that cut slip time and lower temps. as such your previous statement contradicts itself and proves that my slight acceleration inducing a cc lu would in fact do exactly what you claim the designers wanted it to do create less heat. marsh wrote you can harp on all you want to about your particuler vehical. but the fact of the matter is youve already stated in open forum that you are going by what you are feeling. max wrote no im going by what im seeing on the tach and speedometer. i get a drop of approx 100rpm after the 2-3 shift and before the 3-4 shift. its there and ive seen it for 7 years now. the trans has performed flawlessly and has displayed no heat issues whatsoever. small wonder since lu will create less heat than unlocked. marsh wrote no where in the wording does it state that tcc applies in 3rd gear when the od function is enabled. no where! max wrote does it state that what i have happening is impossible and/or abnormal no in fact it suggests just the opposite. further it suggests that od would occur lower than 40-50mph and we know thats not possible either right -- ========= ========= max in response to your last paragraph............... no! if doesnt make a clarified statement to that effect true. however concerning the way you say you can get lockup to kick in instead of the unit downshifting sounds exactly like an aftermarket add-on computer thats programed to do exactly that. now no one can contridict you on what your posting as to the truck doing it for 7 years. its your truck you drive it you seem to know by however you do that lockup is kicking in on 3rd gear. so....im not going to try to convince you it isnt. i dont know. i do know that its not supposed to by all the tech info ive come across and by the many diagnostic scan drives ive done on the system. with that said.......... check yer mail if the addy is good. mm sips his crownroyal .

From : marsh monster

========= ========= max in response to your last paragraph............... no! if doesnt make a clarified statement to that effect true. however concerning the way you say you can get lockup to kick in instead of the unit downshifting sounds exactly like an aftermarket add-on computer thats programed to do exactly that. now no one can contridict you on what your posting as to the truck doing it for 7 years. its your truck you drive it you seem to know by however you do that lockup is kicking in on 3rd gear. so....im not going to try to convince you it isnt. i dont know. i do know that its not supposed to by all the tech info ive come across and by the many diagnostic scan drives ive done on the system. with that said.......... check yer mail if the addy is good. mm sips his crownroyal ======== ======== addendum max with the above said im posting on my experience with scanning these vehicals and the atra mod and alldatat literature thats available to me. but...... you say your truck has been checked over the years for several drivability issues and the lockup concern was discussed with techs at those times who told you that the vehical was behaving normally. ill take your word for it. you say you know others with the same vehical and theirs are behaving the same way with no problems over the years. ill take your word for it. but........ i will be paying a little closer attention to the data pids on the ole modis to see if maybe what ive been wanting to see............... isnt what is actually happening and im going to go check in with the atra site and get some input from all knowing minds. any whooooooo....... its curious that someone else with the same set up hasnt posted a pro or con on this subject. regardless of what the alldata lit that i sent you stated it seems your vehical does what you say it does with no adverse affects and seemingly because of normal operation. a good topic......... one of interest to me because i like to think im on top of my game in this field and may be wrong....... but..... not willing to admit it......yet.............. ^ ^ * 0 l o mm pours kunkle a crown-n-coke......and passes max the mushroom tea .

From : max dodge

however concerning the way you say you can get lockup to kick in instead of the unit downshifting sounds exactly like an aftermarket add-on computer thats programed to do exactly that. this truck is sadly bone stock. no computers to enhance performance at all for either the diesel or the trans. now no one can contridict you on what your posting as to the truck doing it for 7 years. its your truck you drive it you seem to know by however you do that lockup is kicking in on 3rd gear. i know because i can read a tach a speedometer and i can count. moderately heavy acceleration gets me tcc lu at about 45-50mph and od at 60mph with tcc lu again at 61-62mph. so....im not going to try to convince you it isnt. i dont know. i do know that its not supposed to by all the tech info ive come across and by the many diagnostic scan drives ive done on the system. everything ive read lacks any specific claim that tcc lu in 3rd with od on should not occur. since tcc lu is fed by second gear hydraulics if this were truly a failure the tcc would be able to lu in 2nd. it does not. it also unlocks for the 3-4 shift. the truck does this fairly smoothly obviously its not like a chrysler car and its not any more abrupt than normal and it is not bone jarring nor does the truck hesitate or balk. given that it occurs in a variation of speeds and rpms that are not only predictable they occur at teh same points in travel and throttle but coincide with the shift events that are claimed to be normal and all of the shifts and tcc lu events occur in accordance to tv pressure it would be hard to explain it as abnormal. -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author max dodge wrote marshmonster wrote if your truck is locking up in 3rd gear regardless of what position the mode button is commanding..id suggest you concern yourself with the fact that its highly possible something is amiss. max wrote i suggested that years ago and found no proof of a problem and in fact found several supporting claims along with all of us being a bit surprised it worked that way. in fact one of the specific instances i can get lu in 3rd od on is when i accelerate slightly going up a slight grade instead of kick down i get lu. which would suggest that...... marsh wrote dodge did not program tcc apply on 3rd gear with the mode set for od for a specific reason. the more often the convertor slips the more heat is generated and the faster the unit is going to fail. max wrote ... your preceding statement is false. if dodge in fact wanted to lower trans temps and figured less tc slip time would be an asset then cc lu in 3rd gear would in fact do exactly that cut slip time and lower temps. as such your previous statement contradicts itself and proves that my slight acceleration inducing a cc lu would in fact do exactly what you claim the designers wanted it to do create less heat. marsh wrote you can harp on all you want to about your particuler vehical. but the fact of the matter is youve already stated in open forum that you are going by what you are feeling. max wrote no im going by what im seeing on the tach and speedometer. i get a drop of approx 100rpm after the 2-3 shift and before the 3-4 shift. its there and ive seen it for 7 years now. the trans has performed flawlessly and has displayed no heat issues whatsoever. small wonder since lu will create less heat than unlocked. marsh wrote no where in the wording does it state that tcc applies in 3rd gear when the od function is enabled. no where! max wrote does it state that what i have happening is impossible and/or abnormal no in fact it suggests just the opposite. further it suggests that od would occur lower than 40-50mph and we know thats not possible either right -- ========= ========= max in response to your last paragraph............... no! if doesnt make a clarified statement to that effect true. however concerning the way you say you can get lockup to kick in instead of the unit downshifting sounds exactly like an aftermarket add-on computer thats programed to do exactly that. now no one can contridict you on what your posting as to the truck doing it for 7 years. its your truck you drive it you seem to know by however you do that lockup is kicking in on 3rd gear. so....im not going to try to convince you it isnt. i dont know. i do know that its not supposed to by all the tech info ive come across and by the many diagnostic scan drives ive done on the system. with that said.......... check yer mail if the addy is good. mm sips his crownroyal .

From : john kunkel

everything ive read lacks any specific claim that tcc lu in 3rd with od on should not occur. well you better bone up on your reading skills the enclosed section of the fsm clearly states the normal modes of operation and it is unambiguous. http//pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg if engagement in 3rd were a normal condition the text would make no mention of the control switch position. .

From : john kunkel

regardless of your accusations and diversionary tactics the proof is right there for all to read; the wording is unambiguous and clearly proves that your rhetoric throughout this thread has not been supported by any credible evidence. except that the line immediately prior to your highlighted info shows that the cc is contolled by the pcm using several parameters that do not include the od switch. my truck confirms this as correct. all this despite your claims. again your interpretive skills are as lacking as your general knowledge. http//pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg you place too much emphasis on the mention of the sensor parameters and pcm these in no way eliminate the function of the od control switch; even if all of the pcm inputs say lockup the position of the control switch determines whether or not lockup will occur. this is clearly stated in the highlighted paragraph. the fact that the description of the sensor/pcm functions precedes mention of the switch does not remotely imply that the sensor functions are seperate from or override the switch position. if the tcc lu was independent of the control switch there would be no mention of the switch position since the primary funcrtion of the control switch is to control the od function. the simple fact that the fsm describes the function of the switch in relation to the tcc proves that the switch position is the determining factor in tcc lu. .

From : max dodge

if engagement in 3rd were a normal condition the text would make no mention of the control switch position. if engagement of cc in 3rd were abnormal id have a p code. i dont. id have 0720 indicating a low spd sensor rpm since tc slip would be nil. id have 0743 indicating tcc solenoid/trans relay circuits either open or shorted. id have 0783 possibly indicating an inability to complete 3-4 shift. i have none of these. there is no p code for abnormal lock up or even 3rd gear lock up. do tell if its such a problem why do i have no codes -- max there are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty soap ballot jury and ammo. please use in that order. -ed howdershelt author everything ive read lacks any specific claim that tcc lu in 3rd with od on should not occur. well you better bone up on your reading skills the enclosed section of the fsm clearly states the normal modes of operation and it is unambiguous. http//pro.imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/356691.jpg if engagement in 3rd were a normal condition the text would make no mention of the control switch position. .